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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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10201
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Low Journalism
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Adrian Martin wrote:
> > Dear friends - Here is an alarming 'opinion piece'
> > from an Australian
> > newspaper - the writer is an ex-leftie from the 60s,
> > and also a former film
> > critic (!), now the editor of a popular right-wing
> > magazine and prominent
> > conservative spokesman.
And of course he quotes Hitchens, who I would've thought would be
hiding in a hole somewhere by now, along with his "freedom fighting"
friend Chalabi. Among the many factual errors: We could just as
easily be said to have gotten film noir from France, where an early
practitioner was Yves Allegret, a (gasp!) communist, but in any case
European emigres contributed enormously to the forging of the genre
here.
This is also a sample of what happens when you write enough opinion
pieces for long enough - you run out of information and inspiration,
and only the opinions remain, like Bergman's famous image of the
empty snakeskin animated by ants. The citing of Truffaut's Fahrenheit
451 as an anti-American film (directed by a wildly pro-American
filmmaker from a book by a rather conservative Angeleno who doesn't
even drive a car, which Mel Gibson wants to redo) is a classic
example of the kind of things pundits say when they're running on
empty.
Todd McCarthy's negative review of the Moore film in Variety, by the
way, has resulted in an ass-covering editorial praising Moore and
trashing Disney for pulling out by...Peter Bart (who probably ordered
up the negative review in the first place, per a friend familiar with
the ways of the paper).
10202
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:30pm
Subject: Re: These Are the Damned, SF Reader
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Just saw my two favorite Loseys (so far), TIME WITHOUT PITY and
THESE
> > ARE THE DAMNED. Second viewing for the latter, thankfully since I
> > didn't quite "get" it the first time around.
>
> By the way, for New Yorkers who just saw THESE ARE THE DAMNED, I
have an
> article on it in Gregg Rickman's new SCIENCE FICTION FILM READER.
The
> article is also online at:
>
> http://www.panix.com/~sallitt/damned.html
>
> Several other a_film_by members have articles in Gregg's book -
Chris
> Fujiwara on CREATION OF THE HUMANOIDS, Bill Krohn on Joe Dante's
> EXPLORERS, and Jonathan Rosenbaum on A.I. - Dan
Also great: Blake Lucas's meditation on study of Universal scifi
films of the 50s.
10203
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Drums and Canons
> We call "commercial", with a pejorative meaning, what we
> consider "bad" art. But the reality is that all art is to some extent
> at least commercial.
But I don't see a need to discard the concept, just because it's not
black-and-white. Some films are sold to billions, others to thousands.
Some generate big industries, and some small ones. And industries
tend to set rules that the viewer can perceive operating in films to a
greater or lesser degree - so that we sometimes perceive even a homemade
film as "commercial" because it is following many of the rules of a
dominant film industry.
I don't think commercial means bad, but I think there's a meaningful
concept there. - Dan
10204
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: Drums and Canons
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > Yes of course. But what is commercial art? Is
> there such a
> thing as non-commercial art? The artist is always
> selling something.
> The writer wants to be published, the painter to be
> exhibited, the
> composer to be performed -- and they all want their
> stuff to be
> recognized in the form of at least some degree of
> financial gain.
> Isn't that commerce?
>
Yes, but there's commerce and there's COMMERCE. "Shrek
2" is about nothing other than getting butts in
seats."Looney Tunes Back in Action" is a commercial
"failure" for its inability to get butts in seats. As
a work of art it's sublime.
__________________________________
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10205
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:38pm
Subject: Korean cinema
> And what about A TALE OF TWO SISTERS, a film I forgot to mention in
> my Korean honor roll? This movie is like the last 20 minutes of
> MULHOLLAND DR. stretched out over 2 hrs, and yet it too was a big hit
> in Korea. What is it about Korean audiences that they embrace such
> challenging and artistically courageous films?
I skipped this one because I wasn't wild about the director's earlier
THE FOUL KING. Did you like it a lot?
Another Korean director who interests me is Jin-ho Hur (or is it Hur
Jin-ho?), who did CHRISTMAS IN AUGUST and ONE FINE SPRING DAY. He's not
free of sentimentality, but there's definitely an interesting
sensibility there. - Dan
10206
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
we should acknowledge that the auteurist world
> view was influenced by other things besides aesthetics. - Dan
Which made it a sitting duck for critiquing by the Daney generation
when they swung back to the left. And it's true if you look at
Bazin's much criticized discussion of Land without Bread that he
totally de-politicizes the film with a religious reading - which of
course isn't an a-political move at all. Cards on the table, that's
my attitude when it comes to politics in film criticism, but don't
let it blur your vision of the object.
Luc Moullet's criticism was always a great example of the kind of
lucidity I'm advocating. That doesn't mean he was infallible - just
lucid, and not brain-dead, as so many leftwing film critics were and
are. Anyway, Adrian has just given us a sterling example from the
right, and there's always Michael Medved, lest we think these sins
are only committed at one end of the spectrum.
10207
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:42pm
Subject: Re: Oasis, Hong, Korean cinema
It's remarkable that a film that deals with sex
> the way it does was a commercial hit in Korea -- I can't imagine
such
> a film being successful in the states, unless it were given the
> tricked-up, soft-porn Adrian Lyne treatment.
From what I saw when Charles Tesson organized the first big Korean
festival in Paris in 1999, sex is the commercial engine of that New
Wave, and totally unabashed portrayal thereof is one of its
characteristics. That's probably what is keeping the lid on
distribution of these films here, which is a shame.
10208
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
the reality is that all art is to some extent
> at least commercial. The artist produces for a market. Very few
> artists (and even fewer -- if any -- great ones ) produce just for
> themselves without any desire of public exposure or financial gain.
> How many films can truly be said not to be commercial?
Vincent Gallo is a hell of a lot richer from his paintings than he
ever will be from his films. Monte Hellman's manager told me he has
250,000 a year tax-free from municipal bonds where he invested his
80s art earnings. Same remark applies to Julian Schnabel. That's why
these guys can afford to make films! Come to think of it, that's how
Jean Renoir could afford to make films when the going got rough -
he'd just sell one his father's paintings. So I agree, J-P, the
distinction is a non-distinction.
10209
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > > Yes of course. But what is commercial art? Is
> > there such a
> > thing as non-commercial art? The artist is always
> > selling something.
> > The writer wants to be published, the painter to be
> > exhibited, the
> > composer to be performed -- and they all want their
> > stuff to be
> > recognized in the form of at least some degree of
> > financial gain.
> > Isn't that commerce?
> >
> Yes, but there's commerce and there's COMMERCE. "Shrek
> 2" is about nothing other than getting butts in
> seats."Looney Tunes Back in Action" is a commercial
> "failure" for its inability to get butts in seats. As
> a work of art it's sublime.
>
>
Yes, but you don't clarify a concept by just writing the same word
in CAPS. Both "Shrek 2" and "LTBIA" are commercial art. The
difference is that you despise the former and admire the latter.
I couldn't bring myself to see the original "Shrek" -- I found the
trailer and everything I saw/read/heard about the movie repulsive, so
I'm not likely to see #2. I think Looney Tunes Back... is a work of
art indeed but I see nothing sublime about it, except perhaps its
undeniable ambition. Its over-the-topness is exhausting and
ultimately sad -- made me long for the real stuff.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
10210
From:
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Oasis, Hong, Korean cinema
I'll second (or is it third?) the honors for TALE
OF TWO SISTERS. One of my favorite moments in a
theater all year was hearing a room full of
people inhale as one during a particularly tense
moment. It's quite possibly incomprehensible (or
at least impossible to fully understand), but its
ghost logic is so enthralling and strange that I
happily stopped trying to add up the pieces. (I
didn't buy the similar argument when applied to
MULHOLLAND DR., which just seemed haphazard and
sloppy.) GOOD LAWYER'S WIFE didn't fully coalesce
for me -- the main husband-wife pair are already
so disconnected it's hard to feel any sense of
loss as they drift further apart, and the
allusions to the uncovering of mass graves
(unearthing the hidden past, etc.) were promising
but somewhat inconclusive -- but absolutely agree
on Moon's performance. The film's use of nudity
was forthright but never salacious, which does
sadly seem almost impossible for American
directors to even achieve, let alone score a
commercial success with.
Sam
> From: "Kevin Lee"
>
>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>> Just saw Moon So-ri—recovered from her Oasis exertions—in
>> another commanding and committed performance as a woman
>> exploring her sexual options in Im Sang-soo's very frank A Good
>> Lawyer's Wife, although the director ultimately seemed to borrow
>> too much (or not enough) from Kieslowski's "sixth commandment"
>> story in The Decalogue, the one about the woman having an affair
>> with the teen voyeur next door.
>
>Judging from GOOD LAWYER'S WIFE and OASIS, I'd say Moon So-ri is one
>of the most fascinating physical actresses around today. She has a
>presence that is electric. Her nude scenes in GOOD LAWYER'S WIFE
>have a live-wire kind of sexiness, a raw physicality that is quite
>bracing to behold. It's remarkable that a film that deals with sex
>the way it does was a commercial hit in Korea -- I can't imagine such
>a film being successful in the states, unless it were given the
>tricked-up, soft-porn Adrian Lyne treatment.
>
>And what about A TALE OF TWO SISTERS, a film I forgot to mention in
>my Korean honor roll? This movie is like the last 20 minutes of
>MULHOLLAND DR. stretched out over 2 hrs, and yet it too was a big hit
>in Korea. What is it about Korean audiences that they embrace such
>challenging and artistically courageous films?
10211
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Drums and Canons
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
I think Looney Tunes
> Back... is a work of
> art indeed but I see nothing sublime about it,
> except perhaps its
> undeniable ambition. Its over-the-topness is
> exhausting and
> ultimately sad -- made me long for the real stuff.
> >
Well leveles of relative sublimity can be argued from
here to the moon. What's important is that it
qualifies as a serious piece film craft rather than a
mere marketing gimmick.
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10212
From:
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
"Commercial Films":
These do not depend on the "motives" of directors, or their goals for the film. They refer to a production system.
Films made in studios in Hollywood, Paris, Rome, London, Tokyo, etc. are typically considered "commercial films".
Films made by Brakhage, Jordan Belson, Anger, etc are not "commercial films".
Minnelli's "The Pirate" (commercial) was made at MGM, and financed like other MGM films. Then it was shown in theaters for cash admissions, then eventually
licensed for TV and then video and DVD.
Brakhage's "Dog Star Man" (non-commercial) was made by foundation grant money, funds raised from Brakhage's day jobs, etc. Then it was mainly shown in
university auditoriums, Anthology Film Archives, etc.
There is a third large "production system": films made by state studios in Communist countries. These include the main works of Eisenstein, Pudovkin, Jansco,
most of Tarkovsky, etc.
This three way split hardly includes all of cinema. Where do TV works made for US Public TV or the BBC fit? They don't really...
And "independent films" such as Cassavetes, Jarmusch etc also are ambiguously placed.
