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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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5701
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:56pm
Subject: Camp: the definitions
Camp has two completely different meanings.
One is people laughing at what they perceive as bad films. I've done this
too: "Zontar, the Thing from Venus" (Larry Buchanan, 1968) had much of my family
awash in giggles one Saturday afternoon. It is a pathetically bad science
fiction film. This approach to seeing films is badly flawed: It is guaranteed to
make you miss any artistry in movies. It can be recommended only in small doses
(say once a year) and only with films you think are truly awful.
The other kind of camp is when artists deliberately set out to create work
with campy aspects. Here the artist combines abdurdity or mockery with an
imaginative conception. This CAN be interesting.
The Batman TV series (1960's) was deliberately camp. It constantly included
absurd old cliches, which it treated with mock seriousness. I just saw the
movie spin-off of this (Leslie Martinson, 1966) and enjoyed it. The parody is
often quite subtle. When Batman's secret identity, millionaire playboy Bruce Wayne
goes out for a night on the town with an alluring Russian reporter (she works
for the Moscow Gazette), the violinist in the night club they visit is
playing "Plaisir d'amour". This is a song always associated with the dregs of
romantic anguish and bad relationships in films (cf "The Heiress (Wyler) and "Tea
and Sympathy" (Minnelli)). I found myself becoming completely involved with
Bruce Wayne and his problems. It was at once a parody of romantic tragedy, and an
expression of the real thing.
By the way, I find it hard to see "Flaming Creatures" as quite being camp.
Jack Smith LOVES his moviepoids. The element of mockery that I've always
associated with camp just does not seem present in this film, somehow. It is a great
film, and an awesomely beautiful one - the characters keep making dazzling
visual patterns and compositions on the screen.
Mike Grost
5702
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Camp: the definitions
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> By the way, I find it hard to see "Flaming
> Creatures" as quite being camp.
> Jack Smith LOVES his moviepoids. The element of
> mockery that I've always
> associated with camp just does not seem present in
> this film, somehow. It is a great
> film, and an awesomely beautiful one - the
> characters keep making dazzling
> visual patterns and compositions on the screen.
>
Camp isn't really about mockery. Mockery is involved
atsome level of course, but it's always mixed with
admiration. Frank O'Hara genuinely loved Lana Turner
in "The Prodigal."
Charles Ludlam's "Camille" didn't mock Garbo in any
way. It evoked her.
And Garbo is very camp, especially in "As You
DesireMe"and "Susan Lennox: Her Fall and Rise."
__________________________________
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5703
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:28pm
Subject: Re: TEQUILA SUNRISE
The phony psychic in "The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse" (Fritz Lang, 1960)
certainly echoes the earlier phony medium in "Ministry of Fear" (Lang, 1943).
"Ministry of Fear" is the most delightful introduction to Lang's art one can
imagine. Lang's ablity to make unforgettable visual patterns out of the
objects on the screen is at its zenith here. One will always remember the circular
table used by the fake medium.
Mike Grost
PS About all I can remember about TEQUILA SUNRISE is that Kurt Russell
upgraded his wardrobe in it. Before then, he'd often played good old boys in
sweatshirts, etc. In this film, his detective is always wearing sharp suits - very
GQ. He gave interviews about this at the time.
Robert Towne's films always seem overrated, IMHO. Do not understand his huge
rep. Didn't really like Chinatown - it seems much less creative than
Rosemary's Baby, Tess, Two Men and a Wardrobe, Frantic and other Polanski gems.
5704
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:15pm
Subject: Hitchcock trains
That's probably the same for HITCHCOCK. I wonder if such can be said for
most auteurs. I wonder if that 'repetition' contributes to their auteurism?
Indeed, however, are there specific examples.
HITCHCOCK films seem to have trains in them (at least those of the 30's-
50's), often entering / exiting a tunnel long enough to project entering into or
emerging from a darkness, sometimes accompanied by a shreiking train
whistle, as in the 39 STEPS and the transition to the woman's screams when
the dead woman's body is found.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> ER - If you took out the repetitions (of lines, situations, plot
> points), Hawks' oeuvre would be 40 percent shorter than it currently
> is. And it works.
5705
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:33pm
Subject: Sound of Music
It's nice to have such traditions.
I was a busy babysitter when TSOM came out in the sixties and knew
the film
well from repeated viewings long before video and dvd. Everyone
loved it.
I'll look for it again and save it, then I'll watch it sometime when
my husband's
not using the 50 inch big screen ... need to get those mountains in.
I recall Christopher Plummer as the love interest. I think the mores
of the
sixties had to keep the 'romance' at a minimum, as even though
involved in a
love romance, Maria was the most innocent of innocents, she was a
postulate
in a nunnery ...the silhouettes made the romance acceptable to the
nuns.
I like the example of CAMP with "How do you solve a problem like
Maria?"
song during the wedding ceremony. As an example of camp, it can be
offensive to no one and brings out the personal nature of the
elements
involved in campiness. I think campiness today has left the
homosexual
character behind; or else, homosexuals have to share campiness with
all of
society, it can't just belong to homosexuals.
from Merriam Webster
Main Entry: camp Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown Date: circa 1909
1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by
homosexuals
2 : a homosexual displaying camp
3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or
out-of-date
as to be considered amusing
4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical
Once in a discussion of female action heroes, I presented the
question that
action heroes are so 'unreal' even for males, it may be impossible to
imagine
the same for a female and that the female 'action' hero could be
someone like
a nun who uses music to save her family from one of the worst known
villians,
ie, she is Maria in the Sound of Music escaping from the Nazi.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> ER - I watch Sound of Music every Christmas with my sister. It's
one
> of her favorite films.
>
> The scene in question is probably the only song in Sound of Music
> that isn't famous, the duet between Laurence Harvey and Julie
Andrews
> when he finally breaks down and tells her he loves her, and she
> replies. Part of it is sung by silhouettes of their heads, and part
> by full-figure silhouettes symmetrically posed, like one of those
> silhoette cut-out from the 18th Century, against a brilliant
blue-lit
> background. It certainly saves the song from a) its own insipidity
> and b) the lack of chemistry between the co-stars. One of the
nicest
> scenes in the film.
>
> After that they go right to the big "church wedding," with everyone
> in the cathedral singing "How do you solve a riddle like Maria?"
> THAT's camp!
5706
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:52pm
Subject: Re: TEQUILA SUNRISE
You're right about Russell's wardrobe, it clearly was more 'successful'
Hollywood producer than LA detective. I was wondering if anyone else
picked up on that, either audience or characters in the movie? I was
wondering if Russell was on the take and whether he had connections with
Carlos or other drug dealers?
(off topic -- Can someone help me out here: the above sentences which
begin with I was wondering if... are these statements or questions? Do I use
a period or question mark at the end of the sentence that begins with I was
wondering...?)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> PS About all I can remember about TEQUILA SUNRISE is that Kurt Russell
> upgraded his wardrobe in it. Before then, he'd often played good old boys
in
> sweatshirts, etc. In this film, his detective is always wearing sharp suits -
very
> GQ. He gave interviews about this at the time.
> Robert Towne's films always seem overrated, IMHO. Do not understand his
huge
> rep. Didn't really like Chinatown - it seems much less creative than
> Rosemary's Baby, Tess, Two Men and a Wardrobe, Frantic and other
Polanski gems.
5707
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:54pm
Subject: CHINATOWN
CHINATOWN may have had popularity because of the incest topic, still not as
familiar in public society as its apparent occurrence might suggest. I imagine
the "She's my daughter, she's my sister" scene really caught a lot of people
off guard and was 'shocking.'
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Robert Towne's films always seem overrated, IMHO. Do not understand his
huge
> rep. Didn't really like Chinatown - it seems much less creative than
> Rosemary's Baby, Tess, Two Men and a Wardrobe, Frantic and other
Polanski gems.
5708
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59pm
Subject: Ministry of Fear
I just saw The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse; thanks for pointing out the
MINISTRY OF FEAR. I'll look for it.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> The phony psychic in "The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse" (Fritz Lang, 1960)
> certainly echoes the earlier phony medium in "Ministry of Fear" (Lang,
1943).
> "Ministry of Fear" is the most delightful introduction to Lang's art one can
> imagine. Lang's ablity to make unforgettable visual patterns out of the
> objects on the screen is at its zenith here. One will always remember the
circular
> table used by the fake medium.
>
> Mike Grost
5709
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:11am
Subject: Re: A little factual Minnelli/Stuart Byron question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > >
> > > __________________________________Ah, Dolores
> > Gray! Camp again! You
> > must cherish her Madeline in "It's Always Fair
> > Weather".
>
> But of course! I've always said the most important
> contributing factor to homosexuality was exposure to
> Dolores Gray production numbers at an impressionable
> age.
>
When little David was asked "What do you want to be when you
grow up?" he replied "Dolores Gray!" (at least it wasn't Mae West...)
JPC
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
5710
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:25am
Subject: John Boorman (was Silhouettes)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Michael, what did you think of Boorman's autobiography?
I grabbed the Boorman autobiography at Borders and headed to the
instore cafe -the price of the book is a bit prohibitive for me, and
I concentrated on the chapters after "Hope and Glory." A lot of the
earlier chapters appear to have info and insights I have picked up
through interviews with and writings by John Boorman, he authored The
Emerald Forest Diary, titled "Money into Light" outside of the US,
and I've also read Barbara Pallenberg's book "The Making of Exorcist
II: The Heretic". I am not saying that there may be no new insights,
I was just more interested in his writings on his work in the 1990s.
I was therefore very disappointed that he glosses over the
productions of "Beyond Rangoon", "The General" and "The Tailor of
Panama". "Beyond Rangoon" is a major film in my opinion, and I have
thought of adding a new chapter on "Beyond "in my thesis on Boorman.
My thesis on Boorman focuses on the themes of the rebirth and the
cycle of the hero in his films, with the bulk of my analysis
on "Zardoz", "The Emerald Forest", and "Excalibur". I used the
theoretical writings of Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (I know,
Campbell is a questionable choice in some circles of academia) to
further explore the anthropological and mythic ideas in Boorman's
work, and the thesis deals more with theme than cinematic style. My
obsession with Boorman's work grew out of reading Michel Ciment's
book and watching "Zardoz" soon after, and both radically changed my
perceptions on cinema and life. I spent 3 of my 5 years in undergrad
studies immersing myself in everything Boorman and I feel rewarded by
what he wrote to me after receiving my thesis from my dear friend
Jack Angstreich at a screening of "The General" in NYC.
Awhile ago this group spoke about fetishes and how perhaps autuerism
is a type of fetishism itself. Well I must admit that silver/white
haired directors really get my engine running. Boorman, Russell and
Bresson- when they are sporting their long silver hair…!!! Oshima
with his salt and pepper hair, he's hot too.
P.S. Joel Schumacher doesn't do it for me, you have to be a great
filmmaker to get my attention.
5711
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:30am
Subject: Re: Camp: the definitions
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> When Batman's secret identity, millionaire playboy Bruce Wayne
> goes out for a night on the town with an alluring Russian reporter (she works
> for the Moscow Gazette), the violinist in the night club they visit is
> playing "Plaisir d'amour". This is a song always associated with the dregs of
> romantic anguish and bad relationships in films (cf "The Heiress (Wyler) and "Tea
> and Sympathy" (Minnelli)).
Of course, this song was previously (and overwhelmingly) present in LOVE AFFAIR, and "the dregs of romantic anguish and bad relationships," I suppose, could also describe LOVE AFFAIR, as romanticism shades into something like masochism (or is it?) and masochism into something like sadism (or is it?) ... traced by what could be some of the most sublime camera movements in cinema. (Forgive me, I just re-saw it after too many years.) By the way, is it camp -- or something else entirely -- when Dunne cannot understand Boyer's (and Mme Ouspenskaya's) simple French sentences one minute, but sings "Plaisir d'amour" the next?
5712
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:39am
Subject: Re: Camp: the definitions
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Camp has two completely different meanings.
> One is people laughing at what they perceive as bad films. I've
done this
> too: "Zontar, the Thing from Venus" (Larry Buchanan, 1968) had much
of my family
> awash in giggles one Saturday afternoon. It is a pathetically bad
science
> fiction film. This approach to seeing films is badly flawed: It is
guaranteed to
> make you miss any artistry in movies.
True, but what you describe has nothing to do with "camp". Camp
is not synonymous with "very bad" or "laughingly bad". And your
definition is a bit ambiguous. What is "camp" in the example you
give? The bad movie or the attitude of the people who laugh at it? Is
the latter making the former "camp"? Is the film still camp if the
audience fails to see it's ridiculous and don't laugh at it (and
there must have been such "unsophisticated" audiences -- it was made
for them, after all)? Camp supposes a relationship between the object
and the beholder, and it's usually more than just mockery. There's
always an element of affection, or even admiration (ironic, of
course) for the object in the camp attitude, I think. Camp is never
mean. That's one of its redeeming features.
JPC
Mike Grost
5713
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:53am
Subject: Re: Hitchcock trains
Trains are just plain cool to shoot. Lookit what a train did for the Lumiere Bros, and
it's been trains ever since.
