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This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
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6301
From: Maxime
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:23am
Subject: Re: The actor & the aquarium (Bergala/Mourlet)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ciccone"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime" wrote:
> This is an extraordinary description of a movie that I've never
> seen--we already have the Rohmer/Bazin "God's window" view of the
> rectangle; this one may be better!
Maybe. What disatisfies me the most in this theory is the "water
problem". I don't like the idea of the compressed/"drowned" bodies.
I like to feel that the face creates a vaccum all around (Mizoguchi,
most of Pabst)
6302
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:40am
Subject: Re: Re: Narrative/Avant-garde/Theory, Refined
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>I'm surprised that neither "Lady From Shaghai" nor
>"Duelle" has been mentioned.
>
>Both include Aquarium scenes.
>
>
>
Well, they're both great movies, but not as great as the underwater
aquarium images in Brakhage's "Song 8." (Just trying to show I can
exchange light-hearted but serious one-lineers with the best of us....)
- Fred
6303
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:43am
Subject: Re: Narrative/Avant-garde/Theory
Mike wrote...
"There are two kinds of plot: a series of events, versus a chain of
logically caused events.
"A man ate some blueberries, then went to bed" is a series of
unrelated events.
"A man ate poison mushrooms, which made him sick" is a chain of events
which are logically related."
I strongly disagree with that, as plot by definition simply is order
of events, or simply events, or simply an event; thus there are
billions kinds of plot. Weather they are connected by a logic chain of
causality or by chronology or are unconnected is irrelevant to the
plot. But not to the story, as story is plot told - and plot told is
narrative.
Earlier Fred wrote...
"Face it: the mechanism of narrative as realized in the commercial
narrative film has no particular artistry attached to it. I can get
hooked too, though full of discontents over bad imagery, by the
mechanisms of Hollywood manipulation, wondering with some anxiety
whether the bad guy is or is not going to get blown up by the end."
I assume that by this Fred suggests, that non commercial narrative
film has a particular artistry attached to it, and if so, what is a
non commercial narrative film? Is that a film which is made with the
intention never to make money? or never to be of interest to the
general population? If so, is a flop artistic? If so, is a non
commercial narrative film which by chance becomes a succes (a sleeper,
in lack of other terms) not artistic?
I fail to see how the notion of wanting as many people as possible to
see ones film can invalidate any artistic skills put into a film.
Fred continued...
"The avant-garde filmmaker argument against such a mechanism is that
it's stupidly manipulative and locks the viewer into particular
emotions rather than frees him to find his or her own."
But doesn't the very nature of narrative, of discours, lock the viewer
into the course of the teller? Film in its very nature steals part of
our imagination, avant-garde or commercial, as it creates imagery.
Take a joke. The very structure of a joke (introduction, build-up,
punchline) manipulates us into laughter. But most important about a
joke is, that etiquette makes us ask before we tell. We do not simply
tell a joke, we ask "Wanna hear a joke?" or announce it otherwise. One
can then choose to laugh or not, perhaps even critic the joke, but I
will argue, that the argument that the mechanisms of a joke rubs us
from being able to laugh.
Richard Raskin talks about how short film can be a, even narrative,
representations of a sentences, a single word even an emotion or state
of mind. While a sentence can be plot, even narrative in itself, an
emotion or state of mind cannot. But even the representation of state
of mind does not rule out a narrative, as one has to make others aware
of it.
I would argue, that in order to make one aware of anything, even a
state of mind, one has to manipulate the viewer. If I for instance
showed a bouncing ball and wanted to express the evergrowing problem
of world hunger, few would see the connections. I would have chose
imagery which would at least hint at world hunger and as such wouldn't
I manipulte and lock "...the viewer into particular emotions rather
than frees him to find his or her own"?
If so, is avant-gardism as Fred describes it empty imagery?
Henrik
6304
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:44am
Subject: Re: Narrative/Avant-garde/Theory, Refined
Oh and let's not forget "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" and its
unforgettable gold fish hysteria! (although, david, this has nothing
to do with Bergala...)
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> I'm surprised that neither "Lady From Shaghai" nor
> "Duelle" has been mentioned.
>
> Both include Aquarium scenes.
>
> --- samfilms2003 wrote:
> >
> >
> > > "What Time Is It There" all qualify for me to
> > yield cats on dog's mats,
> >
> > Husband in the fish's tank, even better ;-)
> >
> > -Sam
> > In The Age of Aquarium
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6305
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:54am
Subject: Re: the Actor and the Aquarium (Bergals/Mourlet)
I think that Bergala got his aquarium metaphor from an article with
that title by Serge Daney on Milestones, which is reproduced in La
rampe. Milestones is a great political film made by Robert Kramer and
John Douglas with a huge cast of Movement people (regulars, not
stars) in 1975. It was shown at Lincoln Center ("Those were the days,
my friends/We thought they'd never end") and disappeared, as far as I
know, along with Robert Kramer, who went to live and work in France,
where he died 3-4 years ago of some out-of-the-blue ailment.
Milestones jumps all over the US following the lives of a variety of
Movement types (who aren't types: they seem real - at first you
assume you're watching a documentary) and lasts over 3 hours. By the
end a webwork of lives has been created that has little to do with,
say, Nashville's way of networking people, and the image Daney used
to describe this was an aquarium. Bergala certainly knows that
article, and Milestones is the quintessential aquarium film because
it describes a collective which is coming to be on the screen as you
watch. The opposite of Mourlet's famous quote.
I think that by attributing the Mourlet quote to Bazin in Contempt
and Les histoire(s), Godard was saying that it exists side-by-side
with Bazin's "Things are there, why manipulate them" (also quoted in
Les Histoire[s]) in the Cahiers tradition of writing about and making
films, and in his (Godard's) own head. Nonetheless, the producer who
is slobbering over the Nausica rushes (Palance) and says "I like
Gods" is a fascist who utters a big Nazi's line - "When I hear the
word culture, I take out my revolver" - with "checkbook" substituted
for "revolver." Lang films the gods, but he is not on their side -
he's on the side of Ulysses. IMO Godard ultimately comes down on the
side of Bazin and Rossellini, not on the side of Hollywood as
glorified by Mourlet, however much he loves that cinema himself - in
his own work, at least. Biette, as I noted previously, thought that
Mourlet's "Sur un art ignore" was inspired by Valery's "The Method of
Leonardo da Vinci."
I hope that the work of Robert Kramer, which is being restored (I
believe by the Cinematheque), will eventually be shown and circulated
here as well as in France. I recently watched a dupe-y tape of Ice
that I got at Cinefile-another film I hadn't seen since the 70s-and
it is politically and esthetically as strong as ever. And as
relevant. Milestones is an amazing film which really deserves to be
seen again.
When we asked Robert to write about a neglected masterpiece for the
book we did on the occasion of Locarno's 50th, he picked "Killer of
Sheep."
6306
From: jaketwilson
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:59am
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
One thing that struck me in the first CHARLIE'S ANGELS was that much
of it seemed like direct parody of the ludicrous self-aggrandisment
of Tom Cruise in MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 2 -- the Nietszchian hero who
climbs mountains on his day off, etc. I'm thinking specifically of
the Looney Tunes transformations, which in MI2 aren't played for
laughs.
Even apart from that, the film undoubtedly plays as a self-conscious
inversion of the conventional male-centred action film -- a co-
operative group of heroes rather than an individual, self-conscious
amateurism rather than virtuosic skill, multiple digressions rather
than straight-ahead narrative, and a constant winks to the audience
acknowledging the whole plot as a paper-thin contrivance. I think
this can fairly be called feminist, or post-feminist at least: the
girls deflate some of the pompositiy surrounding male fantasies by
showing us how easy it is for anybody to indulge in these fantasies
(supposing they have the budget). As for the whole business
with "Charlie", surely we're meant to understand it as a slightly
kinky game, playing at submission (this becomes explicit in the final
scene): it's crucial to the meaning of the whole that all know Drew
Barrymore's really the one pulling the strings.
As for KILL BILL, I'm afraid that as far as I can see it has nothing
to do with feminism, but a lot to do with fantasy castration
scenarios straight from QT's undoubtedly traumatic '70s childhood. It
did make me curious about his relationship with his mother...
JTW
6307
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:36am
Subject: Re: Narrative/Avant-garde/Theory
A few thoughts about narrative cinema:
In a Fritz Lang film, every shot is the effect of the previous shot
and the cause of the next. Jean Douchet
Bresson's cinema comes out of Lang's - it would be interesting to
look at how his films deal with the succession of shots by contrast.
Hitchcock was indeed interested in these matters, and as with Lang
and Bresson, it's impossible to talk about narrative in his films
without talking about the succession of shots: they are one.
Example: I describe at length in Hitchcock at Work how the concert
sequence in The Man Who Knew Too Much, one of the greatest pieces of
pure cinema in Hitchcock, evolved. One thing I discovered by combing
through the archives: until he saw Thomasini's first rough cut, AH
was planning to have the gun go off, then have Doris Day scream; in
the film he reversed this. One editing solution makes her scream a
mechanical reaction to the gunshot; the other makes it a reaction to
her growing anguish, which suddenly spills over in her scream,
causing the gunman to miss. Solution one: we're machines (a scream
with no moral significance). Solution two: we have free will (a
scream with moral significance). And this is a question that is dealt
with throughout the film, on the micro-level as well as the macro-
level, which we can follow in the notes of his story discussions with
Angus MacPhail, without ever being discussed as a theme. The song, of
course, as Godard noted in his review, makes its own comment, but not
in isolation: When she first sings it it's associated with Moroccan
music heard through the hotel room window, with connotations of
fatalism ("It is written"); when she sings it the second time, very
emotionally, she derails the infernal machine which has taken her son
and saves his life - aided by the freewill decision of the female
kidnapper to help him escape.
Mike: The loosening of cause-and-effect links in cinema is the main
characteristic by which Gilles Deleuze distinguishes between the Time-
Image and the Movement-Image. An example I recently wrote about,
where cause-effect is perception-reaction, as it often is in older
films (Action-Image films): Red Desert (a Time-Image film). Monica
Vitti's reactions to her environment are disproportionate to their
causes: She hears the word "mangare" and is seized with an obsessive
desire to eat, so she buys the sandwich of the worker who said the
word and wolfs it down. She hears a cry - a real cry, which the
others in the cabin missed - and raises the alarm about the danger
from the ship, which is indeed quarantined, but her reaction -
getting in the car and almost driving off the dock - is excessive and
inappropriate. The next day her son abreacts to the trauma of the
accident that is at the origin of the family's problems by becoming
hysterically paralyzed. Etc.
Again, this is one of my favorite films, and no doubt one of yours,
because of its extraordinary beauty. But that beauty is based on a
change in the main character's way of interacting with the world - ie
on a change in how the film presents cause-and-effect reactions - and
I would argue that this is again the result of a top-to-botom working
out of a plot, from the micro- to the macro-level - but a new KIND of
plot. I haven't seen What Time Is It There?, but IMO Lost in
Translation is doing the same thing.
Bresson is a filmmaker who certainly influenced this evolution of
cinema. Tourneur anticipates it, per Daney, by his loosening of the
causal connections in his films: the effect that comes too soon after
the cause, or too long after. (Cf. my post on Night Call).
Interestingly, the Tourneur observation appears in my favorite Daney
piece, The One Grows Old, which offers a unified field theory of
narrative and image in Hawks.
I just saw an amazing example of cause-and-effect at the level of the
image in Ray's Aparajito this weekend: Apu's mother is pulling a
bucket of water up from the well on a rope when she hears her son
arriving. CU of the rope snapping taut. Cut to her appearing in the
gate, waiting happily for him to appear. This is what semioticians
would call a film metonymy - effect (rope snapping taut) substituted
for cause (mother hears son and drops the bucket back in the well).
Amazingly, before this in the film there is a lecture in one of Apu's
classes on the meaning of synecdoche in literature, where the word
metonymy also appears on the blackboard. One of my five favorite
filmmakers.
Fred, if it's a real film, narrative and image, the micro- and macro-
levels, are one.
6308
From: jaketwilson
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:04am
Subject: Re: Narrative/avant-garde/theory (THE CRITIC)
There's a great deal to think about in recent posts, but just a word
or two on THE CRITIC, since I brought it up. I think it's kind of a
deep film, even if unintentionally: I took it as a satire not on
avant-garde cinema but on the human tendency to anthropomorphise,
which as JPC points out is all but inescapable.
