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This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
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7301
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 2:35pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
A woman hires a
> gay man, who is
> repulsed by her, to come to her house and watch her,
> as she wasn't
> mean to be watched. Exploring why he is repulsed by
> her, the man
> graduately crosses the borders of his repulsion and
> experiences pure
> sexuality, not based on arousement of the flesh nor
> gender.
>
Same old, same old. A master's thesis is waiting to be
written on the desire (som but thankfully not all)
straight women have for gay men. They are a world to
conquer far in excess of anything she imagines she can
experiecne with heterosexuality. They are so convinced
of their power that they must beat gay men into
submission. They are taught from chi;ldhood that the
entire world revolves around them and they are the
only thing that matters -- even to those men who have
nothing to ofer them but friendship
This was the heat of the Duras/ Andrea relationship,
not dealt with at all in the entirely specious film
made about it starring Jeanne Moreau.
> In the world of Breillat, sexuality is above the
> body, and sex and
> sexuality are not necessary the same thing. In
> Anatomie de l'enfer,
> its not. Sex is linked to an object (the body,
> gender). Sexuality is
> of the mind. She elaborated on this in several
> scenes, but strongest,
> where the woman is about to insert a fresh tampon:
> "Look at it. It has
> the same size as a penis, I can insert it without
> any form of
> foreplay. I don't feel anything doing it. If so, why
> should I feel
> anything having sex?"
A PENIS IS NOT A TAMPON!!!!!
>
> With Anatomie de l'enfer, Catherine Breillat has
> taken her exploration
> of sexuality to its very limit and beyond
As if.
I liked her first feature "Tapage Nocturne." That's
about it.
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7302
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 4:48pm
Subject: Re: Fuller on TV
George, thanks for the title correction. Death Hunt is the one to
see, and On Her Majesty's Secret Service, directed by Peter Hunt, is
indeed the best of the Bonds. The montage in the ski chase sequence
is so great that CBS showed it twice when they ran OHMSS in two parts
in prime time. Beware: There are TWO Peter Hunts, and the other one
is a clinker.
7303
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 11:35pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
David, isn't that a bit too misogynistic? Do you feel that
threatened? Have so many women tried to beat you into submission?
I have respect and sometimes admiration for Breillat. I thought
the bondage scenes in "Romance" were great, both erotic and touching.
By and large her vision of sexuality is bleak, but sex is often
bleak, ain't it?
JPC
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
>
> Same old, same old. A master's thesis is waiting to be
> written on the desire (som but thankfully not all)
> straight women have for gay men. They are a world to
> conquer far in excess of anything she imagines she can
> experiecne with heterosexuality. They are so convinced
> of their power that they must beat gay men into
> submission. They are taught from chi;ldhood that the
> entire world revolves around them and they are the
> only thing that matters -- even to those men who have
> nothing to ofer them but friendship
>
> taken her exploration
> > of sexuality to its very limit and beyond
>
>
> As if.
>
> I liked her first feature "Tapage Nocturne." That's
> about it.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
7304
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 0:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> David, isn't that a bit too misogynistic?
When a woman attacks gay men in this fashion is
fighting back misogynistic? I don't think so. And if
anyone wants to, that's too dmaned bad.
Do you
> feel that
> threatened?
There's no "that" about it. A threat is a threat. And
Breillat is making one. The very notion that a gay man
would be "disgusted" by a woman is disgusting.
Have so many women tried to beat you
> into submission?
Only metaphorically. Duras is one example. Shall we
bring up Pauline Kael's seduction of James Broughton
-- getting pregnant by him in the bargain?
>
> I have respect and sometimes admiration for
> Breillat. I thought
> the bondage scenes in "Romance" were great, both
> erotic and touching.
> By and large her vision of sexuality is bleak, but
> sex is often
> bleak, ain't it?
> JPC
>
When I'm looking for bleak I'll take Pasolini.
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7305
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 3:06am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> > David, isn't that a bit too misogynistic?
>
> When a woman attacks gay men in this fashion is
> fighting back misogynistic? I don't think so. And if
> anyone wants to, that's too dmaned bad.
>
> Do you
> > feel that
> > threatened?
>
> There's no "that" about it. A threat is a threat. And
> Breillat is making one. The very notion that a gay man
> would be "disgusted" by a woman is disgusting.
>
> Have so many women tried to beat you
> > into submission?
>
> Only metaphorically. Duras is one example. Shall we
> bring up Pauline Kael's seduction of James Broughton
> -- getting pregnant by him in the bargain?
>
> >
> > I have respect and sometimes admiration for
> > Breillat. I thought
> > the bondage scenes in "Romance" were great, both
> > erotic and touching.
> > By and large her vision of sexuality is bleak, but
> > sex is often
> > bleak, ain't it?
> > JPC
> >
>
> When I'm looking for bleak I'll take Pasolini.
>
> ___I'll take romance. I'll take vanilla.
JPC_______________________________
>
7306
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 6:31am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
We can't judge a film we haven't seen. Unless it's by Brisseau, in
which case it's bad. And misogynistic.
7307
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 8:28am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
David wrote:
"They are so convinced of their power that they must beat gay men into
submission."
With all respect, it has nothing to do with what you imply. The reason
Breillat chose a homosexual man is, by being gay, he isn't sexually
attracted to the female sex. Thus the transition from sex to
sexuality, which in the world of Breillat isn't related to body but is
of the mind, is easier demonstrated.
But as Bill says, we can't discuss the film before we've seen it. I
merely wanted to draw attention to Breillat, a director I have admired
for several years now, and who just made, what in my opinion is, her
best film.
J-P wrote
"By and large her vision of sexuality is bleak"
I agree. It is like, that the expectations of her characters never are
met, and always turn out the wrong way, as in "Romance X", where she
visits the gynochologist; instead of an intimate and private moment
between her and her doctor, she is examined by 8 trainees.
Henrik
7308
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 2:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
The reason
> Breillat chose a homosexual man is, by being gay, he
> isn't sexually
> attracted to the female sex. Thus the transition
> from sex to
> sexuality, which in the world of Breillat isn't
> related to body but is
> of the mind, is easier demonstrated.
>
Not so fast! Gayness does NOT revolve around women!
It is an attraction to men, not an avoidance of women
that is at issue. One might as well say that
Breillat'sinterest in the male sex pivots on her
refusal to deal with lesbianism. That would, of
course, be absurd. Yet you find what Breillat proposes
perfectly acceptable.
Once again: My cock is NOT a Tampon!
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7309
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 2:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
Sing Out Louise!
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> We can't judge a film we haven't seen. Unless it's
> by Brisseau, in
> which case it's bad. And misogynistic.
>
>
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7310
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
> I would like to point the light on Catherine Breillat for a moment, as
> I, thru my recent work, have come the conclusion, that she is not only
> is an auteur, but also arguable the most interesting, challeging and
> groundbreaking female director today, nay forget gender.
I think she's the best filmmaker going right now, period.
> I liked her first feature "Tapage Nocturne." That's
> about it.
UNE VRAIE JEUNE FILLE is her first feature: it wasn't released in 1976,
but it was basically finished, and some people saw and wrote about it at
the time.
I once tried to summarize Breillat in 250 words for an AMMI brochure:
http://www.panix.com/~sallitt/breillat.html
- Dan
7311
From:
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 9:40pm
Subject: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
Daisies (Vera Chytilova, 1966). Genuinely strange film, plotless, very avant-garde. At first (for around one half hour) the infantile behavior of the two leads is just annoying. Then the experimental features start kicking in, including experimentation in color. Very interesting, and really different. Seen on DVD.
The Glass Wall (Maxwell Shane, 1953). Film noir about a refugee on the run in New York City. Lots of political commentary, well acted, absorbing. Shane was a prolific scriptwriter who directed only a handful of films. He's not Fritz Lang, but he's not bad either! Seen on Encore Mystery Chanel on Cable TV.
Mike Grost
(who loves Cosmos in the Daisy family)
7312
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
"Daisies" is an amazing piece of work. Rivette was
wildly enthusiastic about it, and it's an obvioulsy
important influence on "Celine and Julie Go Boating."
The only films I can think of that are remotely like
it in spirit are Louis Malle's "Zazie" and William
Klein's "Mr. Freedom" and "Qui Etes-Vous Polly Magoo?"
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Daisies (Vera Chytilova, 1966). Genuinely strange
> film, plotless, very avant-garde. At first (for
> around one half hour) the infantile behavior of the
> two leads is just annoying. Then the experimental
> features start kicking in, including experimentation
> in color. Very interesting, and really different.
> Seen on DVD.
> The Glass Wall (Maxwell Shane, 1953). Film noir
> about a refugee on the run in New York City. Lots of
> political commentary, well acted, absorbing. Shane
> was a prolific scriptwriter who directed only a
> handful of films. He's not Fritz Lang, but he's not
> bad either! Seen on Encore Mystery Chanel on Cable
> TV.
>
> Mike Grost
> (who loves Cosmos in the Daisy family)
>
>
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7313
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 10:17pm
Subject: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
I know there's a few Los Angeles-based members here, so for anyone
who's interested, "Daisies" is scheduled for an upcoming screening
and discussion at UC Irvine on March 13:
http://www.humanities.uci.edu/fvc/sched_daisies.html
Doug
7314
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
The last movie by Catherine Breillat is fascinating. Only seeing the
boldness of the view is closing one's eyes. Breillat does not only
deserves our respect for the boldness and the freedom of her work
(boldness has no value by itself), she deserves our admiration for
her constant determination to explore Cinema by soliciting its most
mysterious and radical ways. When the few shot/revere shots are dull
and lifeless, the entire world pours in the unity of these frozen
shots where burning bodies participate in a ceremony of death and
desire which unfailingly shows the miracle of incarnation. This shot
of the bloodstained male sex is precious, not because of its own
strength and beauty, but because it is the rare expression of the
inextricable faces of life and death of our sexuality. I'm still
hearing the trembling laughs of the audience; I know these laughs
were only the expression of the uneasiness in front of the revealed
truth.
7315
From: Brian Darr
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:23am
Subject: Daisies upcoming screenings
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Doug Cummings wrote:
>
> I know there's a few Los Angeles-based members here, so for anyone
> who's interested, "Daisies" is scheduled for an upcoming screening
> and discussion at UC Irvine on March 13:
>
> http://www.humanities.uci.edu/fvc/sched_daisies.html
>
> Doug
And for any Northern Californians: it screens March 11 at SFMOMA.
7316
From: Brian Frye
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:27am
Subject: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
Daisies is indeed excellent. Reminded me a bit of some of Makavejev's
films. Especially the food-orgy at the end. Echoes of Sweet Movie. I saw
a print here in NYC at Anthology Film Archives. And it was a really nice
one, too. Frankly, its a hell of a lot more fun than Celine & Julie Go
Boating. The wacky psychedelic imagery is a big plus too. Lots of color
separations, etc.
Brian Frye
-------------------------------------------------
Brian L. Frye
Prince Street Station
P.O. Box 253
New York, NY 10012
_________________________________________________________________
Check out the great features of the new MSN 9 Dial-up, with the MSN Dial-up
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7317
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- Maxime Renaudin wrote:
When the few
> shot/revere shots are dull
> and lifeless, the entire world pours in the unity of
> these frozen
> shots where burning bodies participate in a ceremony
> of death and
> desire which unfailingly shows the miracle of
> incarnation.
"Unfailingly"?
This shot
> of the bloodstained male sex is precious, not
> because of its own
> strength and beauty, but because it is the rare
> expression of the
> inextricable faces of life and death of our
> sexuality. I'm still
> hearing the trembling laughs of the audience; I know
> these laughs
> were only the expression of the uneasiness in front
> of the revealed
> truth.
>
There is no "revealed truth" in cinema. There's often
a search for "truth" which invariably ends in either
equivocation (Bresson) or mysticism (Dreyer).
The "true" is like the "real" -- ideological to its
core.
__________________________________
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7318
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:51am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- David Ehrenstein wrote:
> There is no "revealed truth" in cinema. There's often
> a search for "truth" which invariably ends in either
> equivocation (Bresson) or mysticism (Dreyer).
> The "true" is like the "real" -- ideological to its
> core.
Maybe. It may be I tend to identify the search for truth and its
very aim. Anyway, the word is the only one I've got to express my
fascination. And I believe it is a way to express the so-called
ontological ambition of cinema. Show the things as they are.
