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2201
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:13pm
Subject: Re: John Ford: right or left?
"Seven Women" is blatantly racist.
Of course there's no use talkign to this group about
such fine points of film craft. Ford is God and
anybody who says otherwise is Satan.
--- Rick Segreda wrote:
> You do raise a good question, Tag. I mean, he made
> the very New Dealish "The Grapes of Wrath," "How
> Green Was my Valley" took a sympathetic view of the
> striking miners, and late in his career, with
> "Cheyenne Autumn," "Seven Women," and "Seargent
> Rutlidge" he almost outdid Stanley Kramer laying a
> guilt trip on the audience for being racist and
> sexist.
>
> Yet, his films, for better or worse, are very
> hardcore patriotic, pro-military, and pro-family
> values. He still upholds traditional notions of
> chivalry, duty, and responsibility. There is no
> moral relativism, no Bergman-like religious doubts,
> no making fun of the church, no questioning of the
> majesty of the law, no regrets about engaging in war
> and battle, no mockery of nationalistic pride (could
> you imagine Ford making "Paths of Glory?"). So in a
> sense, Ford was more "conservative" than
> "right-wing."
>
>
> Tag Gallagher wrote:>
> >
> > Ford was right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
>
>
> Ford was not right-wing. Why is that so hard to
> admit?
>
> >
> > Does it make me regard him as being unworthy of
> > serious respect? Of course not. "Seven Women" s
> one of
> > my favorite films.
>
> Tell me how 7 Women is right-wing.
>
>
> >
> >
> > And I don't know what version of "My Son John" you
> saw
> > but it must have been different from the one
> Robert
> > Warshow wrote about and that I saw.
>
>
> My argument, in context of McCarey's career:
>
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast/firstrelease/fr1201/tgfr13a.htm
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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2202
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Politics, Art, & Life
Oliver Stone is a sad excuse for a left-wing
filmmaker.
"JFK" is an abomination, and so is "Natural Born
Killers."
--- Rick Segreda wrote:
> ""Dreiser and James: with that juxtaposition we are
> immediately at the dark and bloody crossroads where
> literature and politics meet." -Lionell Trilling
>
> And I am left wondering why being right-wing and
> ant-communist is any more of a transgression than
> being left-wing and liberal. Certainly, as far as I
> am concerned, Oliver Stone has made for a compelling
> example that a talented left-wing filmmaker can be a
> total and complete idiot (i.e; reverentlly speaking
> of the 9/11 attack as "the uprising," or his kissing
> Castro's ass).
>
> It's unfortunate, but true: at a certain point we
> have to seperate an artist from his work. I think
> Roman Polanski is a great filmmaker, but how he
> conducted his personal life (drugging and raping a
> minor) was pretty venal. Ditto for many other great
> filmmakers, writers, and other artists. You'll find
> very few artists in this world who are great role
> models for living.
>
>
> David Ehrenstein wrote:
> What "nasty word"?
>
> Ford was right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
> Does it make me regard him as being unworthy of
> serious respect? Of course not. "Seven Women" s one
> of
> my favorite films.
>
> And I don't know what version of "My Son John" you
> saw
> but it must have been different from the one Robert
> Warshow wrote about and that I saw.
>
> Want to talk about "Satan Never Sleeps"?
>
>
> --- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> > If My Son John speaks for itself, then McCarey was
> > on the left.
> >
> > Ford had almost nothing to do with Vietnam
> Vietnam.
> > I wonder if you
> > have seen the film. And maybe you would care to
> > explain why this movie
> > so utterly negates everything Ford did between
> 1917
> > and 1965, that you
> > can sum up his whol oeuvre in one nasty word.
> >
> >
> >
> > David Ehrenstein wrote:
> >
> > > I just knew this can or worms was going to be
> > opened.
> > >
> > > "My Son John" and "Vietnam Vietnam" speak for
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > --- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> > > > That's a terrible charge to make against Ford.
>
> > And
> > > > not merited.
> > > >
> > > > Damien Bona wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > thank God for the lefty-ness of Jean
> > > > > Renoir, Douglas Sirk and Blake Edwards,
> which
> > > > balances out Leo
> > > > > McCarey and John Ford.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
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> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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2203
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Preminger, Hellman, and Allen
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
wrote:
> >
> > - The Human Factor (Preminger, 79)
> >
> > I recently re-
> watched Preminger's last film and am closer than ever to
> > agreeing with Dave Kehr (and Tag Gallagher) that it's the gr
> eatest of the late
> > Preminger films.
>
> I think it's the greatest of all Preminger's films.
>
> The final shot (whose imagery Preminger chose to replicate i
> n
> > the Saul Bass opening titles) is shattering in its depiction
> of the latter.
>
> I think the final shot is further proof that all the talk
> about Preminger being a cold filmmaker are nonsense. How many
> films has a final shot as devasting as this?
>
>
I haven't seen The Human factor in at least fifteen years and your
remark on the final shot makes me want to look at it again, as I
remember being dissatisfied with that closing scene. in "American
Directors," in which I praised the film as his best since "Bunny Like
Is Missing", I wrote: "... the understated pathos of the closing
sequence fails to move us, probably because the seedy Moscow
apartment in which it is supposed to take place looks painfully like
a stage set -- a rare instance of an inability on P's part to make a
set look authentic." Still I have a quite vivid recollection of the
scene. Maybe I was wrong. However I certainly wouldn't go as far as
saying this is his best film! Still, after the disastrous four of
five titles that preceded it, it was an impressive return to form.
> > JPC
> > -
> Silent Night, Deadly Night 3: Better Watch Out (Hellman, 89)
> >
> > Let me join Bill and Filipe as someone who loves this late H
> ellman film, the
> > last he's directed to date. This is a marvelous movie which
> has Hellman's
> > mise en scene in full force.
>
> He says that it's his best directed film.
>
>
> It's fascinating to watch his minimalist aesthetic
> > "interact" with the tropes of this horror/serial killer movi
> e;
>
> When I wrote a small monograph on Hellman a few months ago, I
> use this as the starting point for my chapter about Hellman's
> relationship with genre. I think he does some wonderful
> things here and who else would make a film as effective as
> this from a sequel to a 80's slasher film about a killing
> santa claus?
> With regards to the latter,
> > I also think the film's a kind of fairy tale.
>
>
> It has, I keep thinking this was the weirdest version of
> Little Red Riding Hood imaginable. I also think Hellman
> manage to make an oddly evocative romance and a strong
> exploration of the space separating his carachters. As
> curiosity, this was the first Hellman film that I saw, and I
> was turned into a fan from the dream sequence on.
>
>
> Filipe
>
>
> ---
> Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
> AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
> http://antipopup.uol.com.br
2204
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:36pm
Subject: Lets open a window...
Dear fellow members,
I have seldom seen so many well educated adults behave so childish.
This is not some chatroom where you need to put people down in order
to be king of the hill.
"Riefelstahl is a nazi bich, Kazan is a fucking rat who needs a bullet
thru his head and John Ford is now a left and right wing racist."
This is polimic of the worst kind and I wonder why scholars as you
sink to it. Perhaps Im out of order, but I find the tone hostile and
arbitrary.
Personally I dont care what type of person Kazan or Ford where. I
treasure their skill as director. If we are to wroth them for personal
traits, then who are we to blame if others do likewise if a film maker
is homosexual or jewish or black?
So lets open a window at lets have a cold breeze clean out old stuffed
stale air.
With kind regards
Henrik
2205
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Lets open a window...
You're no fun at all, Henrik.
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> Dear fellow members,
>
> I have seldom seen so many well educated adults
> behave so childish.
> This is not some chatroom where you need to put
> people down in order
> to be king of the hill.
>
> "Riefelstahl is a nazi bich, Kazan is a fucking rat
> who needs a bullet
> thru his head and John Ford is now a left and right
> wing racist."
>
> This is polimic of the worst kind and I wonder why
> scholars as you
> sink to it. Perhaps Im out of order, but I find the
> tone hostile and
> arbitrary.
>
> Personally I dont care what type of person Kazan or
> Ford where. I
> treasure their skill as director. If we are to wroth
> them for personal
> traits, then who are we to blame if others do
> likewise if a film maker
> is homosexual or jewish or black?
>
> So lets open a window at lets have a cold breeze
> clean out old stuffed
> stale air.
>
> With kind regards
> Henrik
>
>
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2206
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Lets open a window...
I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing will do more to kill the pleasure of honest inquiry than resorting to mean, ugly, nasty posting. I personally don't find that any fun.
Henrik Sylow wrote:Dear fellow members,
I have seldom seen so many well educated adults behave so childish.
This is not some chatroom where you need to put people down in order
to be king of the hill.
"Riefelstahl is a nazi bich, Kazan is a fucking rat who needs a bullet
thru his head and John Ford is now a left and right wing racist."
This is polimic of the worst kind and I wonder why scholars as you
sink to it. Perhaps Im out of order, but I find the tone hostile and
arbitrary.
Personally I dont care what type of person Kazan or Ford where. I
treasure their skill as director. If we are to wroth them for personal
traits, then who are we to blame if others do likewise if a film maker
is homosexual or jewish or black?
So lets open a window at lets have a cold breeze clean out old stuffed
stale air.
With kind regards
Henrik
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2207
From:
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 3:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Preminger, Hellman, and Allen
First off, a big welcome to Jean-Pierre Coursodon. I know many here are
admirers of "American Directors," as I am.
>in "American
>Directors," in which I praised the film as his best since "Bunny Like
>Is Missing", I wrote: "... the understated pathos of the closing
>sequence fails to move us, probably because the seedy Moscow
>apartment in which it is supposed to take place looks painfully like
>a stage set -- a rare instance of an inability on P's part to make a
>set look authentic."
You know, I also thought it looked like a set - or at least more like a set
than the rest of the film, which appeared to be shot entirely on real locations
(which sometimes necessitated, apparently, the use of handheld cameras to fit
into tight corridors). But, oddly enough, I felt this worked to the scene's
ultimate advantage: it emphasized, if perhaps unintentionally, the distance
between Williamson and Iman in very tangible visual terms.
Anyway, I'm so taken with "The Human Factor" right now that I could almost agr
ee with Filipe that it's Preminger's best. I only have to think of "Daisy
Kenyon" and "Bonjour tristesse" to bring me back to earth, but I still think
"The Human Factor" is right up there at the summit of his art.
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2208
From:
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 3:14pm
Subject: Re: Preminger
In a message dated 10/4/03 1:34:55 PM, auteurwannabe2000@y... writes:
>My favorite late Preminger movie is "Tell me that you love me, Junie Moon."
>For me, the story, the acting, the script, the direction all come together
>in a work of art that is both funny and moving.
I like "Junie Moon" a great deal, though not as much as "The Human Factor"
and perhaps "Such Good Friends." But in some ways it's even more interesting to
me than "Skidoo" as an example of the very strange and unexpected turns
Preminger took in the late '60s and early '70s. Put together its almost total
focus on the downtrodden (which, as Chris Fujiwara pointed out in his Great
Directors piece on Preminger, contrasts markedly with the director's usual frequent
interest in the powerful) and its radical form (the flashbacks are amazing and
the party sequence I already mentioned is about as odd as anything you're
going to see in a narrative film, I think) and you have a film which verges on
the experimental for this director.
His comments in the Bogdanovich interview lead me to believe that Preminger
was unusually fond of this film and its characters.
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2209
From: David Westling
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 7:25pm
Subject: RE: Politics, Art, and Life
Rick Segreda:
> And I am left wondering why being right-wing and ant-communist is any more of
> a transgression than being left-wing and liberal.
It can't be any worse than being a radical grasshopper-socialist.
David Westling
2210
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 7:57pm
Subject: Late Preminger
The last scene of The Human Factor appears to be taking place on a
set for a Saturday Night Live skit. The reason is anecdotal, then
esthetic, perhaps doubly so: The producers ran out of money and
defaulted, so OP had to sell some of his art collection to finish the
film. Perhaps he prefered to hold on to the Rauschenberg and build a
cheap set for the hero's Moscow apartment, which obviously couldn't
be shot on location. The way he films it makes absolutely no bones
about this, and I think it's beautiful.
I like late Preminger, but people whose taste I respect (Jean-Claude
Biette, M. Coursodon) don't. I prefer to have tastes that are deviant
with respect to the mainstream, but I've had deviant tastes for so
long that I'm not shattered to find myself out in left field again,
so here is my defense:
A key stylistic trait of middle Preminger in particular (although I
agree with Godard that far too much has been made of it) was the all-
in-one, which has been interpreted a million different ways. One
thing it does, it seems to me, is create a minimal unity of several
different things within one time-space block, corresponding to the
camera's point of view.
In late Preminger, that is a ship that has sailed, beginning with In
Harm's Way, where we realize that he has always been at least as
interested in the heterogeneity of the contents as he was in the
unity of the container: the proliferation of frames-within-the-frame
in Rosebud, each corresponding to a different national politics,
are the most didactic example of that. The disparate members of the
community in Junie Moon (one of whom has two faces) are another.
James Coco and Dyan Cannon, God knows, or Skidooo in its entirety,
are others.
I saw Junie Moon on acid when it opened and am still waiting to at
least see it again in 35 before revisiting it - it's a film that
would barely exist on video, with or without LSD - but my
recollection is that it was the best of a rich, if admittedly rather
bizarre, late period.
2211
From: jrosenbaum2002
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
Chris, You really should see "Panic in the Streets," which I regard
as the best of Kazan's black and white films (apart from "Baby Doll,"
perhaps), and which, incidentally, Straub and Huillet are big fans
of, having programmed this film on occasion with some of their own. I
would also associate Kazan's black and white with his location
shooting, which enhances even the overrated films (e.g., "On the
Waterfront"). And I should add that all of Kazan's films with
southern settings are more accurate in their employments of southern
accents than almost any others employing nonsouthern actors; he
actually employed speech specialists to train his actors because he
regarded this as important.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "chris_fujiwara"
wrote:
> A.O. Scott had a piece in the New York Times last week noting that
> Kazan's films have been rated lower in the "auteurist pantheon"
than
> those of Nicholas Ray. Scott thought this was because Kazan's films
> were "readily embraced and easily understood" by audiences and
Oscar
> voters. The simpler explanation - that Ray's films are better -
> doesn't seem to have occurred to him.
