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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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4401
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:35pm
Subject: DRUMS ALONG THE MOHAWK
I know the story of FORD's great fortune in 'arranging the weather'
during/after a burial in Monument Valley (can't remember the film
details presently), but just watched the beginning of DRUMS ALONG THE
MOHAWK and again what a weather/cloud scene. The newly weds are
starting their journey just after they honeymoon night in the King's
Row inn. There's first an overcast sky with low clouds. As the story
continues, the morning sky is blue, just a few friendly white clouds.
Talk of Indians and Tory War is followed by flies signaling rain, and
behold the ski, half with wispy clouds, half with a thundering storm is
the 9/10 background for the small wagon proceeding onward in the lower
screen. Remarkable good fortunate which is much appreciated in these
CGI days.
Interesting aside. I often have the TV screen playing when 'working
otherwise' in my office. I've learned to look away with dialogue and
turn my eyes to the set when silence meaning the picture is talking.
4402
From: Tosh
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Liaisons, Bardot, and TamTam
This is a response to Damien's letter regarding Bardot and the road
to my TamTam Books:
In general cinema brings out a romance that may or may not be real. I
for sure fell in love with a cinema that wasn't maybe real. I think
seeing Bardot on a large screen (And God Created Women) had a
powerful affect on me.
In a nutshell this was my opening to French pop culture - along this
road came Rimbaud, Cocteau, Melville (the director), Franju, Andre
Breton, Gainsbourg, etc.
About ten years ago I discovered Boris Vian in Japan - of all places.
Due to the fact that Japan and France are similar in many ways. Both
are extremely fashionable - and I think are in love with the style of
its times, etc.
Researching Vian's work and his world lead me back to Roger Vadim.
Is Liaisons a great film? Probably not- but just having the stars in
it, the great soundtrack, and of course Vian himself - well that's
fantastic. So that is why I love Vadim's Liaisons. It is the same
passion that started TamTam Books - which is only focused on
Pop/critical French culture: Vian, Gainsbourg and Debord.
All I can say that one of the important moments in my life is when my
father argued with the movie theater owner in getting me in to see a
Vadim picture. So right or wrong that one screening had a major
affect on me.
I can also add watching Keaton's The General in Larry Jordan's house
around the same time. It really opened up something inside me.
Oh, and if anyone is interested in TamTam, just write to me and I
will put you on the mailing list - or answer any of your questions.
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
4403
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:15pm
Subject: Re: DRUMS ALONG THE MOHAWK
> I know the story of FORD's great fortune in 'arranging the weather'
> during/after a burial in Monument Valley (can't remember the film
> details presently), but just watched the beginning of DRUMS ALONG THE
> MOHAWK and again what a weather/cloud scene.
I think DRUMS is still rather underrated: I consider it the best of
Ford's 1939 films, and maybe his best film until the post-war run that
begins with EXPENDABLE and CLEMENTINE. The script is actually rather
nice, and fairly well-focused: the film seems to be organized around the
idea of the frontier experience from the woman's perspective, even
though the storytelling is too violent and unnerving for the film to be
what they used to call a "woman's picture." - Dan
4404
From:
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Welles/Fountain
Joe,
I just ran across your post. I am familiar with the Godard quote you
mention, though not Farber's review of "Ambersons." In fact, I'm not sure I've ever
read Farber on Welles before - save for a brief mention in his introduction to
"Negative Space" where he talks a bit about "Touch of Evil" (which it seems
to me he likes.)
Good to hear from another Columbus native. The Wexner Center is pretty much >
it< when it comes to viewing older films, 'obscure' new releases, and so on.
I don't know if the Drexel theatres were around when you lived here, but they
tend to play only the three or four big 'indie' successes of the moment. If
you want to see "The Son" or "Ten" or "Beau travail"... the Wex is the only
place to go. It was also the venue where I saw (as part of various series or
retrospectives) "Barry Lyndon," "The Devil, Probably," "Week-end," "Killer of
Sheep," "Hyenas," etc., etc. on the big screen for the first times. Their
programming is simply tops.
Cheers,
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4405
From:
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Immortal Story
Jonathan writes:
> A related thing that Oja once said to me: "Orson liked to invent his
> own superstitions."
That's a wonderful quote. I always think of that great little speech Welles
gave to the student audience for "Filming 'The Trial'" (unfinished) about his
obsession with the moon. He quotes Robert Graves (his favorite writer along
with Isak Dinesen) on how the moon landing was the most blasphemous thing to
happen since Alexander cut the Gordian knot. I've only seen an excerpt of this,
but I imagine Welles was talking of the moon in relation to the famous story,
recounted in "This Is Orson Welles," of how he thought he saw >two< moons in
the sky the night he learned from Salkind that there was no money for sets of
any kind for "The Trial." It turned out he was seeing the clock faces on the
Gare d'Orsay and he spent that night wandering the streets mapping out his
locations for the movie.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4406
From:
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:25pm
Subject: Re: John Korty Alert
Dan writes:
> I suspect that,
> like a lot of TV directors at the time, he wasn't exactly given carte
> blanche when he got to make a feature.
What made me slightly curious was that Korty is credited as co-screenwriter,
suggesting a greater degree of personal involvement than one might suspect at
first. Anyway, I might rent it sometime. I did see Korty's "The Music
School" recently and thought it to be one of the best TV movies of the '70s, so I'm
eager to see more of his work. Thanks for the recommendations!
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4407
From:
Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:27pm
Subject: Re: DRUMS ALONG THE MOHAWK
Count me in as a big fan of "Drums Along the Mohawk." I recently re-saw it
on Fox Movies (which is also airing, again, "Steamboat Round the Bend" tomorrow
afternoon). I still think I like "Young Mr. Lincoln" more, but coming in
second best to a film that great is nothing to be ashamed of.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4408
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:47am
Subject: Re: John Korty Alert
> What made me slightly curious was that Korty is credited as co-screenwriter,
> suggesting a greater degree of personal involvement than one might suspect at
> first. Anyway, I might rent it sometime. I did see Korty's "The Music
> School" recently and thought it to be one of the best TV movies of the '70s, so I'm
> eager to see more of his work.
THE MUSIC SCHOOL is very fine, and a rare case where Korty got to do the
arty, associational kind of filmmaking that he probably felt most
comfortable with. (If THE CRAZY QUILT is any indication, his career
started out in this mode - though I think THE MUSIC SCHOOL is the better
film.) Most of his other TV work is much more conventional in its
storytelling. - Dan
4409
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:30am
Subject: Re: Re: The Immortal Story
--- ptonguette@a... wrote:
I always think of that
> great little speech Welles
> gave to the student audience for "Filming 'The
> Trial'" (unfinished) about his
> obsession with the moon. He quotes Robert Graves
> (his favorite writer along
> with Isak Dinesen) on how the moon landing was the
> most blasphemous thing to
> happen since Alexander cut the Gordian knot.
I was there in that audience! I saved a cigar he lit,
puffed on once and then discarded when he walked in
through the side door.
I have it in a bottle marked "Rosebud"
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4410
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:16pm
Subject: cigar in a bottle marked "Rosebud"
SAVE THE DNA!
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:30:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: David Ehrenstein
> Subject: Re: Re: The Immortal Story
>
>
> --- ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I always think of that
>> great little speech Welles
>> gave to the student audience for "Filming 'The
>> Trial'" (unfinished) about his
>> obsession with the moon. He quotes Robert Graves
>> (his favorite writer along
>> with Isak Dinesen) on how the moon landing was the
>> most blasphemous thing to
>> happen since Alexander cut the Gordian knot.
>
> I was there in that audience! I saved a cigar he lit,
> puffed on once and then discarded when he walked in
> through the side door.
>
> I have it in a bottle marked "Rosebud"
4411
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:25pm
Subject: EL and STROMBOLI
This past week I watched EL (needle and thread to the bedroom scene)
and STROMBOLI (boarding up the door to the house). I am sure there are
plenty more examples of men trying to keep their women. I remember
something of the story line of BOXING HELENA.
On the other hand, I think there is a Rock Hudson / Doris Day movie
where he feigns dying in order to keep her.
Of course, you catch more flies with honey, and 'diamonds are a girl's
best friend.'
Just sharing these lingering thoughts about EL and STROMBOLI.
4412
From:
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 253
In a message dated 11/19/2003 10:24:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
a_film_by@yahoogroups.com writes:
> I just ran across your post. I am familiar with the Godard quote you
> mention, though not Farber's review of "Ambersons." In fact, I'm not sure
> I've ever
> read Farber on Welles before - save for a brief mention in his introduction
> to
> "Negative Space" where he talks a bit about "Touch of Evil" (which it seems
> to me he likes.)
I think the discussion of Kane in "The Gimp" may be the most extended in
Negative Space. It seems to have most of the White Elephant non-virtues for him --
showy, lumbering (or maybe lurching), self-important... I love Kane and still
feel he's kind of accurate about the way the film actually MOVES
"I've only seen an excerpt of this,
but I imagine Welles was talking of the moon in relation to the famous story,
recounted in "This Is Orson Welles," of how he thought he saw >two< moons in
the sky the night he learned from Salkind that there was no money for sets of
any kind for "The Trial." "
I love the exchange (paraphrasing):
OW: ...and the moon has always been very important to me.
(pause)
PBog: Care to elaborate?
OW: No.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4413
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:42pm
Subject: EL and STROMBOLI and IN THE CUT
ER -
First of all, bravo for the post of the week re: Welles' DNA! I was
there, too, David. I saw the footage again recently, with cutaways
to the audience, and we were ALL there!
Second: EL is based on a real case history which was written up
by the woman who lived it, with appendices by a psychiatrist and
a lawyer analyzing the husband's illness and justifying her
divorce: the reason for publishing it in Catholic Mexico of that era!
I think the needle and thread were Bunuel's idea, however.
I just saw and loved In the Cut, the new Jane Campion film,
which seemed to me her best since Angel at my Table. Viewed
as a script about characters in the conventional sense it's a
disaster. You know who did it, Ryan is totally opaque... But the
film is magnificent. I thought of it re: your post because it ends
with Willie Nelson's "I Didn't Want to Say Goodbye" and portrays
a woman living - apparently by choice - in a world where every
man could be the serial killer, by virtue of his being a man.
