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5801
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:52pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
and
proof positive that not all straights are clueless.
This is kind of statement I am talking about. I used the "Neon
Bible" as an example of many instances.
By the way David, my clueless straight mentor/professor Tom Gunning
spoke extensively on Eisenstein's homosexuality and I sobbed my heart
out all thought the ending credits of "M. Butterfly" while my
clueless straight friend embraced me as I contined to cry well into
the house lights coming on.
5802
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: I'll camp in the closet!
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
> One wonders if films that get 'dated,' are automatic
> candidates for camp
> reception by some audiences. Not for me.
Not for me either. I was just looking at "Love Me
Tonight" again last night. It's a film of the 30's but
far too sophisticated and knowing about itself to be a
camp artifact of the period -- like the "Golddiggers"
musicals.
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5803
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
> This is kind of statement I am talking about. I
> used the "Neon
> Bible" as an example of many instances.
>
Oh lighten up.
> By the way David, my clueless straight
> mentor/professor Tom Gunning
> spoke extensively on Eisenstein's homosexuality
Well thanks to Almendros' pioneering, now he can. In
the past this was verboten.
and
> I sobbed my heart
> out all thought the ending credits of "M. Butterfly"
> while my
> clueless straight friend embraced me as I contined
> to cry well into
> the house lights coming on.
>
Well everyone loves a good cry.
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5804
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:00pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> > By the way David, my clueless straight
> > mentor/professor Tom Gunning
> > spoke extensively on Eisenstein's homosexuality
>
> Well thanks to Almendros' pioneering, now he can. In
> the past this was verboten.
Really? I'll ask Tom if it was Almendros that gave him the green
light.
5805
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:04pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp (repost)
:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
>
> > > By the way David, my clueless straight
> > > mentor/professor Tom Gunning
> > > spoke extensively on Eisenstein's homosexuality
> >
> > Well thanks to Almendros' pioneering, now he can. In
> > the past this was verboten.
Really? I'll ask Tom if it was Almendros that gave him the green
light and not to being a student of Jay Leda, who may have known
Eisenstein a bit more than Almendros.
5806
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:05pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
How, if at all, is camp manifested in mise en scene? I probably haven't read every post but the examples seem to focus on performance, or the theatrical aspects of film (Marlene's chiffon etc).
5807
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: I'll camp in the closet!
>Not for me either. I was just looking at "Love Me
Tonight" again last night. It's a film of the 30's but
far too sophisticated and knowing about itself to be a
camp artifact of the period -- like the "Golddiggers"
>musicals.
'Love Me Tonight' and 'Applause' were two titles in the batch of films I got for xmas. I haven't watched 'Love Me Tonight' yet, but 'Applause' was -extraordinary-. The sound, being 1929 sound, was hard to keep an ear to all throughout, but that final emotions-thrown-on-the-pyre ecstatic dance at the end with the cross-cuts to Helen Morgan's death is superior filmmaking. The dolly-in to the medicine cabinet, the dissolves from bracelets to rosaries, -- 1929 New York really and greatly chronicled. Way ahead of its time -- Mamoulian had commendable ambition.
Now, speaking of camp, let's talk about the "spiders and flies" Broadway number in 'The Great Gabbo'...
craig.
5808
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:33pm
Subject: Re: EYES without a FACE / Houses / houses of horror?
>I thought the daughter's dress and walk were just perfect, itself adding to the
>whole errie air.
Yes, these moments are undoubtedly the ones that influenced countless comments on the film's "poetry" of horror -- a very true designation. I'm also really fascinated by the doctor's house in this film (well, I'm very interested in big houses or manors in many films... looking at a bunch of my own work that I hope to film some day when that proverbial ball gets rolling, there seems to be house after house after house... maybe because my dream-space is a sort of New England Arkham/Lovecraft exterior/interior), put can't put my finger yet on all the exact whys-'n-wherefores. There's a fine depiction of all the delinated spaces: the outside, the basement kennels, the hidden surgery room, the front-room, the upstairs,... In fact, there's something about the property in Franju's film that reminds me of the estate at the climax of Melville's 'Le Cercle rouge'...
And then of course there's that house in Rivette's 'Secret defense,' and the car-ride through the village and through the gates of the estate that goes on for about two minutes. Rivette made a comment somewhere about the importance of the staircase to the mise-en-scene here -- as though it was itself through its own history (or the history of "the Universal staircase," which I believe is what he cited) instrumental to the murders -- though they only take place in the vicinity of it, not actualy on it. As though its existence off-frame was a significant factor. Nevermind the fact that there are quick fade-out-and-fade-back-in "ellipses" of both shootings, which leave much to be discussed and thought about in this film... I've got three pages of notes stuffed in the DVD keep-case for this which I hope to turn into a essay -some- day...
craig.
5809
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:37pm
Subject: Goodbye South, Goodbye / Dust in the Wind
> I was really disappointed to miss
>before Christmas, but I did get to see family and snow in PA)
Where-about are you from in PA? I'm from the Scranton area, and have also been home for the family thing; back to Brooklyn tomorrow.
>I had even watched GS,G in preparation for getting more out the Farber/
Goren discussion; and the receding rails scenes got my attention. I was
wondering if the scenes were shot with the train running in reverse but
decided not as there are too many passers-by who would be moving out of
the way much more rapidly if a train were approaching...thought it might be
>interesting to do something with that idea.
I think the scenes were just shot from the last car, looking out on the places the train was leaving behind.
I still haven't seen 'Dust in the Wind,' although it's been sitting with the other films in the Hou boxed-set in the sideboard for the last two and a half months... I didn't want to sit and watch them until I could get my semi-decent television out of storage (as opposed to the inbetweener we currently have hooked up).
craig.
5810
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:16pm
Subject: the Universal staircase
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
I've not seen R's SD, but I wonder about "the Universal staircase." Is that a
comment on the fact that the same staircase used in the set design of one
movie is used again in others, with modification? I know the staircase in the
THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS was used elsewhere. Certainly, NYC
street scenes are re-cycled, although I think for STREET SCENE, two duplicate
sets were used because the producer / director did not want to lose talent time
for the lighting changes. They just moved everybody to the other set down the
street, which was lit and waiting.
> And then of course there's that house in Rivette's 'Secret defense,' and the
car-ride through the village and through the gates of the estate that goes on for
about two minutes. Rivette made a comment somewhere about the
importance of the staircase to the mise-en-scene here -- as though it was itself
through its own history (or the history of "the Universal staircase," which I
believe is what he cited) instrumental to the murders -- though they only take
place in the vicinity of it, not actualy on it. As though its existence off-frame
was a significant factor. Nevermind the fact that there are quick fade-out-and-
fade-back-in "ellipses" of both shootings, which leave much to be discussed
and thought about in this film... I've got three pages of notes stuffed in the DVD
keep-case for this which I hope to turn into a essay -some- day...
>
> craig.
5811
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:26pm
Subject: Re: EYES without a FACE / Houses / houses of horror?
I also thought the father's walk up the main stairway was just perfect, and then
followed by the his walk up to the daugher's bedroom. Even if you did not
know what the movie was about, you knew something was amiss.
Houses: I don't recognize your dream house style but would probably
recognize it as I lived in New England for 10 years. If you are in New England,
stop by the MARK TWAIN house in Hartford, Connecticut. It begs for a story to
be filmed there. I know nothing of architecture will attempt the description. It is
an octagon with full porch. The door opens to a central room two stores high
with a complete second floor balcony that shows each room off that balcony to
have a its own entrance. What is not apparent is that behind all those doors,
each room has doors to the adjoining rooms. Twain wanted to be able to go
between his rooms without making an appearance when guests were visiting.
Interesting possibilities for a story, of course, on a much more friendly note
than WISE's THE HAUNTING. And don't forget those movies from JAMES'S A
TURN OF THE SCREW.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
>
> >I thought the daughter's dress and walk were just perfect, itself adding to
the
> >whole errie air.
>
> Yes, these moments are undoubtedly the ones that influenced countless
comments on the film's "poetry" of horror -- a very true designation. I'm also
really fascinated by the doctor's house in this film (well, I'm very interested in
big houses or manors in many films... looking at a bunch of my own work that I
hope to film some day when that proverbial ball gets rolling, there seems to be
house after house after house... maybe because my dream-space is a sort of
New England Arkham/Lovecraft exterior/interior), put can't put my finger yet on
all the exact whys-'n-wherefores. There's a fine depiction of all the delinated
spaces: the outside, the basement kennels, the hidden surgery room, the front-
room, the upstairs,... In fact, there's something about the property in Franju's
film that reminds me of the estate at the climax of Melville's 'Le Cercle rouge'...
5812
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Chinatown
Craig: The 2-part structure is very much there in Full Metal Jacket,
but the hero of that film is the group mind that has been forged in
boot camp, not a single person. The murder of the D.I. in the toilet
is also the elimination of the figure one critic calls "le meneur du
jeu" in Ophuls films- the opening shot of FMJ is a direct copy of the
opening shot of Lola Montes, with Lee Ermy (sp?) in place of Peter
Ustinov.
5813
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Don't bogart that joint
No one holds onto a joint in that way, it's always sucked up and
passed on....
ER, You didn't know my friend Wayne Hening (Yale 1968), who would
hold it, gesture broadly with it, and after twenty seconds take
another puff, talking the whole time to cover his bad manners.
5814
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:39pm
Subject: Elliott Stein
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> By the way, is Elliott still around? He's the person who
told
> me Eustache had killed himself. Never forgot that moment...
>
Elliott Stein's 10 Best List for 2003:
• 21 Grams
• Bus 174
• Capturing the Friedmans
• Elephant
• The Embalmer
• My Architect
• Phone Booth
• The Slaughter Rule
• Spider
• Yossi & Jagger
5815
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:46pm
Subject: Re: Don't bogart that joint
I guess he's one of those who didn't inhale, otherwise, how could he keep on
talking? No wonder he had such bad manners and never learned to share.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> No one holds onto a joint in that way, it's always sucked up and
> passed on....
>
> ER, You didn't know my friend Wayne Hening (Yale 1968), who would
> hold it, gesture broadly with it, and after twenty seconds take
> another puff, talking the whole time to cover his bad manners.
5816
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:46pm
Subject: Re: Cell Phone
Kubrick made good use of Bill's cellphone in Eyes Wide Shut. Larry
Cohen is writing a followup to Phone Booth, Cell Phone, for Joel
Schumacher.
5817
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:53pm
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
Thanks, Joseph K. That gives me something I can at least use to
ground what I'm hearing here, which is making my head spin.
BTW all, what is the relationship of India Song to camp? Is it High
Camp?
5818
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:56pm
Subject: Re: Don't bogart that joint
I guess he's one of those who didn't inhale, otherwise, how could he
keep on talking? No wonder he had such bad manners and never learned
to share.
I've always wondered about that.
General drug question: My sister says a vet she knew was treated with
LSD in an army hospital, during the Vietnam War. She believes this
was widespread: treatment, not experiments. Anyone ever hear this?