>
> I've long thought there were two Kazans: a black-and-white one and
a
> color one. The black-and-white Kazan is bombastic and clumsy in his
> personal films, and less personal than Preminger, Mankiewicz, and
> King in his Zanuck films. I'm willing to make a temporary exception
> for Baby Doll which I haven't seen in 15 years and which struck me
at
> the time as slightly above the director's usual level, more like a
> Buñuel film. All the other black-and-white films I've seen,
including
> America America which I especially wanted to like, range from
limited
> in interest (Boomerang! which at least has Dana Andrews and Arthur
> Kennedy) to almost unwatchable (Streetcar, Face in the Crowd).
>
> The color Kazan made one film I like a lot, Wild River, which is a
> little too concerned with its political balance (put beside Wind
> across the Everglades which is thematically very similar) but which
> has some excellent scenes and three excellent performances and
which
> does everything it needs to do in order to work - on its level, a
> perfect film.
>
> I find Splendor in the Grass, even though I must concede that it
> comes dangerously close to being an "unmodulated piece of hysteria"
> in Damien's words, a moving if lesser companion piece to such works
> of middle-America romanticism as Rebel without a Cause, Tea and
> Sympathy, and Some Came Running. Maybe Splendor benefits from being
> seen as part of a diptych with Wild River.
>
> East of Eden is an interesting early-Scope film. The Arrangement is
> ridiculous, but I find it more appealing than some of Kazan's
better-
> regarded films. I haven't seen The Visitors or The Last Tycoon.
2212
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 8:03pm
Subject: Re: John Ford: right or left?
-
This exchange makes me chuckle because Rick Segreda is mouthing all
the anti-Ford cliches (on ideological rather than artistic grounds)
used more than thirty years ago by most "left-wing" French critics as
well as by some middle-of-the-road and even right-wing ones. Ford's
was an incredibly complex personality and he just can't be reduced to
simplistic stereotypes. I have to agree with Tag here (even though we
spend a lot of time off-line arguing with each other...)
-- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
>
>
> Rick Segreda wrote:
>
> > You do raise a good question, Tag. I mean, he made the very New
> > Dealish "The Grapes of Wrath," "How Green Was my Valley" took a
> > sympathetic view of the striking miners, and late in his career,
with
> > "Cheyenne Autumn," "Seven Women," and "Seargent Rutlidge" he
almost
> > outdid Stanley Kramer laying a guilt trip on the audience for
being
> > racist and sexist.
> >
> > Yet, his films, for better or worse, are very hardcore patriotic,
>
> I don't know what hardcore means here. Can one be left-wing and be
> patriotic?
> .
>
> > pro-military,
>
> One can be left-wing and be pro-military.
> I probably disagree vehemently that Ford is pro-military. I spent
600
> pages arguing this in my book.
>
> > and pro-family values.
>
> What on earth does that mean?
> Most of his films are about families that are split because of
vicious
> community intolerance. He wants to get them back together again.
Is
> that what you're referring to?
>
>
> > He still upholds traditional notions of chivalry, duty, and
> > responsibility.
>
> None of these are anymore right- than left-wing.
> He sympathizes with John Wayne slapping the rump Maureen O'Hara and
> Elizabeth Allen...
> Duty is the source of most evil in Ford's way of seeing things.
>
> > There is no moral relativism,
>
> I think what sets Ford apart (and above) almost all other
filmmakers is
> that he sees much more moral relativism.
>
> > no Bergman-like religious doubts,
>
> 7 Women. And many other pictures.
>
>
> > no making fun of the church,
>
> The Quiet Man. 7 Women.
>
> > no questioning of the majesty of the law,
>
> He has a film by that name which questions it.
>
> > no regrets about engaging in war and battle,
>
> In almost every movie. And in marked contrast to Hawks who thinks
these
> things are marvelous.
>
> > no mockery of nationalistic pride (could you imagine Ford making
> > "Paths of Glory?").
>
> He did, several times, with far more mockery than Kubrick's
simplstic
> one-note toot could manage.
>
> > So in a sense, Ford was more "conservative" than "right-wing."
>
> Only in nonsense.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Tag Gallagher wrote:>
> > >
> > > Ford was right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
> >
> >
> > Ford was not right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
> >
> > >
> > > Does it make me regard him as being unworthy of
> > > serious respect? Of course not. "Seven Women" s one of
> > > my favorite films.
> >
> > Tell me how 7 Women is right-wing.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > And I don't know what version of "My Son John" you saw
> > > but it must have been different from the one Robert
> > > Warshow wrote about and that I saw.
> >
> >
> > My argument, in context of McCarey's career:
> >
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast/firstrelease/fr1201/tgfr13a
.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=256694.4002236.5216697.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
05021019:HM/A=1784493/R=0/id=noscript/SIG=11q7p9e7k/*http://webevents.
yahoo.com/universal/intolerablecruelty/>
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> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2213
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 8:26pm
Subject: Re: Late Preminger
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> The last scene of The Human Factor appears to be taking place on a
> set for a Saturday Night Live skit. The reason is anecdotal, then
> esthetic, perhaps doubly so: The producers ran out of money and
> defaulted, so OP had to sell some of his art collection to finish
the
> film. Perhaps he prefered to hold on to the Rauschenberg and build
a
> cheap set for the hero's Moscow apartment, which obviously couldn't
> be shot on location. The way he films it makes absolutely no bones
> about this, and I think it's beautiful.
>
> I like late Preminger, but people whose taste I respect (Jean-
Claude
> Biette, M. Coursodon) don't. I prefer to have tastes that are
deviant
> with respect to the mainstream, but I've had deviant tastes for so
> long that I'm not shattered to find myself out in left field again,
I guess I'm old enough not to feel offended by being dumped
into the mainstrean (along with Biette, too, who was everything
but....) Most everybody has deviant tastes in relation to some other
body's tastes. It is actually quite conventional among film buffs to
have a preference for minor or seriously flawed movies, especially
those of great directors. Especially their late efforts. The Cahiers
du Cinema's early gang started it all. Renoir's latest just had to be
his greatest, so Le dejeuner sur l'herbe was a masterpiece. Same with
Hawks; or Preminger for that matter.
JPC
2215
From: (unknown)
Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:19am
Subject:
2217
From: (unknown)
Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:19am
Subject:
2218
From: (unknown)
Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:19am
Subject:
2219
From: (unknown)
Date: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:19am
Subject:
2220
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: Re: Lets open a window...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> You're no fun at all, Henrik.
>
Henrik is both right and no fun. As a newcomer to this Line I'm
glad to find that like every other internet Line I have been exposed
to it provides a forum for people to scream at each other. What's
wrong about venting?
> --- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> > Dear fellow members,
> >
> > I have seldom seen so many well educated adults
> > behave so childish.
> > This is not some chatroom where you need to put
> > people down in order
> > to be king of the hill.
> >
> > "Riefelstahl is a nazi bich, Kazan is a fucking rat
> > who needs a bullet
> > thru his head and John Ford is now a left and right
> > wing racist."
> >
> > This is polimic of the worst kind and I wonder why
> > scholars as you
> > sink to it. Perhaps Im out of order, but I find the
> > tone hostile and
> > arbitrary.
> >
> > Personally I dont care what type of person Kazan or
> > Ford where. I
> > treasure their skill as director. If we are to wroth
> > them for personal
> > traits, then who are we to blame if others do
> > likewise if a film maker
> > is homosexual or jewish or black?
> >
> > So lets open a window at lets have a cold breeze
> > clean out old stuffed
> > stale air.
> >
> > With kind regards
> > Henrik
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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2221
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 11:30pm
Subject: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
Howit Kutrz?
-Jaime
2222
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 0:22am
Subject: Ford, Mankiewicz, strange bedfellows
While we are talking about Ford and Kazan, it should be worth noting that at a legendary meeting of Hollywood directors back in the fifties, when the studios were debating whether or not to blacklist Joseph L. Mankiewicz, it was Ford who stood up to truly rabid right-winger Cecil B. DeMille, who was eager to have Mankiewicz bannished from Hollywood, and saved Mankiewicz's career.
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2223
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 0:25am
Subject: Re: Lets open a window...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> Dear fellow members,
>
> I have seldom seen so many well educated adults behave so childish.
> This is not some chatroom where you need to put people down in
order
> to be king of the hill.
>
> "Riefelstahl is a nazi bich, Kazan is a fucking rat who needs a
bullet
> thru his head and John Ford is now a left and right wing racist
Hmmm, I don't remember reading put-downs of posters in this thread.
And I certainly don't recall anyone saying that Kazan needs a bullet
through his head (it's too late now, anyway).
."
>
>
> Personally I dont care what type of person Kazan or Ford where. I
> treasure their skill as director. If we are to wroth them for
personal
> traits, then who are we to blame if others do likewise if a film
maker
> is homosexual or jewish or black?
>
I couldn't disagree more, I think that knowing about the personal
life/ beliefs/ personality of an artist in any field illuminates our
understanding of him or her because these aspects inform what and how
they create. Kazan's testimony before HUAC was perhaps the most
defining moment of his life, and knowledge of what he did can only
help us better understand his post-1952 films.
That Polanski lost his family in the Holocaust, that Minnelli was a
display artist at Marshall Field and a theatrical set designer, that
George Cukor was gay are three examples of real-life experiences that
assist us in analyzing their work. And the same holds with
someone's political beliefs.
-- Damien
2224
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:30am
Subject: Re: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
Sorry -- Howie Kurtz
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> Howit Kutrz?
>
> -Jaime
>
>
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2225
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 0:13am
Subject: Hey! I happen to LIKE John Ford
Here's that weird idealogical thing again -- right wing=evil. I am not anti-Ford; I never have been. And I don't being pro-military, pro-family values, and patriotic is all that bad.
jpcoursodon wrote:-
This exchange makes me chuckle because Rick Segreda is mouthing all
the anti-Ford cliches (on ideological rather than artistic grounds)
used more than thirty years ago by most "left-wing" French critics as
well as by some middle-of-the-road and even right-wing ones. Ford's
was an incredibly complex personality and he just can't be reduced to
simplistic stereotypes. I have to agree with Tag here (even though we
spend a lot of time off-line arguing with each other...)
-- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
>
>
> Rick Segreda wrote:
>
> > You do raise a good question, Tag. I mean, he made the very New
> > Dealish "The Grapes of Wrath," "How Green Was my Valley" took a
> > sympathetic view of the striking miners, and late in his career,
with
> > "Cheyenne Autumn," "Seven Women," and "Seargent Rutlidge" he
almost
> > outdid Stanley Kramer laying a guilt trip on the audience for
being
> > racist and sexist.
> >
> > Yet, his films, for better or worse, are very hardcore patriotic,
>
> I don't know what hardcore means here. Can one be left-wing and be
> patriotic?
> .
>
> > pro-military,
>
> One can be left-wing and be pro-military.
> I probably disagree vehemently that Ford is pro-military. I spent
600
> pages arguing this in my book.
>
> > and pro-family values.
>
> What on earth does that mean?
> Most of his films are about families that are split because of
vicious
> community intolerance. He wants to get them back together again.
Is
> that what you're referring to?
>
>
> > He still upholds traditional notions of chivalry, duty, and
> > responsibility.
>
> None of these are anymore right- than left-wing.
> He sympathizes with John Wayne slapping the rump Maureen O'Hara and
> Elizabeth Allen...
> Duty is the source of most evil in Ford's way of seeing things.
>
> > There is no moral relativism,
>
> I think what sets Ford apart (and above) almost all other
filmmakers is
> that he sees much more moral relativism.
>
> > no Bergman-like religious doubts,
>
> 7 Women. And many other pictures.
>
>
> > no making fun of the church,
>
> The Quiet Man. 7 Women.
>
> > no questioning of the majesty of the law,
>
> He has a film by that name which questions it.
>
> > no regrets about engaging in war and battle,
>
> In almost every movie. And in marked contrast to Hawks who thinks
these
> things are marvelous.
>
> > no mockery of nationalistic pride (could you imagine Ford making
> > "Paths of Glory?").
>
> He did, several times, with far more mockery than Kubrick's
simplstic
> one-note toot could manage.
>
> > So in a sense, Ford was more "conservative" than "right-wing."
>
> Only in nonsense.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Tag Gallagher wrote:>
> > >
> > > Ford was right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
> >
> >
> > Ford was not right-wing. Why is that so hard to admit?
> >
> > >
> > > Does it make me regard him as being unworthy of
> > > serious respect? Of course not. "Seven Women" s one of
> > > my favorite films.
> >
> > Tell me how 7 Women is right-wing.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > And I don't know what version of "My Son John" you saw
> > > but it must have been different from the one Robert
> > > Warshow wrote about and that I saw.
> >
> >
> > My argument, in context of McCarey's career:
> >
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast/firstrelease/fr1201/tgfr13a
.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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2226
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:34am
Subject: Re: Preminger
My boyfriend Bill Reed was living in John Phillip
Law's basement (don't ask!) during the shooting of
"Skidoo." He writes all about it in his memoir "Early
Plastic," which is available on-line.
--- ptonguette@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/4/03 1:34:55 PM,
> auteurwannabe2000@y... writes:
>
> >My favorite late Preminger movie is "Tell me that
> you love me, Junie Moon."
> >For me, the story, the acting, the script, the
> direction all come together
> >in a work of art that is both funny and moving.
>
> I like "Junie Moon" a great deal, though not as much
> as "The Human Factor"
> and perhaps "Such Good Friends." But in some ways
> it's even more interesting to
> me than "Skidoo" as an example of the very strange
> and unexpected turns
> Preminger took in the late '60s and early '70s. Put
> together its almost total
> focus on the downtrodden (which, as Chris Fujiwara
> pointed out in his Great
> Directors piece on Preminger, contrasts markedly
> with the director's usual frequent
> interest in the powerful) and its radical form (the
> flashbacks are amazing and
> the party sequence I already mentioned is about as
> odd as anything you're
> going to see in a narrative film, I think) and you
> have a film which verges on
> the experimental for this director.