Brilliant filmmaking, and a very interesting character if you look at
her as a behavioral study, without expecting dialogue
revelations. The scenes with her sister played by Jennifer Jason
Leigh are also beautiful and strange and very fresh. An
assumption to discard at the beginning: that Ryan is repressed
and just needs a man. She is anything but. This is about a whole
other subject. BTW, it's from a controversial novel by a British
feminist. Highly recommended to fans of cinema, as opposed to
addicts of the well-made film. Absolutely stunning.
4414
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:07pm
Subject: Welles event
> First of all, bravo for the post of the week re: Welles' DNA! I was
> there, too, David. I saw the footage again recently, with cutaways
> to the audience, and we were ALL there!
Did you spot me? I was at at least one Welles event at USC, though I
can't remember if it was about THE TRIAL. - Dan
4415
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:17pm
Subject: Welles event
Dan, You were there. A very young Joe McBride and a.v.y. Todd
McCarthy. Barbara Frank. Myron. Me. David. Who's going to miss
seeing Welles in person?
4416
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Welles event
Wow I'd love to see that stuff. Is Gary Graver or Oja
Kodar planning to release it in some form?
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Dan, You were there. A very young Joe McBride and
> a.v.y. Todd
> McCarthy. Barbara Frank. Myron. Me. David. Who's
> going to miss
> seeing Welles in person?
>
>
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4417
From: Peter Tonguette
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Welles event
David E. writes:
> Wow I'd love to see that stuff. Is Gary Graver or Oja
> Kodar planning to release it in some form?
The Munich Filmmuseum has the material as part of their
collection. As with all of the unfinished Welles films they have in
their possession, they've "assembled" it ("restored" isn't the right
word) into something you can watch. In the case of "Filming 'The
Trial,'" basically all that means is tightening the editing a little bit
since it was all shot with one 16mm camera. I haven't
personally seen the assembly yet, but I presume Bill has?
Of course, Welles himself can edit the footage once you clone
that DNA, David.
I think I spotted Dan if Dan was in the front row of the audience.
Dan?
Peter
4418
From: Peter Tonguette
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:59pm
Subject: IN THE CUT
Bill writes:
> Highly recommended to fans of cinema, as opposed to
> addicts of the well-made film. Absolutely stunning.
I agree with you 100%, Bill, and I also agree with the way you
approach the film. The script is not so great, Ryan is... okay, but
what filmmaking! I hesitate to use the term "exercise in style"
because that seems to be apologizing for the film - and there's
no need to apologize for a film as cinematically brilliant as this.
Peter
4419
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:13pm
Subject: IN THE CUT
I started thinking: 'exercise in style" but concluded that there's a
lot of content - it just isn't conveyed thru the usual 'script points."
No doubt at all that it's visually ravishing, but it's visual in service
of. She is a real "cineaste" (J-CB) - or has become one again,
after a passage a vide through academicism.
4420
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:16pm
Subject: IN THE CUT
When I saw IN THE CUT, I sensed I was watching something cinematic, but
neither the story nor the acting was there. Still, I wasn't getting it
completely as cinema yet knew I would want to see it again. There
seemed something very intimate about it and if I remember correctly,
there aren't many close-ups and the nudity is little. The intimacy
seems to be in that there is no attempt to make anything look good (or
false), everything is right there on the surface as it is. And the
scenes seem to move quickly, in a nice apace sort of way, even if much
was not happening. Perhaps that is the entire pregnancy of the
film...you just know something bad is going to happen. I thought the
camera movement was quite fluid for this type of movie. Still I would
have to see it again before saying anything other than first impression.
I guess the whole ice skating thing (about the mother and father) was a
reference to the precarious edge we are all moving on, so close to the
cutting edge.
> I just saw and loved In the Cut, the new Jane Campion film,
> which seemed to me her best since Angel at my Table. Viewed
> as a script about characters in the conventional sense it's a
> disaster. You know who did it, Ryan is totally opaque... But the
> film is magnificent. I thought of it re: your post because it ends
> with Willie Nelson's "I Didn't Want to Say Goodbye" and portrays
> a woman living - apparently by choice - in a world where every
> man could be the serial killer, by virtue of his being a man.
> Brilliant filmmaking, and a very interesting character if you look at
> her as a behavioral study, without expecting dialogue
> revelations. The scenes with her sister played by Jennifer Jason
> Leigh are also beautiful and strange and very fresh. An
> assumption to discard at the beginning: that Ryan is repressed
> and just needs a man. She is anything but. This is about a whole
> other subject. BTW, it's from a controversial novel by a British
> feminist. Highly recommended to fans of cinema, as opposed to
> addicts of the well-made film. Absolutely stunning.
>
4421
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Welles event
> I think I spotted Dan if Dan was in the front row of the audience.
> Dan?
Yep. I think I'm visible in ONE-MAN BAND in the front row - presumably
it's the same evening. - Dan
4422
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: IN THE CUT
ER, That is how it hit me, too, although I thought Mark Ruffolo
was a great Burt Reynolds, and I always love Jason-Leigh.
I was really impressed by the peaceful surface sexuality of the
scenes with the two sisters, as opposed to the violence lurking
in every relationship Ryan has with a man: Her "star pupil" who
is writing a paper on John Wayne Gacy, and decorating it w.
blood; the two crazy cops, and her crazy ex- (Kevin Bacon), her
pal the pimp.
Ryan's character is opaque. Her constant irony, and her decision
to live where she lives (echoed by her sister's living over a
brothel) and her "bravery" (her sister's word), verging on
foolishness - I certainly wouldn't use that restroom! - vs. her
conflicted relationships with the men, which are one the one
hand perfectly understandable given the ever-present threat of
violence, but less understandable than the side of her that
accepts going to the lighthouse with the killer, say. (In that case it
could be that, knowing she has a gun, she feels safe and is
planning vengeance.) The motif of looking for "the words of the
prophet on the suybway walls" - words that are often pretty sappy
as poetry, but obviously have some meaning for her. The
ice-skating, which relates her conflicts to her experience of her
parents' marriage - her father has the same kill-count (4
marriages and who knows how many non-marriages) as the
serial killer.
Are the conflicts resolved by the last shot? The dreamlike style,
and the odd editing, which ends scenes before it should
(particularly the style of cutting re: dialogue) make this the most
thought-teasing film I've seen in ages, and shows that Campion,
who started as a master, is more one than ever - at least the
equal of Claire Denis.
4423
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:04pm
Subject: Re: EL and STROMBOLI
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> This past week I watched EL (needle and thread to the bedroom
>scene) and STROMBOLI (boarding up the door to the house). I am sure
>there are plenty more examples of men trying to keep their women. I
>remember something of the story line of BOXING HELENA.
Well, there's also Wyler's film THE COLLECTOR, which I think Bunuel
liked. James Mason locks Barbara Rush in the closet in BIGGER THAN
LIFE so that he can kill their son, although that's not quite the
same idea. This theme of female entrapment, of a man literally or
symbolically locking up or dominating a woman within a domestic space
is a staple of gothic melodrama: GASLIGHT, NOTORIOUS, EXPERIMENT
PERILOUS, etc. Then there's the indirect response to this: women
locking out the men, as in THE FOXES OF HARROW or MARNIE.
> On the other hand, I think there is a Rock Hudson / Doris Day movie
> where he feigns dying in order to keep her.
Yeah. SEND ME NO FLOWERS. I seem to remember Doris getting
accidentally locked OUT of her house in that one.
4424
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:27pm
Subject: locking out/in
What an unusual subject! Immediately I thought of MY NAME IS JULIA
ROSS, in which Nina Foch is locked up by a nutty mother-and-son.
Shelley Duvall locks Jach Nicholson in the pantry in THE SHINING.
There's an entire village in COME AND SEE, as well as THE PATRIOT
(not the Lubitsch/Jannings picture).
And doesn't the couple in Hitch's romcom MR. AND MRS. SMITH lock
themselves in the house or something to have an argument?
-Jaime
4425
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:38pm
Subject: Lock in
DIE, DIE MY DARLING!
4426
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:08am
Subject: Re: Lock in
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> DIE, DIE MY DARLING!
Earliest (?) and most famous female lock in: Gish in the closet in
BROKEN BLOSSOMS. Locks herself in to hide from her abusive father. He
breaks down the door and beats her to death. Griffith's Victorian
sadism at its most intense.
JPC
4427
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:48pm
Subject: Re: locking out/in
Don't forget THE COLLECTOR!
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
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4428
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:30am
Subject: Re: locking out/in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/message/4423
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Don't forget THE COLLECTOR!
>
> --- "Jaime N. Christley"
> wrote:
>
>
> __________________________________
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4429
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:34am
Subject: Re: locking out/in
And "The Night of the Hunter."
John and Pearl locked in the cellar.
--- David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Don't forget THE COLLECTOR!
>
> --- "Jaime N. Christley"
> wrote:
>
>
> __________________________________
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4430
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:45am
Subject: Lock in
And the time Lucy got locked in the deep freeze...
Anyone want to tell me we where we're going with this?
4431
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:46am
Subject: Re: locking out/in
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> And "The Night of the Hunter."
>
> John and Pearl locked in the cellar.
>
>
> Interesting lock in in Europe '51 : Bergman in the insane
asylum -- the lock-in is both imposed by the Powers That Be (-- all
male, of course:doctor/psychiatrist/priest/husband)AND self-imposed
or at least agreed to by the "victim".
JPC
>
> > __________________________________
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> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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4432
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:53am
Subject: Re: Lock in
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> And the time Lucy got locked in the deep freeze...
>
> Anyone want to tell me we where we're going with this?
Probably nowhere, except that Elizabeth Nolan brought up the
subject of women being locked up in movies, which could be a
legitimate subject for discussion. The frequency of this type of
situation in movies (overwhelmingly made by men until fairly
recently) surely has something to do with the male tendency to
confine and closet women, literally or metaphorically.
JPC
4433
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:49am
Subject: Re: Lock in
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> Probably nowhere, except that Elizabeth Nolan brought up the
> subject of women being locked up in movies, which could be a
> legitimate subject for discussion. The frequency of this type of
> situation in movies (overwhelmingly made by men until fairly
> recently) surely has something to do with the male tendency to
> confine and closet women, literally or metaphorically.
> JPC
LADY IN A CAGE (shot by the great Lee Garmes, one of his last) fits
the theme and also was part of the short cycle of movies of the sub-
genre of WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE? and the aforementioned DIE,
DIE MY DARLING.
Richard
4434
From:
Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:04pm
Subject: Re: Lock In
The Apple (Samira Makhmalbaf).
