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9401
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chabrol
I just saw Modesty Blaise for the first time on Sunday. It wore me down
towards the end but I fell in love with its chutzpah, I'd guess you'd have to call
it. In tone and even scenery, it reminded me of Beat the Devil. All that lazy
lounging around. Very meta. Was it as much a commercial failure as Beat the
Devil?
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9402
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:08pm
Subject: Director's cut of 'Donnie Darko' to Play at Film Festival
'Donnie Darko' to Play at Film Festival
SEATTLE (AP) - The director's cut of the cult favorite "Donnie Darko," starring Jake
Gyllenhaal as a teenager tormented by visions of a giant, evil rabbit, will premiere at the
Seattle International Film Festival next month.
...
The director's cut "has quite a bit of added footage and a more complete story line,"
McInnis said.
Is this a new trend? People might avoid the theatrical release and wait for a
director's cut on the festival circuit!?
9403
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/27/04 1:48:14 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
>
>
> > Because homophobia was rampant in France and there was no such
thing as
> > "gay pride"! I think Douchet uses the word just because it's
handy and he
> > doesn't have to be politically correct.
> >
> But the article was published in 1998 and the interviewer uses
those words as
> well. Over here, it would be like someone interviewing, oh, Gus Van
Sant for
> Out magazine and saying, e.g. "So were any of the boys in Elephant
fags?"
> "Yes, several of them were faggots." I'd be pretty shocked to read
that. So in
> France, can you use "pédés" to mean an innocuous general term
like "gays" or "gay
> men" or were both Douchet and the interviewer being extremely
colloquial?
>
> Kevin
>
They were both being colloquial (extremely so if you wish) in the
way that has become fashionable in French intellectual conversation
and the French media. The implication is: "We're both intelligent and
sophisticated enough not to be restrained by conventional notions of
political correctness." There also may be a bit of provocation there
("I'm gay and I'm not afraid of using the P. word...") Note that the
intro to the interview is itself written in a somewhat colloquial,
slangy style ("on s'en fout," "foireux"...) Tetuarchives is not
mainstream of course, so perhaps Le Monde or Le Figaro wouldn't
use "pede" so carelessly...
JPC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9404
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Douchet Interview
Thanx for clarifying! I thought "on s'en fout" looked a little sassy...
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9405
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:43pm
Subject: Re: Chabrol
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I just saw Modesty Blaise for the first time on Sunday. It wore me
down
> towards the end but I fell in love with its chutzpah, I'd guess
you'd have to call
> it. In tone and even scenery, it reminded me of Beat the Devil. All
that lazy
> lounging around. Very meta. Was it as much a commercial failure as
Beat the
> Devil?
>
> Kevin
>
> Hard to see the connection, except for the campiness, which however
is as heavy-handed in Modesty as it is subtle in Beat. I don't think
Modesty Blaise was at all a commercial failure but I may be mistaken.
JPC
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9406
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:52pm
Subject: Re: Director's cut of 'Donnie Darko' to Play at Film Festival
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
>
> Is this a new trend? People might avoid the
> theatrical release and wait for a
> director's cut on the festival circuit!?
>
>
It all depends on the film. Now with DVD "additional
scenes" can be put on as an option if the director
doesn't want to go to the trouble of recutting the
whole. For example there's an alternate opening to the
DVD of "Buckaroo Bazai." But it doesn't really add any
"new" information.
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9407
From: Jess Amortell
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
> But the article was published in 1998 and the interviewer uses those wor=
ds as
> well. Over here, it would be like someone interviewing, oh, Gus Van Sant =
for
> Out magazine and saying, e.g. "So were any of the boys in Elephant fags?"=
> "Yes, several of them were faggots." I'd be pretty shocked to read that. =
So in
> France, can you use "pédés" to mean an innocuous general term like "gays"=
or "gay
> men" or were both Douchet and the interviewer being extremely colloquial?=
Well, Google's translation doesn't mince any words...
"For us, to meet Jean Douchet, it was to seek to know why the fags etrangem=
ent absent, were badly seen, even banished of this major aesthetic movement.=
In short, to try to include/understand with him what made obstacle with th=
e emergence of a scenario writer fag who could have made cross on the Fields=
-Elysees Belmondo as a small gangster with black glasses and Marlon Brando a=
s a salesman of the 'New York Herald Tribune'."
"How do you explain quasi the invisibility of the homos in films of the sce=
nario writers of the New Wave?"
"...if I had wanted to treat homosexuality because I was fag, I could not h=
ave done it. I would not have been financed."
"You know when I worked in the 'Books' (of the Cinema, note), it did not ha=
ve there many homos, I were about only."
"There was a latent homophobie in the NV. At the bottom of themselves, whi=
le refusing to condemn it, they did not accept the idea of the sexual bond b=
etween men. Even compared to me, that
disturbed them a little."
(FWIW, wasn't the relationship in Les Cousins always viewed as "homoerotic"=
? Then, if more tangentially, there was Philippe Noiret's transvestite in Z=
azie... Slim pickings of course.)
9408
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chabrol
I believe it did OK, but wasn't quite the
"blockbuster" some had hoped for.
"Beat the Devil" is a good comparasion in tone of
dialogue delivery.
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I just saw Modesty Blaise for the first time on
> Sunday. It wore me down
> towards the end but I fell in love with its
> chutzpah, I'd guess you'd have to call
> it. In tone and even scenery, it reminded me of Beat
> the Devil. All that lazy
> lounging around. Very meta. Was it as much a
> commercial failure as Beat the
> Devil?
>
> Kevin
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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9409
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Douchet Interview
--- Jess Amortell wrote:
>
> (FWIW, wasn't the relationship in Les Cousins always
> viewed as "homoerotic"=
> ?
Put Biraly nextto a breadbox and it's homoerotic.
That's why Godard cast him in "Une Femme est Une
Femme." He could "trust" Brialy with Anna Karina.
However, being the superb actor that he is, Brialy
managed to pull off "soigne dirty-old-man" in
"Claire's Knee."
Then, if more tangentially, there was Philippe
> Noiret's transvestite in Z=
> azie... Slim pickings of course.)
>
Not the same thing.
Wonder what Ed Wood thought of "Zazie."
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9410
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:48pm
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
More than a few decades ago, I remember seeing Les Amis, written and
directed by Gérard Blain (Brialy's co-star in Les Cousins) .
This was a male love story which struck me at the time as very much
"out" (and he continued to work, it seems).
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jess Amortell"
wrote:
>>
> (FWIW, wasn't the relationship in Les Cousins always viewed as
"homoerotic"=
> ? Then, if more tangentially, there was Philippe Noiret's
transvestite in Z=
> azie... Slim pickings of course.)
9411
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Douchet Interview
--- Robert Keser wrote:
> More than a few decades ago, I remember seeing Les
> Amis, written and
> directed by Gérard Blain (Brialy's co-star in Les
> Cousins) .
> This was a male love story which struck me at the
> time as very much
> "out" (and he continued to work, it seems).
>
I've never seen any of the films Blain has directed,
but I understand he cites Bresson as a crucial
influence.
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9412
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Chabrol (from script to screen)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> >
> > I would be interested to hear if other list members have had that
> nicely
> > disconcerting script-to-screen experience: reading a script,
> imagining not
> > much of a movie, and then being surprised at what the director
> actually
> > achieved in bringing it to life.
My own unexpected example: LANCELOT DU LAC. On the page, it was
absolutely impossible to tell what the film would be like. And I
suspect this would be true of most Bresson films.
9413
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jess Amortell"
wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, Google's translation doesn't mince any words...
>
> "For us, to meet Jean Douchet, it was to seek to know why the fags
etrangem=
> ent absent, were badly seen, even banished of this major aesthetic
movement.=
> In short, to try to include/understand with him what made
obstacle with th=
> e emergence of a scenario writer fag who could have made cross on
the Fields=
> -Elysees Belmondo as a small gangster with black glasses and Marlon
Brando a=
> s a salesman of the 'New York Herald Tribune'."
>
> "How do you explain quasi the invisibility of the homos in films of
the sce=
> nario writers of the New Wave?"
>
> "...if I had wanted to treat homosexuality because I was fag, I
could not h=
> ave done it. I would not have been financed."
>
> "You know when I worked in the 'Books' (of the Cinema, note), it
did not ha=
> ve there many homos, I were about only."
>
> "There was a latent homophobie in the NV. At the bottom of
themselves, whi=
> le refusing to condemn it, they did not accept the idea of the
sexual bond b=
> etween men. Even compared to me, that
> disturbed them a little."
>
> Well our good friend Google sure should go back to language
school. it was fun to see "Cahiers" (du cinema) called "Books")though.
9414
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:00am
Subject: sex lives of directors and critics
Thanks, Joe, for that amazing Douchet link! There is much to discuss here!
Bresson in the closet? Is this news to most of us?? I cannot recall this
being previously discussed in the voluminous Bressonian literature!! David,
that is very touching what you say about A MAN ESCAPED and its importance to
you. I would like to hear more about that.
CAHIERS: Daney in PERSERVERANCE also talks about the marginal place of gays
in the CAHIERS set in the 50s and 60s, referring to Douchet as the
trailblazer/father-figure in that regard.
Godard: doesn't he have a rather complicated relation to gayness and
bisexuality in his life and films? In the first sketch of his JLG biography,
Colin MacCabe wrote that, as a young man, Godard was briefly a gay hustler
on the beach of Copacabana! But this little fact (if fact it is) does not
make it into the book version. And it seems to me that Gorin has said some
candid things down the years about Godard's mooted bisexuality. Certainly,
in that mid 70s to early 80s period, Godard's films are full of gay
references.
POSITIF: Jean-Pierre, I always assumed - from Louise Brooks' description of
him as the "Greek pansy'! - that Ado Kyrou was gay. He wasn't? David: are
you saying or guessing about Roger Tailleur? In the anthology of his writing
(an all-time favourite film book for me) there is reference to his love for
Michele Firk, who some years later killed herself in Guatemala so as not to
be arrested by the cops when she was a militant radical (this is gruesomely
documented in the book GENERATION).
Two pieces of special interest, sex-wise, in POSITIF are: the very 'out'
reminiscence by an early contributor, Albert Bolduc, in the 500th issue; and
the powerful piece by Louis Seguin in no 440, October '97, where he talks
about the 'sexual misery' of the 50s and its effects. He mentions the
veneration by himself, Tailleur and Kyrou for certain actresses (Brooks,
Charisse, etc), and wonders (among other interpretations) if it was "the
visible part, too obvious to be honest, of an unavowed homosexuality".
In present-day French cinema, special mention should be made of the
avant-garde filmmaker Lionel Soukaz, who has recently made a big comeback;
over two decades ago, he collaborated with Guy Hocquenghem on some important
gay films.
Adrian
9415
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:05am
Subject: speaking of sex lives of directors and critics
Wasn't Brian De Palma shtupping Pauline Kael back in the day?
-Jaime
9416
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:04pm
Subject: Re: Director's cut of 'Donnie Darko' to Play at Film Festival
John Waters has a funny line about long "director's cuts" in "Cecil B.
Demented".
This film is entertaining, and full of movie history references.
In general, I think longer versions of movies tend to be more meaningful.
They often explain or add meaning to details that seem obscure in shorter
versions.
Mike Grost
9417
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:07am
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Thanx for clarifying! I thought "on s'en fout" looked a little
sassy...
>
> Kevin
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9418
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:09am
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Thanx for clarifying! I thought "on s'en fout" looked a little
sassy...
Ignore previous send.
My ex-wife, who is miltantly pro-gay, uses "pede" as an extremely
injurious term, applied only to heterosexual (and macho) men - for
example her first ex-husband. But she's from the South, and they
speak a different language there.
9419
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Chabrol
I'll second Fred Camper's enthusiasm for "The Champagne Murders" (Chabrol).
The apartment scene around 2/3 along is especially well done. The complex set
is in the tradition of the apartment in Les Cousins, but even more
fantastically elaborate. You can watch this repeatedly on tape, and try to orient
oneself in its baroque detail.
The very first shot of "Le Cri du hibou" also has a little of this feel,
although it is not sustained.