>
> His comments in the Bogdanovich interview lead me to
> believe that Preminger
> was unusually fond of this film and its characters.
>
> Peter
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
>
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2227
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2003 11:51pm
Subject: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> That's a terrible charge to make against Ford. And not merited.
>
Ford -- along with McCarey -- was a member of the ironically-titled
Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, so I
think it's perfectly fair to say he was right-wing. Granted, Ford
played a pivotal role in fighting the Directors Guild loyalty oath,
which evidences his iconoclasm and unpredictability.
In any case, I still cherish him above all other filmmakers.
2228
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 2:03am
Subject: Re: Hey! I happen to LIKE John Ford
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Rick Segreda
wrote:
right wing = evil.
Well, of course it does.
2229
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 2:48am
Subject: Re: Re: Hey! I happen to LIKE John Ford
SING OUT LOUISE!
--- Damien Bona wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Rick Segreda
> wrote:
> right wing = evil.
>
> Well, of course it does.
>
>
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2230
From: chris_fujiwara
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 2:48am
Subject: panic, pinky, dovzhenko, late but not very late ford
Jonathan: I know a good recommendation when I hear one. I'll
certainly check out Panic in the Streets, which I must plead guilty
to never having seen (I've seen only parts of it from time to time on
TV).
The evocation of the South is one of the things that makes Wild River
so good.
Another Kazan I've never seen is Pinky, which in view of the recent
Ford controversy I wonder if anyone can enlighten us about.
Ford, Welles, Dovzhenko, Fuller, Siegel are all filmmakers who
challenge banal left/right categorization. So is Godard (explicitly,
in Made in USA).
Which isn't to say that it's unimportant to consider the politics of
their films, or that their films somehow transcend the political. On
the contrary.
I'm not sure that the portrayal of native Americans in Two Rode
Together is not racist, but it strikes me as a film that clearly
attacks racism, without letting the audience occupy the position of
no-racists-here granted by liberal discourses on race.
A great thing about Sergeant Rutledge and Cheyenne Autumn is that
they never address a complacent viewer. A casual view might take them
for films that are merely "anti-racist," but they go beyond that, and
one place they go - along with Two Rode Together - is to get us to
ask whether we know what racism is, what race is. These films are all
critiques of a society founded on distinctions that someday everyone
will recognize as illusory. The films force us to compare this
society with "our own" (and that of the United States in the '60s)
and to examine "our own" boundaries, distinctions, and fears.
(Though I realize the force of this argument is diminished in an age
when people publish defenses of Michael Winner's Death Wish, for
example, using a similar line.)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jrosenbaum2002"
wrote:
> Chris, You really should see "Panic in the Streets," which I regard
> as the best of Kazan's black and white films (apart from "Baby
Doll,"
> perhaps), and which, incidentally, Straub and Huillet are big fans
> of, having programmed this film on occasion with some of their own.
I
> would also associate Kazan's black and white with his location
> shooting, which enhances even the overrated films (e.g., "On the
> Waterfront"). And I should add that all of Kazan's films with
> southern settings are more accurate in their employments of
southern
> accents than almost any others employing nonsouthern actors; he
> actually employed speech specialists to train his actors because he
> regarded this as important.
2231
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:10am
Subject: Re: panic, pinky, dovzhenko, late but not very late ford
"Pinky" started off as a Ford project, but he backed
away and it was given to Kazan.
There's a very interesting passage in Kazan's
autobiography where he's talking with Ethel Waters and
and tells her she doesn't like white people. Ethel
heartily agrees.
I suspect this is what put Ford off.
Late Ford always seems to be apologizing for earlier
Ford. "Two Rode Together" is partial corrective of
some of the more off-putting aspects of "The
Searchers."
"Cheyenne Autumn" could have been a Stanley Kramer
production.
I've always loved (albeit for camp reasons) the
climatic scene of "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" where the
old chieftain tells John Wayne -- who's trying to
head-off a disaterous confrontation between the troops
and the natives -- "Too late, Nathan -- too late!"
I've found many opportunites for the utilization of
this line.
--- chris_fujiwara wrote:
> Jonathan: I know a good recommendation when I hear
> one. I'll
> certainly check out Panic in the Streets, which I
> must plead guilty
> to never having seen (I've seen only parts of it
> from time to time on
> TV).
>
> The evocation of the South is one of the things that
> makes Wild River
> so good.
>
> Another Kazan I've never seen is Pinky, which in
> view of the recent
> Ford controversy I wonder if anyone can enlighten us
> about.
>
> Ford, Welles, Dovzhenko, Fuller, Siegel are all
> filmmakers who
> challenge banal left/right categorization. So is
> Godard (explicitly,
> in Made in USA).
>
> Which isn't to say that it's unimportant to consider
> the politics of
> their films, or that their films somehow transcend
> the political. On
> the contrary.
>
> I'm not sure that the portrayal of native Americans
> in Two Rode
> Together is not racist, but it strikes me as a film
> that clearly
> attacks racism, without letting the audience occupy
> the position of
> no-racists-here granted by liberal discourses on
> race.
>
> A great thing about Sergeant Rutledge and Cheyenne
> Autumn is that
> they never address a complacent viewer. A casual
> view might take them
> for films that are merely "anti-racist," but they go
> beyond that, and
> one place they go - along with Two Rode Together -
> is to get us to
> ask whether we know what racism is, what race is.
> These films are all
> critiques of a society founded on distinctions that
> someday everyone
> will recognize as illusory. The films force us to
> compare this
> society with "our own" (and that of the United
> States in the '60s)
> and to examine "our own" boundaries, distinctions,
> and fears.
>
> (Though I realize the force of this argument is
> diminished in an age
> when people publish defenses of Michael Winner's
> Death Wish, for
> example, using a similar line.)
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jrosenbaum2002"
> wrote:
> > Chris, You really should see "Panic in the
> Streets," which I regard
> > as the best of Kazan's black and white films
> (apart from "Baby
> Doll,"
> > perhaps), and which, incidentally, Straub and
> Huillet are big fans
> > of, having programmed this film on occasion with
> some of their own.
> I
> > would also associate Kazan's black and white with
> his location
> > shooting, which enhances even the overrated films
> (e.g., "On the
> > Waterfront"). And I should add that all of Kazan's
> films with
> > southern settings are more accurate in their
> employments of
> southern
> > accents than almost any others employing
> nonsouthern actors; he
> > actually employed speech specialists to train his
> actors because he
> > regarded this as important.
>
>
>
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2232
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
Ford was not a member of the MP Alliance. He thought they were idiots.
Damien Bona wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> > That's a terrible charge to make against Ford. And not merited.
> >
> Ford -- along with McCarey -- was a member of the ironically-titled
> Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals, so I
> think it's perfectly fair to say he was right-wing. Granted, Ford
> played a pivotal role in fighting the Directors Guild loyalty oath,
> which evidences his iconoclasm and unpredictability.
>
> In any case, I still cherish him above all other filmmakers.
>
2233
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:40am
Subject: Read All About it!
Tag has written a marvelous piece about Joseph L.
Mankiewicz's work as a producer for "Senses of
Cinema":
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/03/28/joseph_mankiewicz.html
The only thing I'd add is that the reason Stevens
(briefly) walked off the set of "Woman of the Year"
was his personal frustration with Hepburn. They had an
affair during the shooting of "Alice Adams," and she
was starting it up again on "Woman of the Year" until
Tracy caught her fancy -- leaving Stevens in the lurch.
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2234
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:21am
Subject: American Splendor
I just attended a showing of "American Splendor," based on the Harvey Pekar comics; it is the most life affirming movie for lonely, frustrated, overeducated, unfulfilled dreamers (hey, there's no one like that in THIS forum) I have ever seen. There's a lot to rave about in this very funny, creative, and touching work of art, but I will just highlight it's witty Pirendellian pyrotechnics. It features two actors, Paul Giamatti and Hope Davis, portraying Harvey Pekar and his wife, Joyce Brabner, as well as the Pekars themselves. But in addition to that, there is this one scene where Giamatti/Davis Pekars fly out to LA to watch a stage adaptation of their work, featuring yet another pair of thespians acting out their lives. Sort of like the little sailor on the Cracker Jacks box holding a box of Cracker Jacks featuring a little sailor holding...
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2235
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:56am
Subject: Re: Kazan: the balance sheet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> Ford was not a member of the MP Alliance. He thought they were
idiots.
>
I'm not trying to create a battle of the Ford biographers but Joe
McBride wrote that Ford was a member. And all the research I've done
says that Ford did indeed join the Alliance.
As for personal poliitical beliefs and cinematic craft, Ward Bond was
probably the dominant force behind the Motion Picture Alliance so I
despise everything he stood for in the real world but yet he's right
there in my pantheon of great characters along with Henry Travers and
Cuddles Sakal and Alan Hale. I can't even begin to count the times
Ward Bond has moved me to my soul in movies.
2236
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:50am
Subject: Re: John Ford: right or left?
.I agree with Tag one hundred per cent here.
As for "no making fun of the church," I have this to add: "How Green Was
My Valley."
I don't think throwing epithets like "right wing" or "left wing" around
is all that helpful this side of Leni Riefenstahl. There may be a time
and a place for it (a drunken discussion in the Auteurists' Saloon,
perhaps), but the whole point of our group was to be serious discussion
in which one actually argues points.
I have previously posted about my strong dislike of "Vietnam, Vietnam,"
which I have seen. But even without Tag's information that Ford had
little to do with it, the fact is he isn't even the director of record.
And I agree with Tag that film hardly cancels out the others.
"The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," my second favorite Ford after "Seven
Women," contradicts almost everything that's been said about Ford being
right wing. It also could not be used to prove that Ford was left-wing
either. Nor is he apolitical. Could he be, say, a complex and nuanced
artist?
But even if he were certifiably right wing, that shouldn't detract from
the merit of his films. W. H. Auden perhaps said it best, in his eulogy
to the "right wing" William Butler Yeats, which mentions the "right
wing" writers Kipling and Paul Claudel:
Time that with this strange excuse
Pardoned Kiplintg and his views
And will pardon Paul
Pardons him for writing well.
(The quote may not be totally accurate -- I'm citing it from memory
while sitting in a hotel room in Brazil, about which I will post more soon).
Fred
2237
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:15am
Subject: Re: Hey! I happen to LIKE John Ford
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> SING OUT LOUISE!
David, that's the funniest thing I've read in 2300 posts here.
>
> --- Damien Bona wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Rick Segreda
> > wrote:
> > right wing = evil.
> >
> > Well, of course it does.
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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> http://shopping.yahoo.com
2238
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:46am
Subject: Coursodon, Ford, Riefenstahl
1. M. Coursodon, I didn't say you or Jean-Claude were mainstream -
just the opposite.
2. Having dipped my little toe into Ford during a month I spent
writing about his 30s films, I suspect he's more complex than
Hitchcock. For me, that's really saying something.
3. I'm writing about [H]O[Hum]lympia, and have to share this passage
from Riefenstahl's memoirs: "Glenn Morris won the decathalon,
achieving a new world record. It was already quite dark when the
three American champions stood on the podium and received their
medals. The dim light prevented any filming of the ceremony, and when
Glenn Morris came down the steps, he headed straight for me. I held
out my hand and congratulated him, but he grabbed me in his arms,
tore off my blouse, and kissed my breasts, right in the middle of the
stadium, in front of a thousand spectators. A lunatic, I thought. I
wrenched myself out of his grasp and dashed away. But I could not
forget the wild look in his eyes, and I never wanted to speak to him
again, never go anywhere near him again. But then I couldn't avoid
him because of the pole vault."
Of course she falls madly in love with him, but resists the pull and
is glad she did when she gets a letter from him after his return to
America. "I know nothing about graphology, but I felt uneasy when I
saw the strangely convoluted strokes." Later she shows it to a
professional, who refuses to interpret it; finally, after many pleas,
he tells her: 'This is a man who is unstable; he's dangerous,
uncontrolled, ruthless, inconsiderate, brutal, and even has a
sadistic streak...' I couldn't believe it, yet I couldn't get it out
of my mind, and after a prolonged struggle and on the basis of my
painful experiences, I made up my mind, difficult as it was, to end
this relationship."
With sincere advance apologies to the group member who was fond of
her (I'm becoming weirdly fond of her myself reading this thing), I
say it's time for Woody Allen to do that Leni Riefenstahl biopic we
all know he has in him. I can't really see anyone but Lisa Kudrow for
the lead.
2239
From:
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 3:11am
Subject: Human Factor, Silent Night
In a message dated 10/4/03 8:31:54 AM, filipefurtado@u... writes:
>I think the final shot is further proof that all the talk
>about Preminger being a cold filmmaker are nonsense. How many
>films has a final shot as devasting as this?
Maybe "Bonjour tristesse" or "Such Good Friends" - Preminger seems
particularly great at final shots which hit you like a bolt of lightning. They aren't
"shock" endings in the standard sense of the term, but they have the effect, as
someone commented, of condensing the emotions of the whole film into a single
image - much as the Saul Bass titles do at the top of the film. And in "The
Human Factor" the imagery of the titles and the final shot are one and the
same.
But Filipe's completely, completely right. Though they're dissimilar in many
ways, I think Preminger has gotten the same rap as Kubrick has through the
years: they're cold, sterile filmmakers whose films lack emotion. I find just
the opposite to be true.
> Silent Night, Deadly Night 3: Better Watch Out (Hellman, 89)
>
>He says that it's his best directed film.
Do you have a reference for this quote of Hellman's, Filipe? Bill? In my
experience, filmmakers often have uncannily good instincts about what their good
work and bad work is. For instance, Welles' assessment of his best films and
weakest films matches up with my own 100%. (For those who want to know: his
favorite was "Chimes at Midnight"; least favorite "The Stranger"; and he felt
the original "Ambersons" was far better than "Kane.")