If we can't trust those words, where do we stand? and why are we
here talking about what can't be said?
What is equivocation?
7319
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:50am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
I was just wondering if anyone has had the chance to see The Dreamers
yet, the new Bertolucci film? I've studied Bertolucci quite a bit, and
was going to see it this weekend, but I thought I'd get some reactions,
just out of curiosity.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Frye [mailto:brianlfrye@h...]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:28 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
Daisies is indeed excellent. Reminded me a bit of some of Makavejev's
films. Especially the food-orgy at the end. Echoes of Sweet Movie. I
saw
a print here in NYC at Anthology Film Archives. And it was a really
nice
one, too. Frankly, its a hell of a lot more fun than Celine & Julie Go
Boating. The wacky psychedelic imagery is a big plus too. Lots of
color
separations, etc.
Brian Frye
-------------------------------------------------
Brian L. Frye
Prince Street Station
P.O. Box 253
New York, NY 10012
_________________________________________________________________
Check out the great features of the new MSN 9 Dial-up, with the MSN
Dial-up
Accelerator. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
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7320
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:05am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
I should not have denied my previous comments. I believe in
revelation...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin"
wrote:
> --- David Ehrenstein wrote:
> > There is no "revealed truth" in cinema. There's often
> > a search for "truth" which invariably ends in either
> > equivocation (Bresson) or mysticism (Dreyer).
> > The "true" is like the "real" -- ideological to its
> > core.
>
> Maybe. It may be I tend to identify the search for truth and its
> very aim. Anyway, the word is the only one I've got to express my
> fascination. And I believe it is a way to express the so-called
> ontological ambition of cinema. Show the things as they are.
> If we can't trust those words, where do we stand? and why are we
> here talking about what can't be said?
>
> What is equivocation?
7321
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:11am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- Maxime Renaudin wrote:
why are we
> here talking about what can't be said?
>
Ah, the Eternal Cinematic Questions!
__________________________________
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7322
From:
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 8:13pm
Subject: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
A R Ervolino wrote:
>I was just wondering if anyone has had the chance to see The Dreamers
>yet, the new Bertolucci film?
I think it's one of the year's best films. As a work of cinema, it's pretty
well impeccable. The way Bertolucci incorporates footage of old films (which
the characters are immersed in) by matching the actors' movements and the
camera shots is stunning; a sequence which excerpts the suicide scene from
Bresson's "Mouchette" is particularly amazing, as is the one which excerpts the run
through the Louvre in Godard's "Band of Outsiders." Bertolucci is obviously
looking back on his youth, but not with a lot of distance; he gets as wrapped up
in the spirit of the times as his characters. It's a very interesting
combination of an old man's film and a young man's film.
I wasn't entirely happy with the films Bertolucci made after "The Last
Emperor," but on the basis of "Besieged" (which is a masterpiece, I think) and "The
Dreamers," the man is back in business.
I'd be curious to hear from other group members who've seen it. Anyone with
me that an early crane shot (maybe the second, third [?] shot in the film)
recalls the first shot in "Last Tango in Paris"?
Peter
7323
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:13am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone has had the chance to
> see The Dreamers
> yet, the new Bertolucci film? I've studied
> Bertolucci quite a bit, and
> was going to see it this weekend, but I thought I'd
> get some reactions,
> just out of curiosity.
>
I've seen it and I quite liked it. What Bertolucci
have you studied? "Partner" I hope. How old are you? I
was the same age as the film's characters in 1968.
__________________________________
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7324
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- David Ehrenstein wrote:
> --- Maxime Renaudin wrote:
> >why are we here talking about what can't be said?
>
> Ah, the Eternal Cinematic Questions!
Mourlet wrote someting about the inacessible nature of the aim of
any critic, condemned to demonstrate what cannot be
demonstrated....
7325
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:37am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
I was a student at University of Iowa and they had a class on
Bertolucci, it was my first look at Cinema as an Art Form. The man blew
me away! I have studied most his films in great detail, reading
articles by people such as Kolker, and also books of Interviews of
Bertolucci. The major crime, I feel, is that the greatest of his works
(Novecent0, the conformist, Spider Strategium, and even Tragedy of a
Rediculous Man) have not been released on DVD, to my knowledge, in any
country! Movies like 1900 and the Conformist are major pieces of
cinematic art, and it seems people have glassed over them and ignored
them, which, to me, is simply not right.
To answer your other question, I'm 22 years old, and have studied
only the arts for the last 4 years. I have read so much Eisenstein and
Bazin it almost seems ridiculous, as well as many other Philosophers of
film. I feel, though, being in film school they teach film as film, not
as a mixture of the arts. People have forgotten that film is art, and
they have structured it and made it into a nicely compact package. I
spent the last year at Brooks Institute of Film making, doing some
interesting work in Hollywood, and it was the most horrible experience.
Very few people knew who people such as Bertolucci, or ever Godard,
were, let alone look up to them for inspiration. I have now come to the
East Coast (Philadelphia, though I'm in NYC about every weekend),
looking for some way to understand myself and life better through film,
but even here it is not easy. Students are ignorant. They want to be
rich and famous, they don't care about the art. It's a frustrating
situation, and it becomes even harder when all you want to do is get
people to look at things in a different way, to let them know there's
life outside of reality television and action films, only to come out
time after time just more frustrated with the world. But I try as hard
as I can . sorry this went a little long, got caught up in the moment .
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:14 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [a_film_by] Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> I was just wondering if anyone has had the chance to
> see The Dreamers
> yet, the new Bertolucci film? I've studied
> Bertolucci quite a bit, and
> was going to see it this weekend, but I thought I'd
> get some reactions,
> just out of curiosity.
>
I've seen it and I quite liked it. What Bertolucci
have you studied? "Partner" I hope. How old are you? I
was the same age as the film's characters in 1968.
__________________________________
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7326
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:47am
Subject: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
Peter T:
>
> I'd be curious to hear from other group members who've seen it.
Anyone with
> me that an early crane shot (maybe the second, third [?] shot in
the film)
> recalls the first shot in "Last Tango in Paris"?
>
That's a good point. The crane-in on an actor is a Bertolucci
staple, and usually occurs when he's introducing characters in a new
setting (i.e., early on in a film). A similar one occurs in THE
SHELTERING SKY as Debra Winger, Campbell Scott, and John Malkovich
touch ground at the beginning. I certainly like the symmetry of THE
DREAMERS and LAST TANGO having similar openings. But they're very
different films, and their protagonists begin their journeys at
extremely different, almost opposite, points. So it might not mean
all that much other than just a wink of sorts.
-Bilge
7327
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:18am
Subject: RE: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
Since you bring up staple Bertolucci shots I thought I'd bring up the
Dance Sequence which is in each of his films. It's interesting to note
who dances with who in each of his films. For a person watching a
Bertolucci film for the first time it is nothing more than just a simple
dance, but to one who knows Bertolucci and how he uses the dance, it
tells so much about what's going on in the film. Bertolucci had a lot
of issues growing up, and through a great deal of psycho-analysis he
discovered an Oedipus Complex. This Complex is seen in many of his
films as well, even something like Last Tango in Paris where Paul's
father is never seen. If you remember, Paul never wanted to use names
inside of the apartment, it's the only remnants of his father. One can
move away, but you always have your father's name. It was a way of
finally killing his father, and falling in love with a mother figure.
It was freedom. The characters in Bertolucci's films are very deep and
are made so much deeper when one looks at Bertolucci himself. This can
be said about any artist though, really. Take Duchamp's "Nude
Descending a Stair" . if you look at the painting you can enjoy it for
what it is, but knowing that it was made in a direct correlation to
motion picture, it can give the art a new meaning.
-----Original Message-----
From: ebiri@a... [mailto:ebiri@a...]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:48 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
Peter T:
>
> I'd be curious to hear from other group members who've seen it.
Anyone with
> me that an early crane shot (maybe the second, third [?] shot in
the film)
> recalls the first shot in "Last Tango in Paris"?
>
That's a good point. The crane-in on an actor is a Bertolucci
staple, and usually occurs when he's introducing characters in a new
setting (i.e., early on in a film). A similar one occurs in THE
SHELTERING SKY as Debra Winger, Campbell Scott, and John Malkovich
touch ground at the beginning. I certainly like the symmetry of THE
DREAMERS and LAST TANGO having similar openings. But they're very
different films, and their protagonists begin their journeys at
extremely different, almost opposite, points. So it might not mean
all that much other than just a wink of sorts.
-Bilge
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7328
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:26am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> To answer your other question, I'm 22 years old,
> and have studied
> only the arts for the last 4 years. I have read so
> much Eisenstein and
> Bazin it almost seems ridiculous, as well as many
> other Philosophers of
> film. I feel, though, being in film school they
> teach film as film, not
> as a mixture of the arts. People have forgotten
> that film is art, and
> they have structured it and made it into a nicely
> compact package.
>
>
You sound like one of the characters in the film.
Do try and see "Partner" whenever it surfaces. "Before
the Revolution" was very important to me when I fiurst
saw it in 1964. I've seen it over 50 times in a
theater. It's less a film than an event in my life.
Hope you get to meet Bertolucci. He's a remarkably
sweet guy.
Of his more recent works I find "The Sheltering Sky"
is the most impressive.
__________________________________
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7329
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:30am
Subject: RE: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> Since you bring up staple Bertolucci shots I thought
> I'd bring up the
> Dance Sequence which is in each of his films. It's
> interesting to note
> who dances with who in each of his films. For a
> person watching a
> Bertolucci film for the first time it is nothing
> more than just a simple
> dance, but to one who knows Bertolucci and how he
> uses the dance, it
> tells so much about what's going on in the film.
> Bertolucci had a lot
> of issues growing up, and through a great deal of
> psycho-analysis he
> discovered an Oedipus Complex. This Complex is seen
> in many of his
> films as well, even something like Last Tango in
> Paris where Paul's
> father is never seen.
Bertoilucci's father, Atillo, was a well-regarded
poet. But just as important in his life was the father
figure of Pasolini, and the brother figure of Godard.
He both embraced and revolted against the two of them.
__________________________________
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7330
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:55am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
Yes, both Partner and Before the Revolution are amazing films, I
especially always keep close the scene in Before The Revolution where
the two main characters are riding the bicycle, falling down as they
ride. I would love to some day meet Bertolucci, though I'm so young and
seem trapped in a place where it's so hard to find any opportunity that
it just seems something so distant, where it will be too late to meet
him when I finally get the chance. A sad thing really, that the hero's
of Cinema that I look up to, Bertolucci, Godard, Herzog, and others,
just seem much too distant to meet. I'm not even sure if Bertolucci
still resides in Italy, my Grandfather was from Naples and every few
years I try to make it there. But maybe he'll make a trip to New York
someday where I may be able to somehow squeeze my way in and say but a
few words to him.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:26 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [a_film_by] Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> To answer your other question, I'm 22 years old,
> and have studied
> only the arts for the last 4 years. I have read so
> much Eisenstein and
> Bazin it almost seems ridiculous, as well as many
> other Philosophers of
> film. I feel, though, being in film school they
> teach film as film, not
> as a mixture of the arts. People have forgotten
> that film is art, and
> they have structured it and made it into a nicely
> compact package.
>
>
You sound like one of the characters in the film.
Do try and see "Partner" whenever it surfaces. "Before
the Revolution" was very important to me when I fiurst
saw it in 1964. I've seen it over 50 times in a
theater. It's less a film than an event in my life.
Hope you get to meet Bertolucci. He's a remarkably
sweet guy.
Of his more recent works I find "The Sheltering Sky"
is the most impressive.
__________________________________
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7331
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:56am
Subject: RE: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
I originally went to school to be a poet, it's an art form that I hold
very close. It was Bertolucci's poetic style that really helped me to
get more into film and understand more as an art form. Also, studying
the German Expressionist era I saw film makers such as Murnau use film
as a poetic format, and I've help such things very close ever since.
I remember reading that when Bertolucci was making some of his
earlier films he would only speak French on the sets, saying that the
French were the new fathers of Cinema. It's always interesting to see
his similarities and differences between the French New Wave, and how he
really developed his style between that and the Italian Neo-Realist
style. The man is just brilliant and I'm really glad that I can
actually talk about him in a setting where people aren't clueless!