Sorry I'm off our main topic, but I found the claim fascinating, and
suspect it would be hard to verify from google.
5819
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:02am
Subject: I grew up in MT. CARMEL, PA
I grew up in MT. CARMEL, PA (every state seems to have a MT. C), one of the
dying towns of the Coal Region, just a few rolling mountains from Appalachia in
terms of economic and psychological depression. Although I did not know it at
the time, when I watched TV, I'm sure I thought the people and places found in
LEAVE IT TO BEAVER, Disney programs, I LOVE LUCY, MAYBERRY, etc
were surreal. The NAKED CITY OF NYC itself seemed closer to reality.
Interestingly, the coal region was one of the first to get cable tv in the fifties
because those small Appalachian mountains, or maybe the dominanting coal
slag piles, interfered with the TV signal. I bet few remember 5 BRANDED
WOMAN (1960) as a childhood memory! (I certainly didn't know what
collaboration meant, sexual or otherwise). I can remember as a child
wondering what movies would have been like if WW2 did not come along as
WW2 was a common movie topic. Additionally, I couldn't understand how
people in college with me in the seventies seemed not to know about the
Holocaust. Didn't they watch movies growing up?
We have a saying...when you grow up in Mt. C, you never feel guilty for the rest
of your life because you have already paid your penance for a crime you did
not commit.
5 BRANDED WOMEN
This is a compelling story of the Yugoslavian underground's fight against the
Nazis. The horrors of war and its pscyhological toll (the "branded" women have
their heads shaved for fraternizing with the enemy) are effectively conveyed by
Ritt's direction and Perilli's screenplay.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> > I was really disappointed to miss
> >before Christmas, but I did get to see family and snow in PA)
>
> Where-about are you from in PA? I'm from the Scranton area, and have also
been home for the family thing; back to Brooklyn tomorrow.
5820
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:07am
Subject: OT: General drug question
I don't know about LSD and Vietnam but it is well know that WW2 pilots were
given amphetamines for long flight over extended hours...part of the reason
San Diego with its airbase for the Pacific remains the metamphetamine capital.
There are movies about that. I've seen a modern movie recently at some film
festival using war time footage about the same.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> I guess he's one of those who didn't inhale, otherwise, how could he
> keep on talking? No wonder he had such bad manners and never learned
> to share.
>
> I've always wondered about that.
>
> General drug question: My sister says a vet she knew was treated with
> LSD in an army hospital, during the Vietnam War. She believes this
> was widespread: treatment, not experiments. Anyone ever hear this?
> Sorry I'm off our main topic, but I found the claim fascinating, and
> suspect it would be hard to verify from google.
5821
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:36am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Thanks, Joseph K. That gives me something I can at least use to
> ground what I'm hearing here, which is making my head spin.
>
> BTW all, what is the relationship of India Song to camp? Is it High
> Camp?
Interesting question. No one has mentioned the concept of "high
camp" yet in this thread. It might have helped (then again it might
have confused things even more).
I keep saying (or rather I've given up)that camp is in the eye of
the beholder and that no film, no work of art is
intrinsically "camp" -- the viewer's relationship to it makes it
camp or not (by the way today's exchanges between Tag and David are
ample proof of that).
"India Song" to the extant that it is a highly artificial and
aestheticized text (both visual and aural)with no surface connection
with traditional "realism", can certainly be viewed as Camp -- High
Camp as opposed to say a grade-Z 1950s SF movie -- but it can also be
viewed, and loved or hated, by people who don't see it as camp at
all, or don't even know what camp is. My suspicion is that people who
tend to be "into" camp probably have to view "India Song" as camp in
order to accept it -- otherwise they might become bored to death.
JPC
5822
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:37am
Subject: India Song and Camp (was definition of camp)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> > Thanks, Joseph K. That gives me something I can at least use to
> > ground what I'm hearing here, which is making my head spin.
> >
> > BTW all, what is the relationship of India Song to camp? Is it
High
> > Camp?
>
> Interesting question. No one has mentioned the concept of "high
> camp" yet in this thread. It might have helped (then again it might
> have confused things even more).
>
> I keep saying (or rather I've given up)that camp is in the eye
of
> the beholder and that no film, no work of art is
> intrinsically "camp" -- the viewer's relationship to it makes it
> camp or not (by the way today's exchanges between Tag and David
are
> ample proof of that).
>
> "India Song" to the extant that it is a highly artificial and
> aestheticized text (both visual and aural)with no surface
connection
> with traditional "realism", can certainly be viewed as Camp -- High
> Camp as opposed to say a grade-Z 1950s SF movie -- but it can also
be
> viewed, and loved or hated, by people who don't see it as camp at
> all, or don't even know what camp is. My suspicion is that people
who
> tend to be "into" camp probably have to view "India Song" as camp
in
> order to accept it -- otherwise they might become bored to death.
>
> JPC
5823
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:49am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
>
>
> "India Song" to the extant that it is a highly
> artificial and
> aestheticized text (both visual and aural)with no
> surface connection
> with traditional "realism", can certainly be viewed
> as Camp -- High
> Camp as opposed to say a grade-Z 1950s SF movie --
> but it can also be
> viewed, and loved or hated, by people who don't see
> it as camp at
> all, or don't even know what camp is. My suspicion
> is that people who
> tend to be "into" camp probably have to view "India
> Song" as camp in
> order to accept it -- otherwise they might become
> bored to death.
>
Not bored in the slightest -- and yes it's camp. In
fact much of Duras is camp.
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5824
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:56am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- jess_l_amortell wrote:
> How, if at all, is camp manifested in mise en scene?
> I probably haven't read every post but the examples
> seem to focus on performance, or the theatrical
> aspects of film (Marlene's chiffon etc).
>
>
A typical example would be the emphasis on the
monumental : "Cobra Woman," "The Prodigal," all of
"peplum" (the "Hercules" and "Machiste" films.
"Johnny Guitar" is great camp.it's apoteosis is the
scene where the lynch mob comes into the saloon to
find Joan Crawford in a frilly white dres playing he
main theme on her grand piano.
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5825
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:57am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp (repost)
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
>
> Really? I'll ask Tom if it was Almendros that gave
> him the green
> light and not to being a student of Jay Leda, who
> may have known
> Eisenstein a bit more than Almendros.
>
>
If Jay Leyda has ever discussed Eisenstein's sexuality
I'd love to know it.
__________________________________
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5826
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:57am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> > Thanks, Joseph K. That gives me something I can at least use to
> > ground what I'm hearing here, which is making my head spin.
> >
> > BTW all, what is the relationship of India Song to camp? Is it
High
> > Camp?
>
Then there's Albert S. Rogell's Song of India -- anything with Turhan
Bey in it is intrinsically camp.
5827
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:22am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
>
> Not bored in the slightest -- and yes it's camp. In
> fact much of Duras is camp.
>
____Please explain, David. You are too much given to cryptic one-
liners. "Much of Duras": Do you mean films or books or both? Or the
person herself? Why "much" and not "all"?
Please write a short but lucid comparison of the respective
campiness of "India Song" and "Song of India". You have two hours.
Neatness counts.
JPC
5828
From: jaketwilson
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:56am
Subject: Gregg Araki (definitions of camp)
> Though I respect Robin Wood's work, I think he is guilty at times
of
> letting identity politics mar his critical thinking. His praise of
> Gregg Araki is enraging to me and I have yet to see him reassess
his
> claims on Chronenberg with "M. Butterfly" and "Crash."
I like most of Araki's '90s films a lot, particularly NOWHERE. He
definitely seemed like a filmmaker who was using (self-conscious)
camp as a political strategy. What happened to him, anyway?
JTW
5829
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:16am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
David Ehrenstein wrote:
> You'renotfamiliar with Todd's history?
Nope. I wasn't paying attention.
> > Ford ... r characters have some irony...
>
> Well there's irony and there's irony. In camp the
> ironic is emphasized in a particularly mirthful way.
This doesn't help me understand you. And I think you miss things in Ford.
>
>
> If Dietrich can be camp with her veil
> > in Scarlet Empress
> > then I don't see why Ford characters can't be as
> > well.
>
> They can't because they're straight men. Camp objects
> and camp expressions are the province of women and gay
> men.
But they are not straight straight. A lot of them have gay streaks and
thus camp streaks. I think you miss all this.
>
>
> Wouldn't you say
> > Ford treats repressed homosexuality in ways that
> > have a touch of camp?
>
> No. He's always serious. Though a slight camp
> aspectcreeps into "Seven Women" due to the fact that
> Anne Bancroft is playing John Wayne.
As I said, I think you miss the repressed gay qualities in a lot of
Ford's characters, and how he and they express this, often in scenes
that you would call camp if you were more aware of what's going on.
Consider Wings of Eagles, for example.
If, on the other hand, you are saying that one has to be a queen of
parade in order for there to be camp, it is not clear why Dietrich's
veil on the sword is camp, since there is no hint of "gay" there.
>
> > My point was that YOU always cite a relationship
> > between your camp
> > scenes and real life. Then you say the camp has NO
> > relation to real life.
>
> within its own context. There's nothing "real" about
> Sirk. That's the whole point.
Oh really, David. Why is Sirk any less "real" than Ford or Mizoguchi or
Dreyer? No decent movie is "real." Art is art. But everything in Sirk
relates to real life.
>
> > Also, I have no idea why you say Lana is camp and
> > Susan not. To me they
> > are both imitations of life, both ironic, both
> > ridiculous, both related
> > to actual life, both impossible existences except in
> > a movie, both tragic.
> >
>
> Lana Turner -- a movie star -- plays a woman who wants
> to be an actress.Yet she's already a movie star named
> Lana Turner. The keymoment is when Sandra Dee says to
> her "Oh mother, stop acting!"
>
> Susan Kohner comes from entirely different
> circumstances. Her problems are achingly real and
> genuinely tragic. To pass for white she must reject
> the only person who has truly loved her -- her mother.
> Jeez, I'm tearing up just typing this!
These are your prejudices. Lana's problems are real to her. Susan's
problems are also of her own invention. I don't think Sirk is being so
condescending, so judgemental of his people. Perhaps some of their
problems SEEM trivial to you (Sandra Dee's?) but people kill themselves
for such trivia all the time. Who among us can claim not to be living
an imitation of life?
5830
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:51am
Subject: Pop-ups
I finally took a minute to download Yahoo Companion, and I'm free of
those annoying pop-ups forever! Plus, my Yahoo service is speeded up,
and lots of other neat features. Download Yahoo Companion today!
5831
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:52am
Subject: Re: Pop-ups
Wait a minute. When I went back to Messages, I got a fucking pop-up!
What is this shit!
5832
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:58am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
Who among us can claim not to be living
> an imitation of life?
Right on, Tag!!! There is no such thing as life ("life", in camp
mode). Only imitations we have to do with. That's why I resented
Sirk's words as mouthed by Halliday.
