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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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4901
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 6:06am
Subject: Re: Political film criticism (was Woody Allen)
There's an interesting overview in D.N. Rodowick's "The Crisis of
Political Modernism." It presents a useful critique of some key
texts, such as Comolli and Narboni's "Cinema/Ideology/Criticism" and
Baudry's "Ideological Effects of the Cinema Apparatus," which
appeared in Cinéthique. Rodowick is critical of how Cahiers
and others made aesthetic form central to the study of
ideology, and thinks the "text" can't be considered
"a site of political activity" and the distinction between
ideological/illusionist and theoretical/materialist texts is
inconclusive, since a text is a function of "its historical
placement within a mode of consumption or interpretation:
'its condition of production can have no special priority in
analysis over its subsequent and variable conditions of existence
and activity.'"
Going further back, this essay by Michel Mardore (Cahiers du
Cinéma #153, Feb, 1966; Cahiers du Cinéma in English 3), is
interesting, raising the question of the relationship between
cinema and knowledge -- a question that would later preoccupy
Comolli and Narboni.
http://www.panix.com/~pcg/Mardore.txt
Paul
4902
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Digest Number 277
On Dec 2, 2003, at 12:20 AM, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
>
My immediate response to Ghost Dog / Kill Bill comparison is related to
> the capitalist creature idea. Ghost Dog is 'paying a debt or returning
> a favor' but essentially for hire; Kill Bill is about personal revenge.
> A HIT MAN seems to be distant from his objective is a way that makes
> KILL BILL a totally different kind of killing. The HIT MAN probably
> often evolves to someone personally involved, as the assassin UMA does
> in KILL BILL, but we don't really see that evolution. A HIT MAN is in
> the service of revenge, but not after revenge and that seems very
> different
This is something that has come up, the HIT MAN film versus the REVENGE
film, mostly with KILL BILL and POINT BLANK. One thing that makes all
of the films on the list interesting is that the central "job" in the
film is usually one of a personal nature instead of a paid hit. It
seems that this normally stems from an emotional turning point - the
hitman is supposed to be an emotionally inaccessible figure, he cuts
off family and friends and feels nothing when he kills - when his
emotions are evoked though, he must make a choice to obey or break his
code. I think when revenge is the personal issue at hand, the hitman
becomes interesting because only his skills and comfort with killing
would allow an individual to gain the sort of "personal justice
synonymous with revenge" unknown to citizens of a civilized society
with modern legal systems. Most of us don't kill someone when we want
revenge. This may be one of the reasons the hitman appeals to us in
cinema - we're envious of his situation. When he wants revenge, he
gets it the only way he knows how because he is qualified, and slowly
the task seems more and more akin to his profession. This is the case
with Uma in KILL BILL - revenge through self-employment. In POINT
BLANK, it seems like Walker is just trying to kill as many people as
possible until he can find the man responsible for the attempt on his
life. His code has been violated, and his reaction is violence. The
claim, "I want my $93,000 dollars" is something of a subconscious
scapegoat for more violence; Walker seems to realize this at the end
when he doesn't come out for the money, or at least waits for a while
to retrieve it. KILL BILL is a totally different kind of killing, but
I'm interested in how the Hitman can be personally involved, and how he
doesn't lose his title when he does. Does a hitman cease to be a
hitman when he fails to act completely detached from his victims, or
when he uses his skills to attend to personal matters?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4903
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:07am
Subject: hitmen
MURDER BY CONTRACT is a great film and ahead of its time in certain
respects (it's even weirder in its minimalist sensibility than THE
HONEYMOON KILLERS) -- although I have to say its left little with me
since I first saw it some months ago (Melville sometimes has the safe
effect on me --go figure). Anyway, they're all worthwhile titles, but
for me an even more apt choice than THE CONFORMIST (as your
non-Melville Euro entry) would be THE AMERICAN FRIEND, a film that gets
to the crux of your theory on hitmen as the puppets of corporate
string-pullers, not to mention a fusion of different influences at a
very particular (and very good) time in Wim Wenders' career. (A film
that pays homage to Nic Ray? How can Block Cinema -- as
near-completists -- not show it?!)
4904
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:11am
Subject: Re: Hitmen
Oscar, Welcome. Check out Jacques Deray's American feature The
Outside Man, starring Jean-Louis Trintignant. Thom Andersen (q.v.)
considers it one of the best depictions of Los Angeles ever - seen
through the eyes of a French hitman.
4905
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:23am
Subject: Re: Hitmen
The Killers (Don Siegel, 1964). Bitchun flick.
4906
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:30am
Subject: Re: Re: Hitmen
BUDDY BUDDY anyone?
4907
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:36am
Subject: Re: Hitmen
Gabe wrote: BUDDY BUDDY anyone?
What I like about that film is Lemmon's performance, not Matthau's.
His weepiness, his tantrums, his contirted body language, the way
he's always bathed in fluids, connote "a baby." A great performance,
beautifully directed.
4908
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:42am
Subject: Re: Quelles sont nos taches sur le front culturel? (was something else)
J-PC's mocking title brings a nostalgic tear to these old eyes, while
Rodowick's Frenchlish leaves me stone cold. (But thanks for the
Mardore article, Paul.) It was indeed something else: "Taches" with a
circumflex (the little rooftop) means "tasks" - "What are our tasks
on the cultural front?" "Taches" without the circumflex
means "stains." Properly spelled, it was the title of the lead
article in the first Maoist Cahiers, signed by the short-lived but
fondly remembered Lou Sin Group - a name that always struck me as
unintentionally (?) appropriate for the hard-boiled hero (or heroine)
of a film noir.
4909
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:35am
Subject: Re: What Auteurs Do In Their Free Time
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> >
> Really? That's great to know. How did he look? he's
> been at Death's Door lately.
>
> Oshima was an enormous TV star in Japan throughout the
> 1960's and into the 70's. I fact a whole segment of
> the japanese public knows him prrimarily as a Phil
> Donahue-style TV host of topical shows.
>
>
Although he looked older than his 70 years, Oshima was quite spry and
seemed to have a healthy appetite.
4910
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:35am
Subject: Bernard Herrmann Archives
I don't know how many of you see the Moving Image Archivists list, but this
posting was worth sharing with you all.
George Robinson
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Pomes"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AMIA-L] Bernard Herrmann Archives
> This website is useful for all things related to Herrmann:
>
> http://www.uib.no/herrmann/
>
> It contains an extensive discography, lists of his compositions, e-mail
> list, interviews with persons knowing the composer, articles on Herrmann,
> information on upcoming concerts, and other information.
>
> Stephen V. Pomes, Librarian
> Library
> Minerals Management Service
> U.S. Dept. of the Interior
> 1201 Elmwood Park Blvd., MS 5031
> New Orleans, LA 70123-2394
> Telephone: 504-736-2521
> Fax: 504-736-2525
> E-Mail: stephen.pomes@m...
>
> +++++++++++++++++
>
> Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily correspond to those
of
>
> my employer.
>
> +++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Seubert [mailto:seubert@L...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 12:02 AM
> To: AMIA-L@L...
> Subject: Re: [AMIA-L] Bernard Herrmann Archives
>
> The inventory to the Herrmann Archives is available in the Online Archive
> of California:
>
> http://findaid.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/tf438nb3jd
>
> David Seubert, Curator
> Performing Arts Collection
> University of California
> Santa Barbara, CA 93106
> mailto:seubert@l...
> http://library.ucsb.edu/speccoll/pa/
>
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, E. Summer wrote:
>
> > Is anyone on this list familiar with the contents of the Bennie Herrmann
> > archives?
> >
> > If so, can you please contact me offlist?
> >
> > Many thanks.
> >
> > E. S.
> >
>
>
4911
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:00am
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> My zip code was 10027 for twenty years. Where does that put me?
>
I reckon that would put you at Columbia, and the movies encompassing
the area would include The Mirror Has Two Faces, Marathon Man, Pride
of the Yankees, Ghostbusters -- yikes. Thank goodness there's also
Ball of Fire.
I've lived in New York for 30 years, and the movies that speak most
eloquently of the City to me are still those that celebrate the
magical opportunities of discovery available here, films such as
Breakfast At Tiffany's. Next Stop Greenwich Village, The World of
Henry Orient and The Clock.
4912
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:05am
Subject: Re: hitmen
Killer (Omirbaev), La Virgen de los Sicarios/Our Lady of the Assassins (Schroeder), The Mechanic (Winner), The Crying Game (Jordan)
4913
From:
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:57am
Subject: Re: Hit Men
You might want to include some movies from the 1940's film noir era:
This Gun for Hire (Frank Tuttle)
The Whistler (William Castle)
The Killers (Robert Siodmak)
Also, Charles McGraw's vicious mob enforcer in "T-Men" (Anthony Mann) is a
pretty terrifying figure, even though he is just a supporting character.
Similarly Richard Widmark in the infamous "Kiss of Death" (Henry Hathaway).
"This Gun for Hire" is especially relevant to the rest of your series. It is
clearly the inspiration for "Le Samourai", just as that film in turn gave rise
to "Ghost Dog". It is not as good as the Melville and Jarmusch classics, but
it IS the original.
The basic plot of "The Whistler" was reused in the TV movie "The Face of
Fear" (George McCowan, 1971), and done well.
A well done TV movie that involves political assasination is "Dead Men Tell
No Tales" (Walter Grauman, 1971). This has some interesting thematic looks at
the whole concept of professional spy killers.
Mike Grost
PS - Trying to remember the name of the mystery writer, whose novel titles
involve such corny puns as "The Hit Man Cometh". His series private eye is
named Murdoch, and is featured in such books as "Dial M for Murdoch".
A different writer wrote a book about the Orient highway near Huston, Texas.
This is called "Merger on the Orient Expressway".
4914
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:36am
Subject: Re: Re: Hit Men
I'm a late arrival to this thread. Did anyone mention "Day of the Jackal,"
"Suddenly," "The Valachi Papers," "The Mechanic," "Assassins?" Mind you,
only the first two are any good but they're all on topic.
g
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain
4915
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:39am
Subject: More Hitmen
Also, The Eiger Sanction (arguably Eastwood's worst film), Murder
Incorporated and Lepke.
g
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain
4916
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 1:14pm
Subject: 10027/New York Films
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
> > My zip code was 10027 for twenty years. Where does that put me?
