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This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
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11001
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
href="http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g012/zalmanking.html"
target="_blank">Zalman King
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> J-P -
>
> That was me who mentioned Some Call It Loving. It's
> my all-time fave film. I
> gush about here:
>
http://neumu.net/continuity_error/2002/2002-00007_continuity.shtml
>
> Cheap video copies can be had at Ebay.
>
> Kevin John
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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11002
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:33pm
Subject: Hipsters (was Lucas, Needham, Penn / SMOKE SCREENS)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> > Side-Note to My Younger List-Compatriots: Isn't it a trip how
> hipsters of the 20-something/30-something generation, who pride
> themselves in (or if not so pejoratively "pride," take a legitimate
> interest in) being whole-hearted enthusiasts of all kinds of
> avant-rock, avant-electronica, atonal/angular esoterica or whatever
> can't get it up (or get them out) for the same level of sophistication
> for aesthetic "challenge"/"non-norm" when it comes to cinema? You'll
> have a conversation with someone about the latest Warp Records release
> or whatever's the most interesting-sounding super-obscure thing
> reviewed on Pitchfork that day or in Wire magazine that month, and
> then look at their video collection and it's all 'Pirates of the
> Caribbean,' 'Pitch Black,' and 'Pi.' Why is this?
The question can be turned around as well: how many
"sophisticated/hipster" cinephiles have record collections that are all
Handel, Blue Oyster Cult, and Wynton Marsalis?
A simple response is that many are comfortable in their narrow realm of
expertise and lack the time or interest to explore other artforms or
sources of knowledge/experience. For better and for worse, many of us
limit our pursuit of knowledge and experience to the artforms with which
we're already familiar or comfortable -- few of us can be "hip all over".
Otherwise, we can blame deficient arts discourse and film accessibility:
To the extent that most film discussions fail to address *film-specific*
aesthetics, or fail to go beyond literary/theatrical modes of analysis,
such discussions do not help individuals develop "senses of cinema"
beyond judgments of "interesting plot," "lively dialogue" or "good
acting". As much as my own aesthetic interests (as a 30-year-old) lean
towards modernist, form-conscious art, I am always interested in
criticism and modes of analysis which attempt to deal with the
isomorphic, synaesthetic aspects shared among artforms. For example, it
strikes me that what Brakhage does in his hand-painted films has only a
little to do with Pollock, and more to do with the music of Conlon
Nancarrow and of Evan Parker. While it's difficult to capture that
commonality in verbal language, it's even more problematic that so few
"experts" even try.
Perhaps more significantly, I think the accessibility issue has
heretofore limited the audience for non-mainstream (modes of
appreciating) cinema much more severely than it has for non-mainstream
music (at least recorded music). To the degree that it's easier to buy
a Fennesz CD -- or to sample it online, at a used store, or at a
friend's house -- than it is to find a screening of a Markopoulos film,
it's always going to be more difficult for challenging films to develop
audiences beyond those with privileged access (critics, academics). I'm
cautiously hopeful that the availability of great films on high-quality
DVDs watched on good monitors will expand rather than narrow notions of
what cinema can be.
back to lurking,
Jason
--
Jason Guthartz
jason@r...
--
"The major reason for art is to enable us to share -- and sensitize ourselves to -- both the surfaces and the structures of experiences existing on temperamental and moral coordinates different from our own. It's what you're slowest to approve of that teaches you the most."
-- Raymond Durgnat
11003
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:36pm
Subject: OT: web browsers
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Gallagher"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson" wrote:
> You could also download browsers like Mozilla (http://mozilla.org)
> or Netscape 7. They have built-in pop-up blockers. In addition you
> may prefer them as browsers.
I'll vouch for Mozilla. It takes a bit of getting used to but that's
all I use. When I work for a place that doesn't allow software
installations and they use IE, I go crazy from all the pop-up ads.