JPC
5833
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:00am
Subject: Re: Pop-ups
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I finally took a minute to download Yahoo Companion, and I'm free
of
> those annoying pop-ups forever! Plus, my Yahoo service is speeded
up,
> and lots of other neat features. Download Yahoo Companion today!
Sure, but couldn't Pop ups be the ultimate camp delight?
5834
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:15am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
>
>
> "India Song" to the extant that it is a highly
> artificial and
> aestheticized text (both visual and aural)with no
> surface connection
> with traditional "realism", can certainly be viewed
> as Camp -- High
> Camp as opposed to say a grade-Z 1950s SF movie --
> but it can also be
> viewed, and loved or hated, by people who don't see
> it as camp at
> all, or don't even know what camp is. My suspicion
> is that people who
> tend to be "into" camp probably have to view "India
> Song" as camp in
> order to accept it -- otherwise they might become
> bored to death.
>
David: Not bored in the slightest -- and yes it's camp. In
fact much of Duras is camp.
hotlove: Shameful confession: I saw India Song twice when it
premiered at Lincoln Center in 1975. The first time I watched in
entranced silence, rapt to the heavens of esthetic bliss by every
detail, every gesture, every note; the second time I was stoned, and
it started to strike me as funny. I started laughing, and people
around me in the balcony did, too. This kept up through the movie -
my impression is that we were all laughing with, not at - and at the
end Duras came out and said the NY audiences were "drole." I've never
told anyone.
5835
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:16am
Subject: Re: Re: Pop-ups
>Wait a minute. When I went back to Messages, I got a fucking pop-up!
>What is this shit!
If you have a Mac, using the Web with Apple's Safari browser gives you zero pop-ups, for real, for good. It is fantastic.
craig.
5836
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:28am
Subject: PA
> Where-about are you from in PA? I'm from the Scranton area, and have
> also been home for the family thing; back to Brooklyn tomorrow.
Pretty close to my profile: grew up in Wilkes-Barre, just visited for
the holidays, now back in Manhattan.
Mt. Carmel is on the other side of the state, I believe. I remember
they had a superb wrestling team.... - Dan
5837
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:33am
Subject: Re: PA
I'm from Philadelphia.
Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > I'm from the Scranton area,
>
> Pretty close to my profile: grew up in Wilkes-Barre,.
>
>
5838
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:02am
Subject: OT -- Re: PA
Mt. Carmel is about 1 1/2 hours from Scranton, it is in the southwest
corner of the NORTHEASTERN part of the state. There are no big towns around MT. C
although I think Pottsville is on the way to Scranton. Mt. C is 4 miles from Centralia,
the town that was torn down about 10 years ago because of the mine fires. Scranton/
WB was considered a big city in Mt. C and it's a toss up between flying there or to
Harrisburg when I go back to PA. Usually Harrisburg, my sister lives there.
During my HS years (65-69), the football team lost only one game, the track team
hadn't lost a dual meet in over 25 years, and there was at least one state wrestling
champion or two, so I imagine the wrestler team was pretty good, tho somewhat
overshadowed by football, as indeed everything was.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Where-about are you from in PA? I'm from the Scranton area, and have
> > also been home for the family thing; back to Brooklyn tomorrow.
>
> Pretty close to my profile: grew up in Wilkes-Barre, just visited for
> the holidays, now back in Manhattan.
>
> Mt. Carmel is on the other side of the state, I believe. I remember
> they had a superb wrestling team.... - Dan
5839
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:10am
Subject: Campy confessions
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> >
> >
> > "India Song" to the extant that it is a highly
> > artificial and
> > aestheticized text (both visual and aural)with no
> > surface connection
> > with traditional "realism", can certainly be viewed
> > as Camp -- High
> > Camp as opposed to say a grade-Z 1950s SF movie --
> > but it can also be
> > viewed, and loved or hated, by people who don't see
> > it as camp at
> > all, or don't even know what camp is. My suspicion
> > is that people who
> > tend to be "into" camp probably have to view "India
> > Song" as camp in
> > order to accept it -- otherwise they might become
> > bored to death.
> >
>
>
> David: Not bored in the slightest -- and yes it's camp. In
> fact much of Duras is camp.
>
> hotlove: Shameful confession: I saw India Song twice when it
> premiered at Lincoln Center in 1975. The first time I watched in
> entranced silence, rapt to the heavens of esthetic bliss by every
> detail, every gesture, every note; the second time I was stoned,
and
> it started to strike me as funny. I started laughing, and people
> around me in the balcony did, too. This kept up through the movie -
> my impression is that we were all laughing with, not at - and at
the
> end Duras came out and said the NY audiences were "drole." I've
never
> told anyone.
JPC: I must have seen it at the other showing. No one was laughing
but people were walking out in droves.
You've just proved my point: the stoned viewing made the
film "camp" (or at least funny -- not the same thing of course, but
still...)
5840
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:11am
Subject: One definition poorer
Mike wrote:
"Camp has two completely different meanings. One is people laughing at
what they perceive as bad films. I've done this too: "Zontar, the
Thing from Venus" (Larry Buchanan, 1968) had much of my family awash
in giggles one Saturday afternoon."
As I wrote earlier, I thought so too. The term "camp" has been used so
freely in bad film literature and I never read anyone objecting to it.
To me, "camp", for about twenty years, has been "unintentionally
funny" and has gone hand in hand with "kitch", "trash" and "hack".
So now being a definition poorer, what am I watching, now that its no
longer "camp", when I laugh myself silly watching "Mars needs Women"
(Larry Buchanan 1967 - my favorite Buchanan film)?
Henrik
5841
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:17am
Subject: OT -- Re: PA
This thread has been absolutely thrilling! Is anyone dying to
know where I was born and raised? I have quaint anecdotes about life
in Parisian suburbs in the fifties.
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> Mt. Carmel is about 1 1/2 hours from Scranton, it is in the
southwest
> corner of the NORTHEASTERN part of the state. There are no big
towns around MT. C
> although I think Pottsville is on the way to Scranton. Mt. C is 4
miles from Centralia,
> the town that was torn down about 10 years ago because of the mine
fires. Scranton/
> WB was considered a big city in Mt. C and it's a toss up between
flying there or to
> Harrisburg when I go back to PA. Usually Harrisburg, my sister
lives there.
>
> During my HS years (65-69), the football team lost only one game,
the track team
> hadn't lost a dual meet in over 25 years, and there was at least
one state wrestling
> champion or two, so I imagine the wrestler team was pretty good,
tho somewhat
> overshadowed by football, as indeed everything was.
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > > Where-about are you from in PA? I'm from the Scranton area,
and have
> > > also been home for the family thing; back to Brooklyn tomorrow.
> >
> > Pretty close to my profile: grew up in Wilkes-Barre, just visited
for
> > the holidays, now back in Manhattan.
> >
> > Mt. Carmel is on the other side of the state, I believe. I
remember
> > they had a superb wrestling team.... - Dan
5842
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:27am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
>
> This doesn't help me understand you. And I think
> you miss things in Ford.
I'm sure that's true, but I'm not sure I can help you
understand me.
>
> >
> >
>
> But they are not straight straight. A lot of them
> have gay streaks and
> thus camp streaks. I think you miss all this.
>
What "camp streaks"? Not all humor is camp. Not all
irony is camp. Not all exaggeration is camp. Ford is
about Honor, Bravery, Sincerity, Truth.
Camp has no interest in any of this.
>
> As I said, I think you miss the repressed gay
> qualities in a lot of
> Ford's characters, and how he and they express this,
> often in scenes
> that you would call camp if you were more aware of
> what's going on.
> Consider Wings of Eagles, for example.
I have. Your point?
>
> If, on the other hand, you are saying that one has
> to be a queen of
> parade in order for there to be camp, it is not
> clear why Dietrich's
> veil on the sword is camp, since there is no hint of
> "gay" there.
No "hint of gay" in a phallus sheathed in
chiffon?!?!?!!!
>
>
> Oh really, David. Why is Sirk any less "real" than
> Ford or Mizoguchi or
> Dreyer? No decent movie is "real." Art is art.
> But everything in Sirk
> relates to real life.
Eventually. But not like Mizoguchi or Ford, which is
to say DIRECTLY.
>
> >
> > > Also, I have no idea why you say Lana is camp
> and
> > > Susan not. To me they
> > > are both imitations of life, both ironic, both
> > > ridiculous, both related
> > > to actual life, both impossible existences
> except in
> > > a movie, both tragic.
But only Lana is camp.
There's nothing ridiculous about Kohner,BTW.
> These are your prejudices. Lana's problems are real
> to her. Susan's
> problems are also of her own invention.
No they are NOT. Passing for white is MAJORAmerican
story.have you seen "The Human Stain"? Have you ever
heard of Anatole Broyard?
I don't
> think Sirk is being so
> condescending, so judgemental of his people.
> Perhaps some of their
> problems SEEM trivial to you (Sandra Dee's?) but
> people kill themselves
> for such trivia all the time. Who among us can
> claim not to be living
> an imitation of life?
>
That's a serious question, Tag -- not a camp one.
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5843
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:28am
Subject: Re: Gregg Araki (definitions of camp)
--- jaketwilson wrote:
> I like most of Araki's '90s films a lot,
> particularly NOWHERE. He
> definitely seemed like a filmmaker who was using
> (self-conscious)
> camp as a political strategy. What happened to him,
> anyway?
>
> JTW
I saw Greg just last month. He's trying to get a new
project started -- once again about the margins of
gay/straigth life.
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5844
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30am
Subject: Re: OT -- Re: PA
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
>
>
> This thread has been absolutely thrilling! Is
> anyone dying to
> know where I was born and raised? I have quaint
> anecdotes about life
> in Parisian suburbs in the fifties.
>
> JPC
>
>
Go for it, J-P!
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5845
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:37am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
If "camp" is a private gay code, which on occassions also is used by
heterosexual directors, then I have a few questions
- Why would a heterosexual director use a homosexual code?
- In relation to above, both Sirk and von Sternberg has been mentioned
as using "camp". As they are women directors, is "camp" restricted to
a female quality (effeminate) and if so, do/did other female
directors, as Cukor, also use "camp"? If not, what quality does "camp"
ascribe?
- In "The Searchers" Brad breaks down and weaps when realising his
fiancee is dead. Is such display of weakness "camp"? Is it
effemination?
Henrik
5846
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:42am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> ____Please explain, David. You are too much given
> to cryptic one-
> liners. "Much of Duras": Do you mean films or books
> or both? Or the
> person herself? Why "much" and not "all"?
>
> Please write a short but lucid comparison of
> the respective
> campiness of "India Song" and "Song of India". You
> have two hours.
> Neatness counts.
>
> JPC
>
"Tu n'a rien vu a Hiroshima" is High Camp in and of
itself. Likewise the cryptic dialogues of "Destroy She
Said" and the visit by the neurotic washing machine
salesman (Gerard Depardieu) in "Nathalie Granger."