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:31 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [a_film_by] Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> Since you bring up staple Bertolucci shots I thought
> I'd bring up the
> Dance Sequence which is in each of his films. It's
> interesting to note
> who dances with who in each of his films. For a
> person watching a
> Bertolucci film for the first time it is nothing
> more than just a simple
> dance, but to one who knows Bertolucci and how he
> uses the dance, it
> tells so much about what's going on in the film.
> Bertolucci had a lot
> of issues growing up, and through a great deal of
> psycho-analysis he
> discovered an Oedipus Complex. This Complex is seen
> in many of his
> films as well, even something like Last Tango in
> Paris where Paul's
> father is never seen.
Bertoilucci's father, Atillo, was a well-regarded
poet. But just as important in his life was the father
figure of Pasolini, and the brother figure of Godard.
He both embraced and revolted against the two of them.
__________________________________
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7332
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:22am
Subject: RE: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
> Yes, both Partner and Before the Revolution are
> amazing films, I
> especially always keep close the scene in Before The
> Revolution where
> the two main characters are riding the bicycle,
> falling down as they
> ride.
Allen Midgette, who played Agostino -- the friend of
the hero who dies early on in the film -- appears in
almost all of Bertolucci's films in roles both large
("La Commare Secca") and small (a walk-on in "The
Spider's Strategem.") Midgette (an American, by the
way), went on to considerable infamy in the 1960's
when he appeared at speaking engagement as Andy Warhol
-- Andy having deliberately sent Allen in his stead.
He has quite a large role in Warhol's 25 hour-long
super-magnum opus ****(Four Stars). He also appears in
Godard & Gorin's "Wind From the East."
I'm not sure if he's still around.
__________________________________
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7333
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> This shot
> > of the bloodstained male sex is precious, not
> > because of its own
> > strength and beauty, but because it is the rare
> > expression of the
> > inextricable faces of life and death of our
> > sexuality. I'm still
> > hearing the trembling laughs of the audience; I know
> > these laughs
> > were only the expression of the uneasiness in front
> > of the revealed
> > truth.
> >
>
> There is no "revealed truth" in cinema. There's often
> a search for "truth" which invariably ends in either
> equivocation (Bresson) or mysticism (Dreyer).
>
> The "true" is like the "real" -- ideological to its
> core.
David,
It seems that there only are few perfect things in the world for you:
Bresson, Dreyer... and your Homosexuality: It is so perfect, that it
is not only a standard by which you measure others approach and view
on sexuality, but its by your Homosexuality artists fail or succeeds.
You even refuse to accept Breillat's creation of an index, by
suggesting your penis is so powerfull, that it makes her metaphores
pointless.
For instant:
"The very notion that a gay man would be "disgusted" by a woman is
disgusting."
Why is that so? Is homosexuality such a beautiful thing, that all
women by automated process accept it, even adore it. What you are
doing here is censoring another persons thoughts, more so, you degrade
them as stupidity, because you refuse Homosexuality to be attacked by
anyone. From where I am, it looks like you fear strong women alot.
Im sorry for having to attack your sexuality, but you put it out there
on the limp and used it as an argument.
Maxime wrote...
"This shot of the bloodstained male sex is precious, not because of
its own strength and beauty, but because it is the rare expression of
the inextricable faces of life and death of our sexuality."
That is very true. It reminds me of a similar shot in "Romance X",
where Breillat cuts from the cum shot on her belly to the jelly for
ultra sound shot on her belly. The link between fluids and sexuality.
But the sheer visual of the mestruation blood gush on his penis is
something of the most beautiful I have seen for a long time.
Henrik
7334
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:09am
Subject: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I think it's one of the year's best films. As a work of cinema,
it's pretty
> well impeccable. The way Bertolucci incorporates footage of old
films (which
> the characters are immersed in) by matching the actors' movements
and the
> camera shots is stunning; a sequence which excerpts the suicide
scene from
> Bresson's "Mouchette" is particularly amazing
How is this amazing? I thought this was numbingly literal--and botched
the whole ending of MOUCHETTE regardless. MOUCHETTE attempts suicide
twice, then final succeeds--here we have (I think) the middle attempt
cut out.
I'm not with Hoberman entirely on this, but can even defenders of this
film not conceed that it is exceedingly dumb movie?
Patrick
(I, too, an American was 20 when I first went to the Cinematheque
francaise)
7335
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:16am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
>
> It seems that there only are few perfect things in
> the world for you:
> Bresson, Dreyer...
Uh no. My favorite (as you should well know by now) is
Patrice Chereau.
and your Homosexuality: It is so
> perfect, that it
> is not only a standard by which you measure others
> approach and view
> on sexuality, but its by your Homosexuality artists
> fail or succeeds.
What do you mean by MY Homosexuality? I didn't invent
it Hendrik.
(Though I'm thinking of acquiring world rights --
including the Scandanavian,as Billy Wilder -- a noted
heterosexual -- would say.)
> You even refuse to accept Breillat's creation of an
> index, by
> suggesting your penis is so powerfull, that it makes
> her metaphores
> pointless.
>
HREF="Ya">http://www.cockybastard.com/bm/99/gallery/jimpenis.jpg">Ya
Think?
> For instant:
>
> "The very notion that a gay man would be "disgusted"
> by a woman is
> disgusting."
>
> Why is that so? Is homosexuality such a beautiful
> thing, that all
> women by automated process accept it, even adore it.
No. It's such a beautiful thing that gay men have no
interest in women. This lack of interest is not to be
confused with hatred and loathing -- or disgust.
> What you are
> doing here is censoring another persons thoughts,
> more so, you degrade
> them as stupidity, because you refuse Homosexuality
> to be attacked by
> anyone.
You mean people have the RIGHT to attack my sexuality,
and that of countless other men?
From where I am, it looks like you fear
> strong women alot.
>
Because I defend myself I "fear"? LOL!
> Im sorry for having to attack your sexuality, but
> you put it out there
> on the limp and used it as an argument.
>
> Maxime wrote...
>
> "This shot of the bloodstained male sex is precious,
> not because of
> its own strength and beauty, but because it is the
> rare expression of
> the inextricable faces of life and death of our
> sexuality."
>
> That is very true. It reminds me of a similar shot
> in "Romance X",
> where Breillat cuts from the cum shot on her belly
> to the jelly for
> ultra sound shot on her belly. The link between
> fluids and sexuality.
>
> But the sheer visual of the mestruation blood gush
> on his penis is
> something of the most beautiful I have seen for a
> long time.
>
Chaque a son goo!
__________________________________
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7336
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
--- Patrick Ciccone wrote:
>
> I'm not with Hoberman entirely on this, but can even
> defenders of this
> film not conceed that it is exceedingly dumb movie?
>
No. Not at all.
__________________________________
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7337
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:31am
Subject: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
David E:
>
> Allen Midgette, who played Agostino -- the friend of
> the hero who dies early on in the film -- appears in
> almost all of Bertolucci's films in roles both large
> ("La Commare Secca") and small (a walk-on in "The
> Spider's Strategem.")
As far as I know, these three you mention, along with 1900, are the
only Bertolucci films Midgette has ever appeared in, and that's not
really even close to all of his films. I guess I wouldn't be
surprised to find him in the background of some scene in PARTNER,
but I'm pretty sure he's not there. Am I missing something?
>
> I'm not sure if he's still around.
>
The last I heard of him is that he played Andy Warhol himself in an
Italian movie in 1991, which I haven't seen. (Don't even know if it
ever came out.)
I thought his appearances in THE GRIM REAPER and REVOLUTION were
quite touching; the man certainly had presence.
-Bilge
7338
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 0:31am
Subject: Re: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers
Patrick Ciccone wrote:
>> a sequence which excerpts the suicide
>> Bresson's "Mouchette" is particularly amazing
>
>How is this amazing? I thought this was numbingly literal--and botched
>the whole ending of MOUCHETTE regardless.
It may well be literal, but I thought that the way Bertolucci so precisely
matched the actors' movements and shots of the film being excerpted with the
actors' movements and shots in the film proper was rather thrilling from an
aesthetic point-of-view. Of course, your point that the actual ending of
"Mouchette" is misrepresented is perfectly legitimate; but I felt that the meaning of
the movie clips in "The Dreamers" was to viscerally represent the characters'
intoxication with cinema - not necessarily to fairly represent the intentions
and meanings of the movies being excerpted.
To Bilge, you're completely right that the similar crane shots which open
both "Last Tango in Paris" and "The Dreamers" don't necessarily indicate any
major (or minor) similarities between the two films. I'm almost tempted to argue
that Bertolucci was conscious of the fact that he was referencing one of his
own films and that the shot is part and parcel of the film's ongoing
referencing of other films.
Peter
7339
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- ebiri@a... wrote:
> As far as I know, these three you mention, along
> with 1900, are the
> only Bertolucci films Midgette has ever appeared in,
> and that's not
> really even close to all of his films. I guess I
> wouldn't be
> surprised to find him in the background of some
> scene in PARTNER,
> but I'm pretty sure he's not there. Am I missing
> something?
>
Oh he's in there. He's kind of a fetish with
Bertolucci. I believe they had an affair.
>
>
7340
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:45am
Subject: Re: Recent Films Seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall (NOT!)
David wrote: Oh he's in there. He's kind of a fetish with
Bertolucci. I believe they had an affair.
Is Bertolucci gay?
7341
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:54am
Subject: Re: Bertolucci's The Dreamers and Innocent Blood
Patrick wrote: MOUCHETTE attempts suicide twice, then finally
succeeds--here we have (I think) the middle attempt cut out.
I haven't seen the Bertolucci yet - I'm still struggling to come to
terms with Stuck On You - but a similar thing happens in John
Landis's Innocent Blood: When something horrible is about to happen
while Strangers on a Train is playing on tv, the sequence from
Strangers is abbreviated for the needs of the action.
On the other hand, a cutaway does show Hitchcock's cameo, and in the
end credits he's listed: "Man with Double Bass....Alfred Hitchcock."
Also listed, because also seen in clips, are Bela Lugosi as The Count
and Peter Cushing as Van Helsing. When I was writing an article on
the end credits of Innocent Blood I called Landis's office and asked
(through an assistant) why Hitchcock, Lugosi and Cushing were listed
in the end credits as if they were characters in the film. The answer
that was transmitted back: "Because they ARE characters in the film."
7342
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:26am
Subject: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
David Ehrenstein:
>> Am I missing
> > something?
> >
> Oh he's in there. He's kind of a fetish with
> Bertolucci.
Would you like to tell us where? I've seen most of Bertolucci's
films over 60-70 times, so I'm a bit surprised to hear this. Like,
for example, is he in THE CONFORMIST? LUNA (which has a number of
faces from BB's past showing up, actually)? TRAGEDY OF A RIDICULOUS
MAN?
I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything; I'm just really
really curious.
-Bilge
7343
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:35am
Subject: LILYA-4_EVER // THE KID
I still remembet the L4E film I saw in PSIFF 2002. It reminded be of
Nights of Cabirini and I was moved by the different outcomes for the
women in the differnt time periods. Contemporary times are much
more difficult on the psyche; previous time, more different on the
daily living.
I thought the bathroom scenes and grotesque make-up
scene quite moving, but I did not like the return of the young
male friend in the angle wings.
I saw Chaplin's THE KID recently an there is an angle with winrgs dream
scene and I wonder of the Lukas Moodysson angle wing scene is a
homage.
http://www.bfi.org.uk/showing/nft/events/chaplin/eisenstein.html
has intestesting brief comments by Eisentein about he 'childhood
perspective" of Chaplin. I know Chaplin is often thought of as a lesser
talent that Keaton and LAUREL AND HARDY (from previous comments)
but it is intesting that Eisenstien would write such a touching commentary.
Additionally, Abbas Kiarostama continued to a 30 discussion of THE KID.
Apparently some of the best thought THE KID quite, quite good.
7344
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:36am
Subject: Rag and Bone (James D. Parriott)
James D. Parriott is a prolific American television scriptwriter - and
sometimes director. He is mainly associated with fantasy and science fiction films.
His best work as a writer-director are two pilots for science fiction TV
series he produced: "Voyagers!" (1982) and "Misfits of Science" (1985). Recently,
the Encore TV chanel has been showing an obscure work of his, "Rag and Bone"
(1998). This is a ghost story, set in New Orleans, about a cop who begins to see
ghosts. It is a moody, gentle, and highly atmospheric work, with beautiful
color design and photography. It is recommended to any a_film_by members who
come across it.