-Jaime
11004
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Lucas, Needham, Penn (Was: SMOKE SCREENS)
Now we know: it's not just the broken hearts from which we can
discern David's having passed through a place, but the broken spirits
of many a pre-Dreyer adolescent!
-Jaime
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Yep.
>
>
> --- "Jaime N. Christley"
> wrote:
> >
> > > "Damned kids -- GET OFF MY LAWN!!!" has long been
> > my
> > > battle cry, Craig. Sarcasm helps. Ask them if you
> > can
> > > borrow their copy of "Gertrud," and when they look
> > > confused say something George Sanders-ish.
> >
> > That sounds so incredibly vicious and
> > unconscionable! You just like
> > to go around DESTROYING LIVES like that?!
> >
> > -Jaime
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
11005
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:44pm
Subject: Re: Lucas, Needham, Penn (Was: SMOKE SCREENS)
Craig - I enjoyed your inaugural post about discrepant music/film taste very
much. But couldn't it be turned around the other way, less flatteringly? In
other words: why don't people with advanced/obscure film tastes also have
intimate knowledge of all the experimental/independent music labels you
mention? Many, many cinephiles would not pass this taste-test - me included!
But: I think we have to beware of a certain terrorism of taste-and-style
here (a terrorism that especially comes, as I recall, with the terrain of
youth-culture). We can get to an absurd point where we pose as an 'ideal'
the notion that a person with the most 'advanced' film taste must also
display equally advanced taste in every area of their life: music,
dress-sense, food, sex-partners, political values ... But, as we all know,
this is simply not how it happens in reality!!! (David, I'm waiting for you
to nominate someone who indeed HAS this impeccable taste in all
life-areas!!!)
Myself, I have no problem with the notion that a dedicated Straub-Huillet
fan may also eat at MacDonalds, dress like Bruce Springsteen, and listen
obsessively to Barry Manilow. (That was not a self-portrait!) Human beings
are, after all, complex.
Adrian
11006
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Hipsters (was Lucas, Needham, Penn / SMOKE SCREENS)
--- Jason Guthartz wrote:
To the degree that
> it's easier to buy
> a Fennesz CD -- or to sample it online, at a used
> store, or at a
> friend's house -- than it is to find a screening of
> a Markopoulos film,
> it's always going to be more difficult for
> challenging films to develop
> audiences beyond those with privileged access
> (critics, academics). I'm
> cautiously hopeful that the availability of great
> films on high-quality
> DVDs watched on good monitors will expand rather
> than narrow notions of
> what cinema can be.
>
Indeed! I do wish Beavers would get that giant sequoia
out of his ass and put "Twice a Man," "The Illiac
Passion," "Galaxie," and "Eros O Basileus" on DVD.
The success of the Brakhage DVD, has not only brought
these films to infinitely more people than saw them in
Brakhage's lifetime, they've reconfigured his
reputation -- making it stronger than its ever been.
And I say this as someone who has never been a
Brakhage fan.
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11007
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lucas, Needham, Penn (Was: SMOKE SCREENS)
--- Adrian Martin wrote:
We can get to an absurd point where
> we pose as an 'ideal'
> the notion that a person with the most 'advanced'
> film taste must also
> display equally advanced taste in every area of
> their life: music,
> dress-sense, food, sex-partners, political values
> ... But, as we all know,
> this is simply not how it happens in reality!!!
> (David, I'm waiting for you
> to nominate someone who indeed HAS this impeccable
> taste in all
> life-areas!!!)
>
Warren Sonbert came the closest. I was just thinking
about him because I wrote a review of Deborah Jowitt's
new bio of Jerome Robbins, and for all his talent
Robbins was truly an L7.
That's why he and Warre broke up, to tell the truth.
> Myself, I have no problem with the notion that a
> dedicated Straub-Huillet
> fan may also eat at MacDonalds, dress like Bruce
> Springsteen, and listen
> obsessively to Barry Manilow. (That was not a
> self-portrait!) Human beings
> are, after all, complex.