Of course it's possible to anthropomorphise crudely, as Brooks'
spectator does ("This is a story about the love affair between two
blobs") but I think most of us do it with more restraint -- e.g.
an "abstract" film can be understood as depicting the clash between
various forces, their fusion, transformation, etc. Because all the
meanings we can attribute to movies are, by definition, human
meanings, THE CRITIC works for me as a comic model of interpretation
and its limits (obviously the other, philistine reading of the film
is possible too). I think that the act of making or viewing art has
to involve projecting the self onto the world, while in the same
moment making us aware of the limits of that act -- as metaphor
conveys the affinity between two objects and also their difference.
Maybe for the same reasons I don't condemn anthorpomorphism, I don't
quite grasp the distinction between films that manipulate us and
films that don't. Presumably the artist has some kind of vision they
want to make us share, and I have no problem with being "manipulated"
to this end, as long as the vision is interesting. There's a
difference between art and random street noises, however beautiful --
in the same way, harking back to an earlier discussion, that there's
a difference between the drama of a stage play and the drama of an
argument in the street.
JTW
6309
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:04am
Subject: Re: the Actor and the Aquarium (Bergals/Mourlet)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> . Biette, as I noted previously, thought that
> Mourlet's "Sur un art ignore" was inspired by Valery's "The Method
of
> Leonardo da Vinci."
>
"Une oeuvre d'art devrait toujours nous apprendre que nous
n'avions pas vu ce que nous voyons." (ainsi peut-on dire que l'oeuvre
d'art est toujours plus ou moins didactique).
Introduction a la methode de leonard de vinci (actual title).
I could quote almost any page...
JPC
> I hope that the work of Robert Kramer, which is being restored (I
> believe by the Cinematheque), will eventually be shown and
circulated
> here as well as in France. I recently watched a dupe-y tape of Ice
> that I got at Cinefile-another film I hadn't seen since the 70s-and
> it is politically and esthetically as strong as ever. And as
> relevant. Milestones is an amazing film which really deserves to be
> seen again.
>
> When we asked Robert to write about a neglected masterpiece for the
> book we did on the occasion of Locarno's 50th, he picked "Killer of
> Sheep."
Ice, Milestones, Killer of Sheep. How i wish I could see them again!
(but I saw them not so long ago after all -- maybe 6 years at most...)
One at MOMA, another in Montreal, or what it Toronto?
6310
From:
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
Michael Worrall wrote:
>And Peter, I am saying what action star- being the lead- doesn't have
>space assigned or centered around them? What makes it special?
>Because their women? That makes McG an auteur? Isn't he supposed
>to "give close-up" to the leads?
I wasn't trying to make a case for the film (or for McG being an auteur) in
my earlier replies to you; I was simply responding to Frederick's request for
some elaboration on my interpretation of the films as having a feminist bent.
I would actually say that the feminist angle is a relatively small part of why
I like the films. I think it's there (and would basically echo what Jake
just wrote), but, as we all hopefully know, having a feminist angle alone does
not maketh good cinema. At all.
What does maketh "Charlie's Angels" and "Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle"
good cinema? I liked the comparison Filipe makes in his upcoming article on
auteurism in the marketplace age (appearing in The Film Journal in February); he
contrasted another summer blockbuster, "Terminator 3," with "Full Throttle" in
terms of establishing plot, developing characters, and taking care to portray
action in distinct spaces. "T3," Filipe argues, is preoccupied with doing all
of these things, while "Full Throttle" doesn't spend too much time doing any
of them. This suggests to me first and foremost that McG isn't, as you say,
"the latest piece of programmable software for a studio." The equivalent
blockbusters I've seen are nothing like "Full Throttle." (And, incidentally, if
you ever read an interview with McG - a psychology major at college - he's
incredibly articulate and self-aware about what he's doing.) It also suggests a
formal approach which takes the usual strategy of centering space around the
leads to extreme new levels, at least for a Hollywood film; the changes of
scenery and costume are really very radical for their speed and absolute disregard
for storytelling plausibility or coherence.
There's also a tongue-in-cheek flavor to the films which Jake alludes to. As
I argued in my review, these films have incredibly little to do with the TV
series; I've seen one or two episodes, out of obligation, and couldn't detect
any significant similarities. Filipe argues that the films are "post-humanist"
- and they are in many ways - but there's also a real "termite" feel to the
films, as though it's Drew Barrymore and her friends (in this sense, she is the
auteur) having fun on a movie set with a big budget at their disposal. It's
a carefree attitude which reminded me of Hawks in spirit (though I wouldn't
think of invoking Hawks as a stylistic model, obviously.)
I hope that gives you some idea of why I find the films interesting and
invigorating. I'm not accusing you of this, but I think there's the tendency to
turn one's nose up at a film derived from the "Charlie's Angels" TV series and
which boasts a director called "McG." But I seriously believe there's
something to the films or I wouldn't risk being laughed at for defending them!
To Jake, I'm not the only critic to make some vague stabs at looking at "Kill
Bill" through a feminist lens (although I wouldn't say that that's quite what
I'm doing; I think the feminism is intrinsic to the film's attitudes). The
American critic Jim Ridley made some very persuasive comments about the film's
feminism in the recent Village Voice poll.
Peter
6311
From:
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:52pm
Subject: Re: OUR DAILY BREAD
Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
>You can download OUR DAILY BREAD at www.movieflix.com; free.
I shouldn't be snooty about this, as I've only seen "Our Daily Bread" on DVD,
but I'd hate to think what the film would look like on a computer monitor!
>The ditch-digging scenes are remarkable and the ending is much like
>the Soviet farm collectives, though no Soviet digs with quite the vigor
>of
>Vidor's human freight train. It is a remarkable scene of tremendous
>movement within a frame which is barely moving.
It's easily one of my top ten (?) or so favorite sequences in cinema. Vidor
was a great maker of montage. The conclusion of his best film, "An American
Romance," arguably surpasses that of "Our Daily Bread": it is a stunning
depiction of a production line making aircraft Vidor's montage builds to a
crescendo which is nothing short of breathtaking. His late experimental film, "Truth
and Illusion: An Introduction to Metaphysics," relates to the earlier ones in
that it is essentially one "unrelated" image after another; but of course they
are related by visual echoes from shot to shot and by the narration.
>Reviewing the ditch-digging scene perhaps will help me with Brakhage.
I think that every great film you see helps you better see every other great
film; to me, the really great ones are not so dissimilar.
Peter
6312
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:53am
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Michael Worrall wrote:
>
"T3," Filipe argues, is preoccupied with doing all
> of these things, while "Full Throttle" doesn't spend too much time
doing any
> of them. This suggests to me first and foremost that McG isn't, as
you say,
> "the latest piece of programmable software for a studio." The
equivalent
> blockbusters I've seen are nothing like "Full Throttle." (And,
incidentally, if
> you ever read an interview with McG - a psychology major at
college - he's
> incredibly articulate and self-aware about what he's doing.) It
also suggests a
> formal approach which takes the usual strategy of centering space
around the
> leads to extreme new levels, at least for a Hollywood film; the
changes of
> scenery and costume are really very radical for their speed and
absolute disregard
> for storytelling plausibility or coherence.
Your statement "at least in a Hollywood film" pretty much sums up my
arguement over the film. All present and done before in Hong Kong
cinema, but the Hollywood films get all the laurels.
6313
From:
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
Michael Worrall wrote:
>Your statement "at least in a Hollywood film" pretty much sums up my
>arguement over the film. All present and done before in Hong Kong
>cinema, but the Hollywood films get all the laurels.
I wouldn't exactly say that "Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle" has gotten many
laurels! (Somehow an affirmative vote from Peter Tonguette isn't quite like
winning the Oscar...) But, of course, I plead ignorance insofar as I
personally have not yet seen a HK film with quite the same dynamic at work as there is
in "CA:FT." (As to an explanation of what that dynamic is, I won't repeat my
previous post here again.) I'm completely open to the possibility that there
is, though; I'm always looking for new things to see.
Peter
6314
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:01am
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism (repost)
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> >
> "T3," Filipe argues, is preoccupied with doing all
> > of these things, while "Full Throttle" doesn't spend too much
time
> doing any
> > of them. This suggests to me first and foremost that McG isn't,
as
> you say,
> > "the latest piece of programmable software for a studio." The
> equivalent
> > blockbusters I've seen are nothing like "Full Throttle." (And,
> incidentally, if
> > you ever read an interview with McG - a psychology major at
> college - he's
> > incredibly articulate and self-aware about what he's doing.) It
> also suggests a
> > formal approach which takes the usual strategy of centering space
> around the
> > leads to extreme new levels, at least for a Hollywood film; the
> changes of
> > scenery and costume are really very radical for their speed and
> absolute disregard for storytelling plausibility or coherence.
>
>
Your statement "at least in a Hollywood film" pretty much sums up my
arguement over the film. All present and done before in Hong Kong
cinema, but the Hollywood films get all the laurels with terms
like "radical" and "new extremes", as if these styles only become
valid or noteworthy when they appear in Hollywood movies. To me,
it's second hand.
6315
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:34am
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
Filipe argues that the films are "post-humanist"
> - and they are in many ways - but there's also a real "termite"
feel to the films, as though it's Drew Barrymore and her friends (in
this sense, she is the auteur) having fun on a movie set with a big
budget at their disposal.
"Termite" in the Farber since? How is a 80 million or so odd film
with a 30 million dollar ad campaign "termite"?
6316
From:
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism (repost)
Michael Worrall continued:
>[...] the Hollywood films get all the laurels with terms
>like "radical" and "new extremes", as if these styles only become
>valid or noteworthy when they appear in Hollywood movies. To me,
>it's second hand.
I can't think of a self-respecting critic who would argue that a style only
becomes valid and noteworthy once it appears in a Hollywood movie and I
certainly never meant to imply such a thing! The gist of my responses has been that
I can recognize the influence of HK action cinema on McG's films, though I
haven't seen one which I would say directly anticipates their particular dynamic
of self-referenciality, spatial disorientation, lack of consideration for plot
and character, celebration of pop culture iconography (Filipe's observation),
and so on; the key there is "I haven't seen one." I'll take your word that
there is, but I don't think it'll reduce my opinion of McG's films. There are
many great films (though I consider "CA:FT" only "very good," not "great")
which might be thought of as "second hand" if one means they are influenced by or
directly engage with other films.
Michael also asked:
>"Termite" in the Farber since? How is a 80 million or so odd film
>with a 30 million dollar ad campaign "termite"?
Yes, "termite" in the Farber sense. I don't recall budgetary considerations
entering into Farber's definition of termite art; his examples of the movies
which personified it included such artifacts of Hollywood as "The Big Sleep"
and the movies of Laurel and Hardy! I'd say that I got a definite vibe of
"having no ambitions towards gilt culture but are involved in a kind of
squandering-beaverish endeavor that isn't anywhere or for anything" from "Charlie's
Angels: Full Throttle." Maybe you have a different sense of it; clearly many do.
But I think it's much more about the director and his stars having a good time
doing their own thing than it is them thinking about making a lot of money or
appealing to the Oscar voters. It's certainly not a vibe I get from many $80
million films.
Peter
6317
From: jaketwilson
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 5:36am
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
> To Jake, I'm not the only critic to make some vague stabs at
looking at "Kill Bill" through a feminist lens (although I wouldn't
say that that's quite what I'm doing; I think the feminism is
intrinsic to the film's attitudes). The American critic Jim Ridley
made some very persuasive comments about the film's
> feminism in the recent Village Voice poll.
I know that QT himself has said the film is about "girl power". I
agree with Fred V. though that given the present popularity of Buffy,
Lara Croft and innumerable other babes-who-kick-ass, it's necessary
to retain some scepticism about how far this stereotype retains any
power to unsettle, rather than feeding into what Laura Mulvey
described as male fantasies about "phallic women".
My hunch is we have to take this stuff case by case: our societies
are as "sexist" as ever in many respects, but changes in the status
of women over the last few decades have been genuinely vast, and
movies have come to reflect all this in ways that can't be
straightforwardly tagged as "feminist" or "anti-feminist". Obviously
in CHARLIE'S ANGELS Drew and the others are commodified fetish
objects to the max, but that's life, and Hollywood -- in letting the
characters/actors take control of their own images, the film implies
(accurately in my view) that glamour and fantasy aren't so easily
separable from power and freedom.
I still think KILL BILL happens on a very different planet: an semi-
surrealist fantasy landscape inside its maker's head, populated, as I
think someone said earlier, by warring goddesses viewed with an
abject blend of adoration and terror. (Symbolically, isn't QT really
the kid who gets spanked at the House of Blue Leaves?) Not much to do
with real women at all, though JACKIE BROWN is another story.