I tend to like Chabrol in a lighter mood. Have to agree with Bill Krohn, that
Chabrol's heavier works can tend toward the depressing. Gracefulness,
imagination and a sense of joy are underrtaed cinematic virtues, and they are perhaps
most apparent in Charbrol's more upbeat dramas.
Mike Grost
9420
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:13am
Subject: Re: Director's cut of 'Donnie Darko' to Play at Film Festival
there's an alternate opening to the
> DVD of "Buckaroo Bazai." But it doesn't really add any
> "new" information.
Fox made Richter cut it because they thought BB was the next Star
Wars and they didn't want anything silly at the beginning (the home
movie of little Buckaroo's birthday, seen from his pov: cake,
candles, singing, death of parents.) For years the "director's cut"
passed from hand to hand in the Buckaroo Banzai underground, and I
guess Richter finally told Fox to put it back as an extra scene if
nothing else, but it definitely should be the start of the film.
9421
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:17am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- Adrian Martin wrote:
> Bresson in the closet? Is this news to most of us??
> I cannot recall this
> being previously discussed in the voluminous
> Bressonian literature!! David,
> that is very touching what you say about A MAN
> ESCAPED and its importance to
> you. I would like to hear more about that.
>
I'm writng about it in my memoirs -- currently in
progress. Dennis Cooper ("Frisk," "Risk" and other
Bataille-like gay novels) is particularly crazy about
"Le Diable Probalement" whose beautiful lead, Antoine
Monnier, is Matisse's grandson.
> Godard: doesn't he have a rather complicated
> relation to gayness and
> bisexuality in his life and films? In the first
> sketch of his JLG biography,
> Colin MacCabe wrote that, as a young man, Godard was
> briefly a gay hustler
> on the beach of Copacabana! But this little fact (if
> fact it is) does not
> make it into the book version.
He was out of money and thought he'd give it a try.
Apparently he didn't get very far -- being the world's
worst hustler.
And it seems to me
> that Gorin has said some
> candid things down the years about Godard's mooted
> bisexuality. Certainly,
> in that mid 70s to early 80s period, Godard's films
> are full of gay
> references.
Well Jean-Pierre was awfully cute in those days and
tongues did wag. But as the entire female population
of Southern California will attest J-P was an
inveterate womanizer.
David: are
> you saying or guessing about Roger Tailleur?
I was informed of this many years ago by someine I
can't quite recall at the moment. I asked whatever
happened to Tailleur and was told that he had retired
as a result of the sort of romantic disappointments
older gay men are supposedly heir too. (Though that
certainly wasn't the case with Burroughs and Ginsberg,
and John Ashbery and Kenward Elmslie are as much in
demand as ever.) "The Detective" (un film de Gordon
Douglas) was an especial favorite of Tailleur's.
In the
> anthology of his writing
> (an all-time favourite film book for me) there is
> reference to his love for
> Michele Firk, who some years later killed herself in
> Guatemala so as not to
> be arrested by the cops when she was a militant
> radical (this is gruesomely
> documented in the book GENERATION).
>
Welle there's love and there's love.
> Two pieces of special interest, sex-wise, in POSITIF
> are: the very 'out'
> reminiscence by an early contributor, Albert Bolduc,
> in the 500th issue; and
> the powerful piece by Louis Seguin in no 440,
> October '97, where he talks
> about the 'sexual misery' of the 50s and its
> effects. He mentions the
> veneration by himself, Tailleur and Kyrou for
> certain actresses (Brooks,
> Charisse, etc), and wonders (among other
> interpretations) if it was "the
> visible part, too obvious to be honest, of an
> unavowed homosexuality".
>
Well maybe in the case of Cyd Charisse.
> In present-day French cinema, special mention should
> be made of the
> avant-garde filmmaker Lionel Soukaz, who has
> recently made a big comeback;
> over two decades ago, he collaborated with Guy
> Hocquenghem on some important
> gay films.
>
Wow! Soukaz is still alive? I would have thought he'd
died in the first wave of the epidemic, like
Hocquenhem.
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9422
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:19am
Subject: Re: speaking of sex lives of directors and critics
You would think so, wouldn't you?
No.
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> Wasn't Brian De Palma shtupping Pauline Kael back in
> the day?
>
> -Jaime
>
>
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9423
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:44pm
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
I've often seen Bresson's films as gay-themed.
"A Man is Escaped" is partly a metaphor about the prison of a homophobic
society in which gay peoiple are trapped. The hero tries desparately to escape
from this. It is about gay people's longing for freedom and equality. And the
story of the hero and the other prisoner can be seen as a gay love story.
In "Diary of a Country Priest", the title character seems to be a gay man.
The joyous motorcycle ride he takes with the cyclist is an expression of the
romance that the hero is giving up, first due to his priestly celibacy, and
second, due to his early death. This is perhaps the most lyrical motorcycle scene
in film history.
Mike Grost
9424
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:06am
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> > Thanx for clarifying! I thought "on s'en fout" looked a little
> sassy...
> Ignore previous send.
>
> My ex-wife, who is miltantly pro-gay, uses "pede" as an extremely
> injurious term, applied only to heterosexual (and macho) men - for
> example her first ex-husband. But she's from the South, and they
> speak a different language there.
Well of course lots of people use "pede" as a generic insult to
people they don't like. Same in this country with faggot or whatever.
same everywhere. JPC
9425
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Douchet Interview
The motorcycle ride in "Diary of a Country Priest" is
the hero's sole moment of happiness.
The homoeroticism of the pickpocketing ballet in
"Pickpocket" is fairly obvious.
As for "A Man Escaped," I always imagined Fontaine and
Jost were going to go off into the woods at the end of
the film and make love.
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> I've often seen Bresson's films as gay-themed.
> "A Man is Escaped" is partly a metaphor about the
> prison of a homophobic
> society in which gay peoiple are trapped. The hero
> tries desparately to escape
> from this. It is about gay people's longing for
> freedom and equality. And the
> story of the hero and the other prisoner can be seen
> as a gay love story.
> In "Diary of a Country Priest", the title character
> seems to be a gay man.
> The joyous motorcycle ride he takes with the cyclist
> is an expression of the
> romance that the hero is giving up, first due to his
> priestly celibacy, and
> second, due to his early death. This is perhaps the
> most lyrical motorcycle scene
> in film history.
>
> Mike Grost
>
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9426
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:22am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> Well Jean-Pierre was awfully cute in those days and
> tongues did wag. But as the entire female population
> of Southern California will attest J-P was an
> inveterate womanizer.
>
Well, thanks David, you made my day. I was indeed awfully cute but
how did you know? I was not aware of tongues wagging (except... oh,
forget it). Seen any photos? I wish I had them. Womanizing is the
best cover, right? Ooops, you were speaking about another Jean
Pierre. Sorry! Forget I said anything. JPC
>
> David: are
> > you saying or guessing about Roger Tailleur?
>
> I was informed of this many years ago by someine I
> can't quite recall at the moment
. Let's have names David!!! If RT was homosexual it was the best kept
secret ever.
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
9427
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:28am
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> . Let's have names David!!! If RT was homosexual it
> was the best kept
> secret ever.
>
>
>
>I've got it.
It was Marilyn Goldin.
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9428
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:53am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> >
> > . Let's have names David!!! If RT was homosexual it
> > was the best kept
> > secret ever.
> >
> >
> >
> >I've got it.
>
> It was Marilyn Goldin.
>
>
Who she?
But more importantly, why do we keep discussing sexual preferences
here? What's the relationship to auteurism? Sure, sex can't be
separated from everything else (it sure does raise its ugly head
again and again) but still... I'm getting a little tired of reading
so many posts about who is or was gay and so on. Maybe a sub-group
should be created for people who are especially interested in the
subject. All the closet doors (or most) have been opened by now, so
it's no longer even of gossipy interest. (sorry, didn't intend to
offend anyone).
JPC
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
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9429
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:02am
Subject: Re: Douchet Interview
> As for "A Man Escaped," I always imagined Fontaine and
> Jost were going to go off into the woods at the end of
> the film and make love.
Okay, I'll buy the other stuff, but this doesn't take. If you just
escaped from prison, and if you're as smart as the lead in ESCAPED,
and copulation was on your mind, I think you'd wait until you got a
safe distance from the prison. The woods? NO.
-Jaime
9430
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:04am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
> But more importantly, why do we keep discussing sexual preferences
> here? What's the relationship to auteurism? Sure, sex can't be
> separated from everything else (it sure does raise its ugly head
> again and again) but still... I'm getting a little tired of reading
> so many posts about who is or was gay and so on. Maybe a sub-group
> should be created for people who are especially interested in the
> subject. All the closet doors (or most) have been opened by now, so
> it's no longer even of gossipy interest. (sorry, didn't intend to
> offend anyone).
I agree.
-Jaime
9431
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Re: Re: Douchet Interview
Well I'm just an old-fashioned romantic. If the leads
are gorgeous I want them to make love. Regardless of
gender.
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> > As for "A Man Escaped," I always imagined Fontaine
> and
> > Jost were going to go off into the woods at the
> end of
> > the film and make love.
>
> Okay, I'll buy the other stuff, but this doesn't
> take. If you just
> escaped from prison, and if you're as smart as the
> lead in ESCAPED,
> and copulation was on your mind, I think you'd wait
> until you got a
> safe distance from the prison. The woods? NO.
>
> -Jaime
>
>
__________________________________
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9432
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:26am
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> Who she?
>
Surprised you don't know. She's a screenwriter who has
worked extensively with Bertolucci and Techine.
bertolucci cast her as a flower-seller who sings the
Internationale to Trintignant and Sanda in "The
Conformist."
> But more importantly, why do we keep discussing
> sexual preferences
> here? What's the relationship to auteurism? Sure,
> sex can't be
> separated from everything else (it sure does raise
> its ugly head
> again and again) but still... I'm getting a little
> tired of reading
> so many posts about who is or was gay and so on.
> Maybe a sub-group
> should be created for people who are especially
> interested in the
> subject. All the closet doors (or most) have been
> opened by now, so
> it's no longer even of gossipy interest. (sorry,
> didn't intend to
> offend anyone).
Look J-P, it's all pertinent. We got this Douchet
interview posted and it was loaded with interesting
insights about the NV. How could anyone -- regardless
of sexual orientation -- NOT comment on it?
__________________________________
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9433
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:53am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > >
> > Who she?
> >
> Surprised you don't know. She's a screenwriter who has
> worked extensively with Bertolucci and Techine.
> bertolucci cast her as a flower-seller who sings the
> Internationale to Trintignant and Sanda in "The
> Conformist."
> My ignorance, I confess, is staggering. So that qualifies her to
tell us Tailleur was gay?
>
> > But more importantly, why do we keep discussing
> > sexual preferences
> > here? What's the relationship to auteurism? Sure,
> > sex can't be
> > separated from everything else (it sure does raise
> > its ugly head
> > again and again) but still... I'm getting a little
> > tired of reading
> > so many posts about who is or was gay and so on.
> > Maybe a sub-group
> > should be created for people who are especially
> > interested in the
> > subject. All the closet doors (or most) have been
> > opened by now, so
> > it's no longer even of gossipy interest. (sorry,
> > didn't intend to
> > offend anyone).
>
> Look J-P, it's all pertinent. We got this Douchet
> interview posted and it was loaded with interesting
> insights about the NV. How could anyone -- regardless
> of sexual orientation -- NOT comment on it?
>
>
> I wasn't talking about the Douchet interview (which is interesting
although I didn't learn anything from it)but rather about the
pervasive references on this Line to who is gay on-screen and off and
how delectable gayness is in the movies. Maybe I'm a closet
homophobic after all (although some of my best friends etc...)but I
just get tired of it. Let's say (for argument's sake) that I am a
foot fetishist. I shouldn't be either ashamed or proud about it and I
certainly wouldn't grab any opportunity to vaunt foot fetishism and
its practitioners on this Line (but then a foot-fetishist line would
be most appropriate).
JPC
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
9434
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:09am
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > My ignorance, I confess, is staggering. So that
> qualifies her to
> tell us Tailleur was gay?
Well she's been around a number of blocks. As it was
mentioned (not by me) that someone from "Positif" back
in the day was deep in the closet his name sprang to
mind. That's all.