>
Wel YOU may not, but Danielle surely would!
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11008
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:11am
Subject: Re: Lucas, Needham, Penn (Was: SMOKE SCREENS)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Yep.
>
>
> --- "Jaime N. Christley"
> wrote:
> >
> > > "Damned kids -- GET OFF MY LAWN!!!" has long been
> > my
> > > battle cry, Craig. Sarcasm helps. Ask them if you
> > can
> > > borrow their copy of "Gertrud," and when they look
> > > confused say something George Sanders-ish.
> >
> > That sounds so incredibly vicious and
> > unconscionable! You just like
> > to go around DESTROYING LIVES like that?!
> >
> > -Jaime
> >
> >
>
> Now what is a body to make out of an exchange like the above
that appears under a title that has nothing to do with the exchange --
a title moreover that has appeared about two dozen times in less
than 24 hours. Is one supposed to read ALL posts under a specific
title in order to find out what (if anything) is being discussed in
any one of them? I am very much in favor of changing the title
every time you veer from the original topic. It's not ALL that
difficult or time-consuming!
JPC
(a notorious old grouch)
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
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11009
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:18am
Subject: Changing the title
The Subject of my post of ten minutes ago should obviously be changed
to "Please change your title!".
JPC
11010
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:37am
Subject: Resnais question
Besides MARIENBAD, were any of Resnais's films shot in 'Scope or an
equivalent process?
-Jaime
11011
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:45am
Subject: Re: Resnais question
"Le Chant du Styrene"
and "L'Amour a Mort" are also scope.
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> Besides MARIENBAD, were any of Resnais's films shot
> in 'Scope or an
> equivalent process?
>
> -Jaime
>
>
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11012
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:16am
Subject: Re: Resnais question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> "Le Chant du Styrene"
>
> and "L'Amour a Mort" are also scope.
>
> --- "Jaime N. Christley"
> wrote:
> > Besides MARIENBAD, were any of Resnais's films shot
> > in 'Scope or an
> > equivalent process?
> >
> > -Jaime
> >
> >
> There's a very interesting article (by Vincent Amiel) on the use
of Scope in "Marienbad" in the May issue of POSITIF.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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11013
From:
Date: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:51pm
Subject: Re: Purple Plain - to go or not to go
I really enjoyed "The Purple Plain", when seen 25 years ago on the Late Show.
Best scene: the woman in the green dress, and the pitcher of limeade - daring
use of brilliant color!
Cannot offer a "formal" defense. If Parrish has a visual style, or
innovations of technique, I did not discover them Way Back When.
Recently enjoyed Parrish's little film noir crime thriller, "Cry Danger".
Liked the shots of LA cityscapes and street scenes, the upside down shot of
William Conrad's head....
Have never seen "The Wonderful Country". Want to...
By the way, Sarris italicizes all 3 of these titles, plus "Fire Down Below",
implying he liked all 4 films. But his article seems to imply that "The Purple
Plain" was Parrish's only good film. Have always been pleasantly intrigued by
this anomaly.
Mike Grost
"There's just one thing I must know -
Should I stay or should I go?"
The Clash
11014
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:24am
Subject: Re: Re: Sarris' italics
> By the way, Sarris italicizes all 3
of these titles, plus "Fire Down Below",
> implying he liked all 4 films. But
his article seems to imply that "The
Purple
> Plain" was Parrish's only good film.
Have always been pleasantly intrigued by
> this anomaly.
This happens with other entries on the
book as well, so,metimes a film he
describe as minor in the text get the
italics, while some of the ones he
mentions positively don't get them.
Zinneman's entry has that the big
films are his worse, but all of them
got the italics, the Frankheimer one
mentions The Manchurian Candidate as
proof that he isn't a good filmmaker,
but of course it got the italics and
so on.