> I reckon that would put you at Columbia...
Now that the subject has been breached, and there are enough
Columbians to find it funny: a few years ago, Hou Hsiao-Hsien came to
be a part of a panel discussion at Columbia as part of an urban film
from Asia series. He introduced DUST IN THE WIND then disappeared.
When he reemerged after the film, he announced (through a translator)
that he'd been drinking at a great place he'd found right across the
street: the West End.
For me, the two greatest New York films are ROPE and REAR WINDOW. I
would own that ROPE cyclorama if it were for sale. Oh, that last reel,
with the flashing neon crescendoing up to Stewart throwing the window
open and shooting, with the elaborate street noise (these films have
great soundtracks!) and sirens.
11217,
PWC
4917
From: jerome_gerber
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 1:28pm
Subject: Re: More Hitmen
"NEW ROSE HOTEL"
Combines many of your themes...in a film unlike any of those
mentioned.
I think if you check out Tag Gallagher's thread on this movie or
his essay on it and Ferrara's other films, you'll have more than
you need to evaluate it.
Sorry I haven't the link at the moment...but I believe the article is
entitled "Geometry of Force."
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> Also, The Eiger Sanction (arguably Eastwood's worst film),
Murder
> Incorporated and Lepke.
> g
>
> Suppose you were an idiot.
> And suppose you were a member of Congress.
> But I repeat myself.
> -- Mark Twain
4918
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 1:41pm
Subject: Re: What Auteurs Do In Their Free Time
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
Oshima was an enormous TV star in Japan throughout the 1960's and into
the 70's.
Just finishing a short bio on Kitano, Oshima was his mentor as early
as 1977-ish, advicing him on making the right choices in acting on
television, to steer away from comedy and play criminals.
While on Kitano, in the little free time he has, he write books (has
written over 50 so far), plays golf and baseball, manages a small
baseball team, plays guitar in a band with Hisaishi, models for
Yamamoto, does commercials, makes photo/art books, write sharp satire
for newspapers and paints (ever since his accident in 94, he has
finished every day with some hours of painting).
If free time includes anything outside making film, he also appears on
television every day of the week, hosting 3 game shows, being part of
a discussion panel, having programs on art and cookery.
And of course he finds time for Yûko Daike :)
4919
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> David, let's face it, your movie New York and
> my movie New York
> and anybody's movie New York is a New York of the
> mind. The New York
> of the films you quote is neither more nor less real
> than Allen's New
> York. "Gritty realism" on film doesn't make things
> more "real". It's
> still cinema. "The Cool World" and "Shadows" are
> poetic visions and
> just as fantasy-like as Allen's "Manhattan".
>
It's not a question of the "real" but of the valid.
There are real people exactly like the characters in
"Manhattan." None of them are worth anyone's time.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
4920
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:27pm
Subject: Re: HITMAN
ROAD TO PERDITION may be unique as it involves a hitman who goes after
another hitman for personal reasons.
IMDB.com has a KEYWORD site which will yield over 200 HITMAN movies
4921
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> >
> > My zip code was 10027 for twenty years. Where does that put
me?
> >
>
>
> I reckon that would put you at Columbia, and the movies
encompassing
> the area would include The Mirror Has Two Faces, Marathon Man,
Pride
> of the Yankees, Ghostbusters -- yikes. Thank goodness there's also
> Ball of Fire.
>
> I've lived in New York for 30 years, and the movies that speak most
> eloquently of the City to me are still those that celebrate the
> magical opportunities of discovery available here, films such as
> Breakfast At Tiffany's. Next Stop Greenwich Village, The World of
> Henry Orient and The Clock.
Allen likes (or liked) to shoot in Riverside Park. I saw him
directing a scene with Farrow on Riverside Drive just round the
corner from my apt. building on Claremont Avenue. Seeing the film
always brings back memories.
JPC
4922
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:49pm
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > David, let's face it, your movie New York and
> > my movie New York
> > and anybody's movie New York is a New York of the
> > mind. The New York
> > of the films you quote is neither more nor less real
> > than Allen's New
> > York. "Gritty realism" on film doesn't make things
> > more "real". It's
> > still cinema. "The Cool World" and "Shadows" are
> > poetic visions and
> > just as fantasy-like as Allen's "Manhattan".
> >
>
> It's not a question of the "real" but of the valid.
> There are real people exactly like the characters in
> "Manhattan." None of them are worth anyone's time.
>
> ____Perhaps your time is more precious than mine, then. I don't
share your jaded misanthropic view. Even people who are not "like us"
can be interesting, no?
JPC
4923
From: Tosh
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:05pm
Subject: Re: What Auteurs Do In Their Free Time
>You can't turn a TV set on for more than 3 hours and not run into
>Kitano's face. He has to be the most famous personality in Japan.
Besides eveything else, I think he also has a curry shop in Tokyo!
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
4924
From: brack_28
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Bernard Herrmann Archives
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> I don't know how many of you see the Moving Image Archivists list
Speaking of this... I started out on the Frameworks listserv and
have since joined this and a number of other film related lists...
They've been a valuable resource, and I simply like reading as many
as I can (though I think I've recently become an annoyance on the
cinematographer's list with my inane questions). Anyway... Anyone
have some suggestions for good film lists out there? These are the
ones I'm currently on and would recommend: CML (cinematographer's
list), Frameworks, and AMMI.
Best,
Josh Mabe
4925
From: Fred Camper
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:15pm
Subject: Re: 10027/New York Films
Well, I'd propose the entire oeuvre of Jonas Mekas, whether shot in New
York or not, as major "New York films" for their sensibility and
frenetic energy. Mekas's "Lost Lost Lost" is more explicitly about the
experience of an immigrant to New York. There are also several great New
York films by Ernie Gehr, notably "Shift" and "Untitled 1981 (people on
a street, seen above, in and out of focus). I've got some stills of the
later and perhaps when it comes time to replace Breer they will be next.
Patrick's two examples are great ones, but I also think that Hollywood
filmmaking practice is particularly ill-suited to rendering places.
That's rarely if ever the point of such films, whose geographic sense
and even "mood" is almost always made subservient to plot and characters.
That said, the opening of "Brigadoon" is a great New York minute.
- Fred, formerly 10024 (where I grew up -- and visited often -- and
which is still very multi-racial) and 10028 (for four years beginning in
1972, when you could still find a railroad flat on the fringe of East
Harlem for $100 a month).
4926
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: HITMAN
Hardly -- "Assassins" and "The Mechanic" are both idiotic variations on that
plot device.
g
Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Nolan"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: HITMAN
> ROAD TO PERDITION may be unique as it involves a hitman who goes after
> another hitman for personal reasons.
>
> IMDB.com has a KEYWORD site which will yield over 200 HITMAN movies
4927
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:31pm
Subject: Re: 10027/New York Films
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ciccone" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>
> > > My zip code was 10027 for twenty years. Where does that put
me?
>
> > I reckon that would put you at Columbia...
>
> Now that the subject has been breached, and there are enough
> Columbians to find it funny: a few years ago, Hou Hsiao-Hsien came
to
> be a part of a panel discussion at Columbia as part of an urban film
> from Asia series. He introduced DUST IN THE WIND then disappeared.
> When he reemerged after the film, he announced (through a
translator)
> that he'd been drinking at a great place he'd found right across the
> street: the West End.
>
Does this Group allow for waxing nostalgic? Don't start me on the
West End (I'm talking about before it became gentrified like
everything else...) I remember good jazz (esp. when Phil Shapp --sp?--
was in charge)and incredibly affordable prices...
When I asked "where does that put me" I meant "ideologically" in
response to a remark about Allen's characters' zip codes
> JPC
For me, the two greatest New York films are ROPE and REAR WINDOW. I
> would own that ROPE cyclorama if it were for sale. Oh, that last
reel,
> with the flashing neon crescendoing up to Stewart throwing the
window
> open and shooting, with the elaborate street noise (these films have
> great soundtracks!) and sirens.
>
> 11217,
> PWC
I've always had a fascination for ROPE, which I saw at the first
afternoon screening the day it came out in Paris in 1949 (I was 15).
When it was re-issued in the eighties I wrote a huge 12-page article
on it for "Cinema" (French) in celebration... I've always wondered
what the location of the apartment building might be, in relation to
the skyline.
Yes ROPE and REAR WINDOW are great New York films-- perhaps
precisely because they were entirely shot on sound stages and far
away from NY. Of course there were some complaints at the time that
Hitch's Greenwich Village was phony, unrealistic...Most American
critics at the time had a tendency to always miss the point...
JPC
4928
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Kitano and curry
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tosh wrote:
> >You can't turn a TV set on for more than 3 hours and not run into
> >Kitano's face. He has to be the most famous personality in Japan.
>
> Besides eveything else, I think he also has a curry shop in Tokyo!
>
>
> --
> Tosh Berman
> TamTam Books
> http://www.tamtambooks.com
At least he has been advertizing for curry on phonecards :)
http://www.takeshikitano.net/scans/phone24.jpg
http://www.takeshikitano.net/scans/phone25.jpg
http://www.takeshikitano.net/scans/phone28.jpg
IF he really has a curry shop, can someone get me the adress?
Henrik
4929
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 5:45pm
Subject: Re: HITMAN
Some sympathetic hitmen are in Wong's "Fallen Angels," Kaurismaki's
"I Hired a Contract Killer," Woo's "The Killer," and Wender's "The
American Friend."
Also, Masuda's "Velvet Hustler" and Suzuki's "Branded to Kill"
and "Pistol Opera."
Jade Leung is terrific in the Hong Kong remake of "La Femme Nikita,"
"Black Cat." The hitwomen in "Naked Killer" are worth a gander.
Also, Siodmak's "The Killers."
Paul
4930
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
> "Generally supportive"? Stillman has made three films; I thought I
> was being fairly critical of--and even sarcastic about--"Barcelona,"
> and didn't exactly give raves to the other two, despite the fact that
> I think his dialogue is sometimes more intelligent than Allen's. But
> to assume in any case that I judge Allen and Stillman exclusively
> because of the way they show certain New York streets is as reductive
> of my reviews as you're accusing me of being of Allen's films. If
> politics were the only criterion, Stillman as a neocon would have to
> be more criticizable tha Allen (who's surely closer to being a
> liberal)--but I never said that politics was the only criterion. As I
> mentioned in an earlier post, a large part of my critique regarding
> Allen was of the reasons why I thought he was being critically
> overvalued.