>
Let's say (for argument's
> sake) that I am a
> foot fetishist. I shouldn't be either ashamed or
> proud about it and I
> certainly wouldn't grab any opportunity to vaunt
> foot fetishism and
> its practitioners on this Line (but then a
> foot-fetishist line would
> be most appropriate).
>
It would make you supremely qualified to discuss Luis
Bunuel.
Especially "Diary of a Chambermiad."
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9435
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
In a message dated 4/27/04 8:54:22 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
> But more importantly, why do we keep discussing sexual preferences
> here?>>
>
I prefer the term "orientations" but oh well.
> What's the relationship to auteurism?>>
>
Well, Mike and David just traced some cris de closet throughout Bresson's
oeuvre. That's auterist enough for me.
> I'm getting a little tired of reading so many posts about who is or was
> gay and so on. Maybe a sub-group should be created for people who are
> especially interested in the subject. >>
>
Oh stop. There haven't been SO many posts on the subject. Do you honestly
believe there have been SOOOO many posts on it to justify a sub-group? Honestly?
> All the closet doors (or most) have been opened by now, so it's no longer
> even of gossipy interest. (sorry, didn't intend to offend anyone).
>
Well, no less estimable a figure as Adrian Martin (I'm not being facetious)
had no idea Bresson was in the closet so I think I was justified in bringing up
sexuality in relation to a major director.
xo,
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9436
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:32am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/27/04 8:54:22 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
>
>
>
> > I'm getting a little tired of reading so many posts about who is
or was
> > gay and so on. Maybe a sub-group should be created for people who
are
> > especially interested in the subject. >>
> >
> Oh stop. There haven't been SO many posts on the subject. Do you
honestly
> believe there have been SOOOO many posts on it to justify a sub-
group? Honestly?
>
No I don't. I was just being sarcastic. But there have been
enough (to my taste). And yes, discussing Bresson's homosexuality is
indeed an auteurist issue. That was not my target.My target was
mostly the constant bringing up of the theme of homosexuality on this
Line by some people -- mainly (pour ne pas le nommer) David (in every
other way a delightful guy!)
> > All the closet doors (or most) have been opened by now, so it's
no longer
> > even of gossipy interest. (sorry, didn't intend to offend
anyone).
> >
> Well, no less estimable a figure as Adrian Martin (I'm not being
facetious)
> had no idea Bresson was in the closet so I think I was justified in
bringing up
> sexuality in relation to a major director.
>
> Right. Again, I wasn't thinking about this issue. JPC
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9437
From:
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
In a message dated 4/27/04 10:19:05 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
> I wasn't talking about the Douchet interview...but rather about the
> pervasive references on this Line to who is gay on-screen and off and how delectable
> gayness is in the movies. Maybe I'm a closet
> homophobic after all (although some of my best friends etc...)but I just get
> tired of it.
>
Hey look, I get tired of it too. I always say that one of the worst things
about being gay is being gay (or rather, having to be gay). But tough crunchies
(for both of us). Skip the identity politics. We can bring it down to pure
economics. I've gotten most of my paying writing gigs on the backs of other gay
men (no jokes, please) as well as a promotion in a different line of work and
one (NOT the only) of the reasons is because I am openly gay. Sometimes making
pervasive references to sexuality is a matter of putting food on the table.
Sometimes not. I've been lucky.
Of course, no one "has" to reference heterosexuality. It just is. But I'm
VERY much in favor of outing people as heterosexual with all the (potentially
liberating) awkwardness that implies.
<
either ashamed or proud about it and I certainly wouldn't grab any opportunity
to vaunt foot fetishism and its practitioners on this Line (but then a
foot-fetishist line would be most appropriate).>>
Well, here's another item for your Too Much Information file - I'm a foot
fetishist. I shouldn't be either ashamed or proud about that or being gay or
anything else. Nevertheless, from time to time, I HAVE been made to feel ashamed
about being gay forcing me to periodically claim pride (I hate that word but
it'll serve). That's the difference. Furthermore, there is no system of
oppression in place (that I'm aware of) that would posit coming out as a foot
fetishist as an act of empowerment. There is, for instance, no amendment to the US
constitution being proposed to prevent foot fetishists (well, at least
heterosexual ones) from marrying one another and receiving insurance benefits,
visitation rights and the like.
C'mon J-P, you know all this............right?
Kevin
9438
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:51am
Subject: Re: Chabrol (from script to screen)
Adrian asks: "I would be interested to hear if other list members have had
that nicely
disconcerting script-to-screen experience: reading a script, imagining not
much of a movie, and then being surprised at what the director actually
achieved in bringing it to life."
I haven't actually had the opportunity very often to read a film's script
prior to seeing the film itself. Of course, I HAVE often had the experience of
reading about the plot or concept of a film prior to seeing it; this strikes me
as an analogous experience to what you describe. But I can't say that I'm
often surprised, as such, by what a good director brings to a script I hadn't
seen much in; as an auteurist, it's kind of what I'm looking for.
That isn't to say that all scripts are created equal, just that the script
usually isn't the make-or-break component for me; in other words, the several
poor Chabrol films I've seen are poor, I think, because of what Chabrol does or
doesn't do - not because of their scripts.
On the topic of Chabrol, I have to chime in and say that I think he's a
pretty major filmmaker. Maybe I'd even go so far as to say that his films are the
best - cinematically speaking - of all of the directors of the French New
Wave. I'm not prepared to back that bit of hyperbole up, but the best Chabrol
films - "Les Bonnes Femmes," "Le Boucher," "The Unfaithful Wife," "Ten Days
Wonder," and the masterful "Merci pour le chocolat" - strike me as so exquisitiely
conceived as film: the framing, the movement of the camera, the montage, even
the opticals add up to a very richly satisfying visual experience, one without
any 'dead spots' in the mise en scene. I can understand what Bill means when
he says he finds the films depressing, but in a way I have the opposite
experience: they are so beautifully made that I find them kind of exhilarating.
I haven't seen near enough to comment with authority on whether he's
inconsistent or not. I have seen a few Chabrol films that didn't bowl me over (his
"Madame Bovary" comes to mind), but I think the ones I name above are about as
good as it gets.
Filipe, as you probably know, Gabe wrote a terrific piece on "Merci pour le
chocolat" for 24FPS, in which he attempted to deal with it as a 'minor work'
which nonetheless has major virtues. I just saw "The Flower of Evil" and it's
quite not up to this level, although still quite wonderful in many respects.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9439
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 0:57am
Subject: Huston
I know we have some Huston fans on this group (something rather rare for an
auteurist-based group!), so I wondered if anyone here likes his film of "Moby
Dick." I saw it again recently (mainly to view Welles' wonderful performance
as Father Mapple - that's about the best delivered sermon I've ever heard!) and
was surprised to find that I rather liked it. It's a new thing for me,
liking a pre-1972 Huston film, alas.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9440
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:59am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
>
> Look J-P, it's all pertinent. We got this Douchet
> interview posted and it was loaded with interesting
> insights about the NV. How could anyone -- regardless
> of sexual orientation -- NOT comment on it?
Homosexuality is a gigantic hot button issue in our society, and in
French society and in most others from which films come to us - in
some of them you can still be killed for it. Of COURSE it's pertinent
to talk about it in films, in filmmakers and in critics, if it's more
than gossip. Thinking of the hero of Country Priest as a gay man is
an interesting thought experiment, for example.
I'm writing about An Andalusian Dog, and you can't write about that
film without getting into issues of cross-dressing, repressed
polymorphous perversity, fear of the vagina dentata and so on. And
these symbols tie in to Dali's and Bunuel's complicated, conflicted
attitudes toward homosexuality in general and their close friend
Lorca, who thought the film was an insult aimed at him, in
particular.
We live in a world constructed around hierarchical distinctions -
binary differences that are put-downs: gay/straight, woman/man,
black/white, and that old favorite Jew/Aryan. This makes the terms on
the left side of the slash mark hot-button topics whether they appear
in films overtly, obliquely or in some cases through their total
absence.
When I attended screenings at the Yale Film Club, founded by
Cahierists Rick Edelman and Marty Rubin, there was a loony who used
to hand out flyers before screenings of Shock Corridor denouncing the
Cahiers as a gay conspiracy. The fact is, Daney was the magazine's
first gay editor-in-chief, and to come out he had to move to
Liberation. (Pun intended.) Now, finally, it's accepted at the
magazine, along with the idea that one can have more than one
brilliant token woman critic at a time on the editorial board. (And
still I got an e-mail from a French friend LAST YEAR who was outraged
at the gay references in J-M Lalanne's article about visiting Van
Sant in Orgeon!) All this is highly pertinent to what's been written
in the magazine and is being written now; ditto Positif; ditto Adonis
Kyrou and on and on. And very much ditto Bunuel, Welles, Bresson,
Hawks and just about every male director I can think of. (BTW, I've
never been too sure what "Down with the Republic of cowards" MEANS!)
On the subject of Bunuel, it's interesting that Douchet wrote, at the
time of Bunuel's death, that he was one of the anti-Bunuel Young
Turks (Bazin and Co. being fierce devotees of the trilogy, Los
Olvidados, El and the rest) until he came to terms with his own
sexuality. That's some kind of tribute to Bunuel, who as a young man
was a typical product of upperclass Aragonian redneck society - ie a
homophobe. Bunuel got past that, and when Douchet came out he
recognized in Bunuel a cinematic exponent of liberty, whereas before
he'd seen him as symbol-laden and doctrinaire and esthetically
incorrect.
9441
From: filipefurtado
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:04am
Subject: Re: Chabrol (from script to screen)
I rarely read scripts because I
usually find them boring and
uninteristing. I can imagine given The
Heart of the Lie plot and dialogue
that it may have look like third rate
Chabrol on paper (the same goes to The
Yards which I'm very fond of; Adrian
you're right on the evidence of Yards
and Little Odessa, James Gray should
make films more often). But I do have
the habit of reading books when I
learn that a filmmaker I like is
adapting them which can be very
curiously (both in a positive and on a
negative way).
> That isn't to say that all scripts are created equal, just that the script
> usually isn't the make-or-break component for me; in other words, the several
> poor Chabrol films I've seen are poor, I think, because of what Chabrol does or
> doesn't do - not because of their scripts.
You're right. Chabrol i talented
enough to lift bad writing. When I
mentioned earlier that he wasn't luck
with projects in the mid70's , I
didn't want to say that they were bad
films only thanks to the script, it
was obviously Chabrol's fault. What
happens in those films is that Chabrol
in face of the bad quality of the
projects got lazy (as Adrian says the
man can be very sloppy sometimes). I
get the impression that this sort of
thing happens very often with prolific
filmmakers tht works for hire like
Chabrol.
>
> Filipe, as you probably know, Gabe wrote a terrific piece on "Merci pour le
> chocolat" for 24FPS, in which he attempted to deal with it as a 'minor work'
> which nonetheless has major virtues. I just saw "The Flower of Evil" and it's
> quite not up to this level, although still quite wonderful in many respects.
Yes, I've read it, it's really
terrific. It was actually there that I
read about he calling it a minor film.
Filipe
---
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
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9442
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:06am
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I know we have some Huston fans on this group (something rather
rare for an
> auteurist-based group!), so I wondered if anyone here likes his
film of "Moby
> Dick."
It's been too long. (I do love the Friz Freleng or Bob Kimson cartoon
where Daffy is trapped on a ship like the Pequod with a mad captain
hunting a whale named "Dickey Moe," however.) There's a whole book by
Ray Bradbury about his experiences in Ireland during the making-of.
9443
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:31am
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I know we have some Huston fans on this group (something rather
rare for an
> auteurist-based group!), so I wondered if anyone here likes his
film of "Moby
> Dick." I saw it again recently (mainly to view Welles' wonderful
performance
> as Father Mapple - that's about the best delivered sermon I've
ever heard!) and
> was surprised to find that I rather liked it. It's a new thing
for me,
> liking a pre-1972 Huston film, alas.
>
> Peter
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The motivation for the great performance was 2-3 bottles of
brandy. :)
Huston is a great filmmaker. I have always loved his films (I belive
I have most, if not all of them) and recently when WB
restored "Treasure of Sierra Madre" I had the chance to rediscover
him all over, leading me to watch his films again.