Filipe
>
> Mike Grost
>
> "There's just one thing I must know -
> Should I stay or should I go?"
> The Clash
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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11015
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:05am
Subject: Re: Re: Sarris' italics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
wrote:
> > By the way, Sarris italicizes all 3
> of these titles, plus "Fire Down Below",
> > implying he liked all 4 films. But
> his article seems to imply that "The
> Purple
> > Plain" was Parrish's only good film.
> Have always been pleasantly intrigued by
> > this anomaly.
>
> This happens with other entries on the
> book as well, so,metimes a film he
> describe as minor in the text get the
> italics, while some of the ones he
> mentions positively don't get them.
> Zinneman's entry has that the big
> films are his worse, but all of them
> got the italics, the Frankheimer one
> mentions The Manchurian Candidate as
> proof that he isn't a good filmmaker,
> but of course it got the italics and
> so on.
>
> Filipe
>
>
> > Can't believe in this day and age people are still paying
attention to those almost half-a-century old italics!
Parrish's best film, his masterpiece if you will, is "The
Wonderful Country". "The Purple Plain" is a very fine, personal,
unusual movie, but "Wonderful Country" is a great one.
JPC
> > Mike Grost
> >
> > "There's just one thing I must know -
> > Should I stay or should I go?"
> > The Clash
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo!
> Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads.
> Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for
> free!
> >
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/b5IolB/TM
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
~->
>
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
> >
> >
> a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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11016
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:42am
Subject: Re: Resnais question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> "Le Chant du Styrene"
It might interest members to know that an English subtitled AND
letterboxed version of this film is now available on a Korean DVD
devoted to Pierre Braunberger's shorts (which also includes such
rarities as Pialat's "L'amour existe", Rivette's "Le coup de
berger," Godard's "Charlotte et son Jules," a Doniol-Valcroze short,
and the very first film of Melville, "24 Heures de la vie d'un
clown". The name of the DVD is a bit of a misnomer: Their First
Films. You can order it from Xploitedcinema.com in the U.S.
11017
From: Noel Vera
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:41am
Subject: Chat report (belated) and Cukor (belated)
Ow, so the chat was last Sunday? I had it noted down
and wanted to attend (so to speak) but, as always,
life intrudes.
On Cukor: no love for his Wuthering Heights? I know
Oberon was miscast, but it had its moments, I thought.
Star is Born would be my favorite too. Endlessly imitated.
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11018
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:46am
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> J-P -
>
> That was me who mentioned Some Call It Loving. It's my all-time
fave film. I
> gush about here:
> http://neumu.net/continuity_error/2002/2002-00007_continuity.shtml
>
> Cheap video copies can be had at Ebay.
>
> Kevin John
Thanks for cluing me into your piece, Kevin. I wrote rave reviews of
the film for the Village Voice and (I believe) Film Comment when it
premiered at Cannes, with the consequence that I later got invited
to dinner with James B. Harris (& Pierre Rissient) in Paris. And
eventually I wrote a longer review in Sight and Sound when it opened
in London. Tom Milne, who reviewed it for Monthly Film Bulletin, is
a big fan of it too.
11019
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:50am
Subject: Re: Resnais question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > "Le Chant du Styrene"
>
> It might interest members to know that an English subtitled AND
> letterboxed version of this film is now available on a Korean DVD
> devoted to Pierre Braunberger's shorts (which also includes such
> rarities as Pialat's "L'amour existe", Rivette's "Le coup de
> berger," Godard's "Charlotte et son Jules," a Doniol-Valcroze
short,
> and the very first film of Melville, "24 Heures de la vie d'un
> clown".
How's the subtitling on Chant?
11020
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:13am
Subject: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
Ugh! So now we get youth bashing from actual youth, or at least people
younger than me (I'm 34...going on 14, apparently). I thought I put this shit to
rest with the rockism thread. Here we go again!!
Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig! Do you realize how, I'm sorry, ignorant
you sound when you make a blanket condemnation like "The youngest generation
(the largest part of attendees for the glitzy, vacuous, stupid majority of
Hollywood films) are by and large absolute nihilists?" How is that different from
any other blanket condemantion? All black people are by and large absolute
nihilists? All gay people are by and large absolute nihilists? If those sound
repulsive to you, why shouldn't your comment sound repulsive as well? They ain't
heavy, Craig; they're your brothers. (And what's with this clueless hip-hop
bashing? Outkast's Speakerboxx/The Love Below was number one for weeks last year
and they held the number one AND two spots on the Billboard Hot 100 Singles
chart. Can't get much more mainstream than that. And yet, you could hardly
describe their album as "machismo-and-mammon ueber-alles [sic]," assuming you've
ever even heard of Outkast. And that's just ONE example from the so-called
mainstream. There are others.)
And that "Oh! If only Brakhage did significant box-office!" line is so tired,
it owes Jesus five bucks. If indeed Murder Psalm's weekend grosses beat out
Shrek 2's, you'd probably loathe Brakhage and starting moaning about how
Entertainment Tonight should be spotlighting, oh I don't know, Saul Levine instead.
It reminds me of that dreary documenatry on Half Japanese, The Band That Would
Be King (subtitle: If Only Janet Jackson Weren't So Goddamned Famous! Bitch!
Bitch! Grumble! Grumble!). Do y'all know what you even want??
And Craig, even though your side-note was addressed to "My Younger
List-Compatriots," I'll nevertheless respond to you as a 30-something by saying I know
tons of people who are "whole-hearted enthusiasts of all kinds of avant-rock,
etc." but also dig Ruiz, De Oliveira, Yang, whatever. You might need to expand
your social horizons a tad there, fella. (And when you talk about "'Pirates of
the Caribbean,' 'Pitch Black,' and 'Pi,'" are you referring to the Aronofsky
film in the latter instance? If so, that's utterly preposterous to lump it in
with some sort amorphous concept of the mainstream or "non-norm," no matter
what you thought of the film - I didn't care for it much myself.)
Aaron, I'm truly sorry that you "rarely trust anything musically produced
within the last 20 years." But do me a favor: check out my 2003 top ten
albums/singles list here:
http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/03/critic.php?criticid=1030&
poll_year=2003&type=A&keyword=
Buy/download some of it. Hell, I'll even burn you a CD! Seriously! Then tell
me you don't trust (?) a single second of any it. And if that's truly (!) the
case, email me offlist. I'd be happy to engage in a discussion (the shock
horror!) about it.
And even if you "don't really have any reason to why this is," I have a
suggestion and it stems from monterone's (sorry - I forget the name) post: "Wasn't
the whole music thing (however fragmented, or whatever, at present) always
rooted in the counterculture?" I'm not 100% certain what this question means exac
tly. I can say that not all post-1960s popular music is rooted in the
counterculture (and, yes, that includes "the present"). Some of it is positioned in
direct opposition. But, alas, we still live in the counterculture's shadow and
its legacy of ruptures, the sense that all the best has already passed before
us. Perhaps that's why you don't trust any music of the past 20 years, Aaron
(but whew! ya got that last rockist rupture in there - punk). But more often
than not, this idea is a WILLFUL denial of change and it's such a sour,
counterproductive impulse. Let it die!!
Thanx to the much less hot-headed Jason (kudos for lumping in BOC with Handel
under "sophisticated/hipster") and, of course, Adrian for turning the tables.
But I'd like to be more specific. David, I would have never dreamed of saying
something like this but you've forced my hand: If I ask to borrow your copy
of the New Pornographers: Mass Romantic and you look confused, may I then say
"Dear David, you were an unforgettable Peter Pan. You must play it again
soon!"?