Still, the distinction of commercial cinema, Communist cinema and independent Brakhage-style filming covers a vast body of cinema.
On the "Masters of Cinema" web site, one reads that "Au Hasard, Balthazar" was made under the commercial filmmaking system. The producer raised money in a
standard commercial way, Bresson filmed it using studio technicians, it was shown in cinemas, and made a modest box office profit. Enough so that the
producer was able to finance "Mouchette", which was also a conventional commercial production.
This has nothing to do with Bresson's motives for making the films, his artistry, etc. It describes how the films were financed and marketed.
Mike Grost
10213
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:43pm
Subject: Re: Korean cinema
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Just saw Moon So-ri—recovered from her Oasis exertions—in
> > another commanding and committed performance as a woman
> > exploring her sexual options in Im Sang-soo's very frank A Good
> > Lawyer's Wife
>
> What did you think of it? I walked out on it at Toronto - I
wasn't
> disgusted, but I didn't have a good feeling about the direction,
and
> there was a competing screening.
What I liked about A Good Lawyer's Wife was largely Moon
So-ri's performance, depicting a generous, open (even bemused)
sexuality -- an appealing physical model, no matter one's
orientation -– but also offhandedly showing her competence as
an adult, especially when she cleans up the messy deathbed of
her father-in-law without complaint (and without directorial
emphasis). The women in the film seem to assert their freedom
to use their bodies as they wish, although I'm not sure
whether the film is reducible to a blow against the
patriarchy (or at least against males who don't do their share of
the heavy lifting in a relationship). Certainly the end shows the
male protagonist rejected by his wife AND his mistress AND his
mother, all of whom have turned to men more suitable to their needs.
Actually, I'm not surprised this was a popular hit in Korea since
the message would seem attractive to women while the male viewers
could identify with the more acceptable men and/or enjoy the (non-
full-frontal) physical display. Still, the film does not seem
formulaic or pandering to commercial values, but I'm still uneasy
about whether the film is actually speaking to larger issues than
gender relations.
>
> > especially for those who
> > appreciated the director's colorful and unsparingly tough
> > Chunhyang and Chihwaseon.
>
> Seems that auteurist opinion is divided on Im Kwon-Taek. I didn't
enjoy
> CHUNHYANG at all, but I know a lot of people, including Dave Kehr,
went
> for it big time. - Dan
What I like about Chunhyang is that it takes the stuff of fairy
tales (the prince and the commoner), with appealing young lovers
like puppy dogs in impossibly beautiful tableaux, but then subjects
them to the harsh realities of the feudal system, which further
remind us of our own society's class prejudices and greed for
power. As the film proceeds, the inserts of the pansori
performance become more frequent, raising the emotional
temperature and rhythms but also giving perspective to the
tragedy. I wouldn't call this cinematic sadism, though; to
me the innocent beauty of the romance and the idyllic
settings are the best way to appreciate the full cruelty of the
social and economic strictures that destroy the lovers. This somehow
reminds me of Max Ophuls, whose films twist the knife by showing how
even the wealthiest and most privileged people cannot escape their
social system and the imperfections of humanity. What was it that
turned you off in Chunhyang?
--Robert Keser
10214
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 7:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Low Journalism
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Todd McCarthy's negative review of the Moore film in
> Variety, by the
> way, has resulted in an ass-covering editorial
> praising Moore and
> trashing Disney for pulling out by...Peter Bart (who
> probably ordered
> up the negative review in the first place, per a
> friend familiar with
> the ways of the paper).
>
Absolutely fascinating. Just goes to show that the
courage of Bart's convictions evaporates once finances
are at stake.
As for Todd I for one was taken aback by his trashing
of "Elephant" last year. But I suspect that in late
middle-age aesthetic judgement has been put aside in
favor of class issues. Moore is of course "White
Trash" (like the Clintons), and Gus is -- worst of all
-- a "Class Traitor." He and Todd are similarly
stratified on the social ladder. But Gus' penchant for
rent boys and drug addicts "just won't do" as those of
his class are wont to mutter discreetly under their
breaths.
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10215
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Korean cinema
re TALE OF TWO SISTERS -- At first I found the set-up a bit cardboard
but with each unexpected twist and turn in the narrative, I was drawn
in. I don't know if I agree with Sam that there's more to this
formalist loop-de-loop than in MULHOLLAND... perhaps because the
film's story is less digressive than Lynch's effort and more focused
on this girl's fragmented psyche as manifested by an evil stepmother,
an enigmatic father and a possibly murdered sister, the effect feels
more concentrated and potent. I might actually like it more than
Bergman's PERSONA.
Of course the best girl-on-girl-lost-in-the-cinematic-haunted-house
adventure movie of all would be CELINE AND JULIE GO BOATING, if only
because it's the only one that doesn't forget to have a sense of
humor with what it's doing.
Hur Jin-ho is sweet and as you say sentimental and yes he does have a
sensitivity to mood that is uncommon. I've only seen ONE FINE SPRING
DAY -- the thing that kept me from embracing this was that I didn't
see the sound motif being developed over the course of the film.
Aside from that it was a sweet (if predictable) romantic melodrama.
Has anyone else seen TAKE CARE OF MY CAT? It's my favorite of these
recent Korean films -- there was a streak of films I had seen where I
was developing the apprehension that Korean cinema was the most
misogynistic in the world, but this film undid that suspicion quite
handily.
Kevin
10216
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31pm
Subject: Re: Korean cinema
>Has anyone else seen TAKE CARE OF MY CAT? It's my favorite of these
>recent Korean films -- there was a streak of films I had seen where I
>was developing the apprehension that Korean cinema was the most
>misogynistic in the world, but this film undid that suspicion quite
>handily.
I agree, Kevin, it was one of my favorite movies from a couple years
ago. The fact that it was directed by a woman must've certainly
contributed to its well-observed female characters.
By the way, have you (or anyone else) seen Pak Chan-wook's "OId Boy"?
Doug
10217
From: Brian Darr
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:05am
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
> One of the chief criticisms of SCHINDLER'S LIST is that it's about
> Schindler's victory, not the unspeakable failure of humanity that is
> the Holocaust. It seems worth mentioning that the film is aware of
> this, explicitly aware of this.
Interesting post and interesting point, Jaime. I haven't seen
Spielberg's film in several years, but it seems that a number of
films I've seen recently contain "vaccinations" against criticism.
That is, a scene or a plot detail that can be taken as a self-
inflicted barb that pre-empts critical attacks on the film, as if a
little self-criticism in the context of the film might innoculate it
against "harmful agents" from another context (film critics,
discerning moviegoers, etc.).
Two examples that come immediately to mind are DOGVILLE, an arrogant
film that includes a speech warning of the dangers of arrogance, and
SILK STOCKINGS, a musical adaptation of a classic (NINOTCHKA) that
gets laughs out of the ludicrousness of making a musical adaptation
of an even more hallowed classic ("War and Peace").
I can't decide if these "vaccinations" are fully conscious and
cynical, or unconscious and interesting, or somewhere in between. My
instincts tell me to like DOGVILLE more, not less, because of its
acknowledgement of its own arrogance. But I'm not sure what road
that takes me down, yet. Does it mean I have to like DEMOLITION
MAN's blatant product placements because they're poked fun at?
I suppose one word for it would be hypocrisy. Perhaps that's why,
conscious or not, these "vaccinations" often fail to prevent critics
from attacking Speilberg, Von Trier, and Mamoulian at what they see
as their "weak points".
-Brian
10218
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:48am
Subject: Chunhyang
> What I like about Chunhyang is that it takes the stuff of fairy
> tales (the prince and the commoner), with appealing young lovers
> like puppy dogs in impossibly beautiful tableaux, but then subjects
> them to the harsh realities of the feudal system, which further
> remind us of our own society's class prejudices and greed for
> power. As the film proceeds, the inserts of the pansori
> performance become more frequent, raising the emotional
> temperature and rhythms but also giving perspective to the
> tragedy. I wouldn't call this cinematic sadism, though; to
> me the innocent beauty of the romance and the idyllic
> settings are the best way to appreciate the full cruelty of the
> social and economic strictures that destroy the lovers. This somehow
> reminds me of Max Ophuls, whose films twist the knife by showing how
> even the wealthiest and most privileged people cannot escape their
> social system and the imperfections of humanity. What was it that
> turned you off in Chunhyang?
I didn't think it was sadistic or anything like that, but I just felt
that there was something conventional and unchallenging about the
performances and the emotional flow of the narrative. - Dan
10219
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:55am
Subject: Re: Re: Korean cinema
> Hur Jin-ho is sweet and as you say sentimental and yes he does have a
> sensitivity to mood that is uncommon. I've only seen ONE FINE SPRING
> DAY -- the thing that kept me from embracing this was that I didn't
> see the sound motif being developed over the course of the film.
> Aside from that it was a sweet (if predictable) romantic melodrama.
Though not a great film, CHRISTMAS IS AUGUST is clearly my favorite of
the two. I liked things in ONE FINE SPRING DAY, but I don't think I
would have noted it if I hadn't first liked CHRISTMAS.
> Has anyone else seen TAKE CARE OF MY CAT?
I have, but I had a fairly moderate reaction to it. It certainly
interested me, but I remember feeling that it didn't deliver on its
promise in some way. - Dan
10220
From: iangjohnston
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:14am
Subject: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer ou America
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> Pardon my French, but Tartan's new American distribution company,
> Tartan USA, will launch August 27 with the release of Catherine
> Breillat's "Anatomy of Hell".
>
> Once again I would like to point out, that she is incredible and
> that this, in my opinion, is her greatest and more defining work
as
> an auteur.
>
> Henri
Henri(k): Your reaction to ANATOMIE is a lot more enthusiastic than
any of the reviews I've read so far. How does it relate to/compare
with her other work? I'm guessing that it tends more to the
abstraction of ROMANCE rather than the greater naturalism of PARFAIT
AMOUR! and A MA SOEUR!, both of which I personally prefer.
And any thoughts on SEX IS COMEDY? It seems like the only way I'm
going to see this is to buy the DVD - worth it?
10221
From: iangjohnston
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:23am
Subject: Re: Gilded Excesses
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> Actually, I noted a fairly recent piece in POSITIF on 'humour in
Bresson' -
> a critical breakthrough!!
>
> Adrian
I always thought the prime case being FOUR NIGHTS OF A DREAMER:
Jacques following girls in the street, the visit of his artist
friend, the film premiere, playing Marthe's name on his tape
recorder on the bus - it's all meant to play as a comedy. A very
Bressonian comedy of course, but still funny in its wry, dry way.
10222
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:22am
Subject: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "iangjohnston" wrote:
> Henri(k): Your reaction to ANATOMIE is a lot more enthusiastic than
> any of the reviews I've read so far. How does it relate to/compare
> with her other work? I'm guessing that it tends more to the
> abstraction of ROMANCE rather than the greater naturalism of
PARFAIT
> AMOUR! and A MA SOEUR!, both of which I personally prefer.