Duras is a Camp figure overall stemming from her
deeply closeted lesbianism (Susan Sontage anyone? No,
I didn't think so) that in her dotage shifted as she
became the Biggest Fag-Hag of All-Time. Her
sado-masochistic relationship with Yann Andrea
(completely obfuscated by the deeply dishonest film
recently made about it "Cet-Amour La") sprang from her
interest in a sad little camp follower (yes, that's a
pun) who always insisted on falling for straight men
who would reject him. Identifying with Anne-Marie
Stretter, Andrea sought out her creator. And being the
vampire that she was, Duras was only too happy to have
a trained-faggot-on-a-leash for "inspiration" --
sucking out his misery and turning it into slim
volumes of tremulously poetic prose, "Blue Eyes, Black
Hair" being the most typical.
He also made the perfect prop, looking quite nice when
stapled into the background of a shot featuring Bulle
Ogier ("Agathe") or as a voice muttering soulfully in
the background.
In short it was "The Triumph of the Will & Grace" en
Francais.
>
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5847
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:42am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> What "camp streaks"? Not all humor is camp. Not all
> irony is camp. Not all exaggeration is camp. Ford is
> about Honor, Bravery, Sincerity, Truth.
>
> Camp has no interest in any of this.
Ford is as much about a lot of other things, in which camp has great
interest. I don't question your sense of the top of the iceberg.
>
> > Consider Wings of Eagles, for example.
>
> I have. Your point?
The repressed and not-so-repressed homosexuality.
>
>
> >
> > If, on the other hand, you are saying that one has
> > to be a queen of
> > parade in order for there to be camp, it is not
> > clear why Dietrich's
> > veil on the sword is camp, since there is no hint of
> > "gay" there.
>
> No "hint of gay" in a phallus sheathed in
> chiffon?!?!?!!!
No. It's his and hers.
>
> >
> > Oh really, David. Why is Sirk any less "real" than
> > Ford or Mizoguchi or
> > Dreyer? No decent movie is "real." Art is art.
> > But everything in Sirk
> > relates to real life.
>
> Eventually. But not like Mizoguchi or Ford, which is
> to say DIRECTLY.
Directly only on the tip of iceberg.
>
> > > > Also, I have no idea why you say Lana is camp
> > and
> > > > Susan not. To me they
> > > > are both imitations of life, both ironic, both
> > > > ridiculous, both related
> > > > to actual life, both impossible existences
> > except in
> > > > a movie, both tragic.
>
> But only Lana is camp.
> There's nothing ridiculous about Kohner,BTW.
There is something ridiculous about Kohner, BTW.
Therefore Kohner is camp?
And I suppose you think there is nothing ridiculous about Ethan Edwards?
or Huw Morgan?
>
>
>
> > These are your prejudices. Lana's problems are real
> > to her. Susan's
> > problems are also of her own invention.
>
> No they are NOT. Passing for white is MAJORAmerican
> story.have you seen "The Human Stain"? Have you ever
> heard of Anatole Broyard?
People pass for all sorts of things. I wrote that Sirk depicts Susan's
being black in America like being a Jew in Nazi Germany. But Susan has
MAJOR problems (not exclusively American) apart from being black, and
it is these problems that both she and Sirk are (also) interested in.
>
>
> I don't
> > think Sirk is being so
> > condescending, so judgemental of his people.
> > Perhaps some of their
> > problems SEEM trivial to you (Sandra Dee's?) but
> > people kill themselves
> > for such trivia all the time. Who among us can
> > claim not to be living
> > an imitation of life?
> >
> That's a serious question, Tag -- not a camp one.
Even if it's put as a cute question by a jester?
In any case, it is certainly Sirk's question, both in this movie and in
most of his others, the constant bewilderment over "who am I?", whether
one is in control, what control one can achieve. Lots of Schopenhauer.
This being the case, may I assume that Sirk is no longer camp?
>
>
5848
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:45am
Subject: Re: PA
While some of you come from PA, I plan to move their in a few years. I
have close friends in Quakertown and Upper Black Eddy. Having spend
time there I totally fell in love with the people and their way of
life (and the cornfields and old houses). I'd love to opend a bed and
breakfast and arranging peach festivals :)
Henrik
5849
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:46am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
> If "camp" is a private gay code, which on occassions
> also is used by
> heterosexual directors, then I have a few questions
>
> - Why would a heterosexual director use a homosexual
> code?
They're Metrosexuals.
>
> - In relation to above, both Sirk and von Sternberg
> has been mentioned
> as using "camp". As they are women directors, is
> "camp" restricted to
> a female quality (effeminate) and if so, do/did
> other female
> directors, as Cukor, also use "camp"? If not, what
> quality does "camp"
> ascribe?
As I think I've pointed out before there's precious
little camp in Cukor -- only "The Women" and "Sylvia
Scarlet." Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're
camp. No camp in Gus Van Sant. Tons of it in Irving
Rapper.
>
> - In "The Searchers" Brad breaks down and weaps when
> realising his
> fiancee is dead. Is such display of weakness "camp"?
> Is it
> effemination?
>
No and No.
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5850
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:53am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
>
> The repressed and not-so-repressed homosexuality.
>
There's nothing intrinsically camp about repressed and
not-so-repressed homosexuality. And there's nothing
camp in "Wings of Eagles."
> >
> > No "hint of gay" in a phallus sheathed in
> > chiffon?!?!?!!!
>
> No. It's his and hers.
Your point?
>
>
> Directly only on the tip of iceberg.
>
What iceberg?
"Titanic" is definitely camp.
>
> There is something ridiculous about Kohner, BTW.
> Therefore Kohner is camp?
No, she's not. Passing for white is not subject to
ridicule in Sirk.Or anywhere else for that matter.
> And I suppose you think there is nothing ridiculous
> about Ethan Edwards?
Nope.
> or Huw Morgan?
Ditto.
>
> People pass for all sorts of things. I wrote that
> Sirk depicts Susan's
> being black in America like being a Jew in Nazi
> Germany. But Susan has
> MAJOR problems (not exclusively American) apart from
> being black, and
> it is these problems that both she and Sirk are
> (also) interested in.
The problem of passing for white is TERRIBLY SPECIFIC.
You can coctail up metaphors until the cows come home
but it doesn't change that fact.
>
> >
>> Even if it's put as a cute question by a jester?
>
> In any case, it is certainly Sirk's question, both
> in this movie and in
> most of his others, the constant bewilderment over
> "who am I?", whether
> one is in control, what control one can achieve.
> Lots of Schopenhauer.
>
> This being the case, may I assume that Sirk is no
> longer camp?
>
No, he's still camp. Sarris even called him
"Hollywood's King of Camp." I don't entirely agree but
he's not far off.
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5851
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:00am
Subject: To the member who sent me...
...the fascinating update on the producer of Hardly Working, Joseph
Ford Proctor, who has apparently carried his nefarious business
methods into the new century without going to jail yet, many thanks!
5852
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:08am
Subject: Re: definitions of camp
David wrote: As I think I've pointed out before there's precious
little camp in Cukor -- only "The Women" and "Sylvia
Scarlet."
What about Maggie Smith's performance in Travels with My Aunt?
5853
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:15am
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> > The repressed and not-so-repressed homosexuality.
>
> There's nothing intrinsically camp about repressed and
> not-so-repressed homosexuality. And there's nothing
> camp in "Wings of Eagles."
My original remark was that Ford treats these matters with some giddy
self-consciousness, yet with an exhibitionistic flare, etc. Seems to me
to resemble your camp.
>
> > > No "hint of gay" in a phallus sheathed in
> > > chiffon?!?!?!!!
> >
> > No. It's his and hers.
>
> Your point?
It's his sword. It's her chiffon. Traditional heterosexual symbolism.
I can't see the "hint of gay." Enlighten me, please.
>
> > Directly only on the tip of iceberg.
> >
> What iceberg?
I meant that it sometimes seems that you see only the surface of Ford,
not the depths.
>
> > There is something ridiculous about Kohner, BTW.
> > Therefore Kohner is camp?
>
> No, she's not. Passing for white is not subject to
> ridicule in Sirk.Or anywhere else for that matter.
Why? Why are certain subjects taboo?
In any case, the "ridicule" isn't aimed at passing, it's aimed at
Susan's existential entanglements.
>
>
> > And I suppose you think there is nothing ridiculous
> > about Ethan Edwards?
>
> Nope.
>
> > or Huw Morgan?
>
> Ditto.
But Ford does -- his films do.
> The problem of passing for white is TERRIBLY SPECIFIC.
> You can coctail up metaphors until the cows come home
> but it doesn't change that fact.
The problem goes beyond the problem of passing for white.
> Sarris even called [Sirk]
> "Hollywood's King of Camp."
He also called Imitation of Life a "black comedy."
>
5854
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:56am
Subject: Re: PA
>I'm from Philadelphia.
>
> > I'm from the Scranton area,
>
> Pretty close to my profile: grew up in Wilkes-Barre,.
>
>
Mt. Carmel, Philadelphia, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton -- strange confluence of Pennsylvanians here -- especially surprised by the Wilkes-Barre connection with Dan. Too bad there's really no place in the area to have suggested (well, now after the fact) any holiday screening-meetings. There's, like, one multiplex, and that's about it, at the Cinemark on Montage Mountain (at the base of which my home is). Oh well, if anyone in NYC is ever interested in getting together for screenings followed by moderate to heavy drinking (the best debates are the slurred ones), let me know.
BTW, the semi-new Pennsylvania Film Festival was pushed back to February this year, for some reason or another...
craig.
5855
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:08am
Subject: Re: OT -- Re: PA
> Scranton/WB was considered a big city in Mt. C and it's a toss up between flying there or to
> Harrisburg when I go back to PA. Usually Harrisburg, my sister lives there.
One thing that's really sad about this area is that taking a flight out of the airport usually tacks an additional $200 onto the ticket price -- even if you just want to get to, say, Durham, without having to drive to Philly or Newark. There's not even a "shuttle flight" at a cheaper price to Philly or JFK or Newark, all of which are about 30 minute flights from here. Nonetheless, the airport (which my house, well, parents' house is about three minutes from on 81) was given all of these state and federal funds to do something with, and so the administrators built a new 650-spot parking behemoth, and "might" build a new terminal, while attendance has been on a steady decline over the last couple years due to the outrageous prices.
Sad movie-related history of the area: Jason Miller (Father Karras of 'The Exorcist' and playwright and writer-director of 'That Championship Season') unfortunately passed away two years ago at Farley's in Scranton, falling over from a heart-attack (I think? or stroke maybe) from his table. He was a really gentle character, very kind, always had an interesting tale to tell, and was -always- at the bars and pubs. He just loved Scranton, and never left. (Side-note: His son, Jason Patric, puts in a -terrific- performance in 'Narc'; so I can't understand why I've heard he's so shit in the new Broadway revival of 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof' -- maybe Ned Beatty's slagging off of him and what's her name, the Judd, in the Times didn't help.)
> tho somewhat overshadowed by football, as indeed everything was.