Parriott has been making films for almost thirty years. He is very talented;
his films have been seen and enjoyed by millions of people; he is a
consistently personal filmmaker; his works are endearing. Yet he seems to be unknown to
the cinephile community. This is because he works in (gasp!) televsion. People
today seem to be sure they have nothing to learn artistically from the last
50 years of television. Not so...
The IMDB credits the directiuon of "Rag and Bone" to another director. The
film itself (seen twice here) plainly states Parriott is both the scriptwriter
and director. Everyone agrees that the story is a collaboration between
Parriott and New Orleans supernatural writer Anne Rice.
"Rag and Bone" is consistent with the liberal social commentary that runs
through Parriott's cinema.
"Rag and Bone", like the rest of Parriott's work, does not fit in comfortably
into any of the categories of contemporary cinema. The ghost story has no
horror aspects; there are no gross out effects, and neither the hero nor the
audience is put through any sort of horror wringer. Instead, the film emphasizes
atmosphere and visual beauty.
There is occasional violence in the film, but this too is very mild by the
standards of today's action films. "Rag and Bone" is definitely NOT an action
movie. Instead, the violence level reminds one of an 1980's TV cop show - say an
episode of Riptide or Remington Steele.
"Rag and Bone" is full of small, circular camera movements. Some of these are
360 circlings around the characters. Today's steadicam technology makes such
camera movements technically feasible.
If you combined an 80's cop show with an old-fashioned ghost story, and had
the whole thing directed by Antonioni, you might wind up with a work somewhat
like "Rag and Bone".
Mike Grost
7345
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Recent Films Seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall (NOT!)
Bi.
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> David wrote: Oh he's in there. He's kind of a fetish
> with
> Bertolucci. I believe they had an affair.
>
> Is Bertolucci gay?
>
>
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7346
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Recent Films seen: Daisies, The Glass Wall
--- ebiri@a... wrote:
>
> Would you like to tell us where? I've seen most of
> Bertolucci's
> films over 60-70 times, so I'm a bit surprised to
> hear this. Like,
> for example, is he in THE CONFORMIST? LUNA (which
> has a number of
> faces from BB's past showing up, actually)? TRAGEDY
> OF A RIDICULOUS
> MAN?
>
> I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything;
> I'm just really
> really curious.
>
He's almost always there. Sometimes just as an "extra"
flashing by with no lines at all. There are far fewer
Bertolucci films without him then there are with him.
In that regard I'm quite surprised that he's not in
"The Dreamers" as the time and place of that film
(mythically speaking) are most "Midgettian."
__________________________________
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7347
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:53am
Subject: Re: Re: Breillat and Anatomy
In a message dated 2/9/04 11:23:49 PM, henrik_sylow@h... writes:
> Im sorry for having to attack your sexuality, but you put it out there
> on the limp and used it as an argument.
>
I have no choice but to put my Homosexuality (why the caps, though?) out
there on the limp, as you say. It's the wrist thing - I could never keep it
straight. But Henrik, assuming you're Heterosexual (how does that look in caps?), is
your critical apparatus never inflected by your Heterosexuality? Even more to
the point, would you recognize it as such if (I'd say when) it was?
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7348
From: Jess Amortell
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:00pm
Subject: Midgette
> I'm quite surprised that he's not in
> "The Dreamers" as the time and place of that film
> (mythically speaking) are most "Midgettian."
He's in Woodstock apparently (not the movie): http://www.warholstars.org/andywarhol/interview/midgette/allen.html
7349
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:38pm
Subject: Re: Midgette
Wow, thanks -- that's good to know. The Montgomery
Clift connection is absolutely fascinating. Clift was
around the dges of the facotry a good deal as he was a
very close friend of Jack Larson's.
--- Jess Amortell wrote:
> > I'm quite surprised that he's not in
> > "The Dreamers" as the time and place of that film
> > (mythically speaking) are most "Midgettian."
>
>
> He's in Woodstock apparently (not the movie):
>
http://www.warholstars.org/andywarhol/interview/midgette/allen.html
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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7350
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:44pm
Subject: The Pied Piper (Irving Pichel, 1942)
This is, quite honestly, one of the most alarming movies ever made.
I mean, I've seen a lot of
movies in my time - a lot of bad ones, a lot of good ones, a lot of
great ones, and a lot of filler.
But THE PIED PIPER stands above them all. A scarce few approach it.
Fewer can be said to touch it.
It must be...the worst, most nauseatingly earnest, saccharine, phony,
and squirm-inducing movie
I have ever seen. It collected three Academy Award nominations:
Picture, Actor (Montey
Woolley), and Black & White Cinematography.
Everything about this movie is spot-off. Unfailingly precise in its
wretchedness, right down to
the running gag about "is Rochester a state in the U.S. or just a
city" that goes from (a) small talk
that goes toward illustrating character traits to (b) a device by
which lead and supporting actor
previously at odds form a bond, to (c) coincidental subject matter
that just happens to appear in
the antagonist's dialogue to (d) warm words exchanged in the
next-to-final scene.
Further awe-inspiring awfulness: Montey Woolley, whom we enjoyed in
the "surprise, it's
actually pretty good" epic of 1944, SINCE YOU WENT AWAY as well as
THE MAN WHO
CAME TO DINNER, among others, is the *prototypical*
grouch-who-finds-it-in-his-heart-to-[fill
in the blanks]-and-save-the day. The degree of leering demonstrated
by the Nazi commandant
(Otto Preminger) exceeds anything SCTV would ever invent for a joke.
Woolley delivers
clumsily-written speeches to paint America as a nation that does not
discriminate against anyone
for their race, creed, or religion - "Not even a German!"
****spoiler****
Best of all: surprise, surprise, the Nazi commandant, impressed and
moved by Woolley's
devotion, asks him to shepherd his neice, half-Aryan half-Jewish, and
to deliver her to a relative
in America. Even better than that: when the boat is about to leave,
Woolley advises the
commandant to tell his neice not to do the Nazi salute, nor shout
"Heil Hitler!" The commandant
does so, and the girl says, in German (with the salute): "No more
Heil Hitler?" He nods yes.
She cries out, overjoyed, "Good!"
I have not mentioned Anne Baxter's piss-poor impersonation of a
young, rural French girl, or the
nonstop wriggling of Woolley's absurd eyebrows, or the way the film
squanders its best
moment, when it comes close to depicting (however indirectly, given
1940s Hollywood
conventions of showing carnage and violence) the horror of a German
air attack on a civilian
caravan, the kind I've just finished reading about in Ian McEwan's
magnificent novel,
ATONEMENT.
It goes without saying that Pichel directs with cold, bland
efficiency of a presently forgotten
WWII-era propaganda piece; it registers as worthless on the Fred
Camper checklist. (Although,
to be fair, I saw it on video.) I wasn't sure whether I'd avoid
TOMORROW IS FOREVER
when it will play as part of the upcoming Film Forum Orson Welles
retrospective: now I know
for certain.
Has anyone seen this? I'm sure that another viewer will like it more
than I; one would have to,
since I find it inconceivable that anyone could like it less.
7351
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:07pm
Subject: Re: The Pied Piper (Irving Pichel, 1942)
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
I wasn't sure
> whether I'd avoid
> TOMORROW IS FOREVER
> when it will play as part of the upcoming Film Forum
> Orson Welles
> retrospective: now I know
> for certain.
>
"Tomorrow is Forever" is the screen debut of natalie
Wood. At the audition little Natasha's (classic stage)
mother gave her the immortal direction "Make Mr.
Pichel love you!"
And she did.
__________________________________
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7352
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Irving Pichel, Henry Koster
Have only seen a few Pichel films. Best: "And Now Tomorrow" (1944), a
soap-opera romance with poor doctor Alan Ladd and rich woman Loretta Young. Script
co-written by Raymond Chandler; very different from his mystery fiction. This
film is sure no classic, but it has its moments. Its characters might have
influenced the pairing of poor doctor James Mason and rich woman Barbara Bel Geddes
in the superior "Caught" (Max Ophuls, 1949).
"Something in the Wind" (1947) is a low-brow musical, which attempts to get
Deanna Durbin to sing swing and pop music, and give her a more hip image,
daddy-o! It's hard to resist a movie with Durbin, Donald O'Connor and opera tenor
Jan Peerce. One has to remember that I LOVE musicals, and really enjoy watching
them. This one is from the bottom of the Hollywood barrel. I enjoyed it, in
moderation, and just barely. My favorite Durbin musical is "It Started With
Eve" (Henry Koster). This is a much better movie. It is not Minnelli, but it is a
sweet film that one suspects most people would find a pleasure. I also
enjoyed Koster's drama "Good Morning Miss Dove" (1955) when I saw it as a kid. This
film has disappeared...
My impression of Pichel is that he is a really minor director.
There are so many great underappreciated talents out there, on whom our time
could better be spent.
Mike Grost
7353
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:18pm
Subject: Re: LILYA-4_EVER // THE KID
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I still remembet the L4E film I saw in PSIFF 2002. It reminded be
of
> Nights of Cabirini and I was moved by the different outcomes for
the
> women in the differnt time periods. Contemporary times are much
> more difficult on the psyche; previous time, more different on the
> daily living.
>
What is a "L4E film"? What is PSIFF 2002? What is "Nights of
Cabirini"? Please? pardon my ignorance.
7354
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:20pm
Subject: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamlin (Jacques Demy)
I never saw the Pichel, which sound My-Tee Strange, but Demy's
English-language 70s production with Donovan is, as usual, a
towering masterpiece - one which captures the eeriness of
Browning's not-at-all saccharine poem. Following up on his
analysis of Peau d'Ane, Serge D. read this as Demy's most
explicit symbolization of a cloacal theory of where babies come
from, thereby throwing into relief all the images of "clean"
contained in "dirty" and vice versa (most memorably, the white
wedding cake full of rats).
SPOILER: In one of Demy's grimmest conclusions, the Pied
Piper makes no difference whatsoever to the dire doings in the
horrible little town of Hamlin, where all the unhappy endings
(including the burning of a kindly scientistcome off on schedule
despite his passage. The film played one week on upper B'way
when I was still living in NY and vanished. Cinefile has a tape of
it, but I don't know if it's accessible elsewhere.
In the meantime Demy's late masterpiece A Room In Town is
rigorously invisible in any medium in the English-speaking
world. With Lola, Umbrellas and Demoiselles, it is among the
very greatest films of all time. It'd be nice to see it every now and
then, wouldn't it?
7355
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:42pm
Subject: L4E Decoded! (JPC Alert!)
L4E: LILYA-4_EVER (Lucas Moodysson): Swedish film about a dreadfully
exploited woman who is victimised by the white slave trade in Eastern Europe
(according to reviews read). I didn't like the only Moodysson film seen here,
"Together", about a really dour left-wing Swedish commune. The scene where the
communards deconstruct "Pippi Longstocking" as a work of capitalist propoganda is
memorablely grating (and probably meant as satire, to be fair)
PSIFF 2002: Palm Springs International Film Festival 2002..
Nights of Cabirini: Probably typo for "Nights of Cabiria" (Fellini), also a
film about a deluded and pathetically exploited woman. I've seen this, and I'm
sure JPC has too (and probably written about it!)
I used my Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Ring.
Mike Grost
PS "Enigma" (Michael Apted, 2001), is a really intelligent thriller about
secret codes!
7356
From:
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:17pm
Subject: Engima, Fleischer Request
Mike Grost wrote:
>PS "Enigma" (Michael Apted, 2001), is a really intelligent thriller about
>secret codes!
I really liked this film too. Apted had never seemed that interesting to me
before, but this was a film with solid, old fashioned storytelling values: a
genuinely involving plot, interesting characters, and so on. It's not visually
accomplished, exactly, but the 'Scope frame is utilized with more care and
intelligence than usual. I'd recommend it.
Completely unrelated request: I'm gearing up to write something on Richard
Fleischer. I know that Movie magazine was one of Fleischer's long-standing
supporters. Can anyone recommend specific pieces on him from Movie? And does
anyone know where back issues of the magazine can be found?
Thanks,
Peter
7357
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 0:42am
Subject: back issues of Movie/Pied Piper
Responding to Peter onlist because this is "for the good of the board"
type general knowledge.