P. Adams Sitney pointed out one time that the first thing the Lumiere's camer does is
film its birthplace, and the next thing it does is film its chief rival as most-awesome-
machine: the train !
The relation of moving train-interupting space and camera shutter is so pervasive as
metaphor we could do a whole thread on examples.
(There was such a thread on Frameworks once)
-sam
5714
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:53am
Subject: Tarkovsky's MIRROR A Wrinkle in Time: The Child, Memory and The Mirror
This following citation is available on the internet from
http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/wan/18.1wright.html
Wright, Alan
A Wrinkle in Time: The Child, Memory and The Mirror
Wide Angle - Volume 18, Number 1, January 1996, pp. 47-68 - Article
Childhood in motion pictures.
Memory in motion pictures
Does anyone have access to that site? It's for libraries, students and
academic types.
I need to get myself certified as a life-time student; certainly an MD, PhD
should qualify one for that, but the UCSD system wants something like $1500
year for what would essentially be internet access for someone like me.
5715
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:53am
Subject: Re: CHINATOWN
The incest angle was certianly attention-getting, but
caused "Chinatown" to make sucha splash was the fact
that at thatmoment the Bogart cult of the 1960's had
permeated the culture as a whole. "Knowing" private
eyes were an exciting subject. Moreover, Towne had a
story relating to Los Angeles history. What finally
sealed the deal is the fact that while set in the past
"Chinatown" wasn't an exercise in nostalgia. Nicholson
and Dunaway play characters who were quite
recognizably contemporary in speech and manner. They
would have fit in easily to an Antonioni film -- which
is probably why Antonioni cast Nicholson in "The
Passenger."
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
> CHINATOWN may have had popularity because of the
> incest topic, still not as
> familiar in public society as its apparent
> occurrence might suggest. I imagine
> the "She's my daughter, she's my sister" scene
> really caught a lot of people
> off guard and was 'shocking.'
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>
> > Robert Towne's films always seem overrated, IMHO.
> Do not understand his
> huge
> > rep. Didn't really like Chinatown - it seems much
> less creative than
> > Rosemary's Baby, Tess, Two Men and a Wardrobe,
> Frantic and other
> Polanski gems.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
5716
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:00am
Subject: Re: Hitchcock trains
agreed; but trains were never as popular in USA (ubiquitous personal use car
scenes) movies and Hitchcock certainly preferred the into / out of tunnel
image and metaphor. Almost the whole of EMPEROR OF THE NORTH takes
place with external train footage, and I don't recall a single tunnel scene
though several span bridges.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> Trains are just plain cool to shoot. Lookit what a train did for the Lumiere
Bros, and
> it's been trains ever since.
>
> P. Adams Sitney pointed out one time that the first thing the Lumiere's
camer does is
> film its birthplace, and the next thing it does is film its chief rival as most-
awesome-
> machine: the train !
>
> The relation of moving train-interupting space and camera shutter is so
pervasive as
> metaphor we could do a whole thread on examples.
>
> (There was such a thread on Frameworks once)
>
> -sam
5717
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:02am
Subject: Re: Sound of Music
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
I think campiness today has
> left the
> homosexual
> character behind; or else, homosexuals have to share
> campiness with
> all of
> society, it can't just belong to homosexuals.
Oh yes it can! We're not giving it up without a fight!
>
> from Merriam Webster
> Main Entry: camp Function: noun
> Etymology: origin unknown Date: circa 1909
> 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited
> especially by
> homosexuals
> 2 : a homosexual displaying camp
> 3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected,
> inappropriate, or
> out-of-date
> as to be considered amusing
> 4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or
> theatrical
See? What did I tell you? Webster doesn't get it.
To claim its primary meaning as a "mannerism" is dead
wrong. Camp is an aesthetic sensibility. "Camping" is
a mannerism derived from it.
3 and 4 have nothing to say about Paul Rudnick --
who's far from "out-of-date" -- or Todd ahynes for
that matter. Every inch of "Far From Heaven" is
"appropriate" to the period in which it is set. That's
the film's wholepoint.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
5718
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:03am
Subject: Re: Camp: the definitions
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
By the way, is it camp -- or something else
entirely -- when Dunne cannot understand Boyer's (and Mme
Ouspenskaya's) simple French sentences one minute, but sings "Plaisir
d'amour" the next?
Not camp. Dunne's character is a professional singer. Lots of
professional singers know and sing the words of songs in foreign
languages they don't understand.
LOVE AFFAIR is not really campy -- it's much too good a movie to be.
AN AFFAIR TO REMEMBER is great too (although i could do with the
atrocious kids endlessly singing) but I wouldn't object too hard if
some people found it at times campy. It has the required elements of
exageration, extreme sentimentality etc... You might say it "camps
up" LOVE AFFAIR.
JPC
5719
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:11am
Subject: I'll camp in the closet!
I knew someone would respond; but hey, I'm ok with that...I'll camp in the
closet!
Still, for me, 'self-consciousness' is a high point of camp. You can keep or
reject all the other definitions.
> --- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
> I think campiness today has
> > left the
> > homosexual
> > character behind; or else, homosexuals have to share
> > campiness with
> > all of
> > society, it can't just belong to homosexuals.
>
> Oh yes it can! We're not giving it up without a fight!
>
> >
> > from Merriam Webster
> > Main Entry: camp Function: noun
> > Etymology: origin unknown Date: circa 1909
> > 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited
> > especially by
> > homosexuals
> > 2 : a homosexual displaying camp
> > 3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected,
> > inappropriate, or
> > out-of-date
> > as to be considered amusing
> > 4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or
> > theatrical
>
> See? What did I tell you? Webster doesn't get it.
> To claim its primary meaning as a "mannerism" is dead
> wrong. Camp is an aesthetic sensibility. "Camping" is
> a mannerism derived from it.
>
> 3 and 4 have nothing to say about Paul Rudnick --
> who's far from "out-of-date" -- or Todd ahynes for
> that matter. Every inch of "Far From Heaven" is
> "appropriate" to the period in which it is set. That's
> the film's wholepoint.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
5720
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:11am
Subject: Re: Sound of Music
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
> I think campiness today has
> > left the
> > homosexual
> > character behind; or else, homosexuals have to share
> > campiness with
> > all of
> > society, it can't just belong to homosexuals.
>
> Oh yes it can! We're not giving it up without a fight!
>
> I sympathize with your fight, David, but are you saying that
not being homosexual disqualifies a person from discussing "camp"
knowledgeably?
Of course Webster got it wrong, but what do you expect? The
concept is much miuch too complex and subtle for a Dictionary
definition. JP
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
5721
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:11am
Subject: Re: CHINATOWN
My role here is to disagree with Mike Grost, otherwise I have few opinions :)
I think there is Polanski/Director (for instance Chinatown) and Polanski/Artist (for
instance Knife in the Water). And he's a very good director, I like Rosemary and
Chinatown both equally (I also like Jack Nicholson's sequel, the only person on the
planet to say so, just like I'm the only person in history now and forever to sorta like
The Moon In The Gutter [it's as strange as David Goodis probably *was* and - I
couldn't stand Diva].
Tess is strange, speaking of... it begins in the first category (Director) and slips into
the second.....
-Sam
> Robert Towne's films always seem overrated, IMHO. Do not understand his huge
> rep. Didn't really like Chinatown - it seems much less creative than
> Rosemary's Baby, Tess, Two Men and a Wardrobe, Frantic and other Polanski gems.
5722
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:22pm
Subject: Polanski's Tess
Sam Wells wrote:
>Tess is strange, speaking of... it begins in the first category (Director)
>and slips into
>the second.....
As usual, I'm behind on reading posts, but I just wanted to quickly say that
I agree here, Sam, and I'm glad to hear "Tess" mentioned at all. I've long
thought it to be the major neglected Polanski film, post-"Chinatown." Of
course, *most* of the post-"Chinatown" films are neglected to varying degrees (until
"The Pianist," that is), but "Tess" strikes me as such a great film that I
always feel the need to speak up for it or agree when someone does speak up for
it.
Kehr, by the way, seems to agree with your assessment of the film somewhat,
writing in his capsule, "This lushly photographed Franco-British production
comes on like an overbudgeted episode of Masterpiece Theatre, but seen in the
context of Roman Polanski's career it becomes something rich and strange, shaded
into terror by the naturalistic absurdism that is the basis of Polanski's
style"
Peter
5723
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:24am
Subject: trains
I think a large part of the appeal of the train to mise-en-scene is not only its natural ability to stand-in for the opening/closing of the shutter and the eye-blink whenever it rushes in and out of a tunnel (a retemporalization of the flicker effect / space between frames), and not only its ability to lend itself to all the tropes of liminality and border-crossing, but also the economy of metaphor (or whatever the direct corollary is to the barely-conscious-metaphor) inherent to the interior and exterior spaces involved -- a single world and stage is encapsulated within its walls, while an outside world goes rushing by -- internal ambience and aura stays the same, while the lunacy of the external world or the poverty of the surroundings (constantly evolving and refreshed) be damned. The Orient Express is a perfect time-capsule. And in Rivette at least, the train of 'Secret defense' (sorry, no accents available as typing from the Web rather than Mac mail program) links the banal and everyday with the unimaginable and/or Maerchen-esque; the physical means of "penetrating/delving into the mystery." Buying the ticket is for Sandrine Bonnaire like an embrace of fate and the foregone, -- and the madness and fluidity in crossing State A to State B is underscored (comes crashing home) in the film by the amount of time devoted to the two journeys: well over twenty minutes each.
craig.
5724
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: A little factual Minnelli/Stuart Byron question
Fred Camper wrote:
>The differences among melodramas and among musicals
>are huge huge, as well as between different comedies -- "Father of the
>Bride" has a lot to do with some of the late 'Scope family melodramas,
I'd agree and apparently so do some others. In the Time Out Film Guide,
Geoff Andrew writes that while the film isn't as great as a "Some Came Running" or
"Two Weeks In Another Town," it's fascinating for its "bleak undercurrents"
which look ahead to the melodramas. Would you rank it as your favorite of the
Minnelli 'comedies', Fred?
Peter
5725
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:38pm
Subject: Lang's Indian films
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>Right here, Peter! Welcome to Le MacMahon!
Thanks! Gee, this is all it takes for admittance?
>Not only do
>they constitute Lang's greatest achievement,
>"Tiger/Tomb" is the rosetta stone of "mise en scene."
>This/these are is/are the film/films in which Lang's
>desire to be an architect is transformed into the
>architecture that only the cinema can devise.
Yes to this and yes to everything Bill says about the use of color in the
films. I'm seeing these just a few weeks after seeing "The 1,000 Eyes of Dr.
Mabuse" - which I also loved and which is a prime example of what a great "late
film" is to me - for the first time. So, at the moment, I'm thinking that
Fritz Lang is the cinema's grand master. What remarkable films!
Peter
5726
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:40am
Subject: Re: Polanski's Tess
Thanks, Peter !
I had that increasing "this isn't where I was expecting to go" feeling as I was watching
it...
-Sam
> Kehr, by the way, seems to agree with your assessment of the film somewhat,
> writing in his capsule, "This lushly photographed Franco-British production
> comes on like an overbudgeted episode of Masterpiece Theatre, but seen in the
> context of Roman Polanski's career it becomes something rich and strange, shaded
> into terror by the naturalistic absurdism that is the basis of Polanski's
> style"
>
> Peter
5727
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:15am
Subject: Re: Polanski's Tess / PRIVATE PROPERTY
Has anyone seen PRIVATE PROPERTY by Elizabeth Dimon? I saw it last
summer at CINEVEGAS. My memory is vague, but I do remember thinking
as I watched this story about predator and prey (produced by Chiarioscuro
Pictures LLC -- always nice looking movies as name implies) that it reminded
me of KNIFE IN THE WATER. In the Q&A, I made the director's day by
sharing that comment as she replied that her idol or mentor or whatever was
Polanski. Incidentally, the main female character is Tess, played by Mirjana
Jokovic of Emir Kusturica's UNDERGROUND.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Sam Wells wrote:
>
> >Tess is strange, speaking of... it begins in the first category (Director)
> >and slips into
> >the second.....
>
> As usual, I'm behind on reading posts, but I just wanted to quickly say that
> I agree here, Sam, and I'm glad to hear "Tess" mentioned at all. I've long
> thought it to be the major neglected Polanski film, post-"Chinatown." Of
> course, *most* of the post-"Chinatown" films are neglected to varying
degrees (until
> "The Pianist," that is), but "Tess" strikes me as such a great film that I
> always feel the need to speak up for it or agree when someone does speak
up for
> it.
>
> Kehr, by the way, seems to agree with your assessment of the film
somewhat,
> writing in his capsule, "This lushly photographed Franco-British production
> comes on like an overbudgeted episode of Masterpiece Theatre, but seen
in the
> context of Roman Polanski's career it becomes something rich and strange,
shaded
> into terror by the naturalistic absurdism that is the basis of Polanski's
> style"
>
> Peter
5728
From: jaketwilson
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:37am
Subject: definitions of camp
The definition Andrew Ross quotes in his book NO RESPECT: "To be camp
is to present oneself as committed to the marginal with a commitment
greater than the marginal merits." That's probably too neat, but
quite interesting to think about.