That's reasonable. I think I understand better what you were doing,
addressing the critical and popular response to Allen's films.
(However, criticizing the audience is often done badly. For
example I consider Kael's "Fantasies of an Art House Audience"
appalling.)
I don't think I have a principled argument to present, instead
only personal preferences. (For example your comparison of
Stillman to Rohmer seems valid as a matter of fact; I can only
object as a matter of personal preference to the implication
that they are similar in aesthetic interest. Does that mean
I accept your denotation that Stillman and Rohmer are
denotatively similar, but I'm bothered by your connotation they
are connotatively similar?)
But I'm not objecting to your "being reductive" of Allen's films.
In fact I think it's often useful for the purposes of criticism
to reduce films to their ostensive political content, even though
the aesthetic interest of the film is usually lost in the
reduction. (But I'm not even sure I want to defend this position --
I recently posted a link to a persuasive attack on it by Mardore.)
Anyway, here's a nice trashing of "Barcelona":
http://us.imdb.com/Reviews/50/5060
Paul
4931
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 8:01pm
Subject: Re: Quelles sont nos taches sur le front culturel? (was something else)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> J-PC's mocking title brings a nostalgic tear to these old eyes, while
> Rodowick's Frenchlish leaves me stone cold. (But thanks for the
> Mardore article, Paul.)
I like Rodowick's argument that modernism (or Form or ecriture)
is not automatically equivalent to progressive, or materialist or
deconstructive. Rodowick is also interesting on the relation of
art to the problem of empiricism: experience is not equivalent
to knowledge. The idea that art functions in a political context,
but isn't in itself a domain of political practice, is debatable,
but also interesting.
Rodowick quotes Sylvia Harvey: "In one of those odd reversals of
history, some of the antirealist theorists of the '70s made a mistake
very similar to that of Lukacs: they tended to assume that texts
could be defined as `radical' on the basis of stylistic properties
alone, rather than on the basis of the tripartite relationship
between textual properties, contemporary social reality and
historically formed readers."
Harvey identified four problems:
"1. The tendency to replace an interest in the relationship
between specific means of aesthetic representation and a
social reality conceived of as distinct from those means,
with an exclusive concern with the means of representation....
2. The tendency towards an essentialist position on the question of
form, for example the argument that a particular style is
essentially progressive or essentially reactionary.
3. The tendency to think through the problem of formal innovation
only in terms of the internal organisation of the literary,
dramatic or filmic `text', and not in terms of the insertion
of that text within a particular apparatus, within a system
of consumption, distribution or exchange specific to a particular
society and a particular historical moment.
4. The tendency to offer a puritanical defense of the `work'
(of reading, of meaning production) which the modernist text
invites the reader to perform, and an accompanying underestimation
of the importance of pleasure and entertainment."
(However, my impression is that Cahiers in the 1970's was always more
inclusive, more open to aesthetic complexity, than most of the
British and American theorists.)
Not that I have any solution to these problems -- the end result
for me is something like what Mardore denounced as the "double
column system" with (political) content neatly separated from
the aesthetic, and art being more or less apolitical. Thus I
"remain open to all compromises, to all resignations."
Paul
4932
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:09pm
Subject: Leisen and alcohol
Let me rewind back to Leisen: no one has
mentioned Death Takes a Holiday, which has
the same dark and seductively romantic
nihilism as The Eagle and the Hawk, the
same as the crucial commitment scene at
Niagara Falls in Remember the Night. (Has
anyone seen Cradle Song?). To me, this
consistent style argues that Leisen trumps
Preston Sturges as the auteur of Remember
the Night. Also, in the films he directed
himself, Sturges rarely allows his characters
to acknowledge or reflect on their underlying
(and motivating) emotions: I can think of a
few moments in Sullivan's Travels and the
romantic scene near the end of The Palm Beach
Story where Colbert and McCrea reconnect
(while Rudy Vallee serenades them from
beneath the balcony).
Sturges more typically presents a fast-moving, brilliant
surface but this often seems a way to deflect digging more
deeply (a tactic not unheard-of among alcoholics). On the
other hand, Remember the Night does honor and indeed
consistently showcases the soul-searching in a way unlike
any Sturges-directed film, but very much like Swing High,
Swing Low, Hold Back the Dawn, and To Each His Own (the
latter representing a surprising return of the unwed mother
melodrama in the High Code-era). Sturges may have written
Remember the Night, but Leisen chose which moments to accent
and how, while building a mood of incipient romance and
pointing to the Stanwyck character's growing sensitivity
to other people.
Of course, it's common knowledge that alcoholism was
rampant during the studio era, afflicting Preston Sturges,
LaCava, McCarey, Ford, and Cassavetes, among many others.
I think that, along with Vincent's suggestion that we
need to consider crafts collaborators to draw a really
nuanced picture of any director's achievement, we also
need to judge the influence of personal factors such as
illness and other physical problems on artistic achievements.
We've mentioned earlier, for example, how Delmer Daves'
fragile health impacted some of his film-making choices.
We all know examples where the director's functioning was
impacted, like Robert Rossen (incapacitating skin disease),
Nicholas Ray (lung cancer), and Antonioni (stroke).
Sometimes the afflicted individual was able to overcome
the problem long enough to produce a gem (like Lilith),
sometimes not.
I don't mean to imply a moral judgment here; in fact,
alcohol may be considered a positive factor that aided
directors to overcome their various demons long enough
to actually produce work. Alcohol stimulates the sense
of fun and abandon and anti-authoritarian action (e.g.,
Claudette Colbert destroying a department store shop
window in She Married Her Boss), and it certainly fueled
the evolution of the screwball comedy during (ironically)
Prohibition.
Nevertheless, it's also tempting to assign alcohol some
blame for the problems in Beautiful Blonde From Bashful
Bend and Satan Never Sleeps (and Bride of Vengeance).
Since there are fairly specific mental processes at work
in alcoholism, these can affect or even determine artistic
achievements, so I wonder whether anyone has seriously
studied this?
Of course, alcohol is not the only substance that could
affect artistic decisions: would we have Duel In the Sun
at all without Selznick's Benzedrine addiction? (We certainly
wouldn't have all his endless, verbose memos that are now
a valuable window into how decisions were made in Selznick's
head). It seems too obvious to mention Jean Cocteau's opiate
visions that he seemed to transfer directly to the screen
(and we are all the better for them). Or how about Douglas
Fairbanks's physical exuberance and the chemical aid of
cocaine, or Dennis Hopper's films and what-have-you?
On the other hand, it would also be interesting to identify
any unique artistic qualities that might be shared by directors
whose alcohol use did NOT reach crisis proportions, such as
(unless I'm mistaken) Preminger, Sirk, Wilder, Ophuls, Sternberg,
Wyler, King Vidor and Cukor. It would be presumptuous to discuss
these factors in terms of living directors, naturally, unless
one were living with them, and even then!
--Robert Keser
4933
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > ____Perhaps your time is more precious than mine,
> then. I don't
> share your jaded misanthropic view. Even people who
> are not "like us"
> can be interesting, no?
I've only seen two films with anyone even so much as
remotely like me in them. And both of them were by
Patrice Chereau.
The New York films I cited I treasure more for their
visual and atmospheric views of the city than even the
characters they deal with.
And to that end I'd also cite "The World of Henry Orient."
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4934
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:40am
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> I've only seen two films with anyone even so much as
> remotely like me in them. And both of them were by
> Patrice Chereau.
>
We all know that one is "Ceux qui m'aiment prendront le train".
Would the other be "L'Homme blesse"?
JPC
> > __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> http://companion.yahoo.com/
4935
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:48am
Subject: Re: Quelles sont nos taches sur le front culterel?
Paul, I'm very happy you are thinking about these things. The fact
that film criticism passed through an era when form and politics
were being debated - and sometimes equated - has left all sorts
of marks on the present which need to be sifted, reactivated,
questioned or overgone. I keep citing the dead hand of political
criticism deforming or cutting short criticism in many film
reviews by members of my generation, but of course there's
what has happened in the university system, as well. I don't view
all this stuff as a negative intrusion on esthetics, although I'm
sure some in the group do, but it is taking the place of
something better that can only come about if we question the
heritage that has dumped all these bones on the beach.
4936
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:50am
Subject: Re: Allen is a fraud
Has anyone mentioned Shadows?
4937
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 1:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Allen is a fraud (used to be: What is wrong...)
Yes it would.
"L'Homme Blesse" is a startlingly accurate
reproduction of my High School years -- save for the
fact that I never actually strangled anyone.
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've only seen two films with anyone even so much
> as
> > remotely like me in them. And both of them were by
> > Patrice Chereau.
> >
> We all know that one is "Ceux qui m'aiment
> prendront le train".
> Would the other be "L'Homme blesse"?
>
> JPC
> > > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > http://companion.yahoo.com/
>
>
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4938
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 1:18am
Subject: Re: hitmen in film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, A. Oscar Boyson
wrote:
"I'm currently proposing a series about the "Hitman" in film - his
adaptability through genres, national film cultures, eras, and other
films. One of the ideas that runs through the series is that of the
hitman as a sort of international hybrid - combining the Gangster
and Western film cultures of the United States with the Yakuza and
Samurai genres of Japan, and to some extent the Italian Spaghetti
Western as well."
As for Japanese "Hitmen," an excellent yakuza picture is Shinoda's
KWAITA HANA (PALE FLOWER) called the CITIZEN KANE of yakuza films by
fans of that genre. His ANSATSU (THE ASSASIN) is also excellent, and
and his second most recent film OWL'S CASTLE (the CITIZEN KANE of
ninja movies?) is quite good.
You should also consider ninja films because they deal exclusively
with assasins for hire. Since you mentioned KILL BILL, THE YAGU
CONSPIRACY is worth looking at because it features Sonny Chiba as
Hattori Hanzo, a semi-legendary ninja in the employ of the Yagyu clan
and portrayed in many movies set during the late Momoyama and early
Edo periods. Also referenced in KILL BILL is LADY SNOWBLOOD, a
female swordswoman out to avenge the destruction of her clan
(since the 1960s there have been a number of female ninja or
swordswoman movies but few contemporary female assasin movies until
recently.)