NYU's Bobst Library carries back issues of Film Comment, Positif,
Cahiers, etc. It's there that I found the only article I'm aware of
that discusses Tati's last last last film, the one about the soccer
team. I have to assume they have Movie. You should be able to search
for articles (keywords, etc) through this web page:
http://library.nyu.edu/
If you give me as much information as possible I can go to Bobst and
find the articles, scan them or photocopy them, etc.
Bill, PIED PIPER is actually quite un-strange. If it was strange in
any way, that might make it more attractive, or at least fascinating
in a "bad movie" kind of way. But it's more like a Brad Silberling
directing a Ronald Bass script.
-Jaime
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Mike Grost wrote:
>
> >PS "Enigma" (Michael Apted, 2001), is a really intelligent thriller
about
> >secret codes!
>
> I really liked this film too. Apted had never seemed that
interesting to me
> before, but this was a film with solid, old fashioned storytelling
values: a
> genuinely involving plot, interesting characters, and so on. It's
not visually
> accomplished, exactly, but the 'Scope frame is utilized with more
care and
> intelligence than usual. I'd recommend it.
>
> Completely unrelated request: I'm gearing up to write something on
Richard
> Fleischer. I know that Movie magazine was one of Fleischer's
long-standing
> supporters. Can anyone recommend specific pieces on him from Movie?
And does
> anyone know where back issues of the magazine can be found?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
7358
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 0:53am
Subject: Re: Re: The Pied Piper of Hamlin (Jacques Demy)
--- hotlove666 wrote:
The film played one week on
> upper B'way
> when I was still living in NY and vanished.
That's when I saw it. Most impressive -- especially
for the shot of the rats scurrying out of the weeding
cake.
>
> In the meantime Demy's late masterpiece A Room In
> Town is
> rigorously invisible in any medium in the
> English-speaking
> world. With Lola, Umbrellas and Demoiselles, it is
> among the
> very greatest films of all time. It'd be nice to see
> it every now and
> then, wouldn't it?
>
It would indeed. I treasure the two-record set of the
complete score that I bought in Paris on my first trip
there in '83. Michel Columbier is more famous as an
arranger than a composer, but the score is quite
excellent. He came on board because Jacques and Michel
had a falling out as a result of Jacques' "coming
out." But they patched things up and went on working
together.
"Trois Place Pour le 26th" -- Jacques swan song -- is
very much worth seeing too. A deliberately "minor"
film built around the romantic myth of Yves Montand --
who is played by . . .Yves Montand.
Amazing to see Danielle Darrieux still at it in Ozon's
"8 Women." A true star.
__________________________________
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7359
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 0:56am
Subject: Re: Engima, Fleischer Request
> I really liked this film too. Apted had never seemed that interesting to me
> before
I've liked Apted in the past: not always, but fairly often. When he's
not snowed over by his material, he can give a nice human scale to his
projects. FIRSTBORN and COAL MINER'S DAUGHTER are both worth a look.
> Completely unrelated request: I'm gearing up to write something on Richard
> Fleischer. I know that Movie magazine was one of Fleischer's long-standing
> supporters. Can anyone recommend specific pieces on him from Movie?
I can't, but if you can find Ian Cameron's book ADVENTURE IN THE MOVIES,
there's a short section on Fleischer. Cameron was one of the big four
critics for Movie. - Dan
7360
From: (unknown)
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 0:58am
Subject:
DGA Proposes Possessory Credit Bargain
Message-ID:
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Content-Length: 1020
X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88
From: "Jaime N. Christley"
X-Originating-IP: 162.83.153.141
Subject:
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=103453640
X-Yahoo-Profile: j_christley
From the IMDb - of general interest, perhaps, and they snuck in an
advertisement for our board in the first sentence:
Hollywood's "possessory credit" -- the one reading "a film by ..." --
a longtime sticking point in labor negotiations within the
entertainment industry, is about to be amended. The Directors Guild of
America on Monday said that it would ask that the credit not be
awarded to first-time directors, and that it would discourage the
studios from awarding it to directors with three films or less. If, as
expected, the studios agree to the proposal, the change would mollify
screenwriters who have long held that the possessory credit diminishes
their own contributions. The Writers Guild of America, West, which is
about to open negotiations with the studios on a new contract, had
been expected to raise the issue of possessory credits during
negotiations. WGA President Charles Holland remarked, "We praise this
important step toward a healthier, more beneficial relationship
between our two guilds."
7361
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:07am
Subject: that message
That's mine - I have no idea how that happened. Weird...
-Jaime
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, aUser wrote:
> DGA Proposes Possessory Credit Bargain
> Message-ID:
> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Length: 1020
> X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88
> From: "Jaime N. Christley"
> X-Originating-IP: 162.83.153.141
> Subject:
> X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=103453640
> X-Yahoo-Profile: j_christley
>
> From the IMDb - of general interest, perhaps, and they snuck in an
> advertisement for our board in the first sentence:
>
> Hollywood's "possessory credit" -- the one reading "a film by ..." --
> a longtime sticking point in labor negotiations within the
> entertainment industry, is about to be amended. The Directors Guild of
> America on Monday said that it would ask that the credit not be
> awarded to first-time directors, and that it would discourage the
> studios from awarding it to directors with three films or less. If, as
> expected, the studios agree to the proposal, the change would mollify
> screenwriters who have long held that the possessory credit diminishes
> their own contributions. The Writers Guild of America, West, which is
> about to open negotiations with the studios on a new contract, had
> been expected to raise the issue of possessory credits during
> negotiations. WGA President Charles Holland remarked, "We praise this
> important step toward a healthier, more beneficial relationship
> between our two guilds."
7362
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:20am
Subject: Re: LILYA-4_EVER // THE KID - corrected
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan" wrote:
(sorry for all the errors in the previous post; hopefully this is clearer)
I still remembet LILYA-4-EVER, a film I saw at the Palm Springs International
Film Festival in 2002. It reminded be of Nights of Cabiria and I was moved
by the different outcomes for the women in the different time periods.
Contemporary times are much more difficult on the psyche; previous times,
more difficult on surviving daily life. Additionally interesting is the younger
age of the girl/woman in Lilya-4-EVER.
I thought the bathroom scene (occurs in both films) and the grotesque
make-up scene quite moving, but I did not like the return of the young
male friend in the angel wings. I really disliked the 'break' in the story
when the boy returns after death with angel wings.
However, I saw Chaplin's THE KID recently and there is dream scene with
similar "angel wings." I wonder if the Lukas Moodysson angel
wing scene in LILYA-4-EVER is a homage to Chaplin.
> http://www.bfi.org.uk/showing/nft/events/chaplin/eisenstein.html
has interesting brief comments by Eisentein about the 'childhood
perspective' of Chaplin. I know Chaplin is often thought of as a lesser
talent that Keaton and LAUREL AND HARDY (from previous comments by
board members) but it is intesting that Eisenstien would write such a
touching commentary.
Additionally, Abbas Kiarostama was part of a 30 minute discussion /
documentary which followed the TCM broadcast of THE KID which
he praised and acknowledged for at least some sub-conscious influence.
Apparently some of the best thought THE KID quite, quite good.
I did not see any Chaplin films available on The Criterion lists. Does
anyone know why Criterion has no Chaplin works? Is it because many are
already available?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan" wrote:
> I still remembet the L4E film I saw in PSIFF 2002. It reminded be of
> Nights of Cabirini and I was moved by the different outcomes for the
> women in the differnt time periods. Contemporary times are much
> more difficult on the psyche; previous time, more different on the
> daily living.
>
> I thought the bathroom scenes and grotesque make-up
> scene quite moving, but I did not like the return of the young
> male friend in the angle wings.
>
> I saw Chaplin's THE KID recently an there is an angle with winrgs dream
> scene and I wonder of the Lukas Moodysson angle wing scene is a
> homage.
>
> http://www.bfi.org.uk/showing/nft/events/chaplin/eisenstein.html
>
> has intestesting brief comments by Eisentein about he 'childhood
> perspective" of Chaplin. I know Chaplin is often thought of as a lesser
> talent that Keaton and LAUREL AND HARDY (from previous comments)
> but it is intesting that Eisenstien would write such a touching commentary.
>
>
> Additionally, Abbas Kiarostama continued to a 30 discussion of THE KID.
> Apparently some of the best thought THE KID quite, quite good.
7363
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:43am
Subject: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> has interesting brief comments by Eisentein about the 'childhood
> perspective' of Chaplin. I know Chaplin is often thought of as a
> lesser
> talent that Keaton and LAUREL AND HARDY (from previous comments by
> board members) but it is intesting that Eisenstien would write such a
> touching commentary.
Not from me at least (I don't think I was around when the
Chaplin/Keaton/Laurel and Hardy discussion had been taking place). I
rate all three (four) figures highly, but I place Chaplin at the top.
> Additionally, Abbas Kiarostama was part of a 30 minute discussion /
> documentary which followed the TCM broadcast of THE KID which
> he praised and acknowledged for at least some sub-conscious influence.
This was filmed by MK2 to appear as a supplement to their release of
'The Kid' -- all MK2 editions were licensed to Warner Bros. for WB/MK2
co-release in Great Britain and the United States. Each film is
accompanied by a similar short appreciation by a different filmmaker,
and they've aired occasionally on Turner Classic Movies as stand-alone
pieces usually following the film to which they apply. As Nick Wrigley
writes in the year-end "DVD of the Year" summaries at Masters of Cinema
(http://www.mastersofcinema.org) --
(NOTE: This award is for the PAL R2 set from Europe. It is *not* for
the USA R1 release of this boxset - see below).
The R2 UK set from Warner/MK2 and the French MK2 set are a magnificent
achievement. Unfortunately, the USA R1 set is a lazy PAL > NTSC
transfer with ghosting - *extremely* disappointing.
Back in 2001, the Chaplin estate wisely sought the skills of MK2 in
France (after seeing their superb Truffaut boxset) and asked them to
conjure up a Chaplin set. Two years later, we have this dreamlike set,
with *perfect* extras. If this set had been put together in the USA
we'd have extras consisting of Leonard Maltin chatting with Robin
Williams, Billy Crystal and Adam Sandler. Okay, maybe Sandler would've
been interesting, but what we get from MK2 raises the bar as high as it
can go -- Abbas Kiarostami, the Dardenne Bros, Liv Ullmann, Claude
Chabrol, Jim Jarmusch, Emir Kusturica, and Bernardo Bertolucci
contribute, separately, to the documentary for the film with which they
have a personal affinity. It's refreshing to encounter a huge release
like this with a distinctly European flavour, one that hasn't been
dumbed down to the lowest common denominator to maximise dollarage.
Hats off to the Chaplin estate and MK2 for doing Charlie very proud.
Hats firmly left in place for Warners USA.
> Apparently some of the best thought THE KID quite, quite good.
> I did not see any Chaplin films available on The Criterion lists. Does
> anyone know why Criterion has no Chaplin works? Is it because many are
> already available?
It's simply a case of Criterion not having the rights. As stated above
in Nick's piece, after the rights lapsed from "CBS-Fox"/Image in the
US, the Chaplin estate licensed the films to MK2. The American
versions of the DVDs are severely botched -- Warner Bros. never
bothered to convert the PAL versions of the R2 UK discs to the North
American NTSC standard, and just threw them on the disc as they were --
as such, the picture is slightly blurry, and unless there's absolutely
no movement within the frame, it's impossible to get a clean,
un-blurred pause of a single frame. Only four of the films have been
released in the US to date, with the rest coming very soon -- whether
they'll also be messed up is still unknown. Hopefully if the "complete
box" (sans Chaplin Essanay/Mutual shorts/one-reelers and 'A Countess
from Hong Kong' (1967) ) is ever released in the US, this will be
remedied. (Akin to what MGM is taking the time to do now with the
botched transfers of Bergman's 'Hour of the Wolf' and 'Shame.')
BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson will ever be hired
for a leading role again? At least, that is, within the next two or
three years.
craig.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7364
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:55am
Subject: Re: The Pied Piper (Irving Pichel, 1942)
Wow, tell us how you REALLY feel! I haven't had the pleasure
of seeing Pichel's Pied Piper, but if you want to see Pichel
himself --and I'm betting you don't!--he's the rather imposing,
sonorous-voiced D.A. who prosecutes Philips Holmes in
Sternberg's An American Tragedy. Some people feel that his
grandstanding performance damages the movie, but then isn't
a prosecutor on a high-profile case going to ham it up? (He has
smaller acting roles in DeMille's Cleopatra, Jezebel, and even
Dracula's Daughter).