Elizabeth, then David:
> I think campiness today has left the homosexual character behind;
or else, homosexuals have to share campiness with all of society, it
can't just belong to homosexuals.
> Oh yes it can! We're not giving it up without a fight!
I've wondered about this. Even today a full-blown camp sensibility
rarely seems to be an option for straight males -- most of the time,
the closest equivalent is probably the kind of SF fandom (what might
be called, non-perjoratively, "geek culture") which gets expressed in
a movie like MARS ATTACKS! That doesn't threaten sexual identities in
the same way, but when it's interesting it still involves "commitment
to the marginal" -- otherwise it just turns into the kind of smarmy
cretinism which TV is always trying to persuade us is hip. Like Kevin
Smith.
"Camp is never mean"? Maybe not, but it can sure be bitchy.
JTW
5729
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:57am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
I never thought of camp as being sexually limited, explicit though it may be.
The recently produced NOSFERATU film of a few years back was treated as a
camp experience the opening night in AUSTIN FF when a section of audience
(dressed in black gothic garb) laughed throughout the screening. The
director could only thank them for their enjoyment, but I think the prevailing
laughter took the more general audience a bit farther out of the movie than
expected.
I like the marginalness of camp and will add it to my "self-consciousness"
appeal; but camp should never be mean-spirited...it's meant to entertain.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jaketwilson" wrote:
> The definition Andrew Ross quotes in his book NO RESPECT: "To be camp
> is to present oneself as committed to the marginal with a commitment
> greater than the marginal merits." That's probably too neat, but
> quite interesting to think about.
>
> Elizabeth, then David:
>
> > I think campiness today has left the homosexual character behind;
> or else, homosexuals have to share campiness with all of society, it
> can't just belong to homosexuals.
>
> > Oh yes it can! We're not giving it up without a fight!
>
> I've wondered about this. Even today a full-blown camp sensibility
> rarely seems to be an option for straight males -- most of the time,
> the closest equivalent is probably the kind of SF fandom (what might
> be called, non-perjoratively, "geek culture") which gets expressed in
> a movie like MARS ATTACKS! That doesn't threaten sexual identities in
> the same way, but when it's interesting it still involves "commitment
> to the marginal" -- otherwise it just turns into the kind of smarmy
> cretinism which TV is always trying to persuade us is hip. Like Kevin
> Smith.
>
> "Camp is never mean"? Maybe not, but it can sure be bitchy.
>
> JTW
5730
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:58am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jaketwilson" wrote:
> The definition Andrew Ross quotes in his book NO RESPECT: "To be
camp
> is to present oneself as committed to the marginal with a
commitment
> greater than the marginal merits." That's probably too neat, but
> quite interesting to think about.
>
>
>
>
> JTW
A fine definition as far as it goes. But I keep insisting
that any discussion of Camp can only lead to confusion unless we
agree on a distinction between the OBJECT -- be it a movie, a
painting, a lamp, a dress or whatever -- and the ATTITUDE of the
person in her relationship to the object.
And that said, I probably should drop out and go back to writing
my memoirs instead.
JPC
5731
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
I have been led to confusion and made to drink. And now you drop out...
jpcoursodon wrote:
> I keep insisting
> that any discussion of Camp can only lead to confusion unless we
> agree on a distinction between the OBJECT -- be it a movie, a
> painting, a lamp, a dress or whatever -- and the ATTITUDE of the
> person in her relationship to the object.
> And that said, I probably should drop out and go back to writing
> my memoirs instead.
>
>
5732
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:05am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
camp2 Audio pronunciation of camp
( P ) Pronunciation Key
<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html> (k mp)
n.
1. An affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly
thought to be artificial, vulgar, or banal.
2. Banality, vulgarity, or artificiality when deliberately affected
or when appreciated for its humor: "Camp is popularity plus
vulgarity plus innocence" (Indra Jahalani).
adj.
Having deliberately artificial, vulgar, banal, or affectedly
humorous qualities or style: played up the silliness of their roles
for camp effect.
v. camped, camp·ing, camps
v. intr.
To act in a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or banal way.
v. tr.
To give a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or banal quality to:
camped up their cowboy costumes with chaps, tin stars, and
ten-gallon hats.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin unknown.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
camp y adj.
Source
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=ahd4>: The
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
camp
adj : providing sophisticated amusement by virtue of having artificially
(and vulgarly) mannered or banal or sentimental qualities; "they played
up the silliness of their roles for camp effect"; "campy Hollywood
musicals of the 1940's" [syn: campy
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=campy>]
Source
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn>:
WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5733
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:16pm
Subject: Re: Camp: the Definitions
To Sam Wells: I never mind being disagreed with - I only learn new things
when people say something I do not know!
We ARE in agreement on "Tess" - as my post said, it is a good film. Have not
seen it since 1981, when it showed up at the local multiplex. Remember it as
grim, but a real work of art.
To: Jess L. Amortell. Thanks for the information of "Love Affair" and
"Plaisir d'amour"! Have never seen "Love Affair." In fact, my McCarey skills are
badly in need of basic screenings. Until joining a_film_by, and reading all the
posts from everybody describing McCarey as a favorite director, he was largely
someone I hadn't seen much. Really liked "Ruggles of Red Gap" and "Going My
Way"...
Mike Grost
5734
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:40am
Subject: Merriam-Webster Camp redefinition
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> See? What did I tell you? Webster doesn't get it.
> To claim its primary meaning as a "mannerism" is dead
> wrong. Camp is an aesthetic sensibility.
For the record, the recently published Eleventh Edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, while retaining the first three definitions, expands and somewhat aestheticizes -- even cinematizes -- the last one, amending it from "something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical" to: "a style or mode of personal or creative expression that is absurdly exaggerated and often fuses elements of high and popular culture ".
5736
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:44am
Subject: Re: Merriam-Webster Camp redefinition
Nope. Still off.
Camp is not style. It's content. Moreover they're
still describing "camping" -- not Camp.
Amateurs!
--- jess_l_amortell wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > See? What did I tell you? Webster doesn't get it.
>
> > To claim its primary meaning as a "mannerism" is
> dead
> > wrong. Camp is an aesthetic sensibility.
>
> For the record, the recently published Eleventh
> Edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, while
> retaining the first three definitions, expands and
> somewhat aestheticizes -- even cinematizes -- the
> last one, amending it from "something
> self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical" to: "a
> style or mode of personal or creative expression
> that is absurdly exaggerated and often fuses
> elements of high and popular culture
> celebrates camp>".
>
>
>
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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5737
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:46am
Subject: Re: Re: Camp: the Definitions
"Plaisr d"Amour" appears in Rivette's "La Religieuse"
too.
Lisolette Pulver teches it to Anna Karina the better
to seduce her.
Nothing camp there either.
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> To Sam Wells: I never mind being disagreed with - I
> only learn new things
> when people say something I do not know!
> We ARE in agreement on "Tess" - as my post said, it
> is a good film. Have not
> seen it since 1981, when it showed up at the local
> multiplex. Remember it as
> grim, but a real work of art.
> To: Jess L. Amortell. Thanks for the information of
> "Love Affair" and
> "Plaisir d'amour"! Have never seen "Love Affair." In
> fact, my McCarey skills are
> badly in need of basic screenings. Until joining
> a_film_by, and reading all the
> posts from everybody describing McCarey as a
> favorite director, he was largely
> someone I hadn't seen much. Really liked "Ruggles of
> Red Gap" and "Going My
> Way"...
>
> Mike Grost
>
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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5738
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:47am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
Still circling 'round but never diving in.
Camp is an intellectual and aesthetic (and therefore
moral) response to the world.
It is entirely political.
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> camp2 Audio pronunciation of camp
>
>
> ( P ) Pronunciation Key
>
<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html>
> (k mp)
> n.
>
> 1. An affectation or appreciation of manners and
> tastes commonly
> thought to be artificial, vulgar, or banal.
> 2. Banality, vulgarity, or artificiality when
> deliberately affected
> or when appreciated for its humor: "Camp is
> popularity plus
> vulgarity plus innocence" (Indra Jahalani).
>
>
> adj.
>
> Having deliberately artificial, vulgar, banal,
> or affectedly
> humorous qualities or style: played up the
> silliness of their roles
> for camp effect.
>
>
> v. camped, camp·ing, camps
> v. intr.
>
> To act in a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or
> banal way.
>
>
> v. tr.
>
> To give a deliberately artificial, vulgar, or
> banal quality to:
> camped up their cowboy costumes with chaps, tin
> stars, and
> ten-gallon hats.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Origin unknown.]
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> camp y adj.
> Source
>
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=ahd4>:
> The
> American Heritage® Dictionary of the English
> Language, Fourth Edition
> Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
>
>
> camp
>
> adj : providing sophisticated amusement by virtue of
> having artificially
> (and vulgarly) mannered or banal or sentimental
> qualities; "they played
> up the silliness of their roles for camp effect";
> "campy Hollywood
> musicals of the 1940's" [syn: campy
> <http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=campy>]
>
>
> Source
>
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn>:
>
> WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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5739
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:55am
Subject: Re: trains
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> I think a large part of the appeal of the train to
> mise-en-scene is not only its natural ability to
> stand-in for the opening/closing of the shutter and
> the eye-blink whenever it rushes in and out of a
> tunnel (a retemporalization of the flicker effect /
> space between frames), and not only its ability to
> lend itself to all the tropes of liminality and
> border-crossing, but also the economy of metaphor
> (or whatever the direct corollary is to the
> barely-conscious-metaphor) inherent to the interior
> and exterior spaces involved -- a single world and
> stage is encapsulated within its walls, while an
> outside world goes rushing by -- internal ambience
> and aura stays the same, while the lunacy of the
> external world or the poverty of the surroundings
> (constantly evolving and refreshed) be damned. The
> Orient Express is a perfect time-capsule.
That's exactly what happens in the first 3/4s of my
favorite film of all-time, "Those Who Love Me Can Take
the Train" particularly at the pivotal moment when
everyone looks out the window to see the car carrying
the coffin with the deceased in it rushes by on the
road alongside the tracks as Jeff Buckleysinging "The
Last Goodbye" plays on the soundtrack full blast.
And in
> Rivette at least, the train of 'Secret defense'
> (sorry, no accents available as typing from the Web
> rather than Mac mail program) links the banal and
> everyday with the unimaginable and/or
> Maerchen-esque; the physical means of
> "penetrating/delving into the mystery." Buying the
> ticket is for Sandrine Bonnaire like an embrace of
> fate and the foregone, -- and the madness and
> fluidity in crossing State A to State B is
> underscored (comes crashing home) in the film by the
> amount of time devoted to the two journeys: well
> over twenty minutes each.
>
And what's most interesting there is that during the
train journey Bonnaire decides to take revenge against
those who killed her father. This isn't explained to
us in dialogue we SEE her change as we take the ride
with her.
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5740
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:58am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
I guess camp is about "being in on the joke".
I have always percieved camp as something unintentionally funny, and
often when watching camp questioned how was it possible to be serious
while making it and believing in what they made was of quality. Did
Corman ever shake his head and think that the audience would laugh
themselves silly when making "Monster from the Haunted Sea"? If not,
then it is camp, as the humour is unintentional.
But as JPC asked, "Is the film still camp if the audience fails to see
it's ridiculous and don't laugh at it?" (not adressing my definition
of camp, but camp in general)
I remember a while ago discussing "Showgirls", because Todd Haynes
told a friend that he should watch it. Both Haynes and John Waters
love the film, because it is camp. While the debate got heated, Waters
noted, that to understand "Showgirls" and appreciate it fully, one had
to "be in on the joke".
If "camp" is unintentionally funny, then it cant be code, since sender
in most cases don't share the notion of comedy, thus camp must rely
solely on the recieve, here the audience. But using the lexical
definition Tag posted and the notion from Waters, it is code and we
have to understand the code (be in on the joke) in order to appreciate
the camp-ness.
And still...
If Waters is correct, is camp them not some intellectual in-joke,
where the artist diciphers the code, only to laugh at the audience for
not understanding it, or to have the joke for himself?
Is camp accessable at all? How does one get "in on the joke"?
Henrik
5741
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:19am
Subject: Camp
For those who are interested enough to read a chunk of writing, here is
UCLA musicologist Mitchell Morris, working toward a three-part
definition of camp in the middle of a chapter on Dolly Parton in a book
on 70s music. - Dan
======
The practices covered by this term are various, and the word is
resistant to straightforward definition. It has been the subject of a
long and varied tradition of inquiry from Isherwood through Sontag and
on into a great deal of interesting recent work; but for the purposes of
this chapter I’ll highlight some of its features most useful for a
consideration of Parton and her music. (The choice of points central to
camp is my own, and made especially for the purposes of discussing camp
in music; camp in the visual arts or theater or film might well require
a different selection.)