>It has, I keep thinking this was the weirdest version of
>Little Red Riding Hood imaginable. I also think Hellman
>manage to make an oddly evocative romance and a strong
>exploration of the space separating his carachters. As
>curiosity, this was the first Hellman film that I saw, and I
>was turned into a fan from the dream sequence on.
Well put, Filipe. I think it's just about the finest, most succinct, most
effective dream sequence I've seen in an American movie in ages. I also felt
some of Hellman's humor come through in the dialogue and presentation of the
doctor. Yet I don't want to give the impression this is some wink-wink genre
parody: it couldn't be further from that. What we have here is a real Monte
Hellman film, one that explores the terrains of the mind and memory with the same
minimalist intensity as "Two Lane Blacktop."
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2240
From: jaketwilson
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 9:41am
Subject: Re: Silent Night
> Well put, Filipe. I think it's just about the finest, most
succinct, most
> effective dream sequence I've seen in an American movie in ages. I
also felt
> some of Hellman's humor come through in the dialogue and
presentation of the
> doctor. Yet I don't want to give the impression this is some wink-
wink genre
> parody: it couldn't be further from that. What we have here is a
real Monte
> Hellman film, one that explores the terrains of the mind and memory
with the same
> minimalist intensity as "Two Lane Blacktop."
I also saw this recently, and liked it, though it's far from my
favorite Hellman movie. Clearly he mocks both the doctor and the cop
because they personify efforts after order and reason, as well as the
conventional expectations we have of genre, all of which (as usual in
Hellman) crumble well before the end. In his peculiar way he's a
feminist filmmaker.
Adding to the Lynchian vibe, SILENT NIGHT not only features Laura
Harring, but also two regular cast members from TWIN PEAKS, Richard
Beymer (as the doctor)and Eric Da Re (as the brother). I haven't seen
IGUANA, but apparently it stars yet another Lynch favorite, Everett
McGill. Is there a pattern here?
Not sure I agree that TWO LANE BLACKTOP explores the "terrain of mind
and memory". Which character in that film remembers anything?
JTW
2241
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 10:05am
Subject: Re: Ford / personality
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"Having dipped my little toe into Ford during a month I spent writing
about his 30s films, I suspect he's more complex than Hitchcock. For
me, that's really saying something."
I know what you mean. I have always wanted to study Ford closer,
especially his westerns. It never ceases to impress me, that this
master, thru so few films, not only defined, but also to redefine the
western as genre. It borders Chikamatsuian fatalism, the way Western
and Ford and Wayne came together.
When you say complex, what do you mean thereby? Do you mean complexity
of characters and themes? Do you mean thematic compostition?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
"I think that knowing about the personal life/ beliefs/ personality of
an artist in any field illuminates our understanding of him or her
because these aspects inform what and how they create."
So do I. But in many cases real life personality of an artist wont
give you to first base.
To use Ford, I dont believe he would have been able to make films as
"The Informer" or "The Quiet Man" hadn't he been everything McLaglen
was. Neither would he have been able to make films as "The Searchers"
and "The Man who shot Liberty Wallance" unless he was everything John
Wayne was. Neither would he have made films like "Young Lincoln" and
"Mister Roberts" is he wasnt everything Henry Fonda was.
When I see Ford, I dont see a sadistic alcoholic right wing racist, I
see a humanist with the heart in the right place. Would such a person
make a film like "Sergeant Rutledge" or "Grapes of Wrath" or "Mister
Roberts"?
And what about Disney. A whining alcoholoc wife beating sadistic
racist extreme right wing (he openly attended nazi meetings). What
part of that side of his personality is seen in "Dumbo", "Fantasia" or
"Peter Pan"? The same with Kazan. Would did his HUAC ratting influence
his direction? Would he have directed "Splendor in the Grass" the same
way if there never had been a HUAC? I believe so.
How did the fact that Goethe was buddhist influence his writing?
While I agree, that knowing about an artists real life does give one
possible keys in interpreting and understanding his work, I dont agree
that one should dismiss a persons work because of personal beliefs.
Understanding and appreciating art is not a popularity contest, but
all this crap about Political Correctness has distorted several
writers views. If the personality of a film maker affects how we view
and approach his work, then the personality and background of the
writers who write about it also has to be analysed, because they do
not stand above others.
When David Ehrenstein writes "You're no fun at all, Henrik." I feel
sorry for bringing it up. It was never meant as to put a stop to fun.
I just felt uncomfortable reading the posts, because they were getting
more and more arbitrary and hateful. I know David's post was a
cheerful poking and I appreciated its humor. I just hope that others
dont saw my post the wrong way.
2242
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:11pm
Subject: sokurov, more festival do rio films
I've seen a good deal of Sokurov's films (features or not, several
essays/documentaries in fact) and found out he doesn't impress me at all.
The first film I saw by him was Moloch and I liked it, for its strangeness,
opacity of image. Coming to see more of his films, I find his work on image
to be more a question of fashionability than of deep thought. They're easy,
that's what I mean.
I've never seen Moloch again to find out if I still like it. Aside it, I
have some interest on The Day Of The Eclipse, despite all of its
miserabilism, and a film (forgot the title, sorry) in which the son has to
bury his father.
Sokurov's Madame Bovary is just a lenghty telefilm with nothing particularly
remarkable.
***
Back to Festival do Rio
gus van sant's elephant stands as a major achievement in cinematic art
naomi kawase's shara follows
also liked a lot olivier assayas's demonlover, however uneven it may be.
the cheapest movie of 2003 has a name and it spells Dogville. Turkey. Lame.
Low. Just like that. One of the worst ending credits of all time.
two major brazilian films:
rogerio sganzerla's o signo do caos (filipe posted here my review, I thank
him for the work on translation)
julio bressane's filme de amor
have seen yesterday marco bellocchio's new film buongiorno notte. The film
is certainly very strong but I haven't made my mind completely about it yet.
have seen again jia zhang-ke's unknown pleasures (saw for the first time in
Sao Paulo last year) and it's really great. makes me think of yu lik-wai as
the nestor almendros of the DVcam
didn't like Lou Ye's Purple Butterfly, sheer academic work. Didn't have
patience to follow the first piece of Peter Greenaway's trilogy on his
Borgean character Tulse Luper. A bore.
ruy
2243
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:24pm
Subject: Jerry Lewis
Jerry-philes,
The first part of a two-part meditation on the films and persona of
Jerry Lewis, written by a close friend, Brent Kite, has just appeared
in the October issue of the California-based magazine 'The
Believer'. It is in print only, not online, although the magazine's
website is http://www.believermag.com/. The magazine is a
McSweeney's publication - I trust most of you are familiar with
McSweeney's.
Having read both halves (the second, I'm guessing, will appear in the
November issue), I can say this: it is a fine piece of work. I have
not read as much Jerry Lewis criticism as I would like, but I cannot
imagine a superior piece of writing, as far as wit, insight,
generosity, originality, and love are concerned. Even the footnotes
and asides, inspired less (so sez Mr. Kite) by David Foster Wallace
than Thomas De Quincey and Flann O'Brien, are great.
(Unfortunately, the issue costs eight dollars. Sympathetic to the
plight of the independent magazine as I am, I would not have bought
the issue unless the writer of the piece was a friend. So there's
your dilemma. Perhaps the piece will appear online someday; I can't
imagine 'The Believer' is archived at the public library.)
-Jaime
2244
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:25pm
Subject: Re: sokurov, more festival do rio films
I don't know if I would characterize Sokurov, or his imagery, as
easy, but he is/they are certainly stimulating, at least to me.
-Jaime
2245
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ford / personality
"And what about Disney. A whining alcoholoc wife
beating sadistic
racist extreme right wing (he openly attended nazi
meetings). What
part of that side of his personality is seen in
"Dumbo", "Fantasia" or
"Peter Pan"? "
I belive Jonathan Rosenbaum would have a lot to say
about that.
"The same with Kazan. Would did his HUAC ratting
influence
his direction?"
Lordyes! "On the Waterfront" is ENTIRELY about his
HUAC testimony. Read "Stand Up! Stand Up!" by Lindsay
Anderson.
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
2246
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: sokurov, more festival do rio films
I was thinking on his imagery. I don't think of him as "easy", his account
on History and the role of art on Russian Ark, even though I don't like it,
could count as everything (reactionary, tzarist) but easy.
ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jaime N. Christley"
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: sokurov, more festival do rio films
> I don't know if I would characterize Sokurov, or his imagery, as
> easy, but he is/they are certainly stimulating, at least to me.
>
> -Jaime
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
2247
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 2:08pm
Subject: Dogville
THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS AND SHOULD NOT BE READ BY ANYONE SEEKING
TO REMAIN UNAWARE OF THE PLOT OF DOGVILLE:
Although I'm not totally won over by all of Lars von Trier's films, I
found DOGVILLE to be a very potent and troubling piece of work, a
major work of art.
I've been doing a little research into the origins of the story and
the design of the film. As cited by von Trier, the plot is taken
from the song "Pirate Jenny" from Brecht and Weill's THREEPENNY
OPERA, and even a brief glance at the lyrics to "Pirate Jenny" will
reveal that this is so. My hasty conclusion is "Pirate Jenny" is the
primary influence on the DOGVILLE narrative, although perhaps it is
not the only one.
What I was wondering, then, is this: what were the origins of the
film's design? The answer seems to be less conclusive. Some say OUR
TOWN, some name the American Film Theatre projects of the 1970s
(featuring such works as Olivier's THREE SISTERS and Frankenheimer's
ICEMAN COMETH), and von Trier mentions a televised version of
NICHOLAS NICKELBY put on by the Royal Shakespeare company during the
1970s. The fact that the movie THE ICEMAN COMETH, while taking place
entirely indoors, uses a set that can't really be characterized
as "minimalist" in the way that the outlines-for-buildings design of
DOGVILLE can leads me to doubt the DOGVILLE's affinity with the
American Film Theatre. And however NICKELBY looked, I certainly
can't guess, nor can I suppose the differences between NICKELBY's
design and DOGVILLE's, as thought up by von Trier or his
collaborators. Does anyone have any ideas, further evidence, etc.?
-Jaime
2248
From: iangjohnston
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Dogville
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS AND SHOULD NOT BE READ BY ANYONE
SEEKING
> TO REMAIN UNAWARE OF THE PLOT OF DOGVILLE:
>
> Although I'm not totally won over by all of Lars von Trier's
films, I
> found DOGVILLE to be a very potent and troubling piece of work, a
> major work of art.
>
> I've been doing a little research into the origins of the story
and
> the design of the film. As cited by von Trier, the plot is taken
> from the song "Pirate Jenny" from Brecht and Weill's THREEPENNY
> OPERA, and even a brief glance at the lyrics to "Pirate Jenny"
will
> reveal that this is so. My hasty conclusion is "Pirate Jenny" is
the
> primary influence on the DOGVILLE narrative, although perhaps it
is
> not the only one.
>
> What I was wondering, then, is this: what were the origins of the
> film's design? The answer seems to be less conclusive. Some say
OUR
> TOWN, some name the American Film Theatre projects of the 1970s
> (featuring such works as Olivier's THREE SISTERS and
Frankenheimer's
> ICEMAN COMETH), and von Trier mentions a televised version of
> NICHOLAS NICKELBY put on by the Royal Shakespeare company during
the
> 1970s. The fact that the movie THE ICEMAN COMETH, while taking
place
> entirely indoors, uses a set that can't really be characterized
> as "minimalist" in the way that the outlines-for-buildings design
of
> DOGVILLE can leads me to doubt the DOGVILLE's affinity with the
> American Film Theatre. And however NICKELBY looked, I certainly
> can't guess, nor can I suppose the differences between NICKELBY's
> design and DOGVILLE's, as thought up by von Trier or his
> collaborators. Does anyone have any ideas, further evidence, etc.?
>
> -Jaime
I haven't seen DOGVILLE but I do have vague memories of the TV
broadcast of the RSC's NICHOLAS NICKLEBY in the early 80s (not the
1970s, actually). As I recall the whole thing was shot on a near-
empty theatre stage with minimal props. I don't remember any
outlines-for-buildings design but this was 20 years ago; anyone seen
it more recently?
Ian Johnston
2250
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:02pm
Subject: Ford, David
Henrik,
I wouldn't limit the kind of complexity that I'm talking about to one
layer in the films - although, for example, I think Ford is quite
complex politically. Maybe a better word would be richness. Although
I haven't studied him the way I study Hitchcock, I suspect that one
can continually return to him the way one does with Hitchcock. I'm
guest editor today at the MacGuffin website, and I'm going to be
talking about how learning one tiny new detail (about the second
ending of Suspicion, in this case) can open a whole world of
reflection.
I'm not sure how this would work with Ford, but I remember an
incident with LA cinephile supreme Blake Lucas in a noisy hamburger
joint: I asked a factual question unrelated to Ford, and Blake fell
into a reflective trance. When I broke in I learned that he had
totally misheard my question, thinking I had asked: "Should Ransom
Stoddard have left Shinbone?" Not only was he prepared to think, with
obvious pleasure, about this question I hadn't asked; he also saw
nothing strange in my "asking" it out of the blue.
Maybe I'll be the same way when I get around to Ford, having up to
now followed the policy of another friend, Alan Holleb, who once
said: "I'm saving Ford for my old age - like opera."
Re: David - I always picture David (who doesn't smoke) sitting at a
cafe table in Paris with a Gaulloise in one hand and a glass of vin
blanc in front of him. All outrageous remarks have to be heard in
that context. But I can't imagine him gratuitously insulting a member
of the group - there's a big difference.
2251
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:11pm
Subject: Re: Ford / personality
>
> "The same with Kazan. Would did his HUAC ratting
> influence
> his direction?"
>
> Lordyes! "On the Waterfront" is ENTIRELY about his
> HUAC testimony. Read "Stand Up! Stand Up!" by Lindsay
> Anderson.