So far no one has mentioned DAIBOSATSU TOGE (SWORD OF DOOM) which
seems to be a favorite of Paul Scharder's; he's drawn on it for TAXI
DRIVER, ROLLING THUNDER, HARDCORE and THE YAKUZA. This is the
chanbara (sword fight samurai) movie par excellence. It's based on a
novel from the early 1930s about a remorseless fencing master who
becomes a killer for hire after he's been ostracized for killing an
opponent in what was intended as a non-lethal fencing match with
wooden swords. It's been filmed four times but the most memorable
one is the 1966 version with Nakadai Tatsuya.
Richard
4939
From: Brian Darr
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:57am
Subject: another hitman movie
Have you seen Johnny To & Wai Ka-Fai's dueling hitmen movie "Fulltime
Killer", which references many of the others on your list? I think
it also very well fits in with your conception of hitman as
internationalist, capitalist, etc.
4940
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 4:42am
Subject: Re: Leisen and alcohol
--- Robert Keser wrote:
> Since there are fairly specific mental processes at
> work
> in alcoholism, these can affect or even determine
> artistic
> achievements, so I wonder whether anyone has
> seriously
> studied this?
>
> Of course, alcohol is not the only substance that
> could
> affect artistic decisions: would we have Duel In the
> Sun
> at all without Selznick's Benzedrine addiction? (We
> certainly
> wouldn't have all his endless, verbose memos that
> are now
> a valuable window into how decisions were made in
> Selznick's
> head). It seems too obvious to mention Jean
> Cocteau's opiate
> visions that he seemed to transfer directly to the
> screen
> (and we are all the better for them). Or how about
> Douglas
> Fairbanks's physical exuberance and the chemical aid
> of
> cocaine, or Dennis Hopper's films and what-have-you?
>
> On the other hand, it would also be interesting to
> identify
> any unique artistic qualities that might be shared
> by directors
> whose alcohol use did NOT reach crisis proportions,
> such as
> (unless I'm mistaken) Preminger, Sirk, Wilder,
> Ophuls, Sternberg,
> Wyler, King Vidor and Cukor. It would be
> presumptuous to discuss
> these factors in terms of living directors,
> naturally, unless
> one were living with them, and even then!
>
Why stop with alcohol? Phillipe Garrel was (still is?)
a heroin addict.
On the downside there's Joel Schumacher, whose
description of the many different drugs he was taking
during the 60's in "Edie" is one of the best passages
of that oral history.
His movies still suck, however.
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4941
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:02am
Subject: Re: Leisen and alcohol
> Why stop with alcohol? Phillipe Garrel was (still is?)
> a heroin addict.
>
> On the downside there's Joel Schumacher,
But then there's Ferrara, Monteiro, and Pedro Costa. Willem Dafoe told
me said that what happened on NEW ROSE HOTEL was "a shame", but still
spoke lovingly of Abel. Monteiro, although he had the frame of a heroin
addict, was a long-time alcoholic, and a very bad one in recent years.
Cancer got him before his liver went. There are semi-confirmed rumors
that Pedro Costa is on junk. IN VANDA'S ROOM, although I haven't seen
it, is probably revealing of the desire and addiction of the man at
helm. I have been meaning to write an article on drunk and druggie
filmmakers, one editor even told me he would publish such a thing. I
still don't know if I have a reason to you yet....
Gabe
4942
From:
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:32am
Subject: New York Films
Fred Camper wrote:
> Patrick's two examples are great ones, but I also think that Hollywood
> filmmaking practice is particularly ill-suited to rendering places.
> That's rarely if ever the point of such films, whose geographic sense
> and even "mood" is almost always made subservient to plot and characters.
The one counterexample of this that I always think of - at least in reference
to films set in New York - is Peter Bogdanovich's masterpiece "They All
Laughed." That isn't to say that the geography of the city is the point of the
film; it's a narrative film. But there are some astonishing sequences where the
audience is really just invited to get lost in the space of the city. Usually
these moments are built around extended scenes of the lead characters -
private detectives played by Ben Gazzara, John Ritter, and Blaine Novak - following
(and, later, as screwball comedy complications ensue, interacting with) the
women they've been hired to follow around the city. You feel as though you're
walking right alongside them as they move through the various locations - all
of which are 100% authentic, by the way. Peter told me that not a single
thing in that film was built except for the office of the detectives - and that
was built simply in the space of an existing building. His use of sound also
adds to the feeling that the audience is inhabiting the space of the city - in
the scenes mentioned above, dialogue is at an absolute minimum (sometimes
wholly nonexistent) and there's no soundtrack apart from the ambient noise of the
city.
Brilliant stuff. And it doesn't hurt that it is, to my thinking, almost
unquestionably the most romantic vision of New York ever put on film. Well,
Edwards' "Breakfast at Tiffany's" - already named by Damien - does in fairness give
it a run for its money. But talking about Edwards' use of space would take
up several more posts, so I'll stop here and wonder if anyone else agrees with
me about the Bogdanovich.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4943
From:
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:40am
Subject: The Choirboys
Joe McElhaney wrote:
> But I just want to point out that Fred is not the only major
> critic to defend THE CHOIRBOYS.
Thanks for the tip on George Morris's appreciation of the film, Joe. I see
that Dave Kehr also defended the film; in Jonathan's negative capsule review on
the Chicago Reader website, he quotes Kehr's praise for the film from,
presumably, an earlier Kehr review.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4944
From:
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:46am
Subject: One-shots, the Scotts
Dan Sallitt wrote:
> Some other films that I'd put in
> this category are Ridley Scott's THE DUELLISTS
You know, I've never seen "The Duellists" precisely because I've never
particularly cared for Ridley Scott's other films. But I guess I owe it to myself
to check it out if it falls into the one-shot category.
What do y'all think of Ridley's bro, Tony? I saw a letterboxed tape of "The
Hunger" a while ago and was convinced that - for all its received-art
film/early '80s music video pretensions (how's that for a new genre?) - there was
something to it as I was watching it. I remember, in particular, some montage
effects in which he juxtaposed events in an interesting, distinctive manner. It
almost made me want to revisit some of his other films, none of which have
ever impressed me. Could it be that he's a one-shot - and "The Hunger" is that
film - or that I'm missing something and he's a really consistent director?
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4945
From:
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:56am
Subject: Woody Allen
Sam Wells wrote:
> (I remember saying to someone after seeing Stardust Memories "it's a great
> Gordon
> Willis movie")
>
Well... as distinctive as Willis is, I just can't quite grant him auteur
status. The films he did for, oh, Alan Pakula and Woody Allen are quite
different, for example, because the way those directors utilize space and compose their
shots differ.
I will grant you that, early on, Allen seemed very influenced by his
cinematographers and that one must take this into account in any appreciation of
"Manhattan" or "Stardust Memories" or, a little later, "Hannah and Her Sisters" or
"September." But I think by the late '80s and '90s, he really had developed a
visual language not dependent on who the DP was. He hasn't worked regularly
with the same DP since his last film with Carlo Di Palma, "Deconstructing
Harry," and yet his visual style is more or less the same as it was then. Lots of
long takes, a fondness for zooming, a reticence about using close-ups, and so
on. In fact, I'd even say that he'd have a hard time working with Gordon
Willis today because it seems to me that they don't quite see the same way
anymore.
Now I make a big deal about his switch to 'Scope in "Anything Else" (his best
recent film, IMO), so it's probably worth finding out who came up with the
idea - Woody or his DP on that film, Darius Khondji. But even if Khondji
suggested it, I think the use of space is still distinctively Allen-esque and,
actually, his most impressive in many years; the change in aspect ratios just did
him a world of good, in my opinion. I'd argue for the film on grounds other
than its mise-en-scene too; it seemed to me that Allen has never been so distant
or critical of his on-screen persona. Jason Biggs' character literally
leaves him in the dust at the film's conclusion.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4946
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:58am
Subject: One-Shot Scotts
> What do y'all think of Ridley's bro, Tony? I saw a letterboxed tape of "The
> Hunger" a while ago and was convinced that - for all its received-art
> film/early '80s music video pretensions (how's that for a new genre?) - there was
> something to it as I was watching it. I remember, in particular, some montage
> effects in which he juxtaposed events in an interesting, distinctive manner. It
> almost made me want to revisit some of his other films, none of which have
> ever impressed me. Could it be that he's a one-shot - and "The Hunger" is that
> film - or that I'm missing something and he's a really consistent director?
I actually liked TOP GUN - thought it was well directed. Didn't really
like THE HUNGER when I saw it, but I heard people defend it persuasively.
I didn't have a good time with BEVERLY HILLS COP II, DAYS OF THUNDER, or
TRUE ROMANCE, and so eventually I stopped keeping up with Tony. But I'm
still not convinced that TOP GUN is as worthless as most people think it
is. - Dan
4947
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:48am
Subject: Re: One-shots, the Scotts
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> > Some other films that I'd put in
> > this category are Ridley Scott's THE DUELLISTS
>
> You know, I've never seen "The Duellists" precisely because I've
never
> particularly cared for Ridley Scott's other films. But I guess I
owe it to myself
> to check it out if it falls into the one-shot category.
>
> What do y'all think of Ridley's bro, Tony? I saw a letterboxed tape
of "The
> Hunger" a while ago and was convinced that - for all its
received-art
> film/early '80s music video pretensions (how's that for a new genre?
) - there was
> something to it as I was watching it. I remember, in particular,
some montage
> effects in which he juxtaposed events in an interesting, distinctive
manner. It
> almost made me want to revisit some of his other films, none of
which have
> ever impressed me. Could it be that he's a one-shot - and "The
Hunger" is that
> film - or that I'm missing something and he's a really consistent
director?
>
> Peter
Ridley Scott's "The Duellists" is an amazing little film Peter. It was
as far as I know the first film to portrait the art of fencing as
fencing really was; not the Fairbanks / Flynn Hollywood fencing, but
real technical fencing. But it is also one hell of a beautiful picture
to watch at, each frame a painting, a study in light. But its also a
great little story, examinating honor, patrotism and the plain
stupidity behind being a duellist.
