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25001
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> Back in 1977 I passed up an opportunity to see Chabrol's ALICE OU LA
> DERNIERE FUGUE, with Kristel, and it has never come around again.
I am searching for it too.
>
> > Can anyone here reccomend some good
> > Erotic (not porn!) films of the 70's, early 80's period??
>
Tinto Brass (anything), Walerian Borowczyc (The Beast). Two films seen
in my trudge through serial killer teritory that I recommend highly:
Daughters of Darkenss and Edge of Sanity, an unrated Jekyll and Hyde
film by a French porn director starring Anthony Perkins in his last
role - a very good performance. For some reason it's the only film that
proposes that Jekyll/Hyde was Jack the Ripper. ("These crimes were
obviously the work of a skilled surgeon...") Unless you count Doctor
Jekyll and Sister Hyde, Hammer Films' QED of which Martine Beswick is
the axiom.
25002
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:59pm
Subject: Re: Francis Copious hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 06:23 AM, hotlove666 wrote:
> >
> > Poor credit rating.
>
> What's the latest on his attempts to finance 'Megalopolis'? I take
it
> he hasn't gotten very far?
I haven't heard. He was working on it 2 years ago - nothing since. I'd
sure like to see it.
25003
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:53pm
Subject: Re: directors left out hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
> Where does Just Jaeckin stand in our recent ratings of directors? Does
> he get a mention?
Olivier Assayas rightly noted in disgusted capsule review of one of his
films that he had no gift for eroticism whatsoever.
What about Fulci?
Ah, that's a different matter....
>
> By the way, JP, I remember you showed some disdain at my earlier
> mention of Lina Wertmüller. Any reason??? I remember some very
> powerful scenes from "Seven Beauties", particularly where Giancarlo
> Giannini was debasing himself for the sadistic female guard in order
> to ingratiate himself and, of course, the scene where he has to shoot
> his friend at the end and the friend says, "better you than someone
> else".
Brunp Bettelheim, a camp survivor, wrote a furious article on this film
in The New Yorker where he pointed out that the SS had such contempt
for traitors that someone like Giannini would've been killed...by them.
where do you place Sylvia Kristel?
We are all in her debt.
25004
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:57pm
Subject: Re: directors left out hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> By the way, Saul, I just realized that I have my "Quills" article in
> my computer. I'll just e-mail it to you.
I kind of liked it...better than Sade! I wish to God they'd turn Phil
K. loose again with a real budget and an all-American genre to revive
(like that Aquaman project someone mentioned), instead of all this
wannabe Eurotrash stuff. If only he hadn't turned down directing
Raiders to do Josey Wales, he might have been a central figure of 80s
and 90s H'wd cinema.
25005
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:18pm
Subject: Re: Francis Copious (Megalopolis) habelove
According to the IMDB Megalopolis is in production, and shooting in NY...
25006
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:16pm
Subject: Re: Francis Copious habelove
He's busy selling wine and pasta. My friend James Healey at Fantomas got to
release One From the Heart because his office was next to the Zoetrope office, and
described a business meeting where they showed a pie chart of Coppola's income
--directing was a very small slice. He has great passion for his business. In fact,
Healy implied most of the film's he's done lately have been when his own company
in San Fransisco needed an influx of cash.
Hadrian
25007
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) sallitt1
> Tinto Brass (anything)
Is CALIGULA representative? I may also have seen MADAM KITTY - it's all
getting vague....
> Walerian Borowczyc (The Beast)
In a Travis Bickle-like move, I once took a very nice UCLA coed to see
this on our first date. I don't know what I was thinking.... - Dan
25008
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Feminism? cellar47
--- Matt Teichman wrote:
While such notions as femininity are
> thought usually to be
> ideologically opressive, there also seems to be an
> interest in studying
> "alternative" engagements with femininity which,
> through a certain kind
> of misreading, open up possibilities for it as a
> liberating force.
>
>
And that's where you'll find Laura Antonelli --
especialy in Visconti's "The Innocent."
As for Just Jaekin, no one so far has mentioned "The
Adventures of Gwendolyn in the Land of the Yik-Yak"
starring former O.J. plaything Tawney Kittaen and the
babe-a-licious Brent Huff.
Not exactly "The Tiger of Eschnapur." In fact not
exactly "Tarzan and the Lost City" either.
Eroticism is a gossamer thing -- stomped to
nothingness by the Catherine Breillats of this world.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
25009
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Tinto Brass (anything)
>
> Is CALIGULA representative? I may also have seen MADAM KITTY - it's
all
> getting vague....
>
> > Walerian Borowczyc (The Beast)
>
> In a Travis Bickle-like move, I once took a very nice UCLA coed to
see
> this on our first date. I don't know what I was thinking.... - Dan
In my recollection, "The Beast" was not the least bit erotic. But
then I can think of very few "erotic" films that I found actually
erotic (i.e.: that turned me on). JPC
25010
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:33pm
Subject: Count Your Blessings (Was: 25 Directors) blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Counting directors before going to sleep sounds so sweet.
>
> "When I'm awake and I can't sleep
> I count directors instead of sheep..."
>
>
> (David will know that one I'm sure)
>
Hey, of course he does. But I know a few songs too, JPC. And
"Count Your Blessings" is one I've always loved.
Jazz fans should be aware that Sonny Rollins gives a beautiful
reading to this on SONNY ROLLINS+4, one of his greatest albums
(1956), with Clifford Brown on the other four tracks but not
on "Blessings."
And yes, I know this is completely OT. Maybe if I speculated on
whether Sonny is gay...or Rosemary Clooney...
25011
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Feminism? jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
>
> Eroticism is a gossamer thing -- stomped to
> nothingness by the Catherine Breillats of this world.
>
> I agree. Yet, I found the bondage scenes in ROMANCE quite
affecting.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
25012
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:05pm
Subject: Re: Count Your Blessings (Was: 25 Directors) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> > Counting directors before going to sleep sounds so sweet.
> >
> > "When I'm awake and I can't sleep
> > I count directors instead of sheep..."
> >
> >
> > (David will know that one I'm sure)
> >
>
> Hey, of course he does. But I know a few songs too, JPC. And
> "Count Your Blessings" is one I've always loved.
>
> Jazz fans should be aware that Sonny Rollins gives a beautiful
> reading to this on SONNY ROLLINS+4, one of his greatest albums
> (1956), with Clifford Brown on the other four tracks but not
> on "Blessings."
>
> And yes, I know this is completely OT. Maybe if I speculated on
> whether Sonny is gay...or Rosemary Clooney...
As a Rollins fan from way back, I'm glad you mentioned it. The
album has the great Clifford Brown composition "Valse Hot" (quite
complex melodically and harmonically, and one the the very first 3/4
time jazz tunes), "I Feel a Song Coming On," "Pentup House," "Kiss
and Run". What an album!I must have listened to it hundreds of times.
I'll never forget a late night at the Village Vanguard in the mid-
sixties when he improvised for more than 30 minutes non-stop on a
string of ballads, walking up and down the stage all the while...
Rollins has always been a great finder of unexpected pop songs that
have never been in the jazz repertoire. Check out "Sweet Leilani"
and "The Moon of Manakoora" in the CD "This Is What I Do" (2000). JPC
25013
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:18pm
Subject: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) sallitt1
>> Eroticism is a gossamer thing -- stomped to
>> nothingness by the Catherine Breillats of this world.
This baffles me. When Breillat tries for eroticism, as in 36 FILLETTE and
ROMANCE, the approach is slow, people-oriented, and full of anticipation.
Sometimes there is no payoff, which may be erotic or anti-erotic,
depending on one's taste, but which is not any kind of stomping. - Dan
25014
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:17pm
Subject: Re: directors left out/New Look jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
>
>
>.
>
> >
> > By the way, Saul, I just realized that I have my "Quills" article
in
> > my computer. I'll just e-mail it to you. You'll have to give me
your full e-mail address, because The New Look no longer allows
personal e-mails, apparently...
> >
> > JPC
25015
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:02pm
Subject: Re: Count Your Blessings (Was: 25 Directors) blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> As a Rollins fan from way back, I'm glad you mentioned it. The
> album has the great Clifford Brown composition "Valse Hot" (quite
> complex melodically and harmonically, and one the the very first
3/4
> time jazz tunes), "I Feel a Song Coming On," "Pentup House," "Kiss
> and Run". What an album!I must have listened to it hundreds of
times.
>
> I'll never forget a late night at the Village Vanguard in the
mid-
> sixties when he improvised for more than 30 minutes non-stop on a
> string of ballads, walking up and down the stage all the while...
>
> Rollins has always been a great finder of unexpected pop songs
that
> have never been in the jazz repertoire. Check out "Sweet Leilani"
> and "The Moon of Manakoora" in the CD "This Is What I Do" (2000).
JPC
We certainly agree about that album--PLUS 4. I've listened to it
hundreds of times too. But I thought Rollins himself wrote "Valse
Hot" (as well as the marvelous "Pent Up House")--he is credited on
my copy of the album. Is that wrong? It's great either way and
these are certainly two of the greatest musicians who ever graced
the planet. One of the reasons I like this particular album so much
is that Brown is on it (only a few months before the fatal car
accident that also took excellent pianist Richie Powell who also
plays so well on this).
I used to see Rollins live in the 60s too and enjoyed those same
experiences of him going effortlessly from one tune to another
--is there any song he doesn't know? Once at the Jazz Workshop, he
was in the middle of a very adventurous improvisation and somehow at
the perfect moment he segued into one chorus, played straight, and
absolutely gorgeous of "I Have Dreamed" from THE KING AND I.
I have THIS IS WHAT I DO (still his most recent album, isn't it?)
with those unexpected songs you mention. His flair for finding
these things other jazz musicians don't play and making them such
wonderful jazz tracks is one of the things I love most about him--
"I'm an Old Cowhand," "Wonderful Wonderful," "Rockabye Your Baby
with a Dixie Melody"...I could go on and on but so could you I'm
sure. And then there's his incredible formal command, great sense
of humor and that beautiful, virile sound of his horn...
Blake
25016
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Tinto Brass (anything)
>
> Is CALIGULA representative?
No.
25017
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"...I even spent a fair amount of time looking up Caputi's sources --
eg an article on early gyneocological practices that included
castrating women who were unruly or had too much desire."
Are you referring to clitorectomy here? If, so the practice still
occurs in parts of Africa. The UN and WHO have been trying to
discourage this for years.
Since the 1980s there's been a split in feminist thinking on
sexuality, pornography and the representation of women. It started
at the NOW Conference on Women's Sexuality held at Barnard College in
1981. The conservative view was represented by Andrea Dworkin and
Catherine MacKinnon who got a lot of mainstream press, especially
during the Reagan era (MacKinnon is a lawyer who drafted anti-porn
legislation for various cities and states; I think most of it was
struck down in higher courts.)
The other side is represented by the anthologies "Pleasure and
Danger" edited by Carol S. Vance and "Powers of Desire" edited by Ann
Snitow. More recently Linda Williams, Constance Penley and Laura
Kipnis have written "pro-porn" books. Penley (who wrote some good
stuff about Jacques Tourneur) has a good book called "The Future of
an Illusion: Film, Feminism and Psychoanalysis." So there's a range
of feminist thinking on these issues. By thw way,did you read "Of
Men,Women and Chainsaws" for your serial killer book?