>
> This is patently unfair, even absurd. Instead of (or in addition
to) reading Lindsay Anderson, just watch the movie. Although it
obviously deals, in a metaphorical, indirect and oblique manner, with
the HUAC disgrace, the situation depicted in the film is so different
from what happened with/to Kazan in real life that it is hard to
imagine that he might have wanted, or expected, to "justify" himself
through it. I hate to quote myself but it is tedious to have have to
rehash the same arguments over and over again: "Critics usually take
this intention [ie., K's intention to justify himself) for granted,
then proceed to discuss the film in terms of what Kazan is allegedly
implying about himself, rather than in terms of what actually appears
on the screen." The waterfront mob "stands" for the Communist Party,
the crime commission for HUAC and Terry Malloy for Kazan
himself. "Kazan is then, understandably, taken to task for loading
the dice: the two situations are different, Terry's informing is, to
a certain extent, justifiable; Kazan is not. At the same time,
however, Terry's action is criticized not so much in reference to the
story's context as in reference to Kazan's case. Since Terry 'stands'
for kazan, his behavior deserves the same disapproval. Commentators
seem unable to take the film at face value.... The film's point --
that one owes no loyalty to racketeers and killers, that loyalty, in
other words, has to be deserved by those who expect it and indeed a
relative matter -- is not deemed worthy of consideration."
Back in the early sixties I was once taken to task myself by a French
critic (a Communist) for asking the simple question: what right do
you have to brand a man as a despicable informer when you have never
found yourself in a position even remotely resembling his, and don't
know how you, with all your principles, would behave? A few years
later, by the way, the same critic branded Ford as a rabid right-
winger, militarist bigot etc...
Kazan is dead. let him rest in peace rather than tearing him to
pieces yet again.
JPC
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
2252
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:14pm
Subject: Re: Ford, David
Hah!
I was interviewed by a France 2 television unit
yesterday in Brentwood. hey were waiting for somelocal
hack to talk to about Arnold. I introduced myself and
gave them several solid videobytes in French.
And I'll take that last brioche if you don't want it!
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Henrik,
>
> I wouldn't limit the kind of complexity that I'm
> talking about to one
> layer in the films - although, for example, I think
> Ford is quite
> complex politically. Maybe a better word would be
> richness. Although
> I haven't studied him the way I study Hitchcock, I
> suspect that one
> can continually return to him the way one does with
> Hitchcock. I'm
> guest editor today at the MacGuffin website, and I'm
> going to be
> talking about how learning one tiny new detail
> (about the second
> ending of Suspicion, in this case) can open a whole
> world of
> reflection.
>
> I'm not sure how this would work with Ford, but I
> remember an
> incident with LA cinephile supreme Blake Lucas in a
> noisy hamburger
> joint: I asked a factual question unrelated to Ford,
> and Blake fell
> into a reflective trance. When I broke in I learned
> that he had
> totally misheard my question, thinking I had asked:
> "Should Ransom
> Stoddard have left Shinbone?" Not only was he
> prepared to think, with
> obvious pleasure, about this question I hadn't
> asked; he also saw
> nothing strange in my "asking" it out of the blue.
>
> Maybe I'll be the same way when I get around to
> Ford, having up to
> now followed the policy of another friend, Alan
> Holleb, who once
> said: "I'm saving Ford for my old age - like opera."
>
> Re: David - I always picture David (who doesn't
> smoke) sitting at a
> cafe table in Paris with a Gaulloise in one hand and
> a glass of vin
> blanc in front of him. All outrageous remarks have
> to be heard in
> that context. But I can't imagine him gratuitously
> insulting a member
> of the group - there's a big difference.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
2253
From:
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Silent Night
In a message dated 10/5/03 6:02:59 AM, upworld1@h... writes:
>Not sure I agree that TWO LANE BLACKTOP explores the "terrain of mind
>and memory". Which character in that film remembers anything?
Oops... didn't mean to imply this! I meant that "Better Watch Out" had the
same minimalist intensity as "Blacktop," not that they explore the same things.
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2254
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ford / personality
"Commentators
seem unable to take the film at face value.... "
The political context from which it proceeds is a
major aspect of that "face value" -- not just for
Kazan but Schulberg as well.
Schulberg (who is still with us) is presently
finishing the second volume of his autobiography.
"let him rest in peace rather than tearing him to
> pieces yet again."
There's no "yet again" about it. He will ALWAYS be in
pieces.
BTW, M. Coursodon, do you recall Marguerite Duras'
interview with Kazan for "Cahiers" which was included
in the hardcover edition of "Les Yeux Verts"? I'd love
to hear your take on it.
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> >
> > "The same with Kazan. Would did his HUAC ratting
> > influence
> > his direction?"
> >
> > Lordyes! "On the Waterfront" is ENTIRELY about his
> > HUAC testimony. Read "Stand Up! Stand Up!" by
> Lindsay
> > Anderson.
> >
> > This is patently unfair, even absurd. Instead of
> (or in addition
> to) reading Lindsay Anderson, just watch the movie.
> Although it
> obviously deals, in a metaphorical, indirect and
> oblique manner, with
> the HUAC disgrace, the situation depicted in the
> film is so different
> from what happened with/to Kazan in real life that
> it is hard to
> imagine that he might have wanted, or expected, to
> "justify" himself
> through it. I hate to quote myself but it is tedious
> to have have to
> rehash the same arguments over and over again:
> "Critics usually take
> this intention [ie., K's intention to justify
> himself) for granted,
> then proceed to discuss the film in terms of what
> Kazan is allegedly
> implying about himself, rather than in terms of what
> actually appears
> on the screen." The waterfront mob "stands" for the
> Communist Party,
> the crime commission for HUAC and Terry Malloy for
> Kazan
> himself. "Kazan is then, understandably, taken to
> task for loading
> the dice: the two situations are different, Terry's
> informing is, to
> a certain extent, justifiable; Kazan is not. At the
> same time,
> however, Terry's action is criticized not so much in
> reference to the
> story's context as in reference to Kazan's case.
> Since Terry 'stands'
> for kazan, his behavior deserves the same
> disapproval. Commentators
> seem unable to take the film at face value.... The
> film's point --
> that one owes no loyalty to racketeers and killers,
> that loyalty, in
> other words, has to be deserved by those who expect
> it and indeed a
> relative matter -- is not deemed worthy of
> consideration."
>
> Back in the early sixties I was once taken to task
> myself by a French
> critic (a Communist) for asking the simple question:
> what right do
> you have to brand a man as a despicable informer
> when you have never
> found yourself in a position even remotely
> resembling his, and don't
> know how you, with all your principles, would
> behave? A few years
> later, by the way, the same critic branded Ford as a
> rabid right-
> winger, militarist bigot etc...
>
> Kazan is dead. let him rest in peace rather than
> tearing him to
> pieces yet again.
>
> JPC
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
> search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________
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2255
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:41pm
Subject: Arthur Omar
The festival of short films I've been attending in Belo Horizonte,
Brazil, is just about over. I'll report in a few days a bit more on how
the Brakhage programs I presented went (they went well). There was also
a program of short films by Arthur Omar, a photographer and filmmaker.
They were very curious works. They seemed ot mix influences from Dziga
Vertov, Un Chien Andalou type surrealism, and Brazilian influences I
could not quite identify. On one viewing I wasn't sure how much I liked
them, especially since for some the printed texts on screen were only in
Portuguese -- for others, there were French subtitles, which I could get
most of. I certainly had not seen anything quite like them before, and
it could be that they're really good. So the purpose of this post is to
recommend them as at least very interesting to anyone who might have a
chance to see them, and to ask for reactions, defenses or attacks from
anyone who has seen them.
Fred
2256
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Dogville
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
..> wrote:
> I've been doing a little research into the origins of the story and
> the design of the film. As cited by von Trier, the plot is taken
> from the song "Pirate Jenny" from Brecht and Weill's THREEPENNY
> OPERA, and even a brief glance at the lyrics to "Pirate Jenny" will
> reveal that this is so. My hasty conclusion is "Pirate Jenny" is
the
> primary influence on the DOGVILLE narrative, although perhaps it is
> not the only one.
I have tried to get Lars to comment on this on two occassions, but I
never got further than his secretary. The influence of "Piraten Jenny"
is obvious, so is the influence of Brecht. I am fairly certain that
there are more influences. Lars reacts on impulses and as he changed
the look of "Dancer in the Dark" after seeing an episode of
"Homicide", so will there be something else for "Dogville".
I am confident that the answers to all questions will be answered in a
little month, when the DVD is released.
To those not aware of it yet, the 19th November will Nordisk Film
release a 2 Disc SE of "Dogville" (Region 2). "Dogville" will opend in
North American in March / April 2004, so this is a winner :)
Disc 1
- Dogville in 2,35:1 (16x9) / 5,1 surround
It will not be a 1080 HD format, but just normal DVD resolution.
- Selected audio commentary by Lars von Trier and Anthony Dod Mantle.
They chose only to comment specific scenes, as Lars felt that full 3
hours of commentary would become to streched and to boring. Commentary
will be in english. Commentary will not be subtitled.
- Subtitles: Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish
Disc 2
- Dogville Confessions by Sami Saif (52 minuts)
- Trier, Kidman and Cannes (Danish Doc)
- Cofession Booth Confessions (17 minuts)
- Interviews with Kidman (Australian and Danish)
- Interview with Stellan Skarsgård (Swedish)
- Interview with Anders Refn (Danish)
- Interview with Vibeke Windeløv (Danish)
- Interview with Lars von Trier (20/5 and 23/5 in Cannes)
- Press interview at Cannes (Cast and von Trier)
- Trailers
- Experimental Footage (concept design and test with danish actors
Sidsel Knudsen and Nikolaj Kaas with english commentary by Trier and
Mantle)
- Conceptual Poster design (8 posters to illustrate how the different
ideas about the poster design were; Accompanied by english text
explaining each poster)
- A few more featurettes and interviews I didnt note.
- Extra Material will not be subtitled.
Price will be Dkr 199,00 ($30).
2257
From: jerome_gerber
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:33pm
Subject: Re: Dogville
While 'Pirate Jenny' might provide some skeletal structure to
provides the coming and final going of the female protaganist in
DOGVILLE, I think for "the meat" one needs to uncover the
origins of the town's behavior, hypocricy and betrayal toward
Grace to fully understand the origins of Von Trier's thinking in this
great film. It not unlike the betrayal that Selma receives in
DANCER IN THE DARK and not unlike the betrayals in the
Passion itself.
Jerry
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
> ..> wrote:
>
> > I've been doing a little research into the origins of the story
and
> > the design of the film. As cited by von Trier, the plot is taken
> > from the song "Pirate Jenny" from Brecht and Weill's
THREEPENNY
> > OPERA, and even a brief glance at the lyrics to "Pirate Jenny"
will
> > reveal that this is so. My hasty conclusion is "Pirate Jenny" is
> the
> > primary influence on the DOGVILLE narrative, although
perhaps it is
> > not the only one.
>
> I have tried to get Lars to comment on this on two occassions,
but I
> never got further than his secretary. The influence of "Piraten
Jenny"
> is obvious, so is the influence of Brecht. I am fairly certain that
> there are more influences. Lars reacts on impulses and as he
changed
> the look of "Dancer in the Dark" after seeing an episode of
> "Homicide", so will there be something else for "Dogville".
>
> I am confident that the answers to all questions will be
answered in a
> little month, when the DVD is released.
>
> To those not aware of it yet, the 19th November will Nordisk
Film
> release a 2 Disc SE of "Dogville" (Region 2). "Dogville" will
opend in
> North American in March / April 2004, so this is a winner :)
>
> Disc 1
> - Dogville in 2,35:1 (16x9) / 5,1 surround
> It will not be a 1080 HD format, but just normal DVD resolution.
> - Selected audio commentary by Lars von Trier and Anthony
Dod Mantle.
> They chose only to comment specific scenes, as Lars felt that
full 3
> hours of commentary would become to streched and to boring.
Commentary
> will be in english. Commentary will not be subtitled.
> - Subtitles: Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish
>
> Disc 2
> - Dogville Confessions by Sami Saif (52 minuts)
> - Trier, Kidman and Cannes (Danish Doc)
> - Cofession Booth Confessions (17 minuts)
> - Interviews with Kidman (Australian and Danish)
> - Interview with Stellan Skarsgård (Swedish)
> - Interview with Anders Refn (Danish)
> - Interview with Vibeke Windeløv (Danish)
> - Interview with Lars von Trier (20/5 and 23/5 in Cannes)
> - Press interview at Cannes (Cast and von Trier)
> - Trailers
> - Experimental Footage (concept design and test with danish
actors
> Sidsel Knudsen and Nikolaj Kaas with english commentary by
Trier and
> Mantle)
> - Conceptual Poster design (8 posters to illustrate how the
different
> ideas about the poster design were; Accompanied by english
text
> explaining each poster)
> - A few more featurettes and interviews I didnt note.
> - Extra Material will not be subtitled.
>
> Price will be Dkr 199,00 ($30).
2258
From: rpporton55
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:33pm
Subject: Re: Re Cineaste
Any allusions to McTiernan were purely unintentional. What did you think of Belton's
Hitchock piece?
Richard
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Very cool and also very gratifying. We have group member (and Cineaste
> editor) Richard Porton to thank for this honor; several months ago, Richard asked
> if Fred and I minded the group being named in an upcoming editorial. Of
> course, the answer was a hearty "no"!
>
> P.S. - Vinny, I actually think McTiernan has a pretty strong and resilient
> rep among auteurists, so let's just all pretend Richard was referencing "Die
> Hard." :)
>
> Peter
>
> http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2259
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:48pm
Subject: Kazan, De Palma, Dogville (which I haven't seen)
The Visitors is also about someone who testified against his friends -
a situation much like the one De Palma used in Casualties of War.
(The Visitors is also about interrogation by torture.)
As a person, by the way, I rate Kazan morally above De Palma. And I
do think these things matter to someone's work. I believe that Femme
Fatale is De Palma's On the Waterfront, but I won't say why.