First and most important, camp is a way of making a relationship between
an object or person and what was in historical terms originally a gay
audience. It may be, as Eve Sedgewick says, that “The typifying gesture
of camp is really something amazingly simple: the moment at which a
consumer of culture makes the wild surmise, ‘What if whoever made this
was gay too?’” An important part of camp reading is located in the
interpreter’s attempts to show how an underlying gayness is to be
revealed in the camp performance or object. This practice of reading
makes camp is like nothing awfully close to the old Russian and Soviet
tradition of Aesopian language: there is a basic assumption that
manifest content must always take a back seat to latent content, and
that since interests of a particular group of readers is assumed to
govern the text, those interests receive priority in a reading over
those of other groups. Such a point of view does not necessarily deny
that other readings are there, of course. In fact, the camp reading is
always eminently deniable, given enough willingness of non-camp
audiences to overlook its possibility. The brilliantly camp can just as
easily be the cloying, the twee, the bathetic, the pretentious. But
since camp, like Aesopian language, inheres in the relation between
artist and audience, the reading that provides the best fit between the
subject position of the audience (or segment of audience) and its
presumptions about that of the author is the primary reading, and it
offers the most useful guidance to interpreting the tone of a work or
its constituent parts.
Second, as part of this process, there is nearly always an emphasis on
performance, on the presentation of a self, in such a way that attention
is drawn to the ways a given performance fails. The best camp is nearly
always about mistakes or imperfections, about the incongruity between
accident and essence, or what is projected and what underlies it. These
flaws need not be about ugliness, because the failures of taste and
demeanor that constitute social errors are just as effective. The
campiest drag is that which treads the fine line between perfect mimcry
and giving itself away. If that drag bases itself on the already
stylized image of a great movie icon or chanteuse, it may give itself
away more extravagantly. This is principal underlies the humor in such
rarefied spectacles as the Ballet de Trocadero de Monte Carlo, or the
drag opera troupe La gran scena; and the camp is all the more effective
in these cases because the exagerrated drag is coupled with an
astonishingly high degree of technical skill (in dancing en pointe and
in genuine diva-singing, respectively).
Third, it follows that aesthetic failures must make the best camp.
Although camp is often said to have something to do with the triumph of
style over substance, the aesthetic of failure suggests the
opposite—that substance, when it breaks the style, is what matters most.
Related to this is the attraction of camp aesthetics to seemingly
outworn aesthetic objects. Andrew Ross has written that
The camp effect...is created not simply by a change in the mode of
cultural production (and the contradictions attendant on such a change),
but rather when the products of a much earlier mode of production. .
.which has lost its power to produce and dominate cultural meanings,
become available, in the present, for redefinition according to
contemporary codes of taste.
If something is aesthetically outmoded, its conventions are all the more
visible, and if they are just passé enough to seem somewhat embarassing,
the failure they represent can be reinterpreted as the triumph of the
essence, of the personality. At the same time, the obviousness of the
conventions employed can efficiently hint at the gay subtexts so easily
found in the camp work’s latent content. Camp claps its hand loudly to
show that it believes in essences. This is one way of understanding the
horrific charm of the later Judy Garland. It is also a strong current in
Dolly Parton’s comedic portrayal of the triumph of trashiness.
5742
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:39am
Subject: "I was wondering" sentences...
...are statements. use a period.
5743
From:
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48pm
Subject: McCarey
Mike Grost wrote:
>Until joining a_film_by, and reading all the
>posts from everybody describing McCarey as a favorite director, he was
>largely
>someone I hadn't seen much.
We're fortunate to have a number of great McCarey scholars on this group.
Two of them who have published articles on his work available online are Damien
Bona and Tag Gallagher; their essays contain superb insights into McCarey's
cinema.
Damien's
http://www.24fpsmagazine.com/Archive/McCarey.html
Tag's:
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast/firstrelease/fr1201/tgfr13a.htm
McCarey is certainly one of my top five or so favorite filmmakers. My
favorite film of his is probably "Make Way For Tomorrow" - no film, not even those
by Ozu, manages to be as heartbreaking in a depiction of not only the elderly
but the relations between old parents and their children. The film is a
masterpiece and McCarey has directed more than one.
Peter
5744
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:48am
Subject: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
I have seen several melodramas from 1950 at the Castro Theater here
in San Francisco, and there is always a large part of the audience
that comes geared up to laugh. (And laugh they do, so loud as to make
sure that no one in the audience has a different appreciation of the
material then they do.)
The best example of this was a screening of "Picnic". There were tons
of laughter over the pain and humiliation suffered by Rosalind
Russell's character; I guess it was camp by association with "Auntie
Mame", and tons of snickering towards William Holden's performance.
I got into a defense of Holden's performance after the film for the
people who I went with, who also decided at some point to laugh,
criticized Holden for being too old for the role and too over the
top. I pointed out that Holden's character WAS an older man trying
to hold on to his youth and that his performance reflected the
desperation and exaggeration of the character.
"The Bad and The Beautiful" was also laughed off the screen by the
hip and arch audience at the Castro, especially the heartbreaking
scene of Lana Turner breaking down as she was driving. The emotional
explosion in that scene is unforgettable, especially with Minnelli's
camerawork, but an older camp queen in the center of the audience
proclaimed it camp and snickered the scene away. ( Everyone's pain
is a camp queen's fodder for a laugh, except their own of course.)
There is a song from Pansy Division called "Negative Queen" and the
first two lines of the lyrics I believe are: "Thinks he's Oscar
Wilde, but he's more Paul Lynde". Sometimes camp is the state of ONE
person's mind.
5745
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:58am
Subject: JPC's Memoirs?
You too? I want to talk to my agent...
5746
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:11am
Subject: Camp
These various attempts at definition aren't helping me, although the
one Dan pasted in (if accurate) was the most understandable. The word
had a generally accepted meaning in the 60s, but I think it was the
wrong one, and I've never been sure what the right one was. Sontag's
article, which I haven't read in quite awhile, didn't stay with me -
quite possibly my fault.
At this point, I would like to know the history of the word in some
detail. Is there a good source on that?
5747
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:13am
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
wrote:
> I have seen several melodramas from 1950 at the Castro Theater here
> in San Francisco, and there is always a large part of the audience
> that comes geared up to laugh. (And laugh they do, so loud as to
make
> sure that no one in the audience has a different appreciation of
the
> material then they do.)
>
> The best example of this was a screening of "Picnic". There were
tons
> of laughter over the pain and humiliation suffered by Rosalind
> Russell's character; I guess it was camp by association
with "Auntie
> Mame", and tons of snickering towards William Holden's
performance.
> I got into a defense of Holden's performance after the film for the
> people who I went with, who also decided at some point to laugh,
> criticized Holden for being too old for the role and too over the
> top. I pointed out that Holden's character WAS an older man trying
> to hold on to his youth and that his performance reflected the
> desperation and exaggeration of the character.
>
> "The Bad and The Beautiful" was also laughed off the screen by the
> hip and arch audience at the Castro, especially the heartbreaking
> scene of Lana Turner breaking down as she was driving. The
emotional
> explosion in that scene is unforgettable, especially with
Minnelli's
> camerawork, but an older camp queen in the center of the audience
> proclaimed it camp and snickered the scene away. ( Everyone's pain
> is a camp queen's fodder for a laugh, except their own of course.)
>
> There is a song from Pansy Division called "Negative Queen" and the
> first two lines of the lyrics I believe are: "Thinks he's Oscar
> Wilde, but he's more Paul Lynde". Sometimes camp is the state of
ONE
> person's mind.
Michael this is unfortunately the dark side of the "camp
sensibility". For this reason it is not advisable to go see old
movies at the Castro (I've been there). I hope I don't sound
homophobic when i say that I suffered through quite a few such a
screening in the past (mostly in New York). If, to use just one mild
example, someone in a thirties movies used the word "gay" (and I'm
not thinking about Grant in "Bringing Up Baby")you could expect half
the house to scream with laughter.For no other reason than loudly
letting the rest of us know "We're gay, you know." Needless to say,
some of my best friends are... Still, I could have done without the
flag-waving.
JPC
5748
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:14am
Subject: Re: JPC's Memoirs?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> You too? I want to talk to my agent...
I still don't have one. Maybe you can recommend yours...
JP
5749
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:21am
Subject: Chinatown
It's a beautiful movie. As a personal statement I think it's about
Polanski's relationship to Hollywood. Much of what he is
feeling/saying is in the light.
Structurally, it's "What?", his most abstract film. Both are divided
in two parts by a symbolic castration - Nicholson's nose getting
slit, Sidney Rome's leg getting painted blue - after which images
from part one are repeated with variations in part two, revealing
their "meaning" on the second go-round, since the story is a mystery.
In "What?" the repetition is purely formal, like music.
Films divided in two by a symbolic castration include Tristana, A
Clockwork Orange and Vertigo, which is the major influence on
Chinatown. This seems to be a structure that arose intuitively in the
70s work of three great directors, all of whom had drunk deep at the
well of Hitchcock. Fellini also uses it in Fellini Satyricon, but
doesn't seem to owe it to Hitchcock.
The 70s was a period when old models were being taken apart or coming
apart on their own. This form has something to do with what film is
and how it works, underneath the narrative conventions in force at a
given time.
5750
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:23am
Subject: Re: Camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> These various attempts at definition aren't helping me, although
the
> one Dan pasted in (if accurate) was the most understandable. The
word
> had a generally accepted meaning in the 60s, but I think it was
the
> wrong one, and I've never been sure what the right one was.
Sontag's
> article, which I haven't read in quite awhile, didn't stay with me -
> quite possibly my fault.
>
> At this point, I would like to know the history of the word in some
> detail. Is there a good source on that?
Sontag is really very very good, Bill. Look her up. But no
dictionary definition is going to be satisfactory (I repeat myself,
and the memoirs are waiting. I'm still stuck at "I was born but...").
As to the history of the word there must be a good one somewhere.
The piece Dan posted is very good too although I wonder why
a "musicologist" would bother to write about Dolly Parton, or any
modern pop music for that matter. But then this is the way most
educated people used to think about movies way back in pre-auteurist
days.
JPC
5751
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:26am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
I don't believe that. I know you can lead Tag to booze but you
can't make him drink. JP
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> I have been led to confusion and made to drink. And now you drop
out...
>
> jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > I keep insisting
> > that any discussion of Camp can only lead to confusion unless we
> > agree on a distinction between the OBJECT -- be it a movie, a
> > painting, a lamp, a dress or whatever -- and the ATTITUDE of the
> > person in her relationship to the object.
> > And that said, I probably should drop out and go back to
writing
> > my memoirs instead.
> >
> >
5752
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:36am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
I'll drink any decent wine you or anyone else leads me to.
(You've never offered.)
jpcoursodon wrote:
> I don't believe that. I know you can lead Tag to booze but you
> can't make him drink. JP
>
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> > I have been led to confusion and made to drink. And now you drop
> out...
> >
5753
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:52am
Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--bogart feature words from the world of movies
Since we are dealing with the word CAMP, it seemed timely to forward
this mailing (a word a day) on BOGART and feature words from the world
of movies
You can sign up for the mailing on your own, there will be a few more
'movie' words this week. Anybody have any guesses what might be other
words from the movies? I never heard of the BOGART and don't find it
in M-W.
> bogart (BO-gart) verb tr.
>
> 1. To hog or to take more than the fair share of something.
>
> 2. To bully, act tough or to be belligerent.
>
> [After actor Humphrey Bogart (1900-1957) who played tough-guy movie
> roles.]
>
> "You watch (Marcus) White play in games. He doesn't want one
> rebound. He
> wants all the rebounds. ... 'He bogarts a rebound,' Calhoun said."
> Jeff Jacobs; Clock Ticking For Huskies; The Hartford Courant; Dec
> 6, 2003.
>
> "Bill Adler Jr. had the same sort of trouble -- with a squirrel that
> kept weaseling onto his window-ledge bird feeder and bogarting all
> the
> seeds."
> David Brooks; Bookshorts: Rodent War, Economic Peace of Mind;
> Wall Street Journal (New York); Jan 26, 1989.
>
> There's no business like show-business, they say, and there is some
> truth in
> it. Every day, movies lure countless numbers from their homes to
> theaters.
> And beyond.
>
> Growing up in India, I knew a distant cousin, a teenager, who ran away
> from
> home to Bombay (now Mumbai) hoping to become a hero, as movie actors
> there
> are called. Sadly, he soon ran out of money, washed dirty plates in
> restaurants for a while, and duly returned home to his parents. Even
> movies
> can't beat home-cooked meals and rent-free accommodation.
>
> While he was ridiculed after his return, I understand his ambition to
> become
> an actor, if not the approach he took. After all, some do go on to
> become
> heroes on the big screen. And on the bigger screen -- the real life.
> Some
> people do become actors and astronauts and firefighters and presidents.
> How would we know what our calling is unless we try? May you find
> rewards in
> doing what you love in the coming year.