His 1943 Happy Land is a surpassingly odd wartime fantasy about
small-town pharmacist Don Ameche reliving life with his dead son's
ghost, a kind of cross between Our Town and A Guy Named Joe. The
acting is very competent and the visual style seems more the
work of Joseph LaShelle, so Pichel's contribution seems to be the
very solemn but nicely detailed atmosphere (and it's a rarity for
containing no wartime appeals to patriotism whatsoever). The same
solemnity turns up much increased in 1948's Miracle of the Bells ,
a film which sucks the life out of Fred MacMurray, Alida Valli, and
Frank Sinatra.
Temptation, a Victorian murder melodrama, looks visually striking, but
that's thanks to Lucien Ballard photographing his wife, Merle Oberon.
Supposedly, Pichel's best movies are Life Begins At Eight-Thirty and
They Won't Believe Me, but I've never been able to sit through
either one of them.
As for Tomorrow Is Forever, it's melodrama without subtext,
recommended for Orson Welles completists. The story pivots on a
hidden identity that really tests one's credulity, but the seven-year
old Natalie Wood is very good in a nakedly emotional way (and with a
German accent, at that), but Claudette Colbert can't do much with her
role, and then there's George Brent.
On a different subject, and a happier note, many thanks (to Jaime)
for recommending Boris Barnet's Alyonka, which was amazingly
dynamic in visual terms, with several hilariously witty episodes and
a unique tone of tough-minded but radiant optimism. What a
memorable film!
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> This is, quite honestly, one of the most alarming movies ever made.
... It must be...the worst, most nauseatingly earnest, saccharine,
phony,
> and squirm-inducing movie
> I have ever seen. ..
> Everything about this movie is spot-off. Unfailingly precise in its
> wretchedness
>
I wasn't sure whether I'd avoid
> TOMORROW IS FOREVER
> when it will play as part of the upcoming Film Forum Orson Welles
> retrospective: now I know
> for certain.
>
> Has anyone seen this? I'm sure that another viewer will like it
more
> than I; one would have to,
> since I find it inconceivable that anyone could like it less.
7365
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:55am
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson
> will ever be hired
> for a leading role again? At least, that is, within
> the next two or
> three years.
>
The odds are against it because he's over the hill.
Few teenage girls are attracted to men old enough to
be their grandfather.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
7366
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:02am
Subject: RE: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
I have yet to see the Passion of Christ, but it seemed to me that it is
too straight forward in what it's saying to be of any interest to me.
The idea of Christ in a traditional sense is that he was part god, a
manifestation of god. Movies such as Last Temptation of Christ show a
man who doesn't' want what he has, and is in a continuous struggle with
himself. This inner psychology is so incredibly interesting and
presents many layers that an audience can look at. By showing Christ in
the traditional sense, and in such a short amount of time, I feel that
there is little parallels that an audience can find to themselves. I'm
not going to start on inaccuracies or anything like that, because in the
end it really doesn't matter. The story of Christ as a man is deep and
thoughtful, but of him dying as a god, it is mundane, or so it would
seem. I'm curious as to how the movie will present Jesus and what
commentary to life it will bring, if any. It seems more that Gibson is
trying to retell a story that's been told many times over, just showing
it in a realistic and graphic manner. Does it really serve much of a
point?
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 8:56 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson
> will ever be hired
> for a leading role again? At least, that is, within
> the next two or
> three years.
>
The odds are against it because he's over the hill.
Few teenage girls are attracted to men old enough to
be their grandfather.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7367
From: jaketwilson
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:36am
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> Movies such as Last Temptation of Christ show a
man who doesn't want what he has, and is in a continuous struggle
with himself. This inner psychology is so incredibly interesting and
presents many layers that an audience can look at. By showing Christ
> in the traditional sense, and in such a short amount of time, I
feel that there is little parallels that an audience can find to
themselves. I'm not going to start on inaccuracies or anything like
that, because in the end it really doesn't matter. The story of
Christ as a man is deep and thoughtful, but of him dying as a god, it
> is mundane, or so it would seem.
Uh-huh. Son of God, died for our sins, seen it all before, blah blah
blah. Gibson's movie will probably suck, but you really think the
original Gospel writers had less sense of drama than Paul Schrader?
JTW (agnostic)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 8:56 PM
> To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
>
>
> --- Craig Keller wrote:
> >
> > BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson
> > will ever be hired
> > for a leading role again? At least, that is, within
> > the next two or
> > three years.
> >
> The odds are against it because he's over the hill.
> Few teenage girls are attracted to men old enough to
> be their grandfather.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7368
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:43am
Subject: RE: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
Nice comment .. They definitely knew their drama and took upon many
dramas of the past. All in all, it's just good storytelling in the end.
-----Original Message-----
From: jaketwilson [mailto:upworld1@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:37 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> Movies such as Last Temptation of Christ show a
man who doesn't want what he has, and is in a continuous struggle
with himself. This inner psychology is so incredibly interesting and
presents many layers that an audience can look at. By showing Christ
> in the traditional sense, and in such a short amount of time, I
feel that there is little parallels that an audience can find to
themselves. I'm not going to start on inaccuracies or anything like
that, because in the end it really doesn't matter. The story of
Christ as a man is deep and thoughtful, but of him dying as a god, it
> is mundane, or so it would seem.
Uh-huh. Son of God, died for our sins, seen it all before, blah blah
blah. Gibson's movie will probably suck, but you really think the
original Gospel writers had less sense of drama than Paul Schrader?
JTW (agnostic)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 8:56 PM
> To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
>
>
> --- Craig Keller wrote:
> >
> > BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson
> > will ever be hired
> > for a leading role again? At least, that is, within
> > the next two or
> > three years.
> >
> The odds are against it because he's over the hill.
> Few teenage girls are attracted to men old enough to
> be their grandfather.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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7369
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:50am
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
I don't know much about the film, but I was amused when I read a short
article today over someone's shoulder titled "Jesus Christ Supercar."
Apparently the film is sponsoring the Daytona 500, and one of the top
drivers will have images of PASSION painted on his car. Now I'm even
more confused as to what Gibson is trying to do.
On Feb 10, 2004, at 9:02 PM, A R Ervolino wrote:
> I have yet to see the Passion of Christ, but it seemed to me that it is
> too straight forward in what it's saying to be of any interest to me.
> The idea of Christ in a traditional sense is that he was part god, a
> manifestation of god. Movies such as Last Temptation of Christ show a
> man who doesn't' want what he has, and is din a continuous struggle
> with
> himself. This inner psychology is so incredibly interesting and
> presents many layers that an audience can look at. By showing Christ
> in
> the traditional sense, and in such a short amount of time, I feel that
> there is little parallels that an audience can find to themselves. I'm
> not going to start on inaccuracies or anything like that, because in
> the
> end it really doesn't matter. The story of Christ as a man is deep and
> thoughtful, but of him dying as a god, it is mundane, or so it would
> seem. I'm curious as to how the movie will present Jesus and what
> commentary to life it will bring, if any. It seems more that Gibson is
> trying to retell a story that's been told many times over, just showing
> it in a realistic and graphic manner. Does it really serve much of a
> point?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ehrenstein [mailto:cellar47@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 8:56 PM
> To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
>
>
> --- Craig Keller wrote:
> >
> > BTW, does anyone on this list think that Mel Gibson
> > will ever be hired
> > for a leading role again? At least, that is, within
> > the next two or
> > three years.
> >
> The odds are against it because he's over the hill.
> Few teenage girls are attracted to men old enough to
> be their grandfather.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7370
From:
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:48am
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> I don't know much about the film, but I was amused when I read a
short
> article today over someone's shoulder titled "Jesus Christ
Supercar."
> Apparently the film is sponsoring the Daytona 500, and one of the
top
> drivers will have images of PASSION painted on his car. Now I'm
even
> more confused as to what Gibson is trying to do.
>
Well, he's trying to sell a film, is what he's trying to do, and he
knows where a good part of his audience lies. (Car-racing fans are a
surprisingly religious demographic, for whatever reason.) I
personally see nothing wrong with it, as long as THE PASSION doesn't
feature cameos from racing car drivers or anything like that. You
spend a zillion dollars on a film, you have the right to at least
*try* to make it back.
As for the film, I'm really curious to see it. There's no point to
criticising Gibson's choice to base his film entirely (allegedly, at
least) on the Gospels, because chances are, for pure fidelity to the
text, his film will not top Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
MATTHEW, which is not only the greatest depiction of Christ I've
ever seen, but also features not a *single* lne of dialogue that
isn't in the Gospels. If a Marxist atheist homosexual can make the
most devout Christ film of all time, then who knows, maybe an ultra-
conservative Catholic might make a subversive one.
And I also think there's enough pure kinetic energy in the good
parts of BRAVEHEART to at least expect that Gibson's film might be
cinematically exciting. Plus, Jim Caviezel's a terrific actor. He
was pretty much born to play Jesus.
-Bilge
7371
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:54am
Subject: Re: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
Anyone know how wide it's going to be released?
On Feb 10, 2004, at 11:48 PM, ebiri@a... wrote:
> > I don't know much about the film, but I was amused when I read a
> short
> > article today over someone's shoulder titled "Jesus Christ
> Supercar."
> > Apparently the film is sponsoring the Daytona 500, and one of the
> top
> > drivers will have images of PASSION painted on his car. Now I'm
> even
> > more confused as to what Gibson is trying to do.
> >
>
> Well, he's trying to sell a film, is what he's trying to do, and he
> knows where a good part of his audience lies. (Car-racing fans are a
> surprisingly religious demographic, for whatever reason.) I
> personally see nothing wrong with it, as long as THE PASSION doesn't
> feature cameos from racing car drivers or anything like that. You
> spend a zillion dollars on a film, you have the right to at least
> *try* to make it back.
>
> As for the film, I'm really curious to see it. There's no point to
> criticising Gibson's choice to base his film entirely (allegedly, at
> least) on the Gospels, because chances are, for pure fidelity to the
> text, his film will not top Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
> MATTHEW, which is not only the greatest depiction of Christ I've
> ever seen, but also features not a *single* lne of dialogue that
> isn't in the Gospels. If a Marxist atheist homosexual can make the
> most devout Christ film of all time, then who knows, maybe an ultra-
> conservative Catholic might make a subversive one.
>
> And I also think there's enough pure kinetic energy in the good
> parts of BRAVEHEART to at least expect that Gibson's film might be
> cinematically exciting. Plus, Jim Caviezel's a terrific actor. He
> was pretty much born to play Jesus.
>
> -Bilge
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7372
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:41am
Subject: Re: The Pied Piper (Demy)
any way, that might make it more attractive, or at least fascinating
in a "bad movie" kind of way. But it's more like a Brad Silberling
directing a Ronald Bass script.>
Well there's eerie and eerie (my word). There's Tim Burton eerie, and
Marcel Carne eerie, and Ed Wood eerie, and Jacques Tourneur eerie...
Actually, "eerie" is rarely gotten right, and in this case it has to
do neither with the portrayal of the era (which is not "made strange"
in the Brechtian sense - it looks like a picture book, with dirt) nor
of the Piper as an image (although there is an iconic tradition in
illustrative art for doing that) -- you know, he's, like, Donovan.
What's eerie is the film as a whole and the role it assigns to him -
he seems to belong to another reality. As in Model Shop, Demy
frustrated expectations with this one: Donovan, the Pied Piper,
children... Coming at the end of the "60s" (= first half of the 70s,
too) it is an amazingly bleak statement about what all that had meant
and accomplished: zip.
Ronald Bass is one of the biggest frauds in Hollywood. A lawyer whose
writing career took off when Rafelson, uncredited, completely rewrote
his script for Black Widow, he is the Tinseltown Peter Principle
incarnate. Puh-lease...
7373
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:42am
Subject: Re: Fleischer
Anyone know how to get in touch with him?
7374
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:43am
Subject: Re: Duh Passion and Chaplin
Ah, if only Charlie, in a moment of hubris, had decided to play a
major historical GOOD guy for a change...
7375
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:02am
Subject: Re: Fleischer
I've written Mr. Fleischer via snail mail, and he sent me a small
note thanking me for some kind comments, answered a question I had
and signed a copy of his autobiography for me.
I'd rather not post his address publicly on the group, but if you
wanted it for a specific reason, just e-mail me off-group.