Just a wild guess, offered for confirmation or denial by those who've
seen it, but since Zentropa is a remake of Verboten!, could a bit of
The Naked Kiss have snuck into Dogville?
2260
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Ford / personality
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> But in many cases real life personality of an artist wont
> give you to first base.
Oh, I agree that knowledge about his or her real life is not a magic
bullet for understanding an artist's work, but I think it can only
enhance our appreciation since, obviously, art is not created in a
vacuum.
> When I see Ford, I dont see a sadistic alcoholic right wing racist,
I > see a humanist with the heart in the right place. Would such a
person make a film like "Sergeant Rutledge" or "Grapes of Wrath"
or "Mister Roberts"?
I've never considered Ford a racist, and his films are as rich and
multi-faceted and moving and filled with an understanding of the
human psyche as deep as those of any director. I certainly agree
with Bill about the complexity of Ford's movies. So much is
expressed through such seeming minutia as a simple glance or a shift
in an actor's eyes -- and each re-viewing offers up new
discoveries.
>
> And what about Disney. A whining alcoholoc wife beating sadistic
> racist extreme right wing (he openly attended nazi meetings). What
> part of that side of his personality is seen in "Dumbo", "Fantasia"
or > "Peter Pan"?
Richard Schickel maintains that the industrious pig who built his
house of brick in The Three Little Pigs was modeled on Herbert
Hoover. Disney was strongly anti-union and one could see The
Sorceror's Apprentice segment of Fantasia as a metaphor for what
happens when the Worker (Mickey Mouse) tries to become as powerful as
Management -- all hell breaks loose. I also once read somewhere an
interpretation of Dumbo as being about the Republican Party (an
elephant is the Republican symbol) and how, though the Republican
Party in the early 40s might have fallen on hard times, Disney was
saying that ike Dumbo it would persevere and eventually triumph.
>The same with Kazan. Would did his HUAC ratting influence
> his direction?
In East of Eden, one can liken James Dean's disillusionment with his
father to Kazan's disenchantment with the Communist Party when he was
young. And Splendor In The Grass is an exhortation for people to be
allowed to live their lives as they want without conforming to
societal expectations, just as Kazan apparently thought he should
not have been castigated for doing behaving in a manner most of his
friends and colleagues disapproved of. Clearly, these are not the
only interpretations of these films, but at the very least, they do
provide an interesting subtext.
By the way, speaking of Walt Disney, I love this quote I recently
came across: "Mr. Disney created more communists [than any other
studio] with his substandard wage scales and the way he handled his
people," claimed the leader of the Conference of Studio Unions, Herb
Sorrell.
2261
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 8:10pm
Subject: What Ford watched for
Damien,
I think this is in print, but it's worth repeating: Thom Andersen
asked Ford what he watched when he was running rushes. Ford said, "I
look at the eyes."
2262
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 8:12pm
Subject: "I've never considered Ford a racist"
I think it was Damian Bona who made this statement,
but it could have been anyne of late. The question is
what WOULD be considered racism?
Are we all so blinkered by "Art" that we can't see
what's right in front of our faces? Admittedly Ford is
quite complex. The man who made "Judge Priest" and
"The Sun Shines Bright" is different from the man who
made "Sergeant Rutledge" and "Cheyenne Autumn."
But then there's "The Searchers."
And then there's "Two Rode Together."
And then there's "Seven Women."
Obvioulsy Ford is not Griffith. But there's a
two-steps-forward-one-step back to much of his career
that shouldn't be glossed over.
__________________________________
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2263
From:
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Kazan, De Palma, Dogville (which I haven't seen)
In a message dated 10/5/03 2:49:40 PM, hotlove666@y... writes:
> I believe that Femme
> Fatale is De Palma's On the Waterfront, but I won't say why.
>
I really wish you would. Did you witness something personal first-hand or do
you just not want to open the De Palma can of worms? I ask only because I
found the film's interplay between the personal and the impersonal exhilarating.
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2264
From:
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Re Cineaste
In a message dated 10/5/03 2:35:29 PM, rpporton55@y... writes:
>What did you think of Belton's
>Hitchock piece?
I thought it was a superb piece. My only regret is that it went to press
before Belton had the chance to include Pat McGilligan's new (superb) Hitchcock
biography in his essay.
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2265
From: jaketwilson
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 3:21am
Subject: Re: Kazan, De Palma, Dogville (which I haven't seen)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/5/03 2:49:40 PM, hotlove666@y... writes:
>
>
> > I believe that Femme
> > Fatale is De Palma's On the Waterfront, but I won't say why.
> >
>
> I really wish you would.
I'm interested too. I'm not encouraging you to risk a libel suit, but
having gone this far, are there any publicly available facts/sources
which would support your estimate of De Palma's moral character?
JTW
2266
From:
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2003 11:52pm
Subject: Re: Preminger
In a message dated 10/4/2003 21:35:20 Eastern Daylight Time,
cellar47@y... writes:
> My boyfriend Bill Reed was living in John Phillip
> Law's basement (don't ask!) during the shooting of
> "Skidoo." He writes all about it in his memoir "Early
> Plastic," which is available on-line.
Thanks for the heads-up! I can only imagine the stories to be told about
this production. Probably the best critical piece I've read on "Skidoo" was the
one by John Dorr in the defunct On Film magazine. (Of course, I eagerly await
what Chris Fujiwara has to say on it in his upcoming critical biography of
Preminger; I imagine he's saving his insights for the book rather than spoiling
them here!)
Personally speaking, and only parenthetically, "Skidoo" is easier for me to
deal with than, say, "Hurry Sundown" or "Junie Moon" because it's so blatantly
off-the-wall. Whereas "Junie Moon" has an ultimately stranger synthesis
between what I take to be a deeply felt narrative (I truly believe Preminger
responded to these characters in a very meaningful way, as evidenced by his comments
in the Bogdanovich interview) and - let's make no bones about it -
experimental film technique. Jonathan Rosenbaum observed quite astutely in his piece on
Preminger for Roud's critical dictionary that a scene like the Liza Minnelli
flashback which alternates Bach and rock music on the soundtrack plays as
though some avant-garde directors got ahold of, and reassembled, materials from a
Hollywood movie. And yet I think the film is ultimately touching, sincere,
and meant to be so.
The synthesis tapers off in "Such Good Friends," which has some amazing and
unusual fantasy sequences but is ultimately more conventional, and seems to me
entirely absent from "Rosebud" and "The Human Factor."
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2267
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:01am
Subject: Re: Kazan, De Palma, Dogville (which I haven't seen)
I actually don't know too much about De Palma's personal life at all, let
alone inside information, but I think that "Femme Fatale" can still usefully be
thought of in terms of a confessional. What is the film but a rigorous
self-examination of a character who committed a series of bad deeds, glimpsed the
consequences, and thus became determined to do everything possible to avoid the
consequences? Is De Palma Laure? Is Laure De Palma? I haven't a clue, but it
resulted in one amazing film.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2268
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:14am
Subject: Re: panic, pinky, dovzhenko, late but not very late ford
In a message dated 10/4/2003 22:49:49 Eastern Daylight Time,
chris_fujiwara@y... writes:
> Ford, Welles, Dovzhenko, Fuller, Siegel are all filmmakers who
> challenge banal left/right categorization. So is Godard (explicitly,
> in Made in USA).
>
Welles is a particularly fascinating one for me. His classic theme of
characters longing for lost paradises can be read in conservative terms; the whole
form and plot of "Ambersons" is predicated on a deeply felt and meticulously
expressed longing for the times gone by and a resistance to what most would call
"progress." But for me this nostalgia breaks free of political dimensions
because it is so human: it is very similar to Visconti's sadness at the end of
the aristocracy in "The Leopard." He might even agree that it's good that it
ended (though I'm not sure Welles would agree that the car was a good
invention!), but that doesn't change the validity of the film's sentiments. And even
Welles conceded that the good old times might never have existed - but that
it's a tribute to human beings that we can conceive of such times.
Of course, Welles' canon also provides ample support for his credentials as a
liberal thinker - "It's All True" is evidence enough, but also look at his
love for the bohemian values embodied by Falstaff (whom he compared to the
hippies in the 1960s) in "Chimes at Midnight." I also think there's a strong case
that Welles had become, towards the end of his life, a real feminist in a
female-dominated late work like "The Dreamers." Of course, one sees the
beginnings of this in the final shot of "Touch of Evil"... it's not at all about Quinlan
anymore, it's all about Tanya (whose name must be an homage to Karen/Tanya
Blixen!)
I think the lesson is that the great filmmakers are usually complex and even
contradictory in every way, including politically.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2269
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:28am
Subject: Middle Preminger
I can see Fred cringing at this post, but I can't resist mentioning in light
of recent posts that "Bonjour tristesse" is finally getting its long overdue
DVD release on December 16. The disc doesn't have the special features of this
spring's release of "The Cardinal," but I know that the 2.35:1 anamorphic
transfer will be like Christmas to those who endured the horrendous pan-and-scan
videotape of this masterpiece.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2270
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 4:35am
Subject: Bunny Lake is Missing
"'Bonjour Tristesse' is finally getting its long overdue
DVD release on December 16"
But when oh when will my own personal favorite, "Bunny Lake is Missing" be available in any format? Maybe us Preminger-philes ought to start a petition.
---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2271
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 0:39am
Subject: Re: Bunny Lake is Missing
In a message dated 10/6/2003 0:37:10 Eastern Daylight Time,
auteurwannabe2000@y... writes:
> But when oh when will my own personal favorite, "Bunny Lake is Missing" be
> available in any format? Maybe us Preminger-philes ought to start a petition.
I love "Bunny Lake" - of those two B&W 'Scope masterpiece he released in 1965
(the other being "In Harm's Way"), I might just give a mild edge to "Bunny."
I heard, unofficially, about a year ago that a DVD release was finally
forthcoming, but nothing's come of it as yet. In fact, every single Preminger film
after "Bunny Lake" is unavailable on DVD and in their proper aspect ratios. A
huge loss.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2272
From: filipefurtado
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 5:01am
Subject: Re: Re: Silent Night
>
> Not sure I agree that TWO LANE BLACKTOP explores the "terrai
n of mind
> and memory". Which character in that film remembers anything
>
I do think Two Lane Blacktop has something to do with memory,
look how the new identities that Oates creates relates do
american history.
Filipe
> JTW
>
>
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2273
From: filipefurtado
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 5:21am
Subject: Re: Human Factor, Silent Night
> But Filipe's completely, completely right. Though they're d
issimilar in many
> ways, I think Preminger has gotten the same rap as Kubrick h
as through the
> years: they're cold, sterile filmmakers whose films lack emo
tion. I find just
> the opposite to be true.
That has probably some to do with a few of Preminger's
methods to get his emotional effects. Someone has mention
that the Human Factor's last scene is set on a too obvious
stage and that's true, but that makes the couple separation
even more clear, they are in two separate worlds and that's
make their tragedy more clear. The same can be said to many
Preminger films, look at Tom Tryon's performance in The
Cardinal, I think he is very good an he helps a lot to set
the film tone, but it's hard to defend him according to the
rules of traditional good acting. Then Preminger get the fame
of being a cold filmmaker, since his lead isn't very likable.
>
> > Silent Night, Deadly Night 3: Better Watch Out (Hellman, 8
9)
> >
> >He says that it's his best directed film.
>
> Do you have a reference for this quote of Hellman's, Filipe?
It's in a Web interview. I'm not very sure which one, but I
think it's the one to Film Threat.
Filipe
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2274
From: filipefurtado
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 4:48am
Subject: Re: panic, pinky, dovzhenko, late but not very late ford
>
> Welles is a particularly fascinating one for me.
A friend once described Welles to me as the most progresive
19th century man ever.
Filipe
---
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2275
From: George Robinson
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 10:02am
Subject: Anyone know where I can find Trafic?
Does anyone know if there is a US distributor for Trafic? (the magazine, not
the Tati film)
Has anyone seen it in a magazine store/bookstore in the US?
George Robinson
One night, as he walked past the home of a shoemaker, Rabbi Salanter noticed
that despite the late hour, the man was still working by the light of a
dying candle. "Why are you still working," he asked. "It is very late and
soon that candle will go out." The shoemaker replied, "As long as the candle
is still burning, it is still possible to accomplish and to mend." Salanter
spent that entire night excitedly pacing his room and repeating to himself:
"As long as the candle is still burning, it is still possible to accomplish
and to mend."
2276
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 10:50am
Subject: Re: Ford / personality
> Management -- all hell breaks loose. I also once read somewhere an
> interpretation of Dumbo as being about the Republican Party (an
> elephant is the Republican symbol) and how, though the Republican
> Party in the early 40s might have fallen on hard times, Disney was
> saying that ike Dumbo it would persevere and eventually triumph.
In that case, his attitude towards democrats (with their donkey) is
communicated pretty strongly in PINOCCHIO.
Jaime
2277
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:21am
Subject: Ford
I agree with Dan Sallitt's comments in a_film_by post 133 regarding
the ongoing struggle with Ford, and more broadly, the difficulty of
resolving the potentially (or very definitely) troubling aspects of
an artist's life and personality with his work; especially if he/she
is a great artist. You can find that post by entering 133 into the
MSG # box, but I'll reprint the relevant quote:
"I've always thought of Ford as a river that carries a lot of flotsam
and jetsam. Sometimes you feel the full force of the river's majesty,
but the flotsam and jetsam are still there. And under the wrong
circumstances, all you get is the debris."
Also, and this echoes some of the sentiments expressed by other board
contributors, I feel that the quest to distill an artist to his or
her "essence" is a misguided quest, when that undertaking requires
one to eliminate things that may seem contradictory, undesirable, or
just plain too difficult to grasp. A person's life can, and is,
viewed through many lenses - sometimes, the good stuff cannot excuse
the bad, and sometimes the bad stuff cannot extinguish the good.