>
> And any thoughts on SEX IS COMEDY? It seems like the only way I'm
> going to see this is to buy the DVD - worth it?
"Anatomie de l'enfer" is far more abstrat than "Romance", it is
lacanian, surreal and deconstructed sexuality. It is her last film
about the female sexuality, at least so she said. I saw it at the
world premiere and there were walkouts after already a few minutes
and the majority of those who stayed couldn't leave fast enough once
it was over. Speaking with my friends the next day, they hated the
film simply because of the things that in my opinion makes Breillat
so great. Either one gets her or one hates her. She seems to polarize
her viewers.
Originally Breillat wanted to adapt Marguerite Duras's "La Maladie de
la Mort" but was refused the rights. A few years went by and she
wrote her own story, which reminds a little too much of the one she
wanted to adapt.
La Maladie de la Mort: A man hires a woman to spend several nights
with him. On the last night he asks her if she believes that anyone
could ever love him, to which she answers no. The next morning she is
gone.
Anatomie de l'enfer: A woman hires a homosexual man to spend several
nights with her. She is in love with him, he is repulsed by her. On
the last night, he falls in love with her: Confronting her, she falls
to her death.
The reason why Breillat uses a homosexual man is, that she wants to
investigate sexuality. In Breillat's world, sexuality is above the
body; sex and sexuality are not necessarily the same thing. Hence
Breillat's duality of emotions: Lust and Repulsion, which several of
her films revolve about. In "Romance X" the woman wonders "Why do men
who are disgusted by us understand us better than those appealed by
us?" As such, "Anatomie de l'enfer" can be seen as Breillat looking
back on her body of work, destilling the motifs most important to her
and presenting them: That is why I suggest, that "Anatomie de
l'enfer" is the definitive work for Breillat as an auteur.
"Sex is Comedy" is very well worth it, especially if you have seen "A
ma soeur", as she here makes a film making fun of making film and of
her self. How to present something as intimate as the sexual act
without laughing? is the question she ask both herself and us. It is
very light and very French.
Henrik
10223
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 7:42am
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
Does it mean I have to like DEMOLITION
> MAN's blatant product placements because they're poked fun at?
>
> I suppose one word for it would be hypocrisy. Perhaps that's why,
> conscious or not, these "vaccinations" often fail to prevent
critics
> from attacking Speilberg, Von Trier, and Mamoulian at what they see
> as their "weak points".
>
> -Brian
Robert Aldrich was the first to poke fun about product placements
with the big Coke sign you see in the climactic game of The Longest
Yard. I always preferred the stoicism with which Budd Boetticher
watched Carlos Arruza being usptaged during the climactic bullfight
of Arruza by the same product. It was there; there was nothing he
could do about it; he didn't make a point of it. I'd still give
Aldrich points for originality, but trying to have it both ways this
late in the day (cf. Spielberg and Juraissic Park) does seem a little
cheap.
10224
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 7:45am
Subject: Re: Gilded Excesses
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "iangjohnston" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
> wrote:
> > Actually, I noted a fairly recent piece in POSITIF on 'humour in
> Bresson' -
> > a critical breakthrough!!
> >
> > Adrian
>
> I always thought the prime case being FOUR NIGHTS OF A DREAMER:
> Jacques following girls in the street, the visit of his artist
> friend, the film premiere, playing Marthe's name on his tape
> recorder on the bus - it's all meant to play as a comedy. A very
> Bressonian comedy of course, but still funny in its wry, dry way.
I agree. Also the way she dumps him at the end - although Rohmer got
the same joke off in a quarter of the time in my favorite episode of
Contes de Paris. Anyway, the painter friend is definitely supposed to
be funny.
10225
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:56am
Subject: Marxist Spielberg
Strange but true story:
An academically minded friend of mine named Alan Cholodenko - who actually
has a memorable close-up in Welles' FILMING OTHELLO, and is also related to
the film director Lisa Cholodenko! - was, a couple of years back, sitting in
a Sydney cafe penning an elaborate Baudrillardian analysis of JURASSIC PARK.
In walked ofrom the street: Sam Neill, the New Zealand star who is in that
movie. Alan plucked up the nerve to start a conversation with him about the
movie. And Sam freely offered this gem:
"Steven was very clear about his intentions - for him, the dinosaurs
symbolised RAMPANT CAPITALISM" !
Talk about a filmmaker having it both ways so fatally late in the day
!!!!!!!!!
Adrian
10226
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:26am
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
> I can't decide if these "vaccinations" are fully conscious and
> cynical, or unconscious and interesting, or somewhere in between. My
> instincts tell me to like DOGVILLE more, not less, because of its
> acknowledgement of its own arrogance. But I'm not sure what road
> that takes me down, yet. Does it mean I have to like DEMOLITION
> MAN's blatant product placements because they're poked fun at?
You don't *have* to do anything, as far as I know. But I don't see
the connection between DEMOLITION MAN and SCHINDLER'S LIST...on the
one hand, the Stallone film has a safety valve invented by a committee
of screenplay doctors. On the other, rather than "containing" such a
device, Spielberg's film is explicitly *about* the tension between the
protagonist's success as a savior and his (on a more unthinkable
level) failure as a member of the human race.
Your best bet might be - and again, do what you like - to examine a
film on its own terms rather than setting up a principle or a
structure of principles that leads you to make "group" judgments, to
say things like "these vaccinations." As filmmakers, Spielberg and
Von Trier are quite a bit more intelligent and shrewd (for better or,
if you like, and many do, worse) than Marco Brambilla, yes?
-Jaime
10227
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:30am
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
> Talk about a filmmaker having it both ways so fatally late in the day
> !!!!!!!!!
I guess I'm the only person here, at the moment, who seems willing to
examine what "having it both ways" means.
-Jaime
10228
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:19pm
Subject: 2046
One of my friends just returned from Cannes, having seen "2046" and
we briefly discussed it and its relation to WKW's other films: Here
is the core of the brief discussion:
2046" is the third part of a trilogy, starting with "Days of being
Wild" and continuing with "In the Mood for Love".
In the original version of "Days of being Wild" there are two scenes
with Tony Leung, who plays a character then named Smirk. The first is
at start, where he sits and gambles, the second is at the end and is
sort of cameo like. The version of the film now available only has
the last cameo in it. Wong originally intended "Days..." to be the
first of a series, but as the film was poorly recieved, he went a
different path. As most only have seen the new version, few even
noticed Tony Leung's cameo.
Leung played the character of Chow Mo-Wan in "In the Mood for Love"
and Chow Mo Wan in "2046". Here is the connection for his character
in the trilogy.
In "Days of Being Wild" Maggie Chung plays Su Lizhen, which she does
again in "In the Mood for Love" (Su Li-zhen). In "2046" the Su Li
Zhen is played by Gong Li, but Maggie Chung plays a robot, named
slz1960 (s:sue, lz:li zhen: 1960 from "In the Mood for Love"). Here
is the connection for her character.
Henrik
10229
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
>
> La Maladie de la Mort: A man hires a woman to spend
> several nights
> with him. On the last night he asks her if she
> believes that anyone
> could ever love him, to which she answers no. The
> next morning she is
> gone.
>
Duras was another woman obsessed with the
"indifference" of gay men. "La Maladie de la Mort'is
about such a gay man who "rejects" a woman. When she
met Yann Andrea, Duras discovered to her delight a gay
man masochistic enough to play out this "rejection"
game oindefinitely with her.
Anrdrea's gayness wasn't mentioned in "Cet Amour-La,"
the amazingly dishonest film made about their "affair"
that was realsed about a year and a half ago, starring
Jeanne Moreau.
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10230
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:14pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
The inoculation metaphor seems very useful, but a better example in
terms of product placement might be the personalized talking
billboard in Minority Report, where Spielberg gets in his
product placement (second only to the Reese's pieces of E.T.)
while also trying to pass it off for laughs (why didn't he just
make up an ersatz company instead of bowing to The Gap?).
Marxist, my foot!
The Silk Stockings example seems dubious to me, though, since the
"use/abuse" of both Ninotchka and War and Peace date back to the book
of the Broadway musical in 1955. In terms of 1955 (or even 1957, when
Mamoulian got his hands on the material), Ninotchka was only vaguely
remembered and rarely revived in that time when Hollywood was just
beginning to release its past hits to TV (and of course long before
VHS, let alone DVD). Equally, auteurism was barely out of short pants
at that point, so Mamoulian would surely not have felt constrained by
Lubitsch's position in the auteurist Pantheon (although he was on
record as a fan of The Marriage Circle).
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Darr"
wrote:
> ... a number of
> films I've seen recently contain "vaccinations" against criticism.
> That is, a scene or a plot detail that can be taken as a self-
> inflicted barb that pre-empts critical attacks on the film, as if a
> little self-criticism in the context of the film might innoculate
it
> against "harmful agents" from another context (film critics,
> discerning moviegoers, etc.).
>
> Two examples that come immediately to mind are DOGVILLE, an
arrogant
> film that includes a speech warning of the dangers of arrogance,
and
> SILK STOCKINGS, a musical adaptation of a classic (NINOTCHKA) that
> gets laughs out of the ludicrousness of making a musical adaptation
> of an even more hallowed classic ("War and Peace").
>
> I can't decide if these "vaccinations" are fully conscious and
> cynical, or unconscious and interesting, or somewhere in between.
...Does it mean I have to like DEMOLITION
> MAN's blatant product placements because they're poked fun at?
10231
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: Schindler's List 3
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Robert Aldrich was the first to poke fun about
> product placements
> with the big Coke sign you see in the climactic game
> of The Longest
> Yard. I always preferred the stoicism with which
> Budd Boetticher
> watched Carlos Arruza being usptaged during the
> climactic bullfight
> of Arruza by the same product. It was there; there
> was nothing he
> could do about it; he didn't make a point of it. I'd
> still give
> Aldrich points for originality, but trying to have
> it both ways this
> late in the day (cf. Spielberg and Juraissic Park)
> does seem a little
> cheap.
>
Joe Dante has a great deal of fun at Wal-Mart's
expense in "Looney Tunes back in Action." Considering
the fact that "Wal Mart" is to the U.S. economy as the
U.S. is to Iraq -- an occupying army -- Joe's slam is
especially sweet.
The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood California,
and more recently in the entire state of Vermont, is
one of the most important news stories of the year.
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10232
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:25pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
e
>
> The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood California,
> and more recently in the entire state of Vermont, is
> one of the most important news stories of the year.
>
And in the entire city of Chicago (so far, at least).
--Robert Keser
10233
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Schindler's List 3
Really? That's great to hear. Their propaganda is
relentless. They have been running commercials in L.A.
that make it look like Wal-Mart pays for employees
bypass surgery.
I'm not kidding.
--- Robert Keser wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> e
> >
> > The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood
> California,
> > and more recently in the entire state of Vermont,
> is
> > one of the most important news stories of the
> year.
> >
> And in the entire city of Chicago (so far, at
> least).