At the center of his auteurism, stands the mirror image of Huston
himself: The protagonist who is outside and above society, not so
much by defiance, but more because the rules just dont count for
him.
I don't understand how you possible cannot like any Huston before
1972: Maltese Falcon, Asphalt Jungle, The Misfits, Moby Dick,
African Queen, The Tresure of Sierra Madre, Key Largo, The Night of
the Iguana and Reflection in a Golden Eye. If anything 1972 (or
1975) is when Huston stops making film, and despite the obsure
attempt to promote "Wiseblood" as his masterpiece (by some), only
his last three films carry the Huston signature.
Henrik
9444
From: filipefurtado
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:17am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
>
> I don't understand how you possible cannot like any Huston before
> 1972:
Maltese Falcon is fine.
The Misfits is grotesque.
Moby Dick is a very weak adaptation.
African Queen seems to be screaming
for someone like Walsh.
Key Largo few good moments are when
it's trying to be a second-rate To
Have and Have Not.
Reflections on Golden Eye is very good.
Haven't seen the others.
I think he did good and bad through
his whole career, the goods one are
really good, the bads are truly bad.
But the guy did Fat City and The Dead
which are enough to pardon 20 stinkers
each.
Filipe
, The Night of
> the Iguana and Reflection in a Golden Eye. If anything 1972 (or
> 1975) is when Huston stops making film, and despite the obsure
> attempt to promote "Wiseblood" as his masterpiece (by some), only
> his last three films carry the Huston signature.
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
---
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br
9445
From: Hadrian
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:05am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
Wow, despite Cahier's legendary dislike of Huston, I'm still really
surprised to find Huston in such lukewarm standing. To me,
he's made so many really good films that demonstrate a
complete understanding of the cinematic tinker-toy set, and a
such a clear intelligence for understanding and interpreting
literature (thanks bill for that interesting aside about it some
posts back), that i couldn't understand dismissing him so
quickly.
His first several films are all quite good. Key Largo is a real
expansion on the already relatively invisible, yet extremely mobile
camera of Maltese Falcolns (I always loved the shot where
Bacall closes all the storm windows in anticipation of the
hurricane in the background as Huston tours the rooms
characters). Treasure of the Sierra Madre, the same year, is a
fantastic adaptation, full of atmosphere, humor, and fantastic
performances....you can roll right into the 50's nicely with Asphalt
Jungle and Red Badge of Courage. And yes, I remember Moby
Dick as pretty a surprisingly good adaption, considering it was a
50 studio adaptation of an incredibly difficult book (what do
expect, Claire Denis)
It's true there's large streaks haphazard cinema in Huston's
career, that seemed to just signify Huston's haphazard interest
in directing. On the Catch-22 audio commentary there's a very
funny story Mike Nichols tells of bumping into Huston in Italy,
apparently placing bets on a phone. Huston was shooting an
awful film, The Mackintosh Man, and when Nichols asked how it
was going, it was filming that very minute! Huston apparently
didn't even care to be on set. Something about a movie directing
itself.
I sometimes imagined he just tired of his new toy in middle age,
and regained interest in his winter years. The filmmaking gets
sloppier and more disinterested, undeniably I think –we all know
the legendary stories of his picking movies for their locations.
And while it doesn't fit our typical romantic ideal of the director
that he not really prioritiz directing in his life, I certainly don't think=
that makes him untalented.
And when he seems to care it can be pretty wonderful. "Fat City"
is a favorite boxing film of mine; sensitive and accurate feeling.
Great title sequence (alternate version of Kristofferson song)…I
could keep listing ones I liked, but you get the idea.
I won't deny a little partiality here. Huston, by the fluke of a
documentary I came across as a teenager, one of the first
directors I ever knew by name, and bothered to watch films
because he made them. But I can't help but think we should all
try and see films with such hopeful eyes. I'm sure that many a
Walsh fan, encountered him that way, and with such generosity..
And for the record, I don't think Walsh's African Queen would
have been nearly as funny, or charming.
9446
From: Hadrian
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:25am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
I don't think a director's sexuality somewhat relevant, but
extremely. I mean if we're sitting here interpreting films as seen
through the lens of the director's personality, it's as noticable a
trait as any, and as much a pleasure of getting to know them as
any. When I think of Hawks, I have a totally consistent image of
what he thinks is attractive in women (and emphasizes), and it's
part of what I enjoy about his films…the same goes for directors
from as crass to Russ Meyer to as class as Hitchcock's
blondes. Speaking of Hitchcock a directors fetishes are very
telling into their world view –the obvious voyeurs, the sadists
(how does S & M relate to all those rules in the Von Trier films?),
or yes, the foot fetishes. Recently a friend of mine who used to
work at Video Archives broke down all the loving foot-age in
Tarantino's films, and it started my mind reeling on the larger
scope….His fascination with strong, ass-kicking chicks took on
new meaning. He does love that Pam Grier.
I know I'll do some murderous paraphrasing here, but isn't there
a saying that the three things civillized society doesn't talk about
in public are politics, religion, and sex; and what are the
obsessions of most great geniuses? Politics. Religion. Sex.
9447
From: filipefurtado
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:32am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
I don't want to dismiss him, I like
some of his films, probably more than
most auteurists, but I think his 50's
output to be truly very bad most of
the time.
>
>On the Catch-22 audio commentary there's a very
> funny story Mike Nichols tells of bumping into Huston in Italy,
> apparently placing bets on a phone. Huston was shooting an
> awful film, The Mackintosh Man, and when Nichols asked how it
> was going, it was filming that very minute! Huston apparently
> didn't even care to be on set. Something about a movie directing
> itself.
>
Two things: I don't think Huston's
lack of professionalism is a problem
in itself, Rossellini according to Tag
Gallagher's biography did those sort
of things too, but he could get away
with it, while Huston certainly sunk
some jobs that less talented and
personal filmmakers like Hathaway
would have done just fine. Also
there's something wrong with Nichols
story as Mackintosh Man (a pretty bad
spy film) was released in 73. It may
have being shot arround the same time
as Catch-22 and ended on the shelf for
three years (it's bad enough to make
they do that), but since Newman did
Roy Bean with Huston arould 72/73, it
would make more sense that Mackintosh
had been shot around the same time.
For the reccord, Huston is a good
filmmaker, he is overrated in many
quarters and probably underrated in
most auteurist circles in reaction to
that. He probably made more bad films
than good ones, but the good show that
when he wants he could be pretty good.
But he did have problems to express
himself and most of his films even the
better ones usually have moments that
are better thought than shot, which
may be why I usually never care to his
more technical exercises.
Filipe
---
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br
9448
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:43am
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
hotlove666 wrote:
>When I attended screenings at the Yale Film Club, founded by
>Cahierists Rick Edelman and Marty Rubin,
>
I think you mean Robert Edelstein. Robert is my oldest friend (since age
11), Marty since about 19. But it's the Yale Film Society, and it
existed before the two of them, for some years before I believe.
In general I agree with your and David E's and Kevin's comments on the
relevance of orientation. I would add two caveats: the standard four
choices announced by the most liberal voices today, "gay, lesbian, bi
and trans," don't really those people for whom orientation has never
been, or felt, all that stable. I know a woman film critic who used to
be straight, and then became a militant lesbian. I know a woman artist
who has always identified as a lesbian, and paints naked ladies. Then
she met a man who was "different" from all the others, fell in love with
him, and married him. They had sex the usual way, and produced two
children. During all this time she continued to paint naked women. Then
they broke up, and her next lover was a woman. So, what was she when she
was married. A lesbian married to a man, I think, but lots of lesbians
simply wouldn't allow that identification, and would insist she was bi.
The other caveat, which I'd guess most everyone here would agree with,
is that there are many factors other than sexual orientation that go
into an individual's make-up, and that orientation is more important to
some individuals than to others. That Kenneth Anger is gay is not
exactly something one should avoid in discussing his films; I'm not sure
how relevant Harry Smith's gayness is to his "Early Abstractions,"
though I'm not saying it's irrelevant either, just that it probably
shouldn't be one's main focus. And indeed, I don 't think Anger's
orientation should necessarily be one's main focus either, any more than
Brakhage's heterosexuality should, though I agree with Kevin that it
shouldn't be neglected completely either.
Human sexuality has many more varieties than the possibilities that can
be summed up in four or five words. I'm not saying it's not relevant,
but sometimes the info on an artist's orientation has been used rather
stupidly. I don't think I've seen it used stupidly in our group, though.
- Fred C.
9449
From: Hadrian
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:51am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
Well, we're pretty much in agreement. I wasn't trying to say
Huston was a genius consumate with Welles, Hitchcock, etc
--just that he's good. As for the more bad than good idea, I don't
really agree. I may be more forgiving than most, but he doesn't
seem to have an exceptionally high miss ratio to me...especially
since I think a lot of auteur favorites are given an outrageous
amount of leeway, and actually have quite a few films that don't
work for anyone but the fans. Also, I was trying to say that
Huston had really good runs of films at the beginning and end of
his carrer, and if you snipped out the middle chunk , it would be
pretty impressive.
I don't really know the quarters he's overrated, just the
underrated ones. I've never met someone rabid with Huston
affection --so far I'm about as cuddly as anyone I've met.
As for the Nichols story --well either Nichols or me probably
didn't have remembered clearly. I'm thinking it must have been
"The Kremlin Letter".
>
> For the reccord, Huston is a good
> filmmaker, he is overrated in many
> quarters and probably underrated in
> most auteurist circles in reaction to
> that. He probably made more bad films
> than good ones, but the good show that
> when he wants he could be pretty good.
> But he did have problems to express
> himself and most of his films even the
> better ones usually have moments that
> are better thought than shot, which
> may be why I usually never care to his
> more technical exercises.
>
> Filipe
>
>
> ---
> Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
> AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
> http://antipopup.uol.com.br
9450
From: Hadrian
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
> most of his films even the
> better ones usually have moments that
> are better thought than shot, which
> may be why I usually never care to his
> more technical exercises.
>
I'm not arguing, but i'm genuinely curious if you have a couple of
examples. That's an interesting comment.
9451
From: Hadrian
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:05am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
The summary for me is that is just the rather obvious: I believe
biographical information to be enriching to a films enjoyment.
I don't take this thesis for granted; Mr. Campers observations of
the irrelevance it can have on abstract filmmakers like Brakhage
or Harry Smith is well taken. But his personal habits might not
seem as irrelevant; having known a couple artist/speed addicts,
it certainly helped me place his work a bit more when i found out
about his addiction.
i'm sure there's some real history to this discussion that some of
the more academic members might be able to help elucidate.
some kind of classic ritical value argument ...do you interperet a
work completely on it's on values or on it's contextual
relationship with other works by the same creator, etc...
and...Does anyone have particularly annoying examples of
stupid reviewing based on knowledge of a director's sexuality?
I remember being particularly offput by Scott Foundas unfair
review of Elephant, where acted annoyed that Van Sant had cast
so many pretty young boys in his films, as if it had somehow
upset some kind of natural balance.
9452
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:13am
Subject: Re: Huston
Very much enjoying people's posts on Huston.
Three films of his really liked here:
In This Our Life
Key Largo
The Dead
All three of these are fairly intimate, personal dramas. "In This Our Life"
is full of all sorts of unexpected elements. It has a truly admirable character
played by Olivia de Haviland, who shows a really constructive attitude
towards life - a good role model! It also has some of the best pro-Civil Rights
commentary in early Hollywood film.
"The Dead" conveys what civilzation is. It is modest, but trenchant in
standing up for what counts. Have seen suggestions that it was co-directed with
Huston's son, Danny Huston. I also liked D. Huston's "Mr. North", a pleasant
comedy gem.
Also enjoyed "The List of Adrian Messenger" when seen as a little kid - keep
meaning to track it down again. (Also liked the title of Get Smart's parody,
"The Mess of Adrian Listenger". Now THERE's a piece that should go into Bill
Krohn's forthcoming serial killer book. Other comedies with serial killers: "The
Wrong Box" (Brian Forbes), "Drôle de drame" (Marcel Carné).)