-Aaron
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Anyone know how to get in touch with him?
7376
From: Dave Garrett
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:02am
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> It's simply a case of Criterion not having the rights. As stated above
> in Nick's piece, after the rights lapsed from "CBS-Fox"/Image in the
> US, the Chaplin estate licensed the films to MK2. The American
> versions of the DVDs are severely botched -- Warner Bros. never
> bothered to convert the PAL versions of the R2 UK discs to the North
> American NTSC standard, and just threw them on the disc as they were --
> as such, the picture is slightly blurry, and unless there's absolutely
> no movement within the frame, it's impossible to get a clean,
> un-blurred pause of a single frame.
Actually, this is not the case - they did convert the existing PAL transfers
to NTSC, and therein lies the problem. Normally, for a project like this,
PAL transfers of the restored film elements would've been done for
the European market, and separate NTSC transfers of the same elements
for the US market. Apparently, both Warner and MK2 each wanted the
other to pay for new NTSC transfers, and when they couldn't reach
agreement, Warner opted to convert the PAL transfers instead of
absorbing the cost of new transfers. It's a puzzling decision, especially
considering the generally high quality of the work they've done with
other classic films for DVD.
Dave
7377
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:08am
Subject: DGA Proposes Possessory Credit Bargain
Let me state that my interest in film is as a screenwriter and I have no
interest in directing.
As much as I don't like "A film by," it seems that first
time filmmakers who write and direct (and probably produce) a film can
claim it to be "a film by." Will these people be a special case?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, aUser wrote:
> DGA Proposes Possessory Credit Bargain
> Message-ID:
> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Length: 1020
> X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster
> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88
> From: "Jaime N. Christley"
> X-Originating-IP: 162.83.153.141
> Subject:
> X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=103453640
> X-Yahoo-Profile: j_christley
>
> From the IMDb - of general interest, perhaps, and they snuck in an
> advertisement for our board in the first sentence:
>
> Hollywood's "possessory credit" -- the one reading "a film by ..." --
> a longtime sticking point in labor negotiations within the
> entertainment industry, is about to be amended. The Directors Guild of
> America on Monday said that it would ask that the credit not be
> awarded to first-time directors, and that it would discourage the
> studios from awarding it to directors with three films or less. If, as
> expected, the studios agree to the proposal, the change would mollify
> screenwriters who have long held that the possessory credit diminishes
> their own contributions. The Writers Guild of America, West, which is
> about to open negotiations with the studios on a new contract, had
> been expected to raise the issue of possessory credits during
> negotiations. WGA President Charles Holland remarked, "We praise this
> important step toward a healthier, more beneficial relationship
> between our two guilds."
7378
From: Michael Brooke
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:14am
Subject: L4E Decoded! (JPC Alert!)
>
> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:42:28 EST
> From: MG4273@a...
> Subject: L4E Decoded! (JPC Alert!)
>
> L4E: LILYA-4_EVER (Lucas Moodysson): Swedish film about a dreadfully
> exploited woman who is victimised by the white slave trade in Eastern
> Europe
> (according to reviews read). I didn't like the only Moodysson film
> seen here,
> "Together", about a really dour left-wing Swedish commune. The scene
> where the
> communards deconstruct "Pippi Longstocking" as a work of capitalist
> propoganda is
> memorablely grating (and probably meant as satire, to be fair)
>
I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that it's meant as satire,
though one of the many things I loved about TOGETHER was the
Renoir-like generosity that Moodysson showed towards people that he
clearly thought were as naοve and irritating as the rest of us
undoubtedly did. I've met loads of people just like the ones in the
commune and I suspect Moodysson felt the same way about them that I
did: despite their manifest failings, their idealism is immensely
touching. In particular, the scene where Gφran tries to explain his
personal philosophy in terms of porridge is a little masterpiece of
comic timing, not least because we get the distinct impression halfway
through his monologue that he doesn't really believe what he's saying
either.
Mind you, this film has a very special place in my heart for being by
far the most successful first date movie of my life - in that I'm now
married to the woman I saw it with. She only told me afterwards that
she'd never seen a subtitled film in the cinema before, but loved
TOGETHER so much that she was converted then and there.
Michael
7379
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:25am
Subject: 25FEB is ASH WEDNESDAY; a few days before the Oscars
This is from the Landmark theaters site
Coming Soon To:
Austin
Dobie Theatre
Minneapolis
Lagoon Cinema
New Orleans
Canal Place Cinema
San Diego
La Jolla Village Cinemas
Seattle
Neptune Theatre
Advertised screenings on 25FEB2004 here in San Diego
(25FEB is ASH WEDNESDAY and just a few days before the Oscars).
I predict THE PASSION will have many viewers. The film is being
presented to many religious groups which are buying out entire
screenings to make tickets available to all comers.
I attended a Catholic grade school in a rather poor town; no one
would consider it a private school, we had no facilities besides
class rooms. Interestingly, when a movie like THE NUN'S STORY
or THE CARDINAL came to town, the entire school would go, as well
as all the students from the PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "A. Oscar Boyson" wrote:
> Anyone know how wide it's going to be released?
>
7380
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:14am
Subject: Re: Christian audiences
Like Elizabeth I came from an extremely small town where one of my
best friends was in the Church of Christ - a denomination that was
forbidden to go to movies. The congregation got a special
dispensation to see The Ten Commandments.
7381
From: George Robinson
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:48am
Subject: Re: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
He isn't just using the gospels, he's using a 19th-century text by a
notoriously, openly anti-Semitic nun.
g
[A]rmaments were not created chiefly for the protection
of the nations but for their enslavement.
--Mark Twain
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:48 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> > I don't know much about the film, but I was amused when I read a
> short
> > article today over someone's shoulder titled "Jesus Christ
> Supercar."
> > Apparently the film is sponsoring the Daytona 500, and one of the
> top
> > drivers will have images of PASSION painted on his car. Now I'm
> even
> > more confused as to what Gibson is trying to do.
> >
>
> Well, he's trying to sell a film, is what he's trying to do, and he
> knows where a good part of his audience lies. (Car-racing fans are a
> surprisingly religious demographic, for whatever reason.) I
> personally see nothing wrong with it, as long as THE PASSION doesn't
> feature cameos from racing car drivers or anything like that. You
> spend a zillion dollars on a film, you have the right to at least
> *try* to make it back.
>
> As for the film, I'm really curious to see it. There's no point to
> criticising Gibson's choice to base his film entirely (allegedly, at
> least) on the Gospels, because chances are, for pure fidelity to the
> text, his film will not top Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
> MATTHEW, which is not only the greatest depiction of Christ I've
> ever seen, but also features not a *single* lne of dialogue that
> isn't in the Gospels. If a Marxist atheist homosexual can make the
> most devout Christ film of all time, then who knows, maybe an ultra-
> conservative Catholic might make a subversive one.
>
> And I also think there's enough pure kinetic energy in the good
> parts of BRAVEHEART to at least expect that Gibson's film might be
> cinematically exciting. Plus, Jim Caviezel's a terrific actor. He
> was pretty much born to play Jesus.
>
> -Bilge
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
7382
From: George Robinson
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 0:05pm
Subject: Re: back issues of Movie
Butler Library at Columbia University has fairly complete runs of Positif,
Cahiers (back to the old Revue days) and Film Comment. No Movie, though.
g
[A]rmaments were not created chiefly for the protection
of the nations but for their enslavement.
--Mark Twain
7383
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Christian audiences
Who could resist Anne Baxter and Yul Brynner?
"The Ten Commndaments" is the greatest film of the
19th Century.
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Like Elizabeth I came from an extremely small town
> where one of my
> best friends was in the Church of Christ - a
> denomination that was
> forbidden to go to movies. The congregation got a
> special
> dispensation to see The Ten Commandments.
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
7384
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
--- ebiri@a... wrote:
If a Marxist atheist
> homosexual can make the
> most devout Christ film of all time, then who knows,
> maybe an ultra-
> conservative Catholic might make a subversive one.
>
That might follow logically, but in the real world --
or the fantasy one Melvin lives in -- I very much
doubt it.
Plus, Jim Caviezel's a
> terrific actor. He
> was pretty much born to play Jesus.
>
He woudl agree with you. In fact there were many
reports -- well in advance of his hooking up with
Melvin -- that Caviezel thought he WAS Jesus Christ.
__________________________________
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7385
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:37pm
Subject: RE: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
I think also one would have to consider the fact that Gibson and
Pasolini are pretty far from each other. Because Pasolini, who was a
"Marxist atheist homosexual", could make a great movie of Christ from
the Gospels, doesn't mean that Gibson can. Though I think every person
at my old film school would disagree with me here (they laughed through
most of 400 Blows, finding it ridiculous), but I feel that Pasolini is a
wonderful directors, which is where he differs with Gibson.
-----Original Message-----
From: ebiri@a... [mailto:ebiri@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:49 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
As for the film, I'm really curious to see it. There's no point to
criticising Gibson's choice to base his film entirely (allegedly, at
least) on the Gospels, because chances are, for pure fidelity to the
text, his film will not top Pasolini's THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
MATTHEW, which is not only the greatest depiction of Christ I've
ever seen, but also features not a *single* lne of dialogue that
isn't in the Gospels. If a Marxist atheist homosexual can make the
most devout Christ film of all time, then who knows, maybe an ultra-
conservative Catholic might make a subversive one.
And I also think there's enough pure kinetic energy in the good
parts of BRAVEHEART to at least expect that Gibson's film might be
cinematically exciting. Plus, Jim Caviezel's a terrific actor. He
was pretty much born to play Jesus.
-Bilge
_____
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7386
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- ebiri@a... wrote:
"If a Marxist atheist homosexual can make the most devout Christ film
of all time, then who knows, maybe an ultra-conservative Catholic
might make a subversive one."
"That might follow logically, but in the real world -- or the fantasy
one Melvin lives in -- I very much doubt it."
Gibson is not a Roman Catholic. He belongs to a sect that broke from
the Church after Vatican II was promulgated. This sect opposed
saying mass in the vernacular and all the other liberalizing trends
endorsed by "Pacem in Terris." It continues to hold Latin masses and
does not endorse the Vatican's absolution of the Jews. While the
dialogue in THE PASSION will be in Aramaic, Latin and Mishradic
Hebrew it is not based exclusively on the Gospels and draws from
doubtful legendary sources in popular 19th century Catholicism.
Richard
(Jewish Buddhist anarchist)
7387
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
> I feel that Pasolini is a
> wonderful directors, which is where he differs with Gibson.
BRAVEHEART didn't always show good judgment with the emotional story,
but I thought Gibson's direction of the battle scenes was unusually
lucid: he seemed to be taking tips from WAR AND PEACE, emphasizing the
movements and collisions of masses of troops.
I haven't yet seen the light vis a vis Pasolini, but it's definitely
time for me to revisit him. - Dan
7388
From:
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Chaplin and Mel Gibson's Arrogance
Richard Modiano:
>
> Gibson is not a Roman Catholic. He belongs to a sect that broke
from
> the Church after Vatican II was promulgated. This sect opposed
> saying mass in the vernacular and all the other liberalizing
trends
> endorsed by "Pacem in Terris." It continues to hold Latin masses
and
> does not endorse the Vatican's absolution of the Jews.
There has been much written about this in the media, and much of it
is wrong, actually. Gibson's FATHER belongs to this group. Gibson
himself has never actually claimed to belong to this sect. True, he
is an extremely conservative Catholic, and he probably shares some
beliefs with these people, but the allegations of him belonging to
this sect are unproven, even though they've been repeated in
respectable media outlets.
> While the
> dialogue in THE PASSION will be in Aramaic, Latin and Mishradic
> Hebrew it is not based exclusively on the Gospels and draws from
> doubtful legendary sources in popular 19th century Catholicism.
>
Yeah, it's also based on the visions of a 19th century Benedictine
nun. And that's why it won't even come close to Pasolini's film
for "accuracy". (And as far as I'm concerned, all these sources
are "doubtful".)
I think the big mistake Gibson has made has been his total
selectivity in choosing who gets to see his film. When the furor
erupted over Scorsese's LAST TEMPTATION (the other great Jesus
movie), the film's makers and supporters kept inviting those on the
other side to come and see the film and then debate its merits,
which the other side often refused to do, for fear of "blasphemy".