Oh, no kidding. This area is famous for the visceral death-squadroneering of all its high school football champions. They were treated like the kings of the world even when I was in h.s. (which was, erm, class of '95) -- although it should come as less of a surprise in these more recent 'Elephant'ine times.
craig.
5856
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:11am
Subject: PA(RIS)
> This thread has been absolutely thrilling! Is anyone dying to
know where I was born and raised? I have quaint anecdotes about life
>in Parisian suburbs in the fifties.
Do tell! -- Was it anything like 'Les Quatre cents coups'?
craig.
5857
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:17am
Subject: Re: PA
>Mt. Carmel, Philadelphia, Wilkes-Barre, Scranton -- strange
>confluence of Pennsylvanians here -- especially surprised by the
>Wilkes-Barre connection with Dan....
I wasn't born there, but I spent 16 years in Philly and environs.
Much of my earliest serious film-going took place there.
--
- Joe Kaufman
5858
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:33am
Subject: the Universal staircase / horror houses
>I've not seen R's SD, but I wonder about "the Universal staircase." Is that a
comment on the fact that the same staircase used in the set design of one
movie is used again in others, with modification?
Yes, Rivette was referring to the same staircase appearing over and over, but also to its instrumentality to the mise-en-scene is so many films, even non-Universal ones. 'Notorious' comes most readily to mind. And then again, Browning's 'Dracula' too.
I originally put the blurb "houses of horror" in an earlier post and then forgot to include the relevant question: Does anyone here think that the films 'House' and/or 'The Amityville Horror' are worth revisiting? (I actually can't remember if I've ever "visited" 'House' in the first place.)
Which might make an interesting segue to another local anecdote -- does anyone remember the supposed rampant demonic activity in the household of the Smurles in West Pittston, PA, circa 1986-88? (If nothing else, the house spawned a wretched TV movie a few years later.)
craig.
5859
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:42am
Subject: Full Metal Jacket
>Craig: The 2-part structure is very much there in Full Metal Jacket,
but the hero of that film is the group mind that has been forged in
boot camp, not a single person. The murder of the D.I. in the toilet
is also the elimination of the figure one critic calls "le meneur du
jeu" in Ophuls films- the opening shot of FMJ is a direct copy of the
opening shot of Lola Montes, with Lee Ermy (sp?) in place of Peter
>Ustinov.
Umm, you're referring to the opening shot -after- the head-shearing ("Goodbye My Sweetheart, Hello Vietnam"), natch. I had written out an elaborate timeline/outline of the structure of the film early in the summer, and the thing's gone AWOL, so talk of this film is a sore subject that I need to get over. (Last re-watched, incidentally, the night the U.S. bombed Baghdad.) Am I remembering correctly though that you wrote the essay (cited I think by Rosenbaum in his 'Eyes Wide Shut' review, which I don't have on this particular computer) about the "brain" operating throughout Kubrick's worlds?
5860
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:49am
Subject: Re: Re: PA
>While some of you come from PA, I plan to move their in a few years. I
have close friends in Quakertown and Upper Black Eddy. Having spend
time there I totally fell in love with the people and their way of
life (and the cornfields and old houses). I'd love to opend a bed and
>breakfast and arranging peach festivals :)
Lancaster area (I think that's near Quakertown?) and environs are really lovely. But Henrik, I thought you lived in Denmark! That's gotta be quite a switch.. (Also check out the madness of Jim Thorpe [yes that's a town, and formerly "Mauch Chunk"] and New Hope [home to Jan and Dean Ween] next time you visit -- the latter comprises a ratio of antique store to occult/head-shop that is, I shit you not, approximately 176:113.)
cmk
5861
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:57am
Subject: Ford And Camp
I can't say that I've ever considered Ford camp in any way. He
probably comes closest with the Arthur Walsh and O. Z. Whitehead
characters in The Last Hurrah – interestingly, in Vincent Sherman's
1977 TV version, the former (Skeffington, Jr.) was played by John
Wayne's boy, Patrick – and the Proper, Upright Citizenry in Doctor
Bull, but these are really examples of social satire rather than
camp. I'd certainly be willing to listen to an argument on Tobacco
Road as camp (particularly Marjorie Rambeau), but I would counter
that so much in the film is tremendously heartfelt and affecting as
to counteract campy
Judith Crist felt that the presence of Mike Mazurki in 7 Women in and
of itself rendered that film into the realm of camp, and was a major
reason why she put it on her 10 worst list for that year.
There are examples of kitsch – which exists in a parallel universe
to camp, but is a very different concept – in Ford, most notably in
The Informer and The Fugitive.
5862
From:
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:41am
Subject: Re: PA and the Middle West
All of the list members with PA connections reinforces a theory. To wit: The
American Middle West is a central area for the study of Popular Culture.
Our moderators Fred Camper and Peter Tonguette are from Chicago and Columbus,
Ohio, respectively, and Jonathan Rosenbaum is also Chicago based.
Wisconsin has a long history of film journals and film historians.
Michigan (which is where I have lived most of my life) is the world center of
comic book studies. Dr. Jerry Bails, the "Father of Comic Book fandom", was a
professor at Wayne State University here in Detroit. He started the whole
study of comic books. Today, Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan
has 150, 000 comic books, and a huge collection of comic strips, too. Scholars
come here from all over the world to study them - including Austria and
England. The Comic Art Collection was begun by MSU Professor Russell Nye around
1970. Nye wrote "The Unembarrass'd Muse", the first academic history of Popular
Culture in the United States. He was a close associate of Ray B. Browne, head
of the Popular Culture Association in Ohio - academics who study popular
culture such as mysteries, movies, TV and comics.
Mike Grost
5863
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:41pm
Subject: Re: cukor and camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> David wrote: As I think I've pointed out before there's precious
> little camp in Cukor -- only "The Women" and "Sylvia
> Scarlet."
>
> What about Maggie Smith's performance in Travels with My Aunt?
Contrary to David, I see a great deal of camp in Cukor and regard it
as one of the central aspects of his approach to performance. THE
WOMEN is only the most obvious and extended example. Camp
performances done in a comic and self-knowing manner (mainly but not
exclusively by women), run throughout Cukor's work, stretching from
Lilyan Tashman in GIRLS ABOUT TOWN and Jean Harlow and Marie Dressler
in DINNER AT EIGHT to Sophia Loren in HELLER IN PINK TIGHTS and
Candice Bergen in RICH AND FAMOUS.
Throughout Cukor, there is a celebration of artifice and role-
playing, of his actresses engaging in what Sontag has referred to
as "a state of continual incandescence -- a person being one, very
intense thing." Even in films which are not primarily camp in tone
there are numerous instances of performances which are done in a camp
or near-camp style. Think, for example, of the direction of Jobyna
Howland throughout ROCKABYE, of Lenore Ulric and Laura Hope Crews in
CAMILLE, of the lunch sequence in THE MARRYING KIND with Judy
Holliday, Phyllis Povah, Peggy Cass and the woman who plays Judy
Holliday's sister, of the opening of A STAR IS BORN in which Joan
Shawlee (anticipating Joan Rivers at the Oscars) interrogates Lucy
Marlowe over her outfit ("And the diamonds in the hair! Did you ever
see anybody so sweet, so unspoiled and down to earth?"), of the TV
discussion program in IT SHOULD HAPPEN TO YOU presided over by Ilka
Chase, etc.
I don't want to reduce Cukor's work to being nothing more than the
sum of its camp moments. But I do believe that these moments
constitute one of the numerous defining features of Cukor.
5864
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Elliott Stein
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> > By the way, is Elliott still around? He's the person who
> told me Eustache had killed himself. Never forgot that moment...
Is Elliott Stein still around? Elliott's everywhere. He's been
hosting these BAM Cinemchats for a couple of years now, most recently
for BY THE BLUEST OF SEAS. But he's always at the movies in New York
and you can usually count on seeing him at the Walter Reade when they
show something interesting. (He lives in the neighborhood.) He
shouted out a correction from the audience to a Soviet film scholar
who came to BAM a few weeks ago to discuss Boris Barnet. And when
this woman made a reference to Anna Sten's brilliant success in
Hollywood, this error was more than Elliott could stand. He shouted
out his correction, informing this scholar that Sten's career in
America was one of the most classically mis-managed in all of
Hollywood history. The woman, slightly shaken, said that she
disagreed -- as though one could disagree with Elliott over this kind
of historical detail!
Since he's known practically everbody I was hoping he would be able
to confirm or deny the rumour that Nico was an extra in THE
SANDPIPER. But no such luck.
5865
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: cukor and camp
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> I don't want to reduce Cukor's work to being nothing
> more than the
> sum of its camp moments. But I do believe that
> these moments
> constitute one of the numerous defining features of
> Cukor.
>
Point taken. And neither do I. Cukor's name is not the
one that first comes to mind when thinking of camp,
and it isn't a centralaspectof his work the way it it
is with Sirk and Sternberg.
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5866
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: definitions of camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
>
> My original remark was that Ford treats these
> matters with some giddy
> self-consciousness, yet with an exhibitionistic
> flare, etc. Seems to me
> to resemble your camp.
"Seems to" but isn't.
You seem to think that Camp is some sort of esthetic
condiment -- like ketchup. It isn't.
Moreover there's a MAJOR difference between conscious
CAMPING (which includes everything from Carol
Burnett's movie satires to MST30K) the serious camp of
Eisentein, Sternberg, Sirk and Jack Smith, and the
totally unconscious camp of Maria Montez
John Ford doesn't fit ANYWHERE in here
> It's his sword. It's her chiffon. Traditional
> heterosexual symbolism.
> I can't see the "hint of gay." Enlighten me,
> please.
There's nothing traditional about it. Name me another
film when anything close. And what I'm talking about
here is not eductively gay.
You seem to think that camp=gay. That's not the way it
works. Camp is -- or rather was as its been subsumed
by the overall culture -- central to the (drumroll
please) gay sensibility. And that sensibility has
nothing to do with turning eveything straight into a
metaphor for gay. I know you wish it were that simple,
but it ain't.
>
> I meant that it sometimes seems that you see only
> the surface of Ford,
> not the depths.
Those depths would have to be plumbed in a discussion
other than one involving camp.
> Why? Why are certain subjects taboo?
> In any case, the "ridicule" isn't aimed at passing,
> it's aimed at
> Susan's existential entanglements.
Camp does not simply equal ridicule. All ridicule is
NOT CAMP!
>
> >
>
> But Ford does -- his films do.
All ridicuousness IS NOT CAMP!
> The problem goes beyond the problem of passing for
> white.
>
I can't think of anything bigger. You're in over your
head here, Tag.
>
> > Sarris even called [Sirk]
> > "Hollywood's King of Camp."
>
> He also called Imitation of Life a "black comedy."
>
Sarris was camping.
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5867
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:38pm
Subject: Re: PA
Is anyone in the Philly area aware of indie filmmaker/culture warrior
Andrew Repasky McIlhenney? Chronicle of Corpses? (Dave Kehr's 10 Best
List for 2000.) Georges Bataille's Story of the Eye? (MY ten best
list for 2003.)