>
> Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. This week we feature
> words
> from the world of movies.
>
> -Anu
> anu@w...
5754
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:08am
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
I hope I don't sound homophobic when i say that I suffered through
quite a few such a screening in the past
Not at all JPC, my sexual orientation is in the "other" category, but
I do not believe that questioning or criticizing what Rosenbaum
referred to as "tribe mentality" means that you are discriminating.
(I find Spike Lee's statements like "If you don't like my films,
you're a racist" infuriating- it halts all discourse.) When I went
to see Terence Davies' "The Neon Bible" at the Castro, I had to walk
out a third way through when the so called sophisticated audience
threw a fit because Davies wasn't spoon feeding them a horizontal
narrative with sweet Southern charm. I had to wait 3 years to see it
again, on DVD, so I could sit in a quiet atmosphere and absorb
Davies' masterpiece.
I got sick a long time ago of the critics here in SF who applaud any
film that is flag waving gay. I've seen films that are incompetent
get praised while films of true form and style get panned. I
remember one local film critic; I'll leave him unnamed, say that
Sayles stature as a filmmaker was advancing while Bertolucci's was
declining based on their abilities to make socially relevant films.
This was after a screening of Bertolucci's "Besieged" and the critic
in question was comparing it to the Salyle's film at that
time, "Limbo". In terms of style and form, I do not think there is
any comparison.
Good politics do not always make good art and vice versa. If
the "good" cinema is widescreen PBS then give me the "bad" every time.
5755
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:53am
Subject: Re: Ministry of Fear
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I just saw The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse; thanks for pointing out the
> MINISTRY OF FEAR. I'll look for it.
>
Elizabeth, Ministry of Fear is on TCM this Saturday, 8am, E.S.T.
5756
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:10am
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
Ugh, the laughter -- I recently attended a screening of 'Eyes Without a Face' at Film Forum, on Halloween afternoon no less, and three NYU scamps (undoubtedly Tisch'ies, so like ostensibly what the fuck; realistically: it figures), just LAUGHED and LAUGHED and LAUGHED all throughout -- not natural laughs, of course, but forced guffaws to announce that they were "in on it," as though on some level the rest of the audience would feel envious of their camp-perception-abilities, -- or on another level, their laughs would act as the necessary incantation to imbue the film with camp sensibility and redeem what was for them a too-unusual viewing experience: a sort of 45-min. easing of their own anxieties following that first face-to-scalpel scene, through which all three were quiet as mice.
craig.
5757
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:10am
Subject: Re: A word a day
The common expression in the 60s (when it became a song title)
was "Don't bogart that joint, my friend." I never heard it used any
other way.
5758
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:22am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jaketwilson" wrote:
> The definition Andrew Ross quotes in his book NO RESPECT: "To be
camp
> is to present oneself as committed to the marginal with a
commitment
> greater than the marginal merits." That's probably too neat, but
> quite interesting to think about.
>
I think this definition does apply in a general way to camp, but it
could equally apply to people who are devoted to the glory of a sport
few ever think about except during the Olympics, say, speed skating.
Which isn't camp, while the much more widely-embraced figure skating
is.
5759
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:23am
Subject: Re: trains
>That's exactly what happens in the first 3/4s of my
favorite film of all-time, "Those Who Love Me Can Take
the Train" particularly at the pivotal moment when
everyone looks out the window to see the car carrying
the coffin with the deceased in it rushes by on the
road alongside the tracks as Jeff Buckley singing "The
>Last Goodbye" plays on the soundtrack full blast.
Is this a forerunner/prequel to 'The Man on the Train,' or are they just thematically linked? Or maybe not -- I'm asking because I haven't seen either.
>And what's most interesting there is that during the
train journey Bonnaire decides to take revenge against
those who killed her father. This isn't explained to
us in dialogue we SEE her change as we take the ride
>with her.
I was thinking/writing more from the perspective that she's made up her mind before she gets on the train -- almost in fact at the instant she storms out of the hospital room after discovering her brother (and the girlfriend) has(/have) plans to murder Radziwilowicz with the pistol. She seems to process this immediately as: "This act is going to be performed, and there is probably no stopping him; with that being the case, it's better that I be the performer, to spare him the consequences of committing murder." The preparation for that first train ride and then the ride itself seems to ground the reality, both for her and for the viewer, of what such an act means -- and like you point out, we see and sense, quite viscerally, this sinking in.
More trains: Hou's 'Goodbye South, Goodbye' -- I started rewatching last night but there wasn't enough quiet in the house, so I put on 'The Great Gabbo' instead. I'll have more to say on this in the upcoming week when I can rewatch in proper, but the long shots of the receding rails through dusty ramschackle trainyard infrastructure, and through the forest, with their crossing tracks describing lemniscates (it's so infrequently this concept gets to be applied outside of 'Pale Fire,' -- huzzah) is really mesmerizing, especially with the music. (Hou has a superb ear.)
craig.
5760
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:24am
Subject: Melodrama
I love melodrama. The last film I saw before leaving LA was a
Germaine Dulac rarity at UCLA (the title, of course, escapes me) -
essentially a melodrama about a woman who makes a pact with an old
lover, now married, that they will pretend publicly to be lovers,
leading to many complications. The print was chopped up, and the
style was a bit dry for my taste, but I suddenly realized that I love
the genre because it is so intelligent, so revelatory. The unfolding
of intertwined destinies is particularly interesting and even
surprising to follow, and as Daney said, the webwork of melodrama is
the Symbolic, in Lacan's sense. So melodrama was a perfect medium for
Bunuel, with his analyst's nose for what's going on in relationships
and other social situations, when he was working in Mexico, and it
was a magnificent opportunity for the people we've been discussing -
Sirk, Minnelli, Ray, or for that matter Todd Haynes today - for the
same reasons. It's weird that this genre, of all genres, should be
perceived as stupid and laughable. Maybe the half-developed-X-Ray
quality of even minor melodrama makes people who are not in touch
with their unconscious vaguely uncomfortable.
Setting all that to the side, there is absolutely nothing funny about
Eyes Without a Face!
5761
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:30am
Subject: Re: Chinatown
>Films divided in two by a symbolic castration include Tristana, A
Clockwork Orange and Vertigo, which is the major influence on
Chinatown. This seems to be a structure that arose intuitively in the
70s work of three great directors, all of whom had drunk deep at the
well of Hitchcock. Fellini also uses it in Fellini Satyricon, but
>doesn't seem to owe it to Hitchcock.
In terms of Kubrick, the pre- and post-castration structure also functions in 'Full Metal Jacket' and 'Eyes Wide Shut' -- although I suppose that in 'Full Metal Jacket,' what results after Gomer Pyle's toilet-suicide and the shift to Vietnam is something more of an outfit in total libido shell-shock.
craig.
5762
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:36am
Subject: Re: I'll camp in the closet!
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I knew someone would respond; but hey, I'm ok with that...I'll camp
in the
> closet!
>
> Still, for me, 'self-consciousness' is a high point of camp. You
can keep or
> reject all the other definitions.
>
>
But self-consciousness on whose part? As has been noted, there are
two separate strands of camp: highly aware, ironic works (such as
John Waters's films, the Batman TV series) and those of which it can
be said, they are fun in a campy sort of way because they are
unknowingly ludicrous (such as Valley of the Dolls, The Bad Sees and
almost any non-Ken Russell film about a classical composer). In the
former, camp depends on the filmmaker(s), in the latter it's up to
the viewer, but, as in the example of audiences laughing at The Bad
and The Beautiful, believing something is camp doesn't make it so.
ess on the issue.
5763
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:47am
Subject: Re: trains
> More trains: Hou's 'Goodbye South, Goodbye' --
And don't forget the opening shots of DUST IN THE WIND (the precursor
to GOODBYE SOUTH, GOODBYE, IMO).
Of course my favorite "train" movie (aside from maybe memories of
seeing THE LADY VANISHES and SHANGHAI EXPRESS in my early days as a
cinephile) is Billy Bitzer's INTERIOR NEW YORK SUBWAY, one of the most
astonishing films from any period in cinema, so simple, yet cinema
didn't really need to go any further (if Hou Hsiao-hsien is any symbol
of this)...
Gabe
5764
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:54pm
Subject: Re: trains
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> Is this a forerunner/prequel to 'The Man on the
> Train,' or are they just thematically linked? Or
> maybe not -- I'm asking because I haven't seen
> either.
>
Nope.
> I was thinking/writing more from the perspective
> that she's made up her mind before she gets on the
> train -- almost in fact at the instant she storms
> out of the hospital room after discovering her
> brother (and the girlfriend) has(/have) plans to
> murder Radziwilowicz with the pistol. She seems to
> process this immediately as: "This act is going to
> be performed, and there is probably no stopping him;
> with that being the case, it's better that I be the
> performer, to spare him the consequences of
> committing murder." The preparation for that first
> train ride and then the ride itself seems to ground
> the reality, both for her and for the viewer, of
> what such an act means -- and like you point out, we
> see and sense, quite viscerally, this sinking in.
>
That's what makes it so remarkable. The key moment is
when the VIEWER becomes aware of the fact that Rivette
isn't going to hand us an "explanation" on a silver
(dialogue) platter.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
5765
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:56pm
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
Such philistine vulgarity should NEVER be mistaken for
camp.
Camp-consciuous audiences don't "bust a gut" while
enjoying "Cobra Woman" or"Valley of the Dolls."
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Ugh, the laughter -- I recently attended a screening
> of 'Eyes Without a Face' at Film Forum, on Halloween
> afternoon no less, and three NYU scamps (undoubtedly
> Tisch'ies, so like ostensibly what the fuck;
> realistically: it figures), just LAUGHED and LAUGHED
> and LAUGHED all throughout -- not natural laughs, of
> course, but forced guffaws to announce that they
> were "in on it," as though on some level the rest of
> the audience would feel envious of their
> camp-perception-abilities, -- or on another level,
> their laughs would act as the necessary incantation
> to imbue the film with camp sensibility and redeem
> what was for them a too-unusual viewing experience:
> a sort of 45-min. easing of their own anxieties
> following that first face-to-scalpel scene, through
> which all three were quiet as mice.
>
> craig.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
5766
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Hou's trains
I've been able thrice to teach lessons on Hou Hsiao Hsien's films and I
always show the train parts on DUST IN THE WIND and in GOODBYE SOUTH GOODBYE
(actually, I show almost GSG in its entirety since it's one of the best
fucking films ever) to make them understand a certain shift or, say, a
difference in composing and "trusting" reality from mid 80's to the 90's Hou
production. In DitW, beauty appears from the poetry of the camera filming
nature. In GSG, it's a more complex thing, with soundtrack and use of
naturalistic sound handled in such a way it creates a kind of poetry of the
mental amalgam, composing "with" nature but not anymore trusting or
depending on it.
And yesm the beginning of GSG is definitely a quote and re-writing of DitW,
if not for anything else, only to show how fragmented and gadget-fond is the
youth of today: in DitW the train scenes display to friends talking; in GSG
there's talk, but to a cell phone that never works; there are also two other
kids in the wagon, but they don't seem to talk to one another. By the way,
was GSG the first feature ever in which cell phones play an important
dramatic role? Can anyone think of an earlier one?
ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe Klinger"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] trains
> > More trains: Hou's 'Goodbye South, Goodbye' --
>
> And don't forget the opening shots of DUST IN THE WIND (the precursor
> to GOODBYE SOUTH, GOODBYE, IMO).
>
> Of course my favorite "train" movie (aside from maybe memories of
> seeing THE LADY VANISHES and SHANGHAI EXPRESS in my early days as a
> cinephile) is Billy Bitzer's INTERIOR NEW YORK SUBWAY, one of the most
> astonishing films from any period in cinema, so simple, yet cinema
> didn't really need to go any further (if Hou Hsiao-hsien is any symbol
> of this)...
>
> Gabe
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
5767
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:10pm
Subject: Re: Camp
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
It may be, as Eve Sedgewick says, that
> “The typifying gesture
> of camp is really something amazingly simple: the
> moment at which a
> consumer of culture makes the wild surmise, ‘What if
> whoever made this
> was gay too?’” An important part of camp reading
> is located in the
> interpreter’s attempts to show how an underlying
> gayness is to be
> revealed in the camp performance or object.
Further proof of how clueless Eve Sedgewick is.
Camp is not a litmous test for Gay.
The
> best camp is nearly
> always about mistakes or imperfections, about the
> incongruity between
> accident and essence, or what is projected and what
> underlies it. These
> flaws need not be about ugliness, because the
> failures of taste and
> demeanor that constitute social errors are just as
> effective. The
> campiest drag is that which treads the fine line
> between perfect mimcry
> and giving itself away. If that drag bases itself on
> the already
> stylized image of a great movie icon or chanteuse,
> it may give itself
> away more extravagantly. This is principal underlies
> the humor in such
> rarefied spectacles as the Ballet de Trocadero de
> Monte Carlo, or the
> drag opera troupe La gran scena; and the camp is all
> the more effective
> in these cases because the exagerrated drag is
> coupled with an
> astonishingly high degree of technical skill (in
> dancing en pointe and
> in genuine diva-singing, respectively).