Now, the situation is reversed, and as much as this film's
supporters keep saying "See the film, see the film," they've gone
out of their way to bar those on the other side from doing so.
That's why it will be genuinely interesting on Feb. 25th when the
floodgates are finally opened, I think. Too much has already been
written about this thing for anyone to actually be able to judge it
on its own merits, but I'm sure as hell gonna try.
-Bilge
7389
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:28pm
Subject: Pasolini
Since we've kind of gotten on the subject, at least a little, I wanted
to talk a little bit about Pasolini. I have, regrettably, seen few of
his films, and have always wanted to see more. I have continuously
searched E-Bay for an affordable copy of the Criterion Salo, though I've
seen it several times on VHS. The rarity of Salo has brought up a lot
of interesting points in film media today. I know there's the BFI
edition of Salo, but I've heard the transfer is not nearly as good, but
I do not know this first hand, only have read things on the web stating
that.
I was going to be getting a copy of his Canterbury Tales, I've been
curious about that for awhile. If anyone had any comments about
Pasolini I would like to know. I studied him while studying Bertolucci,
but I have not gotten a chance to see much of his works. The same goes
with Antonioni unfortunately. So any suggestions anyone can make,
either comments about different characteristics of his films or even
simple suggestions of what to try and get a hold of . Thanks
Note: I made a terrible error in one of my last posts, putting 400 Blows
as a Pasolini film, we did watch 400 Blows and it was received VERY
poorly among students in California, but the Pasolini film I meant to
talk about there was his Oedipus Rex.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7390
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini
My personal favorites are The Arabian Nights and the short La
Ricotta (in RoGoPag). He's unique - he doesn't obey any
syntactic rules that I know of - Chaplin would be the closest to
what he does, but essentially he's a painter and a poet.
Antonioni is one of the great masters of modern cinema, but he
is much more part of cinema tradition - as influencee and
influencer - than Pasolini, whose films are genuine UFOs. They
were friends, and the only accurate thing ever written on Red
Desert is a passage in Pasolini's famous essay "Cinema of
Prose and Cinema of Poetry." He certainly understood what
Antonioni was doing much better than Godard did at the time.
Personally, I prefer P and A to Bertolucci, whose recent films are
the ones I really like - almost everything from Luna on (that I've
seen). But that is a very minority opinion!
7391
From: Jess Amortell
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:40pm
Subject: Les 400 Coups today
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "A R Ervolino" wrote:
> we did watch 400 Blows and it was received VERY
> poorly among students in California
You said they found it ridiculous -- Jules & Jim I could understand, but what could anyone possibly find ridiculous about The 400 Blows? I'm on the trail of a new perspective here, I suppose, although obviously I'm not really asking you to account for others' tastes. Thanks--
7392
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:42pm
Subject: RE: Re: Pasolini
Thanks for the information . I was just reading about Red Desert last
night, it's such a shame that a movie can be so damaged . to never see
it as it originally was created. But there are always complications, I
suppose. Arabian Nights was another I was looking at, isn't it
associated with Canterbury Tales in a way? I don't think directly, more
like the Colour Trilogy, where they are made into a trilogy by style.
Also, why do you like Arabian Nights so much? I feel that people really
have problems with Pasolini because of the low budgets he used, and an
unorthodox style. As I said before, in the film school I was at in
California, Pasolini became equal to the term crap, simply because no
one bother to think about what they were seeing. It's really a shame,
especially when films like Breathless are seen in the same manner, by
film majors!
-----Original Message-----
From: hotlove666 [mailto:hotlove666@y...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:20 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Pasolini
My personal favorites are The Arabian Nights and the short La
Ricotta (in RoGoPag). He's unique - he doesn't obey any
syntactic rules that I know of - Chaplin would be the closest to
what he does, but essentially he's a painter and a poet.
Antonioni is one of the great masters of modern cinema, but he
is much more part of cinema tradition - as influencee and
influencer - than Pasolini, whose films are genuine UFOs. They
were friends, and the only accurate thing ever written on Red
Desert is a passage in Pasolini's famous essay "Cinema of
Prose and Cinema of Poetry." He certainly understood what
Antonioni was doing much better than Godard did at the time.
Personally, I prefer P and A to Bertolucci, whose recent films are
the ones I really like - almost everything from Luna on (that I've
seen). But that is a very minority opinion!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7393
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:53pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini
--- A R Ervolino wrote:
Pier Paolo Pasolini is one of the most important
figures of the 2Oth Century. A poet, a novelist, a
journalist, and public intellecual -- well known to
Italians who had only read a smattering of his
newspaper columms or seen him on TV -- he made his
greatest mark as a filmmaker.
While "Salo" is out of print at the moment almost all
of his major films are available on DVD. I have
"Oedipus Rex" and "Porcile" on laser. My DVD
collection consists of "Salo," "Canterbury Tales,"
"The Gospel According to Matthew" and "The Decameron."
I have "Mama Roma" and "Arabian Nights" on VHS.
Though "Accatone" and "Mama Roma" owe much to
neo-realism( he worked as a scriptwriter for Fellini
on "Nights of Cabiria") Pasolini found a syle of his
on with "Gospel According to Matthew." Using mostly
non-professional actors in the neo-relaist manner is
work is nonetheless highly stylized.
He discovered Ninetto Davoli (possibly the most
profound romantic relationship of his life) while
shooting "Gospel" and created "The Hawks and the
Sparrows" for him -- having the great inspiration of
casting himas the son of the great music hall clown
Toto. A born comic performer Ninetto appeared in
almost every subsequent Pasolini film with the marked
exception of "Salo."
There are only vitims and executioners in "Salo" and
Pasolini couldn't bear to see Ninetto as either.
Though I saw him speak at the New York Film Fesitval
in 1966, in 1969 I had the great pleasure and honor of
meeting him personally in New York when he came to
show "Teorema" at the Museum of Modern Art. He's one
of the most impressive people I've ever met.
Two of my favortie films of his are episodes from
compilation films: "Che Cosa Sono Nuovole?" a puppet
Othello with Toto (Iago) Ninetto (Othello), Laura
Betti (Desdemona), Adiana Asti (Emilia) and Domenico
Modugnio (remember "Volare"?) as the singing garbage
man who takes the puppets to the city dump when the
audience attacks them because Ninetto (who doesn't
understand why Othello acts the way he does) departs
from the script.
The other episode film is "Il Fiori di Campo" in which
Ninetto is seen walking through the strets of Rome --
as happy-go-lucky as ever -- while events of the day
are superimposed over himin stills and headlines. Then
the voice of God (Bernardo Bertolucci) asks Ninetto
why he doesn't take action. Ninetto doesn't know what
to say -- so God strikes him dead. This was
Pasolini's reworking of the episode of the fig tree in
the Gospels -- the only act of pure destructive power
ever undertaken by Christ.
__________________________________
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7394
From: A R Ervolino
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:55pm
Subject: RE: Les 400 Coups today
Just a little into the movie people could see a 'poor' production style
. it wasn't flashy or bright, and people got bored. Because it didn't
look nice people actually didn't care as much. Let me say it this way,
when I started at that school I was one of about 20 who got in. The
first day we were told to tell some of our favorite films, more than
half the class said that the Fast and the Furious was their all time
favorite movie. If that isn't sick for a film student to say! The most
admirable thing that any person said was Hitchcock's Rebecca, which I
enjoy very very much. I still keep in contact with one of the teachers
of my old school, who just got done putting his new movie Mad Song onto
DVD. If any of you are from the LA area and saw it, let me know what
you thought personally. Dave Roy, as he's known in movies, is really an
incredible man, and he has talked to me several times in the last
several months about the frustration of the film student. IN the end,
they don't care about cinema, they care about money, The problem is
that most schools cater to this idea and it makes ignorant film students
who make movies that "Look Cool" without any reason in their decisions.
Sorry to go off, but it's been an incredibly trying and stressful 4
years of school, it's hard to ever find a single person who shares my
views in America. And most of them look down on my because of my age
and lack of experience.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jess Amortell [mailto:monterone@m...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:41 PM
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [a_film_by] Les 400 Coups today
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "A R Ervolino"
wrote:
> we did watch 400 Blows and it was received VERY
> poorly among students in California
You said they found it ridiculous -- Jules & Jim I could understand, but
what could anyone possibly find ridiculous about The 400 Blows? I'm on
the trail of a new perspective here, I suppose, although obviously I'm
not really asking you to account for others' tastes. Thanks--
_____
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7395
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:27pm
Subject: Welles prints at Film Forum
I've been to all three press screenings anticipating the New York
Welles retrospective, at Film Forum. The prints for THE MAGNIFICENT
AMBERSONS and THE STRANGER look fine, not super-duper-perfect but very
good.
The print for CONFIDENTIAL REPORT, which FF's press liaison says came
from a French lab, looks stunning - the best I've seen. Either this
is an archival print that's been kept clean for fifty years, or a new
(and thorough) restoration. Even the worst shot in the film - Milly's
first lines, "You know we can't afford any trouble," etc., as she
backs across a huge crate - a shot that looks (on the Criterion
laserdisc and the British DVD) to have been shot using an 8mm home
movie camera, looks fine. The print greatly alleviates the heavy
grain of the British DVD and the lack of clarity in the laserdisc
transfer. (I've never seen it on tape.)
Going by Jonathan Rosenbaum's essay, this is ARKADIN #6, the one
called CONFIDENTIAL REPORT. It includes: bats in the titles, the
framing device which begins with Van Stratten's meeting with Jakob
Zouk, the Georgian toast, the scene near the beginning with the black
American pianist, and so on.
Word is, OTHELLO will be the newly-scored "restoration" version.
I found THE STRANGER to be much stronger than I remembered, first
seeing it at the tender age of fifteen or sixteen. It's also more
Wellesian - against the grain of its thriller/anti-Nazi template -
than general wisdom would have it.
7396
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Welles prints at Film Forum
I just remembered something - the REPORT print looks so good that you
can see every last detail of Welles' ridiculous Arkadin make-up (the
line where the wig meets his forehead), the grease in Robert Arden's
pompadour, etc. Paola Mori looks about ten times more grotesque than
I remembered - her makeup is downright clownish at times.
-Jaime
7397
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:40pm
Subject: Re: Welles prints
What's a good print involves more than detail - hopefully what
you saw respected Welles' timing, too. I know that Beatrice's
Othello prints and Robert Wise's timing of Kane for its
Paramount re-release in 1990-1 did not. At all. Meaning that
details were visible that shouldn't have been, for example.
Anyhow, it sounds to die for. I saw that version in Paris and have
always loved it.
7398
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini
David, I certainly should have mention What Are the Clouds?,
Hawks and Sparrows and Mama Roma.
I love Arabian Nights - the third in the Trilogy of Life (The
Decamaron, Canterbury Tales, Arabian Nights) - because of the
narrative structure, the extraordinary colors and textures, the way
it encapsulates the era in which it was made - seeing it today is
like opening a time capsule on an world that is gone, when
radical politics and sexual politics were at the forefront of cultural
concerns, never to return.
Even Serge Daney told me that Pasolini was "coming from so
far away" that it took him and the Cahiers du cinema, the
magazine he then edited, a few years to catach up. Serge's
friend Jean-Claude Biette, who assisted Pasolini in Italy, was the
person who epxlained it to them when he returned to paris - to
make films that are very Pasolini-influenced in their framing and
stylization.
7399
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Welles prints
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> What's a good print involves more than detail - hopefully what
> you saw respected Welles' timing, too. I know that Beatrice's
> Othello prints and Robert Wise's timing of Kane for its
> Paramount re-release in 1990-1 did not. At all. Meaning that
> details were visible that shouldn't have been, for example.
> Anyhow, it sounds to die for. I saw that version in Paris and have
> always loved it.
I know what you mean re: over-detailed prints, harking back to
criticism of the KANE restoration and the overly "correct-ified"
OTHELLO, etc. I wonder, since it came from France*, if the chances
are great that the print was created by parties attempting to be as
faithful to Welles as circumstances permit? Rather than the
alternative: pushing the film to conform to a platonic ideal alien to
Welles' vision?
* Along with the Coneheads.
-Jaime
7400
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: auteur, metteur-en-scene, cineaste, etc
Have the definitions of these terms been fully explained on a_film_by?
If not, could someone (hello Bill) give me a run-down on what each
term means?
They overlap sometimes, don't they? Especially given the long and
varied careers of many directors.
-Jaime
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