>
> --Robert Keser
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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10234
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
I'm right behind you, Jaime! I wanted to respond to all three of
your posts on SCHINDLER'S (I'm really glad you revisited the film).
I thought a bit about your claim that SCHINDLER'S is the only
contemporary film that argues that capitalism can be employed to do
good in the world (but how do you resolve this with his apparent
pessimism towards rampant capitalism in JURASSIC PARK - love that
Neill flashback, Adrian - A.I. and MINORITY REPORT?)
If people are going to indulge in the same old Spielberg-bashing,
then maybe I should revive the SULLIVAN TRAVELS discussion to extend
this "having both ways" argument towards someone less conveniently
maligned.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> > Talk about a filmmaker having it both ways so fatally late in the
day
> > !!!!!!!!!
>
> I guess I'm the only person here, at the moment, who seems willing
to
> examine what "having it both ways" means.
>
> -Jaime
10235
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:51pm
Subject: Re: 2046
Interesting... look forward to seeing it, probably at the NY Film
Festival in October.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
Wong originally intended "Days..." to be the
> first of a series, but as the film was poorly recieved, he went a
> different path. As most only have seen the new version, few even
> noticed Tony Leung's cameo.
It's the best part of wkw's best film (though I haven't yet seen AS
TEARS GO BY). But wait, this was poorly received? Didn't it win the
HK Film Award for best picture?
10236
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:54pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> The inoculation metaphor seems very useful, but a better example in
> terms of product placement might be the personalized talking
> billboard in Minority Report, where Spielberg gets in his
> product placement (second only to the Reese's pieces of E.T.)
> while also trying to pass it off for laughs (why didn't he just
> make up an ersatz company instead of bowing to The Gap?).
> Marxist, my foot!
Hey, I found this pretty damn subversive! The oppressive, creepy
nature of the future Gap was anything but a promotional kowtow to the
company, more like a jujitsu move. If the audience didn't get it,
it's their fault! (After all, they didn't get A.I. either,
Spielberg's greatest achievement to date).
10237
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:56pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
Someone should call Michael Moore to see if he knows if the Wal-Mart
marketing team has any ties with Bush's marketing team. Both do an
incredible job of telling persuasive lies that exploit the the naive
idealistic impulses of middle America.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Really? That's great to hear. Their propaganda is
> relentless. They have been running commercials in L.A.
> that make it look like Wal-Mart pays for employees
> bypass surgery.
>
> I'm not kidding.
>
>
> --- Robert Keser wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> >
> > wrote:
> > e
> > >
> > > The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood
> > California,
> > > and more recently in the entire state of Vermont,
> > is
> > > one of the most important news stories of the
> > year.
> > >
> > And in the entire city of Chicago (so far, at
> > least).
> >
> > --Robert Keser
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
10238
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Schindler's List 3
>Really? That's great to hear. Their propaganda is
>relentless. They have been running commercials in L.A.
>that make it look like Wal-Mart pays for employees
>bypass surgery.
One of the major causes of the recent grocery workers' strike in
L.A., of course, was Wal-Mart's announcement that it would build
Superstores in the area, which caused Von's to drop its employee
health benefits and Albertson's and Ralph's to follow suit. But one
of the most interesting responses occured when the Green Party and
Laemmle Theatres held a benefit screening of "Salt of the Earth" in
support of the strike (mentioned in the latest Cineaste magazine).
Did anyone here besides me get to attend this? It garnered a fairly
large crowd and prompted an engaged discussion. It was nice to know
that people still recognize the political potential of "dated" cinema
these days.
Doug
10239
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
though one could also say that it's a sad commentary about American
political cinema that they had to dig back 50 years to find a
suitable film to screen.
Still, beats NORMA RAE, don't it?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Doug Cummings wrote:
> >Really? That's great to hear. Their propaganda is
> >relentless. They have been running commercials in L.A.
> >that make it look like Wal-Mart pays for employees
> >bypass surgery.
>
> One of the major causes of the recent grocery workers' strike in
> L.A., of course, was Wal-Mart's announcement that it would build
> Superstores in the area, which caused Von's to drop its employee
> health benefits and Albertson's and Ralph's to follow suit. But
one
> of the most interesting responses occured when the Green Party and
> Laemmle Theatres held a benefit screening of "Salt of the Earth" in
> support of the strike (mentioned in the latest Cineaste magazine).
> Did anyone here besides me get to attend this? It garnered a
fairly
> large crowd and prompted an engaged discussion. It was nice to
know
> that people still recognize the political potential of "dated"
cinema
> these days.
>
> Doug
10240
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:13pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
>Someone should call Michael Moore to see if he knows if the Wal-Mart
>marketing team has any ties with Bush's marketing team. Both do an
>incredible job of telling persuasive lies that exploit the the naive
>idealistic impulses of middle America.
According to reports of "Fahrenheit 9/11," Moore already juxtaposes
US military abuse of prisoners in Iraq with footage of military
recruiters in America prowling Wal-Mart parking lots for potential
enlistees.
Doug
10241
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Re: Bresson's humor
>Actually, I noted a fairly recent piece in POSITIF on 'humour in Bresson' -
>a critical breakthrough!!
Sounds great, Adrian, can you remember offhand the specific issue?
"A Man Escaped" and "Lancelot du Lac" were both released on DVD in
the US yesterday and skimming through the "Man Escaped" disc, I was
reminded of many moments of what I consider subtle humor:
-When Fontaine's captor asks him to promise not to escape, Fontaine
does so, and then narrates, "What was this new game? Obviously, he
didn't believe me. As for myself, I decided to escape as soon as
possible."
-When Fontaine first separates the wood of his cell door and ventures
into the hallway at night in order to erase the "no food or exercize"
command on another prisoner's door, the person inside says it's
"impossible" that Fontaine could be there. Fontaine's considers,
"His astonishment gave me pleasure. I went to sleep less unhappy."
-When one of the prisoners tells Fontaine he is the only person to
think of escaping because it's impossible, Orsini comes up from
behind Fontaine and immediately whispers, "Take me with you."
Little moments like that suggest, at least, a quiet amusement on
Bresson's part that may explain why he once described himself as "un
pessimiste gai."
Doug
10242
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Schindler's List 3
Wal-Mart would be a GREAT subject for Moore. It's got
everything. Most important of all its got a public
fighting back from the grass roots.
--- Kevin Lee wrote:
> Someone should call Michael Moore to see if he knows
> if the Wal-Mart
> marketing team has any ties with Bush's marketing
> team. Both do an
> incredible job of telling persuasive lies that
> exploit the the naive
> idealistic impulses of middle America.
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> > Really? That's great to hear. Their propaganda is
> > relentless. They have been running commercials in
> L.A.
> > that make it look like Wal-Mart pays for employees
> > bypass surgery.
> >
> > I'm not kidding.
> >
> >
> > --- Robert Keser wrote:
> > > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David
> Ehrenstein
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > e
> > > >
> > > > The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood
> > > California,
> > > > and more recently in the entire state of
> Vermont,
> > > is
> > > > one of the most important news stories of the
> > > year.
> > > >
> > > And in the entire city of Chicago (so far, at
> > > least).
> > >
> > > --Robert Keser
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
>
>
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10243
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:37pm
Subject: Days of Being Wild
> In the original version of "Days of being Wild" there are two scenes
> with Tony Leung, who plays a character then named Smirk. The first is
> at start, where he sits and gambles, the second is at the end and is
> sort of cameo like. The version of the film now available only has
> the last cameo in it.
I just saw this three days ago, and I could swear the film opened with a
shot of Leung sitting in that same room where the last scene took place.
But no commentator that I've found refers to that opening shot.
> As most only have seen the new version, few even
> noticed Tony Leung's cameo.
Hard to miss it! It's the last scene of the film, it goes on for quite
a while, and it has nothing obvious to do with the rest of the film.
Perplexing, to say the least. - Dan
10244
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer
> Duras was another woman obsessed with the
> "indifference" of gay men.
Do you imply that Breillat is obsessed with the indifference of gay men?
I'm trying to remember a gay man (or woman) in any of her previous
films, and failing. - Dan
10245
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:03pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: Preston Sturges - Sullivan's Travels - opinions sought
bringing back from the dead (and perhaps tying into the recent
accusations of Spielberg's have your cake and eat it-ism) I forgot to
post this reply that Bill sent me but somehow didn't appear on the
forum:
> alsolikelife@y... wrote:
>
> Marian Keane (who wrote a study on Cavell) does the
> Criterion dvd
> commentary for LADY EVE and refers to Cavell
> frequently. And I'd say
> it sticks about half the time (if I'd accepted the
> other half I'd
> probably have to break into a chorus of "Anything
> Goes")
Particularly applicable to his reading of North by
Northwest as being based on the Ur-Hamlet. But he has
more good ones than bad ones.
> "There's a lot to be
> said for making people laugh. Did you know that
> that's all some
> people have?" Going back to my earlier point, does
> "some people"
> refer to the great unwashed, or to entertainers such
> as
> Sullivan/Sturges? I think there's a strong
> possibility that Sturges
> is implicating himself with that line, that he's
> part of
> this "cockeyed caravan," so that I read that line as
> one expressing
> more bewilderment at the mysteries of society than
> disdain at its
> base depravity. This kind of tense engagement and
> self-implication is
> much more than what you'd get from a snooty,
> nihilistic judge of
> humanity like Woody Allen.
That is a Cavellian reading of the line, in the sense
that the primary sense is loud and clear - he's
talking about the men on the chain gang. is the second
meaning "allowable"? Derrida, Cavell and others all
the way back to William Empson would probably say yes.
And it's pretty clear from what we see that whoever
makes the films that speak for the poor, it can't be
Sullivan - he just doesn't know the subject.
>
> > can you recall any significant
> > debates where you found yourself arguing that what
> might look
> > like a flaw in a film (usually in terms of its
> "craft") may
> actually be
> > an artistic virtue that cuts straight to the heart
> of what the film
> is
> > about?
> >
> > Hundreds of them.
>
> Uh, name one? (aw shucks, I do I really look that
> wet behind the
> ears?)
That would depend on who you ask. many take a very
un-counter-intuitive approach to film, but I, for
example, don't even consider Ed Woodto be a bad
filmmaker in any sense that I would call meaningful.
And I often focus on the weaknesses as symptoms, or
even as clues to the "grace beyond the reach of art"
(ie good taste) that the Romantics and the 18th
Century called the Sublime.
Renoir is also full of examples - Rohmer in his
article on the Petit Theatre talks about all the "bad
acting" in Renoir films that makes them great,
reminding the reader that Dalio's acting in Rules of
the Game was harshly criticized at the time of the
film's initial release. But of course the "badness" is
no longer visible to us.