JTW
6318
From: J. Mabe
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:19am
Subject: Music: Bad Santa/Eyes Wide Shut
There’s a piece of music that I’ve been hearing often
since I first noticed it at the beginning of Eyes Wide
Shut, and tonight I just heard it at the end of Bad
Santa. Just by chance, does anyone know what this
music is? A cross check of the soundtrack listings on
imdb was fruitless.
Thanks,
Josh Mabe
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6319
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:08am
Subject: Re: Music: Bad Santa/Eyes Wide Shut
> There’s a piece of music that I’ve been hearing often
> since I first noticed it at the beginning of Eyes Wide
> Shut, and tonight I just heard it at the end of Bad
> Santa. Just by chance, does anyone know what this
> music is? A cross check of the soundtrack listings on
> imdb was fruitless.
It's "Waltz II" from the 'Jazz Suite' by Dmitri Shostakovich.
craig.
6320
From: Maxime
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:17am
Subject: Milestones
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I hope that the work of Robert Kramer, which is being restored (I
> believe by the Cinematheque), will eventually be shown and
circulated
> here as well as in France.
I discovered Milestones in Locarno 2002, among 40 Dwan's in an
amazing week. Proabably not the best timing...
The movie was shown next year in a Kramer Paris festival. I don't
remember a restored version, at least a new print.
6321
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:47am
Subject: Re: OUR DAILY BREAD
Perhaps the merit of a great film: less than ideal viewing circumstances
do not hinder appreciation.
Still, I would rather see what I saw today, than not see OUR DAILY BREAD
at all. I will even go one further; I am sure we have all watched a film
with the sound mute (some probably listen without an image).
Sometimes I watch a dvd film at increased speed, just watching the
flow of images across the screen. The digital media makes that possible
in a way that the video cassettes did not. I started this sped up viewing
to study the development of the story but what was interesting is the life
it brought to the images.
GOODBYE SOUTH GOODBYE has a fair number of travelling scenes that
became more apparent to me in the sped up reviewing of the scenes.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
>
> >You can download OUR DAILY BREAD at www.movieflix.com; free.
>
> I shouldn't be snooty about this, as I've only seen "Our Daily Bread" on DVD,
> but I'd hate to think what the film would look like on a computer monitor!
>
> >The ditch-digging scenes are remarkable and the ending is much like
> >the Soviet farm collectives, though no Soviet digs with quite the vigor
> >of
> >Vidor's human freight train. It is a remarkable scene of tremendous
> >movement within a frame which is barely moving.
>
> It's easily one of my top ten (?) or so favorite sequences in cinema. Vidor
> was a great maker of montage. The conclusion of his best film, "An American
> Romance," arguably surpasses that of "Our Daily Bread": it is a stunning
> depiction of a production line making aircraft Vidor's montage builds to a
> crescendo which is nothing short of breathtaking. His late experimental film,
"Truth
> and Illusion: An Introduction to Metaphysics," relates to the earlier ones in
> that it is essentially one "unrelated" image after another; but of course they
> are related by visual echoes from shot to shot and by the narration.
>
> >Reviewing the ditch-digging scene perhaps will help me with Brakhage.
>
> I think that every great film you see helps you better see every other great
> film; to me, the really great ones are not so dissimilar.
>
> Peter
6322
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:14am
Subject: Re: Milestones
> I discovered Milestones in Locarno 2002, among 40 Dwan's in an
> amazing week.
Say that again? Wow, 40 Dwans in a week has got to be a record....
According to Erika Kramer there are 35 prints deposited at the Pacific Film
Archive and at the Cinematheque. MoMA has a very good 16 which they
circulate freely. And last I talked to John Douglas (the film's co-director) he
mentioned the Cinematheque was still working on the restoration. Anyway,
that was over a year ago, and the film is being shown in Berlin this year as
part of their American '67-76 series. Hopefully they'll be showing the
restoration.
Gabe
6323
From:
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:06am
Subject: Re: the Actor and the Aquarium (Bergals/Mourlet)
Other aquaria:
Experiment Perilous (Jacques Tourneur)
Two films by Imamura Shohei:
The Pornographers (relax, it is NOT a porn movie!)
The Eel
The tv series about the child prodigy who studies fish:
Roomies
and the film of the Ursula K. LeGuin science fiction novel:
The Lathe of Heaven (David Loxton, Fred Barzyk, 1980)
My favorite Jacques Cousteau show:
"The Incredible March of the Spiny Lobsters"
and the ones about Octopi and squids!
Mike Grost
PS As a kid, I always watched Lloyd Bridges in "Sea Hunt".
6324
From:
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 11:57am
Subject:
6325
From: Maxime
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 0:53pm
Subject: Re: Milestones
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> Say that again? Wow, 40 Dwans in a week has got to be a record....
It was a 10 days session actually. Four a day...
Great silent discoveries btw: loved '25 STAGE STRUCK, the full print
of '17 A MODERN MUSKETEER is amazing. Not to mention the 50's
beauties...
Maxime
6326
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Milestones
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
> wrote:
> > Say that again? Wow, 40 Dwans in a week has got to be a record....
>
> It was a 10 days session actually. Four a day...
> Great silent discoveries btw: loved '25 STAGE STRUCK, the full
print
> of '17 A MODERN MUSKETEER is amazing. Not to mention the 50's
> beauties...
> Maxime
What do you think of PEARL OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC? I've just obtained a
DVD but haven't watched it yet.
PWC
6327
From:
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:25pm
Subject: Re: Music: Bad Santa/Eyes Wide Shut
>
> > There's a piece of music that I've been hearing often
> > since I first noticed it at the beginning of Eyes Wide
> > Shut, and tonight I just heard it at the end of Bad
> > Santa. Just by chance, does anyone know what this
> > music is? A cross check of the soundtrack listings on
> > imdb was fruitless.
>
> It's "Waltz II" from the 'Jazz Suite' by Dmitri Shostakovich.
>
You can also hear it in the (excellent) documentary FIGHTER, which
came out several years ago.
-Bilge
6328
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 3:52pm
Subject: TAPE
Based on a three-character, one-act play, Tape is set entirely in Room
19 of a seedy motel in Lansing, Michigan rented by Vince, a ill-tempered,
outgoing party animal/drug dealer who's visited by his old high school
friend Jon, a documentary filmmaker, ... Vince's old girlfriend Amy, who
later shows up and opens up a new wave of talk and arguments about
whose story is fact or fabricated.
Summary written by Matthew Patay
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> "La Concentration" takes place entirely within a room
> built especially for the film.
6329
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:04pm
Subject: unforgettable gold fish hysteria!
A FISH CALLED WANDA
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote: Oh and let's not forget "The Courtship of Eddie's Father" and its
> unforgettable gold fish hysteria! (although, david, this has nothing
> to do with Bergala...)
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> > Both include Aquarium scenes.
> > --- samfilms2003 wrote:
> > > Husband in the fish's tank, even better ;-)
> > >
6330
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 4:30pm
Subject: Dwan (was Re: Milestone)
>
> What do you think of PEARL OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC? I've just obtained
a
> DVD but haven't watched it yet.
>
> PWC
Dwan hated it. He told Bogdanovitch: "Oh, that was a terrible
picture. It should never have been done... everything went wrong on
that, it was a mess." Actually it's much better than his Melville
atrocity (Enchanted Island), the nadir of the Bogeaus series, with
Silver Lode, Cattle Queen of M, Tennessee's Partner and Slightly
Scarlet the zenith -- all photographed by the great John Alton, let's
not forget.
I have never seen "Most Dangerous Man Alive" which Hirshhorn
in "Columbia Story" calls "a virtually unrealeasable disaster" (it
was made on the cheap in 1958, then Bogeaus sold it to Columbia which
released it in 1961) which had fervent admirers among French Dwan
fans in te fifties and sixties (Tavernier calls it "magnificent" in
our book). Decades ago I saw (at MOMA) Brewster's Millions which I
thought was a tremendous comedy but unfortunately it has become
unavailable (unlike the other Small farce remakes) probably because
of the atrocious 1985 remake. Was it part of that retro?
JPC
6331
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 5:01pm
Subject: Re: TAPE
Well, ROPE, UNA VOCE UMANA, WAVELENGTH all take place in one room.
SLEUTH almost does. INDIA SONG almost does too. Because cinema can
take us anywhere there is this paradoxical attraction to saying no
and limiting the film text to a confined space.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> Based on a three-character, one-act play, Tape is set entirely in
Room
> 19 of a seedy motel in Lansing, Michigan rented by Vince, a ill-
tempered,
> outgoing party animal/drug dealer who's visited by his old high
school
> friend Jon, a documentary filmmaker, ... Vince's old girlfriend
Amy, who
> later shows up and opens up a new wave of talk and arguments about
> whose story is fact or fabricated.
> Summary written by Matthew Patay
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> > "La Concentration" takes place entirely within a room
> > built especially for the film.
6332
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Dwan (was Re: Milestone)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> I have never seen "Most Dangerous Man Alive"
> which Hirshhorn
> in "Columbia Story" calls "a virtually unrealeasable
> disaster" (it
> was made on the cheap in 1958, then Bogeaus sold it
> to Columbia which
> released it in 1961) which had fervent admirers
> among French Dwan
> fans in te fifties and sixties (Tavernier calls it
> "magnificent" in
> our book).
The film-within-the-film in "The State of Things"
(Wenders' best work, IMO) is supposed to be a remake
of "The Most Danderous Man Alive."
In the climactic scene where Patrick Bachau meets
Allen Garfield in the latter's trailer, which is
driving around L.A., Garfield says to him "Well here
we are -- the most dangerous men alive!"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6333
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:28pm
Subject: Re: Charlie's Angels, Kill Bill, Feminism
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
wrote:
"Yes, and that's a genre I would like to seem more films. I know
that both Zang Che and Chor Yuen said they watched these films while
working at Shaw Brothers- I hear NYC is going to have a Shaw Brothers
retro, I hope it comes here to SF in complete form- so I would like
to know which ones you would recommend."
LADY SNOWBLOOD and LADY SNOWBLOOD II are easily available in almost
any video store, but you can be certain of finding them at one of the
video stores in Japan Town, SF. WATCH OUT CRIMSON BAT! (1969) is on
dvd but is harder to come by as a rental. There are three other
movies in the series also on dvd. QUICK-DRAW OKATSU (1969) with
Miyazuno Junko was very good and so was VENDETTA OF A SAMURAI GIRL
(1969) also with Miyazuno. These are all 'scope movies and they
confirm Burch's observation in "To the Distant Observer" that even
the most ordinary Japanese B movie excelled at 'scope compositions.
The earliest swordswoman movie I've seen is WOMEN NINJAS (1965) and
it was based on a manga (as was LADY SNOWBLOOD.)
Here in Los Angeles we had at one time three Japanese
movie theatres, the Sakurada, the Toho LaBrea and the Linda Lea.
Later the Little Tokyo I & II opened, but alas all have closed so
there's no permanent venue for seeing Japanese movies. The Japan
Society of New York City had a regular film series on Friday and
Saturday almost all year long. However, there is still Japanese
television programing in the LA area and at one time they broadcast
some of the swordswomen movies mentioned above as well as tv shows
spun off from them.
Richard
6334
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 6:45pm
Subject: Re: Dwan
M. C., I think Pearl of the South Pacific is horrible, and Enchanted
Island is fabulous; ditto Most Dangerous Man Alive, which Biette saw
as Dwan's "answer" to White Heat.
In general I am not as wild as nost about the Alton-Poglase aspect of
the Bogeaus films. Sure they all look beautiful, but that's not
enough. Of that period I like Silver Lode (the first BB film), Cattle
Queen of Montana and River's Edge the best; I put Slightly Scarlet,
Passion and Tennessee's Partner in the second tier; I think Escape to
Burma and Pearl of the South Pacific are low camp.
The last two films he made, Enchanted Island and Most Dangerous Man,
were done on practical locations. (In Dangerous Man you can hear the
cars passing outside the hotel they used for the gangster's isolated
villa.) It was a return to the way he worked in the two-reeler days,
and it inspired him - there's one shot in Enchanted Island (the
wedding) that's worth all the Alton-Poglase flash to me. And Restless
Breed, made just before them (all on sets) is an astonishing film.
My justifications for these aberrant opinions can be accessed at
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/03/28/cliff_and_flume.html
I am seething with jealousy that the folks at Locarno got to see A
Modern Musketeer, a film I thought was lost--I was invited but was
stuck at work. In revenge, I think The Half-Breed, which Joseph K.
and I saw at Cinecom, is brilliant.