More negatively, did not enjoy "Across the Pacific", "The Asphalt Jungle",
"Beat the Devil". Have never seen his "Moby Dick". An odd note: the movie title
apparently has no hyphen, whereas Melville's novel "Moby-Dick" does. Melville
is one of my favorite writers. Have read "Pierre", but have not seen the Leos
Carax film "POLA X". Also love Melville's literary disciple William Henry
Hudson ("The Purple Land", "Green Mansions").
Mike Grost
9453
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:02pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
.
>
> C'mon J-P, you know all this............right?
>
> Kevin
>
> I do and you're right. I overreacted. I won't do it again. Fine
post. (PS: any good foot fetishist sites on the web?)
JPC
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9454
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> Of course, no one "has" to reference
> heterosexuality. It just is.
As it so insistently reminds us.
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9455
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
--- Henrik Sylow wrote:
>
> At the center of his auteurism, stands the mirror
> image of Huston
> himself: The protagonist who is outside and above
> society, not so
> much by defiance, but more because the rules just
> dont count for
> him.
>
That's Huston in a nutshell. Consequently it's not
surprising that his career is all over the map in
terms of quality."The Maltese Falcon" is of course
teriffic. And in his sadly-little-read film book "The
Devil Finds Work," James Baldwin has some insightful
things to say about "In This Our Life." I haven't
seen "Moby Dick" in years. Found it interesting in
spots, but Melville's nearly impossible to adapt
(thought Leos Carax's "POLA X" is a nice try.) As for
the rest of Huston I'm crazy about "Beat the Devil"
and "Prizzi's Honor" (comparable to one another in
many ways) and I greatly admire "Reflections in a
Golden Eye," "Treasure of the Sierra Madre," "The
Kremlin Letter," "Moulin Rouge" "Wise Blood" and "The
Man Who Would Be King."
He goes out on the highest of high notes with "The
Dead" (one of my favorite Christmas movies, among
other things.)
I started crying when the opening credits of that one rolled.
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9456
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:34pm
Subject: Re: Huston
Moby Dick seems to downplay Huston's irony (at least at first) in
favor of building an unexpected gravitas, certainly helped by the
handsome production design and the sepia-like color. To me the film
shrivels from the miscasting of Gregory Peck, who doesn't have
the vocal control to put across the Biblical language (in the part
Welles should have played, of course), while the last half hour or so
feels rushed, as if Huston just wanted to get the whole troublesome
production over with. Still, there is much to enjoy.
Although it's admittedly grotesque and overwhelmed by the actors'
biographies, The Misfits seems endlessly fascinating as a kind of
companion to Fat City, featuring a similar band of losers who have
reached the end of the line. The shrill outbursts of Marilyn Monroe's
divorcee are echoed by the shrill nagging of the Susan Tyrell wino,
while Gable's cowboy finds his profession disintegrating under him
much like Stacy Keach's boxer. The narcotized tone is not something
we expect from mainstream Hollywood, but the dialogue is
loaded with gems and Alex North's score has a tragic yearning quality
that helps a lot. Huston stages The Misfits indifferently, I think,
but the movie is now some kind of artifact in a class of its own.
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I know we have some Huston fans on this group (something rather
rare for an
> auteurist-based group!), so I wondered if anyone here likes his
film of "Moby
> Dick." I saw it again recently (mainly to view Welles' wonderful
performance
> as Father Mapple - that's about the best delivered sermon I've ever
heard!) and
> was surprised to find that I rather liked it. It's a new thing for
me,
> liking a pre-1972 Huston film, alas.
>
> Peter
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9457
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- Hadrian wrote:
>
> I remember being particularly offput by Scott
> Foundas unfair
> review of Elephant, where acted annoyed that Van
> Sant had cast
> so many pretty young boys in his films, as if it had
> somehow
> upset some kind of natural balance.
>
I was annoyed by that too. has anyone ever objected to
Truffaut or Godard casting pretty girls in their
movies?
What's the point of becoming a movie director anyway?
John Robinson's beauty is essential "Elephant" in many
complex ways. But getting back to the neglected
heterosexuals on the list, I ran into Julie Delpy at
"Cityof Lights/ City of Angels" event here in
L.A.andwasimmediately reminded of "Detective." There
she was romping in a Paris hotel with Johnny Halliday.
And who's along for the ride with her? Future Polanski
spouse Emmanuelle Seigneur!
There's so much feminine beauty on display in that
film it's practically a catalogue.
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9458
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
--- Robert Keser wrote:
The Misfits seems endlessly fascinating
> as a kind of
> companion to Fat City, featuring a similar band of
> losers who have
> reached the end of the line.
Quite.
The shrill outbursts of
> Marilyn Monroe's
> divorcee are echoed by the shrill nagging of the
> Susan Tyrell wino,
> while Gable's cowboy finds his profession
> disintegrating under him
> much like Stacy Keach's boxer.
An excellent point. I always liked Monroe's big
shrilloutburst, mianly because there's so little in
film quitelike it.
The narcotized tone
> is not something
> we expect from mainstream Hollywood, but the
> dialogue is
> loaded with gems and Alex North's score has a tragic
> yearning quality
> that helps a lot.
And not ust a narcotized tone. There's one shot in
which Monroe seems to be actually passing out just
before the cut.
Huston stages The Misfits
> indifferently, I think,
> but the movie is now some kind of artifact in a
> class of its own.
>
I don't find thre staging indifferent at all. But it's
clear that "The Misfits" is in a class all it's own --
a mongrel with numerous auteurs.
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9459
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:50pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- Hadrian wrote:
>>
> What's the point of becoming a movie director anyway?
Religious people become flagellants, cinephiles become directors.
The H
9460
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:16pm
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
I always liked Monroe's big
> shrilloutburst, mianly because there's so little in
> film quitelike it.
Right. It's a kind of primal scream torn out of the person rather
than acted. It's embarrassingly personal in a way that Cassavetes
could only aspire to (not that Huston was aspiring to it either!)
>
> The narcotized tone
> > is not something
> > we expect from mainstream Hollywood, but the
> > dialogue is
> > loaded with gems and Alex North's score has a tragic
> > yearning quality
> > that helps a lot.
>
> And not just a narcotized tone. There's one shot in
> which Monroe seems to be actually passing out just
> before the cut.
Hah! Do you recall which shot (or which sequence)? Some would say
half her scenes would qualify, not least the final scene in the car
, where she gives that starry-eyed look at Gable that could pass for
either love or Thorazine. I've always thought her head was resting
against the car seat because she *couldn't* hold it up at that point.
>
> Huston stages The Misfits
> > indifferently, I think,
> > but the movie is now some kind of artifact in a
> > class of its own.
> >
>
> I don't find the staging indifferent at all. But it's
> clear that "The Misfits" is in a class all it's own --
> a mongrel with numerous auteurs.
>
What I had in mind were the (seemingly heavily cut) scenes of Estelle
Winwood hustling for donations and the barely credible scenes
of Clift at the rodeo. Even the great duologue between Clift and MM,
where she cradles his head in her lap, feels detached to me. And
then Huston glomming on MM's posterior as she plays paddle-ball
(intercut with shots of leering bystanders) always strikes me as a
betrayal of the actress. Talk about male gaze!
But mongrel is an excellent description
--Robert Keser
9461
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
--- Robert Keser wrote:
>
> Hah! Do you recall which shot (or which sequence)?
> Some would say
> half her scenes would qualify, not least the final
> scene in the car
> , where she gives that starry-eyed look at Gable
> that could pass for
> either love or Thorazine.
Hah! Is it Love or is it Thorazine? That's the key
question when it comes to Marilyn Monroe.
I can't quite recall where the shot I'm thinking of it
splaced, but it's a scene where she's seated in a car
with several other actors. She doesn't have any lines
in the particular shot. I think it's Gable talking to
somebody or other. She looks as glassy as a figurine.
I've always thought her
> head was resting
> against the car seat because she *couldn't* hold it
> up at that point.
> >
Yep.
> What I had in mind were the (seemingly heavily cut)
> scenes of Estelle
> Winwood hustling for donations and the barely
> credible scenes
> of Clift at the rodeo. Even the great duologue
> between Clift and MM,
> where she cradles his head in her lap, feels
> detached to me. And
> then Huston glomming on MM's posterior as she plays
> paddle-ball
> (intercut with shots of leering bystanders) always
> strikes me as a
> betrayal of the actress. Talk about male gaze!
>
Well maybe. But the thing about the film that's so
fascinating is the way that certain moments appear to
be in Huston's complete control (everythign with Gable
and Eli Wallach) and others are him simply sitting
back and letting things happen. The Clift-Monroe scene
is one of them.
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9462
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:01pm
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> I can't quite recall where the shot I'm thinking of it
> is placed, but it's a scene where she's seated in a car
> with several other actors. She doesn't have any lines
> in the particular shot. I think it's Gable talking to
> somebody or other. She looks as glassy as a figurine.
Okay, I know exactly the shot: it's Clift's introduction as he's
waiting at the phone booth (in the desert!). Gable stops the car and
introduces Clift to everyone, and there's the close-up of MM silent
but beatifically simpering.
>
> But the thing about the film that's so
> fascinating is the way that certain moments appear to
> be in Huston's complete control (everythign with Gable
> and Eli Wallach) and others are him simply sitting
> back and letting things happen. The Clift-Monroe scene
> is one of them.
Huston controlled what he could! But he was certainly behind the
staging of Gable in drunken desperation clambering up on a car and
then falling off, his face in the dirt. This wasn't the image his
fans wanted, but I think it's an unexpected high point among his
performances.
--Robert Keser
9463
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:04pm
Subject: Huston
Huston is one of the very few directors (and perhaps the only major
one -- if it's permissible to call him "major" on an auteurist Line!)
about whom I changed my mind to a considerable degree over the
years/decades. I never went along with the Rohmer dictum that "It is
extremely difficult to love both Huston and the cinema" but in the
fifties I felt most of his best-known movies were greatly overrated --
although I always loved The Asphalt Jungle. "Sierra Madre" was
preachy and heavy-handed, "The African Queen" always seemed cramped
to me, looking as though it had been filmed on the backlot (there
never was much sense, or even acknowledgment, of space in the early
films, they tended to be claustrophobic, good or bad)... "Moulin
Rouge" was and is atrocious, so were the Fox/Zanuck outings... But
then there was the delightful "Beat the Devil ." Was it a fluke?
There was also the more successful rehash of "African Queen" in the
delightful "Heaven Knows, Mr Allison"...It became difficult to know
what to think about Huston. He was a director with a strong thematics
but without a style. He was the most uneven director you'd ever
seen. He would follow a highly original effort with a completely
commercial one. or vice versa. And it would continue that way till
the end.
Was there a turning point in his career? Hard to tell. perhaps with
the much underrated "Freud", although his other sixties movies
continued to alternate the good ("Night of the Iguana", "Reflections
in a Golden Eye") with the mediocre or awful. Then Huston takes you
completely by surprise with "Fat City", "Wise Blood", "The Man Who
Would be King" -- Huston is in his sixties and finally makes young,
modern, completely personal movies eschewing the didactic self-
consciousness of the early films. Finally "The Dead" -- as unique a
film as "The Night of the Hunter", and an absolute marvel. There
hasn't been another career like Huston's (I wonder what Rohmer thinks
of "The Dead").
9464
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:06pm
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
"I know we have some Huston fans on this group (something rather rare
for an auteurist-based group!), so I wondered if anyone here likes
his film of "Moby Dick." I saw it again recently (mainly to view
Welles' wonderful performance as Father Mapple - that's about the
best delivered sermon I've ever heard!) and was surprised to find
that I rather liked it."
I liked it too, but not such much as a movie but as a kind
of "Classics Illustrated" adaptation. ("Classics Illustrated" was a
comic book series that adapted books in the public domain in the
1950s and '60s.) Huston's version compares favorably with the lengthy
Robert Halmi-produced TV version; it's very impressive graphically
when seen on a theatre screen (though Huston's color scheme is only
decorative.) Robert is right when he says Peck's performance is a
major weakness. Finally I agree with Sarris's observation that
Huston should have played Ahab and let Orson Welles direct.
Richard
P.S. Peck played Father Mapple in the TV version.
9465
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Huston
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Robert Keser wrote:
>
> >
> > Hah! Do you recall which shot (or which sequence)?