I loved "Die! Die! My Darling!" as a kid, but couldn't get back into it years
later as a grownup. People like Tallulah Bankhead, who had unique and
wonderful personalities, always fascinated me.
Tallulah Bankhead's autobiography is a lot of fun. It was she who coined the
phrase "There is less here than meets the eye," about a play she was watching.
"Tarnished Lady" (George Cukor) is a terrific movie with Tallulah. No one
talks about it much nowadays.
Mike Grost
4435
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:33am
Subject: Cukor again
> "Tarnished Lady" (George Cukor) is a terrific movie with Tallulah. No one
> talks about it much nowadays.
Yeah, it's good - after THE ROYAL FAMILY OF BROADWAY, I'd say it's the
best of that group of the five early Cukor films. (GIRLS ABOUT TOWN is
less good but worthy, I'd say; GRUMPY and VIRTUOUS SIN aren't good or
interesting.)
Speaking of Cukor, I was interested to read this in one of Joe M.'s
recent posts: "Cole claims that (Kendall's) great drunken scene was
staged by him and not Cukor since according to Cole Kendall had
difficulty in working with Cukor. She preferred directors who gave her
a lot of freedom and found Cukor too controlling and so she and Cole
worked out the staging for that scene." It's interesting that Cukor,
generally regarded as a great director of actors, might have been a
controlling director, because this breaks all today's, and probably
yesterday's, accepted rules of directing actors: it amounts to an
orthodoxy that good directors give actors a starting point but not a
point of arrival. I've come to suspect that this is one of those tenets
of craft that tends to lead to mediocre art. - Dan
4436
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:51am
Subject: PS
As an addition to my previous post: This Group has 91 members and as
far as I know only one woman (Elizabeth) or at least only one who
posts. The overwhelmingly male predominance goes hand in hand with
what Europeans might call an "anglo-saxon" predominance. So be it.
But I for one would like to hear more input from women in this Group.
I suggested one terrific person to Peter but nothing came out of it --
again, so be it. I have another one up my sleeve, so to speak, but
maybe the group prefers the status quo...
JPC
4437
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:08am
Subject: Re: Lock In
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
Bankhead's autobiography is a lot of fun. It was she who coined the
> phrase "There is less here than meets the eye," about a play she
was watching.
> .
> Mike Grost
The phrase was "coined" by any number of people, but I think the
most likely coiner was Dorothy Parker.
"As Dorothy Parker once said, to the boy friend 'Fare thee
well..."
JPC
4438
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:34am
Subject: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
I was musing to myself the cinematic expression of relationships
between men and women, having seen STROMBOLI and EL.
It was just part of my personal exercise in visual screenwriting but it
seems to have taken a life of its own.
Certainly there are lots of cinematic expressions of
relationships...but can one think of something that cannot be expressed
cinematically?
> Message: 21
> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:45:32 -0000
> From: "hotlove666"
> Subject: Lock in
>
> And the time Lucy got locked in the deep freeze...
>
> Anyone want to tell me we where we're going with this?
4439
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:45am
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
Certainly the cinema is a medium most suited for examining external
phenomena rather than private (internal) moments; a relationship
between two or more people will involve checking/examining the
emotional processes of one person before checking/examining another
(cutting), or else gazing upon a single person's expressed attitude
toward another (mise-en-scene). In other words, I cannot think of a
solution to your challenge. I think that, when other media express
relationships, they do so "cinematically."
-Jaime
> Certainly there are lots of cinematic expressions of
> relationships...but can one think of something that cannot be
expressed
> cinematically?
4440
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:54am
Subject: IN THE CUT
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:32:49 -0000
> From: "hotlove666"
> Subject: IN THE CUT
>
> ER, That is how it hit me, too, although I thought Mark Ruffolo
> was a great Burt Reynolds, and I always love Jason-Leigh.
>
> I was really impressed by the peaceful surface sexuality of the
> scenes with the two sisters, as opposed to the violence lurking
> in every relationship Ryan has with a man: Her "star pupil" who
> is writing a paper on John Wayne Gacy, and decorating it w.
> blood; the two crazy cops, and her crazy ex- (Kevin Bacon), her
> pal the pimp.
I took the two sisters to be half sisters and I thought they did not
spend time in their childhood together. I didn't know their ages but
thought Ryan the older by a few years at least. Jason Leigh has that
hard core yet vulnerable part down; perhaps Ryan was playing
vulnerable, yet hard core enough to survive the experiences.
Their time on screen was special in a most unusual way, nothing
artificial. It was a tremendous moment in acting and yet what was it
really about?
> Ryan's character is opaque. Her constant irony, and her decision
> to live where she lives (echoed by her sister's living over a
> brothel) and her "bravery" (her sister's word), verging on
> foolishness - I certainly wouldn't use that restroom! - vs. her
> conflicted relationships with the men, which are one the one
> hand perfectly understandable given the ever-present threat of
> violence, but less understandable than the side of her that
> accepts going to the lighthouse with the killer, say. (In that case it
> could be that, knowing she has a gun, she feels safe and is
> planning vengeance.) The motif of looking for "the words of the
> prophet on the suybway walls" - words that are often pretty sappy
> as poetry, but obviously have some meaning for her. The
> ice-skating, which relates her conflicts to her experience of her
> parents' marriage - her father has the same kill-count (4
> marriages and who knows how many non-marriages) as the
> serial killer.
Sounds like her looking forward to marriage would be as good as looking
forward to being done in by a serial killer. Is this the movie where
Ryan says to Ruffalo something like"You can love me but never say that
you love me," or am I taking that line from somewhere else?
> Are the conflicts resolved by the last shot? The dreamlike style,
> and the odd editing, which ends scenes before it should
> (particularly the style of cutting re: dialogue) make this the most
> thought-teasing film I've seen in ages, and shows that Campion,
> who started as a master, is more one than ever - at least the
> equal of Claire Denis.
>
4441
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:41am
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> I was musing to myself the cinematic expression of
> relationships
> between men and women, having seen STROMBOLI and EL.
>
> It was just part of my personal exercise in visual
> screenwriting but it
> seems to have taken a life of its own.
>
> Certainly there are lots of cinematic expressions of
>
> relationships...but can one think of something that
> cannot be expressed
> cinematically?
>
I would say that there are some things that can be
expressed cinematically only with great difficulty.
Certain kinds of interior monologues have a hard time
of making it over the hump. I think the ballroom scene
of "The Leopard" is a rare instance of one interiror
monologue whose exterirorization that really works.
And sexual desire is actually rather hard to convey,
being a very individual thing. Some of the sexist
moments in movies, I find, come about when the
filmmaker isn't pushing it. There's nothing really
sexy in "Last Tango." But I thin just about everyone
agrees thatthe love scenes in "Don't Look Now" REALLY
work. My favorite moments are rather fleeting: Scudder
climbing up the ladder in "Maurice," Alain Delon
kissing himself in the mirror in "Plein Soleil," and
of course bathtub chess in "The Talented Mr. Ripley."
Then there's a sense of place that isn't of the
travelogue variety. Antonioni is a wiz at this. And
Bertolucci isn't far behind in (the very underrated)
"The Sheltering Sky."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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4442
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:22am
Subject: Re: Directing actors
Dan, another myth shattered? Nothing like making movies yourself to
raise those questions. One hears a lot about laissez-faire direction
of actors, often attributed to major figures. There's the story about
Hitchcock freaking out Doris Day by not giving her directions, until
she went sobbing to Stewart, who told her that "no direction" meant
Hitchcock liked what she was doing. He was also quite capable of
intervening when he wasn't happy, and firing the actor if it came to
that, or when he needed something from an inexperienced actor. Slezak
told a great story about a physical exercise he gave the actress
playing the nurse in Lifeboat to help her mime a certain feeling - he
said he never worked with a director who knew more about acting
technique. The transcribed discussions with Hedren, one of which is
reproduced in Dan Auiler's Hitchcock's Notebooks, certainly show him
giving an inexperienced actress who was going to carry a whole film
explicit, shot-by-shot direction before the shooting started.
4443
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:24am
Subject: Re: In the Cut
The sister scenes are quite unusual. One friend said she assumed they
were lovers until a dialogue allusion to "our father" tipped her
otherwise. I've started on the book. Apparently that's Bleecker
Street. Has it really gotten that wild and wooly, New York members?
4444
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:44am
Subject: Expression
Refering again to Hitchcock's conversations with Tippi Hedren,
clearly he had an idea of what the character is feeling, and a way he
wanted it expressed. That is one approach to directing, which you see
there quite plainly. But there are directors who work with actors to
discover something. It doesn't have to be method-y and Cassavetian,
either - Renoir used to make actors repeate lines as if they were
reading the phone book till the real feeling emerged by itself.
Part of post-structuralist theory is that words create meaning rather
than expressing it, so that a metaphor - "steely gaze" - substitutes
one word for another ("steely" is not literally an adjective that can
be predicated of a gaze) and thereby creates a new idea, rather than
expressing a pre-existing similarity between steel and the gaze.
Godard used to say he used images to imprimer - imprint - something,
rather than to express - exprimer - something. Extending the idea to
filmmaking, maybe the behavior Jason-Leigh and Ryan (guided by
Campion) discovered on the set in their scenes together - a way of
touching, tones of voice, etc. - plus the way Campion found to film
them, "imprinted" something we never saw before, rather than
externalizing pre-defined feelings that the characters were supposed
to be expressing. It's another way of looking at the question.
It can apply to screenwriting, too - to any kind of writing. When I
sit down to write something that means something to me, there isn't
an idea already there that I'm going to transfer to paper; the idea
emerges as I put the words down.
With regard to Hitchcock, it would be interesting to see where his
very 18th Century idea of "filming thought" gives way to the creation
of thoughts on screen that the filmmaker himself didn't think until
he had put them there - or maybe never thought apart from the act of
filming. There's a long series of discussions and decisions in
various parts of the archives concerning when Melanie in The Birds
writes and later tears up her card to Mitch, what she does with it
after writing it (Hedren suggested that she'd put it in her purse)
etc. I want to analyze that series of decisions some day when I've
had a chance to talk to Hedren about them. I think those shots, and
the long process of arriving at them, are an example of "imprinting."
Sorry I can't be more explicit about "what," but obviously it has to
do with the meaning of her trip to Bodega Bay with the birds, the
card, putting them in the cottage, what the card says, the symbolism
of the birds, etc.