6335
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 7:04pm
Subject: ROPE
ROPE takes place in a multi-room apartment; there were removable,
rollaway walls abutting the 'doorframes' between the rooms. These
walls slide in and out of view for the needed continuity. ROPE also
offers outside views, but TAPE is in a claustrophobic
hotel room. Both take us deep into the minds of the characters.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> Well, ROPE, UNA VOCE UMANA, WAVELENGTH all take place in one room.
> SLEUTH almost does. INDIA SONG almost does too. Because cinema can
> take us anywhere there is this paradoxical attraction to saying no
> and limiting the film text to a confined space.
>
6336
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 8:11pm
Subject: Barma
I was wondering if anyone here would be able to share his or her
opinions about Claude Barma, whose 3 hour-plus 'Belphégor' is screening
in New York at the end of March, as the final film in the Alliance
française's Pathé series:
March 30 - Belphégor
Claude Barma, 1969. Juliette Gréco, François Chaumette, André Dumas,
Paul Crauchet. Arthur Bernède, renowned French playwright, journalist,
screenwriter, and prolific novelist wrote this suspenseful drama of
strange hauntings and conniving intrigues swirling about the statue of
the ancient god Belphégor housed at the Louvre. B&W. 3h 12 min.
Screened in two parts; 1h 36min each.
Part I: 12:30 & 6:30pm • Part II: 3:30 & 9pm
http://www.fiaf.org/french%20film/empire.htm
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6337
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 9:01pm
Subject: Serge Daney, l'Homme Cinema Harvard Symposium 29JAN2004
| | http://www.film-philosophy.com | | | |
SPECIAL EVENT -- Serge Daney, l'Homme Cinema.
Harvard University (January 2004, Symposium on Thursday, January 29)
Heir apparent to the legendary French critic and
theorist Andre Bazin, Serge Daney (1944 -- 1992)
carried the torch of French film criticism to a
new generation of cinephiles with his insightful
writing for Cahiers du cinema (for which he
served as editor-in-chief from 1975 to 1981,
ushering in a significant era of post-auteurist
criticism), for the newspaper Liberation, and at
the influential journal he founded, Trafic.
Despite his canonical status in European film
circles, his reputation abroad has been largely
constrained -- in no small part because his work
has yet to be translated into English. Never a
victim of fashion, Daney was a champion of both
classical Hollywood genre films and promising new
directors from France and abroad. Today, his
reputation goes beyond film criticism: he is well
known as a "passeur", writing on television,
image and communication. As a kind of new Gilles
Deleuze, Serge Daney is today one of the most
famous contemporary French intellectuals.
This program offers a sampling of some of the
critic's most beloved films as well as a rare
documentary in which Daney provides testimony to
his passion for film and culture at large. Each
evening's program will be introduced by a local
film historian, scholar, or critic.
It will be co-presented with French Cultural
Services, the Minda de Gunzburg Center for
European Studies at Harvard University, Vive les
Arts-Boston, and Cahiers du cinema, which will
also publish the proceedings of the symposium in
an upcoming issue. Special thanks to Centre
National du Cinema, the Department of Film
Studies at Yale University, the Goethe Institut
and Unifrance Film.
SYMPOSIUM -- Beyond Film Criticism:
A Symposium in Homage to Serge Daney
Harvard University (Thursday, January 29, 10am -- 4pm)
=46or this day-long symposium, a diverse group of
international scholars and critics will gather to
examine the influence French critic Serge Daney
brought to bear on contemporary film culture, the
contested position of the cinephiliac, and the
divide between academic and journalistic
criticism. Panellists will include French
director Arnaud Desplechin, Professor Dudley
Andrew of Yale University, critic and editor
Jean-Michel Frodon (director, Cahiers du cinema),
Emmanuel Burdeau (editor, Les Cahiers du cinema),
Kent Jones (Film Comment), Klaus Eder (FIPRESCI),
Tom Conley (Harvard University), Bill Krohn
(UCLA). In addition, Elvis Mitchell from the New
York Times, Tom Sellars from the Village Voice,
Jim Hoberman from the Village Voice among others
may confirm their participation.
Minda de Gunzburg Center for European Studies Harvard University
27 Kirkland St. at Cabot Way, Cambridge
for more information: 617 292-0548 / http://www.harvardfilmarchive.org
=46ILM SERIES -- The Eye of Serge Daney
Harvard Film Archive (January 7-29)
In homage to Serge Daney, the Harvard Film
Archive is screening several films Daney wrote
on, whether he loved or hated them. Each film
will be introduced by a short pre-screening
presentation, made by academics, artists, critics
or journalists. A good opportunity to see under a
different point of view famous films such as
"Children of Paradise" , "Purple Noon", "Night
and Fog", Hitchcock's "Psycho" and "North by
Northwest", "Annie Hall". The whole schedule and
complete list are already available by clicking
on the link below:
http://www.harvardfilmarchive.org/calendars/03_winter/daney.html#serge
Harvard Film Archive
24 Quincy Street, Cambridge
for more information: 617 495-4700 / http://www.harvardfilmarchive.org
6338
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:01pm
Subject: Dwan (was Re: Milestone)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> >
> > I have never seen "Most Dangerous Man Alive"
> > which Hirshhorn
> > in "Columbia Story" calls "a virtually unrealeasable
> > disaster" (it
> > was made on the cheap in 1958, then Bogeaus sold it
> > to Columbia which
> > released it in 1961) which had fervent admirers
> > among French Dwan
> > fans in te fifties and sixties (Tavernier calls it
> > "magnificent" in
> > our book).
>
> The film-within-the-film in "The State of Things"
> (Wenders' best work, IMO) is supposed to be a remake
> of "The Most Danderous Man Alive."
>
> In the climactic scene where Patrick Bachau meets
> Allen Garfield in the latter's trailer, which is
> driving around L.A., Garfield says to him "Well here
> we are -- the most dangerous men alive!"
>
> ____
You call it "The Most Dangerous..." and I and others call
it "Most Dangerous..." Which is it? Only a print can tell.
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6339
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:23pm
Subject: Re: ROPE
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> ROPE takes place in a multi-room apartment; there were removable,
> rollaway walls abutting the 'doorframes' between the rooms. These
> walls slide in and out of view for the needed continuity. ROPE
also
> offers outside views, but TAPE is in a claustrophobic
> hotel room. Both take us deep into the minds of the characters.
>
I knew someone was going to correct me and I should have
said "almost". However it is misleading to describe the set of ROPE
as a "multi-room apartment' whatever that means. There's a large
living room where 99 per cent at least of all the action takes place.
We don't see the other rooms (bedrooms? study? whatever) at all, as
you seem to imply. A few short moments take place in the foyer
(which leads directly -- but at an angle -- into the living room),
and the camera takes us a couple of times to the entrance to the
kitchen -- there is that nice moment when the swinging door to the
kitchen swings open and shut and we see John Dall dropping the piece
of rope into a drawer. Of course the view of the New York skyline
makes ROPE less claustrophobic than a film shot in a small hotel room
(with no window?). Maybe Hitchcock should have shot the entire film
with the curtains shut (they are shut when the film starts, and then
drawn open). It would have saved a lot of trouble technically.
JPC
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> > wrote:
> > Well, ROPE, UNA VOCE UMANA, WAVELENGTH all take place in one
room.
> > SLEUTH almost does. INDIA SONG almost does too. Because cinema
can
> > take us anywhere there is this paradoxical attraction to saying
no
> > and limiting the film text to a confined space.
> >
6340
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 11:09pm
Subject: Re: ROPE
I was just distinguishing the ROPE apartment from the single room occupancy
unit that would be even more clautrophobic and rather crowded with all
those guests. The single room we see for the most part is like a parlor,
sitting room, living room but with the a single purpose. The single room
units serve as living, dining, and sleeping room in one.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
> wrote:
> > ROPE takes place in a multi-room apartment; there were removable,
> > rollaway walls abutting the 'doorframes' between the rooms. These
> > walls slide in and out of view for the needed continuity. ROPE
> also
> > offers outside views, but TAPE is in a claustrophobic
> > hotel room. Both take us deep into the minds of the characters.
> >
>
>
> I knew someone was going to correct me and I should have
> said "almost". However it is misleading to describe the set of ROPE
> as a "multi-room apartment' whatever that means. There's a large
> living room where 99 per cent at least of all the action takes place.
> We don't see the other rooms (bedrooms? study? whatever) at all, as
> you seem to imply. A few short moments take place in the foyer
> (which leads directly -- but at an angle -- into the living room),
> and the camera takes us a couple of times to the entrance to the
> kitchen -- there is that nice moment when the swinging door to the
> kitchen swings open and shut and we see John Dall dropping the piece
> of rope into a drawer. Of course the view of the New York skyline
> makes ROPE less claustrophobic than a film shot in a small hotel room
> (with no window?). Maybe Hitchcock should have shot the entire film
> with the curtains shut (they are shut when the film starts, and then
> drawn open). It would have saved a lot of trouble technically.
> JPC
6341
From: Maxime
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 11:28pm
Subject: Dwan
SILENT - As far as I know, all (only 15) surviving silent long
features made by Dwan were shown at Locarno. The full print of A
MODERN MUSKETEER was rediscovered I don't know when in Denmark. The
last two reels in Chelly Canyon are simply stunning. HE COMES UP
SMILING was also rediscovered by Lobster quite recently. Only 2
reels, but, boys! what minutes... If only for this long scene where
Fairbanks is chasing a canary (yes, a canary) all through the city,
this movie is a MUST SEE for all Fairbanks fans.
Grapevines video has (had?) copies of THE HALF BREED, MANHANDLED and
MANHATTHAN MADNESS.
30'S - Tell me nut, but I love a couple of 30's Fox. I really like
two small programmers Dwan made in '36 with Brian Donlevy: HUMAN
CARGO and HIGH TENSION. Amazing pace, especially in the dialogue,
anticipating Hawks' His Girl Friday. Outstanding fluidity and
economy in the narration.
EDWARD SMALL - All these little comedies are good to excellent.
BREWSTER'S MILLIONS was at Locarno indeed. The video sometimes shows
up on eBay.
PEARL OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC
Brilliant work by Alton (and the DVD release reproduces it
beautifully), but, I agree with Bill, it isn't enough. Not a bit
convincing. I can't say I'm more touched by ENCHANTED ISLAND. I'll
pay a visit to this wedding scene. I guess Dwan get lost in these
damned islands.
My 50's best: 1. Most Dangerous Man Alive/Slightly Scarlet/The
River's Edge 2. Tennessee's Partner/Silver Lode/Cattle Queen of
Montana 3. Burma/The Restless Breed
MOST DANGEROUS MAN ALIVE
(Note "The" MDMA, I've got a video copy, you may check also on the
poster: http://mapage.noos.fr/maximer/mostdangerousmanhs.jpg) May I
say this movie changed my life? It may sound a little exaggerated, I
know... This is the very first Dwan movie I watched. I guess I saw
it at the right time.
6342
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 0:33am
Subject: Re: Dwan
Maxime, where do I click to get those Grapevine Dwans? More
important, where the hell do I see the Fox titles you mentioned? I
love the Wurtzel period. Black Sheep is a major Dwan. The Eddie Small
and Herbert Yates periods are also underrated in contrast to the
amazing surfaces of the Bogeaus/Polglase/Alton films, which revived
interest in Dwan when they were released in France in the fifties.
But Dwan didn't even LIKE color - he told Bogdanovich that he turned
the color off when he watched movies on tv. IMO the best Bogeaus
films - Silver Lode, The River's Edge and Cattle Queen of Montana -
do well to eschew the garish palette of Slightly Scarlet and Pearl
and Burma, however delightful these may be for Technicolor fans. So
does Tennessee's Partner, but I've never really understood the appeal
of that one to so many people. It's just a nice story well-told -
kind of boring, actually.
By the same token, I think people overrate Ulmer's PRC period because
they love B movies, whereas his fifties work is much richer - 8 or 9
masterpieces as opposed to 5. These are good examples of what Fred
calls yielding to "likes" instead of making esthetic judgements, even
though Techicolor and B's are noble "likes" which only connoisseurs
are likely to share in the first place. Whereas the popularity of
Slightly Scarlet rests also on love of James M. Cain, Rhonda Fleming
and Arlene Dahl, which aren't really specific to cinema. One thing
always puzzled me: Who decided to give Fleming all the sexy outfits?
The way her wardrobe cuts against her official "good girl" role is
one of the things I do kind of like about the film. I'd better shut
up before I talk myself out of this one...