The problem with Ridley Scott is, that he never thinks about what he
makes. He has a great eye for looks good, even in his worst films,
there always are scenes that stick with you, but we do demand a story
that raises above synopsis level in depth. So while he is a solid and
very technical craftsman, he never will be appriciated, because he has
no voice. And still, he will be talked about in 50 years, because he
did manage to make a handful of films which participated in shaping
cinema in the 80s (Alien, Blade Runner, Thelma and Louise).
4948
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:53am
Subject: Lars von Trier found his new Grace
Lars von Trier has found his new Grace for his second installment in
his "U S A" trilogy "Manderlay".
Grace will be 21 year old Bryce Dallas Howard, daughter of Ron Howard.
She is both new and untested, but Lars von Trier is unshakable in his
choice. She is a great actress, she will be a great star in the
future.
Having found his Grace, von Trier is now ready to begin production.
Filming will begin in Trollhättan the 1st March 2004.
Henrik
4949
From: jaketwilson
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 7:22am
Subject: Re: New York Films
Peter T on THEY ALL LAUGHED:
> You feel as though you're walking right alongside them as they
move through the various locations - all of which are 100%
authentic, by the way. Peter told me that not a single thing in that
film was built except for the office of the detectives - and that was
built simply in the space of an existing building. His use of
sound also adds to the feeling that the audience is inhabiting
the space of the city - in the scenes mentioned above, dialogue
is at an absolute minimum (sometimes wholly nonexistent) and
there's no soundtrack apart from the ambient noise of the
> city.
This is only tangentially relevant, but I was struck by something
Brian de Palma said in an interview, that many of his ideas came
less than from watching movies than from wandering round
cities; for example, the opening of DRESSED TO KILL was
inspired by the fact that he really was in the habit of going to art
galleries to try and pick up women. De Palma has lots of great
sequences built around real-life locations, though I don't doubt
he cheats with the space whenever it's expedient.
I haven't seen THEY ALL LAUGHED, but I obviously must -- what
you describe sounds more like Rohmer or Rivette than any
Hollywood movie that springs to mind. Still, I don't agree with
Fred that Hollywood narrative conventions need be at odds with
the depiction of place. A great fantasy version of New York is THE
WARRIORS, where the story grows directly out of the city's
geography -- as it does in QUICK CHANGE; in fact NY seems
like the most common venue for a whole mini-genre of films
about characters trying to get from one side of a city to the other.
As a foreign observer, I often find myself wondering how far
these movies accurately reflect the cities they depict, and
whether this matters, artistically speaking -- most movies are
granted a certain poetic license with geography, but this
becomes more of an issue when the geography is so closely
tied to the plot.
Ben Speth's DRESDEN is a pretty good experimental narrative
film set in New York, which gives ample attention to the space of
the city. And Bill has already mentioned SHADOWS, but what
about GLORIA?
JTW
4950
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:05pm
Subject: Re: another hitman movie
Brian,
I haven't seen it, but I did hear mediocre reviews. It played at the
Film Center in Chicago last spring, but I missed it. It's not video is
it? Anything interesting on that note? One of the other neat things
about the hitman is that he seems to be a character who lends himself
to the visual possibilities of film in ways other people don't. This
is to say that certain directors seem to be able to do things with the
hitman visually that they couldn't do with their other films (Boorman
with POINT BLANK). If FULLTIME KILLER is video, it might be a neat
addition just in that respect, provided the filmmakers used the medium
in an interesting and unique way - going back to some of the video vs.
film talk that was circulating earlier. I fear I might be thinking of
a different film though, a lot of the stuff they were showing at the
time at Film Center was video, so I might have just made the
assumption.
To everyone else, thanks for the tips. I've got my work cut out for me.
oscar
On Dec 2, 2003, at 10:57 PM, Brian Darr wrote:
> Have you seen Johnny To & Wai Ka-Fai's dueling hitmen movie "Fulltime
> Killer", which references many of the others on your list? I think
> it also very well fits in with your conception of hitman as
> internationalist, capitalist, etc.
>
>
>
>
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4951
From:
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 4:28am
Subject: Re: New York Films
"The Naked City" (Jules Dassin, 1948) gives an amazing time capsule glimpse
of New York City. It also inspired Kurosawa's similar semi-documentary crime
film about Tokyo, "Stray Dog" (1949). Lots of semi-docs have good location
footage - "Armored Car Robbery" (Fleischer) in Los Angeles, "Mystery Street" (John
Sturges) in Boston.
Bogdanovich's "Saint Jack" has a fine tour of Singapore in it. If memory
serves, both it and "They All Laughed" are dedicated to the inhabitants of the
cities they feature.
"Smoke" (Wayne Wang) has a lot of Brooklyn in it. I enjoyed Wang's recent
"Maid in Manhattan" - but when mentioning this film to people, all one gets is
negative commentary about J-Lo. ("J-Lo Forgives Ben; Wedding Plans Back On" was
the headline of a recent supermarket tabloid. Such good news is encouraging!)
I too really liked "Top Gun" - but not any subsequent Tony Scott films. Have
not seen "The Hunger" yet.
Mike Grost
4952
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 1:47pm
Subject: sound advice from group
I will be teaching a class on the aesthetics of film sound next
semester and I want to devote one session to a film shot entirely (or
almost entirely) in direct sound, with minimal or no post-production
manipulation of the final result. Straub/Huillet are usually good
for this sort of thing but I don't have a 16mm. rental budget for the
class. Everything I show has to be on Region 1 DVD or VHS. (Another
topic no one here has addressed so far as I know -- not only how
films are taught but how are they projected in classrooms now, aside
from that controversy over the Frampton film at NYU. Film is being
used less and less. But I digress.)
Does anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking about showing LE
RAYON VERT, especially since Rohmer is also shooting in 16mm. Most
of my students are filmmakers, working in 16 or video, so there is
something exemplary about Rohmer's methods here. (Besides, they
usually like Rohmer.) But is there anything bolder out there in
terms of the use of direct sound?
Joe
4953
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: New York Films
jaketwilson wrote:
>I don't agree with
>Fred that Hollywood narrative conventions need be at odds with
>the depiction of place. A great fantasy version of New York is THE
>WARRIORS, where the story grows directly out of the city's
>geography
>
Well, I've actually seen this, though only once when it came out. I
didn't like it. It seemed to me that the New York background was used
decoratively, for mood. This would be fine with me if I'd liked the
film's mise en scene, but it does mean that for me, its city was
subordinated to the narrative, to the film's graffiti-like theme and to
the narrative's drive.
- Fred
4954
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:57pm
Subject: RE: Leisen and alcohol
> Why stop with alcohol? Phillipe Garrel was (still is?)
> a heroin addict.
I'm not sure why (my upbringing, perhaps?) but the Garrel
films I've seen dealing with heroin abuse have been some of
the most disturbing movies I've seen. Maybe it's the
matter of fact nature in which it is filmed, but to me it's
quite scary. I no longer remember if heroin featured
prominently, but watching "Rue Fontaine" almost ruined my
day.
4955
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: New York Films
--- jaketwilson wrote:
Bill has already mentioned SHADOWS,
> but what
> about GLORIA?
Glad you mentioned it. New York City is very much a
character in "Gloria" -- which opens with soaring
helicopter shots over Manhattan. Much of the character
of specific neighborhoods is used to play off Gena
Rowlands' magnificence.
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4956
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Leisen and alcohol
--- Gabe Klinger wrote:
> But then there's Ferrara, Monteiro, and Pedro Costa.
Glad you mentioned Ferrara. "The Addiction" uses
vampirism as a metaphor for heroin. His directorial
rhythms are pure heroin-haze.
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4957
From: Brian Darr
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 8:48pm
Subject: Re: another hitman movie
Oscar:
I'm 99.9% sure that "Fulltime Killer", like the other films of Johnnie
To's Milkyway Image production company, is film & not video. The only
room for doubt is left by the 19-month time period since I saw the
film. I know the film has had very mixed reviews (many were
especially annoyed by the mishmash of languages in the film, often
spoken by actors who were obviously struggling with them) but I really
liked it, if not as much as To's "a Hero Never Dies" or Wai's "Too
Many Ways to Be #1". I sense I'd appreciate it even more on a
revisitation.
The reason I cited it is because of the cartoonish construction of a
competition between two super-hitmen, which signaled an intent to make
a "hitman-movie-to-end-all-hitman-movies", as well as the
internationalism (the action takes place in at least a half-dozen
different Asian countries) and the capitalism you referred to in your
initial post. And of course the blatantly cinema-aware nature of the
film; one of the characters is a major film buff, and many hitman
films are referenced either in dialogue or re-enacted shots.
"Fulltime Killer" is available as a R1 DVD from Vidmark, and there are
a couple articles at sensesofcinema.com that may be of interest:
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/01/18/to_and_ka-fai.html
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/01/12/to.html
-Brian
4958
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 9:42pm
Subject: Re: sound advice from group
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking about showing LE
> RAYON VERT, especially since Rohmer is also shooting in 16mm. Most
> of my students are filmmakers, working in 16 or video, so there is
> something exemplary about Rohmer's methods here. (Besides, they
> usually like Rohmer.) But is there anything bolder out there in
> terms of the use of direct sound?
>
> Joe
What do you mean by "bolder"? I think LE RAYON VERT (my favorite
Rohmer) is an excellent choice. What about early Cassavetes? I'm not
sure how strictly direct sound the latter masterpieces (e.g., LOVE
STREAMS)are.
JPC
4959
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:29am
Subject: Re: sound advice from group
I'm almost completely unaware of what you can get on video, sorry, but
why not consider the historic film "Primary," from the beginning of
direct sound? It's so "beginning" that the sync often didn't work on
that early equipment. Or an early verite such as Rouch & Morin's
"Chronicle of a Summer" or Marker's "Le Joli Mail" (both great).
On a related note, there's an anthology called "Film Sound," ed. Weis &
Belton, that you might find useful even though it's almost two decades
old. There's a particularly great essay in it by me.
Don't forget to assign the Eisenstein et al. manifesto on sound.
- Fred
4961
From: apmartin90
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:08am
Subject: Decisive plot move query
Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with encyclopedic
memories of decisive plot moves can help me with this query!
I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
inevitably be killed.
The two key examples I am thinking of are in SCARFACE (both
versions, I think) - where Montana arranges for a guy to receive a
call while he (Montana) is present, and the villain's answer
incriminates him as guilty - and in THE BIG SLEEP where Bogart
forces a guy out the door, knowing that there are henchmen
outside ordered to kill the next person (who is meant to be
Bogart) who emerges.