Richard
25018
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:20pm
Subject: Tinto Brass (Was: Erotic, not porn) sallitt1
>>> Tinto Brass (anything)
>>
>> Is CALIGULA representative?
>
> No.
So what are some representative titles? - Dan
25019
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> "...I even spent a fair amount of time looking up Caputi's sources --
> eg an article on early gyneocological practices that included
> castrating women who were unruly or had too much desire."
>
> Are you referring to clitorectomy here?
No - removal of ovaries, which is the part the Ripper always carried off from his
victims. It's possible that some of these loony mid-century American gynecologists
recommended clitorectimies.
A cut scene from Joe Dante's The Second Civil war has feminists demonstrating
against clitorectomies outside a mosque in Maine.
>
> Since the 1980s there's been a split in feminist thinking on
> sexuality, pornography and the representation of women.
I know - I gather that Madonna was important to that. Researching the bg of Caputi's
book I found an attack by Dworkin on Story of O (in the crumbling second issue of
Feminist Studies!). It's actually very interesting. She said she "bought" the book as
liberating at first, then decided to take it literally and changed her mind. Ted Bundy
says that rape-torture-bondage porn helped make him a serial killer. It may have at
that. I see no reason to rule out common sense in these discussions just because
it's obvious or uninteresting.
By the way,did you read "Of
> Men,Women and Chainsaws" for your serial killer book?
It's not bad. I think she invented the term "final girl," one of my favorite termes d'art
re: this subject matter. She's focused on slasher films and rape-revenge, but
slashers can't simply be ruled out of court if you're talking about serial killers.
25020
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:42pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
> This baffles me. When Breillat tries for eroticism,
> as in 36 FILLETTE and
> ROMANCE, the approach is slow, people-oriented, and
> full of anticipation.
> Sometimes there is no payoff, which may be erotic or
> anti-erotic,
> depending on one's taste, but which is not any kind
> of stomping.
So are we to take "Anatomy of Hell" to be brisk romp a
la Leo McCarey?
Breillat's films make me want to vomit.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
25021
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> Breillat's films make me want to vomit.
I think that's the idea, isn't it?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
25022
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) jaloysius56
I wouldn't say that Breillat tries for eroticism. Moreover, her
movies are fundamentally anti-erotic to me. The rawness of her icy
shots appears likely to prevent any desire. The uneasiness excludes
any voyeurism, preferred system of erotic scenes. As Dan, I'm
clueless trying to understand where is the stomping here, notably
considering the intelligence of her work with actors (Chicot is
sublime in 36 Fillette). The obsessional accompanying discourse (is
the stomping there?), sometimes omnipresent, participates, precisely
through its obsessional nature, in the force of the images'
questioning.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> >> Eroticism is a gossamer thing -- stomped to
> >> nothingness by the Catherine Breillats of this world.
>
> This baffles me. When Breillat tries for eroticism, as in 36
FILLETTE and
> ROMANCE, the approach is slow, people-oriented, and full of
anticipation.
> Sometimes there is no payoff, which may be erotic or anti-erotic,
> depending on one's taste, but which is not any kind of stomping. -
Dan
25023
From: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:52pm
Subject: New file uploaded to a_film_by a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the a_film_by
group.
File : /0AMERICAN CINEMA.doc
Uploaded by : rfkeser
Description : American Cinema Update: Keser
You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/files/0AMERICAN%20CINEMA.doc
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,
rfkeser
25024
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:56pm
Subject: American Cinema Update rfkeser
Okay, my contribution to updating Sarris's American Cinema is now
posted as a document in the afb files. (I tried Excel but my
equipment balked). That really *is* a huge job!
--Robert Keser
25025
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:51pm
Subject: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you can think of ten...
Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's always interesting to
find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
25026
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:57pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you can think of ten...
> Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's always interesting to
> find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
JP - I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!
25027
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:59pm
Subject: Re: American Cinema Update jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>
> Okay, my contribution to updating Sarris's American Cinema is now
> posted as a document in the afb files. (I tried Excel but my
> equipment balked). That really *is* a huge job!
>
> --Robert Keser
Huge, rich and strange...
Peter Watkins is both in the Pantheon and "Far Side of Paradise"???
Cassavetes is "strained seriousness"? Along with Spielberg?
But sure, lists are fun...
JPC
25028
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 0:01am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> >
> > So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you can think of
ten...
> > Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's always interesting
to
> > find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
>
> JP - I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!
Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd love to know what
turns you on on screen. JPC
25029
From: "Saul"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 0:10am
Subject: Re: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> > Back in 1977 I passed up an opportunity to see Chabrol's ALICE OU LA
> > DERNIERE FUGUE, with Kristel, and it has never come around again.
>
> I am searching for it too.
Dan and Bill: Are you guys searching for this film at a cinema
screening, or just for a copy full stop? I'm pretty sure it's
available, if not on dvd then on vhs. I have a feeling Polygram Video
released it in the early 80's. I'm sure I could find it on the Net
somewhere.
25030
From: "Saul"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 0:18am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> >
> > JP - I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!
>
> Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd love to know what
> turns you on on screen. JPC
I think this conversation is starting to get interesting. As you've
already told us JP that you don't find most erotic films erotic, (i.e.
they don't turn you on) why don't you start with your ten favourite
films/scenes and then I'll try and think of mine............. perhaps
others will follow our lead and be encouraged to join.....(is this
more of an OT or offline kind of discussion?)
What role do we think sexual arousal has to play in luring audiences
into the cinema (and not even in 'erotic' films per se, but in regular
mainstream fare)???
25031
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 0:50am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>>
> I think this conversation is starting to get interesting. As you've
> already told us JP that you don't find most erotic films erotic,
(i.e.
> they don't turn you on) why don't you start with your ten favourite
> films/scenes and then I'll try and think of mine............. perhaps
> others will follow our lead and be encouraged to join.....(is this
> more of an OT or offline kind of discussion?)
>
> What role do we think sexual arousal has to play in luring audiences
> into the cinema (and not even in 'erotic' films per se, but in
regular
> mainstream fare)???
Traditionally, it has always been assumed that sexual arousal, or
at least sexual attraction (as to the stars on the screen) was a major
motivation for people to go to movies. In spite of a lot of anecdotal
evidence supporting this theory (especially in the earlier days of
film history) I have always doubted its validity without having any
proof to support my hunch (I haven't really researched it or even
thought about it much).
Because my religion strictly forbids the making of lists, I must
decline -- although the real reason is that I couldn't come up with
enough items to fill a ten-best list. Then again some people have come
up with entire books on "Eroticism in Cinema" (the notorious
Surrealist Ado Kyrou, inter alia).
My list, should I be able to come up with one, would probably be
mostly from so-called "mainstream" movies... Maybe I shall risk
excommunication and come up with one... But ONLY if Bill does too.
JPC
25032
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:33am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On rfkeser
hotlove666 wrote: "I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!"
JPC wrote: "Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd love to
know what turns you on on screen."
He's got a ten-foot pole: that must be really hard to hide.
--Robert Keser
25033
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:38am
Subject: Re: American Cinema Update rfkeser
"jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> Huge, rich and strange...
>
> Peter Watkins is both in the Pantheon and "Far Side of Paradise"???
He got a last-minute upgrade to the Pantheon.
> Cassavetes is "strained seriousness"? Along with Spielberg?
Yes, I'm sticking with that.
--Robert Keser
25034
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:42am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) cellar47
Then include me out.
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Breillat's films make me want to vomit.
>
> I think that's the idea, isn't it?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources
> site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
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25035
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:59am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>
>
> hotlove666 wrote: "I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!"
>
> JPC wrote: "Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd love
to
> know what turns you on on screen."
>
> He's got a ten-foot pole: that must be really hard to hide.
>
> --Robert Keser
I almost made that joke, but decided it was embedded into his
response, so what's the use? JPC
25036
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:03am
Subject: Re: American Cinema Update jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>
> "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> >
> > Huge, rich and strange...
> >
> > Peter Watkins is both in the Pantheon and "Far Side of
Paradise"???
>
> He got a last-minute upgrade to the Pantheon.
>
Any last minute reason? Sounds like the last minute reprieve from
the Governor in old movies. JPC
25037
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:25am
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
Somebody was asking for a ten-foot pole :
http://www.cockybastard.com/bm/99/gallery/jimpenis.jpg
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If
> you can think of
> ten...
> > > Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's
> always interesting
> to
> > > find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
> >
> > JP - I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot
> pole!
>
> Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd
> love to know what
> turns you on on screen. JPC
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
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25038
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:49am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you
> can think of ten...
> Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's
> always interesting to
> find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
>
>
>
>
Well let's see now.
There's that old stand-by, the Alan Bates/Oliver Reed
wrestling scene in Larry Kramer's "Women in Love"
The diamonds and fireworks scene in "To Catch a Thief"
is pretty damned sensational.
Alain Delon kissing himself in the mirror in "Purple
Noon."
The Bathtub Chess scene in "The Talented Mr. Ripley"
Julie Christie going down on Warren Beatty in the
Bistro Gardens party scene in "Shampoo."
Marlene kissing a woman, and tossing a flower to Gary
Cooper in "Morocco"
Aidan Shaw getting it on with someone who looks a
whole lot like Vin Diesel in "Remembrance of Things
Fast"
Sarah Miles seducing James Fox in a wingedback chair
in "The Servant"
Vittorio Mezzogiorno cornering Jean-Hughes Anglade for
a smooch in the men's room in "L'Homme Blesse"
and the last scene on "Un condamne a mort s'echappe"
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25039
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Re: Tinto Brass (Was: Erotic, not porn) f_verissimo
> So what are some representative titles? - Dan
Dan,
These are arguably his best: LA CHIAVE (The Key, 1983, with Stefania
Sandrelli) and MIRANDA (85, with Serena Grandi).
I don't care much for his films and therefore didn't see many of his movies.
But I am very curious to watch his remake of SENSO when I have a chance.
fv
25040
From: "Saul"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:57am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> Traditionally, it has always been assumed that sexual arousal, or
> at least sexual attraction (as to the stars on the screen) was a major
> motivation for people to go to movies. In spite of a lot of anecdotal
> evidence supporting this theory (especially in the earlier days of
> film history) I have always doubted its validity without having any
> proof to support my hunch (I haven't really researched it or even
> thought about it much).
Yeah, I've heard that Edison's "Rice-Irwin Kiss" of 1896 was quite the
erotic film in its day, though to look at it now you'd have to wonder
why - though I do love how Rice twiddles his moustache right before
planting that kiss (but it's been years since I saw this film...)
> Because my religion strictly forbids the making of lists, I must
> decline -- although the real reason is that I couldn't come up with
> enough items to fill a ten-best list. Then again some people have come
> up with entire books on "Eroticism in Cinema" (the notorious
> Surrealist Ado Kyrou, inter alia).