> > Some would say
> > half her scenes would qualify, not least the final
> > scene in the car
> > , where she gives that starry-eyed look at Gable
> > that could pass for
> > either love or Thorazine.
>
> Hah! Is it Love or is it Thorazine?
>
Aren't they the same?
9466
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:34pm
Subject: Dairy of a Country Priest lyrical
Thanks for citing this example. I watched DoaCP a few days
back and felt the 'lyricism' (a term I find hard to describe or
cite references to... if you have others, please mention)
of the motorcycle scene. I found it a simple "joie de vie" so
very absent from the very rest of the movie.
Elizabeth
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I've often seen Bresson's films as gay-themed.
> In "Diary of a Country Priest", the title character seems to be a gay man.
> The joyous motorcycle ride he takes with the cyclist is an expression of the
> romance that the hero is giving up, first due to his priestly celibacy, and
> second, due to his early death. This is perhaps the most lyrical motorcycle scene
> in film history.
>
> Mike Grost
9467
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:32pm
Subject: Dairy of a Country Priest BRESSON
The sexuality of the priest in DoaCP for me was one of total
repression, neither homosexual or heterosexual. I may be wrong
but I imagine at the time it was probably more common to see
a man ride on the back of motorbike than to see a woman ride on
the back of motorbike.
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:41pm
Subject: An Andalusian Dog
> I'm writing about An Andalusian Dog, and you can't write about that
> film without getting into issues of cross-dressing
If you're talking about the scene when the man riding a bicycle
is wearing a frilly apron, etc, I took it to just meaning the man
wanted to get under the woman's clothes... wanted to have sex
with her. I did not see it as cross-dressing, per se.
I guess people see what they want to see.
Elizabeth
9469
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:44pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
Does anyone have particularly annoying examples of
> stupid reviewing based on knowledge of a director's sexuality?
>
> I remember being particularly offput by Scott Foundas unfair
> review of Elephant, where acted annoyed that Van Sant had cast
> so many pretty young boys in his films, as if it had somehow
> upset some kind of natural balance.
I wrote my first and only letter to the editor of the LA Weekly
griping about a Manohla Dargis capsule on Tigerland that did that. I
know that this particular director's sexuality is out there and
pertinent, but this was a snickering dismissal that didn't talk about
the film, which Andy Klein reviewed at length - and panned - by
comparing it to other Vietnam films, and so on. I thought Andy's
approach was correct, and Darghis's was lazy...at best.
Then there's Gregory Weinkauf of the late great LA Reader, who
reviewed Jeepers Creepers before seeing it by hauling out Victor
Salva's rap sheet. This one was beyond the pale - it excoriated
Coppola for producing the film and MGM for financing it. Then when
Weinkauf had seen the film he wrote an even uglier description of the
elements in it that relate to Victor's conviction for having sex with
the underage star of Clownhouse, his first feature. Those elements
are there because Victor more or less consciously put them there, but
this was a review by someone for whom the mea culpa was an
unconscious exposure of things that made him want to kill. Director
Stephen Norrington actually wrote a long letter which the Reader
published because he's a celebrity of sorts describing this as "crap
criticism."
I think that all-turniphead critics succumb to these temptations more
often than their 50 cent competitors, who no doubt share their
prejudices, because all-turniphead papers don't censor sexual
content. So sometimes we get these unpleasant little snapshots of the
critics' sexual problems in place of criticism.
9470
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Dairy of a Country Priest BRESSON
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
> The sexuality of the priest in DoaCP for me was one
> of total
> repression, neither homosexual or heterosexual. I
> may be wrong
> but I imagine at the time it was probably more
> common to see
> a man ride on the back of motorbike than to see a
> woman ride on
> the back of motorbike.
>
>
That's not really the issue. He gets great, obviously
sensual pleasure from this bike ride. Don;t forget
he's hanging onto a very handsome guy in this.
I thought of that bike ride when I saw "Wilde Reeds"
whose climactic bike-ride (absolutely heart-breaking)
is quite explicit in its sexual-romantic nature. With
Bresson everythig is implicit. And this in turn ties
up with his other concerns and the very unique way he
has of expressing them in images and sound.
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9471
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course, no one "has" to reference
> > heterosexuality. It just is.
>
> As it so insistently reminds us.
Let me add to my previous post, which I think no one will take great
exception to, by saying that I LOVE hearing David's gossip, and would
defend it on the grounds that every tidbit reminds us that the gay
universe exists, has existed and always will exist (in Hollywood, for
example: David wrote abook about that), even though the sicko powers
that be are always trying to pretend there's no such thing, or that
it's this marginal little illness going on over THERE that we don't
need to think about. Gayness is a huge, rich, variegated part of
human culture and history that we all, gay and straight, need to be
reminded of so that maybe by the time we croak it'll be just part of
everyone's reality, without all this repression and freaking out and
worse. I think David's gossip is subversive - keep on dishing, David!
And to Jean-Pierre and others who have complained, this isn't a put-
down. It's just a reminder that what obviously strikes some as
inappropriate in a film club is quite appropriate to some of us. One
of the great things about a_film_by is the fact that Fred, when he's
not too busy, is always reminding us that something exists besides
narrative commercial cinema, even though the avant-garde is more
marginalized than gays. (When will we see the a-g equivalent of Queer
Eye on tv?)
One other "discourse" that is totally marginalized in all discussions
of film is communism - and I use the term deliberately, because the
very use of it raises eyebrows and hackles, and provokes anxiety
attacks, so successful is the zillion dollar right-wing propaganda
and intimidation effort of the last 90 years, much of it paid for
with our tax dollars. We have people in this group - Richard, for
example - who know a hell of a lot about the history of leftism in
the cinema, and they never even post. I wish they did. Even gossip
would be enormously useful given that we are most of us are totally
ignorant [assumption] about the history of popular struggles and
their reflection in film. The occasional refrences to "class" and
whatnot that are ritually dredged up in what passes for political
film criticism are like the code words people had to use to allude to
gaynss in print 60 years ago! That's not necessarily the fault of the
critics: it's a symptom of massive, and massively successful,
repression.
9472
From: Zach Campbell
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:38pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
Re: All of Bill's post -- amen.
We should never forget that homosexuality exists with a long-
standing cultural history, and that most cultures do a lot in
suppressing and repressing a whole range of opportunities for sexual
expression. Uncoding the codes, so to speak, is important cultural
work that helps us recognize our origins and our myths. It's not a
handful of people who have infiltrated the arts & entertainment
world--it's that it was always there, the plank in the eye of
(hetero)sexuality, from time immemorial, and mutating into a
particularly notable rupture in recent centuries.
And, yes, communism is another can of worms--one that should be
reopened, quite frankly. Class is important (not to mention
colonialism and imperialism, ideas most commentators would think
died out sometime between 1776 and early US expansion into another
autonomous territory), and even if one finds revolutionary Marxist
ideals distasteful (or impossible), there is a lot to be learned
from analyzing social divisions related to resources & power. And,
of course, it's barely recognized how small a part of the global
population is actually white: opponents of 'multiculturalism' always
pick a few easy targets and refuse to grapple with this issue.
Intelligent sociopolitical criticism is hard to come by, but we need
it now as much as we ever did.
--Zach
9473
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- hotlove666 wrote:
Gayness is a huge, rich,
> variegated part of
> human culture and history that we all, gay and
> straight, need to be
> reminded of so that maybe by the time we croak it'll
> be just part of
> everyone's reality, without all this repression and
> freaking out and
> worse. I think David's gossip is subversive - keep
> on dishing, David!
>
Well thanks, Bill, but what I'm talking about is far
more than gossip. I have no idea what Robert Bresson's
love life was like, but the homoeroticism on display
in several (not all) shouldn't be swept under the rug.
Just now I was having a very useful exchange with
Elizabeth Nolan about the motorcycle rides sequence in
"Diary of a Country Priest." I was comparing it to the
one in Tchine's "Wild Reeds." A useful parallel, I
think. But not because the filmmakers are gay -- or
even that homoeroticism is on display in both. I can't
imagine anyone, of any sexual orientation, not
responding to these sequences and finding the Bresson
delightful and the Techine heartbreaking. Great
expressive filmmaking in both instances.
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9474
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- Zach Campbell wrote:
> And, yes, communism is another can of worms--one
> that should be
> reopened, quite frankly. Class is important (not to
> mention
> colonialism and imperialism, ideas most commentators
> would think
> died out sometime between 1776 and early US
> expansion into another
> autonomous territory), and even if one finds
> revolutionary Marxist
> ideals distasteful (or impossible), there is a lot
> to be learned
> from analyzing social divisions related to resources
> & power.
Indeed! We can talk about sex all we want to but class
remains the great "unspeakable" in American life. Not
just in terms of recognizing the fact that classes
exist in this "classless society," but the complex
ways in which class operates. "Igby Goes Down" is one
of the few films in recent years to deal with the
issue.
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9475
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:20pm
Subject: stick in the mud
> I think David's gossip is subversive - keep on dishing, David!
That's great, but I find it boring and unnecessary, and a chore to get
through all the posts that don't have anything to do with the list's
main theme. I guess that makes me homophobic, or (the way you guys
are making it sound ) somebody on the level of a Holocaust denier or a
PASSION OF THE CHRIST fan, but I don't think so. I find all gossip -
of the Hey girls, guess what I heard! style - boring. If someone was
to mention that Angelina Jolie had married or split up with
somebody-or-other, I'd feel the same way. Or who Marlene Dietrich was
with in 1938, or the private lives of Elizabeth and Essex. Unless
this info can somehow be made to fit the themes of the board - as
David did by mentioning the homoerotic scenes in Bresson films - it
seems quite a waste.
(By the way, my recent De Palma/Kael post was an in-joke for a few
original members. Too bad I only got a "No" instead of an "LOL!!!!")
I like that Jeanne Moreau line from the Losey film that's David's
favorite: "Homosexual, heterosexual, you're either sexual or you're
not!" Hear hear. I'd just as well assume that sexuality of all kinds
is an undercurrent in all films, except LOST IN TRANSLATION of course,
but insofar as it relates to Page Six and La Dolce Musto and not to
Derek Jarman or King Vidor, I'd just as well leave it at the door.
-Jaime
9476
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:39pm
Subject: Re: stick in the mud
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
I'd just as well assume that
> sexuality of all kinds
> is an undercurrent in all films, except LOST IN
> TRANSLATION of course,
> but insofar as it relates to Page Six and La Dolce
> Musto and not to
> Derek Jarman or King Vidor, I'd just as well leave
> it at the door.
>
Well you throw it out the door it comes in the window.
It all depends on relevance to topic. For example, I
think that Jonathan Rosenbaum;s discovery that bresson
was a gigolo in his youth provides an enormous piece
of insight into "Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne" --long
thought to be a curiously "uncharacteristic" Bresson
film.
That Sternberg and Marlene had an affair is obvious.
But the best part of it is those movies. Can you think
of a filmmkaer who strove so mightily to create
celluloid monuments to his beloved's implacable
narcissism?
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9477
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:59pm
Subject: Hommage to Robert Bresson -- by Cole Porter (from"Wake Up and Dream" 1929)
"I should like you all to know,
I'm a famous gigolo.
And of lavender, my nature's got just a dash in it.
As I'm slightly undersexed,
You will always find me next
To some dowager who's wealthy rather than passionate.
Go to one of those night club places
And you'll find me stretching my braces
Pushing ladies with lifted faces 'round the floor.
But I must confess to you
There are moments when I'm blue.
And I ask myself whatever I do it for.
I'm a flower that blooms in the winter,
Sinking deeper and deeper in snow.
I'm a baby who has
No mother but jazz,
I'm a gigolo.
Ev'ry morning, when labor is over,
To my sweet-scented lodgings I go,
Take the glass from the shelf
And look at myself,
I'm a gigolo.
I get stocks and bonds
From faded blondes
Ev'ry twenty-fifth of December.
Still I'm just a pet
That men forget
And only tailors remember.
Yet when I see the way all the ladies
Treat their husbands who put up the dough,
You cannot think me odd
If then I thank God
I'm a gigolo"
The best version of this I've ever heard is by William
Hickey (yes of "Prizzi's Honor" fame) on the original
cast recording of "The Decline and Fall of the Entire
World As Seen Through the Eyes of Cole Porter"
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9478
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:13pm
Subject: Re: French Gigolo aka Call Me!