> Third, it follows that aesthetic failures must make
> the best camp.
Not at all. Dietrich and Garbo are all about aesthetic
success. Camping and Camp must be distinguished from
one another.
> Although camp is often said to have something to do
> with the triumph of
> style over substance, the aesthetic of failure
> suggests the
> opposite—that substance, when it breaks the style,
> is what matters most.
> Related to this is the attraction of camp aesthetics
> to seemingly
> outworn aesthetic objects. Andrew Ross has written
> that
> The camp effect...is created not simply by a change
> in the mode of
> cultural production (and the contradictions
> attendant on such a change),
> but rather when the products of a much earlier mode
> of production. .
> .which has lost its power to produce and dominate
> cultural meanings,
> become available, in the present, for redefinition
> according to
> contemporary codes of taste.
> If something is aesthetically outmoded, its
> conventions are all the more
> visible, and if they are just passé enough to seem
> somewhat embarassing,
> the failure they represent can be reinterpreted as
> the triumph of the
> essence, of the personality.
Sometimes. Not always. Charlotte Von Malsdorff
collected artifacts from the past that weren't camp at
all.
At the same time, the
> obviousness of the
> conventions employed can efficiently hint at the gay
> subtexts so easily
> found in the camp work’s latent content. Camp claps
> its hand loudly to
> show that it believes in essences. This is one way
> of understanding the
> horrific charm of the later Judy Garland.
There's nothing "horrific" about Judy Garland -- save
for those recordings of her when she was drunk and
trying to write her memoirs.
It is also
> a strong current in
> Dolly Parton’s comedic portrayal of the triumph of
> trashiness.
>
Dolly is not Divine.
Ever.
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5768
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> Is camp accessable at all? How does one get "in on
> the joke"?
>
Simple. One refuses to accept the tenets of realism.
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5769
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
Seems to me your views on camp are based on your tenets of realism.
The problem some of encounter with your difficult-to-grasp concepts of
camp perhaps is due to our tenets of realism being radically different.
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> --- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> > Is camp accessable at all? How does one get "in on
> > the joke"?
> >
>
> Simple. One refuses to accept the tenets of realism.
>
>
> * oo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5770
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:33pm
Subject: EYES without a FACE
I had a better experience in our local KEN theater (vintage 1950 with nary a
repair since though the screen is decent, seat selection depends on spring
tolerance) on Christmas day with about 50 in attendance. Some people,
males and females alike, were covering their faces with scarfs and coats
during the facial operations scenes.
EYES without a FACE was interesting to me as a physician / surgeon. All
those slasher films (and I understand they have a different agenda) miss an
important point: death itself is permanent, it is over and done, and seldom
mourned; in slasher films, the bodies just pile up. Something more frightening
is permanent deficit, ala, loosing your limb, eye, hearing, face. The EWAF
scenes were pretty realistic though not real in that the face could not simply
be lifted (as the surgeon apparently does and fails all the time) as there are all
the nervous and vascular connections to deal with; but it is true, much of the
skin can be lifted off in trauma (called de-gloving {most common injury is to
the hand}, de-masking in the face?). The facial changes in the still photo
were quite good, and again, emphasize the gradual deficit, more frightening
than death itself.
I thought the daughter's dress and walk were just perfect, itself adding to the
whole errie air.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Ugh, the laughter -- I recently attended a screening of 'Eyes Without a Face'
at Film Forum, on Halloween afternoon no less, and three NYU scamps
(undoubtedly Tisch'ies, so like ostensibly what the fuck; realistically: it figures),
just LAUGHED and LAUGHED and LAUGHED all throughout -- not natural
laughs, of course, but forced guffaws to announce that they were "in on it," as
though on some level the rest of the audience would feel envious of their
camp-perception-abilities, -- or on another level, their laughs would act as the
necessary incantation to imbue the film with camp sensibility and redeem
what was for them a too-unusual viewing experience: a sort of 45-min. easing
of their own anxieties following that first face-to-scalpel scene, through which
all three were quiet as mice.
>
> craig.
5771
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:43pm
Subject: Don't bogart that joint, my friend.
Interesting, bogart could have had two meaning in that sentence.
The first bogart meaning "taking more than your share" or a more apparent
Bogart trademark of a cigerette held on the lips / in the mouth over an
extended period of time while talking, etc; sort of just hanging out there.
No one holds onto a joint in that way, it's always sucked up and passed on....
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> The common expression in the 60s (when it became a song title)
> was "Don't bogart that joint, my friend." I never heard it used any
> other way.
5772
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:44pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> > Is camp accessable at all? How does one get "in on
> > the joke"?
> >
>
> Simple. One refuses to accept the tenets of realism.
>
> Not enough. Henrik asked "How does one get 'in on the joke'"?
You don't "get in on the joke", you get the joke, or you don't. For
some people "camp" is a completely meaningless or incomprehensible
concept. Again, camp is a matter of sensibility (Sontag describes it
as "a private code"; but it's not a code you can "learn" if it's not
in your genes so to speak).
I don't think camp rejects the "tenets of realism" whatever
they are. Or rejects 'reality". A drag queen is as "real" as you and
I (I'm assuming you and I are not drag queens). Rather, camp enhances
reality to the point of extreme artifice. But the artifice is a
comment on reality rather than a rejection of it.
JPC
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
5773
From: Tosh
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:05pm
Subject: Re: EYES without a FACE
Franju rules! I am hoping that the re-release of Eyes Without a Face
will lead to a proper DVD release. As well as 'Judex,' etc.
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
5774
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:11pm
Subject: Goodbye South, Goodbye / PEPPERMINT CANDY
I was really disappointed to miss Goodbye South, Goodbye at the
LaJollaMCA 19DEC with discussion by Manny Farber and Gorin (teaches at
UCSD, worked with Godard in the seventies). It was the fourth film in a series
selected by Farber whose art work is on exhibit at the museum. (My sister
had a medical emergency in Richmond, VA and I was gone for the week
before Christmas, but I did get to see family and snow in PA)
I had even watched GS,G in preparation for getting more out the Farber/
Goren discussion; and the receding rails scenes got my attention. I was
wondering if the scenes were shot with the train running in reverse but
decided not as there are too many passers-by who would be moving out of
the way much more rapidly if a train were approaching...thought it might be
interesting to do something with that idea.
I'm sure my question of 'shot in reverse' comes from viewing a South Korean
movie, LEE CHANG DONG's PEPPERMINT CANDY. Much of the film has a
train going backwards. LEE CHANG DONG also directed OASIS.
Following comments are from STRICTLY FILM SCHOOL
Bakha satang, 2000
[Peppermint Candy]
In the spring of 1999, a distraught and incoherent middle-aged man, Kim
Yong-ho (Sol Kyung-gu), dressed in a tailored business suit, lies along the
side of a railroad bridge that overlooks an open field by a lake. Nearby, a
loose knit group of friends called the Bong-woo Club, formed 20 years earlier
at the same site during a social gathering of factory employees, are holding
their reunion. Yong-ho stumbles into the picnic, seemingly by accident, and is
immediately recognized by members of the group as a fellow factory worker
and aspiring photographer who had joined them at the original outdoor event
in 1979. Unable to disconnect himself from his desperate, unarticulated
anguish and join in the amusement of his former colleagues, the inconsolable
Yong-ho climbs to the railroad tracks and throws himself in front of a passing
train, shouting "I am going back." The film then proceeds in reverse
chronology through the past 20 years to mundane, but emotionally revelatory
episodes in Yong-ho's life, from his family's estrangement, financial
bankruptcy, traumatic law enforcement career during the 1987 student
demonstrations for democratic reform of the Constitution, military service
during the crackdown of martial law protestors that led to the tragedy of the
1980 Kwangju massacre, and the loss of his first (and true) love, Sun-Nim
(Moon So-ri).
Coincidentally released in the same year as Christopher Nolan's similarly
structured film, Memento (which, in turn, recalls the reverse sequence
narrative of the dissolution of a marriage in David Hugh Jones' elegant
screen adaptation of Harold Pinter's Betrayal), Peppermint Candy is an
intimate and compelling account of the contemporary history of South Korea
as the nation moved towards democratization. From the opening image of a
train immutably traversing a long, dark tunnel (in an opening sequence
reminiscent of Hou Hsiao-Hsien's Dust in the Wind), Lee Chang-dong
establishes a parallel between the motion of trains and the progression of
time as signifiers of human (and national) transition: the interstitial shots from
a train traveling backwards that episodically connect the stages in Yong-ho's
life; Sun-Nim's bittersweet departure after visiting an emotionally callous
Yong-ho, who had recently become a police officer (and abandoned his
earlier ambition of becoming a photographer) at a time when brutality and
torture of prisoners were tolerated as a means of gaining information and
rooting out opposition to the military coup government of General Chun Du-
Wan; the unforeseen consequences of the Kwangju military suppression as a
frightened, wounded Yong-ho awaits medical assistance in a train yard. By
creating a regressive chronicle of Yong-ho's ultimately tragic life through
seminal events in late 20th century South Korean history, the film serves as
an incisive and affecting portrait of the uncalculated human toll of the painful,
and often traumatic reconstruction of a war torn nation.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> More trains: Hou's 'Goodbye South, Goodbye' -- I started rewatching last
night but there wasn't enough quiet in the house, so I put on 'The Great
Gabbo' instead. I'll have more to say on this in the upcoming week when I
can rewatch in proper, but the long shots of the receding rails through dusty
ramschackle trainyard infrastructure, and through the forest, with their
crossing tracks describing lemniscates (it's so infrequently this concept gets
to be applied outside of 'Pale Fire,' -- huzzah) is really mesmerizing,
especially with the music. (Hou has a superb ear.)
>
> craig.
5775
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > Not enough. Henrik asked "How does one get 'in
> on the joke'"?
> You don't "get in on the joke", you get the joke, or
> you don't. For
> some people "camp" is a completely meaningless or
> incomprehensible
> concept.
Tough darts!
Again, camp is a matter of sensibility
> (Sontag describes it
> as "a private code"; but it's not a code you can
> "learn" if it's not
> in your genes so to speak).
No she's wrong. (I almost wrote "She's wrong again!")
Sontag learned about camp from Elliot Stein and Alfred
Chester.
> I don't think camp rejects the "tenets of
> realism" whatever
> they are.
The belief that what one sees on the screen has an
objective correlative to actual life at some level.
I'm sure you've come across the complaint "I just
didn't BELIVE a person would behave that way in real
life."
The camp response tosaid complaint is "So what?"
Or rejects 'reality". A drag queen is as
> "real" as you and
> I (I'm assuming you and I are not drag queens).
> Rather, camp enhances
> reality to the point of extreme artifice. But the
> artifice is a
> comment on reality rather than a rejection of it.
Dietrich, Garbo and Cherkassov in "Ivan the Terrible"
aren't drag queens either.
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5776
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:20pm
Subject: Re: Melodrama (and other genres)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I love melodrama. The last film I saw before leaving LA was a
> Germaine Dulac rarity at UCLA (the title, of course, escapes me) -
Could it be "La Souriante Madame Beudet"? Dulac's silent
features are very rare...
It's weird that this genre, of all genres, should be
> perceived as stupid and laughable. Maybe the half-developed-X-Ray
> quality of even minor melodrama makes people who are not in touch
> with their unconscious vaguely uncomfortable.
>
The genre WAS perceived as stupid and laughable forty years ago
maybe. Is it still so after decades of cultist praise of Sirk's or
Minnelli's melodramas (to cite only two)? And after present day films
like Far from Paradise (which was amazingly well received by critics,
and commercially successful)? Seems to me the genre has been
thoroughly rehabilitated (and not, or not only, as Camp!!)
More generally, practically ALL genres (the western, the
musical, the thriller etc...) were once treated at best
condescendingly, as somehow "inferior" (to what?) I remember how
shocked and incredulous the "serious" cinema lovers in France were
back in the fifties when some young cinephiles tried to have a movie
like "Singin' in the rain" added to Cine Club fare. A Hollywood
musical?! You must be kidding... Finally in 1960 I wrote an article
on the Hollywood musical 9actually on Donen films) stating that
saying "Singin'" was the best film ever made was no more absurb than
saying "Battle ship Potemkin" or "Bicycle Thief" was. Not too long
after the Pagode reissued Singin'and blew up my "revolutionary"
statement and stuck it in the lobby. How things change...
JPC
> Setting all that to the side, there is absolutely nothing funny
about
> Eyes Without a Face!
5777
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
But your analyses of scenes you consider "camp" always relate them
actual life at some level. Is there anything that cannot be related to
actual life at SOME level?
And you defend a camp piece like Far from Heaven, a film which implies
that what it is depicting relates in some valid way to actual attitudes
on the 1950s. (To me this is a problem with that film. In the 50s,
people knew what was expressive satire in "the Peyton Place genre" and
what was reality. Today people can't tell the difference.)
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
>
> The belief that what one sees on the screen has an
> objective correlative to actual life at some level.