6343
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:09am
Subject: Re: Dwan
there are some Dwan films at MOVIEFLIX.com
6344
From: Maxime
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: Dwan
Bill, I'm sorry but, as I suspected, Grapevine has just closed and
is no longer taking orders... (http://www.grapevinevideo.com/)
As for the 2 Fox titles I mentionned, the French Cinematheque has
prints, and I'm not sure others are circulating (the movies were not
at Locarno).
> Black Sheep is a major Dwan.
I never watched the video copy of Black Sheep I've got. Someday...
> But Dwan didn't even LIKE color
Dwan always felt nostalgic for the silent era... all the same, the
noir colors of Slightly Scarlet are amazing, no?
> and Herbert Yates periods are also underrated
My Favourite Republic is Surrender.
> so does Tennessee's Partner, but I've never really understood the
> appeal of that one to so many people.
Roger Tailleur nicely expressed in Positif (1957) what may explain
this strong appeal, mentionning the "emotional realism" in the
handling of a subject "surprisingly fine and noble"
6345
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:36am
Subject: Re: Zinnemann
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> This is a very long shot, I realize, but does anyone
> have access to the March 1983 issue of Positif? I´m
> working on a piece about Fred Zinnemann, and that issue
> has Yann Tobin´s "Zinnemann, premiere epoque" and a piece
> on Five Days One Summer by Frederic Vitoux. (I´m working
> on a Spanish language keyboard, so apologies for the missing
> accent marks).
>
> --Robert Keser
I scanned the articles and put them online:
http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm1.html
http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm2.html
Since you mentioned you were interested in "The Search,"
here are the program notes Richard Griffith wrote for the
1958 MoMA Zinnemann retrospective.
THE SEARCH (1948).
Produced by Lazar Wechsler for Loew's International, Inc.
Directed by Fred Zinnemann. Screenplay by Richard Schweizer,
suggested by Therese Bonney's Europe's Children. Technical
adviser, Miss Bonney. Photographed by Emil Berna. Edited by
Herman Haller. Music by Robert Blum Cast: Ivan Jandl, Leopold
Barkowski, Jarmila Novotna, Montgomery Clift, Aline
MacMahon, Wendell Corey, Mary Patton, William Rogers.
Winner Screen Directors Guild Award.
The Search was an experiment. Zinnemann has elsewhere described
its genesis in detail. Briefly, Lazar Wechsler, Swiss producer of
The Last Chance, suggested that a film might be based on Therese
Bonney's book of photographs to Arthur Loew who, as head of
Loew's International, was then contemplating the desirability for
market reasons of M-G-M's participating in a production deal
with European producers. The studio agreed to put up half of the
very modest total budget of $250,000, and to lend Fred Zinnemann
to the project as director.
The Search was filmed in the Zurich studios and at UNNRA camps
in Nuremberg, Munich, Frankfort, and Wurzburg. The script was
partly based on case histories gathered at these camps, but in
part it wrote itself as the film progressed. The great scene
when the homeless children draw back in horror from the Red
Cross ambulances which are to transport them came out of an
actual incident in the film-making. The children in
the film had been prepared for this scene in a general way, but
when they actually saw the approaching trucks, says Zinnemann,
"They drew into themselves and we could see the strain on their
faces. When ordered into the ambulances, some broke and ran away
and others started yelling and banging on the sides
in desperation. What we hadn't realized that the ambulances
represented terror to them. Many had seen their loved ones taken
away like that and they also knew the Nazis had disguised mobile
gas chambers as Red Cross vehicles.
Now that the impact of The Search is history, it is interesting
to recall that its initial press was by no means unanimously
favorable. The New Republic said of it that it "manages
only to be sentimental about a subject that demands anger and
shame,"'' and the late James Agee thought that the "subject,
enormous almost beyond tragic reach, is frequently reduced to
the scale of gracious sentimentality. The moral complexities of
the subject are dealt with so shyly that one can scarcely
be sure they are consciously dealt with at
5 Pryor, Thomas M., "History of `The Search,' "
The New York Times, March 14. 1948.
6. Movies: "The Optimists," The New Republic, V.
118, no. 15, April 12, 1948.
all."7 Whatever the merits of this criticism, Zinnemann and his
associates knew precisely what they intended to do." All of us
realized, of course, that it would be necessary for us to
soften the truth to a certain extent, because to show things as they
really were would have meant-at least in our sincere opinion-
that the American audience would have lost any desire to see
it, used as they have been through the years to seeing a
sentimentalized world . . . We were interested in a general
acceptance of the film both as a method of educating the large
American public to a vital modern problem and also as a money-maker.
In this sense The Search was a test case, and from recent reports,
it appears that the test has been passed successfully . . . It is
even more heartening to remember that this type of motion picture
need not bring in grosses of four or five million dollars in order
to be profitable. There seems to be a close connection between
authenticity and economy . "8 At the end of the article quoted
above, Zinnemann wrote, "my future plans are predicated on the
idea that this approach [that of The Search] may he used successfully
everywhere." Meanwhile M-G-M, which had dropped his contract in
an economy drive, now sought to re-engage him on the strength
of his record with The Search. Reluctantly he accepted the
direction of Act of Violence (1948) and later found his fears
confirmed by the reaction of his favorite critical nemesis,
Cecelia Ager: "The Search was real. Act of Violence is only
realistic."9
7. "The Search," Time, March 29, 1948.
8. R Zinnemann, Fred, "Different Perspective," op. cit.
9 Ager, Cecelia, "Act of Violence," PM, December
21, 1948.
The distinction was one which began to plague him. On the basis
of his new reputation he was offered many "realistic"
assignments, but he feared he was only wanted to appliqué a little
surface realism to subjects inherently unrealistic. At this moment
of doubt, his agent Abe Lastvogel quietly said, "Don't do
another script you don't like. Wait for one that excites you.
I'll lend you the money." For months Zinnemann's sole acti-
vity was the turning down of offers, which did not become
more frequent toward the end. Then the newly-successful Stanley
Kramer came to him with the story of his third independent
production, The Men.
6346
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 2:21am
Subject: Richard Griffith on Zinnemann
>
> Since you mentioned you were interested in "The Search,"
> here are the program notes Richard Griffith wrote for the
> 1958 MoMA Zinnemann retrospective.
>
More from Richard Griffith:
Though he made two "B"s thereafter, The Seventh Cross made Zinnemann
in the eyes of Hollywood a "major" rather than a minor director,
but its most important result was that it led to the making of The
Search, q.v.
With The Search, Zinnemann was made. It then became his problem,
as it is the problem of everyone who reaches the top of the Hollywood
heap, to decide his goal and his strategy in reaching it, in the
teeth of the conditions of commercial film-making described earlier.
As Arthur Knight has pointed out ("Fred Zinnemann," Films in Review,
January, 1951) - you have to ask Zinnemann at least four times what
he wants to do in pictures before he will begin to tell you. Movie
directors can be type-cast as surely as actors, and discarded just
as swiftly when the style in which they have made their name loses
favor. Zinnemann's reluctance to be so typed was probably a factor
in his decision to direct a film so foreign to his previous experience
as Oklahoma! But it is surely apparent to even the most casual
student of the Zinnemann film what the man is reaching for. The
best of them are mature in theme and realistic in style. Many of
them use what Zinnemann has called "the raw material of contemporary
history." (Zinnemann, Fred. "Different Perspectives," Sight and
Sound, autumn, 1948). Since The Search, all of them except Oklahoma!
and perhaps The Member of the Wedding have centered around moral
conflicts, often explicitly expressed: "This is the story of a man
whose occupation is running away" (Teresa): " . .and I must face
a man who hates me, lie a coward/ a craven coward/ or lie a coward
my grave" (High Noon) : "A man who won't go his own way is nothing"
(From Here to Eternity).
In short, he has addressed himself to carrying on the tradition of
screen realism, which is also largely a moralist tradition, and
has in his films not only continued but broadened that tradition
by employing new methods. The central problem of screen realism,
one of the unsolved problems of film art, is whether it is better
to project drama through the trained professional actor or to use
non-actors, "types from the street" employed not so much as players
but as camera subjects. Zinnemann has met the issue by using
professional actors but treating them as far as possible as if they
were camera subjects. Even so brilliant a player as Aline Mahon
was used in The Search not for her skill (which she deliberately
muted) but for the warmth which she, as an individual, gives off.
Whenever possible Zinnemann uses unknowns or newcomers: Brando
and Clift made their screen debuts for him, and while audiences
thought the people in his documentary Benjy were natural types,
they were actually unknown actors. To help his actors work, Zinnemann
has always tried ro make his films in their actual setting or, when
that was not feasible, has taken his actors to the locations in
advance of shooting and made them absorb and reflect the feeling
of the subject.
Zinnemann would deny that the Flaherty films themselves had specific
influences on his own work; Flaherty's impact on him was a personal
one. But the artistic relationship between them can be put precisely.
Flaherty's art of direct observation was possible to him because
he always stayed within his lifetime theme of the spirit of Man
put to the test by Nature. Zinnemann, not wanting to confine himself
to this theme, has worked out an art based on observation, in which
his invention is guided at every turn by the closest and most
extensive investigation of his material. Where their films actually
come closest to one another is in a looseness and openness of
construction which manifests itself in part in elision of scenes
which would be considered obligatory in more conventional films.
That openness, that elision, derives from the observational approach,
which waits on the action to determine its own length and climax
and which, in so waiting, achieves a wholeness and intensity which
implies and subsumes much that would otherwise have to be illustrated
in connecting material.
The character of Zinnemann's observational method can be highlighted
by considering it in contrast with the opposing style of High Noon,
made in the classic tradition of the fiction film. Far from being
loose and open, High Noon is as tight as a drum. Its actors are
one and all cast directly on type, and they move in a formal pattern
provided by an editorial structure which relies on a predetermined
slow acceleration of pace to make the total effect. High Noon
concerns a moral conflict, like the other Zinnemann films, but here
the conflict gets expressed not in terms of observed reality but
in those of classic myth.
Zinnemann's methods and goals are still unfamiliar and uncomfortable
to official Hollywood. He has had to arrive at them against the
grain, though he has had good fortune and good friends. His manner
of arriving at them has been unique. No one has ever before suggested
that the relation between the "front office" and the director
constitutes an esthetic discipline to the latter, but that is
exactly what Zinnemann says it is to him. The front office represents
and symbolizes the complex of economic factors which determine the
eventual fate of a film, and it tends to exert its will in terms
of precedents which can rob any film of freshness, vitality, and
style; its forte is hindsight. Through his long, close-textured
apprenticeship in the commercial film, Zinnemann has learned to
fight for his creative concepts. That this was not for the joy of
battle anyone who knows him will testify. His essential discovery
was that to fight the front office for his own ideas he must believe
in those ideas, which implies having done the essential brainwork
to prove them right in his own eyes.
Fighters are welcome. The battlefront of the popular arts is still
the market place, the problem is still that of mating audience and
film, the hope is that the movie can come to contain pity and terror
as well as joy. Seen together, Teresa and The Search, The Men and
A Hatful of Rain take a larger measure of human existence at
mid-twentieth century than any other films except those the Italians
have sent us. Their maker has now to seek a new esthetic discipline
for his future work, since the only front office he can fight from
here on is himself. As head of Highland Films, Inc., he will produce
as well as direct his own films (after completing The Nun's Story,
now filming in Rome and the Congo). "Carte blanche frightens me,"
he once said. Perhaps it will become his new discipline.
Richard Griffith
6347
From:
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dwan
Bill Krohn wrote:
>Whereas the popularity of
>Slightly Scarlet rests also on love of James M. Cain, Rhonda Fleming
>and Arlene Dahl, which aren't really specific to cinema.
Hmm ... coincidentally, I just saw this on DVD and liked it enough where I
rated it "a great film" on my personal web site. But if you asked me why I
liked it, I think I'd say something about its sense of space rather than Cain,
Fleming, or Dahl; I mean, that opening sequence, with the shifting perspectives,
pretty much defines what I love about a director like Dwan who began in the
silent era.
However I'm completely open to the idea that this film won't look as good to
me once I see the films you rate more highly. I mean, "Confidential Report"
looks like the greatest thing ever until you see "Touch of Evil" or "Chimes at
Midnight"...
I'm pretty new to Dwan.
Peter
6348
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 3:04am
Subject: Re: Dwan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> By the same token, I think people overrate Ulmer's PRC period
because
> they love B movies, whereas his fifties work is much richer - 8 or
9
> masterpieces as opposed to 5. These are good examples of what Fred
> calls yielding to "likes" instead of making esthetic judgements,
even
> though Techicolor and B's are noble "likes" which only connoisseurs
> are likely to share in the first place. Whereas the popularity of
> Slightly Scarlet rests also on love of James M. Cain, Rhonda
Fleming
> and Arlene Dahl, which aren't really specific to cinema. One thing
> always puzzled me: Who decided to give Fleming all the sexy
outfits?