5868
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:43pm
Subject: Re: Full Metal Jacket
Craig, Thanks for the correction. I wrote on the film for CdC, and an
expanded version appeared in Incorporations, an anthology Jonathan
Crary edited for MIT Press about 10 years ago. The essay made
explicit use of Deleuze's "cinema of the brain" theory of Kubrick.
Expanding it enabled me to add a section on Kubrick and Ophuls.
5869
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:47pm
Subject: Hawks and Camp
How about Hawks?
5870
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:21pm
Subject: Re: PA
>
> >While some of you come from PA, I plan to move their in a few years. I
> have close friends in Quakertown and Upper Black Eddy. Having spend
> time there I totally fell in love with the people and their way of
> life (and the cornfields and old houses). I'd love to opend a bed and
> >breakfast and arranging peach festivals :)
>
>New Hope [home to Jan and Dean Ween] next time you visit -- the latter comprises
a ratio of antique store to occult/head-shop that is, I shit you not, approximately
176:113.)
> cmk
Or exactly ! (I used to live in Lambertville, across the river)
Upper Black Eddy is pretty nice, I have friends there too. But where you gonna get
your movie fix ? Well The County in nearby Doylestown is pretty good, but otherwise
you're 1, maybe 1 & 1/2 hrs from the I-House & Philly, about the same I guess to NYC
via I-78.
I think it's a bit far north for peach festivals..
-Sam
5871
From: Tag Gallagher
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Ford And Camp
To clarify: I don't like the word camp and I don't like films which are
camp by my definition. And I would chiefly cut off the heads of
audiences that laugh AT movies I like. And I don't consider Ford camp. 7
Women is one of my two favorite Fords.
But we were working with David's floating definition (which is
altogether different and bears no relation to anyone else's or any
dictionary's definition or even to itself for more than a day) and I was
referring to the way certain aspects of repressed homosexuality are
treated -- specifically the friendly fight brawls and the service love
affairs in The Wings of Eagles.
I don't think The Fugitive is kitsch at all. I admire it enormously.
True, it took me about ten viewings over twenty years to get over my
initial reluctance. But I think it's a super masterpiece.
Judith Crist probably pooh-poohed any Ford she came near. She dismissed
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance as "yeoman-like."
Ford often gets knocked for some of his low broad slapstick comedy, and
when I watch the movies alone I can get embarrassed. But when I see them
with audiences, these moments almost always are adored by audiences, and
I would defend them by saying that Ford uses the gamut of comic (and
tragic) styles in order to have such richness in between these extremes.
99.99 percent of his humor is underplayed and not at all bathetic.
Damien Bona wrote:
> I can't say that I've ever considered Ford camp in any way. He
> probably comes closest with the Arthur Walsh and O. Z. Whitehead
> characters in The Last Hurrah . interestingly, in Vincent Sherman's
> 1977 TV version, the former (Skeffington, Jr.) was played by John
> Wayne's boy, Patrick . and the Proper, Upright Citizenry in Doctor
> Bull, but these are really examples of social satire rather than
> camp. I'd certainly be willing to listen to an argument on Tobacco
> Road as camp (particularly Marjorie Rambeau), but I would counter
> that so much in the film is tremendously heartfelt and affecting as
> to counteract campy
>
> Judith Crist felt that the presence of Mike Mazurki in 7 Women in and
> of itself rendered that film into the realm of camp, and was a major
> reason why she put it on her 10 worst list for that year.
>
> There are examples of kitsch . which exists in a parallel universe
> to camp, but is a very different concept . in Ford, most notably in
> The Informer and The Fugitive.
>
>
5872
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:33pm
Subject: director's chair interviews
http://www.industrycentral.net/director_interviews/index.html
I suspect many of you have great access to resources on cinema but as I do not, I'm
inclined to share interesting sources I find on the net.
Any internet cinema resources on directors and writers you might recommend from
your skilled insights are appreciated.
5873
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Ford And Camp
--- Tag Gallagher wrote:
> But we were working with David's floating definition
> (which is
> altogether different and bears no relation to anyone
> else's or any
> dictionary's definition or even to itself for more
> than a day)
Now REALLY!
and I was
> referring to the way certain aspects of repressed
> homosexuality are
> treated -- specifically the friendly fight brawls
> and the service love
> affairs in The Wings of Eagles.
Once again, homosexuality -- represeed or un -- is a
subject unto itself.It is not camp.
As for friendly fight brawls, "Donovan's Reef" is one
of my favorite Ford films.
Any camp in it?
Well maybe Cesar Romero. But that's a consequence of
casting "Butch" in anything whatsoever. "The Devil is
a Woman" is camp enough without him. "Butch" makes it
more so.
But I should stop teasing Tag.
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5874
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Hawks and Camp
How about Cary Grant's famous ad-lib in "Bringing Up
Baby" ?
How about Dewey Martin in a tea-towel in "Land of the
Pharoahs"? (Hubba-Hubba!)
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> How about Hawks?
>
>
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5875
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hou's trains
sam,
thanks for reading it.
unfortunately i haven't had any of my texts translated into english but one,
on a catalogue on brazilian film in the 90s. i had one translated into
french for a brazilian film festival called jangada (or jangada is the name
of the institution, i dunno). it was a brief history of a 70s genre of
soft-porn comedies called pornochanchadas, which were very popular in brazil
the time they were made. the rest is only available in this most beautiful
but unknown dialect (idiolect?) called portuguese.
ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "samfilms2003"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 2:47 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Hou's trains
> "Ruy Gardnier" wrote:
>
> > (actually, I show almost GSG in its entirety since it's one of the best
> > fucking films ever)
>
> Hi Ruy, no disageement from me !
>
> Do you have articles in English anywhere ? I read your writing on GS,G
just now @
> www.contracampo.he.com.br/30/artigos.htm
>
> but in Google translation, your perceptions and insights are amazing but
Google
> translation's a little tricky.
>
> Thanks !
>
> -Sam
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
5876
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Showgirls [was: Re: definitions of camp]
count me in as an admirer of showgirls (and, for any matter, of starship
troopers as well). in the 90s, only the simpsons can tie with those two in
cheap social satire.
ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick M. Veith"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 6:27 PM
> Leaving all other issues aside, I must insist with all due sincerity
> (I can already picture Henrik's outrage) that far from being bad,
> Showgirls is one of the great 'American' films of the 90s. But I think
> Waters is just plain wrong to suggest that there's a joke to be in on.
> This doesn't mean that it isn't camp or doesn't have camp elements, but
> the attitude that the film is a joke suggests a refusal to engage with its
> substance.
5877
From:
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:44pm
Subject: Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson)
Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson, 2003)is a better movie than expected. It is the kind of film rarely taken seriously by film lovers today - a big budget Hollywood action movie. It manages to have such traditional virtues as a plot, characters, some romance and pleasing visual spectacle. It is not 2 hours of numbing violence, although there is plenty of kung fu.
a_film_by members who are sure they loathe this type of film need not sample this - it is not any sort of aesthetic breakthrough or masterpiece. But people who've liked John McTiernan (Die Hard, the 13th Warror) or "Speed" might enjoy this.
Mark Steven Johnson is a screenwriter turned director. I mildly disliked the "Grumpy Old Men" films he wrote, and have not seen his previous directorial outing, "Simon Birch".
"Daredevil" gets better as it goes along. That is partly because one gets involved with the story and the characters.
By contrast, I have been unable to enjoy "The Lord of the Rings" (Peter Jackson) films shown on TV, or even get all of the way through them. Their pro-war propaganda really grates. Also, I do not enjoy their endless horror movie special effects. Reading about orcs on the page is one thing. Seeing them as gross-out monsters is another. Similarly, every time Gollum shows up, I want to look away. The film seems geared to people who like Alien-style gross-out horror films. When I read the fine Tolkien novel around 1970, I never envisioned anything like this. I imagined Middle-Earth as beautiful and full of wonders. The films make the Ents, my favorite characters from the novel, look like horror movie denizens, too.
"The Lord of the Rings" (film version) is so universally popular that I am filled with self-doubt. Am I ignoring a film classic? Should I go ahead and try to adjust to what seems to me to be a "horror movie" + "war is fun" filmmaking idiom? Or is the film an example of the "dumbing down" of popular culture?
Audiences around the world love this. So do critics (Best Film from New York Critics Circle). So why can't I?
Mike Grost
perplexed in Detroit
5878
From: Frederick M. Veith
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: PA
Well this is just too close to home! I live on a farm maybe 10 minutes
outside of New Hope. Been here for c. 15 years, but spent my early
childhood in western Pennsylvania in a town called Gravelpit, about half
an hour from the county seat of Bedford, roughly halfway between
Harrisburg and Pittburgh.
Advice to Henrik: if you're planning on moving here, best do it soon. My
township has gone from 1 development to 1 farm in the space of 20 years,
and the pace is only accelerating. Maybe Quakertown is far enough away to
be spared, but I'm sure that the minions of Target and Wal-Mart will have
their way there in the end.
Quakertown and Upper Black Eddy are in Bucks County (along with New Hope)
north of Philadelphia. Lancaster is actually about 2 counties due west of
the city.
Fred.
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Craig Keller wrote:
> >While some of you come from PA, I plan to move their in a few years. I
> have close friends in Quakertown and Upper Black Eddy. Having spend
> time there I totally fell in love with the people and their way of
> life (and the cornfields and old houses). I'd love to opend a bed and
> >breakfast and arranging peach festivals :)
>
> Lancaster area (I think that's near Quakertown?) and environs are really
> lovely. But Henrik, I thought you lived in Denmark! That's gotta be
> quite a switch.. (Also check out the madness of Jim Thorpe [yes that's
> a town, and formerly "Mauch Chunk"] and New Hope [home to Jan and Dean
> Ween] next time you visit -- the latter comprises a ratio of antique
> store to occult/head-shop that is, I shit you not, approximately
> 176:113.)
>
> cmk
5879
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:06pm
Subject: Re: Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson)
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> "The Lord of the Rings" (film version) is so
> universally popular that I am filled with
> self-doubt. Am I ignoring a film classic? Should I
> go ahead and try to adjust to what seems to me to be
> a "horror movie" + "war is fun" filmmaking idiom? Or
> is the film an example of the "dumbing down" of
> popular culture?
> Audiences around the world love this. So do critics
> (Best Film from New York Critics Circle). So why
> can't I?
>
Because you have taste.
I could barely get through so much as one volume of
Tolkien without falling asleep. There are evidently
huge numbers of people enchanted by hobbits, elves,
wizards and whatnot. Not I.
I love "Time Bandits" and the
Korda-Powell-Berger-Whelan "Thief of Baghdad" was a
central experience of my childhood that carreid right
through to the present (Sabu was the first person I
ever saw in the movies who looked so much as remotely
like me -- and he was the hero!)
I was bored by the first "Rings" film and saw about 15
minutes of the second on DVD. Consequently I've taken
a pass on the third.