>
> My list, should I be able to come up with one, would probably be
> mostly from so-called "mainstream" movies... Maybe I shall risk
> excommunication and come up with one... But ONLY if Bill does too.
JP: many great men before you have suffered excommunication for their
art - while a list of movies/scenes that 'turned you on' may not be a
great work of art - I think it's worth it and I tingle with
anticipation at what you might come up with. Bill: if you're out there
reading, take up JP's challenge and post a list too so that we all
can read them...............................................
25041
From: "Saul"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
What a fantastic list David!
> Alain Delon kissing himself in the mirror in "Purple
> Noon."
Isn't it a given that anything with Delon is suffused with a deep
erotic air?
> Marlene kissing a woman, and tossing a flower to Gary
> Cooper in "Morocco"
Yes, yes and yes again. I think men-men/woman-woman scenes can be
intensely erotic in a way man-woman often misses out on, (though I
think that just comes down to the directors who pick homosexual topics).
25042
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:39am
Subject: Re: American Cinema Update rfkeser
"Robert Keser" wrote:
"[Peter Watkins] got a last-minute upgrade to the Pantheon".
"jpcoursodon" wrote:
"Any last minute reason? Sounds like the last minute reprieve from
the Governor in old movies."
Probably residual enthusiasm from seeing the strikingly original
EDVARD MUNCH twice in one week, and then (to my surprise) finding
that the February CdC allotted a dozen or so pages to him. MUNCH
progresses in a kind of continuous and fluid present tense, where
any single minute of film might include shots from up to eight
different times and places in the narrative, and these keep
alternating and contrasting and commenting on each other, making a
historical flow where everything seems to be happening
simultaneously. That Watkins is able to sustain this meaningfully
across three hours without repeating a single shot seems mighty
impressive to me. Oh, AND it's sexy too.
--Robert Keser
25043
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:15am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Well let's see now.
>
> There's that old stand-by, the Alan Bates/Oliver Reed
> wrestling scene in Larry Kramer's "Women in Love"
>
> The diamonds and fireworks scene in "To Catch a Thief"
> is pretty damned sensational.
>
> Alain Delon kissing himself in the mirror in "Purple
> Noon."
>
> The Bathtub Chess scene in "The Talented Mr. Ripley"
>
> Julie Christie going down on Warren Beatty in the
> Bistro Gardens party scene in "Shampoo."
>
> Marlene kissing a woman, and tossing a flower to Gary
> Cooper in "Morocco"
>
> Aidan Shaw getting it on with someone who looks a
> whole lot like Vin Diesel in "Remembrance of Things
> Fast"
>
> Sarah Miles seducing James Fox in a wingedback chair
> in "The Servant"
>
> Vittorio Mezzogiorno cornering Jean-Hughes Anglade for
> a smooch in the men's room in "L'Homme Blesse"
>
> and the last scene on "Un condamne a mort s'echappe"
>
>
> Interesting that the only member (pardon my French) who
accepted the challenge this far is our gay activist in residence.
Needless to say most of his choices have no erotic interest to me,
but that was the very point of my suggestion. Opening up to a
variety of erotic experiences. JPC
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
25044
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:23am
Subject: Fulci (was: directors left out) f_verissimo
> I just finished "City of the Living Dead" which got a dvd release
> here, restoring the scenes cut from the vhs release, and restoring the
> original ratio. Oh well, you miss (though I'm sure you don't mind
> missing this) a zombie priest causing a woman to puke out her guts and
> bleed from the eyeballs, and a scene where a man has a 12" drill bit
> inserted into his head and out the other side. Fulci always had a
> flair for gore, and I guess like many Italian directors has a feel
> for, in particular, the way he FRAMES a shot.
I did include Mario Bava in my list, irregular as his ouevre is, and that
was enough for displaying my fondness for italian horror. Anyway, I doubt
Fulci ever made anything better than TWITCH OF THE DEATH NERVE -- a film
that could be seen as one of the most radical essays on horror film
aesthetics. Bava uses the zoom (a feature exaustingly used in italian
horror) in a purely abstract way; sometimes as a critical device.
Fulci made so many awful films that I couldn't possibly offer any consistent
defense, although I like him, specially the films he made during the Fulvia
Film period.
CITY OF THE LIVING DEAD is a very disturbing film, the sickest in a long
list of sick films (much worst than THE NEW YORK RIPPER which has more
humour and a charming, cartoonesque, tong-in-cheeck approach). CITY is
possibly his darkest film: its construction is far more chaotic than
L'ALDILA, but in a bad sense. (CITY has its fans, anyway: I remember
Amenabar put some references to it in THE OTHERS).
His best are, IMO:
HOUSE BY THE CEMETERY -- which was intended as an answer to THE SHINING, a
film he despised; Dr. Freudstein is one of my favorite monsters of all time,
just for the sake of his incredible name.
DON'T TORTURE A DUCKLING -- arguably the best giallo ever made, and the most
controverted of them all. I doubt anyone could make this today, because of
its subject -- child-abbusing catholic priests -- in the way Fulci made it.
It caused him a lot of harassment at the time.
My personal favorite, actually, is not one of his best: NIGHTMARE CONCERT --
featuring himself as a horror filmmaker that starts to see rotting bodies
and severed, melting heads in his day-to-day life. He finally decides to go
find some medical help, but his psychiatrist turns into a murdering lunatic
after studying Fulci's films. This one is also very inventive in the way
Fulci inserts some scenes of his previous films as his bizarre fantasies.
fv
25045
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:34am
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> >
> > Interesting that the only member (pardon my
> French) who
> accepted the challenge this far is our gay activist
> in residence.
> Needless to say most of his choices have no erotic
> interest to me,
> but that was the very point of my suggestion.
> Opening up to a
> variety of erotic experiences.
Chaque a son goo, J-P. Moreover we're talking about
eroticism. I was trying to isolate instances that
produced an erotic frisson -- not simple depictions of
sex. Actual porn isn't erotic in the same way - and
often isn't erotic at all.
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
25046
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:38am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals bufordrat
hotlove666 wrote:
>>Obviously there shouldn't be anything wrong, per se, with films in which only women are killed.
>>
>>
>Yes there is something wrong with that.
>
What?
>> <>
>
>But that's one reason I LIKE Shallow Hal, and more generally the work
>of the Farrellys - their regular use of intellectually challenged and
>otherwise non-standard actors (including the big Hawaiian guy who
>turns up in a couple of films) is the result of a sincere commitment
>on their part to fighting Hollywood's portrayal of a world where such
>people don't exist.
>
>
I don't know--having Jack Black fall in love with a movie star in a fat
suit doesn't seem like putting up much of a fight to me. The romance is
legitimated in virtue of the audience's understanding that it's "really"
Gwyneth Paltrow.
-Matt
25047
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:09am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cinebklyn
I have come up with 5 so far:
1. Several different scenes in "Maurice"
2. Cary Grant rescuing Ingrid Berman in "Notorious"
and confessing his pigheadedness.
3. Tyrese and Paul Walker wrestling in "2 Fast 2 Furious"
4. Marlene Dietrich singing "Black Market" in "A Foreign
Affair."
5. Several scenes in "Querelle"
Brian
25048
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:36am
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On f_verissimo
1. "Say fuck me!" -- Dafoe to Laura Dern in WILD AT HEART.
2. "I'm gonna love you..." -- Sandra Bernhard to Jerry Lewis in THE KING OF
COMEDY.
3. "Do you find me beautiful?" -- La Bardot in CONTEMPT.
4. The butt-slap in the end of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST (man, was that
guy lucky!)
5. "Grrrrr" -- Chris Lee in HORROR OF DRACULA.
Does this mean I'm perverted?
"kinky" fv
25049
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:06am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On rfkeser
• Dietrich impudently striding up and down in THE SCARLET
EMPRESS, inspecting her troops, i.e., checking out their
"equipment".
• Rita Hayworth and Anthony Quinn dancing a sensational tango
in BLOOD AND SAND.
• John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara in his tent, alone together
for the first time their estrangement, feeling their old attraction
powerfully rising again in RIO GRANDE.
• Jennifer Jones and David Farrar lolling about in post-coital
disorder after she has renounced her respectable life for the sake
of physical pleasure, in GONE TO EARTH.
• Kirk Douglas and Elsa Martinelli rolling around in what
looks like a very cold river in THE INDIAN FIGHTER.
• Cyd Charisse discarding her Soviet undies and stepping into
her new Parisian lingerie and finery, to the title tune of SILK
STOCKINGS.
• Claire Bloom falling into total debauchery in THE CHAPMAN
REPORT.
• Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn playing the game of exchanging
the orange without using their hands in CHARADE.
• The young girl who admires DR. AKAGI being pulled off their
boat and into the sea so hard that her pants fly off in the water
(as the camera sweeps right behind).
Some films somehow seem erotic in their entirety even though only a
few scenes might have notably frank material (and no specific images
leap to mind. In this category I would place Wellman's BEGGARS OF
LIFE, Borzage's THE RIVER, Ophuls' LA SIGNORA DI TUTTI,
Mireille Balin and Jean Gabin in GUEULE D'AMOUR, Ozu's A HEN
IN THE WIND, VIE PRIVEE, THIS SPORTING LIFE, LA SIRENE DU
MISSISSIPPI, TEOREMA, Romy Schneider and Tomas Milian in
Visconti's episode of BOCCACCIO 70, BEAU TRAVAIL and VENDREDI
SOIR.
---Robert Keser
25050
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:09am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Eroticism (Was: Feminism?) henrik_sylow
I wouldn't say that Breillat tries to create erotism either. While she
has created a few scenes in some of her films, where she notes upon
the emotional enjoyment of sexuality, as for instance the male blow
job opening shot in "Anatomie de l'enfer", her approach to sexuality
in general is very lacanian and to some degree "sterile" (in lack of a
better word).
To me, Breillat deconstructs sexuality and composes mise-en-scene,
which on one side portraits a sexual situation, but on the other side
is a political statement. Consider her juxtaposition of a vaginal
examination by students and the surreal fuck corridor in "Romance".
Henrik
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin" wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say that Breillat tries for eroticism. Moreover, her
> movies are fundamentally anti-erotic to me. The rawness of her icy
> shots appears likely to prevent any desire. The uneasiness excludes
> any voyeurism, preferred system of erotic scenes. As Dan, I'm
> clueless trying to understand where is the stomping here, notably
> considering the intelligence of her work with actors (Chicot is
> sublime in 36 Fillette). The obsessional accompanying discourse (is
> the stomping there?), sometimes omnipresent, participates, precisely
> through its obsessional nature, in the force of the images'
> questioning.
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > >> Eroticism is a gossamer thing -- stomped to
> > >> nothingness by the Catherine Breillats of this world.
> >
> > This baffles me. When Breillat tries for eroticism, as in 36
> FILLETTE and
> > ROMANCE, the approach is slow, people-oriented, and full of
> anticipation.
> > Sometimes there is no payoff, which may be erotic or anti-erotic,
> > depending on one's taste, but which is not any kind of stomping. -
> Dan
25051
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:42am
Subject: Re: a list (was: I Feel a List Coming On) henrik_sylow
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you can think of ten...
> Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's always interesting to
> find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
Now here is a list Im willing to put my principles aside for :)
1. Tampopo: The egg yolk tongue kiss
2. Twin Peaks: Sherilyn Fenn making a knot on a cherry stick with her
tongue
3. Topazu: The entire penthouse sequence
4. Cool Hand Luke: Car Wash
5. Diary of a chambermaid: The black stilettos presentation
6. Picnic: Kim Novak provoking Holden with her dance
7. The Hunger: Deneuve and Sarandon going at it
8. Crash: The spoon intercause
and by now my brain has melted.
Henrik
25052
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:36am
Subject: Re: Easter Parade damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
>The book is just going into
> production now and given the way academic publishers work it probably
> won't be in stores until early 2006. It's called "Film on the Edge of
> Catastrophe: Hitchcock, Lang, Minnelli." The Minnelli chapter is
> primarily on "Two Weeks in Another Town."
Joe, it sounds fascinating, and I look forward to it with great
anticipation. Please keep us posted as your pub date comes into sight.
25053
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:38am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
> hotlove666 wrote:
>
> >>Obviously there shouldn't be anything wrong, per se, with films
in which only women are killed.
> >>
> >>
> >Yes there is something wrong with that.
> >
> What?
Most films of the genre appeal to audiences' love of seeing women get
cut up. They wouldn't get the same thrill from watching young men get
it. Caputi was absolutely right about that, and about a lot of things
IMO - she just shot her toe off by pretending that there were no
exceptions.
>
> >
> I don't know--having Jack Black fall in love with a movie star in a
fat
> suit doesn't seem like putting up much of a fight to me. The
romance is
> legitimated in virtue of the audience's understanding that
it's "really"
> Gwyneth Paltrow.
Hey, Caputi thought American Psycho would've worked if the
protagonist had been played by a woman. Different strokes for
different folks.
Does that sound like a copout? I really do think it is a matter of
taste. I was fed "gotcha" pills practically w. my mother's milk as a
reader of Cahiers in the 60s and 70s. No radical film that had an
audience was good enough - Z, Camarades, State of Seige. Not that I
like those films, but their flaws were small next to their virtues -
IF one were really interested in rallying people to a cause. The
truth was: The Cahiers wasn't really interested in that. These were
bad films - or simply films that didn't suit their taste (or mine) -
so that ugliness was equated with "revisionism" (opposition to the
Chairman Mao line in cinema...) It was a quarrel about esthetics:
They (we) liked Godard and Straub better, that's all.
Which doesn't mean that Godard (then) and Straub (always) aren't
political.
25054
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:40am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> >
> >
> > hotlove666 wrote: "I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole!"
> >
> > JPC wrote: "Why?! Do you have some shameful kink to hide? I'd love
> to
> > know what turns you on on screen."
> >
> > He's got a ten-foot pole: that must be really hard to hide.
> >
> > --Robert Keser
>
> I almost made that joke, but decided it was embedded into his
> response, so what's the use? JPC
Astute as always, JP.
25055
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:20am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On thebradstevens
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists?
9 LIVES OF A WET PUSSY (Abel Ferrara)
AI NO CORRIDA (Nagisa Oshima)
LA MARGE (Walerian Borowczyk)
LAST TANGO IN PARIS (Bernardo Bertolucci)
WOMEN OF THE NIGHT (Zalman King)
THE STORY OF JOANNA (Gerard Damiano)
CAFE FLESH (Stephen Sayadian)
NIGHTDREAMS (Francis Delia)
BLUE MOVIE BLUE (Zalman King)
BEYOND THE VALLEY OF THE DOLLS (Russ Meyer)
25056
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:58am
Subject: LA gathering sallitt1
I'll be in LA this week, and a small film-buff get-together is planned for
the evening of Monday, April 4 - tentative guest list includes list
members Joe Kaufman, Bill Krohn, and Blake Lucas. If any Angelenos on the
list might like to attend, contact me offlist at sallitt@....
- Dan
25057
From: "K. A. Westphal"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:44pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On chelovek_s_k...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists?
Off the top of my head, scenes here and there:
* Drunken reconciliation between Colbert and McCrea in PALM BEACH STORY.
* Last scene between Wayne and Dickinson in RIO BRAVO.
* Cheung and Leung in different apartments as "Hua Yang de Nian Hua"
plays in IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE.
* Mitchum pops out his "knife" early in NIGHT OF THE HUNTER.
* O'Brein and Livingston rendezvous in SUNRISE.
Three Dreyer Films:
* The entire Inquisition episode in LEAVES FROM SATAN'S BOOKS.
* Every scene between Rye and Movin in DAY OF WRATH
* Christensen in ORDET: "...but I loved her body, too."
I find things of interest scattered throughout the first film, but
that segment is so characteristic of Dreyer's work and themes that I
don't understand its critical obscurity.
25058
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
--- thebradstevens wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
> wrote:
> >
> > So what about Ten Best erotic films lists?
>
>
> 9 LIVES OF A WET PUSSY (Abel Ferrara)
> AI NO CORRIDA (Nagisa Oshima)
> LA MARGE (Walerian Borowczyk)
> LAST TANGO IN PARIS (Bernardo Bertolucci)
> WOMEN OF THE NIGHT (Zalman King)
> THE STORY OF JOANNA (Gerard Damiano)
> CAFE FLESH (Stephen Sayadian)
> NIGHTDREAMS (Francis Delia)
> BLUE MOVIE BLUE (Zalman King)
> BEYOND THE VALLEY OF THE DOLLS (Russ Meyer)
>
>
Being a Joe Dallesandro fan I've always been curious
about "La Marge." That good, eh?
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25059
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:18pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Opening up to a
> > variety of erotic experiences.
>
> Chaque a son goo, J-P. Moreover we're talking about
> eroticism. I was trying to isolate instances that
> produced an erotic frisson -- not simple depictions of
> sex. Actual porn isn't erotic in the same way - and
> often isn't erotic at all.
>
> "erotic frisson" is exactly what I meant. "Depictions of sex" are
seldom erotic. I doubt that there would be a single one in my List.
Porn is almost by definition non-erotic. JPC
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
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25060
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:49pm
Subject: Random remarks on eroticism in film jpcoursodon
The following remarks are highly subjective and can and should be
challenged.
1. My List (which I'm still waiting for Bill's list to post) will be
the product of a heterosexual male, and therefore will exemplify the
infamous "male gaze" and woman as "object of desire." Lists by
homosexuals and bisexuals of both sexes should be encouraged
(unfortunately there is a dearth of female membership in this Group).
2. I define as erotic whatever triggers pleasure, or a thrill, of a
sexual nature. Actual arousal is a telltale sign but not necessary.
3. It could be argued that erotic stimulation clashes with and is an
impediment to aethestic appreciation, and that therefore erotic
content should be held in suspicion. Food for ethical debate.
4. As a general rule, the more sexually explicit a scene, the less
erotic it turns out to be. As a result most of my choices would be
from "classic" rather than "modern" cinema. Eroticism is born from
constraint. Porn, almost by definition, is anti-erotic. Even in non-
porn, mainstream movies, scenes depicting intercourse are seldom
erotic.
5. Some performers are intrinsically erotic. Their mere presence
makes any scene "erotic" no matter how un-erotic the explicit
content of the scene is. Sabu was such a performer. ALL his films
are therefore erotic. THE THIEF OF BAGDAD is a great erotic film for
that sole reason (contrast Sabu's eroticism with the blandness of
June Duprez's princess). This fact poses a problem in list-making.
The filmography of such a performer could be submitted in lieu of a
list. Janet Leigh is always erotic. The temptation is great to list
most of her films. Of course such temptation must be resisted.
6. I found that films that deal with erotic areas I am most
interested in almost invariably disappoint me. Maybe they're too
close for comfort.
7. I agree with the poster who remarked that some films seem
entirely erotic although you can't pinpoint specific scenes. The sum
is more than the parts. Although more often, it's the opposite.
JPC
25061
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Random remarks on eroticism in film cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> 5. Some performers are intrinsically erotic. Their
> mere presence
> makes any scene "erotic" no matter how un-erotic the
> explicit
> content of the scene is. Sabu was such a performer.
> ALL his films
> are therefore erotic. THE THIEF OF BAGDAD is a great
> erotic film for
> that sole reason (contrast Sabu's eroticism with the
> blandness of
> June Duprez's princess).
I quite agree, but as someone whowas shaped by Sabu
from an early age his eroticism is rather complex. As
a child I IDENTIFIED with Sabu. I saw in him a better
self -- brave, dashing, full of adventure. His real
erotic power only became apparant to me much later
when as a young adult I saw "Black Narcissus." And
there, I'm sure you'll agree J-P, he was perfectly
matched in erotic potential with the young and
ravishing Jean Simmons.
June Duprez's comaparative blandness in "Thief of
Bagdad" is reallya function of the plot. It's Connie
Veidt who wants her. And when Connie wants someone
their sex appeal grows exponentially.
Janet Leigh is always erotic.
Absolutely. And what's so powerful about her is she
conveys the eroticism of the "girl next door." No one
expects to run into Dietrich or Rita hayworth's
"Gilda" in real life. But Marion Crane is "someone we
know" -- which is why her murder is so devestating.
__________________________________
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25062
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Random remarks on eroticism in film tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
"The following remarks are highly subjective and can and should be
challenged."
Your remarks make are very cogent and provide(for me) a useful
guideline in my the list below. There are some points to quibble
with but I'm pressed for time at the moment so I'll wait to see what
others have to say.
The films on this list have moments of the erotic or are entirely so
as per your definition:
1. AI NO KORRIDA
2. ANATAHAN
3. BLACK NARCISSUS
4. JET PILOT
5. NOTORIOUS
6. ONNA NO MIZUUMI/WOMAN OF THE LAKE
7. REAR WINDOW
8. TO CATCH A THIEF
9. UGETSU MONOGATARI
10. UTSUKUSHISA TO KANASHIMSA TO/WITH BEAUTY AND SADNESS
Richard
25063
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Random remarks on eroticism in film jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> June Duprez's comaparative blandness in "Thief of
> Bagdad" is reallya function of the plot.
Right. She deserves John Justin... Aside from Sabu the most
erotic presence in the film is of course the murderous automaton.
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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25064
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:21pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> Some films somehow seem erotic in their entirety even though only a
> few scenes might have notably frank material (and no specific images
> leap to mind. In this category I would place Wellman's BEGGARS OF
> LIFE, Borzage's THE RIVER, Ophuls' LA SIGNORA DI TUTTI,
> Mireille Balin and Jean Gabin in GUEULE D'AMOUR, Ozu's A HEN
> IN THE WIND, VIE PRIVEE, THIS SPORTING LIFE, LA SIRENE DU
> MISSISSIPPI, TEOREMA, Romy Schneider and Tomas Milian in
> Visconti's episode of BOCCACCIO 70, BEAU TRAVAIL and VENDREDI
> SOIR.