> The way her wardrobe cuts against her official "good girl" role is
> one of the things I do kind of like about the film. I'd better shut
> up before I talk myself out of this one...
Making aesthetic judgments is always determined by "likes". How
do you start making judgments if you have no likes or dislikes, are
completely indifferent to a work? You may pretend you're being
totally "objective" (the pseudo-scientific approach of semio-
structuralist and such) but personal preference will always in the
end raise it's "ugly" head, and why shouldn't it?
My interest in "Slightly Scarlet" has very little to do with
being a fan of Technicolor, or of James M. Cain, or even of Rhonda
Fleming (I've never been a fan of any of the above, although I
certainly don't mind Rhonda's sexy outfits). It has more to do with
the use of deep focus, light and shadow, the way the wide-screen
space is utilized. As to the "popularity" of the movie, let's keep
things in perspective. How many Dwan fans are there on the surface of
the earth? We are talking about what? A few hundred people?
Of course, it only took twelve apostles.
JPC
6349
From:
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 10:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Zinnemann
Paul Gallagher wrote:
>I scanned the articles and put them online:
>
>http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm1.html
>http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm2.html
And suddenly I'm regretting that I didn't study that hard in French class (I
feel this way all the time lately). For those more fluent in the language
than I, could anyone give me the "gist" of Vitoux's argument? Specifically, I'm
curious whether his admiration for "Five Days One Summer" is a "late work"
thing (similar to how, for many of us, Huston only got really interesting
starting in the '70s); OR if Vitoux is a long-time Zinnemann supporter.
Peter
6350
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:13am
Subject: Re: Zinnemann
Peter, Vitoux's article (many thanks to Paul!) admires the classical
style of Five Days One Summer ("Is it permissible to still film like
this in the age of the Boormans and the Coppolas?"). After noting
past critical dismissals of Zinnemann ("one remembers the diatribes
of Coursodon and Tavernier"), Vitoux attributes the beauty of Five
Days One Summer to the fact that Zinnemann "has finally made
a personal film".
So, in a way, he IS endorsing the "late work" idea (although,
if anything, Five Days One Summer represents a real turn away
from Zinnemann's themes and concerns, rather than any summing
up of his career). It's also amusing that the French distributors
moved the title season back from Summer to Spring.
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Paul Gallagher wrote:
>
> >I scanned the articles and put them online:
> >
> >http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm1.html
> >http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm2.html
6351
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:37am
Subject: Re: Zinnemann
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Paul Gallagher wrote:
>
> >I scanned the articles and put them online:
> >
> >http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm1.html
> >http://www.panix.com/~pcg/zimm2.html
>
> And suddenly I'm regretting that I didn't study that hard in French
class (I
> feel this way all the time lately). For those more fluent in the
language
> than I, could anyone give me the "gist" of Vitoux's argument?
Specifically, I'm
> curious whether his admiration for "Five Days One Summer" is
a "late work"
> thing (similar to how, for many of us, Huston only got really
interesting
> starting in the '70s); OR if Vitoux is a long-time Zinnemann
supporter.
>
> Peter
Peter, I suppose you're referring to Vitoux's review of "Five
Days One Summer" in POSITIF of March 1983. Well, he definitely wasn't
a long-time Zinnemann supporter -- you couldn't find a single French
cinephile who was. His argument was that at last Z. had made
a "personal" film and that maybe people had been "unfair" to him in
the past (he quotes our put-down of Zinnemann in our 1970 edition and
adds "It is true that Z. was prodigiously irritating in his will to
strive for masterpieces...") His admiration for the film (like mine
and many others') is very much a "late work" thing, as you put it. As
far as I am concerned it's just about the only Zinnemann I really
like.
JPC
6352
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:41am
Subject: Re: Zinnemann
Very much enjoyed the posted articles on Zinnemann.
Unfortunately, Zinnemann's films have always seemed deadly dull. They fully
justify all the negative comments auteurists have made about them over the
years. "Julia" and "From Here to Eternity" are especially hard to take, IMHO. And
I did not like "Five Days One Summer" at all. It is really morbid, and full of
some nasty surprizes. Sick, sick, sick.
On the plus side, "High Noon" does evoke a Western town and its folkways with
a certain vividness and visual style. It is better than some auteurists' and
Hawks' dismissal, but not really good either. "Oklahoma" has good musical
numbers, but little else. Gene Nelson shows his skill as a dancer, again - he is
one of the neglected talents of the musical. One wishes that Rouben Mamoulian,
the musical's original stage director, had been allowed to make the film, with
the same pleasant cast and crew. (Helene Hanff's memoir, "Underfoot in Show
Business", has a delightful account of her work doing publicity tasks for the
stage production.)
I very much liked "A Man For All Seasons" when I saw it as a kid. But more
for Robert Bolt's stage play, and the terrific performance by Paul Scofield.
Scofield always brightens up everything in which he appears.
Mike Grost
6353
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:13am
Subject: Re: Dwan
I love Dwan, and the recent posts brought back so many happy memories!
Just saw "Belle Le Grande" again on TV. This is a Western full of surprising
twists and turns. Like many of Dwan's films, it has a quality of liveliness.
His people are dynamic, energetic, and upbeat and resourceful in the face of
disaster. They seem to have inner resources on which to draw, and are full of
positive ambition and goals. They also seem to be always thinking about their
environment, and drawing original conclusions about their circumstances - they
are intelligent, creative thinkers. They also like to go to new and different
places, and make friends and do projects with the people they meet there.
Among the 50's Dwans mentioned, also really like "Woman They Almost Lynched"
- a film that probably influenced Ray's "Johnny Guitar". Both are female
Westerns. "Silver Lode", "Escape to Burma", "Slightly Scarlet" and "The Restless
Breed" also seemed really good when I saw them years ago. Would love to see them
again!
I echo other posters - think "Tennessee's Partner" is over rated. Among the
musicals of this period, "Calendar Girl" and "I Dream of Jeannie" have some
charm, but also suffer from their low, low budgets.
I envy other posters their recent viewing of Dwan silents. Loved "Robin Hood"
many years ago!
Mike Grost
PS - when TV was staring in the late 1940's, a Lansing, Michigan station had
two films in its library - Dwan's "Getting Gertie's Garter" and "Up in Mabel's
Room". My Dad said these must have been shown 500 times by them.
Unfortunately, they then promptly disappeared. I have never been able to see them.
PPS - Lansing, Michigan is a great place. The campus at Michigan State
University is widely considered one of the most beautiful places on Earth. The
campus is a giant botanical garden, full of thousands of rare trees and shrubs from
all over the world, especially China and Manchuria. Right now it is frozen
over, but come May and June it will be gorgeous.
6354
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:13pm
Subject: Re: Serge Daney, l'Homme Cinema Harvard Symposium 29JAN2004
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
>
> | | | | | |
> SPECIAL EVENT -- Serge Daney, l'Homme Cinema.
> Harvard University (January 2004, Symposium on Thursday, January 29)
>
> >
> SYMPOSIUM -- Beyond Film Criticism:
> A Symposium in Homage to Serge Daney
>
> Harvard University (Thursday, January 29, 10am -- 4pm)
>
> =46or this day-long symposium, a diverse group of
> international scholars and critics will gather to
> examine the influence French critic Serge Daney
> brought to bear on contemporary film culture, the
> contested position of the cinephiliac, and the
> divide between academic and journalistic
> criticism. Panellists will include Bill Krohn
> (UCLA).
Bill -- We expect a full report!
6355
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 1:21pm
Subject: losey on dvd
For all Losey fans out there, Home Vision has announced that they'll
be releasing three Region 1 titles in March: TIME WITHOUT PITY, MR.
KLEIN and THE TROUT (which the website dvdfile.com, where I found
this info, describes as Losey's "hit comedy.") The PITY disc will
also include Losey's first short (produced for the World's Fari)PETE
ROLEUM AND HIS COUSINS.
6356
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 3:02pm
Subject: Re: losey on dvd
Wow,that's great to know.
I have "The Servant" and "Modesty Blaise" (two of my
favorite Loseys) on DVD already -- and so is is
problematic, but nontheless fascinating"Don Giovanni."
"Time Without Pity" is central to MacMahonist
enthusiasm for Losey. "M. Klein" is one of his -- and
Alain Delon's -- very greatest films. The ending is
one of the most devestating in all of cinema. "The
Trout" is uneven, but more than worthwhile.
Interesting in that when he first wanted to do it
Losey had Birgitte Bardot in mind for the lead. He
eventually got to do it -- decades later -- with
Isabelle Huppert. That's a little history of the
French cinema in and of itself. Alexis Smith has an
especially vivid guest star turn in it. I believe it's
her last film.
It also has one of my favorite movie lines, delivered
by the great Jeann Moreau: "Homosexual?
Heterosexual?People are either sexual or they're not!"
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
> For all Losey fans out there, Home Vision has
> announced that they'll
> be releasing three Region 1 titles in March: TIME
> WITHOUT PITY, MR.
> KLEIN and THE TROUT (which the website dvdfile.com,
> where I found
> this info, describes as Losey's "hit comedy.") The
> PITY disc will
> also include Losey's first short (produced for the
> World's Fari)PETE
> ROLEUM AND HIS COUSINS.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6357
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:14pm
Subject: Dwan
To Mike: Getting Gertie's Garter and Up in Mabel's Room are available
on DVD. The one that's hard to find in any form is "Brewster's
Millions", a very very funny comedy (done two or three times before).
6358
From: madlyangelicgirl
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: Genre
Thanks for all the Fetishism stuff, have been away for a while so
sorry for the late thank you. I purchased 'Screening the Male' by
Steven Cohan and Ina Rae Hark, it's actually a really thought
provoking book and offered some fantastic insights into the
spectacle of the male.
Well...
I have another question for you now. I'm answering the
following, 'How useful a concept have you found "genre" to be when
studying film texts? What insight into filmic meaning is offered by
genre criticism?'
I have picked the Western (the most obvious) and am studying The
Searchers, Once Upon a Time in the West and Blazing Saddles. I
agree with Steve Neale's theories of repetitions and differences,
and think these films portray those ideas clearly. I also think
Andrew Tudor makes some interesting assertions.
When referring to filmic meaning I'm assuming that I need to look
for similarities and differences within the 3 films, is that correct?
Thank you in advance!
6359
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Genre
With all due respect, your educators are brainwashing you with
absolute crap. It would be better to take a bomb to your school and
start anew, burn most of your TEXTbooks--
For the further US developments of the trend:
http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i17/17a00601.htm
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "madlyangelicgirl"
wrote:
> Thanks for all the Fetishism stuff, have been away for a while so
> sorry for the late thank you. I purchased 'Screening the Male' by
> Steven Cohan and Ina Rae Hark, it's actually a really thought
> provoking book and offered some fantastic insights into the
> spectacle of the male.
>
> Well...
>
> I have another question for you now. I'm answering the
> following, 'How useful a concept have you found "genre" to be when
> studying film texts? What insight into filmic meaning is offered by
> genre criticism?'
>
> I have picked the Western (the most obvious) and am studying The
> Searchers, Once Upon a Time in the West and Blazing Saddles. I
> agree with Steve Neale's theories of repetitions and differences,
> and think these films portray those ideas clearly. I also think
> Andrew Tudor makes some interesting assertions.
>
> When referring to filmic meaning I'm assuming that I need to look
> for similarities and differences within the 3 films, is that
correct?
>
> Thank you in advance!
6360
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Genre
To: madlyangelicgirl
Genre studies is not a monolithic subject. It is a diverse field of people with hugely differeing approaches, agendas, and backgrounds.
When genre studies are done "right", they involve the same sort of highly in-depth examination of individual films, and put as much emphasis on stylistic features as auteur studies.
Some examples of good books dealing with genre:
Film Noir Reader, edited by Alain Silver and James Ursini.
Horizons West by Jim Kitses
Science Fiction in the Cinema, by John Baxter
There is a little article on my web site, suggesting how genre studies and auteur studies can be complementary to each other:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/zgenre.htm
None of these involve much discussion of "The Searchers", "Once Upon a Time in the West" or "Blazing Saddles". I can see problems right away in this choice of films.
"Blazing Saddles" is mainly a silly comedy. While set in the old West, it really has little to do with any traditions of the Western. You could watch it a 100 times, and not see much connection to "The Searchers". A better Western comedy-spoof is "Cat Ballou". The "singing narration" that runs through "Cat Ballou" actually has some formal similarities to the song in "Rancho Notorious" (Fritz Lang), the great "real Western" example of same.