I'd rather Sabu.
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5880
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:11pm
Subject: My top 10 of 2003
For better or worse... Here are my Top 10 Best and Worst Films of
2003.
BEST
1. Dogville (Lars von Trier)
2. Ten (Abbas Kiarostami)
3. Solaris (Steven Soderbergh)
4. Le Fils (Dardennes)
5. Dolls (Takeshi Kitano)
6. Return of the King (Peter Jackson)
7. Hero (Zhang Yimou)
8. Finding Nemo (Andrew Stanton)
9. Mystic River (Clint Eastwood)
10. City of God (Fernando Meirelles)
(TV): 24 Season 2
WORST
1. Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson)
2. Terminator 3 (Jonathan Mostow)
3. Hulk (Ang Lee)
4. Kill Bill - Part 1 (Quentin Tarantino)
5. The Core (Jon Amiel)
6. Matrix Revolution (Wachowski's)
7. View from the Top (Bruno Barreto)
8. Love Actually (Richard Curtis)
9. Swimfan (John Polson)
10. Irreversible (Gasper Noe)
(TV): Taken
5881
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:11pm
Subject: Re: Hawks and Camp
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> How about Hawks?
It would be hard to find something campier than the "Ain't There
Anyone Here for Love" sequence in "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes". Credit
Jack Cole rather than Hawks, though, since Hawks didn't direct the
musical numbers and, according to his biographer, was only
superficially involved in their conception (still the number
is "Hawksian" -- and that's what auteurism is all about).
JPC
5882
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:15pm
Subject: OT -- Re: PA
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > This thread has been absolutely thrilling! Is
> > anyone dying to
> > know where I was born and raised?
> >
> > JPC
> >
> >
> Go for it, J-P!
>
>
> I was born in a trunk in the Princess Theater in Pocatello, Idaho.
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
> http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
5883
From: Frederick M. Veith
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:17pm
Subject: Andrew R. McIlhenney [was: Re: PA]
I've seen him around town, but haven't actually seen any of his films.
Story of the Eye was playing midnights in Philly. I would've gone, but
I've been chained to my thesis since September. He was supposed to become
the film editor of a new paper that some friends from college started (The
Philadelphia Independent), but looking through recent issues, nothing
seems to have come of that. I've been given to understand that he's
something of a fabulist...
Do I recall (dimly) that you wrote something about Story of the Eye?
Fred.
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, hotlove666 wrote:
> Is anyone in the Philly area aware of indie filmmaker/culture warrior
> Andrew Repasky McIlhenney? Chronicle of Corpses? (Dave Kehr's 10 Best
> List for 2000.) Georges Bataille's Story of the Eye? (MY ten best
> list for 2003.)
5884
From: Michael Lieberman
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:24pm
Subject: Re: My top 10 of 2003
I'm putting Dogville on my list for next year (it would be #1 if I considered it for this year's list)...my current #1 is Elephant (followed by Star Spangled to Death, K Street,
Lost in Translation). I've missed the Kiarostami and Dardennes works, sadly.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 19:11:01 -0000
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] My top 10 of 2003
For better or worse... Here are my Top 10 Best and Worst Films of
2003.
BEST
1. Dogville (Lars von Trier)
2. Ten (Abbas Kiarostami)
3. Solaris (Steven Soderbergh)
4. Le Fils (Dardennes)
5. Dolls (Takeshi Kitano)
6. Return of the King (Peter Jackson)
7. Hero (Zhang Yimou)
8. Finding Nemo (Andrew Stanton)
9. Mystic River (Clint Eastwood)
10. City of God (Fernando Meirelles)
(TV): 24 Season 2
WORST
1. Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson)
2. Terminator 3 (Jonathan Mostow)
3. Hulk (Ang Lee)
4. Kill Bill - Part 1 (Quentin Tarantino)
5. The Core (Jon Amiel)
6. Matrix Revolution (Wachowski's)
7. View from the Top (Bruno Barreto)
8. Love Actually (Richard Curtis)
9. Swimfan (John Polson)
10. Irreversible (Gasper Noe)
(TV): Taken
Yahoo! Groups Links
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
5885
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:44pm
Subject: Re: My top 10 of 2003
> For better or worse... Here are my Top 10 Best and Worst Films of
> 2003.
Since I'm getting on a plane later today, and by the time I step off on
the other end there will be only a few hours left in 2003, I thought I
should post my list (ah! the coveted top ten... yes, still sticking to
this silly practice):
I. Elephant (Gus Van Sant)
II. Vai-e-vem (João César Monteiro)
III. Stuck on You (Peter and Bobby Farrelly)
IV. Shara (Naomi Kawase)
V. L’histoire de Marie et Julien (Jacques Rivette)
VI. Warming By the Devil’s Fire [TV] (Charles Burnett)
VII. Ana y los otros (Celia Murga) / Struggle (Ruth Mader)
IX. Once Upon a Time in Mexico (Robert Rodriguez) / Purple Butterfly
(Lou Ye)
Honorable mentions (roughly in order of preference):
Looney Tunes: Back in Action (Joe Dante)
The Brown Bunny (Vincent Gallo)
The Saddest Music in the World (Guy Maddin)
Cold Mountain (Anthony Minghella)
A Talking Picture (Manoel de Oliveira)
I also feel like I need to mention the two most loathsome films of
2003. This paragraph is from a year-end wrap-up I'm still working on
(so please excuse it if it doesn't exactly make sense just yet):
6. Michael Bay’s invasion of Cuba in Bad Boys II and Bruno Dumont’s
American invasion with 29 Palms share the honor for single stupidest
achievements of 2003.
More than a mere puppet, Michael Bay has stylized every frame of his
film at Level 4 World Catastrophe, even if for the bulk of its two and
a half hour runtime all we get is solipsistic banter of two American
police officers. As a commentary, Bad Boys II never fails to
dichotomize personal politics and police procedural; the arrangement of
Lawrence and Smith, violence and ethics, Miami and Cuba, make it
entirely plausible that Americans are capable vigilantism when it comes
to world affairs. Next to Bay's American cultural rape, Dumont’s
physical/emotional rape of his main character at the hands of predatory
desert rovers is the sadistic end to a simplistic means – much like the
"bad boys"'s homicidal Hummer-ride through a Cuban shantytown in order
to save their own callous lives. Dumont even presents us with his own
Hummer, "a space-shuttle to traverse this unknown territory," the
director was overheard saying in Toronto. It is telling that, in the
same way that Americans fear Cuba, Dumont enlists a sturdy hunk of
steel and rubber to protect him against whatever it is that’s "unknown"
to him about the American landscape.
See you in 2004 ya dirty bastards.
Gabe
5886
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:47pm
Subject: Re: PA(RIS)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
> > This thread has been absolutely thrilling! Is anyone dying to
> know where I was born and raised? I have quaint anecdotes about
life
> >in Parisian suburbs in the fifties.
>
> Do tell! -- Was it anything like 'Les Quatre cents coups'?
>
> craig.
Very much so. Antoine Doisnel, c'est moi. JP
5887
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:52pm
Subject: Re: OT -- Re: PA
No kidding!
I was born in the trunk of a '52 Chevy.
Left some very ugly scars.
George Robinson
Never play a guy at his own game; nobody
makes up a game in order to get beat at it.
--Charlie Goldman
> >
> > I was born in a trunk in the Princess Theater in Pocatello, Idaho.
> >
5888
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Monumental Camp (was definitions of camp)
Not to belabor the camp discussion, but the
question of how "the emphasis on the monumental"
intersects with camp is fascinating (to me, at
least). Certainly no one would question that The
Prodigal is camp through to its fingertips, as
are Land of the Pharoahs, The Egyptian, much of
Quo Vadis, and Samson and Delilah. (Come to think
of it, there are precious few DeMille films that
are NOT camp: maybe The Whispering Chorus and most
of Story of Dr. Wassell).
On the other hand, many films conceived as monumental
spectacles are not regarded as camp, such as Knights
of the Round Table (which is simply dull), Gance´s Napoleon,
Wyler´s Ben Hur, Kawalerowicz´s Pharaon, Lawrence of Arabia,
Cheyenne Autumn, Apocalypse Now, or the recent Suriyothai.
There may be an element or scene that can be relished as camp
(like Stephen Boyd´s lustful looks at Charlton Heston), but
audiences of any kind would not find much to chuckle at.
Apart from Jack Palance´s performance, is Sign of the Pagan
camp, or Barabbas? How about Captain From Castile or David
and Bathsheba? (These seem quite sober, as we´d expect from
Henry King). Then, as JP keeps suggesting, a film might work
on different levels for different spectators. The Greatest Story
Ever Told, for instance, can be appreciated by pious viewers as
a glossy gospel ilustration, yet more "knowing" audiences will
see as ludicrous the cameos by Shelley Winters and John Wayne,
as well as the over-the-top sequences with Van Heflin and Jose
Ferrer.
Which Hannibal story is more camp, the (relatively) serious
treatment in Scipio l´Africano or the musical-comedy treatment
in Jupiter´s Darling?
Are some directors more likely to produce camp than others?
Could Henry King or Wyler direct camp? Could DeMille or George
Sidney NOT direct camp? How can we reconcile that Jet Pilot can
be enjoyed as a serious film but equally as outrageous camp, what
with the aggressively sexual Janet Leigh enticing John Wayne, of
all people, to decamp to the Soviet Union, at the height of the
McCarthy era?
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> A typical example would be the emphasis on the
> monumental : "Cobra Woman," "The Prodigal," all of
> "peplum" (the "Hercules" and "Machiste" films.
5889
From:
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:32pm
Subject: Bios and Lists
A quick reminder that if you'd like to enter your 2003 Top 10 into our Top 10
Project, just e-mail me and I'll do so.
And if you want to contribute an autobiography of yourself more detailed than
what state you hail from (I'm one state over from PA - Ohio), please
contribute to our group's ongoing Bios project. Fred collects and posts them.
You can access both the Top 10s and the Bios here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/files/
Peter
5890
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:37pm
Subject: Re: The Major and the Minor return
I´m just now catching up, so let me suggest
a couple more "minor" musicals. Norman Taurog´s
delightful You Can´t Have Everything (1937) has
a score full of forgotten gems by Gordon & Revel,
sung by Alice Faye, Don Ameche, and an almost
adolescent Tony Martin. There are no elaborate
production numbers, but just one enjoyable song
after another (including a great number where
Alice Faye sings with Louis Prima).
Another true obscurity is Arthur Dreifuss´s Ever Since
Venus (1944), which has a plot (about the invention of
"kiss-proof" lipstick) that lifts elements out of Preston
Sturges´s life, then adds some numbers that play like Cover
Girl on a B-budget. The leads are Ross Hunter (just before
he moved to producing) and a quite glamorous Ann Savage,
both singing and dancing, plus it has a gravelly duet sung
by the unlikely duo of Glenda Farrell and Billy Gilbert.