Despite his reputation, Ozu DOES have some erotic moments. I don't
actually see "Hen In The Wind" as being erotic. Although this is rawly
physical in a way that no other Ozu film is -- and involves the most
explicitly sexual situations -- sex is brutal (husband) or lewdly
coarse (our heroine's "customer"). For me, the little bit of business
right before the end of "what the Lady Forgot" (as his married couple
criss-cross the screen, as lights are progressively extinguished) and
the midnight snack scene right before the end of "Flavor of Green Tea
Over Rice" are the top erotic Ozu moments.
25065
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:38pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On thebradstevens
> >
> >
> Being a Joe Dallesandro fan I've always been curious
> about "La Marge." That good, eh?
It's my favorite Boro. Thematically, it anticipates EYES WIDE SHUT.
But try to avoid the English-dubbed version entitled THE
STREETWALKER, which is missing almost 15 minutes of footage.
25066
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
--- "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
>
> Despite his reputation, Ozu DOES have some erotic
> moments. I don't
> actually see "Hen In The Wind" as being erotic.
> Although this is rawly
> physical in a way that no other Ozu film is -- and
> involves the most
> explicitly sexual situations -- sex is brutal
> (husband) or lewdly
> coarse (our heroine's "customer"). For me, the
> little bit of business
> right before the end of "what the Lady Forgot" (as
> his married couple
> criss-cross the screen, as lights are progressively
> extinguished) and
> the midnight snack scene right before the end of
> "Flavor of Green Tea
> Over Rice" are the top erotic Ozu moments.
>
>
>
>
Don't forget the bath scene in "There Was a Father"
Eroticism in Ozu proceeds from the filmmaker's gaze.
These are cretures he has created for his own delight.
__________________________________
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25067
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:51pm
Subject: 25 Directors/American Cinema racurnutte1
I'm in the midst of finishing up editing Issue 12 of THE FILM JOURNAL.
If anyone has not yet sent me their ballots for these two
polls/projects, please do so ASAP. If enought ballots do not come in,
I may hold the polls back until the next issue, but I'd really like to
include them in this one (they serve a major announcement that we will
be making).
Rick Curnutte
thefilmjournal at yahoo dot com
25068
From: "Kevin Lee"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:57pm
Subject: Re: American Cinema updates alsolikelife
Hey Rick,
As you know I sent you my neo-Sarrisian canon. I limited myself to no
more thn 5 names per category because I didn't want to overwhelm
others. I looked that Robert and Dan's files they posted and it looks
like they tried their best to be as inclusive of as many names as they
could think of. Just wondering if I should redo my list if you're
doing some kind of tabulation and want as many opinions on as many
directors as possible.
Kevin
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Curnutte"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > I finally finished my post-1968 update of Sarris' director
> rankings. It
> > got pretty massive, so instead of posting it here, I uploaded it
(as
> an
> > Excel file) to the group's Files section.
>
> Just to let everyone know, I'll be posting the cumulative and
> individual data in the Files section for both this and the Top 25
> Director poll.
>
> Rick
25069
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:02pm
Subject: Re: American Cinema updates racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
>
> Hey Rick,
>
> As you know I sent you my neo-Sarrisian canon. I limited myself to
no
> more thn 5 names per category because I didn't want to overwhelm
> others. I looked that Robert and Dan's files they posted and it
looks
> like they tried their best to be as inclusive of as many names as
they
> could think of. Just wondering if I should redo my list if you're
> doing some kind of tabulation and want as many opinions on as many
> directors as possible.
You can do it however you wish. If you want to resubmit, feel free.
Rick
25070
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:05pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Don't forget the bath scene in "There Was a Father"
> Eroticism in Ozu proceeds from the filmmaker's gaze.
> These are cretures he has created for his own delight.
I never considered that scene erotic -- just sort of sweet -- a little
family solidarity at long last (and for a little while).
Though there is some potential for eroticism is "Early Spring", it
would seem that Ozu felt this didn't fit the overall tone of the film
-- and he elided it completely.
The most unusual, possibly erotically-tinged scene in Naruse -- the
rather maniacal volleyball (?) match between Setsuko Hara and Shuji
Sano at the end of "Shu'u" (Sudden Rain). I never have quite figured
out how to read this.
Actually, despite his reputation for dourness, Naruse seems to have a
good number of erotically-charged moments in his films.
25071
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
>
> > Marlene kissing a woman, and tossing a flower to Gary
> > Cooper in "Morocco"
> >
> > Interesting that the only member (pardon my French) who
> accepted the challenge this far is our gay activist in residence.
> Needless to say most of his choices have no erotic interest to me,
> but that was the very point of my suggestion. Opening up to a
> variety of erotic experiences. JPC
I feel you were a little quick on the "no erotic interest to me"
comment here, JPC, because the above example really jumped out of
this list for me, one of the best of all possible ones no matter
what one's sexual orientation. And let me just add, David (though I
feel this is at least implied as you mention two moments in the
sequence), the touch of Cooper putting the flower behind his ear
--he looks really cool that way. A great touch.
Sternberg was way ahead of most filmmakers (and still is) in
appreciating the complexities of sexuality, eroticism, the sexual
roles of men and women--you name it. And never more than here,
one of the most riveting (and intoxicatingly pleasurable) sequences
in cinema. From the sequence, and with that exquisite mise-en-scene
of his, Sternberg builds a film on the androgyny of both Dietrich
and Cooper. Interestingly, the result is one of the more moving
love stories in movies, and I think there is a moral in that.
Blake
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
25072
From: Peter Henne
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On peterhenne
Online Now Send IM
Lisbeth Movin in "Day of Wrath" is the most erotic creature I have ever seen in a film. Hummina hummina. And I love the way the wife in "Knife in the Water" starts out as a communist version of a frumpy bourgeois, but by degrees becomes erotically charged--completely overturning my ideas about sexuality in the East Bloc of that era.
Peter Henne
"K. A. Westphal" wrote:
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
Three Dreyer Films:
* The entire Inquisition episode in LEAVES FROM SATAN'S BOOKS.
* Every scene between Rye and Movin in DAY OF WRATH
* Christensen in ORDET: "...but I loved her body, too."
I find things of interest scattered throughout the first film, but
that segment is so characteristic of Dreyer's work and themes that I
don't understand its critical obscurity.
---------------------------------
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25073
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:26pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
>
> I feel you were a little quick on the "no erotic interest to me"
> comment here, JPC, because the above example really jumped out of
> this list for me, one of the best of all possible ones no matter
> what one's sexual orientation.
Please note that I said "most of" -- the remark didn't apply to
this famous scene. I completely agree with everything you say about
it below. JPC
And let me just add, David (though I
> feel this is at least implied as you mention two moments in the
> sequence), the touch of Cooper putting the flower behind his ear
> --he looks really cool that way. A great touch.
>
> Sternberg was way ahead of most filmmakers (and still is) in
> appreciating the complexities of sexuality, eroticism, the sexual
> roles of men and women--you name it. And never more than here,
> one of the most riveting (and intoxicatingly pleasurable)
sequences
> in cinema. From the sequence, and with that exquisite mise-en-
scene
> of his, Sternberg builds a film on the androgyny of both Dietrich
> and Cooper. Interestingly, the result is one of the more moving
> love stories in movies, and I think there is a moral in that.
>
> Blake
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
25074
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:10pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On hotlove666
So far the name of the game seems to be impresssing each other with our
refinement. In the interests of honesty, I won't name La Region Centrale. Maybe the
following list of 10 genuinely erotic films off the top of my head will serve to lower
the level of the discussion:
1. Belle de jour - No one does it better than a surrealist.
2. What? - Great director films Playboy fantasies while experimenting with form.
3. Le labyrinth - Porn version of 2 - Laure Sainclair is an axiom open to every
proposition
4. Ken Park - You know, that scene...
5. Tinto Brass's Mailbox - "Tinto Brass loves that ass" - Hadrian Belove
6. F for Fake - 2 redux
7. Touch of Evil - Essentially an erotic film with Janet Leigh
8. La bete - This one's funny, too.
and for the "seductive tease" fans --
9. That Obscure Object of Desire - I love 'em both!
10. Before Sunset - Hey, I'm a film critic...
25075
From: "Aaron Graham"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:31pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On machinegunmc...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> 2. What? - Great director films Playboy fantasies while
experimenting with form.
Most of Polanski's films would be at the top of my list, this one
included. I'd also like to add "The Fearless Vampire Killers" for
Sharon Tate, and the "milk" scene in "Bitter Moon"...
In classic Hollywood, maybe the bookstore scene in "The Big Sleep".
25076
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:58pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> So what about Ten Best erotic films lists? If you can think of
ten...
> Or perhaps just ten best Erotic Scenes... (it's always interesting
to
> find out what other people find erotic...) JPC
OK, I'll bite.
If only because I recognized the subject title as a play on "I Feel
a Song Coming On" and so enjoyed exchanging memories of hearing
Sonny play in the 60s.
But like everyone else out here, JPC, I'm waiting for your actual
list, which I know as an honorable guy you will put up just as soon
as Bill puts up his (you know, kind of an "I'll show you mine if you
show me yours)". And someday, I hope you will tell us what religion
forbids list making--in any event, we do appreciate your willingness
to be excommunicated. A list from you will be an event.
As context for my reply, let me evoke your Random Remarks on
Eroticism in Film (post 25060), which eloquently speaks for me
and especially the following:
"4. As a general rule, the more sexually explicit a scene, the less
erotic it turns out to be. As a result most of my choices would be
from "classic" rather than "modern" cinema. Eroticism is born from
constraint. Porn, almost by definition, is anti-erotic. Even in non-
porn, mainstream movies, scenes depicting intercourse are seldom
erotic."
Let me just add a few thoughts to that post. I agree that some
people in cinema are always erotic, though who they are might vary a
little with who you are--what your sexual psychology is, and so on--
just as we might disagree on which filmmaker has the most mastery of
mise-en-scene depending on the kinds of things which engage us. But
I don't think it was ever a secret that there is an erotic pull in
cinema, only one of its aspects but an important one. I think
everyone knows this, even if it isn't their place to
articulate it, ordinary moviegoers as well as the members of this
group. And that's why I completely reject this "male gaze"
theorizing that has had such a horrible effect on criticism and on
cinema, because it denies that we have any freedom and
discernment and are just kind of sex slaves to the image. That is
nonsense. I know if Ava Gardner, Kim Novak or Janet Leigh
is in a movie, the "gaze" of the movie, which I still believe is
created mostly by the director, will work on the erotic pull she has
for me, and I may be enticed to go if she is in it. But that is only
the beginning. For the cinema I appreciate is created with a
reflective distance, and it is appreciated with this distance. When
there is eroticism, I actually believe it is more powerful because
of this distance. It allows for the film's eroticism to work on us
in a different way than it would in life--it is in a different
space, and we engage it more imaginatively than physiologically.
That doesn't apply to hard core pornography of course. But like
most people who have responded, this doesn't interest me at all in
the context of what we're talking about. Have I watched it? Sure.
Its one goal is to arouse, and it does this unless you are very
repressed, but it isn't interesting. Soft core pore is worse--it's
neither one thing nor the other.