I know I am an auteurist, and thus perhaps "biased" in favor of directors, but it seems to me that you would learn MUCH more about "The Searchers" (John Ford) by watching other films directed by John Ford. Seeing "Fort Apache", "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon", "Sergeant Rutledge", and "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence" could teach you tons of worthwhile things about Ford. Plus you would see real film classics, that would enrich your real movie knowledge.
Mike Grost
(There are teardrops in my heart,
but They'll never make me cry!)
6361
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:15pm
Subject: Re: Genre
What is your best reference on STYLISTIC FEATURES?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> To: madlyangelicgirl
> Genre studies is not a monolithic subject. It is a diverse field of people with hugely
differeing approaches, agendas, and backgrounds.
> When genre studies are done "right", they involve the same sort of highly in-depth
examination of individual films, and put as much emphasis on stylistic features as
auteur studies.
> Some examples of good books dealing with genre:
> Film Noir Reader, edited by Alain Silver and James Ursini.
> Horizons West by Jim Kitses
> Science Fiction in the Cinema, by John Baxter
6362
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:38pm
Subject: Re: Losey
Well, I have BOOM!
6363
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:39pm
Subject: Re Serge Daney symposium
Here's some news for starters, re the oficial description: I don't
teach at UCLA, or anywhere else.
6364
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:41pm
Subject: Re: Genre
madlyangelicgirl, You have sowed discord, and now we will all reap
the whirlwind.
Some day when your education permits, read Blake Lucas's article on
Women in the Western in the new essay collection, The Western, edited
(I think) by Jim Kitses. It's one of the best pieces I know on the
genre.
6365
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Re Serge Daney symposium
you teach here!
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> Here's some news for starters, re the oficial description: I don't
> teach at UCLA, or anywhere else.
6366
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Genre
http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue10/infocus/
30 great westerns
6367
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:02pm
Subject: Re: Genre
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> madlyangelicgirl, You have sowed discord, and now we will all reap
> the whirlwind.
>
I'm surprised that Tag hasn't jumped in to say that there is
no such thing as "genre".
I tend to agree with Patrick in another post, although his
bombing suggestion may be a bit extreme.
I also wonder if helping film students writing some term paper
is among the objectives of this group. Fred? Peter?
JPC
6368
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:07pm
Subject: Re: Re Serge Daney symposium
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Here's some news for starters, re the oficial description: I don't
> teach at UCLA, or anywhere else.
I had been wondering about that one, Bill. Thought maybe you were
too modest (or too ashamed?) to acknowledge an academic affiliation.
6369
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Losey
Is that out on DVD? Ye Gods!
Can "Secret Ceremony" be next?
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Well, I have BOOM!
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6370
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Genre
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> I also wonder if helping film students writing some term
paper
> is among the objectives of this group. Fred? Peter?
>
> JPC
Though it would be interesting to see if the footnotes Krohn,
Coursodon, Gallagher, Camper etc. mean anything in the meaningless
world of British cultural studies.
In parlance:
"As Krohn has shown..."
Alright, I'll desist--I only bite because I think Bill's recent post
had reasonably and profitably settled the theory question. (Though I
guess I still prefers "aesthetics" or "poetics" but that's a quibble.)
6371
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:28pm
Subject: Re: losey on dvd
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Wow,that's great to know.
>
> I have "The Servant" and "Modesty Blaise" (two of my
> favorite Loseys) on DVD already -- and so is is
> problematic, but nontheless fascinating"Don Giovanni."
> "Time Without Pity" is central to MacMahonist
> enthusiasm for Losey.
Yes but the McMahonists hated "The Servant" and promptly
dropped Losey from their "carre d'as". Nearly thirty years later
Lourcelles was still vituperating against the film in
his "Dictionnaire du Cinema." They despised all his subsequent films.
One of my favorite Loseys is/was "The Prowler" but I haven't
seen it in ages. That's one they should put out rather than "The
Trout" which I find quite minor and forgettable. (at least it didn't
have Bardot). But M. Klein is indeed a great movie.
JPC
"M. Klein" is one of his -- and
> Alain Delon's -- very greatest films. The ending is
> one of the most devestating in all of cinema. "The
> Trout" is uneven, but more than worthwhile.
> Interesting in that when he first wanted to do it
> Losey had Birgitte Bardot in mind for the lead. He
> eventually got to do it -- decades later -- with
> Isabelle Huppert. That's a little history of the
> French cinema in and of itself. Alexis Smith has an
> especially vivid guest star turn in it. I believe it's
> her last film.
>
> It also has one of my favorite movie lines, delivered
> by the great Jeann Moreau: "Homosexual?
> Heterosexual?People are either sexual or they're not!"
>
> --- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
> > For all Losey fans out there, Home Vision has
> > announced that they'll
> > be releasing three Region 1 titles in March: TIME
> > WITHOUT PITY, MR.
> > KLEIN and THE TROUT (which the website dvdfile.com,
> > where I found
> > this info, describes as Losey's "hit comedy.") The
> > PITY disc will
> > also include Losey's first short (produced for the
> > World's Fari)PETE
> > ROLEUM AND HIS COUSINS.
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6372
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: losey on dvd
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Yes but the McMahonists hated "The Servant"
> and promptly
> dropped Losey from their "carre d'as". Nearly thirty
> years later
> Lourcelles was still vituperating against the film
> in
> his "Dictionnaire du Cinema." They despised all his
> subsequent films.
Now why do you suppose this was? Homophobia? Class
Struggle? Antipathy to Cleo Laine?
>
> One of my favorite Loseys is/was "The Prowler"
> but I haven't
> seen it in ages. That's one they should put out
> rather than "The
> Trout" which I find quite minor and forgettable. (at
> least it didn't
> have Bardot). But M. Klein is indeed a great movie.
> JPC
"The Prowler" is very entertaining. A kind of low-rent
"Double Indemnity."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6373
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Genre
If there is no such thing as genre, there is no such thing as auteur.
6374
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:50pm
Subject: Re: Re Serge Daney symposium
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> you teach here!
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> > Here's some news for starters, re the oficial description: I
don't
> > teach at UCLA, or anywhere else.
Thank you, Elizabeth. Very well put. When I saw that UCLA thing I
presumed that Bill had been teaching there on an adjunct basis or
something. If he lived in New York I'd be trying to lure him to where
I teach at Hunter and for more than something than the "boiler plate"
English he did there years ago.
6375
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 8:09pm
Subject: Re: losey on dvd
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > Wow,that's great to know.
> >
> > I have "The Servant" and "Modesty Blaise" (two of my
> > favorite Loseys) on DVD already -- and so is is
> > problematic, but nontheless fascinating"Don Giovanni."
> > "Time Without Pity" is central to MacMahonist
> > enthusiasm for Losey.
>
>
>
> One of my favorite Loseys is/was "The Prowler" but I haven't
> seen it in ages. That's one they should put out rather than "The
> Trout" which I find quite minor and forgettable. (at least it
didn't have Bardot). But M. Klein is indeed a great movie.
I like all of Losey, except for maybe FIGURES IN A LANDSCAPE and
(although I haven't seen it since it came out) STEAMING. Losey has
spoken of his debt to the MacMahonists, of how grateful he was in
terms of their enthusiasm for his early work during a low point in
his career. But he also noted that his relationship with them "turned
bitter in many instances, and it was often exploited." Then again,
Losey saw betrayal everywhere.
I'm dying to look at THE TROUT again. I saw it twice when it came
out but haven't seen it since. I love most films where fish assume a
very prominent role. (Sharks and, of course, whales don't count.)
Deleuze was a great admirer of the film and, in addition to writing
about it in CINEMA 1, also briefly mentioned it in his interview with
Bonitzer and Narboni in CAHIERS. Acknowledging that THE TROUT was
badly received in France, "even by CAHIERS," Deleuze nevertheless
finds it a major film and a reworking of EVE. Anyway, those
wonderful naturalist links Deleuze draws between Stroheim, Bunuel and
Losey are one of the high points of CINEMA 1.
>
______________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6376
From: GaryTooze
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 8:24pm
Subject: Tati's "Jour de fête"
Wondering if anyone has an opinion on these two versions of Tati's "Jour de
fête" shown here:
http://207.136.67.23/film/DVDCompare2/jourdefete.htm
Thanks,
Gary
6377
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 4:24pm
Subject: Female voice-overs?
Biding my time until I get blown up by one of the anti-academia terrorists on
our list, I read Kaja Silverman's The Acoustic Mirror. Shock of all shocks,
she makes an excellent point (in an academic text, no less!!) about how there
has never been a disembodied (non-diegetic) female voice-over in Hollywood
cinema. The closest she found was the voice-over (Celeste Holm's, right?) in A
Letter to Three Wives which isn't all that close since, spoilers ahead, she is
revealed to be part of the diegesis (the storyworld).
My question, then, is does anyone know of a classical Hollywood film
(pre-1960, borrowing from Bordwell, Staiger and Thompson but I would push it to '67 or
so) where there is a female non-diegetic voice-over?
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6378
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
Anthony Mann's RAW DEAL? I can't remember it correctly...
> My question, then, is does anyone know of a classical Hollywood
film
> (pre-1960, borrowing from Bordwell, Staiger and Thompson but I
would push it to '67 or
> so) where there is a female non-diegetic voice-over?
>
6379
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> My question, then, is does anyone know of a classical Hollywood
film (pre-1960, borrowing from Bordwell, Staiger and Thompson but I
would push it to '67 or
> so) where there is a female non-diegetic voice-over?
>
Kevin, I may think of some others but right now (and it's not a pure
non-diegetic character) there's Anne Baxter narrating MOTHER WORE
TIGHTS. She plays Mona Freeman's character as an adult and we never
see Baxter herself, only her adolescent version.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6380
From: George Robinson
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Female voice-overs?
Nope, she's diegetic.
g
To find a form that accommodates the
mess, that is the task of the artist.
--Samuel Beckett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ciccone"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Female voice-overs?
> Anthony Mann's RAW DEAL? I can't remember it correctly...
6381
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:43pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ciccone" wrote:
> Anthony Mann's RAW DEAL? I can't remember it correctly...
It's Claire Trevor's narration. She's very diegetic although we
never see the place from which she is narrating.
6382
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
There was definitely a female narrator in "Tell Them Willie Boy Was Here" (Abraham Polonsky) in the early 1970's. I remember being surprized, seeing it at the time.
I vaguely recall one in "Kiss of Death" (Henry Hathaway, 1947) - but my memory could be playing tricks! Do not remember if she is a character in the movie.
The heroine narrates a lot of "I Walked with a Zombie" (Jacques Tourneur).
As a kid, I regularly watched a wonderful TV program: "Shirley Temple's Storybook Theater" (circa 1960). This featured imaginative adaptations of classics, done with non-naturalistic sets and costumes - very avant-garde. Their version of "The Wizard of Oz" was quite different from the famous movie. Do not know if this had any female narration by Shirley.
Does the movie "I Remember Mama" (George Stevens) have a female narrator?
Mike Grost
6383
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> There was definitely a female narrator in "Tell Them Willie Boy Was
Here" (Abraham Polonsky) in the early 1970's. I remember being
surprized, seeing it at the time.> I vaguely recall one in "Kiss of
Death" (Henry Hathaway, 1947) - but my memory could be playing
tricks! Do not remember if she is a character in the movie. The
heroine narrates a lot of "I Walked with a Zombie" (Jacques
Tourneur). > As a kid, I regularly watched a wonderful TV
program: "Shirley Temple's Storybook Theater" (circa 1960). This
featured imaginative adaptations of classics, done with non-
naturalistic sets and costumes - very avant-garde. Their version
of "The Wizard of Oz" was quite different from the famous movie. Do
not know if this had any female narration by Shirley. Does the
>movie "I Remember Mama" (George Stevens) have a female narrator?
I never saw WILLE BOY but the rest are all diegetic, Mike: Colleen
Gray narrates KISS OF DEATH and Barbara Bel Geddes does for MAMA.
6384
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:45pm
Subject: Re: losey on dvd
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> > Yes but the McMahonists hated "The Servant"
> > and promptly
> > dropped Losey from their "carre d'as". Nearly thirty
> > years later
> > Lourcelles was still vituperating against the film
> > in
> > his "Dictionnaire du Cinema." They despised all his
> > subsequent films.
>
> Now why do you suppose this was? Homophobia? Class
> Struggle? Antipathy to Cleo Laine?