-Jaime
2278
From: Elizabeth NOLAN
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 2:36pm
Subject: Agee's positive / negative review of single movie
> "Damien Bona" wrote:
>
> "I think that knowing about the personal life/ beliefs/ personality of
> an artist in any field illuminates our understanding of him or her
> because these aspects inform what and how they create."
Interesting, the life, beliefs, and personality of the viewer, reviewer,
and critic influence the interpretation of the film; certainly the
critic should be most objective but how hard is it to separate one
personal likes from objective criticism? I remember reading that James
Agree was criticized for giving a relatively positive review of a
particular movie to one magazine and a negative review of the same movie
to another. Did he have different readers in mind? I don't remember
the movie or magazines, does anyone else?
2279
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Bunny Lake is Missing
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/6/2003 0:37:10 Eastern Daylight Time,
> auteurwannabe2000@y... writes:
>
> > But when oh when will my own personal favorite, "Bunny Lake is
Missing" be
> > available in any format? Maybe us Preminger-philes ought to start
a petition.
>
> I love "Bunny Lake" - of those two B&W 'Scope masterpiece he
released in 1965
> (the other being "In Harm's Way"), I might just give a mild edge
to "Bunny."
> I heard, unofficially, about a year ago that a DVD release was
finally
> forthcoming, but nothing's come of it as yet. In fact, every
single Preminger film
> after "Bunny Lake" is unavailable on DVD and in their proper aspect
ratios. A
> huge loss.
>
> Peter
>
>
I love "Bunny Lake" but haven't seen it in at least 25 years!
Saw it last at MOMA, must have been in the very early '80s, since I
discuss it at length in "American Directors". I remember little of
the film except for a feeling of intense exhilaration. A triumph of
pure mise en scene over dubious material. I wrote about " "the
triumphal flow of visual movement." I wonder how many viewers noticed
how close to "Laura" the movie is... "In Harm's way" is extremely
impressive too (that opening sequence!) but I wouldn't call it a
masterpiece. Great in parts, yes, but a semi-failure as a whole, and
a film I don't really feel like watching again (whereas I have
watched "Anatomy" about 40 times and still do with the same pleasure).
I think the idea of a petition to bring "Bunnyy Lake" to DVD is
great, although it would probably be fruitless (how many signatures
can we get?)
JPC
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2280
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 3:54pm
Subject: Re: Anyone know where I can find Trafic?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a US distributor for Trafic? (the
magazine, not
> the Tati film)
> Has anyone seen it in a magazine store/bookstore in the US?
>
> George Robinson
>
I never saw it anywhere in New York or Boston at least. I doubt they
have a US distributor but I could ask them (even Positif doesn't have
a distributor here!) Subscribing might be the easier (and cheapest)
way, since the price of the single issue would probably be twice the
original if you could find one here!
JPC
>
> One night, as he walked past the home of a shoemaker, Rabbi
Salanter noticed
> that despite the late hour, the man was still working by the light
of a
> dying candle. "Why are you still working," he asked. "It is very
late and
> soon that candle will go out." The shoemaker replied, "As long as
the candle
> is still burning, it is still possible to accomplish and to mend."
Salanter
> spent that entire night excitedly pacing his room and repeating to
himself:
> "As long as the candle is still burning, it is still possible to
accomplish
> and to mend."
2281
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bunny Lake is Missing
I also admire "Bunny Lake." An excellent analysis of
it by Richard McGuiness appeared in issue #3 (Summer
1966) of James Stoller's legendary and much-missed
magazine "Moviegoer."
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a...
> wrote:
> > In a message dated 10/6/2003 0:37:10 Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> > auteurwannabe2000@y... writes:
> >
> > > But when oh when will my own personal favorite,
> "Bunny Lake is
> Missing" be
> > > available in any format? Maybe us
> Preminger-philes ought to start
> a petition.
> >
> > I love "Bunny Lake" - of those two B&W 'Scope
> masterpiece he
> released in 1965
> > (the other being "In Harm's Way"), I might just
> give a mild edge
> to "Bunny."
> > I heard, unofficially, about a year ago that a DVD
> release was
> finally
> > forthcoming, but nothing's come of it as yet. In
> fact, every
> single Preminger film
> > after "Bunny Lake" is unavailable on DVD and in
> their proper aspect
> ratios. A
> > huge loss.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
> I love "Bunny Lake" but haven't seen it in at
> least 25 years!
> Saw it last at MOMA, must have been in the very
> early '80s, since I
> discuss it at length in "American Directors". I
> remember little of
> the film except for a feeling of intense
> exhilaration. A triumph of
> pure mise en scene over dubious material. I wrote
> about " "the
> triumphal flow of visual movement." I wonder how
> many viewers noticed
> how close to "Laura" the movie is... "In Harm's way"
> is extremely
> impressive too (that opening sequence!) but I
> wouldn't call it a
> masterpiece. Great in parts, yes, but a semi-failure
> as a whole, and
> a film I don't really feel like watching again
> (whereas I have
> watched "Anatomy" about 40 times and still do with
> the same pleasure).
>
> I think the idea of a petition to bring "Bunnyy
> Lake" to DVD is
> great, although it would probably be fruitless (how
> many signatures
> can we get?)
>
> JPC
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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2282
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Bunny Lake is Missing
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> I love "Bunny Lake" but haven't seen it in at least 25 years!
> Saw it last at MOMA, must have been in the very early '80s, since I
> discuss it at length in "American Directors". I remember little of
> the film except for a feeling of intense exhilaration.
>
> I think the idea of a petition to bring "Bunnyy Lake" to DVD is
> great, although it would probably be fruitless (how many signatures
> can we get?)
It was shown again at MoMA about five years ago, introduced as a favorite by Sarris. Judging by the success of that screening -- I remember that it won over a Kael-ite non-auteurist I knew completely (well, the likes of Olivier and Coward probably helped) -- a lot of people would probably be prepared to sign that petition. But I'm not so sure I would want to watch this one on my TV set...
2283
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 5:33pm
Subject: Trafic
George,
Subscribe. They are on a subscription drive - they need the
dough. Failing that, push an institution - or several - near you
where you can read it to subscribe.
2284
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Agee's positive / negative review of single movie
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth NOLAN wrote:
>
> > "Damien Bona" wrote:
> >
> > "I think that knowing about the personal life/ beliefs/
personality of
> > an artist in any field illuminates our understanding of him or her
> > because these aspects inform what and how they create."
>
> Interesting, the life, beliefs, and personality of the viewer,
reviewer,
> and critic influence the interpretation of the film; certainly the
> critic should be most objective but how hard is it to separate one
> personal likes from objective criticism? I remember reading that
James
> Agree was criticized for giving a relatively positive review of a
> particular movie to one magazine and a negative review of the same
movie
> to another. Did he have different readers in mind? I don't
remember
> the movie or magazines, does anyone else?
Agee wrote for both The Nation and Time between 1942-48. "Relatively"
in your post is the keyword. One of Agee's characteristics as a
critic was to write words of praise on a film then immediately (often
in the same sentence)to add an important qualification -- or vice-
versa. This kind of approach perhaps explains why he could feel
comfortable reviewing the same films in two different magazines,
accentuating the positive in one, the negative in the other. You
could check out "Agee on Film" for examples, but they selected much
more stuff from The Nation than from Time, and rarely the same
movie...
Writing about films I have quite often felt myself drifting
involontarily toward a more negative, or more positive, stance than I
intended at the start. As though the review itself was taking over
and leading you where it wanted... Sometimes you can correct it,
sometimes it really escapes you. The latter happened to me with my
review of Scorsese's "Casino" for Positif a few years ago. I didn't
realize how much I had "drifted" until I saw it in print and
revisited the film.
JPC
2285
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Bunny Lake
"I think the idea of a petition to bring "Bunny Lake" to DVD is
great, although it would probably be fruitless (how many signatures
can we get?)"
Hey, so I guess "Bunny Lake" really IS missing...even though this movie was a critical (except for Sarris and a few others) and commercial flop, it really does have a serious cult following. I think if the right people (prof's, writers, filmmakers) petitioned the right people, it might happen.
I've seen "Bunny Lake" twice, first at the St. Mark's Place in lower Manhattan back in 1985, then later on televsion. I was bowled over by the fluidity of Preminger's style but even more the original and impressive theme of how different adults deal with the lingering effects of childhood traumas (i.e; Noel Coward's fetishest vs Magaret Rutherford's children's author). And Olivier is, of course, great.
Rick
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2286
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 6:34pm
Subject: Sarris on on John Ford and "The Grapes of Wrath"
Andrew Sarris' "The John Ford Movie Mystery," seems to serve as both a tribute to Ford's art and an extended rationalization, and occasional defense, of his politics.
I find this passage intriguing:
"Even the consttiturent viewr elements of the editorail 'we' would provide a bewidering diversity of veiwpoints and associations, and the passage of time would actually alter the 'look', 'sound' and 'feel' of the film. When "The grapes of Wrath" was screened for students at a Yale seminar I gave in 1970 the hostile reaction baffled me at first, but then I realised that what seemed unusally courageous in 1940 seemed unduly contrived in 1970. And what had once seemd the the last word in realsim now seemded strangely stylized. Besides, the New Deailsh optimism which initially inspired the project had evaparorated over the years the with swings to the right of McCarthyism, Eisenhowerism and Nixonism, and with the growing realization that the original Oakies of the Grapes of Wrath were to become the staunchest supporters of Ronald Reagan in California." (pp. 92)
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2287
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:20pm
Subject: Positive/negative criticism, critics' biographies
Elizabeth,
The champion of north/south reviewing was Agee's best
disciple, Manny Farber. Read the review he and Patricia
Patterson wrote of Taxi Driver (in the expanded edition of
Negative Space) if you want to see one that does a 180 in
midstream. They commented on that 180 in their interview with
Rick Thompson for Film Comment, back when Film
Comment...Oh, forget it.
The question of critics' biographies is an interesting and pretty
unexplored one. The critic who has written most about himself is
Jonathan Rosenbaum, whose first book, Moving Places, is an
autobiography. His recent collections of articles often supplies
context for the writing of the articles.
I used to write Letters from Hollywood for Cahiers that were
supposed to be partly about me, but they were works of fiction
woven from threads of boring truth. Maybe that's why they proved
hard for others to copy. I remember one associate who wrote a
would-be Letter for CdC with the promising title of "The Itinerary
of a New York Cinephile" (possibly supplied by the editors) that
read like Jeanne Diehlman: "First I went to the Walter Read,
where I saw this that and the other. Then I went to MOMA, where I
saw etc. etc." I suspect that if most of us wrote down our daily
activities, it would come out like that - that's why I always jazzed
my accounts up with symbols and metaphors and stuff.
Also, I'm not sure we can expect more candor in these matters
from critics than from filmmakers. Louis Skorecki (formerly of
Cahiers, now at Liberation) guessed in his review of Annie Hall
that, despite the film's autobiographical nature, Allen was telling
the parts about himself that didn't really hurt, and leaving the
parts that did hurt unsaid. From the little I know about Allen, that's
very much the case.
However, the autobiographical note I posted next to Fred's is all
true. I wish some of our colleagues would follow suit - so far it's
just 3 of us, and it's been weeks! It would be kind of fun to know
who everyone is, more or less.
2288
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:36pm
Subject: Re: Positive/negative criticism, critics' biographies
Well here's all you need to know about me:
http://www.ehrensteinland.com/htmls/bio.html
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Elizabeth,
>
> The champion of north/south reviewing was Agee's
> best
> disciple, Manny Farber. Read the review he and
> Patricia
> Patterson wrote of Taxi Driver (in the expanded
> edition of
> Negative Space) if you want to see one that does a
> 180 in
> midstream. They commented on that 180 in their
> interview with
> Rick Thompson for Film Comment, back when Film
> Comment...Oh, forget it.
>
> The question of critics' biographies is an
> interesting and pretty
> unexplored one. The critic who has written most
> about himself is
> Jonathan Rosenbaum, whose first book, Moving Places,
> is an
> autobiography. His recent collections of articles
> often supplies
> context for the writing of the articles.
>
> I used to write Letters from Hollywood for Cahiers
> that were
> supposed to be partly about me, but they were works
> of fiction
> woven from threads of boring truth. Maybe that's why
> they proved
> hard for others to copy. I remember one associate
> who wrote a
> would-be Letter for CdC with the promising title of
> "The Itinerary
> of a New York Cinephile" (possibly supplied by the
> editors) that
> read like Jeanne Diehlman: "First I went to the
> Walter Read,
> where I saw this that and the other. Then I went to
> MOMA, where I
> saw etc. etc." I suspect that if most of us wrote
> down our daily
> activities, it would come out like that - that's why
> I always jazzed
> my accounts up with symbols and metaphors and stuff.
>
> Also, I'm not sure we can expect more candor in
> these matters
> from critics than from filmmakers. Louis Skorecki
> (formerly of
> Cahiers, now at Liberation) guessed in his review of
> Annie Hall
> that, despite the film's autobiographical nature,
> Allen was telling
> the parts about himself that didn't really hurt, and
> leaving the
> parts that did hurt unsaid. From the little I know
> about Allen, that's
> very much the case.
>
> However, the autobiographical note I posted next to
> Fred's is all
> true. I wish some of our colleagues would follow
> suit - so far it's
> just 3 of us, and it's been weeks! It would be kind
> of fun to know
> who everyone is, more or less.
>
>
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2289
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 3:47pm
Subject: Reminder
All,
I'd like to briefly interrupt the many interesting conversations going on at
the moment and put on my co-moderator hat: if you haven't already, please read
the post Fred and I made on September 1.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/message/1642
I want to reemphasize point 3 since we have a number of new members since
September 1. Yahoo! provides our group with only limited bandwidth; in fact, we
anticipate moving the archives to a separate site as we grow. However it
would certainly help conserve bandwidth if all members would quote only the
pertinent portions of messages they are replying to. This shouldn't dissuade anyone
from making essay-length posts - just don't >quote< the essay-length post
you're replying to!
Thanks - carry on!