> Well you throw it out the door it comes in the window.
> It all depends on relevance to topic. For example, I
> think that Jonathan Rosenbaum;s discovery that bresson
> was a gigolo in his youth provides an enormous piece
> of insight into "Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne" --long
> thought to be a curiously "uncharacteristic" Bresson
> film.
I'd like to hear more about this, actually. How does this modify your
attitude towards the film, the heroine in particular? It's still hard
not to imagine her as a vindictive (albeit fascinating) bitch. I
really like that film, by the way.
I'd like to find out more about this stuff, I know next to nothing
about Bresson's personal life. Where is Jonathan's post? Jeez, you
turn your head for a second...
> That Sternberg and Marlene had an affair is obvious.
> But the best part of it is those movies. Can you think
> of a filmmkaer who strove so mightily to create
> celluloid monuments to his beloved's implacable
> narcissism?
Very true, and that's some of the kind of stuff that I come to this
list for. A scant few other discussion boards on the internet would
even consider the idea of a director having sex or loving a man or a
woman.
-Jaime
9479
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
Bill, I had no idea about the Lorca connection to Un Chien Andalou. Where are
you writing about the film? And is Joel Schumacher gay? (Sorry, Jamie.)
J-P, there are tons are foot fetish sites but Jamie would slap my limp wrists
for posting URLs.
Kevin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
9480
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: French Gigolo aka Call Me!
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> I'd like to hear more about this, actually. How
> does this modify your
> attitude towards the film, the heroine in
> particular? It's still hard
> not to imagine her as a vindictive (albeit
> fascinating) bitch. I
> really like that film, by the way.
>
Well it depends on who you think is the heroine. I
think it's Elina Labourdette. The way her mother takes
her about through the night clubs and such in the film
is very well-observed. Obviously Bresson knew what he
was talking about, and the fact that he'd "been
there/done that" makes it all the more powerful to me.
> I'd like to find out more about this stuff, I know
> next to nothing
> about Bresson's personal life.
Neither does anybody else that I know of.
A scant few other discussion boards on
> the internet would
> even consider the idea of a director having sex or
> loving a man or a
> woman.
>
It's not the love affairs -- it's what they've turned
them into as movies that count. consider Godard. he
makes it impossible for anyone to discuss his 60's
films without acknowledging his relationship with Anna
Karina. >
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9481
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:39pm
Subject: Re: French Gigolo aka Call Me!
> > Well you throw it out the door it comes in the window.
>> It all depends on relevance to topic. For example, I
>> think that Jonathan Rosenbaum;s discovery that bresson
>> was a gigolo in his youth provides an enormous piece
>> of insight into "Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne" --long
>> thought to be a curiously "uncharacteristic" Bresson
>> film.
>
>I'd like to hear more about this, actually. How does this modify your
>attitude towards the film, the heroine in particular? It's still hard
>not to imagine her as a vindictive (albeit fascinating) bitch. I
>really like that film, by the way.
>
>I'd like to find out more about this stuff, I know next to nothing
>about Bresson's personal life. Where is Jonathan's post? Jeez, you
>turn your head for a second...
It seems to be more of a rumor. Jonathan Rosenbaum briefly alluded
to it coming from "usually reliable sources" in his review of Babette
Mangolte's "Les modeles de Pickpocket."
http://www.chireader.com/movies/archives/2004/0404/040402.html
I'd like to hear this fleshed out a bit, too. I'm not so sure it
qualifies as a bona fide "discovery," does it?
I moderate www.robert-bresson.com and knowing full well how difficult
it is to get *any* information regarding Bresson's personal
life--especially where Mylene Bresson is involved--I'm quite
intrigued.
Doug
9482
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:52pm
Subject: The Last Taboo (was: Stick in the mud)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> > I think David's gossip is subversive - keep on dishing, David!
>
> That's great, but I find it boring and unnecessary, and a chore
to get
> through all the posts that don't have anything to do with the
list's
> main theme. I guess that makes me homophobic, or (the way
you guys
> are making it sound ) somebody on the level of a Holocaust
denier or a
> PASSION OF THE CHRIST fan, but I don't think so. I find all
gossip -
> of the Hey girls, guess what I heard! style - boring.
It doesn't make you anything but one of those rare people who's
bored by gossip.
Let me mention another topic, religion, that is marginalized in
discussions of film for the reason Hadrian cites: it isn't
supposed to be a subject for civilized conversation. We recently
got into it because of The Passion, but generally we stay away
from it, and even when Gibson obliged us to talk about it the
discussion was limited to the political (anti-Semitic) and sexual
(S&M) aspects of the film.
Why? Because religion has become virtually a taboo topic for
university-educated intellectuals, particularly those who consider
themeselves to be on the left. My use of Gnosticism as a
paradigm for understanding certain films is pretty abstract
(although I am, personally, a Gnostic), but my use of it in the
introduction to a book I co-edited with a French communist was
one of the reasons my collaborator suppressed the whole
introduction to the book before publication. His explanation was
that he couldn't understand what I was talking about. Repression
also breeds ignorance, and I think ignorance is the Achilles heel
of progressive film criticism in the case of The Passion.
And yet, even for the most secular among us, as David says in
another context, if you throw it out the door, it comes back in the
window. Dan's last film at least takes religion as its pretext (sex,
religion - that just leaves you one taboo subject you haven't
tackled, Dan), and he has pointed out its importance to Bazin
and others - not to mention some of the NV's most beloved
filmmakers.
Because I'm working on Bunuel right now, I have to mention that
sex, religion and politics are what all his films are about, and
very explicitly. As for avant-gardism - the formal "margin" to
auteurism, championed here by Fred - Bunuel started off as an
avant-gardist (didn't Andalusian Dog influence Brakhage?), and
in a sense never really abandoned the lessons of his
avant-garde phase, even when he was doing his Mexican pop
films and his critical realist films. Then he brought
avant-gardism back into mainstream cinema via the enormously
influential "neo-surrealist" films he made in France at the end of
his career.
In that respect Belle de Jour was as influential on subsequent
filmmakers as Last Year at Marienbad by its formal subversions
- maybe more because it also "outed" S&M, which has now
become an important late capitalist commodity in film, music, tv,
art, photography, books and comic books. The gradual
emergence of gay subjects in mainstream cinema - Ang Lee's
new project, which started off as a Van Sant project, for example
- is happening later, but it's finally happening. Paul Bartel told
me when I interviewed him for the Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss
presskit that he'd love to be a young filmmaker today, and that in
any case he was planning to take full advantage of the new
freedom while he could, but he didn't live long enough to do that.
9483
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:55pm
Subject: catch up / Los Muertos / 2001
A lot of great discussions here, I see.
I wish I had a free moment to chime in on Phil Karlson, de Oliveira, etc., but to answer
Andy first, on LOS MUERTOS, I am meeting with Lisandro this afternoon to talk about
the film (and LA LIBERTAD), and we'll post a full report on 24FPS shortly.
LOS MUERTOS is about a man who, as a teenager, murdered his two brothers and has
spent most of his adult life in prison. When he is about to be released, at the start of
the film, he is making plans to seek out his daughter. The film is his journey, first by
truck, then on foot, then in a canoe down a long river. A little bit of Heart of
Darkness.
Well, yes, on a tangent, 2001 was a great year for films, I love the two de Oliveiras as
well as Mulholland Drive, and Omirbaev's THE ROAD, which still resonates with me,
not to mention the little-seen SEAFOOD by Zhu Wen, though now that his latest,
SOUTH OF THE CLOUDS, has gotten a prize and is on its way to festivals, maybe there
will be a reason for programmers to bring SEAFOOD back. And then Teresa
Villaverde's AGUA E SAL, which was only commented on at the time because of Jon
Jost's insane tirade against Villaverde over their young daughter. Well, AGUA E SAL is
a beautiful film, and Jon Jost just keeps getting worse and worse. Last but not least,
Jose Luis Guerin's EN CONSTRUCCION, the finest Spanish film of the last few years by
the finest Spanish director.
In 2001 we also saw Pedro Costa's film on the Straubs. Almost as good is Rafi Pitts'
ABEL FERRARA: NOT GUILTY, one of the last films in the Cinema de notre temps
series. Pitts captures Ferrara over three days, though films and edits as if it was one
24 hour period, as Ferrara begins and ends his work day, as he eats with friends, as
he leads teenagers in Manhattan on a parade, as he plays guitars, meets with
actresses... Essentially it's a film starring Abel, not a film with Abel. Or maybe the
other way around. Pitts' approach gives us great insight on Ferrara the man, though it
might leave something to be desired for those craving to see more of Ferrara the
filmmaker.
Gabe
9484
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:10pm
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Bill, I had no idea about the Lorca connection to Un Chien
Andalou. Where are
> you writing about the film? And is Joel Schumacher gay?
And very "out," I guess. The costumes in Batman and Robin
alone...
I'm doing a book on Bunuel for Taschen, to be published next
year.
Lorca, Dali and Bunuel were close friends in college; Lorca was
Dali's roommate. Dali was androgynous and scared of sex, and
Lorca wanted him; Dali was in love with Lorca. Bunuel was
jealous - Dali was his most important collaborator - and tried to
interfere, but when Lorca tried to sodomize Dali he sent him
away and wrote to Bunuel something like, "I'm not that way, and
anyway, it hurts!"
Dali was wildly ambitious and eventually broke off with Lorca
because he saw Bunuel as his way into the Surrealist group in
Paris, where Andalusian Dog became their calling card. They
wrote a nasty letter to Lorca about a new book of poems he'd
done and co-signed it. When Lorca saw the film he said
something like, "I'm the dog, and they're shitting on me!" - he
thought the Batcheff character was him.
Bunuel eventually "got his" when Dali, established, dumped him
in turn for Gala Eluard, who became his wife, publicist and agent
and, per Bunuel, ruined him - I tend to agree with that
assessment. Later a passing remark by Dali about Bunuel's
politics in The Secret Life of Salvador Dali lost Bunuel his job at
MOMA during the early days of the witch hunt and sent him to
Mexico, where he picked up the threads of his career again. The
break between them actually came when Bunuel asked Dali for
a loan and Dali refused.
It's clear that Dali never got over his obsession with Lorca. Lorca
himself was obsessed with death, and enjoyed posing as a
corpse in a coffin for friends at school. Dali reports that when he
heard that his old friend had been murdered by the fascists
during the Civil War, he murmured, "Ole!"
9485
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:16pm
Subject: Re: French Gigolo aka Call Me!
> It's not the love affairs -- it's what they've turned
> them into as movies that count. consider Godard. he
> makes it impossible for anyone to discuss his 60's
> films without acknowledging his relationship with Anna
> Karina. >
I don't know if it's impossible, but I agree with the first part. In
fact, that's what I've been saying for some time. So I guess we're on
the same page.
At least Chris Marker's personal life is so much simpler. He's from
the future, he's a hologram on the landscape of political memory, he's
with that woman he cast in LEVEL FIVE, and that's that.
Wish I could post more now. Gotta go edit!
-Jaime
9486
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a...
> wrote:
> > Bill, I had no idea about the Lorca connection to
> Un Chien
> Andalou. Where are
> > you writing about the film? And is Joel Schumacher
> gay?
>
> And very "out," I guess. The costumes in Batman and
> Robin
> alone...
>
That's about it, actually. He's the least gay of all
gay directors. Even "Flawless" with Phillip Seymour
Hoffman as a drag queen was hopelessly square.
A far more interesting angle on Schumacher is his drug
experiences. He has the longest and most resonant
passage in "Edie", the oral histor of Edie Sedgewick
by Jean Stein and george Plimpton, where he describes
the effects of "Dr. Roberts" Ampetamine-laced Vitamin
shots. Really worht reading.
But none of this has turned up in a Schumacher film.
His most recent, "Veronica Guerin," was suprisingly well-made.
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9487
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:04pm
Subject: Taboos
So how do we discuss those supposedly taboo subjects here if hardly
any film deal with them? Religion/class/communism... Are there
others? Money, maybe? Sexual orientation is no longer taboo, as amply
established by the flood of recent posts (which is why I don't see
anything subversive about gay gossip, but I digress...)