>
Possibly all the the above, but the expressed objections were such
things as old-fashioned, musty artiness, European pseudo-profundity,
conventional/predictable ambiguity, lack of spontaneity. Pinter of
course was largely to blame. Losey had become the opposite of
everything they loved in his earlier film. JPC
> >
> > One of my favorite Loseys is/was "The Prowler"
> > but I haven't
> > seen it in ages. That's one they should put out
> > rather than "The
> > Trout" which I find quite minor and forgettable. (at
> > least it didn't
> > have Bardot). But M. Klein is indeed a great movie.
> > JPC
>
> "The Prowler" is very entertaining. A kind of low-rent
> "Double Indemnity."
>
> When i saw Modesty Blaise in 1966 I found it almost unbearable
and never wanted to watch it again. Do you like it as Camp?
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6385
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:58pm
Subject: Re: Female voice-overs?
possibilities
Barbara Streisand in something she produced / directed
Julie Andrews in a Disney type thing
Susan Saradon in an Asian film I saw at CineVegas about young
girls sold into prostitution
my guess because of the distinctiveness of their voices
Loretta Young
Angela Landsbury
Barbara Stanwyck
I am on a modem connection and can't look things up on IMBD right
now.
At Palm Springs for International FF.
http://www.psfilmfest.org/
Anyone here at the festival? Anyone find anything interesting on the
film list?
6386
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:00am
Subject: voice-overs
The fact is that non-diegetic voice-overs, either male or female, are
extremely rare in classical fiction cinema. Actually I can't think of
any, although I'm sure someone will be able to dig up one. There was
at a time (mostly in the forties and fifties) voice-overs for comedy
shorts such as the Pete Smith specialties -- running commentaries of
what was taking place on screen -- but I guess those don't count.
JPC
6387
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:07am
Subject: Ingrid Thulin
An incredibly sad day for the movies: I just found out by clicking over
to Nick Wrigley's Masters of Cinema site that Ingrid Thulin passed away
yesterday in Stockholm. I haven't seen this story anywhere else yet,
but I'm sure more details will come out in the days ahead.
craig.
6388
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:07am
Subject: Re: Re: losey on dvd
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> > When i saw Modesty Blaise in 1966 I found it
> almost unbearable
> and never wanted to watch it again. Do you like it
> as Camp?
> >
Is the Pope Catholic?
It is Beating Heart of Camp! Not since "The Devil is a
Woman" has there been a film whose ever frame swoons
with pleasure from its own stylistic intensity. As
"role models" go Dirk Bogarde's Gabriel is right up
there with Mary Astor in "The Palm Beach Story" in my
book.
And leave us not forget that Terence Stamp's playmate
in one sequence -- in which she's knifed on back
street in Amsterdam -- is none other than Tina Aumont
(billed for some reasons as "Tina Marquand"), the
daughter of Maria Montez!
Back in 1966 when it was released I sat through it
four times in a row!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
6389
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:20am
Subject: Re: voice-overs
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> The fact is that non-diegetic voice-overs, either male or female,
>are extremely rare in classical fiction cinema. Actually I can't
>think of any, although I'm sure someone will be able to dig up one.
>There was at a time (mostly in the forties and fifties) voice-overs
>for comedy shorts such as the Pete Smith specialties -- running
>commentaries of what was taking place on screen -- but I guess those
>don't count.
But if one does find a non-diegetic narrator in pre-1960 Hollywood
(Kevin's primary concern)that narrator will invariably be male: DUEL
IN THE SUN, THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS, TO BE OR NOT TO BE, BEYOND THE
FOREST, etc. There are many female narrators, of course, but they
are almost always characters within the diegesis and are never given
the kind of presiding power so often connoted through non-diegetic
narration. There are probably some documentary shorts produced by
Hollywood with non-diegetic female narrators but I would guess that
most of them have some kind of specialized female interest to them.
I only thought of one other title, Kevin, although it's not
Hollywood: Renoir's THE RIVER. But that, again, follows the MOTHER
WORE TIGHTS idea (which probably has its genesis in HOW GREEN WAS MY
VALLEY) of an unseen adult character narrating their childhood or
adolescence.
6390
From: Tosh
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:40am
Subject: losey on dvd & Jour de fete
I have to see Modesty Blaise again. I have become a huge Losey fan
via The Servant and Eve.
On another note, which version is Criterion is putting out of 'Jour de fete?'
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
6391
From: George Robinson
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Female voice-overs?
The narrator of Kiss of Death is Mature's second wife, definitely diegetic.
What's shocking to me isn't that there don't seem to be any non-diegetic
female narrators but that there are so damned few diegetic ones also.
The second Mrs. deWinter in Rebecca is another diegetic one, by the way.
g
To find a form that accommodates the
mess, that is the task of the artist.
--Samuel Beckett
6392
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:18am
Subject: Jour de fête / Criterion
>
> On another note, which version is Criterion is putting out of 'Jour de
> fete?'
They haven't announced yet, but I would bet my arms and legs that the
package will include both versions of the film. If Criterion couldn't
include both films in the set, it seems very unlikely that they would
even go ahead with the release. (They had 'The Rules of the Game' held
up for over three years in an effort to get a hold of the cleanest [and
most complete collection of] film elements; likewise, 'Ikiru'; and
Kurosawa's 'The Lower Depths' has been held back for the same reason --
'Tales of Hoffmann' and 'Ivan's Childhood' might never be released at
the rate these two releases have been delayed.) As a good example of
Criterion's devotion to putting out the absolute most -complete-
package for any film, look no further than the March release of 'Scenes
from a Marriage,' which will include both the theatrical and
five-and-a-half hour long TV serial versions.
craig.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6393
From:
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:35am
Subject: Re: voice-overs
For female non-diegetic narrators in pre-60 American popular cinema,
I'm pretty sure there are numerous instances of them in Disney
animated films. CINDERELLA I'm pretty sure had a female narrator. I
was always under the impression SLEEPING BEAUTY did, too, but
checking on the IMDB, it turns out that's not the case.
Post-60s there are some more instances. For example, Scorsese's THE
AGE OF INNOCENCE.
One of the things that affected the choice of narrator was, of
course, source material. Very often, adaptations of novels would
allow some room to introduce the prose of the book as narration.
You'd think that sometimes (as in Scorsese's later film) there would
be a female narrator speaking the words of a female writer, but no
dice.
-Bilge
6394
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 2:16am
Subject: Re: losey on dvd & Jour de fete
Welll anytime you want to come over and watch it let
me know, Tosh!
Losey was the director who really made mise en scene
vivid for me -- especially in terms of expressive
camera placement and camera movement. I have always
found the end of "The Servant" with James Fox passing
out on the stairs, Bogarde and Miles giggling in the
bedroom and Dankworth's sad, weary score petering out
as if in sympathy with Fox made all the more
devestaing by a final pan from the stairway to the
clock in the hall which chimes second before the final
fade-out.
--- Tosh wrote:
> I have to see Modesty Blaise again. I have become a
> huge Losey fan
> via The Servant and Eve.
>
> On another note, which version is Criterion is
> putting out of 'Jour de fete?'
> --
> Tosh Berman
> TamTam Books
> http://www.tamtambooks.com
>
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6395
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: Genre
jpcoursodon asked
I also wonder if helping film students writing some term paper
is among the objectives of this group. Fred? Peter?
JPC
In response to earlier posts, we rewrote our Statement of Purpose some weeks
ago (see the "files" section or http://www.fredcamper.com/M/Purpose.html for
the whole thing), with the agreement of our group's founding members, to
include the following:
"Historically, the 'auteur theory' has been more of a modus operandi or
politique for film lovers than a genuine 'theory,' and ours is a group for people
who love cinema, or the work of particular filmmakers. Film students who love
cinema and agree with our principles are welcome. Film students only looking
for help with their papers are discouraged from applying."
It seems clear, then, that requests for assistance with film-related
schoolwork from a film lover whose posts have already evidenced that love are
permitted, but that a poster who only asks the members of our group for homework help
should cease and desist. Offering assistance with assignments posted here,
sometimes verbatim, is not the purpose of our group, that's not why it was
founded, and it's not why we moderators continue to put the time into it that we do.
Members who find an assignment in a university film class interesting, or
silly, or absurd, or a sign of the decline and fall of western civilization, are
of course encouraged to post it verbatim for comments on the merit or lack of
merit in the assignment itself.
Fred Camper and Peter Tonguette
Co-Moderators
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6396
From:
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: voice-overs
> The fact is that non-diegetic voice-overs, either male or female,
>are extremely rare in classical fiction cinema. Actually I can't
>think of any, although I'm sure someone will be able to dig up one.
There's a non-diegetic male voice-over at the beginning of The Reckless
Moment.
>But if one does find a non-diegetic narrator in pre-1960 Hollywood
>(Kevin's primary concern)that narrator will invariably be male
Yes, Joe, that's exactly my point. Thanx! But now that you've mentioned The
River, I'd be interested to hear of non-Hollywood, pre-1960 films that fit the
description better.
And thanx to whoever mentioned Raw Deal even though it didn't fit the bill. I
saw it for the first time just last night and the narration is what reminded
me to ask the list. Gorgeous film (particularly dug the fist fight caught in
netting) and the DVD had this amazing extra of Preminger on the set of The Man
With The Golden Arm chatting about the film's nervy subject matter.
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6397
From:
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 4:36am
Subject: Re: losey on dvd
David Ehrenstein :
>
> Back in 1966 when it was released I sat through [MODESTY BLAISE]
> four times in a row!
>
>
Wow. I adore Losey, but I've always found MODESTY BLAISE rather
tiresome. But I'll wait until a proper film screening to pass final
judgment on it. I know Losey himself was quite proud of it, and
despite the film's pop origins, he really wanted to film it.
It is, however, a gorgeous film, and a triumph of production design,
at the very least. Also, I would recommend it to all the McG fans
on this board as an earlier (and better, I'd say, though I still
don't like it all that much) template for the silliness of CHARLIE'S
ANGELS: FULL THROTTLE (which, for all its alleged lightheartedness,
I found rather exhausting and unbearable).
-Bilge
6398
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:22am
Subject: Re: Re: losey on dvd
--- ebiri@a... wrote:
> Wow. I adore Losey, but I've always found MODESTY
> BLAISE rather
> tiresome. But I'll wait until a proper film
> screening to pass final
> judgment on it. I know Losey himself was quite proud
> of it, and
> despite the film's pop origins, he really wanted to
> film it.
>
> It is, however, a gorgeous film, and a triumph of
> production design,
> at the very least.
Oh it's much more than that. It's central to Losey's
concerns about fortress/homes "invaded" by outsiders
(see "The Servant," "Secret Ceremony" and "Boom!" or
"Modesty Blaise Takes a Streetcar Named Noel Coward")
On the terrace of Gabriel's house an Elizabeth Frink
sculpture, much like the one she created for "These
Are the Damned," is clearly visible.
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6399
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:31am
Subject: Re: Jour de fête / Criterion
The Criterion website says, "These DVDs will be identical to
Criterion's original releases in every way" and it has been confirmed
by Jon Mulvaney. So you owe us your arms and legs :)
Henrik
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> >
> > On another note, which version is Criterion is putting out of
'Jour de
> > fete?'
>
> They haven't announced yet, but I would bet my arms and legs that
the
> package will include both versions of the film. If Criterion
couldn't
> include both films in the set, it seems very unlikely that they
would
> even go ahead with the release. (They had 'The Rules of the Game'
held
> up for over three years in an effort to get a hold of the cleanest
[and
> most complete collection of] film elements; likewise, 'Ikiru'; and
> Kurosawa's 'The Lower Depths' has been held back for the same reason
--
> 'Tales of Hoffmann' and 'Ivan's Childhood' might never be released
at
> the rate these two releases have been delayed.) As a good example
of
> Criterion's devotion to putting out the absolute most -complete-
> package for any film, look no further than the March release of
'Scenes
> from a Marriage,' which will include both the theatrical and
> five-and-a-half hour long TV serial versions.
>
> craig.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
6400
From: Tristan
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:41am
Subject: Re: Jour de fête / Criterion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> The Criterion website says, "These DVDs will be identical to
> Criterion's original releases in every way" and it has been
confirmed
> by Jon Mulvaney. So you owe us your arms and legs :)
>
> Henrik
Um, it can't be identical to the already released version of Jour de
Fete when there has been no DVD released by Criterion of Jour de
Fete. He meant that Monsieur Hulot's Holiday and Mon Oncle will be
identical. Playtime will be the director's cut, and the number of
versions on Jour de Fete is just speculation.
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