So, my question: can anyone think of other variations on this kind
of plot move?
Adrian
4962
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 8:26am
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move question
Adrian, Hawks did it again in RIO BRAVO, which means he probably did
it again in EL DORADO and RIO LOBO, too. All versions of RED HARVEST
do it, from YOJIMBO to MILLER'S CROSSING. (I didn't see LAST MAN
STANDING.)
There's a separate but related figure, the scapegoat, which has been
my narratological passion for 30 years. Gloria Graham kills the
crooked cop's wife and keeps Ford from dirtying his hands in THE BIG
HEAT; Falstaff takes credit for killing Hotspur and is banished,
which means that the cycle of revenge is broken - no one can go after
Hal to avenge Hotspur, so a stable new royal household is in position
at last, establuishing the line leading (sort of) to Elizabeth. In
neither case does the hero maneuver the scapegoat into position - it
happens as part of the divine plan. Which is another scapegoat
mechanism, where we're all the tools. This is a form of ethical
sleight-of-hand found throughout the Western narrative tradition
(most notably in PARADISE LOST), to which your examples of deliberate
maneuvering also belong. (RED HARVEST is a Jacobean tragedy plot
transposed to gangland.) Another variant would be Woods trying to get
De Niro to kill him at the end of ONCE UPON A TIME, so he can
disappear. Which De Niro refuses to do.
4963
From: Peter Tonguette
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:18am
Subject: Re: New York Films
Jake Wilson writes:
> I haven't seen THEY ALL LAUGHED, but I obviously must --
what
> you describe sounds more like Rohmer or Rivette than any
> Hollywood movie that springs to mind.
It's funny you should mention that because I always think of the
opening of "Celine and Julie" when watching the sequences I
mention from "They All Laughed." That isn't to say that
Bogdanovich's sensibility is similar to Rivette's, of course, just
that they both make very interesting and expressive use of real
geography - and even tend to emphasize it more than is typical
in narrative film.
Mike Grost is exactly right in comparing the 'travelogue' aspects
of "Saint Jack" and "They All Laughed." In fact, the films share
the same DP too, the great Robby Muller. Bogdanovich seems
to really thrive on location.
> And Bill has already mentioned SHADOWS, but what
> about GLORIA?
"Gloria" is a great one. I also forgot to mention Robert Mulligan's
wonderful "Love With the Proper Stranger."
Peter
4964
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "apmartin90" wrote:
> Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with encyclopedic
> memories of decisive plot moves can help me with this query!
>
> I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
> inevitably be killed.
Adrian -- This is outside the realm of crime and action thrillers but
in TO BE OR NOT TO BE the murder of Professor Siletsky is a
complicated variation on this situation.
4965
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 1:28pm
Subject: Re: sound advice from group
My thanks to Fred and Jean-Pierre for their feedback. I'm not sure
what I meant by a "bolder" film than LE RAYON VERT -- I suppose I
just meant a film which uses direct sound in a more obvious and self-
conscious way. But from your response, it sounds like sticking to
the Rohmer will be a good idea.
I'd forgotten about PRIMARY, which I do have access to, and since I
want to show documentaries that should work out very well. The
Belton/Weis book will be one of the required texts for the class,
along with Chion and, in fact, Fred's piece will be assigned since
I'll be showing ROSE HOBART.
Thanks again.
Joe
4966
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:19pm
Subject: Decisive plot move query
The examples you give have the main characters 'intentionally' cause
the death of another, even if indirectly.
In ONE THE WATER FRONT, Terry unintentionally causes the death of of
the fellow he sends up to the roof; his brother intentionally walks
into his own death when he leaves the cab.
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 07:08:03 -0000
> From: "apmartin90"
> Subject: Decisive plot move query
> scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
> inevitably be killed.
>
> The two key examples I am thinking of are in SCARFACE (both
> versions, I think) - where Montana arranges for a guy to receive a
> call while he (Montana) is present, and the villain's answer
> incriminates him as guilty - and in THE BIG SLEEP where Bogart
> forces a guy out the door, knowing that there are henchmen
> outside ordered to kill the next person (who is meant to be
> Bogart) who emerges.
>
> So, my question: can anyone think of other variations on this kind
> of plot move?
>
> Adrian
4967
From: Chris Fujiwara
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
Adrian:
In "Underworld USA," as I recall, Cliff Robertson sets up Paul Dubov
(by falsifying evidence against him) so that the mob boss will order
him to be killed.
The same situation occurs in "Hangmen Also Die," which might be a
very interesting film for your project, if it's not outside your
intended scope. (Of course false evidence is planted in lots of
movies. On the other hand, the planting isn't always intended to
cause death, as it is in these two cases.)
"Le cercle rouge" ends with characters being set up (by the police),
with death as the result.
Maybe the death of Paul Valentine in "Out of the Past" is a relevant
variation.
I have a feeling something like what you're talking about happens in
one or more Walsh films, but I'm having trouble coming up with
examples. In a way what Errol Flynn does to Arthur Kennedy in "They
Died with Their Boots On," kidnapping him and forcing him to take
part in Custer's Last Stand, is a variation. And I'm drawing a blank
for some reason on how Steve Cochran dies in "White Heat," but I have
a feeling it's related....
Enough for now....
Chris
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "apmartin90" wrote:
> Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with encyclopedic
> memories of decisive plot moves can help me with this query!
>
> I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
> inevitably be killed.
>
> The two key examples I am thinking of are in SCARFACE (both
> versions, I think) - where Montana arranges for a guy to receive a
> call while he (Montana) is present, and the villain's answer
> incriminates him as guilty - and in THE BIG SLEEP where Bogart
> forces a guy out the door, knowing that there are henchmen
> outside ordered to kill the next person (who is meant to be
> Bogart) who emerges.
>
> So, my question: can anyone think of other variations on this kind
> of plot move?
>
> Adrian
4968
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: sound advice from group
> My thanks to Fred and Jean-Pierre for their feedback. I'm not sure
> what I meant by a "bolder" film than LE RAYON VERT -- I suppose I
> just meant a film which uses direct sound in a more obvious and self-
> conscious way.
Just thought I'd mention that, from a technical point of view, it's
pretty much impossible to tell whether the sound in any movie is
recorded direct or not. You'd basically need an affadavit from the
filmmakers that what the audience is hearing is exactly what the sound
mixer heard through the headphones during the take. It's easy to add
sound, excise sound, and doctor sound in such a way that the end result
seems quite natural to the audience.
You can make an argument that what we call natural sound is in fact
sound where the key narrative information is impeded in some way.
What always amazes me is how little the film industry cares about even
faking it. There's a maxim that you always hear from sound
professionals: "Record it as clean as you can - you can always dirty it
up later." The trouble is that no one ever wants to dirty it up later!
So movies are often marred by ridiculously clear, clean, close sound.
A while back, I praised Becker's RENDEZ-VOUS DE JUILLET as the only
film I know that captures that feeling of loud music bouncing off the
hard walls of a tiny club. How hard is that to do? Becker stands alone
for the sole reason that everyone else was more interested in giving the
audience a nice musical experience.
- Dan
4969
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:53pm
Subject: Re: sound advice from group
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> Just thought I'd mention that, from a technical point of view, it's
> pretty much impossible to tell whether the sound in any movie is
> recorded direct or not. You'd basically need an affadavit from the
> filmmakers that what the audience is hearing is exactly what the
sound mixer heard through the headphones during the take. It's easy
to add sound, excise sound, and doctor sound in such a way that the
end result seems quite natural to the audience.
>
> You can make an argument that what we call natural sound is in fact
> sound where the key narrative information is impeded in some way.
Oh sure. In searching for an interesting direct sound film I wasn't
necessarily looking for one that was purely direct since, as you
correctly note, you would need pretty thorough access to the film's
production and post-production history for confirmation. But some
films give a very good impression of being shot and recorded in this
way, as in LE RAYON VERT where Rohmer keeps in certain uneven
balances between dialogue and sound effects, or at least uneven in
terms of how soundtracks are traditionally mixed. Chion does some
detailed work on THE AVIATOR'S WIFE in which, while noting Rohmer's
stated interest in respecting the integrity of location sound, Chion
also points out the lengths to which Rohmer goes in order to filter
out unwanted noises, including shooting the film during early morning
hours when certain parts of the city would be quieter. To my ears
anyway, LE RAYON VERT seems less controlled in this way than AVIATOR.
I'm going to have a room full of production students, though, so I'm
going to need to find out some specifics on LE RAYON VERT (if they're
available) because questions will arise.
4970
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 4:08pm
Subject: decisive plot move
I don't recall if she understands that he will be killed or just
arrested through her actions, but Mattie's betrayal of Bowie to the
police in THEY LIVE BY NIGHT might be another version of an indirect
death.
Livia betrays Franz in SENSO, in full awareness of the fact that he
will be shot by the military as a result. A neatly averted example
of a betrayal of this nature is in NORTH BY NORTHWEST, when Eve sends
Roger off to the corn fields, believing that he will most likely be
killed there. But we all know what happens after that.
4971
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: sound advice from group
Dan Sallitt wrote:
>...The trouble is that no one ever wants to dirty it up later! ...
>
Well, but isn't the other side of this those "direct sound"
documentaries and low-budget features in which the dialogue is nearly
incomprehensible? Production stills showing the use of shotgun mikes
under huge windscreens in small interior spaces suggest that sometimes
they have failed to use the best tool for the job. I'm talking about the
60s and early 70s, not today, but Dan, you have more sound film
production experience than I have; can you comment?
- Fred
4972
From: brack_28
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 5:07pm
Subject: Re: decisive plot move
I can't remember this too well, but in Notorious, isn't Claude Rains
in a way set-up and left to an almost certain death with the Nazis?
Leaving the bad guy alone to face a certain death seems like a
pretty common plot device too.