9488
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Taboos
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> So how do we discuss those supposedly taboo subjects
> here if hardly
> any film deal with them?
> Religion/class/communism... Are there
> others? Money, maybe?
Money definitely. Hollywood films ARE money.
Everything is about how much was paid for it -- star
salaries, production costs, box office grosses.
That's the ONLY subject the "mainstream" press
discusses.
But such discussions are insight-free.
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9489
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:01pm
Subject: Re: Oliveira
> Incidentally, for whatever it's worth, I checked POL 2, and Serge
> Daney, one of de De O's earliest and most ardent defenders, wrote an
> important article on Francisca,* visited the set of Satin Slipper and
> then stopped reviewing his work altogether in Liberation until he
> died (not even mentioning Cannibals, Mon Cas, Divine Comedy or No,
> the Vain Glory of Command).
Daney wrote on NO, OR THE VAIN GLORY OF COMMAND. I have the article
somewhere...
And it's not Naremore who's writing on de Oliveira (he's editing the series) but
someone else I have never heard of.
I see I will have to defend de Oliveira around these parts.
9490
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:04pm
Subject: Re: Taboos
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > So how do we discuss those supposedly taboo subjects
> > here if hardly
> > any film deal with them?
> > Religion/class/communism... Are there
> > others? Money, maybe?
>
> Money definitely. Hollywood films ARE money.
> Everything is about how much was paid for it -- star
> salaries, production costs, box office grosses.
>
> That's the ONLY subject the "mainstream" press
> discusses.
>
> But such discussions are insight-free.
Money = class and vice versa. Residues of aristocratic society in
advanced capitalist societies only matter if the aristocrats have
money. The English royal family is filthy rich. So is Sir Mick
Jagger - hence the Sir. I don't think we have to make a seaparte
category for money, especially in H'wd. Above and below the line
are different classes.
BELOW THE LINE is, I believe, the title of a book by a crew
member who is now out of the business describing some of the
implications of the division - for example, a scene where two of
Robert Duvall's guards slammed a crew guy who was dancing
with his girlfriend at a cast and crew party gainst the wall so that
Duvall could "cut in." And it has been widely reported that the
women assaulted by our new governor never talked about it
because they wanted to keep working in H'wd. Droit de seigneur.
As for the need to devote more insightful discussion to films as a
commodity, I heartily agree, but ultimately it all comes back to the
ongoing struggle between social groups for more of the green
stuff and the power that goes with it. Once you pencil that in
something like Oudart's theory of classical cinema becomes
ridiculously easy to postulate: Classical cinema describes a
struggle between individuals or groups for an economic stake,
usually represented by a piece of territory, which gets rewritten
as a sexual conflict, so that the bad guys become a sexual
phantasm that can be exorcised and peace restored through a
generalized castartion. "It's still the same old story..."
Like that.
9491
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:12pm
Subject: Re: Taboos
Bill Krohn writes:
We have people in this group - Richard, for example - who know a hell of a
lot about the history of leftism in the cinema, and they never even post.
If this is Richard Porton, his writings (Film and the Anarchist Imagination,
1999) give the strong impression that he is an anarchist, NOT a communist.
These two political philosophies are poles apart, and have been since Proudhon
had the big debate with Marx in the 19th Century. Anarchism seems to me to be a
lot more interesting subject than communism.
On class. A lot of teen movies of the 1980's dealt with class divides among
young people. Such works based on S. E. Hinton novels as Tex (Tim Hunter, 1982)
and the TV series version of The Outsiders (1989) showed economic divisions.
So did "Dangerously Close" (Albert Pyun) and "Pretty in Pink" (Howard Deutch).
Teen movies are not taken seriously by most critics (Adrian Martin excepted).
So did the British TV miniseries "Flickers" (1980). Wish this would be
revived - it is a sensational work.
Mike Grost
9492
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Taboos
I did mean Richard Porton.
>
> On class. A lot of teen movies of the 1980's dealt with class
divides among
> young people.
The Outsiders is a strong example of that, and I think teens
reacted both to it and the Hinton books because of that. Now they
read Harry Potter!
Jean Renoir: "All my movies are about money."
9493
From:
Date: Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Taboos
The recent "The Skulls" (Rob Cohen, 2000) has a lot to say about class. It is
a satire on "The Skull & Bones" secret society at Yale to which the Bushes
belong. Critics sure ravaged it, but I enjoyed it a lot!
Another Hollywood movie with liberal social commentary is "Zoolander" (Ben
Stiller). It takes satirical aim at child labor in the third world.
Both Cohen and Stiller could have stood in bed, for all the support they got
from the cinephile community with these films. They have been treated as
non-films in the "serious" film magazines.
Mike Grost
9494
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 0:05am
Subject: Teen movies
> On class. A lot of teen movies of the 1980's dealt with class divides among
> young people. Such works based on S. E. Hinton novels as Tex (Tim Hunter, 1982)
> and the TV series version of The Outsiders (1989) showed economic divisions.
> So did "Dangerously Close" (Albert Pyun) and "Pretty in Pink" (Howard Deutch).
> Teen movies are not taken seriously by most critics (Adrian Martin excepted).
I think TEX, for one, is a terrific film. - Dan
9495
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 0:26am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"I'm doing a book on Bunuel for Taschen, to be published next
year."
Was Bunuel an anarchist, socialist communist or POUMISTA? Did he
belong to the CNT or UGT or no union at all? Did he have a red and
black card (if anarchist) or a red card (if communist or socialist)
or was he only a fellow traveler? Anarchists have often claimed him
as one of our own but I wonder if he was actually an anrachist in any
meaningful sense of the word.
As for the Spanish Civil War, I think you should look at an essay by
Noam Chomsky called "Objectivity and Liberal Schoalarship" in
his "American Power and the New Mandarins" where he discusses conter-
revolutionary subordination. Don't overlook the revolution that was
at the heart of the civil war. In spite of his later recantation
Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" presents a vivid picture of the
revolution in the 1937 period up to the May Days. For a
comprehensive history see "The Revolution and Civil War in Spain" by
Broue and Temime.
Salud,
Richard
9496
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 0:44am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
> Was Bunuel an anarchist, socialist communist or POUMISTA?
He was a communist for the decade before he left Europe. He
had a card in the French Party (per Aragon) and maybe in the
Spanish Party. Later when someone said he had been a
communist he demurred; then when he understood that they
were quoting Aragon, he said, "If it's Aragon who said it, it's ok."
Don't overlook the revolution that was
> at the heart of the civil war. In spite of his later recantation
> Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" presents a vivid picture of the
> revolution in the 1937 period up to the May Days. For a
> comprehensive history see "The Revolution and Civil War in
Spain" by
> Broue and Temime.
Bunuel and Pierre Unik made a film called Espagne 1937
(Espana, leal en armes) which is a compilation film with a
narration and classical music. The resemblance to Las Hurdes
is compare/contrast - the film is a strong, beautiful, optimistic
propagnda documentary about the revolution going on at the
heart of the Civil War. (It has been misdescribed by Jay Leda as
grisly and ironic - nothing of the sort.) Bunuel didn't sign it -
maybe it wasn't surreal enough - but he supervised it; Unik
wrote the narration, as he did for Las Hurdes. Both were
communists at the time.
The anarchist/.communist question is often raised, but his
formal affiliations were mostly with the Party. Despite the
symbolic story that an anarchist friend's lottery ticket financed
Las Hurdes, it was probably financed by the Spanish Republic.
He evolved, of course. I'm primarily talking about the late 20s and
the 30s, but the films of Mexican period contain plenty of
examples of communist social criticism ("critical realism" to use
Lukas's term). Bunuel worked with lots of Party members in
Mexico and even in Hollywood, during his sojourn there. Both the
producer and the writer of The Young One were blacklist victims
working under fake names.
9497
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:19am
Subject: Re: catch up / Los Muertos / 2001
Sounds like a lot of great stuff, Gabe! When you have a few moments,
could you tell us about the "hidden" festival, the one whose
titles could not be announced because they're tied up in rights
disputes or otherwise unseeable? Can the list be published now? Did
you see any of 'em? Thanks!
--Robert Keser
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> A lot of great discussions here, I see.
>
> I wish I had a free moment to chime in on Phil Karlson, de
Oliveira, etc.,
9498
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:45am
Subject: Re: sex lives of directors and critics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"Bunuel and Pierre Unik made a film called Espagne 1937
(Espana, leal en armes) which is a compilation film with a
narration and classical music. The resemblance to Las Hurdes
is compare/contrast - the film is a strong, beautiful, optimistic
propagnda documentary about the revolution going on at the
heart of the Civil War. (It has been misdescribed by Jay Leda as
grisly and ironic - nothing of the sort.) Bunuel didn't sign it -
maybe it wasn't surreal enough - but he supervised it; Unik
wrote the narration, as he did for Las Hurdes. Both were
communists at the time."
Thanks for the excellent information Bill. I look forward to reading
your book.
It's interesting that the PCE was allowed to acknowledge the
Revolution while the Comintern adopted a line that denied a
revolution was taking place so as not to alarm the Capitalist
countries (the official line at that time was "Socialism in one
country.") The International Brigades were told that no revolution
was taking place in spite of evidence to the contrary, and this
policy produced a lot of disillusionment that ultimately lead to a
lot of recantations and denunciations of "The Stalinist School of
Falsification." Many of the contributors to "The God That Failed"
dated their disenchantment to this period. Certainly a lot of ex-
Party members supported the witch-hunts of the '50s, and fellow
travelers and ex-Trotskists made up the first wave of neo-cons.
Bunuel's anti-clericalism seemed to me to be his strongest connection
to anarchism, but I suppose the PCE promised a swifter and more
orderly transition to socialism so that's why he was attracted to
communism.
Richard
9499
From:
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 0:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Huston
Robert comes closest to summarizing what I like about Huston's film of "Moby
Dick": the gravitas in terms of tone and the handsomely appointed look of the
film. I also think that Richard is on target in describing it as a sort of
"Classics Illustrated" film - enjoyably so, from my perspective. So my
(unexpected) liking of the film seems to have more to do with simply enjoying it on a
storytelling level rather than a mise-en-scene level. Indeed, although I
agree about Peck's performance, I think that Welles' performance has actually >a
lot< to do with my fondness for the film. I think Welles' sermon is absolutely
brilliant.
In terms of Huston in general, I've never particularly cared for him, though
maybe a revisiting of his other films from this period would provoke a similar
response from me. I've never detected a particularly interesting visual or
directorial approach in his work and, as indicated above, I don't think "Moby
Dick" has one either; in that case, the power of the basic tale and the
pleasure of seeing it relatively well staged compensates a little bit. Late Huston
is (mostly) a different matter entirely. I say "mostly" because about half of
the late films strike me as thoroughly unremarkable. But, at a minimum, two
of them - "Fat City" and especially "The Dead" - have that visual sensibility
(by which I mean, Huston seems here to be thinking as a maker of images) that I
find so lacking from his other work. Coincidentally or not, those two are
also undoubtedly among his most personal and heartfelt films. That last scene
in the restaurant between Keach and Bridges is absolutely haunting in its world
weariness!
Huston's a fascinating character actor, though, and consistently so. He's
absolutely great in "Chinatown," "The Wind and the Lion," "Winter Kills," and,
of course, the very few clips I've seen from "The Other Side of the Wind."
Bill and Jonathan have seen more of him in the Welles film than I have and can
expand on this.
Peter
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9500
From:
Date: Thu Apr 29, 2004 0:36am
Subject: Re: Teen movies
Echoing Dan, Tim Hunter's "Tex" is a great film, one of the best of a
not-at-all-shabby year - 1982 (also from '82: Welles' fragment of "The Dreamers,"
Edwards' "Victor/Victoria," Losey's "La Truite," Coppola's "One from the Heart,"
Fuller's "White Dog," and on and on).
I had heard a while back that Coppola was planning to reedit his film of "The
Outsiders." I like the current edit a lot (more, actually, than his other
Hinton adaptation, "Rumble Fish"), but I'd certainly be fascinated to see what a
director's cut looks like.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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