4445
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:47am
Subject: Re: Re: Directing actors
> Dan, another myth shattered? Nothing like making movies yourself to
> raise those questions.
I started out just telling people what I wanted (even acting it out for
them in my student days - but I later found out that I wasn't as good an
actor as I thought). Over the years, from reading on the subject and
talking to actors, I realized that I would not be considered an actor's
director until I stopped telling actors what I wanted to see, and
started letting them explore from a baseline situation. But I could
never manage to get a performance that I wanted that way, and eventually
I gave up and went back to telling the actors whatever seemed meaningful
to me. Most experienced actors are used to translating director talk
into actor talk, anyway.
> One hears a lot about laissez-faire direction
> of actors, often attributed to major figures.
Yeah, one certainly does. That's not being an "actor's director"
either, of course - it's just another strategy to get what the director
wants. It's always amazing how the directors you hear this about manage
to get distinctive performances.
> The transcribed discussions with Hedren, one of which is
> reproduced in Dan Auiler's Hitchcock's Notebooks, certainly show him
> giving an inexperienced actress who was going to carry a whole film
> explicit, shot-by-shot direction before the shooting started.
Lubitsch was known for acting parts out for actors, and the films give
that impression. Maybe Cukor did the same - there's a distinctive Cukor
acting moment, where the actor interrupts a flight of ecstasy to smile
self-consciously at his or her own emotionality, then goes back into the
dream. I used to think Hartley told his actors how to read, but
apparently it's not the case - it seems that there's only one way to
read the dialogue he writes. Maybe someday you'll all be ready to hear
about the distinctive acting style in Jean Negulesco's films....
Then there are some Pantheon/Far Side directors (Walsh, Lang) who give
me a little trouble because I feel that they are too ready to accept
conventional acting. Many disagree with me, so this may be an issue of
the directors caring about aspects of acting that I don't notice, and
vice versa. - Dan
4446
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:56am
Subject: Re: Re: In the Cut
> Apparently that's Bleecker
> Street. Has it really gotten that wild and wooly, New York members?
Not at all. The film's expressionist tendencies are such that you can't
recognize any of the locations in it, even if you live on the exact street.
I felt both good and bad things about the film. In a way I think
Campion saved the movie by playing down Ryan's fear of the palpable
violence around her: it slanted the movie away from thriller territory
and toward a dreamlike psychology. - Dan
4447
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:59am
Subject: Bertolucci
> Some of the sexist
> moments in movies, I find, come about when the
> filmmaker isn't pushing it.
Sexist or sexiest?
> And
> Bertolucci isn't far behind in (the very underrated)
> "The Sheltering Sky."
Yeah, I like this one too, and I'm not always a Bertolucci fan. The
other one I make a case for is LA LUNA, which is probably even a weirder
favorite. - Dan
4448
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:40am
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
can one think of something that cannot be expressed
> cinematically?
>
I don't think a film can convincingly express the view that George W.
Bush is a good, decent man, or that Cheney and his cohorts are not
forces of evil in the world.
4449
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:16am
Subject: Re: Lock in
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
Earliest (?) and most famous female lock in: Gish in the closet in
BROKEN BLOSSOMS. Locks herself in to hide from her abusive father. He
breaks down the door and beats her to death. Griffith's Victorian
sadism at its most intense.
JPC
What a great topic. The "Locking In" is such a great cinematic and
narrative device to establish false sensation of safety and then
release the danger. What would horror be without it.
The earliest "lock in" I can think of is around 1905? (I can't recall
the title) where, with one of the earliest examples of cross cuttings,
a woman is trapped in her appartment with the building on fire and the
rescue of her by the firemen. But "Broken Blossoms" is the best and
involves the most famous female.
Two "lock in" that breaks the rules and are truly great:
- The final 5 minutes of "Spoorloos"
- The "I thought you were a buglar" sequences in "Springtime for
Hitler"
Henrik
4450
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Directing actors
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > One hears a lot about laissez-faire direction
> > of actors, often attributed to major figures.
I heard Shirley MacLaine talk about Minnelli the other day on TCM and
she claimed that he didn't say much to her on SOME CAME RUNNING. She
said that he directed the furniture -- standard comment made about
him. There's that fairly recent Rivette interview in which he
complains that Minnelli neglects the actor and that in RUNNING
Minnelli has "three great actors" who are "working in a void" because
the director isn't paying any attention to them. (If anybody's
interested, I respond to these claims in a piece on RUNNING in a new
online film journal called 16x9.)
But Martha Hyer says that on RUNNING Minnelli carefully directed her
every step of the way, that every gesture and line reading was
controlled. And when I heard Dolores Gray speak in New York about
ten years ago she said that on D. WOMAN everything she did was not
only carefully directed but "choreographed." Ellen Burstyn later
complained about being directed by Minnelli in this way on GOODBYE
CHARLIE, in which he gave her line readings. Tony Curtis said that
only Kubrick was as strong and controlling on the set as Minnelli.
The only other director I know of in which you find this enormous
contradiction in terms of actors' anecdotes is Hitchcock. What this
suggests is that both directors understood that there are some actors
who work best under loose conditions and with minimal direction and
there are others who require a great deal of it.
At any rate, it is quite obvious that there is no proper way to
direct actors and that great results can occur through any number of
methods, from the director exercising extreme control (Sternberg,
Mizoguchi)to relative looseness and improvisation -- Cassavetes is
the standard name invoked here although I think he controls and
manipulates his actors as much as Sternberg.
> Lubitsch was known for acting parts out for actors, and the films
>give that impression. Maybe Cukor did the same - there's a
>distinctive Cukor acting moment, where the actor interrupts a flight
>of ecstasy to smile self-consciously at his or her own emotionality,
>then goes back into the dream.
Fascinating observation about Cukor, Dan. Can you give some
examples? I don't agree with you in terms of GIRLS ABOUT TOWN,
though, which I think is the best of the pre-LITTLE WOMEN/DINNER AT
EIGHT Cukors.
>Maybe someday you'll all be ready to hear about the distinctive
acting style in Jean Negulesco's films....
As long as you talk about the moment when Ida Lupino slaps Cornel
Wilde in ROAD HOUSE and says, "Silly boy."
> Then there are some Pantheon/Far Side directors (Walsh, Lang) who
>give me a little trouble because I feel that they are too ready to
>accept conventional acting. Many disagree with me, so this may be
>an issue of the directors caring about aspects of acting that I
>don't notice, and vice versa. - Dan
Uh, I think I disagree with you here because I love the performances
in the films of both directors. But I'm not sure what you mean
by "conventional acting" in films like ME AND MY GAL, M, THE MAN I
LOVE, SCARLET STREET, etc.
4451
From: George Robinson
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:04pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
Orson Welles once said -- I believe it was in an interview with Dick
Cavett -- that the two things he never believed when they were depicted on
film were sex and prayer. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the
former but I think he may have been right about the latter, with a very,
very few exceptions (Bresson is the only one that comes to mind
immediately).
I would also add that the creative process generally doesn't lend itself to
filming again with a few notable exceptions. I've always loved the way
Minnelli films Van Gogh at work in "Lust for Life," concentrating on the
physical rather than metaphysical nature of inspiration.
George (praying to be creative) Robinson
The man who does not read good books
has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
--Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ehrenstein"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] can one think of something that cannot be expressed
cinematically?
4452
From: George Robinson
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lock in
I'm not sure this quite what you have in mind, but how about the "battle"
scene in Duck Soup, when Harpo gets locked in the closet with the fireworks?
On a more serious note, the family trapped by the burglars in Griffith's
"The Lonely Villa," sort of The Panic Room avant la lettre. Only a lot
shorter and better.
g
The man who does not read good books
has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
--Mark Twain
4453
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Bertolucci
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Some of the sexist
> > moments in movies, I find, come about when the
> > filmmaker isn't pushing it.
>
> Sexist or sexiest?
>
Sexiest. When they're pushing it's sexist.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
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4454
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:02pm
Subject: Re: Directing actors
An actor with a small part in Man Who Knew Too Much told a friend of
mine who intrviewed him that Hitchcock was "clinical" and avoided any
contact with the actors. Then I found a shot of Hitchcock working
closely with THAT ACTOR, showing him how to throw a punch. Reproduced
in Hitchck at Work. But I couldn't get a copy of the one I wanted for
a point about storyboards printed in time: AH drawing (for the
photographer) a storyboard on the set of Dial M, with clouds in it.
4455
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:36pm
Subject: Re: Lock in
It would be interesting to trace the theme through the history of
early film; unfortunately the AFI Catalog's Subject Index doesn't
help. They don't seem to have a word for the "lock in" situation
(maybe this group has just coined it!) The list of subjects for
BROKEN BLOSSOMS include Battered children, Father-daughter
relationship, Murder, but nothing related to the closet scene. (they
do have "Emprisonment" with hundreds of titles for the 1911-20
period, but that's something else).
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> Earliest (?) and most famous female lock in: Gish in the closet in
> BROKEN BLOSSOMS. Locks herself in to hide from her abusive father.
He
> breaks down the door and beats her to death. Griffith's Victorian
> sadism at its most intense.
> JPC
>
> What a great topic. The "Locking In" is such a great cinematic and
> narrative device to establish false sensation of safety and then
> release the danger. What would horror be without it.
>
> The earliest "lock in" I can think of is around 1905? (I can't
recall
> the title) where, with one of the earliest examples of cross
cuttings,
> a woman is trapped in her appartment with the building on fire and
the
> rescue of her by the firemen. But "Broken Blossoms" is the best and
> involves the most famous female.
>
> Two "lock in" that breaks the rules and are truly great:
>
> - The final 5 minutes of "Spoorloos"
> - The "I thought you were a buglar" sequences in "Springtime for
> Hitler"
>
> Henrik
4456
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:15pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
The responses to Elizabeth's question have thus far been responses to
the title of her post rather than to the actual question which refers
to the "cinematic expression of relationships."
Of course there are almost countless things that cannot be expressed
cinematically, or only inadequately. This applies in general as well
as to the area of "relationships". Ruiz made an absolute masterpiece
out of Proust, yet his film barely touches the psychological wealth
of Proust's scrutiny of feelings and emotions in his analyses of
relationships.