Josh Mabe
PS. God Bless David Hemmings
4973
From: vincent lobrutto
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:19pm
Subject: Re: Sound Advice From the Group
I've been enjoying this discussion on sound. Many good points have been made. The most challenging project I have been involved with was Sound-On-Film: Interviews with Creators of Film Sound. Sound is a very complex cinema craft. There are so many aspects, production recording, ADR, Foley, sound efx, engineering, theater reproduction, re:recording, and sound design. The concept of Direct Sound was a holy grail during the 1960s and 1970s especially for documentaries. Even if it can be investigated that absolutely no manipulating was done to the original recording there is the whole issue of the mics used and placement. Sound perspective is a very interesting area that is rarely discussed. I agree with the comment about getting clean sound and dirtying it up later. Sound must be recorded with a concept and point of view in mind. The most profound interview experience was talking with Walter Murch. He told me when you are recording the sound of a phone ringing you are not directly
recording the sound of the phone ringing but you are recording the space/distance between the mic and the source of the sound. Murch is a strong believer in getting a production track or original recording of an effect or ambience in a manner that will result in the aural properties he is looking for. When he recorded the narration for Apocalypse Now he selected the mic he wanted and put in as close to Martin Sheen's mouth as possible (he also used this technique for the narration in Julia) the result was an original recording that sounded like it was coming from inside the character's head. All the sweetening and mixing in the world would never achieve that with a "clean" recording. Of course once you've got it right enhancements can further you objectives.
Vinny
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4974
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:25pm
Subject: Re: Sound advice from group
Straub and Huillet make a fetish of direct sound and are too serious
about it to manipulate the results. New Yorker has prints of LES YEUX
NE VEULENT PAS EN TOUT TEMPS SE FERMER, OU PEUT-ETRE QU'UN JOUR ROME
SE PERMETTRA DE CHOISIR A SON TOUR [OTHON] - where you can hear the
modern-day Roman traffic in the background of the recitation of the
Corneille play - and FROM CLOUDS TO THE RESISTANCE, as well as
FORTINI/CANI, UNRECONCILED and CHRONICLE OF ANNA MAGDALENA BACH.
On the other hand Kiarostami, as I indicated in a previous post,
plays with sound in post-production all the time to create the
impression of "natural" sound. CLOSE-UP is a good example of that.
THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE, Dwan's last film, was made in Mexico on
practical locations and retains the sounds of passing traffic in what
is supposed to be an isolated house, etc. I'd think Ed Wood Jr.'s
PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE has more examples of this kind of thing.
4975
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:31pm
Subject: Re: Sound Advice from the Group
After reading Vinny: Hitchcock was interested in sound perspective
(in the sense of matching how sound is mixefd in the shot to the size
of the shot). Listen to the last sequence of Notorious, with the
characters descending the stairs whispering to each other and the
Nazis in the foyer calling up to them. He wanted to try a complex
system of sound perspective in the one-reel symphony scene of the
1956 Man Who Knew Too Much, so that the different music sources would
sound near or far depending on the size of the image, but decided
against it. Watching Moonrise at UCLA it seemed to me that Borzage
was effectively exploting this technique, at least in some scenes.
4976
From: jaketwilson
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Sound advice from group
hotlove666 wrote:
> THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE, Dwan's last film, was made in Mexico
on
> practical locations and retains the sounds of passing traffic in
what
> is supposed to be an isolated house, etc. I'd think Ed Wood Jr.'s
> PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE has more examples of this kind of thing.
This article is some kind of reductio ad absurdum of complaints about
sound inconsistencies:
www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/06/13/ornithology/index.html
Or does he have a point?
JTW
4977
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Sound advice from group
Jake, Fascinating article, especially re: Eyes Wide Shut. Maybe
Kubrick meant something by it? Maybe not. Anyway, when I was
listening to the 1/4-inch originals of Peter B's interviews with
Welles about IT'S ALL TRUE for the IT'S ALL TRUE: BASED ON AN
UNFINISHED FILM BY ORSON WELLES documentary prologue, Steve Flick,
who owned the sound facility that did all the osund work, stuck his
head in the door, listened a second and said "Cancun," which is where
that interview was taped. Catherine Benamou and I expressed
astonishment, and he said, "That's what the ocean sounds like in
Cancun." Steve was wont to cite Proust in talking about the
psychological and emotional resonances of certain sounds.
4978
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 5:25am
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
In POINT BLANK, a film which has come up recently, Walker (Lee Marvin)
know he is being set up by Carter, who has hired a sniper to kill
Walker from long distance. Carter claims Walker can get his money by
walking out into the open. Walker asks Carter to do it, so Carter
walks down into the open and the sniper mistakes him for Walker.
Carter dies trying to get the sniper's attention and tell him that he's
not Walker.
oscar
On Dec 4, 2003, at 2:08 AM, apmartin90 wrote:
> Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with encyclopedic
> memories of decisive plot moves can help me with this query!
>
> I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
> inevitably be killed.
>
> The two key examples I am thinking of are in SCARFACE (both
> versions, I think) - where Montana arranges for a guy to receive a
> call while he (Montana) is present, and the villain's answer
> incriminates him as guilty - and in THE BIG SLEEP where Bogart
> forces a guy out the door, knowing that there are henchmen
> outside ordered to kill the next person (who is meant to be
> Bogart) who emerges.
>
> So, my question: can anyone think of other variations on this kind
> of plot move?
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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>
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4979
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sound advice from group
> This article is some kind of reductio ad absurdum of complaints about
> sound inconsistencies:
>
> www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2002/06/13/ornithology/index.html
>
> Or does he have a point?
I'm sympathetic to this guy's complaint. As a childhood astronomy buff,
it bothers me that you almost never see real constellations when
filmmakers show you the sky. - Dan
4980
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: sound advice from group
>>...The trouble is that no one ever wants to dirty it up later! ...
>
> Well, but isn't the other side of this those "direct sound"
> documentaries and low-budget features in which the dialogue is nearly
> incomprehensible? Production stills showing the use of shotgun mikes
> under huge windscreens in small interior spaces suggest that sometimes
> they have failed to use the best tool for the job. I'm talking about the
> 60s and early 70s, not today, but Dan, you have more sound film
> production experience than I have; can you comment?
Fred: maybe I'm missing your point, but it's certaintly a potential
problem when you break the rules and record it dirty. You have to have
a healthy respect for craft in order to make good decisions about when
to say no to the craftspeople working on your film.
Those muddy documentary sound tracks probably supplied the associations
that underlie our ideas today about "natural sound." - Dan
4981
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:36pm
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
The first that comes to mind is "Point Blank." A
number of people die because of Lee Marvin's revenge
campaign but he never kills any of them directly.
--- apmartin90 wrote:
> Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with
> encyclopedic
> memories of decisive plot moves can help me with
> this query!
>
> I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character
> (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another
> character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by
> setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they
> will
> inevitably be killed.
>
> The two key examples I am thinking of are in
> SCARFACE (both
> versions, I think) - where Montana arranges for a
> guy to receive a
> call while he (Montana) is present, and the
> villain's answer
> incriminates him as guilty - and in THE BIG SLEEP
> where Bogart
> forces a guy out the door, knowing that there are
> henchmen
> outside ordered to kill the next person (who is
> meant to be
> Bogart) who emerges.
>
> So, my question: can anyone think of other
> variations on this kind
> of plot move?
>
> Adrian
>
>
__________________________________
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4982
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:46pm
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
CHARLIE VARRICK
4983
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 8:07pm
Subject: McBain!
Is James Glickenhaus an action auteur? I caught the trailer for his
SMACKDOWN (1988) on a tape of THE CHOIRBOYS (more on that one later,
guys). I wonder if any of his films are worth seeing. After all, this
is the guy who directed McBAIN, which I'll always associate with The
Simpsons -- starring Christopher Walken as McBain. Also his THE
EXTERMINATOR -- which has a gritty, post-apocalyptic vision of NYC --
predates ESCAPE FROM NY by a year. TIMEMASTER was his last film. It
sounds like a crappy version of EXPLORERS. Or not, I don't know (IMDb
users seem to like it).
Gabe
4984
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: sound advice from group
Dan Sallitt wrote
>...Those muddy documentary sound tracks ...
>
No, that is my point, just to mention that the "other" method has been
used too.
This is a little outside of the scope of our group, perhaps, but why
would anyone use a shotgun mike and windscreen in an enclosed room?
- Fred
4985
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: sound advice from group
> This is a little outside of the scope of our group, perhaps, but why
> would anyone use a shotgun mike and windscreen in an enclosed room?
Don't know about the windscreen, but on my first movie the only mike was
a shotgun.... No, the sound wasn't very good, thanks for asking.
I suppose there might be some aesthetic reason for having very
directional sound in a room. Maybe the filmmaker might want the
off-screen dialogue to die away severely. More likely the camera crew
had just come in off the street and were working too quickly to get
everything right.
My understanding is that a windscreen doesn't have too much of a bad
effect on the sound, so the filmmakers may not have paid very dearly for
that oversight. - Dan
4986
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:23pm
Subject: Re: McBain!
> Is James Glickenhaus an action auteur? I caught the trailer for his
> SMACKDOWN (1988) on a tape of THE CHOIRBOYS (more on that one later,
> guys). I wonder if any of his films are worth seeing. After all, this
> is the guy who directed McBAIN, which I'll always associate with The
> Simpsons -- starring Christopher Walken as McBain. Also his THE
> EXTERMINATOR -- which has a gritty, post-apocalyptic vision of NYC --
> predates ESCAPE FROM NY by a year. TIMEMASTER was his last film. It
> sounds like a crappy version of EXPLORERS. Or not, I don't know (IMDb
> users seem to like it).
There was a point in time when my 1000-word reviews of THE EXTERMINATOR
and THE SOLDIER in the LA and Chicago Readers probably constituted 100%
of the world's Glickenhaus scholarship. But I've lost touch: SHAKEDOWN
was the last of his films that I saw. THE EXTERMINATOR gave me the
sense that he was actually a decent character-oriented director stranded
in the action genre, but then he started taking action seriously, and I
didn't like the films as much. Dave Kehr liked THE SOLDIER better than
I did, as I recall. I can't remember SHAKEDOWN that well, but it had
some virtues, and it had Sam Elliott, which always helps. It's probably
the best one, though if you grade on a curve THE EXTERMINATOR is the
best relative to what it should have been. - Dan
4987
From: samfilms2003
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:35pm
Subject: Re: sound advice from group: Shotgun mic
> > This is a little outside of the scope of our group, perhaps, but why
> > would anyone use a shotgun mike and windscreen in an enclosed room?