Mainstream cinema is where it is at with eroticism and "classic"
cinema, as you say, did it much better. I don't believe in
censorship so sexually explicit scenes are OK with me, but I believe
filmmakers should go to them only as a last resort, and
in narrative films for only one reason, because they are essential
to character development. That's rarely true, but sometimes
true. "Ai No Koriida"/"In the Realm of the Senses" has been
mentioned several times and I already planned to mention it too for
this reason. This is a film where the characters and their
relationship could only be fully realized through inclusion of these
scenes--that is the nature of the film as conceived. Is it erotic?
Somewhat, maybe, though not the height for me. But I do respect it
as a solid piece of dramatic storytelling.
The eroticism I care about can go way back in cinema--it's very
present in many early Griffith shorts, especially those which deal
with female sexuality and yearning (those seaside two reelers remain
exquisite cinema for me). Someone has already mentioned
"Sunrise" from some years later. Doesn't this show artistic
realization is everything? The set, the positioning of the moon
behind George O'Brien before the rendezvous, the tracking shot that
moves with him as he comes to Livingston, and finally, that moment
where, delirious, he buries his face in her crotch (and yes, she's
clothed, which makes the heat so much greater). So much do we feel
the almost mesmerizing carnality of this affair that we can
completely understand why this guy would be willing to destroy
himself, his wife, his marriage, his life as he knows it.
I wish Murnau had been around to make more films which displayed
such gift for eroticism. "Tabu" has it in spades, along with
an equal feeling for fatality and eternity. That's a really sublime
combination.
What I said about "last resort" to sex scenes is something I believe
the classic filmmakers believed in--they used their imagination to
convey sexual relationships, without showing sex, but there are
moments when they wanted to directly imply it and had the
artistry to do so. One of the best examples ever is a closeup of
Sylvia Bataille as Georges Darnoux begins to make love to her
in "A Day in the Country" (Renoir)--we see her feelings about a
moment as sad and frightening (because she knows it will be
fleeting) as it is pleasurable and fulfilling. The eroticism and
the character's sexuality are aspects of a whole portrait, not an
obsession of the director, and more beautiful for this. And Dan, if
you do read this, it is what I see as the complete absence
of this in Breillat that made me step away from her after one bad
experience--"Romance"--which she said was to explore a
woman's sexuality. Actually, to be truthful, thinking of "A Day in
the Country" in relation to that did make it very provocative to me
that she just edged Renoir on your 25 directors list, though I'm
sure that wasn't your intention.
And speaking of great films which run less than normal feature-
length, I'd like to evoke Bunuel's "Simon of the Desert" as an
example of a great director being able to actually show flesh to
great effect. It's a scene in which Sylvia Pinal comes to tempt
Simon dressed as a school girl, then bares her breasts, which are
those of a mature woman. This was pretty powerful to me, just
brilliant. Simon resisted her but I would have said "To hell with
it...sainthood is overrated anyway." Someone wrote a while ago this
was going to be on TCM in May. Don't miss it!
With that, here's my favorite. That's right--just one. I'll just
say it straight.
It's that six minute love scene in "Four Guns to the Border" (1954)
between Rory Calhoun and Colleen Miller. I wrote about this
in "Saloon Girls and Ranchers' Daughters: The Woman in the Western"
in THE WESTERN READER and even acknowledged that some who saw it
when it was first released were still enamored of Miller. Of
course, that's me--I wasn't trying to hide it.
That rainswept nocturnal scene between the ripe, sweet young woman
and the rather darkly drawn outlaw leader played on me like nothing
else, and when I saw it again years later it was as compelling as
ever. It was quite fun to write about, too--the 37 shots I refer to
in my piece allude to the fact I sat and broke it down and my
original draft described every shot and cut. But of course in a
long piece something had to give. In truth, in my personal sexual
mythology this has a special place--certainly it was, however
unconciously for many years, the basis of my fantasy life. Things
you see at a certain age can have that effect.
Given the theme of a_film_by, I'm happy to say that the sequence
owes entirely to the mise-en-scene of director Richard Carlson.
According to Colleen Miller (she turned up at a screening of another
movie a few years ago so I was able to ask her about it), it was
just barely implied in the script. It was Carlson who built it up
into what it is, the beautiful cinematography (by Russell Metty, and
reminiscent of the work with Technicolor, complete with dark shadows
and silhouettes amidst the vibrancy, that he was already doing with
Sirk), the choreography of the scene with the actors, the sound of
the rainfall. Above all, he plainly really cared for and valued
sexual feelings, especially that of the female character, handled
with the greatest delicacy yet with incredible heat. Revealingly,
Miller said that Carlson himself kissed her before the sequence in a
way that so aroused her that she carried it into the sequence.
By the way, the movie as a whole is excellent and follows through on
its sexual theme interacting with some genre conventions which are
all revitalized throughout by fresh, imaginative treatment. I never
tire of it.
And yes, I met Colleen Miller. I went up to her afterward and gave
her the book and said I was the one who had asked about the
sequence. As old as we both were, I felt like a dumb awkward
adolescent and was sure I acted that way. To me, she was as
beautiful and alluring as ever. Well, no matter how I acted, she
was very warm and friendly and called me later to tell me how much
she liked the piece and that if I could ever arrange a screening
someday, she would come and bring her own 16 print if need be.
I said I'd bite but just with this one favorite. After all, as my
one-time girlfriend provocatively said one time when she called to
invite me to spend the night "I promise to bite you only once."
Blake Lucas
25077
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On mathieu_ricordi
I don't know if I could go for a whole list
but just recently I feel we got a very good
erotic melodrama in Jean-claude Brisseus
"Secret Things", which dares the ridiculous
and the hyperbolic to bring us a moral and
damning portrait of soul-selling in the work place.
I think part of what made it so overlooked and
underrated in the States is that old 'erotic'
cover which usually means less respect. It's
unfortunate, and I'm glad to see many of you
not caving in to the tabu with your lists.
Mathieu Ricordi
25078
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Random remarks on eroticism in film hotlove666
After Jean-Claude Biette's death - second anniversary coming up - I described here
at length my last conversation w. him and a friend in Paris about eroticism in
cinema, director by director, actor by actor. The funniest observation was on
DeMille: "Everything is eroticized in DeMille - even a scarab!"
25079
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:04pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>
> Borzage's THE RIVER
Glad you mentioned this one, Robert. I saw it last year and was knocked out by it. I
think it was a favorite of Bunuel's.
25080
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:16pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On habelove
I'm not so sure I buy the idea that the more explicit a scene is, the less erotic. Most
the old masters COULDN'T be more explicit, so there's really no point in theorizing
they chose restraint and implication as the more effective path --it was the only
path. Men and women almost invariably show physical signs of arousal when
viewing pornography (breathing, heart rate, vaginal or penile blood flow). I think
the words "almost invariably" would definitely have to be stricken from less explicit
material. That said, I'm not arguing for the formula's inversion: the more
explicit, the sexier. In order to really work on an audience, you certainly don't want
to repulse them --so i think my favorite scenes worm their way past your defenses.
As for the list! I'm gonna try and challenge myself and take the top ten scenes,
rather than movies. A lot of them have already been mentioned, but that just shows
how good they are!
1) The More The Merrier. Joel McCrea macking on Jean Arthur. The sound of her
voice changing when he's kissing her neck is perfect. Very sly scene.
2) Tampopo egg-yolk kiss. I agree.
3) Secret Things. Lots of scenes, but I'll pick Sabrina Seyvecou masturbating under
the sheets, while Coralie Revel watches and instructs her.
4) Going Places. The first thing I ever saw of Blier's was the scene of Briggite Fossey
as the mother who nurses Patrick Dawaere on the bus. So far three out of four of
my picks could be seen as Sexy AND hilarious...hmmm...
5) Bitter Moon. The milk.
6) Mulholland Drive. The audition scene. That long close-up; fantastic use of
breathing. Lynch, fetishist extraordinairre, does it again and again, but i'll restrain
myself to just this scene.
7) Female Vampire (Avaleuses, Les ) by Jesus Franco. The opening credits. Just Lina
Romay in the woods, slowly walking towards the camera. Lina Romay....Lina
Romay...
8) Hit Man. The phone sex scene.
9) Before Sunrise. The record-listening scene.
10) Chloe in the Afternoon. The tension at the ending is exquisite.
Now I realize this isn't a top ten. Just a first ten. THe first ten I could think of...we
could go on and on and on...
Hadrian
25081
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:29pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
wrote:
>
>
>
> Most of Polanski's films would be at the top of my list, this one
> included. I'd also like to add "The Fearless Vampire Killers" for
> Sharon Tate, and the "milk" scene in "Bitter Moon"...
>
I would single out "Bitter Moon" as a perfect example of a film
that intends to be thoroughly erotic and miserably fails from
beginning to end. Not a single situation in it is even remotely
believable and the cataloguing of ludicrous SM "scenes" and constant
shuttling between S and M made me want to turn it off long before the
end (stayed to the bitter end, though) The excuse that "it's all in
the head of the narrator" is a bit too feeble. A great director
hitting rock bottom. JPC
25082
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:40pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On rfkeser
"hotlove666" wrote:
Borzage's THE RIVER
"Glad you mentioned this one, Robert. I saw it last year and was
knocked out by it. I think it was a favorite of Bunuel's."
Even though there's only some half-hour of it extant, this film seems
to imprint itself on everyone who sees it. In my case, it was some
thirty years ago that I saw it at MOMA in NY and I've never forgotten
it. When Janet Bergstrom was in Chicago last year with her "Four
Devils" film, she mentioned "The River" and you could practically
hear a sigh from those in the audience who had seen it.
--Robert Keser
25083
From: "Aaron Graham"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:49pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On machinegunmc...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> I would single out "Bitter Moon" as a perfect example of a film
> that intends to be thoroughly erotic and miserably fails from
> beginning to end. Not a single situation in it is even remotely
> believable and the cataloguing of ludicrous SM "scenes" and constant
> shuttling between S and M made me want to turn it off long before
the
> end (stayed to the bitter end, though) The excuse that "it's all in
> the head of the narrator" is a bit too feeble. A great director
> hitting rock bottom. JPC
It's been some time since I've seen it, but I agree with you about the
merits of the film -- the S & M scenes really were quite laughable.
I must say I liked it a great deal better than "The Ninth Gate"
though, which was just a pain for me to get through. I couldn't
believe that it came from the man who made "Rosemary's Baby".
With all of that said, one of the only scenes that works for me
in "Bitter Moon" is the aforementioned "milk" scene. It's the only
fragment that stuck with me from my only viewing a few years back,
especially the "popping of the toast" that closes the scene.
25084
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:51pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On rfkeser
"Michael E. Kerpan, Jr." wrote:
> Despite his reputation, Ozu DOES have some erotic moments. I don't
> actually see "Hen In The Wind" as being erotic. Although this is
> rawly physical in a way that no other Ozu film is -- and involves
> the most explicitly sexual situations -- sex is brutal (husband)
> or lewdly coarse (our heroine's "customer"). For me, the little
> bit of business right before the end of "what the Lady Forgot" (as
> his married couple criss-cross the screen, as lights are
> progressively extinguished) and the midnight snack scene right
> before the end of "Flavor of Green Tea Over Rice" are the top
> erotic Ozu moments.