What this is all about is a failure of what my man Fredric J calls cognitive
mapping, the ability to imagine the world outside your own sphere, to imagine
that there is someone out there who likes both the Art Ensemble of Chicago AND
Raul Ruiz, Fennesz and Gertrud (the shock horror! the shock horror!). So to
end, I'd like to quote a simple, beautiful line written by an honest to god
rock critic and acquaintance of mine (MIchaelangelo Matos, music editor at
Seattle Weekly): "If I learned anything in 2003—for me a year of upheaval and
overwork, of too much to do and not enough time to hear everything I wanted to—it's
that if it isn't happening to me, it probably is happening, and that I'd
better spend 2004 trying to catch up." And lest you find me a shameless
self-promoter, Matos has a list of 101 great 2003 songs here:
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0353/031231_music_101songs.php
Oh and if any of the above anti-youth comments were sarcasm, it's time to
either identify it as such or drop it altogether. Again, it doesn't travel well
over the internet.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11021
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:21am
Subject: hipsters
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> Craig - I enjoyed your inaugural post about discrepant music/film taste very
> much. But couldn't it be turned around the other way, less flatteringly?
I think Craig's question goes deeper. Why are there significantly more people
interested in obscure and underground bands than in obscure movies? It might be a
question of access (as Jason said); or maybe not.
Music has an appeal to young people that movies do not. And I say this as someone
who ignored most bands until I hit my 20s, and always felt socially out of place for it.
Liking movies was never as useful as knowing how to play the guitar (who draws a
crowd at a party? movie nerd or guy on the Fender playing Counting Crows?), or
having tickets to the latest hot act at the Empty Bottle (aren't concerts longer, more
visceral, and ultimately more immediate and experiential than sitting in movie
theaters?).
These are just some elements, and being open to experimental forms of music comes
with the territory. In fact, obscure bands are frequently promoted in DJ culture; the
"sampling" phenomenon...
Gabe
11022
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:25am
Subject: Re: Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein Scribe Beheaded
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Robert C. Lees had been a victim of the blacklist. In his 90s, he
> was beheaded today in Beverly Hills by a drifter.
Wow, this sounds like the most sickening Hollywood murder since Ramon
Navarro.
Lees and his wife Jean were extremely active in progressive causes
(they show up with regularity in Norma Barzman's memoirs).
In addition to the Abbott and Costello films, Lees and his partner
Fred Rinaldo wrote some of the Robert Benchley shorts at Metro and
the mind-boggling Olsen & Johnson comedy Crazy House.
Ironically, Lou Costello was very right-wing and a proponent of
loyalty oaths.
11023
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Sarris' italics
I don't think there is an anomaly here. If I remember correctly -- and I
can't check because my copy of American Ciinema is buried under
(appropriately enough) a stack of videotapes in the next room -- the purpose
of the italics was to draw attention to titles that were important, not
necessarily good.
g
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From: "filipefurtado"
To: "a_film_by"
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:24 PM
Subject: Re:[a_film_by] Re: Sarris' italics
> By the way, Sarris italicizes all 3
of these titles, plus "Fire Down Below",
> implying he liked all 4 films. But
his article seems to imply that "The
Purple
> Plain" was Parrish's only good film.
Have always been pleasantly intrigued by
> this anomaly.
This happens with other entries on the
book as well, so,metimes a film he
describe as minor in the text get the
italics, while some of the ones he
mentions positively don't get them.
Zinneman's entry has that the big
films are his worse, but all of them
got the italics, the Frankheimer one
mentions The Manchurian Candidate as
proof that he isn't a good filmmaker,
but of course it got the italics and
so on.
Filipe
>
> Mike Grost
>
> "There's just one thing I must know -
> Should I stay or should I go?"
> The Clash
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo!
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
>
a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________________
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br/
Yahoo! Groups Links
11024
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:03am
Subject: Re: Re: Filmsite.org
Well, it's not exactly relevant to this list, so I'll be brief
(instead of giving an extended plug for my brilliant prose).