This says it much better than I could:
http://www.schoeps.de/E/overview-mic-types.html#shotgun
(Scroll down to "Shotgun Microphones")
Schoeps are the Gold standard for film sound recording
As fow the windscreen, perhaps the mixer was afraid the boom op would drop it ;-)
-Sam
4988
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 11:34pm
Subject: Re: Quelles sont nos taches sur le front culterel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> Paul, I'm very happy you are thinking about these things. The fact
> that film criticism passed through an era when form and politics
> were being debated - and sometimes equated - has left all sorts
> of marks on the present which need to be sifted, reactivated,
> questioned or overgone. I keep citing the dead hand of political
> criticism deforming or cutting short criticism in many film
> reviews by members of my generation, but of course there's
> what has happened in the university system, as well. I don't view
> all this stuff as a negative intrusion on esthetics, although I'm
> sure some in the group do, but it is taking the place of
> something better that can only come about if we question the
> heritage that has dumped all these bones on the beach.
By the way -- I noticed Comolli wrote an essay, "Pour un
cinema pauvre," in last month's Cahiers. Thierry Jousse disagrees
in the Novemeber issue.
Paul
4989
From:
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:45pm
Subject: Fritz Lang Friday on TCM
This Friday (tomorrow) Turner Classic Movies in the USA will be showing 7
films, in honor of Fritz Lang's birthday. They are:
Metropolis
M
Fury
You Only Live Once
Hangmen Also Die!
Clash by Night
The Blue Gardenia
TCM has been showing the beautifully restored Munich Archive version of
Metropolis: it is the best I've ever seen.
Fury and The Blue Gardenia are also favorites of mine.
Mike Grost
PS In "DC Cab", Gary Busey announces "I don't work on Elvis' birthday!" I
will be working tomorrow - but I'll sure be thinking of the great Fritz Lang!
4990
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 1:28am
Subject: Sound: "What did they say?"
I know I'm not the only one but this is a topic critics never seem
to address: in many "modern" films I have difficulty understanding
the dialogue (I'm talking about mostly mainstream movies, not "direct-
sound" documentaries) and I have been wondering to what extent that
might be a result of the religion of "natural" sound (overwhelming
background noise for realistic effect; sloppy, "life-like" delivery
by actors...) Another explanation would be that I'm growing deaf, but
then why do I understand every single world in most or all pre-1970
movies?... A few weeks ago I watched a DVD of Nicole Garcia's PLACE
VENDOME (1998) and most of the dialogue was mumbled so fast and
indistinctly that I (a Frenchman!) had to resort to the English
subtitles to figure out what was going on. A fairly recent American
film whose title I forget was so messy dialogue-wise that I stopped
the DVD after about twenty minutes. (the person who watched with me
in both cases felt the same -- we kept asking each other "What did he
say?" "What did she say?"
Maybe Altman did a serious disservice to film when he pioneered multi-
track recording and multi conversations going on at the same time,
and insisting that it doesn't matter if the audience misses part of
the dialogue (I found his Gosford Park really hard to follow...)
On the other hand I understand every word of Rohmer's "direct" or
pseudo-direct sound in LE RAYON VERT...
JPC
4991
From:
Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:40pm
Subject: Re: Sound: "What did they say?"; Gosford Park
JPC took the words right out of my mouth!
I too find pre-1970 movies often far easier to listen to and understand.
And do not understand technically why this is so.
Worst offender: Kenneth Branagh's "Hamlet". There was so much background
music, that the dialogue was drowned out. And I've read the play, seen it on
stage, seen the Olivier and Zefferelli versions.
But when Bette Davis and Claude Rains say their dialogue in an old Warner
Brothers movie, even word comes through loud and clear.
Not to mention everyone in Preminger's "A Royal Scandal" and "Where the
Sidewalk Ends", which I just saw (both are terrific!).
As for "Gosford Park" - this is a movie with serious exposition problems. It
is a good movie. But the first time I tried to watch it, I gave up. The
characters and their relationships seemed completely incomprehensible. A few weeks
later, a second try was made. This time I enjoyed the film very much. But I am
still unclear on who most of the "upstairs" characters are - other than Maggie
Smith, the Ivor Novello character, and the lord of the manor. The servants
"downstairs" are far clearer, and they turn out to be the most imporrtant people
in the film, anyway.
Mike Grost
PS In the movie spoof "Pandemonium", Carol Kane delivers a key piece of
dialogue near the start of the film. A flashing subtitle shows the word
"EXPOSITION" below her. Many modern films could use a lot more exposition. Be honest now
- no one can understand what is going on in many Tarkovsky films without
reading critical commentaries on them. They all would be improved with Reed Hadley
doing narration, like he did for all those old 1940's crime movies.
- Puzzled in Detroit
4992
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:11am
Subject: Re: Sound: "What did they say?"; Gosford Park
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> JPC took the words right out of my mouth!
. Be honest now
> - no one can understand what is going on in many Tarkovsky films
without
> reading critical commentaries on them. They all would be improved
with Reed Hadley
> doing narration, like he did for all those old 1940's crime movies.
> - Puzzled in Detroit
We were on the same wavelength until you swerved into
something totally different! Your problem with Tarkovsky has nothing
to do with dialogue beeing hard to understand! Nothing is "going on"
in the traditional movie narrative way in his films. I don't need
critical commentaries of them to enjoy and love them (although I
welcome any commentary that might enhance my understanding and
pleasure). It's like asking "what's going on" in Rimbaud's or Eliot's
poetry. What's going on is the flow of poetry. Just look at "The
Mirror" or "Nostalghia". Who cares to know what's going on in a plot-
oriented sense? The emotions and the beauty are there and isn't that
enough?
JPC
4993
From: heyrocker
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:20am
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "apmartin90" wrote:
> Dear friends - I am hoping those of you with encyclopedic
> memories of decisive plot moves can help me with this query!
>
> I am studying scenes in movies (mostly of the
> action-thriller-crime variety) where one character (usually the
> hero or anti-hero) causes the death of another character (usually
> the villain, mob boss, etc) - but indirectly, by setting them up
> somehow, or forcing them into a situation where they will
> inevitably be killed.
I believe Elaine May's MIKEY AND NICKY is basically a movie-length
version of this theme, its been a while. I remember liking the film
quite a bit, but it seems to have been kind of forgotten. That
closing scene with Peter Falk at the door is burned into my skull.
Johnathan is a fan if I recall.
4995
From:
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 0:01am
Subject: Lang, Preminger, Cukor
Thanks for the tip on those Lang films, Mike!
Pure coincidence, but I just today purchased the DVD of Lang's final film,
"The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse." It's been on my list to purchase for quite a
while, but what finally spurred me to do it was the fact that it is on Fred's
Top
30 movies of all-time (just uploaded to our group's Top 10 section.)
I'm completely out of time at the moment, but here are two unrelated film
questions I put to the group. Why doesn't Preminger's "Carmen Jones" get
more
respect? (Or does it? I'm bad at following what's in fashion.) I saw this
tonight on DVD and thought it a wonderful film; Preminger's gliding camera
moves
and long takes have rarely been as hypnotic. And is the reason why Cukor's
"Two-Faced Woman" gets so little respect due to, as Jean-Pierre puts it in
"American Directors," people's idealized visions of what Garbo's final screen
role
should have been? I can't figure out any other reasons why the film would be
so widely disliked; I thought it was quite good.
So what I'm basically asking is: are there any other particularly big fans of
these two films on the group?
Peter
4996
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 7:32am
Subject: Re: Lang, Preminger, Cukor
I love all three films mentioned. Serge Toubiana wrote a big piece on
Carmen Jones when it was rereleased in France in the 80s. The Cukor
has been neglected, along with about twenty other Cukors.
4997
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 7:33am
Subject: Re: Decisive plot move query
heyrocker wrote: "I believe Elaine May's MIKEY AND NICKY is basically
a movie-length version of this theme, its been a while. I remember
liking the film quite a bit, but it seems to have been kind of
forgotten. That closing scene with Peter Falk at the door is burned
into my skull. Jonathan is a fan if I recall."
He's not alone.
4998
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 7:52am
Subject: Re: Sound advice from members
Random remarks/responses:
Don't forget that contemporaries were shocked by the Chimes at
Midnight soundtrack because some parts are inaudible. (I'm not
talking about the out-of-synch reel, which is apparently just a
mistake.) And of course Altman always got flack from some quarters
for not making the dialogue completely audible. As I recall, industry
and critical resentment of that peaked at the all-media screening of
Popeye, one of my favorite Altmans. Didn't he go back and remix in
response to the complaints?
Neither precedent rules out the possibility that imitators have
created bad soundtracks since.
I had the privilege of working with one of Pialat's sound recordists
in Brazil, and he was brilliant about getting audible sound in
impossible situations, like right next to the sea. Monte Hellman
still talks about the guy who did that for him on Iguana. Filmmakers
like Hellman push the limits, but they don't end up with bad sound,
in no small part thanks to genius craft people. Not everyone is that
lucky, or knows that he/she needs that kind of extra help to get a
good result.
There are 12 seconds of direct sound in Olympia - Hitler's little
kickoff speech at the beginning. Everything else Riefenstahl created
in post-production with primitive technology. On the visual front,
3/4 of her rushes were unusable.
I listened to Cold Mountain tonight - Murch mixed as well as edited
the film. He's a genius at creating sound perspectives. And at
editing. The battle at the beginning is his tribute to Chimes at
Midnight. Not as good, of course, but way better than standard
Hollywood action.
4999
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 8:13am
Subject: Re: Lang, Preminger, Cukor
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
Why doesn't Preminger's "Carmen Jones" get
> more
> respect? (Or does it? I'm bad at following what's in fashion.) I
saw this
> tonight on DVD and thought it a wonderful film; Preminger's gliding
camera
> moves
> and long takes have rarely been as hypnotic.
In his seminal book, Film As Film, V.F. Perkins writes fascinatingly
about the sequence in Carmen Jones where Dandridge comes on to
Belafonte in the jeep and how Preminger's framing and cutting
constitute film language at its most meaningful.
5000
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 8:23am
Subject: PLAYTIME
As PLAYTIME was mentioned recently, Angelenos please note that it
will be playing in a "restored" 70mm print at the Egyptian in
Hollywood on January 22nd-24th.
--
- Joe Kaufman
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