My serious cinephilia started with Red Line 7000,
which is full of "bad acting." Is the guy who plays
Ned Arp just awful, or is that what Ned Arp would be
like in real life? And the string that runs from Ned
Arp through the film gathers up a number of other
elements - the sets, the musical number, other
performances, the announcer (always in the same booth,
never in the same shirt) - which entranced me when I
first saw the film my freshman year in college, and
which I would still argue make it one of the few
contemporary films made in 1964, as well as the most
abstract.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, bill krohn wrote:
> --- jiankevin wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 17:18:24 -0000
> > From: "jiankevin"
> > To: "hotlove666"
> > Subject: Re: Preston Sturges - Sullivan's Travels -
> > opinions sought
> >
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Check out Stanley Cavell's discussion of The Lady
> > Eve in
> > > Pursuits of Happiness. Without having read it in a
> > long time, I'm
> > > sure he philosophizes about the implausible accent
> > till the cows
> > > come home and probably makes it stick...about half
> > the time. I've
> > > always assumed that Nouvelle Vague was Godard's
> > remake of
> > > Lady Eve. Probably not.
> >
> > Marian Keane (who wrote a study on Cavell) does the
> > Criterion dvd
> > commentary for LADY EVE and refers to Cavell
> > frequently. And I'd say
> > it sticks about half the time (if I'd accepted the
> > other half I'd
> > probably have to break into a chorus of "Anything
> > Goes")
> >
> > > As for Sullivan's Travels, few more divided
> > artists ever walked the
> > > earth than Preston Sturges - his mother hung out
> > with Isadora
> > > Duncan and his father was a businessman with no
> > interest in
> > > culture whatsoever.
> >
> > re: Preston's mom and Isadora, your choice of phrase
> > is interesting
> > given that Duncan died of strangulation when a long
> > scarf Sturges'
> > mother gave her got caught in the wheel of a car.
> >
> > The only thing I can't justify in Sullivan's
> > > Travels is the last line, "the whole cockeyed
> > caravan." That's a
> > > vile phrase no matter how you cut it.
> >
> > Yeah, but what about the lines that precede it:
> > "There's a lot to be
> > said for making people laugh. Did you know that
> > that's all some
> > people have?" Going back to my earlier point, does
> > "some people"
> > refer to the great unwashed, or to entertainers such
> > as
> > Sullivan/Sturges? I think there's a strong
> > possibility that Sturges
> > is implicating himself with that line, that he's
> > part of
> > this "cockeyed caravan," so that I read that line as
> > one expressing
> > more bewilderment at the mysteries of society than
> > disdain at its
> > base depravity. This kind of tense engagement and
> > self-implication is
> > much more than what you'd get from a snooty,
> > nihilistic judge of
> > humanity like Woody Allen.
> >
> > > can you recall any significant
> > > debates where you found yourself arguing that what
> > might look
> > > like a flaw in a film (usually in terms of its
> > "craft") may
> > actually be
> > > an artistic virtue that cuts straight to the heart
> > of what the film
> > is
> > > about?
> > >
> > > Hundreds of them.
> >
> > Uh, name one? (aw shucks, I do I really look that
> > wet behind the
> > ears?)
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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10246
From: Raymond P.
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:08pm
Subject: Re: Days of Being Wild
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> I just saw this three days ago, and I could swear the film opened with a
> shot of Leung sitting in that same room where the last scene took
place.
> But no commentator that I've found refers to that opening shot.
Aha! You can find all about this mysterious new footage here:
http://www.mhvf.net/forum/asian/posts/108223108250826.html
The link doesn't answer any of the questions at all! But at least the scene
is discussed....
10247
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser"
wrote:
> > ...the personalized talking
> > billboard in Minority Report, where Spielberg gets in his
> > product placement (second only to the Reese's pieces of E.T.)
> > while also trying to pass it off for laughs (why didn't he just
> > make up an ersatz company instead of bowing to The Gap?).
> > Marxist, my foot!
>
> Hey, I found this pretty damn subversive! The oppressive, creepy
> nature of the future Gap was anything but a promotional kowtow to
the
> company, more like a jujitsu move. If the audience didn't get it,
> it's their fault! (After all, they didn't get A.I. either,
> Spielberg's greatest achievement to date).
But what does that subvert? It makes advertising seem creepy and
oppressive, but still gives The Gap a big fat loud plug (you didn't
hear them complaining, did you?) He could just as easily have made
up a company name, after all.
Here's my Spielberg rant (in terms of Catch Me If You Can), and I'm
sticking to it:
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/03/27/spielberg_symposium_film
s_and_moments.html
--Robert Keser
10248
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Days of Being Wild
>>I just saw this three days ago, and I could swear the film opened with a
>>shot of Leung sitting in that same room where the last scene took
> place.
>
>> But no commentator that I've found refers to that opening shot.
>
> Aha! You can find all about this mysterious new footage here:
> http://www.mhvf.net/forum/asian/posts/108223108250826.html
Thanks! I was starting to think I was crazy. - Dan
10249
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
> I couldn't bring myself to see the original
> "Shrek" -- I found the
> trailer and everything I saw/read/heard about the
> movie repulsive, so
> I'm not likely to see #2.
I'm not a big fan of the animation, which looks like
run-of-the-mill 3D animation, and the "subversiveness"
is mostly skin-deep, but it did have a real
determination to stick it to Michael Eisner and Disney
that I found amusing...and I was disappointed to not
find in the sequel, which does generalized satires on
Hollywood and product placements.
>I think Looney Tunes
> Back... is a work of
> art indeed but I see nothing sublime about it,
> except perhaps its
> undeniable ambition. Its over-the-topness is
> exhausting and
> ultimately sad -- made me long for the real stuff.
I'd argue that it IS the real stuff, myself. It might
help to think of the movie not so much as a rehash of
Chuck Jones as a Joe Dante flick. That over-the-top
quality is precisely where he wants to go, he wasted
little time getting there, and he struck a few
inspired notes along the way. I'd say it's the best
American animation in recent years, that including the
Pixar stuff.
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10250
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
> I thought a bit about your claim that SCHINDLER'S is the only
> contemporary film that argues that capitalism can be employed to do
> good in the world
Well, I confess I was in exaggeration mode, I'm sure there are other
films that dramatize these ideas.
But the broader and more complex point that the film makes (and which
is supported by such "little moments" as I mentioned) is that an idea
like capitalism is an adaptable one that gets its hooks into a social
movement (like Nazism, war in general) and basically uses it for its
forward momentum. The "good or ill" question is ultimately decided
within the individual's conscience.
In the case of JURASSIC PARK, you've obviously got this dual-attack
on "rampant capitalism" and science-without-morality. Similar (and
to my mind, more engaging) provocations with MINORITY REPORT.
In each case, Spielberg always ties together plot resolution with
personal responsibility: the active protagonist. The main, broad
thing that happens in the LIST that I saw was that, in the deep pit
of all this horror, it was possible for a small (yet not small)
victory to take place. Facilitated by the capitalist mechanism of
WWII Germany, facilitated by the personal choices of two men (Stern
and Schindler). The film is an enormous, harsh proving ground for
this tiny sliver of hope, that's a large part of what makes the film
such a moving experience. For me.
Another "test" for this hope is reflected in the doppelganger motif
Spielberg (and possibly Keneally, I don't remember well enough) sets
up between Schindler and Amon Goeth. One man chooses one path, the
other chooses another.
-Jaime
10251
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
> But what does that subvert? It makes advertising seem creepy and
> oppressive, but still gives The Gap a big fat loud plug (you didn't
> hear them complaining, did you?)
So? The Gap makes quality clothing at affordable prices. Do they
exploit third-world workers or something? If so, we're onto
something - otherwise, I don't think I see the evil of a product plug.
-Jaime
10252
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:17pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
> "Commercial Films":
> These do not depend on the "motives" of directors,
> or their goals for the film. They refer to a
> production system.
Good point, though I would start the list of studios
with (counting on number of movies made) BOMBAY,
Hollywood, Paris, etc., etc. Somewhere down that
list, Manila tops--or used to top--lists of active
Southeast Asian filmmaking countries.
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10253
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:26pm
Subject: Advertising in movies
Even when there as legitimate mise-en-scene items, many advertised
products seem to pop out of movie scenes, and yet we have these
same products around us so much of the time anyway.
Do we notice the advertised product because
-- it is one we love to hate?
--we share use of that same product as the characters?
What I find interesting is that the name label is often spelled
right out in the forefront (even if in the background). If I were
in the advertising department, I would show only a partial
image of the logo / label, as viewers would probably spend
additional attention trying to figure out what the product is ...
it's a natural tendency to try to make $en$e of things!
Elizabeth
10254
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
> > But what does that subvert? It makes advertising seem creepy and
>> oppressive, but still gives The Gap a big fat loud plug (you didn't
>> hear them complaining, did you?)
>
>So? The Gap makes quality clothing at affordable prices. Do they
>exploit third-world workers or something? If so, we're onto
>something - otherwise, I don't think I see the evil of a product plug.
Jaime, is this a serious question?
"NEW YORK (Reuters) - Clothing retailer Gap Inc. said on Wednesday
that forced labor, child labor, paying below minimum wage, physical
punishment and coercion are some of the widespread workers' rights
violations occurring at many of its factories worldwide."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040512/bs_nm/retail_gap_labor_dc
Doug
10255
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Schindler's List 3
> > > The revolt against Wal-Mart in Ingelwood
> > California,
> > > and more recently in the entire state of Vermont,
> > is
> > > one of the most important news stories of the
> > year.
> > >
> > And in the entire city of Chicago (so far, at
> > least).
> >
> > --Robert Keser
30 yrs ago Walmart wanted to build in my little home town in Texas
and the city fathers, fearing that it would wreck other businesses,
said no. So they built in the next town up the road, and the only
business open in my hometown today is the pharmacy, thanks to
Medicare probably. They're really bad news.
10256
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Korean Cinema
I understand disliking Chunyang for being
conventional, but I rather enjoyed its old-fashioned
David Lean/Kurosawa-like qualities, complete with
pansori performance to add a touch of mythmaking to
the story, and would argue it's a sign of strength in
Korean cinema that it makes both films like Chunyang
and Power of Kangwon Province.
Haven't seen Kim ki Duk's latest myself, but I would
argue that if he may seem intellectually shallow in,
say, The Isle, I'd argue he has a gift for beautiful
imagery or shocking imagery that is at the same time
beautiful, and that he's probably making films out of
his obsessions rather than out of ideas, which I think
is as valid a way of making films as any. He belongs
more to the shock cinema of Gaspar Noe or Takashi
Miike (tho I think he's more imaginative) than to the
thoughtful one of Hong Sang Soo, who's more readily
comparable to, say, Hou Hisao Hsien.
Kim does occasionally do more than repel or shock; his
Bad Guy has less uncomfortable imagery, but the story,
of a pimp who creates a whore out of a young woman,
has more complex and more unsettling
meanings--unsettling in a different sense from a fish
hook in the mouth.
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10257
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:43pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
> "NEW YORK (Reuters) - Clothing retailer Gap Inc. said on Wednesday
> that forced labor, child labor, paying below minimum wage, physical
> punishment and coercion are some of the widespread workers' rights
> violations occurring at many of its factories worldwide."