> I'm sure you've come across the complaint "I just
> didn't BELIVE a person would behave that way in real
> life."
>
> The camp response tosaid complaint is "So what?"
>
>
5778
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:36pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
>
> Again, camp is a matter of sensibility
> > (Sontag describes it
> > as "a private code"; but it's not a code you can
> > "learn" if it's not
> > in your genes so to speak).
>
> No she's wrong. (I almost wrote "She's wrong again!")
> Sontag learned about camp from Elliot Stein and Alfred
> Chester.
>
She didn't write that it's a code you can't learn. "Can't
learn" is my remark.
>
> I don't think she "learned", rather, maybe, she was 'exposed"
to it with their help. Remember she wrote the piece almost 40 forty
years ago and "Camp" was quite underground then.
Perhaps you should write a piece debunking Sontag on Camp.
Take her 58 "points" one by one and destroy them.
By the way, is Elliott still around? He's the person who told
me Eustache had killed himself. Never forgot that moment...
JPC
5779
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > I don't think she "learned", rather, maybe,
> she was 'exposed"
> to it with their help. Remember she wrote the piece
> almost 40 forty
> years ago and "Camp" was quite underground then.
Not at all. I first became aware of it in High School
(Music & Art calss of '64)
>
> Perhaps you should write a piece debunking
> Sontag on Camp.
> Take her 58 "points" one by one and destroy them.
I'd rather destroy her for other reasons.
>
> By the way, is Elliott still around?
Yes.He still occasionally contributes to the Village
Voice.
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5780
From:
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:46pm
Subject: Cell Phone
Ruy writes:
was "Goodbye South, Goodbye" (1996) the first feature ever in which cell phones play an important dramatic role? Can anyone think of an earlier one?
In the short lived American TV series "Middle Ages" (1992), one of the characters was a high-powered political consultant (Michael O'Keefe). He was always talking rapid-fire into his cell phone, which he would then fold up and put away in his suit. He was a yuppie with important business.
This must have been my first contact with cinematic characters with cell phones. Whenever I see one in a movie, it immediately brings to mind this guy.
In "Twelve Crowded Hours" (Lew Landers, 1939) the thriller plot exploits the properties of phones that can be plugged into various tables in restaurants. The pulp mystery author / screenwriter Paul Cain /Peter Ruric worked on the script of this.
What Fritz Lang could have done with cell phones!
Mike Grost
PS Jerry Siegel (who also created Superman) created the supernatural comic book detective, the Spectre in the early 1940's. The Spectre liked to shrink himself down to the size of an electron, then travel through telephone wires cross country at the speed of electricity. He'd jump in a phone in New York, then emerge a few seconds later in California or Chicago. The same "telephone trick" was later regularly used by the comic book super-hero "The Atom" in the 1960's.
5781
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Hou's trains
"Ruy Gardnier" wrote:
> (actually, I show almost GSG in its entirety since it's one of the best
> fucking films ever)
Hi Ruy, no disageement from me !
Do you have articles in English anywhere ? I read your writing on GS,G just now @
www.contracampo.he.com.br/30/artigos.htm
but in Google translation, your perceptions and insights are amazing but Google
translation's a little tricky.
Thanks !
-Sam
5782
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> But your analyses of scenes you consider "camp"
> always relate them
> actual life at some level. Is there anything that
> cannot be related to
> actual life at SOME level?
Look at it this way, Tag. You love John Ford. The
notion that someone wouldn't take John Wayne or Ward
Bond seriously is anathema to you. Not that there's
anything particularly camp about them (though Richard
Dyer considers John Wayne camp) but they're meant to
be taken seriously -- not ironically.
> And you defend a camp piece like Far from Heaven, a
> film which implies
> that what it is depicting relates in some valid way
> to actual attitudes
> on the 1950s. (To me this is a problem with that
> film. In the 50s,
> people knew what was expressive satire in "the
> Peyton Place genre" and
> what was reality. Today people can't tell the
> difference.)
"Far From Heaven" is NOT CAMP. Just because it was
written and directed by gay man -- and inckudes
specifically gay material -- doesn't make it camp.
It has a sense of ironic distance from its characters
and situations that's RELATED to camp, but then so
does Sirk.
To make things even more complicated let me put it to
you this way: Lana Turner in "Imitation of Life" is
camp. Susan Kohner isn't.
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5783
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:24pm
Subject: Re: I'll camp in the closet!
> But self-consciousness on whose part? As has been noted, there are
> two separate strands of camp: highly aware, ironic works (such as
> John Waters's films, the Batman TV series)
this is it for me; I want the camp to be intentional on the part of the director.
> those of which be said, they are fun in a campy sort of way because they
> are unknowingly ludicrous (such as Valley of the Dolls, The Bad Sees and
> almost any non-Ken Russell film about a classical composer). In the
> former, camp depends on the filmmaker(s), in the latter it's up to
> the viewer, but, as in the example of audiences laughing at The Bad
> and The Beautiful, believing something is camp doesn't make it so.
agree. I like the director to have control, not the audience. The Cohen movie
THE MAN WHO WASN'T THERE is a special case, perhaps similar to some
of the 'homosexual camp' because the Cohens have their own fan club.
TMWWT could have been taken two ways, one for a regular audience and
another for the Cohen fan club. I saw it with the latter, and they made it a
camp experience, laughing at what would have be inappropriate for others in
the audience. Afterwards, several movie goers commented they would have
to see it again without the audience
in another view:
One wonders if films that get 'dated,' are automatic candidates for camp
reception by some audiences. Not for me. I like to take a movie for its worth
in its own time period of production.
and another view:
Sometimes I wonder if movies produced in the thirties and forties as
contemporary portrayals of their times will someday be called PERIOD
pieces.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
> wrote:
> > I knew someone would respond; but hey, I'm ok with that...I'll camp
> in the
> > closet!
> >
> > Still, for me, 'self-consciousness' is a high point of camp. You
> can keep or
> > reject all the other definitions.
> >
> >
>
> But self-consciousness on whose part? As has been noted, there are
> two separate strands of camp: highly aware, ironic works (such as
> John Waters's films, the Batman TV series) and those of which it can
> be said, they are fun in a campy sort of way because they are
> unknowingly ludicrous (such as Valley of the Dolls, The Bad Sees and
> almost any non-Ken Russell film about a classical composer). In the
> former, camp depends on the filmmaker(s), in the latter it's up to
> the viewer, but, as in the example of audiences laughing at The Bad
> and The Beautiful, believing something is camp doesn't make it so.
> ess on the issue.
5784
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
David:
I had no idea that FAR FROM HEAVEN was written and directed by a gay man
until you told me. (I tend to spend three months at a time watching
nothing but the films of the director I'm working on. So I am oblivious
to new films until they come my way.)
Also, I never suspected there was any connection between "camp" and gay.
(I still don't see why there is or should be any connection.)
Also, I have no idea what your point about Ford and Wayne and Bond is.
Usually their characters have some irony, and even the actors
themselves. If Dietrich can be camp with her veil in Scarlet Empress
then I don't see why Ford characters can't be as well. Wouldn't you say
Ford treats repressed homosexuality in ways that have a touch of camp?
My point was that YOU always cite a relationship between your camp
scenes and real life. Then you say the camp has NO relation to real life.
Also, I have no idea why you say Lana is camp and Susan not. To me they
are both imitations of life, both ironic, both ridiculous, both related
to actual life, both impossible existences except in a movie, both tragic.
Tag
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> --- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> > But your analyses of scenes you consider "camp"
> > always relate them
> > actual life at some level. Is there anything that
> > cannot be related to
> > actual life at SOME level?
>
> Look at it this way, Tag. You love John Ford. The
> notion that someone wouldn't take John Wayne or Ward
> Bond seriously is anathema to you. Not that there's
> anything particularly camp about them (though Richard
> Dyer considers John Wayne camp) but they're meant to
> be taken seriously -- not ironically.
>
> > And you defend a camp piece like Far from Heaven, a
> > film which implies
> > that what it is depicting relates in some valid way
> > to actual attitudes
> > on the 1950s. (To me this is a problem with that
> > film. In the 50s,
> > people knew what was expressive satire in "the
> > Peyton Place genre" and
> > what was reality. Today people can't tell the
> > difference.)
>
> "Far From Heaven" is NOT CAMP. Just because it was
> written and directed by gay man -- and inckudes
> specifically gay material -- doesn't make it camp.
> It has a sense of ironic distance from its characters
> and situations that's RELATED to camp, but then so
> does Sirk.
>
> To make things even more complicated let me put it to
> you this way: Lana Turner in "Imitation of Life" is
> camp. Susan Kohner isn't.
>
>
> __________
5785
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:44pm
Subject: Re: Cell Phone
I watched DePalma's SCARFACE the other day and similarly wondered what
it would have looked like if cell phones were incorporated into the story, ie,
move it forward about a decade or so. Separate from all other comments
about the SCARFACE remake, then and subsequent, looking at it today with
the ubiquitous cell phone and computer experiences of our times, shows how
it unknowingly captured (even at the extreme) a very particular time we are
not likely to return to.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Ruy writes:
> was "Goodbye South, Goodbye" (1996) the first feature ever in which cell
phones play an important dramatic role? Can anyone think of an earlier one?
>
> In the short lived American TV series "Middle Ages" (1992), one of the
characters was a high-powered political consultant (Michael O'Keefe). He
was always talking rapid-fire into his cell phone, which he would then fold up
and put away in his suit. He was a yuppie with important business.
> This must have been my first contact with cinematic characters with cell
phones. Whenever I see one in a movie, it immediately brings to mind this
guy.
> In "Twelve Crowded Hours" (Lew Landers, 1939) the thriller plot exploits
the properties of phones that can be plugged into various tables in
restaurants. The pulp mystery author / screenwriter Paul Cain /Peter Ruric
worked on the script of this.
> What Fritz Lang could have done with cell phones!
>
> Mike Grost
> PS Jerry Siegel (who also created Superman) created the supernatural
comic book detective, the Spectre in the early 1940's. The Spectre liked to
shrink himself down to the size of an electron, then travel through telephone
wires cross country at the speed of electricity. He'd jump in a phone in New
York, then emerge a few seconds later in California or Chicago. The same
"telephone trick" was later regularly used by the comic book super-hero "The
Atom" in the 1960's.
5786
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Cell Phone DENISE CALLS UP
from ROTTEN TOMATOES synopsis DENISE CALLS UP (1996)
Director/writer Hal Selwen has fashioned an ingenious film from the use of
one simple device: all the dialogue takes place on the phone. This little trick
not only forces a great deal of free-wheeling conversation and witty asides,
but it also serves as an overarching metaphor for romance in the modern age.
The film focuses on six friends who are all too busy to actually see each other;
instead, they apologize over the phone for missing this or that event. The
comic mayhem percolates as they conduct their romantic entanglements with
the help of the phone, fax, and modem.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Ruy writes:
> was "Goodbye South, Goodbye" (1996) the first feature ever in which cell
phones play an important dramatic role? Can anyone think of an earlier one?
>
> In the short lived American TV series "Middle Ages" (1992), one of the
characters was a high-powered political consultant (Michael O'Keefe). He
was always talking rapid-fire into his cell phone, which he would then fold up
and put away in his suit. He was a yuppie with important business.
> This must have been my first contact with cinematic characters with cell
phones. Whenever I see one in a movie, it immediately brings to mind this
guy.
> In "Twelve Crowded Hours" (Lew Landers, 1939) the thriller plot exploits the
properties of phones that can be plugged into various tables in restaurants.
The pulp mystery author / screenwriter Paul Cain /Peter Ruric worked on the
script of this.
> What Fritz Lang could have done with cell phones!
>
> Mike Grost
> PS Jerry Siegel (who also created Superman) created the supernatural
comic book detective, the Spectre in the early 1940's. The Spectre liked to
shrink himself down to the size of an electron, then travel through telephone
wires cross country at the speed of electricity. He'd jump in a phone in New
York, then emerge a few seconds later in California or Chicago. The same
"telephone trick" was later regularly used by the comic book super-hero "The
Atom" in the 1960's.
5787
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
I thought the OED's citations on the word "camp" in the usage under
our current discussion were interesting. I'm going to attempt to cut
and paste them below, which may or may not work. They go back to
1909, which is much longer ago than I would have suspected.
1909 WARE Passing Eng. 61/2 Camp (Street), actions and gestures of
exaggerated emphasis. Probably from the French. Used chiefly by
persons of exceptional want of character. 'How very camp he is.' 1931
New Broadway Brevities (N.Y.) II. 7/1 (heading) Drags, camps,
flaunting hip-twisters and reefer peddlers run afoul of cops on the
lam. 1933 M. LINCOLN Oh! Definitely vi. 62 Dennis, slightly more
'camp' than usual, opened the front door. 1941 S. J. BAKER Dict.