It´s fast, it´s often funny, and the songs aren´t bad at
all. (This is one title that somehow escaped Clive Hirschhorn´s
radar in his book on movie musicals).
Still another that´s worth seeing is Leisen´s swan song,
The Girl Most Likely, which features a very spirited dance
number ("Catalina"!) while Jane Powell and Cliff Robertson
essay Ginger Rogers´ and Burgess Meredith´s roles from
Tom, Dick and Harry.
--Robert Keser
5891
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Monumental Camp (was definitions of camp)
--- Robert Keser wrote:
>
> Which Hannibal story is more camp, the (relatively)
> serious
> treatment in Scipio l´Africano or the musical-comedy
> treatment
> in Jupiter´s Darling?
The latter. Spectacle films always risk camp. But most
of them are merely kitsch. This as important
distinction.
>
> Are some directors more likely to produce camp than
> others?
Definitely.
> Could Henry King or Wyler direct camp?
Not really. Kitsch, yes.
Could DeMille
> or George
> Sidney NOT direct camp?
That's an interesting question in light of "The Harvey
Girls." I don't think it's camp. Your mileage may
vary.
How can we reconcile that
> Jet Pilot can
> be enjoyed as a serious film but equally as
> outrageous camp, what
> with the aggressively sexual Janet Leigh enticing
> John Wayne, of
> all people, to decamp to the Soviet Union, at the
> height of the
> McCarthy era?
>
NOW you're talking camp! And the campers responsible
include Howard Hughes.
__________________________________
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Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
5892
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Major and the Minor return
--- Robert Keser wrote:
>> Still another that´s worth seeing is Leisen´s swan
> song,
> The Girl Most Likely, which features a very spirited
> dance
> number ("Catalina"!) while Jane Powell and Cliff
> Robertson
> essay Ginger Rogers´ and Burgess Meredith´s roles
> from
> Tom, Dick and Harry.
>
Actually it's called "Balboa." Gower Champion
choreographed it. It has dancers leaping about in a
few inches of water next to a dock. Tommy Tune took
the idea for his big duet with Twiggy in "My One and
Only."
"The Girl Can't Help It" was the very last RKOfilm.
Jane Powell once spoke of ho strange it was in that
once something was finished the set closed down for
good. At the end every department at RKO was
shuttered.
Very charming film
__________________________________
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Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
5893
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:51pm
Subject: Re: Monumental Camp (was definitions of camp)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Could DeMille
> > or George Sidney NOT direct camp?
>
> That's an interesting question in light of "The Harvey
> Girls." I don't think it's camp. Your mileage may vary.
I haven´t seen The Harvey Girls in a long time, but it
strikes me that The Eddy Duchin Story is near-perfect
kitsch: really heartfelt and sometimes moving yet absurdly
exaggerated (while distorting all the facts, incidentally).
However, I wouldn´t call it camp solely because its excesses
are never funny (to me, anyway).
>
> How can we reconcile that
> > Jet Pilot can be enjoyed as a serious film but equally as
> > outrageous camp, what with the aggressively sexual Janet
Leigh enticing
> > John Wayne, of
> > all people, to decamp to the Soviet Union, at the
> > height of the McCarthy era?
> >
>
> NOW you're talking camp! And the campers responsible
> include Howard Hughes.
Actually, Howard Hughes was virtually a one-man camp factory.
Consider his resume: The Outlaw, Jet Pilot, The French Line,
the enduringly risible Son of Sinbad, and the gold standard
of camp, The Conqueror.
--Robert Keser
5894
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Monumental Camp (was definitions of camp)
--- Robert Keser wrote:
>
> I haven´t seen The Harvey Girls in a long time, but
> it
> strikes me that The Eddy Duchin Story is
> near-perfect
> kitsch: really heartfelt and sometimes moving yet
> absurdly
> exaggerated (while distorting all the facts,
> incidentally).
> However, I wouldn´t call it camp solely because its
> excesses
> are never funny (to me, anyway).
True. And "The Harvey Girls" is a really great
musical, plain and simple.
Though in some ways it could represent a re-creation
of the foudnding of West Hollywood by a bevvy of
cater-waiters and chorus boys.
> Actually, Howard Hughes was virtually a one-man camp
> factory.
> Consider his resume: The Outlaw, Jet Pilot, The
> French Line,
> the enduringly risible Son of Sinbad, and the gold
> standard
> of camp, The Conqueror.
>
Atomic Camp!
__________________________________
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Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
5895
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42pm
Subject: Re: Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson)
> Daredevil (Mark Steven Johnson, 2003)
is a better movie than expected. It is the kind of film rarely
taken seriously by film lovers today -
a big budget Hollywood action movie. It manages to have such
traditional virtues as a plot, characters, some romance and pl
easing visual spectacle. It is not 2 hours of numbing violence
, although there is plenty of kung fu.
I saw this last week. I thought it was one of the worst
direct things I saw in while and remember that I keep
thinking that it could have being pretty good film with a
pleasant hack like Andrew Davis directing it.
> "The Lord of the Rings" (film version) is so universally pop
ular that I am filled with self-
doubt. Am I ignoring a film classic? Should I go ahead and try
to adjust to what seems to me to be a "horror movie" + "war i
s fun" filmmaking idiom? Or is the film an example of the "dum
bing down" of popular culture?
> Audiences around the world love this. So do critics (Best Fi
lm from New York Critics Circle). So why can't I?
They're crap. (I haven't seen Part 3 yet). I remember when
seeing part two in a press screening, that at a certain
momment it looks like it was going to end, "What a relief", I
thought, "At least this one doesn't feel like it runs 10
hours". Then I look at the clock and discovered that what I
thought to be the whole film, was only the first 50 minutes.
Filipe
---
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br
5896
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:45pm
Subject: Re: A little factual Minnelli/Stuart Byron question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Again, a question calling on our collective knowledge three decades
ago
> Stuart Byron wrote an article on Minnelli in which he argued that
> Minnelli's main theme was "freedom." As far as I know, this was
never
> published. Am I wrong; was it in fact published somewhere?
>
> - Fred
I haven't read Byron's famous (and famously unread, due to the
obscurity of the periodical in which it was published) piece on ON A
CLEAR DAY. But since I'm off for most of this month (much of which
will be spent, ironically, in writing a piece on Minnelli for Senses
of Cinema)I plan on looking for it at the New York Public Library and
I can check on this "freedom" idea. I certainly hope there's more to
the piece than that, though. To appropriate one of Aunt Alicia's
lines from GIGI: "Well, it's all right. But it's a bit vague."
It's never occurred to me that this was Minnelli's main theme, so the
piece could either be a revelation or a major disappointment.
However, I wonder, Fred, if you're not thinking of Paul Mayersberg's
essays on Preminger in MOVIE from the 1960s, particularly the one
comparing CARMEN JONES and PORGY AND BESS. There Mayersberg
makes "freedom" the common subject of those two films and a major
preoccupation of Preminger's work in general.
5897
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Monumental Camp (was definitions of camp)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> >
> > Could DeMille
> > > or George Sidney NOT direct camp?
> >
> > That's an interesting question in light of "The Harvey
> > Girls." I don't think it's camp. Your mileage may vary.
>
"The Harvey Girls" is decidely not camp. "Kiss Me Kate" is not
camp. "The Three Musketeers" is not camp. "Scaramouche" is barely
borderline camp. And these are arguably the four best movies by an
otherwise not very interesting director. "Thousand Cheers", "Bathing
Beauty", Anchors Aweigh" and "Annie get Your Gun" which are, in my
opinion, atrocious, are not very campy (Is Skelton in a tutu campy?
Is Hutton's over-the-topness campy? David please render a
ruling). "Pal Joey" is pretty awful too without being campy at all.
JPC
> Actually, Howard Hughes was virtually a one-man camp factory.
> Consider his resume: The Outlaw, Jet Pilot, The French Line,
> the enduringly risible Son of Sinbad, and the gold standard
> of camp, The Conqueror.
>
"Son of Sinbad" is delightful tongue-in-cheek camp. Vincent Price
as Omar Kayyam delivers unforgettable aphorisms (he writes poetry for
Sinbad's son to use to seduce the ladies). There is Aristotle's
daughter, the 40 girl thieves (daughters of the 40 thieves), someone
discovers or re-invent Greek fire, and a donkey named Sesame
operates the door to the cave when told "Open, Sesame!". Dale
Robertson in a turban is worthy of Turhan Bey and there is Mari
Blanchard and Lili St Cyr inter alia. What more could a camp follower
ask for?
JPC
> --Robert Keser
5898
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:52pm
Subject: Re: My top 10 of 2003
My Top 14 of 2003:
1 - The Story of Marie and Julien (Rivette)
2 - Mystic River (Eastwood)
3 - Vai e Vem (Monteiro)
4 - A Talking Picture (Oliveira)
5 - Goodbye Dragon Inn (Tsai)
6 - O Signo do Caos (Sganzerla)
7 - Down with Love (Reed)
8 - The Return of the Prodigal Son (Straub/Hulliet)
9 - Lost in Translation (Coppola)
10 - Raja (Doillon)
11 - All the Real Girls (Green)
12 - Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle (McG)
13 - Looney Tunes: Back in Action (Dante)
14 - Strayed (Techine)
Worst by far: Bad Boys 2 (Bay)
---
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br
5899
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:58pm
Subject: 2003
10 best released commercially in Rio in 2003
1. Mystic River + L'Anglaise et le Duc + Spirited Away
4. Far From Heaven
5. Dolls
6. Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle
7. Va Savoir
8. The Man Without a Past
9. Femme Fatale
10. Looney Tunes Back in Action + Spy Kids 3D + Once Upon a Time in Mexico
10 best films first screened in Brazil in 2003
1. Elephant (Gus VAN SANT)
2. O Signo do Caos (Rogério SGANZERLA)
3. Um Filme Falado (Manoel de OLIVEIRA)
4. Shara (Naomi KAWASE)
5. Mystic River (Clint EASTWOOD)
6. Vai e Vem (João César MONTEIRO)
7. Far From Heaven (Todd HAYNES)
8. O Prisioneiro da Grade de Ferro (Paulo SACRAMENTO)
9. Chihwaseon (IM Kwon-taek)
10. Lost in Translation (Sofia COPPOLA)
11. Histoire de Marie et Julien (Jacques RIVETTE)
12. Filme de Amor (Julio BRESSANE)
5900
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:11pm
Subject: Va savoir + ou _
>
> 7. Va Savoir
Do you know whether the version shown in Brazil was the widespread
theatrical release (approx. 2 hours and 40 minutes), or whether it was
Rivette's definitive cut, 'Va savoir +' (approx. 3 hours and 30
minutes)?
Also, does anyone on this list know whether there are any plans for the
'+' version to be released on DVD, or whether there are any bootlegged
dubs? (Both unlikely, the latter especially because I'm assuming
there's never even been a transfer to video as of yet.)
And: Any word on a French coffret-follow-up to the previous one that
including 'L'Amour par terre' through 'Secret défense'?
craig.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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