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040512/bs_nm/retail_gap_labor_dc
>
> Doug
Unquestionably abhorrent corporate behaviour. One might observe,
however -
Reuters report: May 12, 2004
Minority Report premiere: June 17, 2002
Interesting point mentioned in the report: the investigation was
initiated by Gap Inc. Sounds less like muckraking than confessional.
-Jaime
10258
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
>Interesting point mentioned in the report: the investigation was
>initiated by Gap Inc. Sounds less like muckraking than confessional.
Do you think Gap confessed out of the kindness of their heart? Human
rights groups have been pressuring them to come clean for *years*.
Doug
10259
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:48pm
Subject: SALT of the EARTH off topic
Salt of the Earth seems to play pretty often in San Diego area in the
past few years.
Off Topic
One has to wonder when a connect is going to made between what
people contribute to society and what they can expect in return when
our society advertises a standard of living that many cannot attain.
If one 'works' can one expect to have a three bedroom house and
two car garage, a college fund for the kids, a retirement program
that covers you 20-40 years, a health plan at no cost, etc...?
A living wage is desirable but what is that standard of living?
Still, with food, clothing, shelter, health care concerns, this
country can spend $100 million on the opening weekend of
$HREK, with its product placement, if only of SHREK, DONKEY, etc.
products!
I sometimes wonder if we can afford the BILLIONS of dollars we
spend on ENTERTAINMENT. As far as an exportable product,
entertainment is one of the most easily prirated of all; I read
about universal release dates, and closing the gap between opening
days and DVD release dates.
Health care costs is obviously in the news; you may or may not know
that many hospitals are cutting back their services. My sister works
in an operating room in St. Louis and they had built a total of 15
rooms over the past few years. They only run 5 and have to bring
in locum tenens anesthesiologists; they have no neurosurgeons and
getting an orthopedic doctor is hard anywhere. In Coronado, the
OB department closed. Check out the medical services in your area.
I saw an "advertisment" for WASHINGTON state with an image of
doctors leaving the state in droves because of costs.
In general, we will see a movement back to 9-5, M-F services,
as opposed to 24/365, for anything other than automated services.
10260
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Drums and Canons
>
> I'd argue that it IS the real stuff, myself. It might
> help to think of the movie not so much as a rehash of
> Chuck Jones as a Joe Dante flick. That over-the-top
> quality is precisely where he wants to go, he wasted
> little time getting there, and he struck a few
> inspired notes along the way. I'd say it's the best
> American animation in recent years, that including the
> Pixar stuff.
>
Totally agree. I'm not a fan of the Pixar look so far, although I
should admit to not having seen a lot of it. On the other hand I
loved the animation in Osmosis Jones!
10261
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
> But the broader and more complex point that the film makes (and
which
> is supported by such "little moments" as I mentioned) is that an
idea
> like capitalism is an adaptable one that gets its hooks into a
social
> movement (like Nazism, war in general) and basically uses it for
its
> forward momentum. The "good or ill" question is ultimately decided
> within the individual's conscience.
The most famous sequence - the little girl in red - which does come
from the book, is based on a simple fact of perception: when we look
at a large event with many figures moving about in it, we focus on
one. Wordsworth wrote a lovely sonnet about that, one of many poems
in his oeuvre about a moment of consciousness-of-self triggered by
contemplation of a natural scene (in this case, actually, a mixed on:
ships in London harbor seen from a height).
10262
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Doug Cummings wrote:
>
> >Interesting point mentioned in the report: the investigation was
> >initiated by Gap Inc. Sounds less like muckraking than
confessional.
>
> Do you think Gap confessed out of the kindness of their heart?
Human
> rights groups have been pressuring them to come clean for *years*.
>
> Doug
So what are we talking about now? Can we bring this back to the
film, maybe?
-Jaime
10263
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Days of Being Wild
> In the original version of "Days of
being Wild" there are two scenes
> with Tony Leung, who plays a character then named Smirk. The first is
> at start, where he sits and gambles, the second is at the end and is
> sort of cameo like.
There are posts at www.wongkarwai.net as well as another Wong fan site (which is linked to there) recalling an earlier, two-hour version of Days of Being
Wild (the "director's cut") which apparently included more Tony Leung material (a scene with Leung and Andy Lau, for example). (They also claim that
additional footage was shot for a never-completed Chapter 2 and is - or was - "rotting in storage.")
> "2046" is the third part of a trilogy, starting with "Days of being
> Wild" and continuing with "In the Mood for Love".
Footnote: In Days of Being Wild, Andy Lau checks into hotel room 204 in the Philippines - not yet the room 2046 of ItMfL.
10264
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:58pm
Subject: Re: Korean Cinema
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Noel Vera wrote:
> Haven't seen Kim ki Duk's latest myself, but I would
> argue that if he may seem intellectually shallow in,
> say, The Isle, I'd argue he has a gift for beautiful
> imagery or shocking imagery that is at the same time
> beautiful, and that he's probably making films out of
> his obsessions rather than out of ideas, which I think
> is as valid a way of making films as any. He belongs
> more to the shock cinema of Gaspar Noe or Takashi
> Miike (tho I think he's more imaginative) than to the
> thoughtful one of Hong Sang Soo, who's more readily
> comparable to, say, Hou Hisao Hsien.
One wonders what the response to THE ISLE would be if
the settings were seedy crowded cityscapes; or the
story content, romance rather than horror.
It may be 'easy' to juxtapose beauty with horror but
an absurd outcome can follow, rather than the
watchable ISLE.
10265
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Advertising in movies
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> Even when there as legitimate mise-en-scene items, many advertised
> products seem to pop out of movie scenes, and yet we have these
> same products around us so much of the time anyway.
>
> Do we notice the advertised product because
> -- it is one we love to hate?
> --we share use of that same product as the characters?
>
> What I find interesting is that the name label is often spelled
> right out in the forefront (even if in the background). If I were
> in the advertising department, I would show only a partial
> image of the logo / label, as viewers would probably spend
> additional attention trying to figure out what the product is ...
> it's a natural tendency to try to make $en$e of things!
This is actually pretty common - example, a lot of the time, when you
see a Coke can in a film, it's turned something like halfway around,
because everybody presumably knows the shape and scheme of Coke's
logo, etc.
-Jaime
10266
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer
You mean she has to make more than one film about this
to qualify as obsessed?
Henrik has been quite generous in Quoting Breillat's
high and mighty statements about the presumably
overwhelming importance of what she's supposedly doing
here -- apparently using a "gay man" is a living sock
puppet for her notions of breaking sexual precedent.
I await the results with all the eager anticipation I
had toward Mel Gibson's "NASCAR Jesus" -- which failed
to disappoint. Perhaps she has something of interest
to say. her previous work hasn't impressed me all that
much. I enjoyed "Tapage Nocturne" but that's about it.
Nevertheless as a 57 year-old gay man of considerable
experience I find the premise of her current
enterprise to be at the very least presumptuous.
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Duras was another woman obsessed with the
> > "indifference" of gay men.
>
> Do you imply that Breillat is obsessed with the
> indifference of gay men?
> I'm trying to remember a gay man (or woman) in any
> of her previous
> films, and failing. - Dan
>
>
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10267
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> So what are we talking about now? Can we bring this back to the
> film, maybe?
My point was exactly about the film, that the cute joke about
The Gap in Minority Report functions to deflect criticism (or
"inoculate", in Brian's metaphor) so that viewers would not
balk at Spielberg's *all-time-record number* of product
placements in that film (though the upcoming The Terminal
promises to rival it, judging from the trailer). An occasional
product placement might not be innately evil (and could provide
crucial funding to make a particular project viable), but to
attend a Spielberg movie lately means to be marinated in
commercials (and he's raising the bar of tolerance for cynical
ads in all other mainstream films). We already live in a society
awash in corporate pimping, so I'm unwilling to cut any slack
for any director who expects us to pay ten bucks AND get
advertised at. At least Troy didn't immerse us in the carnival
of capitalism (unless you want to count Brad Pitt as a product
himself).
Not at all unrelated in this culture of commercial values is the
news, just now reported, that the Chicago City Council--despite
considerable local objections--has just approved the building of
the first Wal-Mart in the city, in a poor black and Hispanic area.
There goes the neighborhood!
--Robert Keser
10268
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Advertising in movies
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
> wrote:
> > Even when there as legitimate mise-en-scene items, many
advertised
> > products seem to pop out of movie scenes, and yet we have these
> > same products around us so much of the time anyway.
> >
it's a natural tendency to try to make $en$e of things!
Yes, we do have those products around us all the time, and yes
we try to make sense of things ("What brand of scotch is that
bottle?" etc...) Interestingly, in pre-product-placement days movie
makers systematically avoided recognizible "products" on screen, even
to the point of absurdity. Look at a 1940's or 50s film with scenes
set in a drugstrore or supermarket or grocery store. Not one single
label can be identified -- they all are or look generic (see the
scenes in the drugstore in Best Years of Our Lives, or the store
where Stanwyck and MacMurray meet in Double Indemnity.This refusal to
appear to be advertising some brand may have been admirable but it
created a sense of total unreality. We have never been in stores like
that. Product placement may be crassly mercenary but when used in
moderation and discretion, it brings some admittedly superficial but
not unwelcome realism to a scene.
(I haven't read all the posts on this topic so maybe someone else
made the same point before...)
JPC
10269
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:50pm
Subject: Product Placement
Hitchcock was a big one for product placement in his
movies. Think of the "Mark Cross Overnight Case" in
"Rear Window" -- an ad that's of pivotal importance to
the characters and their relatioship.
In "Marnie" a big deal is made over a "Horn and
Hardart" cake, to less interesting effect.
Jerry Lewis was always a big one for product placement
and has written about its usefulness to film financing
and production in his book "The Total Filmmaker."
I was looking at "Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter" last
night and the fake ads that Tashlin confects
throughout the movie resonate with the real ads that
were everywhere in evidence in 1950's pop culture.
Joe Dante using Wal-Mart against itself in "Looney
Tunes Back in Action" splits the difference between
Lewis and Tashlin.
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10270
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> > The most famous sequence - the little girl in red - which does
come
> from the book, is based on a simple fact of perception: when we
look
> at a large event with many figures moving about in it, we focus on
> one. Wordsworth wrote a lovely sonnet about that, one of many poems
> in his oeuvre about a moment of consciousness-of-self triggered by
> contemplation of a natural scene (in this case, actually, a mixed
on:
> ships in London harbor seen from a height).
"Ships, towers, domes, theatres, and temples lie/Open unto the
fields, and to the sky.../ And all that mighty heart is lying still."
10271
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:19pm
Subject: Re: Product Placement
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Hitchcock was a big one for product placement in his
> movies. Think of the "Mark Cross Overnight Case" in
> "Rear Window" -- an ad that's of pivotal importance to
> the characters and their relatioship.