What a really good movie does is, through direction and acting, to
involve the spectators in such a way that they bring their own
experience and emotions to the depicted situation and supply what
cannot be "shown" cinematically. This is what happens (to take very
different, random exemples,)in "Voyage in Italy" between Bergman and
Sanders,in "Night Moves" between Gene Hackman and Susan Clark (also
Jennifer Warren), in the closing scenes of "Splendor in the Grass",
or most recently in "Lost in Translation" (Murray and Johansson).
Also I would agree with Welles that sex and praying, although
frequently represented (ie., simulated) on screen are never
convincing. And with David that artistic creativity is very hard to
depict convincingly (but it's just as hard in fiction, say.)
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> I was musing to myself the cinematic expression of relationships
> between men and women, having seen STROMBOLI and EL.
>
> It was just part of my personal exercise in visual screenwriting
but it
> seems to have taken a life of its own.
>
> Certainly there are lots of cinematic expressions of
> relationships...but can one think of something that cannot be
expressed
> cinematically?
>
>
>
> > Message: 21
> > Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:45:32 -0000
> > From: "hotlove666"
> > Subject: Lock in
> >
> > And the time Lucy got locked in the deep freeze...
> >
> > Anyone want to tell me we where we're going with this?
4457
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:43pm
Subject: just skimmed the surface of film
As I have mentioned, I am a real novice in cinema, but learning daily.
I've always been willing to share my thoughts and appreciate your
comments in response. I especially benefit from discussions of films
I've actually seen. I'm rather eclectic in my viewing as I try to see
not only the mainstream Hollywood stuff but also whatever otherwise is
available in SD. I attend a few small film festivals, venture to LA
and going this week to Palm Springs to see
CALENDAR GIRLS
IN AMERICA
THE FOG OF WAR
MONSTER
TRIPLETS OF BELLEVILLE
HOUSE OF SAND AND FOG
Films I have seen this week include (there may be others, but no diary
is kept):
This week in theaters I have seen NEW SUIT, EL, DAIRY OF A CHAMBERMAID,
EL PANCHO (?TITLE), DR SEUSS'S CAT IN THE HAT (special preview which I
erroneously selected over TASTE OF CHERRY for personal reasons), EM &
ME, MADAME SATA.
On DVD, I've seen A SUMMER TALE, MAUVAIS SANG
ON TV, I've seen NIGHT AND THE CITY (DASSIN), STEAMBOAT ROUND THE BEND,
DEAD MAN, BOUDA SAVED FROM DROWNING, THE SOUTHERNER, STROMBOLI
(often the TV screen is showing something that catches my eye but I
can't claim to have seen it, like my reference to DRUMS ALONG THE
MOHAWK. Right now I've just caught ROBERT MITCHUM as a doctor being
beaten by CLAUDE RAINS over Faith DOMERGUE, a suicidal patient who has
designs on Mitchum, and he on her, except she is married to an older
rich man, originally thought by Mitchum to be her father. There is a
surreal nature to the 'voiced memories' guiding Mitchum as he askes
Faith: "Are you completely crazy? [guess he was hoping she was a
little crazy, like a little married} ...it will end up a noir story of
a man wronged
The main books I am reading this week are EUGENE VALE'S screenwriting,
screenplay for MILDRED PIERCE and related material, Giannetti's
Understanding Film and various screen writing materials, newspaper and
magazine and internet articles...and, of course, a_film_ by...
I think I have just skimmed the surface of film with this viewing
routine over the last 5 years, often seeing 2 or 3 or 4 films
daily...ready for more in depth study. As long as the pleasure and
interest maintains, I'll be watching at the cinema and it is all in the
service of screenplay writing.
Elizabeth
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 02:51:03 -0000
From: "jpcoursodon"
Subject: PS
As an addition to my previous post: This Group has 91 members and as
far as I know only one woman (Elizabeth) or at least only one who
posts. The overwhelmingly male predominance goes hand in hand with
what Europeans might call an "anglo-saxon" predominance. So be it.
But I for one would like to hear more input from women in this Group.
I suggested one terrific person to Peter but nothing came out of it --
again, so be it. I have another one up my sleeve, so to speak, but
maybe the group prefers the status quo...
JPC
4458
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:54pm
Subject: Re: just skimmed the surface of film
> Right now I've just caught ROBERT MITCHUM as a doctor being
> beaten by CLAUDE RAINS over Faith DOMERGUE, a suicidal patient who has
> designs on Mitchum, and he on her, except she is married to an older
> rich man, originally thought by Mitchum to be her father. There is a
> surreal nature to the 'voiced memories' guiding Mitchum as he askes
> Faith: "Are you completely crazy? [guess he was hoping she was a
> little crazy, like a little married} ...it will end up a noir story of
> a man wronged
That's Farrow's WHERE DANGER LIVES. I didn't really enjoy it, but it
has defenders, including David Thomson. - Dan
4459
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lock in
Major lock-in: Joan Collins in "Land of the Pharoahs"
--- jpcoursodon
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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4460
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Lock-in
David wrote: "Major lock-in: Joan Collins at the end of Land of the
Pharaohs"
Which is a physical replay of the scene where Barrymore tricks
Lombard, as a "last wish" before he supposedly dies, into
signing the contract that will bind her to him forever while his two
stooges look on knowingly. After floundering during filming about
how he was going to end "Land," Hawks came up with the
solution, unconsciously (?) harking back to the ending of
Twentieth Century: As the eunuchs look on knowingly, Collins
carries out her dead husband's last wish by pulling the rope that
will (unknown to her) seal her and them in the tomb with Jack
Hawkins' body.
Pretty slick!
4461
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:24pm
Subject: Re: just skimmed the surface of film
It's fascinating getting a peek at what Elizabeth and Tristan are
doing, seeing 3-5 films a day to play "ketchup." I wonder if they
understand this is what we all did after becoming cinephiles. In
the days before home video, this meant watching a lot of tv and
living somewhere like NY where you could see stuff theatrically,
or at special venues like Roger and Howard's apartment. Once I
knew what I wanted and had Sarris in hand as a guide, I saw
3-5 a day for several years, while teaching at Hunter and making
ultimately futile efforts to complete my PhD in English. (I still have
dreams about the falsity of that other career and my sense of
total inadequacy to it - I had one last night, as a matter of fact:
racing to bonehead English class I'm teaching, late, unprepared,
having forgotten where it is...)
I saw maybe 40 minutes of Cat in the Hat last night, ER - it
majorly sucked, so I snuck in to Looney Tunes next door. I and
the 6 other spectators applauded at the end, which is exactly
what it was like opening night in Westwood. DON'T MISS IT. This
is what it used to be like going to see Godard films.
4462
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:25pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley" wrote:
> Certainly the cinema is a medium most suited for examining external
> phenomena rather than private (internal) moments;
Why ? Don't you think the medium of cinema can emulate the thought process ?
Actually I think it can BE a thought process.
I guess I have a problem with "most suited" - maybe it's "most suited" to "cops and
robbers", "cowboys and Indians" fine with me I guess but so what. Even if I were to
admit it was "less suited" to what Stan Brakhage did, what Hou Hsiao-hsien does, in
that there is all the more the artistry.
>. I think that, when other media express
> relationships, they do so "cinematically."
Doesn't this in some sense contradict what you just said, or am I misinterpreting ?
-Sam
4463
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:35pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson" wrote:
> I would also add that the creative process generally doesn't lend itself to
> filming again with a few notable exceptions. I've always loved the way
> Minnelli films Van Gogh at work in "Lust for Life," concentrating on the
> physical rather than metaphysical nature of inspiration.
Perhaps my favourite dramatic film about artistic labor as it were - The Chronicle of
Anna Magdalena Bach, although that film is not so much one of the metaphysical or
physical but an attempt to question and resist those divisions... in the context of
the musical labor so to speak as in relationship to what we might call economies of
art.
For me though, Dog Star Man is the paramount ( :) film of creative process.
-Sam
4464
From: jerome_gerber
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Lock-in
That pyramid reminded me of the Monty Woolley lock in of Ann Sheridan
in
The Man Who Came Dinner...and the lock in of Murdoch Glorie (Robert
Donat) in Clair's The Ghost Goes West...not to forget Charles
Laughton in
The Canterville Ghost.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> David wrote: "Major lock-in: Joan Collins at the end of Land of the
> Pharaohs"
>
> Which is a physical replay of the scene where Barrymore tricks
> Lombard, as a "last wish" before he supposedly dies, into
> signing the contract that will bind her to him forever while his
two
> stooges look on knowingly. After floundering during filming about
> how he was going to end "Land," Hawks came up with the
> solution, unconsciously (?) harking back to the ending of
> Twentieth Century: As the eunuchs look on knowingly, Collins
> carries out her dead husband's last wish by pulling the rope that
> will (unknown to her) seal her and them in the tomb with Jack
> Hawkins' body.
>
> Pretty slick!
4465
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:48pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject, and I like them very
much. I have no wish to "lay down the law" on these matters, even if
I was smart enough to do so. So don't take my contribution as Jaime
telling you what's what with the cinema.
Thanks
-Jaime
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> > Certainly the cinema is a medium most suited for examining
external
> > phenomena rather than private (internal) moments;
>
> Why ? Don't you think the medium of cinema can emulate the thought
process ?
>
> Actually I think it can BE a thought process.
>
> I guess I have a problem with "most suited" - maybe it's "most
suited" to "cops and
> robbers", "cowboys and Indians" fine with me I guess but so what.
Even if I were to
> admit it was "less suited" to what Stan Brakhage did, what Hou
Hsiao-hsien does, in
> that there is all the more the artistry.
>
>
> >. I think that, when other media express
> > relationships, they do so "cinematically."
>
> Doesn't this in some sense contradict what you just said, or am I
misinterpreting ?
>
> -Sam
4466
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley" wrote:
> So don't take my contribution as Jaime
> telling you what's what with the cinema.
No no not at all !
Just wanted to make sure I knew what you were getting at with:
> > >. I think that, when other media express
> > > relationships, they do so "cinematically."
Could we say cinema can make the private public whereas the novel let's say can
make the public private ? ;-)
-Sam
4467
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Expression
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> But there are directors who work with actors to
> discover something. It doesn't have to be method-y and Cassavetian,
> either - Renoir used to make actors repeate lines as if they were
> reading the phone book till the real feeling emerged by itself.
Along the same lines as my replies to Jamie re thought process, one thing that
intrigues me about Wong Kar-wai's films is the way, in Chungking Express in
particular, in which Chris Doyle moves with the camera in relation to what, not
simply the actors but the characters themselves seem to be, or might be,
thinking....