Austral. Slang 16 Camp (adj.), homosexual. 1952 A. WILSON Hemlock &
After I. v. 101 The..gossip of the golden spiv group...the 'camp' end
of the room. Ibid. II. i. 112 The incoherence of his speech,
the..absence of the customary 'camp'. Ibid. III. i. 191 Whether
Terence was really 'queer'..how much happier he was when he was not
being 'camp'. 1954 C. BEATON Glass of Fashion viii. 153Hearty naval
commanders or jolly colonels acquired the 'camp' manners of calling
everything from Joan of Arc to Merlin 'lots of fun', and the
adjective 'terrible' peppered every sentence. 1954 C. ISHERWOOD World
in Evening II. iii. 125 High Camp is the whole emotional basis of the
Ballet..and of course of Baroque art. 1956 L. MCINTOSH Oxford Folly
vii. 103 'He wasyou knowone ofthose'..'What, a pansy?' 'That's
right,' said Julian, 'he was camp.' 1959 Observer 1 Feb. 17/1 The
cute little dirty chuckle and the well-timed 'camp' gesture have made
stage and audience indistinguishable from any would-be-smart
cocktail-party. 1964 S. SONTAG in Partisan Rev. XXXI. 515 (title)
Notes on 'Camp'.
--
- Joe Kaufman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
5788
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:11pm
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
>Such philistine vulgarity should NEVER be mistaken for
camp.
Camp-consciuous audiences don't "bust a gut" while
>enjoying "Cobra Woman" or"Valley of the Dolls."
Just to clarify, I wasn't mistaking what they were doing as the actual creation of a camp atmosphere, nor mistaking the film itself for camp -- but pointing out that these delusional kids figured the film for such, and believed the rest of the audience would get "in on the act" of turning the viewing experience into a 'Mystery Science Theater 3000' travesty.
craig.
5789
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:17pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
From Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: camp
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: circa 1909
1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by
homosexuals
2 : a homosexual displaying camp
3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or
out-of-date as to be considered amusing
4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical
campy (adj)
providing sophisticated amusement by virtue of having artificially
(and vulgarly) mannered or banal or sentimental qualities
5790
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18pm
Subject: Re: EYES without a FACE
> Franju rules! I am hoping that the re-release of Eyes Without a Face
will lead to a proper DVD release. As well as 'Judex,' etc.
Not to mention a proper release for 'Blood of the Beasts'...
craig.
5791
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
So by this definition, Dietrich is gay in The Scarlet Empress?
Henrik Sylow wrote:
> >From Merriam-Webster
>
>
> 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by
> homosexuals
> 2 : a homosexual displaying camp
>
5792
From: Robert Keser
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:29pm
Subject: Re: trains
No train thread is complete without Gance's amazing
LA ROUE, with locomotive atmosphere so vivid you get
cinders in your teeth.
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Gabe Klinger wrote:
> Of course my favorite "train" movie (aside from maybe memories of
> seeing THE LADY VANISHES and SHANGHAI EXPRESS in my early days as a
> cinephile) is Billy Bitzer's INTERIOR NEW YORK SUBWAY, one of the most
> astonishing films from any period in cinema, so simple, yet cinema
> didn't really need to go any further (if Hou Hsiao-hsien is any symbol
> of this)...
>
> Gabe
5793
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:43pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Tag Gallagher wrote:
> So by this definition, Dietrich is gay in The Scarlet Empress?
>
>
> Henrik Sylow wrote:
>
> > >From Merriam-Webster
> >
> >
> > 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by
> > homosexuals
> > 2 : a homosexual displaying camp
> >
Honestly, I have no idea. For more than twenty years I have been
happily naive believing "camp" to be unintentionally funny as I only
encountered the word when reading about psychotronic cinema. To me
camp and kitsch always have been twins.
The only other description of the word was in relation to Haynes and
Waters when they talked about certain films they liked, and while it
seemed that there was a conspiracy amongst gay filmmakers to promote
bad films (for instance "Showgirls") as art, it was deflated by Waters
who said, that "one had to be in on the joke" to both understand the
campness and appriciate it.
And now given the recent discussions, I really dont know what the word
means anymore, so I looked it up, because, I believe JPC asked for the
etymology. Having done so, I am now as confused as ever.
While I agree that "camp" is a private code (at least it seems to be
so), it does raise some questions:
- is it a gay code and if so, are camp films made exclusively by gay
people?
- is gay strictly homosexual or could sensitive heterosexuals also
make camp either intentional or unintentional?
- since its not a subcode, it stands unchallenged, so when did camp
become a code (even though its private)?
Henrik
5794
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> While I agree that "camp" is a private code (at
> least it seems to be
> so), it does raise some questions:
>
> - is it a gay code and if so, are camp films made
> exclusively by gay
> people?
It's a gay code but it's not used exclusively by gay
people.
> - is gay strictly homosexual or could sensitive
> heterosexuals also
> make camp either intentional or unintentional?
Yes. Josef Von Sternberg for example.
> - since its not a subcode, it stands unchallenged,
> so when did camp
> become a code (even though its private)?
>
I would date it from Oscar Wilde.
"One would have have a heart of stone to read the
death of Little Nell without laughing," is a key camp
statement. He's making fun SERIOUSLY.
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5795
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:11pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> The only other description of the word was in relation to Haynes
and
> Waters when they talked about certain films they liked, and while
it
> seemed that there was a conspiracy amongst gay filmmakers to
promote
> bad films (for instance "Showgirls") as art,
I don't know about that, I understand Rivette really
likes "Showgirls", I always thought that the role of most mainstream
critics is to promote bad films as art. You mean to tell me their all
gay?!!
Some the posts on camp are treading into the area that I dread when
people discuss film or any other type of art: identity politics.
Just because one is gay doesn't mean that he/she has the absolute
insight to a particular theory or approach and nor is that theory
valid by default. Gays, queers, etc do not own the market on
transgressive or alternative readings. In fact, I find that some
gays think they have a specially attuned sense of critical thinking
because of their "outsider" status. I think they are mistaken: as I
wrote in my post about the screening of "Neon Bible."
Though I respect Robin Wood's work, I think he is guilty at times of
letting identity politics mar his critical thinking. His praise of
Gregg Araki is enraging to me and I have yet to see him reassess his
claims on Chronenberg with "M. Butterfly" and "Crash." Yet the gay
press has in general dismissed "M. Butterfly" and Wong Kar-
Wai's "Happy Together" because the films were not made by a gay
director so therefore these films are illegitimate. I guess we are
all supposed to stay in our own artistic ghettos.
5796
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:16pm
Subject: Re: Director books (Douglas Sirk)
Now that I've gotten over my shock at learning that Sirk's hallowed words to Halliday weren't Sirk's words, it occurs to me to point out that there is at least one place where Sirk speaks, in his own words, in English -- in the TV interview segments included on Criterion's All That Heaven Allows DVD. And they're apparently taken from a longer (BBC, was it?) interview, so it ought to be possible to track that down, perhaps even via Criterion.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> The greatest
> of all Sirk interviews is the one in Cahiers 189, the first serious
> interview he gave that I know of.
> [...] what I have always wondered is, what
> language was it originally conducted in? If that language was not
> French, can a transcript of the original be obtained? My hope, of
> course, is that it was conducted in English.
5797
From: Frederick M. Veith
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:27pm
Subject: Showgirls [was: Re: definitions of camp]
I began to draft a lengthier post yesterday specifically about audience
response, melodrama and, uh, Michael Haneke which I may yet find the time
to revise and post, but I feel *compelled* to respond at this point.
Leaving all other issues aside, I must insist with all due sincerity
(I can already picture Henrik's outrage) that far from being bad,
Showgirls is one of the great 'American' films of the 90s. But I think
Waters is just plain wrong to suggest that there's a joke to be in on.
This doesn't mean that it isn't camp or doesn't have camp elements, but
the attitude that the film is a joke suggests a refusal to engage with its
substance. It's more important *not* to be in on the (alleged) joke.
This is 'camp' only in the vulgar sense that others have already
objected to. It may be more appropriate to label this attitude kitsch
(secretly I prefer 'stupidity'). Kitsch (lit.: trash) may be related to
camp, but I don't think camp can be reduced to kitsch, the valuation of
which I have always found cynical at best. As David has been insisting all
along, the meaningful sense of camp has a positive valence.
Being humorless, I've always found the concept of the unintentionally
funny cringe-inducing.
Fred.
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003, Henrik Sylow wrote:
> The only other description of the word was in relation to Haynes and
> Waters when they talked about certain films they liked, and while it
> seemed that there was a conspiracy amongst gay filmmakers to promote
> bad films (for instance "Showgirls") as art, it was deflated by Waters
> who said, that "one had to be in on the joke" to both understand the
> campness and appriciate it.
5798
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
> I don't know about that, I understand Rivette really
>
> likes "Showgirls", I always thought that the role of
> most mainstream
> critics is to promote bad films as art. You mean to
> tell me their all
> gay?!!
I loathe "Showgirls." I guess I'm going to have to
hand in my Gay Card.
Rivette's enthusiasm for Verhoven mystifies me.
>
> Some the posts on camp are treading into the area
> that I dread when
> people discuss film or any other type of art:
> identity politics.
> Just because one is gay doesn't mean that he/she has
> the absolute
> insight to a particular theory or approach and nor
> is that theory
> valid by default.
Oh I don't know about that. It took Nestor Alemndros
to finally write honestly about Eisenstein. I wasn't
holding my breath for any straight critic to do that.
Gays, queers, etc do not own the
> market on
> transgressive or alternative readings. In fact, I
> find that some
> gays think they have a specially attuned sense of
> critical thinking
> because of their "outsider" status. I think they
> are mistaken: as I
> wrote in my post about the screening of "Neon
> Bible."
There are Gay Yahoos to, you know. I woudln't make a
judgement about "identity politics" on the basis of a
screening at the Castro.
>
> Though I respect Robin Wood's work, I think he is
> guilty at times of
> letting identity politics mar his critical thinking.
> His praise of
> Gregg Araki is enraging to me and I have yet to see
> him reassess his
> claims on Chronenberg with "M. Butterfly" and
> "Crash." Yet the gay
> press has in general dismissed "M. Butterfly" and
> Wong Kar-
> Wai's "Happy Together" because the films were not
> made by a gay
> director so therefore these films are illegitimate.
> I guess we are
> all supposed to stay in our own artistic ghettos.
>
Who said "Happy Together" is illegitimate? I think
it's one of the greatest gay films ever made -- and
proof positive that not all straights are clueless.
Cronenberg's "M. Butterfly" leftme cold, but I love
"Crash." It's an enormous improvement on his egregious
"Naked Lunch" --about which I had a memorable set-to
with him some years back.
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5799
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:41pm
Subject: Re: 1950's Melodrama and presumed Camp.
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> Just to clarify, I wasn't mistaking what they were
> doing as the actual creation of a camp atmosphere,
> nor mistaking the film itself for camp -- but
> pointing out that these delusional kids figured the
> film for such, and believed the rest of the audience
> would get "in on the act" of turning the viewing
> experience into a 'Mystery Science Theater 3000'
> travesty.
>
Actually MST30K shows that camp has gone mainstream.
Specifically in the interplay between Joel/Mike and
the 'Bots.
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5800
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> David:
>
> I had no idea that FAR FROM HEAVEN was written and
> directed by a gay man
> until you told me. (I tend to spend three months at
> a time watching
> nothing but the films of the director I'm working
> on. So I am oblivious
> to new films until they come my way.)
Wow. You'renotfamiliar with Todd's history? You don't
remember when Jesse Helms denounced "Poison" on the
floor of the Senate because it had recieved partial
NEA funding?
>
> Also, I never suspected there was any connection
> between "camp" and gay.
> (I still don't see why there is or should be any
> connection.)
>
> Also, I have no idea what your point about Ford and
> Wayne and Bond is.
> Usually their characters have some irony, and even
> the actors
> themselves.
Well there's irony and there's irony. In camp the
ironic is emphasized in a particularly mirthful way.
If Dietrich can be camp with her veil
> in Scarlet Empress
> then I don't see why Ford characters can't be as
> well.
They can't because they're straight men. Camp objects
and camp expressions are the province of women and gay
men.
Wouldn't you say
> Ford treats repressed homosexuality in ways that
> have a touch of camp?
No. He's always serious. Though a slight camp
aspectcreeps into "Seven Women" due to the fact that
Anne Bancroft is playing John Wayne.
>
> My point was that YOU always cite a relationship
> between your camp
> scenes and real life. Then you say the camp has NO
> relation to real life.
within its own context. There's nothing "real" about
Sirk. That's the whole point.
>
> Also, I have no idea why you say Lana is camp and
> Susan not. To me they
> are both imitations of life, both ironic, both
> ridiculous, both related
> to actual life, both impossible existences except in
> a movie, both tragic.
>
Lana Turner -- a movie star -- plays a woman who wants
to be an actress.Yet she's already a movie star named
Lana Turner. The keymoment is when Sandra Dee says to
her "Oh mother, stop acting!"
Susan Kohner comes from entirely different
circumstances. Her problems are achingly real and
genuinely tragic. To pass for white she must reject
the only person who has truly loved her -- her mother.
Jeez, I'm tearing up just typing this!
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