>
But of course it's largely symbolic. The Production Code wouldn't
have accepted it if Stewart hadn't been confined to his wheelchair
and unable to join Kelly in bed. Yes Breen (who made countless
objections to the script) was on his way out but the Old Code was
still in force, if somewhat weakened. Times were changing but slowly -
- the leeringly puritanistic attitude of the Wendell Corey character
and Stewart's protests of innocence must seem weirdly dated to
today's viewers.
There must have been a rush to buy those (very expensive)
overnight cases (in French naughtily known as "baise-en-ville") after
the movie opened.
> JPC
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
10272
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Product Placement
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
Times were
> changing but slowly -
> - the leeringly puritanistic attitude of the Wendell
> Corey character
> and Stewart's protests of innocence must seem
> weirdly dated to
> today's viewers.
>
I'm not so sure. The main thing I would imagine most
viewers would be wonder about would be how Stewart
could manage to make love to Kelly with his leg in a
cast.
Nothing puritanical about that.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
10273
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:50pm
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
> My point was exactly about the film, that the cute joke about
> The Gap in Minority Report functions to deflect criticism (or
> "inoculate", in Brian's metaphor) so that viewers would not
> balk at Spielberg's *all-time-record number* of product
> placements in that film (though the upcoming The Terminal
> promises to rival it, judging from the trailer).
Not just out of curiosity, but how do you feel about MINORITY REPORT
on the whole?
> At least Troy didn't immerse us in the carnival
> of capitalism (unless you want to count Brad Pitt as a product
> himself).
Okay, great, but it's a worthless film in every respect. A product
placement might have broken the tedium.
-Jaime
10274
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:55pm
Subject: Ozu and product placement
Almost all of Ozu's color films are potent advertisements for Johnny
Walker Red Label - the number one scotch whisky in the world, if you
believe the Johnny Walker website - among other liquors. And most of
his silent films were packed with one-sheets from contemporaneous
Hollywood films that he liked.
Red Label makes a heavy impression in Losey's CinemaScope short, THE
MAN ON THE BEACH, although as Dan pointed out in our sharing of this
humorous observation, Losey's mise-en-scene is quite different from
Ozu's.
-Jaime
10275
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:55pm
Subject: Re: Advertising in movies
Interestingly, in pre-product-placement days movie
> makers systematically avoided recognizible "products" on screen,
even
> to the point of absurdity. Product placement may be crassly
mercenary but when used in
> moderation and discretion, it brings some admittedly superficial
but
> not unwelcome realism to a scene.
> JPC
Actually, Red Line 7000, a film I cite in the offline post about
counter-intuiveness and auteuris that was kindly posted here by
Kevin, was very impressive for that. It is loaded with recognizable
pieces of the 1964 American landscape in the Deep South - including
lots of racing cars and motor oils, but also Coke, Holiday Inns -
giving it a pop art quality I subsequently recognized as "Red Linean"
when I saw Zabriskie Point. I have no idea of HH was getting paid,
but he definitely made it art -- that was one of the things that
stunned me when I saw the film for the first time.
10276
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:57pm
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> >
> > > The most famous sequence - the little girl in red - which does
> come
> > from the book, is based on a simple fact of perception: when we
> look
> > at a large event with many figures moving about in it, we focus
on
> > one. Wordsworth wrote a lovely sonnet about that, one of many
poems
> > in his oeuvre about a moment of consciousness-of-self triggered
by
> > contemplation of a natural scene (in this case, actually, a mixed
> on:
> > ships in London harbor seen from a height).
>
Actaully it's the one that starts "With ships the sea was sprinkled
far and wide," but that's pretty good JP!
> "Ships, towers, domes, theatres, and temples lie/Open unto
the
> fields, and to the sky.../ And all that mighty heart is lying
still."
10277
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 11:00pm
Subject: Re: Advertising in movies
The incoprporation of ad iconography was key to the New Wave -
particularly Godard, with his whole Pop Art sensibility -- as a
critique of consumer society. I didn't laugh at the gags about
franchising in Jurrasic Park, but I thought the Invasion of the
Eyeball-Ads in Minority Report was absolutely brilliant.
10278
From: George Robinson
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Bresson's humor
I recall a memorable sight gag -- and in the unlikeliest place -- in
L'Argent.
When the police stake-out for the axe murderer is in full swing, we see an
ordinary Parisian walking right through the middle of it reading his
newspaper;
he looks up and sees that he is more or less surrounded by SWAT team cops
and rushes off-screen in a (Bressonian) panic. Very funny and quite a
surprise.
g
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
10279
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed May 26, 2004 11:21pm
Subject: Bresson and Monty Python
On the commentary track for the MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL
laserdisc, one of the Python writers talks about how awful he felt
when LANCELOT DU LAC was released in the UK, after their film opened,
because the scenes of bloodshed in the beginning and end of Bresson's
film were - quite accidentally, of course, so similar to the scenes of
bloodshed in HOLY GRAIL.
No point to this story, of course, but rather amusing.
A fair amount of humor in BALTHAZAR - the donkey that can count, the
bad biker boys who grease the road to make cars slip off and crash, etc.
-Jaime
10280
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:10am
Subject: re: Bresson and Monty Python
Thanks, Jaime, for mentioning this connection between LANCELOT and MONTY
PYTHON! It is something I remember with vivid embarrassment: Bresson's film
first reached Australia when the the Python film was a huge youth cult - and
I remember a supposedly 'sacred' first screening of LANCELOT amid a large
university crowd where EVERYONE (except me, I think) roared laughing for
about ten minutes when the famous severed-limbs-in-walking-tin-cans scene
came on - precisely because everyone took it (erroneously it turns out) as
the somber model for what Python had parodied.
Some of these youthful types at the time probably also heard the name
'Pasolini' for the first time in their lives during a Monty Python TV skit
that parodied his (and also Sergio Leone's) style. And there was another
British comedy series of that time where a gang of crooks in jail formed the
'Godard Appreciation Society' ...
Australia is awash with this sort of British humour!!!
Adrian
10281
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:18am
Subject: Re: auteurs and Monty Python
> Some of these youthful types at the time probably also heard the name
> 'Pasolini' for the first time in their lives during a Monty Python
TV skit
> that parodied his (and also Sergio Leone's) style. And there was another
> British comedy series of that time where a gang of crooks in jail
formed the
> 'Godard Appreciation Society' ...
Very vividly (as I have the DVD box set of the entire series of the
"Flying Circus") I remember one MP sketch involving a police inspector
arresting a man impersonating Luchino Visconti, and one of the gags
is, the policeman goes into some detail describing Visconti's acclaim.
Well-educated, those Pythons!
-Jaime
10282
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:29am
Subject: Re: Bresson and Monty Python
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley" wrote:
>
> A fair amount of humor in BALTHAZAR - the donkey that can count [...]
As I recall, it even begins with a chuckle of sorts, as Balthazar's bray interrupts the ethereal Schubert sonata on the soundtrack. Part of the bitter joke
may lie in Bresson's anticipation of an artless audience's similar response to his own solemn music...
10283
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:44am
Subject: Re: Bresson and Monty Python
> As I recall, it even begins with a chuckle of sorts, as Balthazar's
> bray interrupts the ethereal Schubert sonata on the soundtrack. Part
> of the bitter joke may lie in Bresson's anticipation of an artless
> audience's similar response to his own solemn music...
You know, personally, I "detected" the joke there (a precise
juxtaposition of musical opposites, a la the title sequence for FUNNY
GAMES) but even with my very first exposure to the film, with no prior
knowledge of that juxaposition, I felt that it was among the saddest
moments in a film (that was to be) filled with sad moments. Not many
films cause me to slow down and think about a blank space, a complete
void, even in memory of viewing the film, but BALTHAZAR does. The
only film that knocks me from every conceivable rail. The only film,
period.
-Jaime
10284
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:02am
Subject: Re: Marxist Spielberg
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The most famous sequence - the little girl in red - which
does
> > come
> > > from the book, is based on a simple fact of perception: when we
> > look
> > > at a large event with many figures moving about in it, we focus
> on
> > > one. Wordsworth wrote a lovely sonnet about that, one of many
> poems
> > > in his oeuvre about a moment of consciousness-of-self triggered
> by
> > > contemplation of a natural scene (in this case, actually, a
mixed
> > on:
> > > ships in London harbor seen from a height).
> >
> Actaully it's the one that starts "With ships the sea was
sprinkled
> far and wide," but that's pretty good JP!
> > "Ships, towers, domes, theatres, and temples lie/Open unto
> the
> > fields, and to the sky.../ And all that mighty heart is lying
> still."
Sorry, wrong sonnet. I should have known you were not going to be
so obvious as to quote from one of his most famous pieces! Still,
Earth has not anything to show more fair (He was right, I was there).
JPC
JPC
10285
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 2:05am
Subject: Re: auteurs and Monty Python
> > Some of these youthful types at the time probably also heard the name
>> 'Pasolini' for the first time in their lives during a Monty Python
>TV skit
>> that parodied his (and also Sergio Leone's) style. And there was another
>> British comedy series of that time where a gang of crooks in jail
>formed the
>> 'Godard Appreciation Society' ...
>
>Very vividly (as I have the DVD box set of the entire series of the
>"Flying Circus") I remember one MP sketch involving a police inspector
>arresting a man impersonating Luchino Visconti, and one of the gags
>is, the policeman goes into some detail describing Visconti's acclaim.
They also had a whole series of skits that were supposedly "directed
by Sam Peckinpah."
Doug
10286
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 3:09am
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
> So what are we talking about now? Can we bring this back to the
> film, maybe?
>
> -Jaime
OK, I don't want to see embedded commercials in movies even if they're
for 100% organic free range non-polluting recycled products made by
labor working 20 hours per week for 60 hours pay with maternity leave
for both spouses even if they're of the same gender and 150% of the
corporate profits going to orphans and endagered species.
-Sam
10287
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 3:53am
Subject: Re: Product Placement
My own favorite example of product placement was Pepsi-Cola board
member Joan Crawford's insistence that William Castle place Pepsi on
the kitchen counter in Strait Jacket -- the pause that refreshes for
serial ax murderers. A nice additional post-modern touch: one of
the victims in the movie was an actual Pepsi-Cola vice-president
(Mitchell Cox).
10288
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 3:57am
Subject: Re: Re: Anatomie de l'enfer
> You mean she has to make more than one film about this
> to qualify as obsessed?
I've been avoiding the plot descriptions, so I don't know yet what
ANATOMY is about. But you have to do something more than once for it to
be an obsession. - Dan
10289
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:40am
Subject: Re: Gap Me If You Can
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> Not just out of curiosity, but how do you feel about MINORITY REPORT
> on the whole?