I love that kind of dance.
-Sam
4468
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:22pm
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
> Could we say cinema can make the private public whereas the novel
let's say can
> make the public private ? ;-)
That's kind of what I was getting at - I think I read some theorist
or critic who pointed out that the 20th century novel, often in
response to the appearance and development of the cinema, would
frequently utilize cinematic effects and modes, etc. in a way that
was "better" than what the cinema had done thus far. And in turn the
filmmakers would advance *their* medium after seeing how well the
novel could be "like" the cinema. Also Eisenstein observed how much
Griffith montage owed to Dickens.
Setting aside for a moment the exceptions and the examples of films
and other works that bleed through the porous membranes that
supposedly separate the different art forms, or combine them, it
seems obvious that MOST films happen in front of us, they activate
the voyeur. Films require the audience to envision offscreen or
inbetween-cuts space/events in order to "work" - and this is seen in
films as varied as Shaw Bros. martial arts films to almost every
Bresson movie. But I wouldn't say that this phenomena takes place in
our private personal heads; we project this space onto the
overall "text" (looks over shoulder) as part of the basic in-front-of-
us experience.
I guess what I'm getting at is the layer of experience that we most
often talk about cinema having is the one that involves second-hand
experiences, vicarious experiences, and this is great because we can
observe things like relationships (between people, people and
objects, between objects, between spaces, between people and spaces,
etc etc etc etc). The novel tends to be an internalized experience,
reading the book puts the book *in* us, and we create all of the mise-
en-scene that the author tells us is there. If that makes sense.
Kubelka's ARNULF RAINER is a film that happens *to* us far more than
it happens in front of us (what do you think, Fred?), so we're back
to the exceptions, the "mutant films" as Brent suggested calling
them. IRREVERSIBLE is a film that dissolves the distinction between
spectacle and, I dunno, what ever the opposite of spectacle is.
Finally, don't believe any of this. There are always exceptions and
films that turn these declarations into shit.
:)
-Jaime
4469
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Lock-in
Discussed mental "lock in" today with some friends and came upon two
great allegories on entrapment of the human mind.
"The Truman Show" and "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest"
4470
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:31pm
Subject: Re: Expression
There's a bad book on "Literature and Telepathy," but there's
good work to be done, IMO, on the analogies between reading a
novel and entering into telepathic contact with the author and the
characters. Freud was interested in the possibility of telepathy -
obviously, it could play a role in psychoanalysis - and Derrida
has written at length on the question as raised by Freud, in an
article called "Telepathy." Are there analogies between telepathy
and watching a movie?
4471
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:41pm
Subject: Re: just skimmed the surface of film
It amazes me when I talk with people supposedly seriously interested in
film, how little they have seen, and today, there is little excuse to
not make the effort. At least, there is the possibility of seeing
stuff on DVD...the problem is the terrible time commitment. A single
movie and reading can take 5-10 hours, if not more. And if you want to
study it intently...well, you know well how long... weeks. And there
is new stuff (albeit, perhaps not too good) coming out daily. ( I
have met at least one student reviewer who had never seen CITIZEN KANE,
but gets into all the local free critic screenings because he is a
reviewer).
I approach my study of film with the same immersion as other academic
studies, though not as well organized just yet. It's been what is
available and present here in SD and at festivals and then following up
interests, as well as on a need to learn about basis.
While I want to know something of the breath and depth of film, I also
know my personal interest will emerge. I like my background at this
point. I was at CINEVEGAS 2003 where Dennis Hopper was showing his THE
LAST MOVIE; I suggested he might want to see THE WICKER MAN as it came
to mind while viewing his THE LAST MOVIE. He had never heard of it. I
was at SDIFF and saw a screening of I AM DAVID and spoke with the
director about COME AND SEE. His first response was "No one has ever
seen COME AND SEE!" Well, I have -- because of my interest in children
acting, especially ones that have been hypnotized!
I most grateful for both DVD's and TiVo...today I hope to get to
CRUISING (on TiVo), and later THE LAST SAMURAI in the theater.
> From:
> "hotlove666"
> Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:24 am
> Subject: Re: just skimmed the surface of film
>
> It's fascinating getting a peek at what Elizabeth and Tristan are
> doing, seeing 3-5 films a day to play "ketchup." I wonder if they
> understand this is what we all did after becoming cinephiles. In
> the days before home video, this meant watching a lot of tv and
> living somewhere like NY where you could see stuff theatrically,
> or at special venues like Roger and Howard's apartment. Once I
> knew what I wanted and had Sarris in hand as a guide, I saw
> 3-5 a day for several years, while teaching at Hunter and making
> ultimately futile efforts to complete my PhD in English. (I still have
> dreams about the falsity of that other career and my sense of
> total inadequacy to it - I had one last night, as a matter of fact:
> racing to bonehead English class I'm teaching, late, unprepared,
> having forgotten where it is...)
>
> I saw maybe 40 minutes of Cat in the Hat last night, ER - it
> majorly sucked, so I snuck in to Looney Tunes next door. I and
> the 6 other spectators applauded at the end, which is exactly
> what it was like opening night in Westwood. DON'T MISS IT. This
> is what it used to be like going to see Godard films.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4472
From: George Robinson
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
Oh yeah! "Anna Magdalena Bach" is a terrific example of how to film the
creative process. Also many of the late Rossellini's handle that quite
nicely (Pascal, the three-parter on Bernini).
g
The man who does not read good books
has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
--Mark Twain
4473
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
charulata by satyajit ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Robinson"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: can one think of something that cannot be
expressed cinematically?
> Oh yeah! "Anna Magdalena Bach" is a terrific example of how to film the
> creative process. Also many of the late Rossellini's handle that quite
> nicely (Pascal, the three-parter on Bernini).
>
> g
>
>
> The man who does not read good books
> has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
> --Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
4474
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Can one think of something that can't be "expressed" cinematically?
Waltzes from Vienna
From: "Ruy Gardnier"
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: can one think of something that
cannot be expressed cinematically?
charulata by satyajit ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Robinson"
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: can one think of something that
cannot be
expressed cinematically?
> Oh yeah! "Anna Magdalena Bach" is a terrific example of how to
film the
> creative process. Also many of the late Rossellini's handle that
quite
> nicely (Pascal, the three-parter on Bernini).
>
> g
>
>
> The man who does not read good books
> has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
> --Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is s
4475
From: filipefurtado
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
eosselini's decartes
rivette's la belle noiseuse
Filipe
> charulata by satyajit ray
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Robinson"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: can one think of something that
cannot be
> expressed cinematically?
>
>
> > Oh yeah! "Anna Magdalena Bach" is a terrific example of ho
w to film the
> > creative process. Also many of the late Rossellini's handl
e that quite
> > nicely (Pascal, the three-parter on Bernini).
> >
> > g
> >
> >
> > The man who does not read good books
> > has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.
> > --Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.
com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
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4476
From: filipefurtado
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Directors who get good
>a Robert Rossen coming up with a completely unexpected master
piece at the last minute ("Lillith") after a very so-
so career.
Actually Rossen start really well in the 40's, then he gets
very uneven in the 50's and comes back in his latefilms.
Filipe
>
> Peter
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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4477
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:28pm
Subject: Re: just skimmed the surface of film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> It's fascinating getting a peek at what Elizabeth and Tristan are
> doing, seeing 3-5 films a day to play "ketchup." I wonder if they
> understand this is what we all did after becoming cinephiles. In
> the days before home video, this meant watching a lot of tv and
> living somewhere like NY where you could see stuff theatrically,
> or at special venues like Roger and Howard's apartment.
I sometimes envy young cinephiles who have easy access to so many
more films than I did when I was young, through cable TV, video and
DVD and repertory programming. The last of these has dwindled some
over the last couple of decades but at least in a city like New York
there's still quite a bit out there and the overall quality of
prints and projections seems higher than when I first arrived in New
York in 1978. When I was growing up in Ohio, New York was always
this mythical space of unlimited access to films and I used to read
the Village Voice listings all the time and imagine a typical day of
just absorbing all of this cinema. Reality hit me in the face the
first week I got to NYC and went to the Thalia to see PARTY GIRL and
they showed it in a scanned 16mm. print. I got a refund.
Seeing films on television in New York in those pre-VCR, pre-TiVo
days was often a matter of setting your alarm for 2 a.m. to catch
viewings of things that no one ever seemed to revive -- like SUSAN
AND GOD or A WOMAN'S FACE -- making a pot of coffee and forcing
yourself to stay awake. So I suppose access to films is easier for
young cinephiles but perhaps the sense of pilgrimage and of
suffering for the need to view something has lessened somewhat.
Howard and Roger were already a thing of the past when I got here
but I later became friends with both of them and heard various
stories about these screenings of theirs, including the night Teri
Garr came to see THE BLUE GARDENIA. Howard told me once about
calling the Theatre 80 St. Mark's (which specialized in showing
musicals) when they first opened to find out if they were showing
a 'scope print of LES GIRLS. The manager said, "No, we're showing
it in this new process where they pick out the best parts of the
image for you."
4478
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:33pm
Subject: skimming the surface
George, et al: Roger and Howard deserve their own star on
Hollywood Boulevard, with a projector symbol embossed in it.
BTW, I experienced a comparable letdown during my first
prolonged visit to Paris, when I saw how atrocious prints and
projection were there. The worst: seeing American Graffiti one
homesick evening projected on a HEXAGONAL screen.
4479
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Directing actors
>>Maybe Cukor did the same - there's a
>>distinctive Cukor acting moment, where the actor interrupts a flight
>>of ecstasy to smile self-consciously at his or her own emotionality,
>>then goes back into the dream.
>
> Fascinating observation about Cukor, Dan. Can you give some
> examples? I don't agree with you in terms of GIRLS ABOUT TOWN,
> though, which I think is the best of the pre-LITTLE WOMEN/DINNER AT
> EIGHT Cukors.
Bill recently praised it too. I'll check it out again at the first
opportunity.
Wish I had some good examples of Cukor acting at the tips of my fingers.
Katharine Hepburn was in that mode almost all the time, mixing rapture
and self-consciousness - her New Year's Eve scene with Cary Grant in
HOLIDAY would be a good place to look for what I'm talking about.
> Uh, I think I disagree with you here because I love the performances
> in the films of both directors. But I'm not sure what you mean
> by "conventional acting" in films like ME AND MY GAL, M, THE MAN I
> LOVE, SCARLET STREET, etc.