Peter
http://hometown.aol.com/ptonguette/index.html
2290
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 6:17pm
Subject: Re:Bunny Lake is Missing
I have not seen "Bunny Lake is Missing" for decades either, but here is what
memory says it was all about...
For those who have not seen it, a (non-spoiling) summary of its mystery plot:
a single mother visits England. She says her little girl Bunny has
disappeared. The viewer has never seen Bunny, and does not know if Bunny is real, or a
figment of the heroine's imagination. The police do not believe her. The
heroine does everything to try to track down her little girl, and prove she is
real...
What Preminger seems to be getting at is this: all that is left of Bunny is
her mother's love for her. There are no facts supporting Bunny's existance, no
objective evidence. Nothing is left of Bunny except what is in the heroine's
heart. All that remains is the deep inside of a human being, the feelings in
one person's soul.
By contrast, the policeman (played by Laurence Olivier, no less) represents
Society. He only sees things that are validated by society. Since no one in
England claims ever to have seen Bunny, he is sure that Bunny does not exist.
Only society and its values and consensus are real to him. Personal feelings,
like the heroine's for her alleged daughter, have no significance for him. They
do not matter, have no importance...
The film is a titanic duel between these two points of view.
Preminger had dealt with related ideas before. In "Whirlpool" (1950), what
the heroine is feeling contradicts what her husband says she ought to be
feeling. He says this, not because he believes his ideas are right, but because his
ideas are conventional. They represent social norms. This disconnect bewteen
her husband's official social dogmas and her desperate inner reality causes her
to fall prey to a vicious charlatan, thus triggering a thriller plot.
Geeting back to "Bunny Lake is Missing", the treatment reflects Preminger's
deep interest in ambiguity, in at least two different ways. One one level of
plot, the viewer is unsure throughout the entire film, who is telling the truth.
Is the mother telling the truth, and Bunny is real? Or is the policeman
right, and the mother just delusional, and there is no Bunny?
More deeply, who is right about personal feelings? When personal feelings are
not reflected in social consensus views of reality, do personal feelings have
any significance? How important ARE feelings, anyway? Will Society ever find
room for them? Will society find a way to reflect our feelings, or will it run
over them like a steam roller?
The film also invokes social divides. The heroine (the personal character) is
a woman; the policeman (society) is a man. We are at the divide separating
male power and female powerlessness. The heroine also seems much less forceful
than the policeman, more ordinary and lower class. We were in the dead middle
of the sixties here, and its look at whether social authority is legitimate or
not.
Few films have ever seemed so powerful, so meaningful, so deeply impressive
to me as "Bunny Lake is Missing".
Mike Grost
2291
From: Paul Fileri
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Bunny Lake Is Missing
Mike Grost:
> By contrast, the policeman (played by Laurence Olivier, no less)
represents
> Society. He only sees things that are validated by society. Since no
one in
> England claims ever to have seen Bunny, he is sure that Bunny does
not exist.
> Only society and its values and consensus are real to him. Personal
feelings,
> like the heroine's for her alleged daughter, have no significance for
him. They
> do not matter, have no importance...
Some interesting thoughts on the film, Mike, though my inclination is
that interpretations could become too coarse-grained if we say the
police officer "represents Society."
I have to agree that it's an excellent film too. Fortunately, there is
at least one top-notch print of BUNNY LAKE IS MISSING available and
floating around. I saw a beautiful one, newly struck by Columbia, in
May 2002 at the George Eastman House. At the time, I was told that it
had been screened in Chicago at the Gene Siskel Film Center before
coming to Rochester.
What still strikes me about BUNNY is that Preminger is able to build a
marvelous level of disquietude simply from revealing the danger present
in the most normal-seeming of childhood activities and locations (the
main settings are a preschool and apartment building complex). THE
NIGHT OF THE HUNTER is a possible reference point here. An old witch
of a woman, always inappropriately at ease, analyzes hypnotic
recordings of kids recounting their dreams with naive innocence.
Conversations between adults take place in the preschool's playrooms
during the movie's investigation, an opportunity which the film latches
onto and takes advantage of in the mise-en-scene. Grown-ups loom large
while idly swaying in small swings or riding rocking horses, gestures
and scale thrown out of proportion, given an estranging force. Most
unsettlingly, there's that later scene at night in the obscurity of a
doll-repairshop's basement. Only a candle illuminates shelves upon
shelves filled with disembodied doll-heads, doll-torsos, and doll-limbs
-- like we're being ushered into a crypt. Moreover, it's a sort of
rampant artificiality that clearly resonates with the central question
of Bunny Lake's existence.
Plus, you get those long-forgotten Zombies providing ambience, even
pushing to the foreground in a bar scene, that fiddles a bit with some
focal tension between a background television and an urgent
narrative-oriented conversation.
- Paul
2292
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:28pm
Subject: Otto's oddities, Ford's flotsam, The politics of It's All True
1. Love Bunny, Harm's; cannot watch Anatomy. Stewart's worst
performance; ghastly soundtrack (sounds like a porn loop - no
spotting to speak of); "winning moves" galore, etc. Synthesis isn't
what I like in the late ones. What's the opposite of "synthesis"?
2. What if what Dan calls the flotsam were part of what makes
Ford a great filmmaker? Jean-Claude Biette said something like
that about Murnau in "What Is a Filmmaker," the article in which
he proposes answers to many of the questions we keep circling
around on this site.
3. "Carnival" would have been about the death of Carnival,
brought about by the destruction of Praca Onze [Plaza 11] to
make way for Getulio Vargas Boulevard (named after the
benevolent dictator of the country at the time), a progressive
decision much lamented in the hit song of the Carnival which
Welles went to Rio to film, which the last Carnival before the war
and the last real Carnival ever. Welles rebuilt Praca Onze on a
soundstage at Cinedia and reenacted the last Carnival there
and on other sets, as well as practical locations.
The jangadeiros were fishermen who fished from rafts built the
way the natives, their ancestors, built them 400 years before the
first settlers. The jangadeiros' whole way of life - in harmony with
Nature, as Welles portrayed it - was and still is an anachronism
from the point of view of Brazilian capitalism, as at least one
Brazilian interviewer told me when the film was being released
there, by way of saying "Why should we be interested in these
people?" Therefore/and yet Welles was considered a
communist for associating with Jacare.
When four present-day jangadeiros reenacted the voyage of the
Sao Pedro after our visit, they went to Rio, not knowing that the
seat of government had moved. They are currently menaced by
developers and predatory fishing boats from Japan that will
eventually wipe out the species of fish they have harvested
carefully fort centuries. Yet their sail is a symbol on all the tourist
trinkets in Fortaleza - like the ad for Don Quixote beer that
Sancho and Quixote ride past in that film.
So Welles - rather like Ford - resisted progress.
2293
From: Rick Segreda
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:29pm
Subject: Bunny Lake; themes (warning; plot spoiler)
A great work of art can offer many layers of meaning; so in addition to affirming what Mike and Paul see in this film, my own is that it is a parable of how some people integrate their childhood issues and become functioning, healthy adutlts, while others remained hostage to them. Recall how the original Alice Miller's original title for Drama of the Gifted Child was "Prisoners of Childhood." From my memory of the film, we learn late in the storyline not only that Bunny Lake indeed does exist, but that Carol Lynley and Keir Dullea characters are brother and sister (though not incestously so), and then, the final plot twist when we find out who has been behind Bunny Lake's disapearence all the while. The Noel Coward character's S & M fetishist and Margaret Rutherford's childen's author, to me, represent two polarities of adults, one who is a case of perverted, arrested development, and one who has become an artist. That is paralelled by the Lynley/Dullea dichotomy. One turns out to be
a sane, functioning adult, one is a prisoner of childhood.
Throughout Preminger's camera seems to bob and weave, almost as if it was alternately looking at things from the point of view of an adult and the point of view of a child.
There is an ongoing theme in Preminger's work, more succesfully realized in some movies than others, of characters being haunted by their past. Off the top of my head, I am thinking of Jean Seberg's guilty, possesive daughter in "Bonjour Tristesse" or the three main characters in "Junie Moon," or the gay senator in "Advice and Consent."
Also, the sanity/insanity issue comes up in "Laura" and "Angel Face," among other films.
To me, the best scene in the other negligable "Hurry Sundown" involves a heartrenderingly sad scene where a little boy finds that he is trapped in a room that is about to explode. The camera remains still at a middle-distance as the kid frantically and futily tries to escape. But he can't.
Very Preminger like.
"What still strikes me about BUNNY is that Preminger is able to build a
marvelous level of disquietude simply from revealing the danger present
in the most normal-seeming of childhood activities and locations (the
main settings are a preschool and apartment building complex). THE
NIGHT OF THE HUNTER is a possible reference point here. An old witch
of a woman, always inappropriately at ease, analyzes hypnotic
recordings of kids recounting their dreams with naive innocence.
Conversations between adults take place in the preschool's playrooms
during the movie's investigation, an opportunity which the film latches
onto and takes advantage of in the mise-en-scene. Grown-ups loom large
while idly swaying in small swings or riding rocking horses, gestures
and scale thrown out of proportion, given an estranging force. Most
unsettlingly, there's that later scene at night in the obscurity of a
doll-repairshop's basement. Only a candle illuminates shelves upon
shelves filled with disembodied doll-heads, doll-torsos, and doll-limbs
-- like we're being ushered into a crypt. Moreover, it's a sort of
rampant artificiality that clearly resonates with the central question
of Bunny Lake's existence."
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2294
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:34pm
Subject: Bunny Lake
Great connection to Night of the Hunter. I'd add one of Agee's
favorites, The Curse of the Cat People, which may have
influenced him and Laughton for Night. Olivier is delightful in that
film.
Mike Schlesinger is the head of Sony Repertory, and incidentally
the guy who finally got It's All True greenlighted at Paramount.
He's a total buff and keeps striking new prints of Preminger,
Boetticher etc. for our delectation. Michael Friend, leading
archivist, is now at Sony, too. I'd suggest addressing all petitions
to them. You will be preaching to the choir.
2295
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Otto's oddities, Ford's flotsam, The politics of It's All True
In a message dated 10/6/2003 19:30:38 Eastern Daylight Time,
hotlove666@y... writes:
> 1. Love Bunny, Harm's; cannot watch Anatomy. Stewart's worst
> performance; ghastly soundtrack (sounds like a porn loop - no
> spotting to speak of); "winning moves" galore, etc. Synthesis isn't
> what I like in the late ones. What's the opposite of "synthesis"?
>
I think Tag also has problems with "Anatomy," so you're not alone. I like it
very, very much, but not as much as the '60s films. My biggest problem with
"Anatomy" is that it's not in 'Scope - I know it's not about the founding of
Israel or anything so epic, but whenever I see that courtroom I long for
Preminger's rectangular compositions for some reason.
Yes, I suppose synthesis really isn't the word for something as schizoid as
"Junie Moon." I'm struggling for the right one to describe its radical sense
of form.
Great essays on "Bunny Lake" by Mike Grost, Paul Fileri, and Rick Segreda!
I'll try to comment as time allows.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2296
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Positive/negative criticism, critics' biographies
> However, the autobiographical note I posted next to Fred's is all
> true. I wish some of our colleagues would follow suit - so far it's
> just 3 of us, and it's been weeks! It would be kind of fun to know
> who everyone is, more or less.
OKay but how do you post an autobiographical note? Just like any
other post? How do you find another person's bio if you don't catch
it the first time it's posted?
My first post a few weeks ago was actually an autobiographical
introduction, and fairly long too. Unfortunately, or fortunately, it
somehow got lost in cyberspace. I didn't feel like doing it again
after that. Maybe I'll try again.
*All writing is autobiographical, except autobiography, which is
(mostly) fiction.
Jean-Pierre Coursodon
2297
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 7:56pm
Subject: a_film_by Projects
In a message dated 10/6/2003 19:50:11 Eastern Daylight Time,
jpcoursodon@y... writes:
> OKay but how do you post an autobiographical note? Just like any
> other post? How do you find another person's bio if you don't catch
> it the first time it's posted?
>
Bill is referring to our Bios section, accessed in the Files area of the site
(which is listed on the bar on the left of our main page.) I'm actually not
sure if everyone is aware of this section, so now's a good time to promote it.
Fred is maintaining this project; if anyone wants to add their
autobiographies, e-mail them to him.
On the other hand, I'm organizing our Top 10 project: a collection of the
"best of" lists of all of our members (except the ones who don't make them, of
course). Version 1.0 should be online by the end of the month, so there's still
time to submit them (to me, via e-mail) if you are so inclined.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2298
From:
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 9:57pm
Subject: Re: Otto's oddities, Ford's flotsam, The politics of It's All True
Does anyone have copies of Junie Moon and Such Good Friends on video? I don't
feel like spending $25 at VSOM when I'm sure I could work a friendly trade
with a list member. I have tons of rare films and any format is fine. Feel free
to email me off list.
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2299
From: jaketwilson
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 2:21am
Subject: Re: De Palma (Femme Fatale spoilers)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I actually don't know too much about De Palma's personal life at
all, let alone inside information, but I think that "Femme Fatale"
> can still usefully be hought of in terms of a confessional. What
is the film but a rigorous self-examination of a character who
> committed a series of bad deeds, glimpsed the consequences, and
thus became determined to do everything possible to avoid the
> consequences?
Viewing De Palma as a surrealist rather than a moralist, another
reading might be: it's a film about a character who revels in her
sexuality, commits appalling crimes and betrayals, suffers, dies, is
resurrected, orchestrates the slaughter of her enemies, and emerges
squeaky-clean. Conclusion: a beautiful woman can have anything she
wants, including absolute power over time, space, fate and narrative.
JTW
2300
From: jaketwilson
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 2:32am
Subject: Re: "I've never considered Ford a racist"
However one defines racism, there was/is so much of it around in
Hollywood that it seems unfair to single Ford out.
In one of the posts that kicked off this discussion, Damien placed
Blake Edwards as a leftist, but the racial caricatures in his films
can be pretty appalling. Though in BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S at least,
my impression is he knows just how offensive he's being and is
messing with our minds.
JTW
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