Well, to me it seemed like business as usual: a couple of matchlessly
dynamic thrill-ride setpieces (the best in the business), some black
humor for the arty crowd (the Dr. Eyeball sequence), some enjoyable
sci-fi juvenalia (those spider thingies), gobs of depressive male
weepie stuff (his virtual snapshots of the son), a completely loony
premise (the wooden balls of pre-criminality), some New Age-y vibes
(woozy pre-cogs sitting in a pool), plus Spielberg's customary
inability to find a satisfactory ending. The visuals were fine,
especially since Janusz Kaminski retired the cathedral lighting for
awhile. All I see is the formula, but that's how I remember the
film.
>
> > At least Troy didn't immerse us in the carnival
> > of capitalism (unless you want to count Brad Pitt as a product
> > himself).
>
> Okay, great, but it's a worthless film in every respect. A product
> placement might have broken the tedium.
>
Fighting pixels! What could be more exciting?
--Robert Keser
10290
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:44am
Subject: Re: auteurs and Monty Python
Slightly OT: Is it just my wishful thinking, or is that a very young
Catherine Zeta-Jones jogging topless in slow-motion, leading the
soccer-garbed beauteous executioners in the skit of the man who
picked his method of death near the end of Meaning of Life?
10291
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:47am
Subject: BackLot Pass from Fox Movie Channel
I caught this info following a viewing of PANIC IN THE
STREETS (which ought to be used for screenwriting classes).
FMC retrieved from the underground salt mine vaults 1 hour reels
(OX-BOW INCIDENT, CALVACADE, MIRACLE on 34th STREET)
made for TV screenings in the the mid-fifties as THE 20th Century Fox
Movie Hour.
A few weeks back I noted an OX-BOW INCIDENT TV screening, but did
not view it as I thought it was the original (should have checked the
date). Later, I read in somebody's post it was a shorter version.
Was it one of the BackLot Pass from Fox Movie Channel screenings?
Does anyone know anything about this interesting historical find?
There are 37 episodes. Here are some of the titles:
OPERATION CICERO, THE LAST PATRIARCH, CITY IN FLAMES,
SPRINGFIELD INCIDENT, CHILD OF THE REGIMENT, BROKEN ARROW,
GUN IN HIS HAND, MR BELVEDERE, LAURA, STRANGER IN THE
NIGHT, DEEP WATER, THE LATE GEORGE APLEY
Elizabeth
10292
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: BackLot Pass from Fox Movie Channel
http://www.foxmoviechannel.com/hourofstars/index.asp
info site for FMC hour of the stars
10293
From: Hadrian
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:51am
Subject: The Product as Auteur
There is a long history to product placements, that does
extend back into the 40's and 50's –if the products seemed
generic, I'm sure it was producer's timidity concerning trademark
laws and clearances (it's still standard practice to tell film
students to black out all the logos). Moreover, entire films are
often funded by specific companies hoping to create positive
feeling for their brand (Exxon-Mobil Theatre, etc,). I remember
seeing a drive-in movie called "Mag Wheels" where the producer
of the film also owned the decal company that decorated all the
Vans the plot revolved around. So, to a certain extent, I accept
them as a necessary element of commercial filmmaking –-you
want to make a movie, someone's gonna get fellated. Unless
your as rich as Henry Jaglom, and he just fellates himself.
However, there are egregious cases, and for better or
worse, I find myself coming to a strange idea: the brand as
auteur, the corporation as the driving creative force behind a film.
Speilberg's instincts seem simply that of a sharp entrepeneur
inculcating all possible resources to his own ends--- the
Reese's Pieces in E.T. could just have easily been M & M's. I
doubt he cared, as long as they functioned within his vision. He
just doesn't care. What is far more strange is when a film's
internal logic or even plot are sacrificed for the apparently larger
agenda. The film isn't just full of ads, it IS an ad. A couple
examples:
"Mac and Me" -- an E.T. ripoff,which is basically a vehicle
for hooking kids on Big Macs (fast forward to 5 minute musical
sequence set in McDonalds)
"Italian Job" –the only way the heist can be accomplished
is with a small, fast, manouverable car, like the Minicoop
conveniently hitting market at same time!
"You've Got Mail" –aside from the horrifying title-slogan
confluence, you have a plot that requires it's endless repetition
both audially and visually. As a bonus, the essential meaning of
film is that one should accept the death of small business at the
altar of centralized chains; it's better for everyone.
"Castaway" Now, not only is this film a cluttered with
clustered Fedex products, climaxing in a backdrop tableaux at
the airport of logos overlapping like some kind of Hockney, but
it's central plot elements all serve as extensions of Fedex
ideology. Hanks' character is introduced giving a speech to the
new recruits, and his character is established as an efficient,
resourceful, industrious, methodical, hard-working, and
obsessively timely –in short the ideal Fedex employee.
In fact, so industrious is this uber-Fedex golem that
castaway on a desert island becomes just another challenge to
solve. And, he is as true to his character as a farce machine-cog;
when Fedex packages of obvious potential use wash ashore
(conveniently leading to product placements on a desert
island!), he's so brainwashed with Fedex ideology he doesn't
immediately rip those packages to shreds. Though, when he
finally does, after much suffering, he uses them as a kind of bed,
and in some bizarre loyalty to the Fedex flag he leaves one
unopened (one for his homies).
Still, what truly reveals the core idea of "Castaway" is it's=
ending, which isn't, as you would think, the reconciliation with his
family and loved ones. No, "Castaway" climaxes, when Tom
Hanks looks on the address of that last unopened Fedex
envelope, tracks down the address, and with the beauty of a Visa
ad, THE PACKAGE GETS DELIVERED.
Throw in army recruitment movies (any number of Disney
sports films) and musical stars showpieces (Hillary Duff, Britney
Spears), and there's a thesis paper in here somewhere. On a
final note, my favorite absurd product placement shoe-horned in
at complete expense of film integrity: "A Knights Tale" where a
Nike logo is burned into our hero's armor. he ask's why, and his
hot young lady blacksmith explains, "it's a mark of quality for all
to admire". Deal with that.
10294
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:51am
Subject: American Idol
Even more OT: Did anyone tape TUESDAY night's American Idol episode?
My ex-wife thought Fantasia Barrino's performance last night showed
her to be the best thing since Aretha Franklin, but my ex-wife
doesn't know how to use a VCR to record something. Anyone?
10295
From: Hadrian
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:08am
Subject: Re: our favorite
> "I haven't seen his latest film, but that won't stop me from
talking about it," he told reporters.
> Godard....called Moore "halfway intelligent." Without
elaborating, Godard said films like Moore's weren't having the
desired effect.
> "I think they help Bush," he told reporters. "In a very vicious way
that they (the directors) are not conscious of."
> "Bush is less stupid than (Moore) thinks," he said. "Or else
he's so stupid that he can't
> change."
I was hoping perhaps it was just a polite silence, in the
presence of the master, because I found these remarks typically
grumpy and ridiculous (like blaming Speilberg for the decline of
Western civ).
I personally think that Godard is a poor judge of propaganda,
and in this case, he's the one being "halfway intelligent".
Godard's own attempts at propaganda (the Dziga-Vertov) films
are complete failures if judged by the criteria of their ability to
convince. What I've seen has seemed incomprehensible to
people not already intimately familiar with the subject matter; a
classic case of preaching to the converted.
On the other hand, I think Moore's films are less stupid than
Godard thinks. Moore plays dumb, but these films are extremely
canny --in fact one of his major criticisms is his willingness to
bend every fact to his agenda.
Moore's is playing to the masses, and his agenda is definitely
conversion --not of the idealogues, but of the wavering middle,
the unsure. If what I hear is true about test screenings, then
judged as a 2 hour political ad, this his latest was a raging
success. What can verify is the effect I've seen "Bowling For
Columbine" had at politicizing people i knew generally
disinterested in politics, and radicalizing the already inclined.
The way his films are structured are surely not subtle enough for
Godard's high intellectual sensibility, but far more appropriate to
their goals. His goals are to dress his arguments in an film
that's affable, fun, and full of folksy common-sense --just what
american's like. His portrayal of Bush as stupid is obviously for
laughs, and it's important in that it helps make Bush seem
beatable (hope is an essential element of any movement). Of
course Bush isn't stupid, but i'd be surprised if Moore portrays
his administration, and his party, as less diabolically clever than
they actually are. In dealing with Americans, and the working
class, I think Godard is out of his element .
10296
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:16am
Subject: Re: our favorite
Of course Bush isn't stupid, but i'd be surprised if Moore portrays
> his administration, and his party, as less diabolically clever than
> they actually are. In dealing with Americans, and the working
> class, I think Godard is out of his element.
Actually, if Bush had written anything by which his IQ could be
measured, it's likely that it would be around 91. He's certainly the
stupidest man ever to be President, although I'm sure Gerald Ford is
a close second.
10297
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:22am
Subject: Re: BackLot Pass from Fox Movie Channel
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> http://www.foxmoviechannel.com/hourofstars/index.asp
> info site for FMC hour of the stars
OX-BOW was the first film directed by Gerd Oswald, a Sarris
Expressive Esoterica director enslaved to Darryl Zanuck, who would
have preferred to keep him around doing brilliant second unit pieces:
the murder in Niagra, the Red Buttons sequence in Zanuck's own The
Longest Day. His OX-BOW actually quite good -- not as good as the
Wellman (look at the cast), but also very diferent from the Wellman.
It's a paranoid western in the same expressionist style Oswald used
later to great effect in The Brass Legend and Showdown at Fury, two
films that are very hard to see.
10298
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:34am
Subject: Re: Re: auteurs and Monty Python
> Slightly OT: Is it just my wishful thinking, or is that a very young
> Catherine Zeta-Jones jogging topless in slow-motion, leading the
> soccer-garbed beauteous executioners in the skit of the man who
> picked his method of death near the end of Meaning of Life?
Don't know, but according to the IMDb she was 13 when the film was
released. - Dan
10299
From: Hadrian
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 6:26am
Subject: Re: our favorite
> Actually, if Bush had written anything by which his IQ could be
> measured, it's likely that it would be around 91. He's certainly
the
> stupidest man ever to be President, although I'm sure Gerald Ford
is
> a close second.
Does that mean you disagree with Godard?
Seriously, I watched the "Journeys with George" documentary, and it
did make me think he's a dangerous man to underestimate. He was
very fast on his feet, and capable of some serious manipulation --he
did charm that press plane, and that's no small accomplishment.
Considering the difficulty of maintaining a totally false persona
for very long stretches of time, his vocal flubs seemed more a fault
of improvisational acting skills than IQ. Bill Clinton was a kind of
perfomance genius --there's an very interesting essay by Arthur
Miller about the connections between actors and politicians, that
seems relevant here...
I agree Bush may be dumb as presidents go, but i'm sure that's a
high average --
10300
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:41am
Subject: Re: our favorite
>Actually, if Bush had written anything by which his IQ could be
>measured, it's likely that it would be around 91. He's certainly the
>stupidest man ever to be President, although I'm sure Gerald Ford is
>a close second.
Doesn't Al Franken report Bush's SAT scores, math and verbal
combined, to add up in the 700s? (At least that's what a neighbor
told me.)
--
- Joe Kaufman
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