I dunno, it's hard to talk about conventions, coz it often just means
that the person talking didn't pick up on anything that interested him
or her. I feel as if a lot of the acting in Walsh and American-period
Lang is standard-issue Hollywood stuff, making the storytelling clearer
instead of throwing us any curves. It's not an across-the-board thing,
but it's gotten in my way on many occasions. - Dan
4480
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:49pm
Subject: Help please
By chance I discovered that RTL (cabel or filmnet) showed "Kanashii
kibun de joke" by Masaharu Segawa the 14th November 2003.
Since one of the leading characters is played by Takeshi, we are
several obsessed fans who almost resemble Golum about the prospect of
someone who may have recorded it or may have it.
The film is virtually impossible to get ones hands on, so did any of
our European members tape it or know someone who did or many have.
"Kanashii kibun de joke"
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0365404/
Thank you all in advance
Henrik
4481
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:01am
Subject: Re: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
Ruiz made an
> absolute masterpiece
> out of Proust, yet his film barely touches the
> psychological wealth
> of Proust's scrutiny of feelings and emotions in his
> analyses of
> relationships.
Well that's REALLY hard to do. I think film can only
do that fleetingly. Visconti hits it in "The Leopard"
and "Conversation Piece," and Chereau in "Those Who
Love Me Can Take the Train."
Percy Adalon's "Celeste" is a really good Proust
movie, and while Schondorff's "Swann in Love" is a
botch overall, Delon is a great Charlus and Ornella
Muti an ideal Odette. I love Henze's score too.
__________________________________
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4482
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:34am
Subject: film and the creative process
Just after I wrote this morning that I agreed that film was not good
at describing the creative process I was reminded of a monumental
exception, and one of my favorite films: Victor Erice's El Sol del
membrillo. However, to reach this level of insight into an artist's
(here a painter) process, the filmmaker has to discard, as Erice did,
plot and drama and focus entirely on the artist's work.
La Belle Noiseuse doesn't go that far but is still another awsome
exception.
JPC
4483
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:35am
Subject: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
the only true Proustian moment in cvinema occurs in My
Kingdom For, Budd Boetticher's last film - an essay film about
his life training Lusitanos in Ramona: Watching video footrage of
Carlos Arruza Jr. doing a particular move on horseback with the
wheeled "bull" they used at Ramona, he realized he had filmed
Carlos Sr. fdoiung exactly the ame move in exactly the same way
twenty years earlier. And because Budd, like Bresson, believed
that there is only one angle from which an action in a bullfight
can be filmed, he had filmed both moves from the same angle.
So he cutsf rom oine to the other in the film, while his voiceover
comments on what he's feeling.
4484
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:56am
Subject: TamTam
Very cool website, Tosh.
I Spit On Your Graves is especially intriguing to me, and I hope to
get to it as soon as I whittle down the huge backlog of books I have
waiting to be read.
Are you planning on publishing any film-oriented works?
As a Francophile, I'll be looking forward to seeing what else TamTam
releases.
-- Damien
4485
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:01am
Subject: Re: can one think of something that cannot be expressed cinematically?
Proustian in the sense that it's sort of like Proust's narrator
stumbling on the uneven cobblestones in the Guermantes courtyard,
which generates a huge feeling of happiness and brings back the
memory of Venice, which in turn leads to the insight that time has
been abolished. This the the insight (at the very end of the book)
that triggers the narrator/author's realization that he has a work to
do -- which will be the very book we're finally coming to the end of!
Budd retrieving those shots filmed twenty years earlier and matching
them to the new ones must have experienced a similar feeling. But his
work was done and sealed.
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> the only true Proustian moment in cvinema occurs in My
> Kingdom For, Budd Boetticher's last film - an essay film about
> his life training Lusitanos in Ramona: Watching video footrage of
> Carlos Arruza Jr. doing a particular move on horseback with the
> wheeled "bull" they used at Ramona, he realized he had filmed
> Carlos Sr. fdoiung exactly the ame move in exactly the same way
> twenty years earlier. And because Budd, like Bresson, believed
> that there is only one angle from which an action in a bullfight
> can be filmed, he had filmed both moves from the same angle.
> So he cutsf rom oine to the other in the film, while his voiceover
> comments on what he's feeling.
4486
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:03am
Subject: Re: Varia
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> My Dad once watched a whole hyped movie in the 1960's on TV to see
Bardot -
> only to have her appear for just 2 minutes and be 20th billed. Boy,
was he
> ticked off!
>
The New York radio personality Jonathan Schwartz tells a story of
being in a bookstore as a teenage boy and seeing a high priced, slick-
looking coffee table book simply called "Bardot." It was in shrink
wrap so he couldn't leaf through it. He saved his money and
eventually had enough to make the purchase. Eagerly running home,
he went to his bedroom and his adolescent hands eagerly ripped off
the wrap and opened the book . . . only to find that it consisted of
pictures of some woman named Babette Bardot.
-- Damien
4487
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:22am
Subject: Re: Cukor and Emotion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> there's a distinctive Cukor acting moment, where the actor
interrupts a flight of ecstasy to smile self-consciously at his or
her own emotionality, then goes back into the dream.
> >
> > Fascinating observation about Cukor, Dan. Can you give some
> > examples?
>
> Wish I had some good examples of Cukor acting at the tips of my
>fingers. Katharine Hepburn was in that mode almost all the time,
>mixing rapture and self-consciousness - her New Year's Eve scene
>with Cary Grant in HOLIDAY would be a good place to look for what
>I'm talking about.
Dan, you could probably argue that the entire structure of something
like ADAM'S RIB (and I cite this film only because its scenario is
so schematic and self-conscious)is based upon people acting out an
emotion of great intensity and then quickly stepping back from that
emotion, turning it into something comic. Often for Cukor melodrama
and comedy are not distinct states but exist within the same
emotional breath, an attitude which brings him closer to someone
like Renoir than to other great American comic directors of Cukor's
generation like McCarey or La Cava who likewise mix melodrama and
comedy but often as though they are two very different modes
alternating within a single film: UNFINISHED BUSINESS, STAGE DOOR,
BELLS OF ST. MARY'S, LOVE AFFAIR.
I believe most of us would agree that one of Cukor's greatest
sequences is "The Man That Got Away" from A STAR IS BORN. Garland's
vocal apart from the image is enormously dramatic and emotional.
But in the sequence itself her facial expressions and body language
are quite playful and even comic at times, as though she is winking
at her own intensity. (She even literally winks at the end of the
number and laughs.) It's a quintessential Cukor moment, I think.
Joe
4488
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:51am
Subject: Re: Varia
Yes, there was Bardotmania in those distant far far away years.
But who remembers or cares about Bardot now? (or for that matter
about Theda Bara)? But as the poet said, "Where are the snows of
yesteryear?" (les neiges d'antan, for francophiles).
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > My Dad once watched a whole hyped movie in the 1960's on TV to
see
> Bardot -
> > only to have her appear for just 2 minutes and be 20th billed.
Boy,
> was he
> > ticked off!
> >
>
> The New York radio personality Jonathan Schwartz tells a story of
> being in a bookstore as a teenage boy and seeing a high priced,
slick-
> looking coffee table book simply called "Bardot." It was in shrink
> wrap so he couldn't leaf through it. He saved his money and
> eventually had enough to make the purchase. Eagerly running home,
> he went to his bedroom and his adolescent hands eagerly ripped off
> the wrap and opened the book . . . only to find that it consisted
of
> pictures of some woman named Babette Bardot.
>
> -- Damien
4489
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:59am
Subject: Re: film and the creative process / PICASSO paintings
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> Just after I wrote this morning that I agreed that film was not good
> at describing the creative process I was reminded of a monumental
> exception, and one of my favorite films: Victor Erice's El Sol del
> membrillo. However, to reach this level of insight into an artist's
> (here a painter) process, the filmmaker has to discard, as Erice did,
> plot and drama and focus entirely on the artist's work.
>
> La Belle Noiseuse doesn't go that far but is still another awsome
> exception.
> JPC
I saw a 'documentary' in which Picasso is painting on something like a glass
surface that is backlit but even something more as when he paints over the
paint (as he often did in this work), you can still see what he is painting anew.
It is always interesting to watch a sketch artist bring a image to completion,
and even more so to go back and watch it on camera knowing what each line
will become. I always wanted to see that PICASSO film and run it backwards.
4490
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:54am
Subject: Re: film and the creative process / PICASSO paintings
That's Clouzot's 1955 "Le Mystere Picasso". Doesn't come close to
what Erice did but it's still a fascinating endeavor. Even though
it's very much a Picasso "stunt" -- but then again most of what
Picasso was doing in his later years were stunts.
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> > Just after I wrote this morning that I agreed that film was not
good
> > at describing the creative process I was reminded of a monumental
> > exception, and one of my favorite films: Victor Erice's El Sol
del
> > membrillo. However, to reach this level of insight into an
artist's
> > (here a painter) process, the filmmaker has to discard, as Erice
did,
> > plot and drama and focus entirely on the artist's work.
> >
> > La Belle Noiseuse doesn't go that far but is still another awsome
> > exception.
> > JPC
>
> I saw a 'documentary' in which Picasso is painting on something
like a glass
> surface that is backlit but even something more as when he paints
over the
> paint (as he often did in this work), you can still see what he is
painting anew.
> It is always interesting to watch a sketch artist bring a image to
completion,
> and even more so to go back and watch it on camera knowing what
each line
> will become. I always wanted to see that PICASSO film and run it
backwards.
4491
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:11am
Subject: Re: Cukor and Emotion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
> like McCarey or La Cava who likewise mix melodrama and
> .
>
> I believe most of us would agree that one of Cukor's greatest
> sequences is "The Man That Got Away" from A STAR IS BORN.
Garland's
> vocal apart from the image is enormously dramatic and emotional.
> But in the sequence itself her facial expressions and body language
> are quite playful and even comic at times, as though she is winking
> at her own intensity. (She even literally winks at the end of the
> number and laughs.) It's a quintessential Cukor moment, I
think.