It ain't pretty, and the woman ends up quite ill-used, but sex is
certainly Topic A in "Hen in the Wind", giving the entire movie a
libidinal charge that the other films only occasionally access. Of
the dozen or so Ozu films I've seen, I'd say that "Story of Floating
Weeds" comes closest.
--Robert Keser
25085
From: "Aaron Graham"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:52pm
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On machinegunmc...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Hadrian" wrote:
> 7) Female Vampire (Avaleuses, Les ) by Jesus Franco. The opening
credits. Just Lina
> Romay in the woods, slowly walking towards the camera. Lina
Romay....Lina
> Romay...
Speaking of Franco: the erotically charged striptease between Soledad
Miranda and the mannequin in "Vampyros Lesbos" is another winner.
25086
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:53pm
Subject: My List(s) jpcoursodon
Since Bill finally came through, I have to come up with a list too.
Last night, instead of counting directors I tried to think of some
good erotic scenes and realized that it wasn't so easy. I ended up
making two lists (!) -- one for isolated erotic scenes, the other
for those particular films that seem to be pervaded with eroticism
(the two lists could sometimeS overlap...)
The "scenes" list is not a Ten "Best" List, just some scenes that
stuck in my mind. it will be obvious to everybody that there is a
fairly strong element of fetishism in most of my choices.
So, without further ado:
Isolated scenes:
(in chronological order)
NANA (Renoir, 1926) Catherine Hessling feeding chocolates to one of
her lovers in a stunning bedroom (boudoir?) set.
SUNRISE (1928) The scene already mentioned by several posters.
L'AGE D'OR (1930) Lya Lys sucking the statue's toe.
THE SHANGHAI GESTURE (1941) Mature toying with Tierney's shoulder
strap.
LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN (1945) Tierney and Wilde's first meeting on the
train.
DUEL IN THE SUN (1946) Peck's seduction scene of Jones in her room.
Also the finale.
THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE (1946) Turner coolly reapplying
lipstick after the first kiss (which drew blood in the book, but not
the movie). That lipstick is a key erotic prop throughout the movie.
BLACK NARCISSUS (1947) Sister Ruth putting on makeup (but the film
could also be in the "entirely erotic film" category.)
SINGIN IN THE RAIN (1952). The Kelly-Charisse dance on "Broadway
Rhythm" but especially the tracking shot along her extended leg.
MY SISTER EILEEN (1955) Janet Leigh walking around the apt. in her
green short shorts, or disguised as a football player to dance with
her sister on "There's nothing Like Love".
"Modern" addendum:
KING OF COMEDY Sandra Bernhard with bound Lewis.
TAMPOPO The noodle kissing. Thanks Henrik, I was going to forget
that one!
BOUND Gershon and Tilly fooling around.
ROMANCE The two bondage scenes.
THE SECRETARY She bends over and waits for her spanking; forever...
Entire films:
THE CHASER (Harry Langdon, 1928) The kinkiest, by far, of all
silent comedies.
PANDORA'S BOX (Pabst,1928)
THE SCARLET EMPRESS
THE DEVIL IS A WOMAN
GILDA
EL
THE SAGA OF ANATAHAN
NIAGARA
BELLE DE JOUR
CET OBSCUR OBJET DU DESIR
25087
From: "Fred Patton"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 0:03am
Subject: Objectivity (was Re: I Feel a List Coming On) fred_patton
As usual, I've been listening in with great interest. BITTER MOON is
a film I was wild about after seeing it many moons ago for the first
time twice in rapid succession. Not so much it's eroticism, but it's
psychology. Returning to it sometime later proved to very a very
underwelming experience. Whether the film is great, good, ok, or
lame is unimportant for the point I want to make. It's the question
of cultivating an aesthetic distance while still deriving
fulfillment of a film. It's something that intrigues, yet eludes. In
someways, this distance can heighten the effect of the work,
revealing levels that far outweigh the straight-forward viewing
enterprising. On the other hand, to some degree, it can cut off some
of the pure enjoyment it seems. And I'm not implying anything about
BITTER MOON'S aesthetic qualities.
The fact that my opinion could change so dramatically about a film
is very interesting to me. I was certainly a wee bit savvier about
film having approached it a good while later. I never took into
account my own emotionality at the time of either of the viewings,
the last time just thinking that maybe it's not so good. Certainly
the movie hasn't changed and I have, but maybe there's more to it.
Certainly an emotional connection is not the way to gauge a film,
but certainly it creeps or struts into many reviews.
Something I always try to do these days is to analyze my own state
in approaching and experiencing the film as part of shaping my idea
about the film. Not because I fancy myself as any sort of critic,
but because I want to understand the film better and my interaction
with it, an instrinsic part of why and how I appreciate a film. I
don't want to discount the emotionality and personality I bring to a
film, nor my political ideas and aesthetic preoccuptations, but I
hope to observe this relationship during my interaction with any
picture, moving or still. That is, discover how such a film might be
interacted by an individual X such as myself. Hearing from
individuals Y and Z in discussions yields more data. All of this
ancillary data MAY give some clues as to what's already in the film,
thought whatever it leads to saying about the film also seems
questionable.
Within BITTER MOON proper, the sex games became stale for the
characterized participants. So can it's erotic appeal surely, along
with the randomness of mood. Depth is what generally allows the
cinephile to keep returning to a film, but depth is both qualitative
and quantitive. If the depth of a film is covered quantitatively,
may it continue delivering qualitatively indefinitely? At once a
great film seems to have exhausted it, new world political
developments have a habit of illuminating previously missed facets.
I think I can keep watching UNE FEMME DOUCE and NOT RECONCILED as
though listening to great music. I really want to believe this. As
with L'ECLISSE, with it's fixation on framing, it's the unfolding of
facets of a history of film, any embedded story something akin to
scaffolding or texture. Might the cult favorite be as inexhaustible?
I think so, too. Can I thoroughly enjoy MY BLUE HEAVEN and then
worry about it's qualities later? The auteurists seem to have a
natural grace to jumping from film to film without getting tripped
up by arbitrary classificatory demarcations. There is an
understanding of form, abeit varying from one to another, that gets
carried across to any given film, and that film sinks or swims in
the sea of the beholder. Sure, I bring the same black bag from film
to film, but for most of them, it's simply a body bag. My temptation
in the past has been to prematurely narrow the cinematic field, even
while pretending to do otherwise.
Certainly one of the unfortunate things that happened to music was
the categorizations of radio stations, stifling beautiful fusions.
Fred Patton
25088
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 0:29am
Subject: Re: Re: I Feel a List Coming On cellar47
--- Hadrian wrote:
>
> 1) The More The Merrier. Joel McCrea macking on Jean
> Arthur. The sound of her
> voice changing when he's kissing her neck is
> perfect. Very sly scene.
>
So glad you mentioned that. I had a l'esprit de
l'escalier somethin' fierce.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
25089
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 1:23am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals bufordrat
hotlove666 wrote:
> Most films of the genre appeal to audiences' love of seeing women get
> cut up. They wouldn't get the same thrill from watching young men get
> it. Caputi was absolutely right about that, and about a lot of things
> IMO - she just shot her toe off by pretending that there were no
> exceptions.
Well, you've definitely convinced me to have a look at this Caputi book.
Still, the above is more of an argument for the genre's being
heteronormative (a problem that most other films share) than an argument
that it has "misogynist" tendencies.
Just to make things clear, we need to distinguish between several scenarios:
1) I kidnap a woman and cut her up. I don't think anyone is going to
dispute that this is unethical.
2) I witness a woman getting cut up, and enjoy it. Unethical, yes, but
because of my lack of intervention, not because of my pleasure.
3) I enjoy a snuff film in which a woman gets cut up. This is a bit of
a grey area. Obviously she's already been killed so I couldn't have
done anything to intervene. Still, I wouldn't really object if someone
wanted to say that watching snuff films was unethical.
4) I enjoy a fiction film in which a female character gets cut up. I
think it's difficult to make a case for there being anything wrong with
this. Claiming that there is sounds to me like puritanism. (i.e.
everyone who enjoys films of women getting slaughtered should visit her
doctor immediately for a clitorectomy)
>> <>I don't know--having Jack Black fall in love with a movie star in a
>> fat suit doesn't seem like putting up much of a fight to me. The
>> romance is legitimated in virtue of the audience's understanding that
>> it's "really" Gwyneth Paltrow.
>
>
>Hey, Caputi thought American Psycho would've worked if the
>protagonist had been played by a woman. Different strokes for
>different folks.
>
I still don't see how this is at all relevant to _Shallow Hal_--I wasn't
proposing that the Farrellys cast anyone else in Paltrow's role. Am I
still allowed to be offended by _Birth of a Nation_, or is that also
playing "gotcha"?
-Matt
25090
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 2:20am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman wrote:
>
> 4) I enjoy a fiction film in which a female character gets cut up.
I
> think it's difficult to make a case for there being anything wrong
with
> this. Claiming that there is sounds to me like puritanism. (i.e.
> everyone who enjoys films of women getting slaughtered should visit
her
> doctor immediately for a clitorectomy)
>
> I take very strong exception to this statement. I think there
definitely IS something wrong about enjoying the spectacle of a woman
(or anybody) being "cut up". It's not a matter of visiting your doctor
for a cliteorectomy, a little joke that I find very distasteful, not
to mention absurd in the context. Sorry if my "puritanism" is
showing. JPC
25091
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 5:10am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals bufordrat
jpcoursodon wrote:
>> <> I take very strong exception to this statement. I think there
>> definitely IS something wrong about enjoying the spectacle of a woman
>> (or anybody) being "cut up". It's not a matter of visiting your
>> doctor for a cliteorectomy, a little joke that I find very
>> distasteful, not to mention absurd in the context. Sorry if my
>> "puritanism" is showing. JPC
>
It was not a joke, and I stand by the parallel.
From Wikipedia:
"From the late 19th century <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century>
until the 1950s <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950s>, it was practiced,
not to enhance, but to control female sexuality, and was advocated in
the United States <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States> together
with more invasive procedures such as the removal of the clitoris and
infibulation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infibulation> by groups like
the Orificial Surgery Society
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orificial_Surgery_Society&action=edit>
until 1925 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925>. Specifically, doctors
performing or advocating the procedure were concerned that girls of all
ages would otherwise engage in more masturbation
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation> and be "polluted" by the
activity, which was referred to as "self-abuse
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-abuse>" [1]
<http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm> (/http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm>http://www.noharmm.org/paige.htm/)."
If you care to qualify your indignation with anything in the way of
explanation I'm interested to hear it.
-Matt
25092
From: "Saul"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 5:32am
Subject: Re: My List(s) asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> L'AGE D'OR (1930) Lya Lys sucking the statue's toe.
Yeah, I was wondering when this one would turn up. There mustn't be
any "Star Wars" fans here cause no-one has mentioned Jabba, (and Luke)
drooling over Princess Leia in her metallic-slave-bikini - and I'm
surprised no-one mentioned the Dietrich 'horse-ride' flashback from
"Rancho Notorious"...............
25093
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 5:35am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
book.