>
> Joe
Sometimes the auteurist has to step back in the face of common
sense. Garland did what you are describing here in every film and
every performance (stage or otherwise) I can think of. I doubt very
much that Cukor had anything to do with her "winking at her own
intensity". She winks at the end of the performance and laughs
because she has to sort of apologize to her fellow musicians for her
intensity and she does because the situation is ridiculous: it's an
after-hour jam session between jazz musicians which is treated with
the utmost Hollywood schmaltz (with a big written arrangement!) by a
director who probably had no clue about what such a situation and
such musicians might be or do. And sure it's a great scene and I'll
never tire watching it and it gives me goosebumps everytime but come
on! It's a quintessential Cukor moment, sure, but not for the reason
you imagine. Then again, auteurism makes you free to imagine
anything.
JPC
4492
From:
Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:19pm
Subject: Re: film and the creative process
Here's a real grab bag of films, that have a little to do with this subject.
Many are more "biographies" than direct looks at the creative process.
Mike Grost
The Great Garrick (James Whale, 1937) Comedy about actors.
The Story of Alexander Graham Bell (Irving Cummings, 1939) Biopic of
scientist.
The Magic Alphabet (Jacques Tourneur, 1942) Biopic of scientist (short film).
The Great Moment (Preston Sturges, 1944) Biopic of scientist.
Motion Painting No. 1 (Oskar Fischinger, 1947) Animated look at a creation of
a painting. Delightful.
Savage Messiah (Ken Russell, 1972) Biopic of pioneer modern sculptor.
The Draughtsman's Contract (Peter Greenaway, 1982) Strange story about 1600’s
artist.
Good Morning, Babylon (Taviani Brothers, 1987) Fiction about Italian
sculptors and their life.
Dale Chihuly: Glass Master (Vicki Dunakin, 1987) Documentary about abstract
artist.
Hear My Song (Peter Chelsom, 1991) Music in life.
Theremin: An Electronic Odyssey (Steven M. Martin, 1993) Documentary about
inventor.
Unzipped (Douglas Keeve, 1995) Documentary about fashion designer.
Isamu Noguchi: Stones and Paper (Hiro Narita, 1997) Documentary about
abstract artist.
Contact (Robert Zemeckis, 1997) Scientists hunt for extra-terrestrial life.
Shakespeare in Love (John Madden, 1998) Fiction about Elizabethan theater.
Goya (Carlos Saura, 1999) Fiction about the painter.
Hit and Runway (Christopher Livingston, 1999) Comedy about screenwriters.
Before Night Falls (Julian Schnabel, 2000) Biopic of Cuban poet.
The Impressionists (Bruce Alfred, 2001) Biographical film about the French
Impressionist painters.
Herb Alpert: Music for Your Eyes (Tom Neff, 2002) Documentary about musician
Herb Alpert's abstract paintings and sculptures.
4493
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:15am
Subject: film and theater
The worst big-reputation example of filmed theater is THE MAGIC FLUTE.
The best theater-to-film film that doesn't involve Orson Welles is
GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS. It is 100% filmed theater but also 100% cinema.
A film can be "uncinematic" - let's say it's something like GIVE 'EM
HELL, HARRY (which I haven't seen) and still pleasurable. The
actor's performance is itself a pleasure, if their personality gives
off an electric charge like all great performances do. But there's
something unsatisfying about a movie where the only wonderful thing
is a performance, or a set of performances. I can't see putting such
a film on a list of favorites - probably I would leave it on a sub-
list with the note, "This isn't a very good film but the performances
are delicious (or hilarious, or whatever)"; you can't say that a film
is good simply because a performance is good. You just can't. Can't
can't can't.
I'm being didactic on purpose. I want some challenge to the above.
-Jaime
4494
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:14am
Subject: Re: film and theater
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> The worst big-reputation example of filmed theater is THE MAGIC
FLUTE.
>
> The best theater-to-film film that doesn't involve Orson Welles is
> GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS. It is 100% filmed theater but also 100%
cinema.
>
> A film can be "uncinematic" - let's say it's something like
GIVE 'EM
> HELL, HARRY (which I haven't seen) and still pleasurable. The
> actor's performance is itself a pleasure, if their personality
gives
> off an electric charge like all great performances do. But there's
> something unsatisfying about a movie where the only wonderful thing
> is a performance, or a set of performances. I can't see putting
such
> a film on a list of favorites - probably I would leave it on a sub-
> list with the note, "This isn't a very good film but the
performances
> are delicious (or hilarious, or whatever)"; you can't say that a
film
> is good simply because a performance is good. You just can't.
Can't
> can't can't.
>
> I'm being didactic on purpose. I want some challenge to the above.
>
> -Jaime
Hard to challenge because it's not clear what you're discussing.
You start with filmed theatre then you talk about performances.
Everybody will agree with you that you can't say a film is good just
because the performances are good. So what? As far as "filmed
theatre" is concerned, one might ask, why put down the Bergman and
single out Glengarry Glen Ross (a good play and a good movie,
granted) as the best filmed play ever? Is this 'didactic"? I don't
think so.
What about Resnais's Melo? Would you say it's not as good? It's
certainly 100% theatre and 100% cinema.
JPC
4495
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:18am
Subject: Re: Film and theatre
For the sake of argument's dear self:
Syberberg's Night - Edith Clever reciting Wagner's letters
Nixon's Checkers Speech
Portrait of Jason
Le mystere Picasso
Numero Zero - Eustache filming his grandmother in one shot without
intervening
Fuck (Warhol)
The Jerry Lewis Telethon - any year
I'm trying to think of great films or audiovisual moments centering
on performances. My question, by way of provocation, is: In those
cases where there's clearly a director behind the camera, what did
the director do besides provoking the performance? Or is that enough?
And what about the extreme cases, like Nixon's speech?
Needless to say, there are more conventional films of which it is
said that the star's performance makes an otherwise tawdry exercise
worth watching, and I am always interested to hear about those. But
these examples have a certain purity that may make them useful to
discuss.
4496
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:29am
Subject: Re: film and theater
> You start with filmed theatre then you talk about performances.
Yeah, I realized that after I hit "send." Cursed crossed-motives.
I'm really just taking an argument going on on another forum and
trying to transfer it, somewhat intact, to this one. Ended up
getting my wires crossed.
To make it a bit more clear, it seems that people who care for the
cinema less than the theater, or like them both the same, often argue
against the restrictive language employed at the service of cinematic
specificity. In other words, a person might argue, a film is a
storytelling medium, or that a film is *great* because of the
performances. Acting is very often different in films than in
theater, and writing is very often different in films than in theater
and literature, but I can't imagine a persuasive argument that tries
to put across the notion that film is about good actors and a good
script.
For the record, one of my favorite '30s directors is Sacha Guitry,
who (perhaps half-heartedly, but you wouldn't know it from his tone)
put down the cinema in order to put theater on a pedestal, and whose
films might be considered "uncinematic." I don't think Fred would go
for Guitry except as a divertissement. But the best pleasures to be
had with PEARLS OF THE CROWN, THE STORY OF A CHEAT, and FAISONS UN
REVE are comparable to Howard Hawks verbal comedies like HIS GIRL
FRIDAY and TWENTIETH CENTURY.
-Jaime
4497
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:35am
Subject: Film and the creative process
And then there's Teshigahara Hiroshi who quit filmmaking for several
years in order to become the head of his father's school of ikebana
(flower arrangement.) He was coaxed out of retirement to make a bio
pic on Sen no Rikyu the tea master to comemorate the 400th
anniversary of Rikyu's death. Rikyu was also a calligrapher, flower
arranger, Zen practioner and poet and exercised an enourmous
influence on the arts of pottery and architecture as well. Tea
ceremony involves the arts of calligraphy, flower arrangement,
pottery and of course performance.
Teshigahara's film RIKYU begins with one of Rikyu's most famous
flower arrangement and shows a tea ceremony. He also shows the
potter Koetsu firing a tea bowl from start to finish and shows
another famous flower arrangement by Rikyu created from start to
finish. (The longer Japanese version is better than the export
version, and there's a sub-titled dvd of the Japanese version.)
Tehigahara's last movie GO HIME (PRINCESS GO)was about Furuta Oribe
who started a school of pottery and was also a tea master. Both of
these movies should be of interest to anyone interested in the
creative process because here is an accomplished filmmaker who is
also a master of ikebana making movies about his predessors in that
art, rather as if Glenn Gould had been a top filmmaker who then took
up piano, mastered it and returned to filmmaking by making a movie
about Arthur Rubenstein.
Richard
4498
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:41am
Subject: Re: film and theater
> The best theater-to-film film that doesn't involve Orson Welles is
> GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS. It is 100% filmed theater but also 100% cinema.
The film that always jumps to my mind when I think of theater
adaptations is THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT. - Dan
4499
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:06am
Subject: Re: film and theater
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > The best theater-to-film film that doesn't involve Orson Welles
is
> > GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS. It is 100% filmed theater but also 100%
cinema.
>
> The film that always jumps to my mind when I think of theater
> adaptations is THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT. - Dan
Message received!
-Jaime, woefully behind in his Fassbinders, partly due to being less-
than-thrilled with what he's seen so far
4500
From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:11am
Subject: Re: Cukor and Emotion
It seems to me that Garbo's entire performance in Camille
is based on a bemused appreciation of her own romantic
folly of falling for the young pup Armand (and no less
bemusement at his sweet naiveté). The knowledge of
unspoken motives also underlies the power of the "piano"
scene where Garbo and Henry Daniell reach a frenzy of
acknowledging the truth but refusing to speak it.
The Philadelphia Story also seems shot through with
scenes of Hepburn and Stewart pulling back and
self-consciously commenting on their emotional situations
(this is also clear in Joan Crawford's constant self-deprecation
in A Woman's Face and the self-consciousness about her
drives makes Claire Bloom's destructive behavior in The
Chapman Report all the more poignant).
On the other hand, I can't think of any such moments in
Gaslight or Zaza or Bhowani Junction, but maybe that's
just me being dense.
(Let me add another vote for Girls About Town too, though
it's been years since I last saw it).
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > there's a distinctive Cukor acting moment, where the actor
> interrupts a flight of ecstasy to smile self-consciously at his or
> her own emotionality, then goes back into the dream.
> > >
> > > Fascinating observation about Cukor, Dan. Can you give some
> > > examples?
> >
> > Wish I had some good examples of Cukor acting at the tips of my
> >fingers. Katharine Hepburn was in that mode almost all the time,
> >mixing rapture and self-consciousness - her New Year's Eve scene
> >with Cary Grant in HOLIDAY would be a good place to look for what
> >I'm talking about.
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