>
> Still, the above is more of an argument for the genre's being
> heteronormative (a problem that most other films share) than an
argument
> that it has "misogynist" tendencies.
Doesn't heteronormative mean "heterosexuality is the norm"? If so,
that's not what a film like Copycat, in which women are murdered
onscreen in ways that pay homage to serial killers past, is about. It
is expressing - per Caputi - patriarchal society's fear and hatred of
women who don't know their place, and the Hannibal Lecter type who is
directing all this from his jail cell is a hero, indeed, a divinity
of that society, even though the film has to mask its worship of him
as abhorrence.
In the case of that particular film, that's an argument I'm certainly
willing to make. There's a moment in it that gives the game away:
Holly Hunter, the detective investigating the murders, visits the
scene of the latest, where a girl has been shot in her parked
car. "My God," she says in an hushed voice, "he's doing Son of Sam."
It seems to me that the audience is expected to share her awed
recognition of the killer's genius. At a minimum, I'd call
that "serial killer poshlost'," to use a term introduced into our
language by Nabokov in his essay on Gogol.
> I still don't see how this is at all relevant to _Shallow Hal_--I
wasn't
> proposing that the Farrellys cast anyone else in Paltrow's role.
Am I
> still allowed to be offended by _Birth of a Nation_, or is that
also
> playing "gotcha"?
Shallow Hal is a polemic against society's normative ideas about how
we should look. The title character is shallow because he thinks only
beauty is worthy of his love, and needs to be taught a lesson.
Birth of a Nation is a polemic against blacks and in favor of the Ku
Klux Klan.
You have a right to be offended by both, or by any other film, but
one doesn't "discover" racism in Birth of a Nation, a film made to
defend and promote racism, the way one "discovers" normative thinking
in Shallow Hal, a film seemingly made to denounce chastize normative
thinking. The later is what I call a "gotcha." I get a kick out
of "gotchas" too -- but not as much as I used to.
25094
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 5:59am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "From the late 19th century
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century>
> until the 1950s <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950s>, it was
practiced,
> not to enhance, but to control female sexuality, and was advocated
in
> the United States <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States>
together
> with more invasive procedures such as the removal of the clitoris
and
> infibulation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infibulation> by groups
like
> the Orificial Surgery Society
Jane Caputi is one of the authors of the Wikepedia, isn't she? These
references go back to the article she refers to in The Age of Sex
Crime -- it appeared in the first issue of Feminist Review and was
called Sexual Surgery, I think. Incredibly, these procedures --
outlawed in England before they could get started - were performed by
the thousands in my benighted country in the 19th Century. Ritual
clitorectomies are a crime still committed in some parts of the
world. What makes the crimes of the Orificial Surgery Society
especially disgusting is that they were done in the name of science -
like the Holocaust.
I was grateful to Caputi for putting me onto that source. I just
don't buy her attempt to tar Freud with it, which requires skipping a
lot of steps. Her source for that view of Freud, of course, was Kate
Millett, to whom the word "patriarchy" owes much of its current
popularity. And there again, it's hard not to see this planet as
being occupied exclusively by patriarchal societies. As always, the
question is what you do with that idea. Early proponents tended to
wield it like a blunt instrument, but that goes with the territory
when you're a pioneer promulgating a revolutionary ideology.
Since you're interested, Caputi has a more recent collection of
essays that updates her arguments about serial killer culture. I
think it's called something like Gods and Monsters - it was published
last year. But I would also recommend Sara M. Knox's Murder: A Tale
of Modern American Life and Maria Tatar's Lustmord: Sexual Murder in
Weimar Germany as follow-up reading. They have the luxury of coming
after the early battles have been won - at least within the
university system - and are therefore more sophisticated and
searching in their arguments than Caputi, whom they nonetheless cite
discreetly, along with Millett.
Hey, Matt - you're the guy who brought up feminism! I just happen to
have been thinking about it lately too. So far it hasn't shaken my
admiration for Shallow Hal. We'll see what Fever Pitch (opening April
8, and definitely about men and women) adds to the discussion.
25095
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 7:25am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On noelbotevera
Amo tu cama rica - Emilio Martinez Lazaro
Cafe Flesh - Stephen Sayadian
Gojitmal - Jang Sun Woo
Init sa Magdamag - Laurice Guillen (the scriptwriter, incidentally,
is hot)
Jizda - Jan Sverak
Kagi - Kon Ichikawa
L'Age d'Or - Luis Bunuel
Salo - Pier Paolo Pasolini
Scorpio Nights - Peque Gallaga
Straw Dogs - Sam Peckinpah
Ultimo tango a Parigi - Bernardo Bertolucci
Videodrome - David Cronenberg
25096
From: "Saul"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 8:04am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On asitdid
Online Now Send IM
Can one of the people (I think there were at least 2) who listed "In
the Realm of the Senses" as an erotic film explain this to me: I
couldn't think of a film that I found further from erotic – it was so
severe. Did someone here say "Last Tango in Paris"? I'd also love to
know what you found erotic about this – I loved the film – but I can't
quite see how some of the scenes are erotic, e.g.:
Paul: You're alone, you're all alone … and you won't be able to be
free of that feeling of being alone until you look death right in the
face … I mean that sounds like bullshit, some romantic crap … until
you go right up into the ass of death, right up in his ass … till you
find a womb of fear … and then maybe, maybe then you'll be able to
find him.
Jeanne: But I've found this man … he's you … you're that man
Paul: Get the fingernail scissors … I want you to cut the fingernails
on your right hand … these two … I want you to put your fingers up my ass.
Jeanne: Quoi?
Paul: Put your fingers up my ass … are you deaf? … go on … (she does
so) … I'm going to get a pig … and I'm going to have the pig fuck you
… and I want the pig to vomit in your face … and I want you to swallow
the vomit … you going to do that for me
Jeanne: Yeah…
Paul: Huh?
Jeanne: Yeah…
Am I missing something????????????????????????????????????????
25097
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 8:57am
Subject: Re: My List(s) damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
> I'm
> surprised no-one mentioned the Dietrich 'horse-ride' flashback from
> "Rancho Notorious"...............
And Gene Tierney on horseback in Leave Her To Heaven
25098
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 9:49am
Subject: Terrence Malick's GREAT BALLS OF FIRE screenplay thebradstevens
As part of my research for a book I'm writing about Jim McBride, I
finally managed to track down a copy of the first draft screenplay
for GREAT BALLS OF FIRE, which was written by none other than
Terrence Malick. It's a fascinating piece of work, with many clear
traces of Malick's themes and motifs. Here's the opening scene.
-----------------------------------------------
A close-up of piano keys. A pair of hands descend onto the keys, rise
out of frame, then descend onto the keys again. We may assume that
these are the hands of Jerry Lee Lewis. But as the camera pulls back
we see that they belong to MYRA LEWIS, who is sitting in her parents'
house playing 'Chopsticks'. As she plays, a man appears in the
doorway and stands there watching her. This is JERRY LEE LEWIS.
JERRY: Hiya.
MYRA: (startled) Oh, hiya.
JERRY: How's it goin'?
MYRA: Real good. You?
JERRY: Can't complain. (beat) Watcha doin?
MYRA: Playin' the piano.
JERRY: Oh.
There is a long pause.
JERRY: There's a dead dog in your yard.
MYRA: Oh. (beat) What kind is it?
JERRY looks offscreen left, then back at MYRA.
JERRY: A collie.
MYRA: Must be Mrs Anderson's dog. She was always kickin' it 'n'
hittin' it, 'n' she didn't hardly never feed it. So that's probably
why it died.
JERRY: Yeah.
MYRA: Can't figure what it's doin' in our yard, though.
JERRY: Don't appear 't be doin' much of anythin'.
MYRA: I reckon not.
JERRY: Yeah. (after a pause) I'm your cousin, Jerry Lee.
MYRA: I know.
There is a long silence.
JERRY: Well, sure was good t' meet ya.
MYRA: Sure was.
JERRY stands in the doorway a moment longer, then departs. MYRA
begins playing 'Chopsticks' again. As the camera slowly tracks into
her hands, the following voiceover begins.
MYRA: (voiceover) One day in school, our teacher told us about a man
name of Omar Khayyam. Omar Khayyam was a poet. He lived a long time
ago, and he used to talk about this finger that was always movin',
writin' words 'n' such. Only the things this finger wrote, there
weren't no way to erase them. Didn't matter how religious you was, or
how much you could make people laugh. Once this finger wrote
somethin', that was it, and if you didn't like it, well that was just
tough. It was like fate. I personally feel that somethin' very like
that finger must have been writin' the day I met my cousin, Mr Jerry
Lee Lewis. Little did I suspect on that warm September evening that
our destinies would prove to be as intertwined as those of Romeo 'n'
Juliet. Now I'm not claimin' that the years I shared with Jerry Lee
were entirely determined by the workings of fate, but I do suspect
that what happened between us was due to somethin' a great deal more
significant than chance.
As the camera focuses on a MYRA's hands on the piano keys, there is a
match-cut to the keys of another piano. The hands of JERRY LEE LEWIS
descend rapidly onto the keys, and the camera pulls back to reveal
JERRY LEE performing 'Great Balls of Fire' in a night-club. The
opening credits play over this image.
25099
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 9:52am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On joka13us
I don't think anybody has mentioned:
Christopher Plummer and Chana Eden under the stadium seats in WIND
ACROSS THE EVERGLADES.
Oja Kodar in the car in the rain in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.
--
- Joe Kaufman
25100
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 1:25pm
Subject: Ciné-Manga par Takeshi Kitano henrik_sylow
As tradition has it, Cahiers du Cinema invites a, according to them,
grand cinéaste, as guest editor for their double-zero issues. Former
editors were Godard, Wenders, Scorsese, and for the issue number 600,
they invited Kitano Takeshi.
Due to a busy schedule, Kitano declined, but instead offered a little
game, which eventually became the booklet "ciné-mange par Takeshi
Kitano", which comes as a supplement to issue number 600.
Kitano took 69 pictures from around Japan and Africa, and of friends,
from which a group of invited directors then would pick 4 and create a
little story. The directors who took on the challenge were: Oliver
Assayas, Bertrand Bonello, Catherine Breillat, Arnaud des Pallières,
Arnaud Desplechin, Jacques Doillion, Yervant Gianikian, Angela Ricci
Lucchi, Hong Sang-Soo, Kiyoshi Kurosawa, Claude Lanzmann, Rithy Panh,
Gus van Sant and Apichatpong Weerasethakul.
The result of the game is 30 stories demonstrating with what simple
means one can express thoughts and ideas. Where some of the stories
are mere constructions of the images, some of the directors used the
images to create small almost storyboard like stories, which even uses
cinematic techniques. One such is the story by Thai cinéaste
Apichatpong Weerasethakul, who with three images creates a beautiful
comment on the differences between poor and wealthy, using one image
twice, thus making the third image a subjective insert.
Also in the booklet is a 12 page conversation between Kitano and
Shiguehiko Hasumi, where he notes upon editing, his ouevre, on history
versus zatoichi, on Godard and finally on his goals as professor.
Henrik
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