My last book was Essential Judaism (published in hard and soft
by Pocket Books) and this is a follow-up, Essential Torah, to be published
in Fall 2005 (if I ever finish it) by Schocken Books.
However, the one after that will probably be a film book (finally!).
g
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:08 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
> George, what's your book about?
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
11025
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
Jonathan, I've read your Sight and Sound piece (which is lovely) but never
the Voice and Comment pieces. A-hunting I will go. And dinner with James B.
Harris??
Just fainted,
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11026
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:09am
Subject: Libel law resource (Was SMOKE SCREENS]
I suspect there either have been or will soon be such cases.
For more systematic (i.e., accurate) information, I heartily recommend
a trip to:
http://www.ldrc.com/index2.html
George (Hasn't libelled anyone lately but not for lack of desire) Robinson
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: SMOKE SCREENS
>
> In a message dated 6/14/04 4:44:16 PM, MG4273@a... writes:
>
>
> > 60 minutes has lawyers for libel suits, I don't, so I will not name the
> > stars here.
> >
> Have any posters to any list ever been sued for libel? (Serious question)
>
> Kevin John
>
11027
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:17am
Subject: Weird Hollywood murder story
Well, they caught the guy.
Only in LA, huh?
For more info, go to:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-061404stab_lat,1,4521876.story?coll=la-
home-headlines
By the way, it's free to register for the LA Times and I can't imagine
anyone on this list who
wouldn't want to read what is basically a house organ for the film industry.
I think of it as
"Know your enemy."
George (I has met the enemy and he is probably an employee of Rupert
Murdoch's) Robinson
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
11028
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:23am
Subject: Browser software (Was Filmsite.org]
I can take a hint. I use Netscape 7 (mainly because it's not owned by Bill
Gates)
and will check the pop-up blocker.
I have to say my own experience with pop-up blockers in the past was that
every
once in a while they blocked something I needed to see (not an ad,
obviously) and
the ones I had used before created some hellacious software conflict
problems.
But what the heck, I haven't had to tinker with my hard drive in a few
months.
g
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Gallagher"
To:
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:23 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson" wrote:
> > Sure. And you are going to replace my computer for me?
> > g
> >
>
> You could also download browsers like Mozilla (http://mozilla.org)
> or Netscape 7. They have built-in pop-up blockers. In addition you
> may prefer them as browsers.
>
> You can also download ad blockers, such as ZoneAlarm Pro
> (http://zonelabs.com) or Popup Zero (http://zonelabs.com)http://www.pcssafe.com/)
> or NoAds (http://www.southbaypc.com/). Also, download spyware
> detectors, such as Spybot (http://www.safer-networking.org/) or
> Ad-Aware (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/).
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> > >
> > > When you use a Macintosh instead of a PC, and surf with Apple's Safari
> > browser instead of IE, well, you don't get pop-up windows...
> > >
> > > craig.
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
11029
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:42am
Subject: Re: hipsters
<
underground bands than in obscure movies?>>
Gabe, at least you humanely qualify your question. Thank you! But access to
obscure movies IS getting (slowly) easier. I just checked on Acquistion, a
Napster-like file sharing program for Macs, and you can download part of Dog Star
Man. That's something...
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11030
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:02am
Subject: Re: Browser software
I use two browers:
1 - IE 6 upgraded with Google Toolbar as pop-up stopper.
2 - Mozilla Firefox
I mainly use IE, but when I do code and work on my website, I always
use Firefox, because it will reveal bad programming instantly.
Firefox is also a seriously fast browser with build in pop-up
stopper; I can highly recommend it as an alternative to IE or
Netscape.
It may not be completely representive, but my stats reveal the
following browser percentages:
IE: 86% (85% IE6, 15% IE5,5 and earlier)
Mozilla / Firefox: 11%
Opera: 1%
Safari (Mac): 1%
Netscape: 0,5%
Others: 0,5%
Henrik
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> I can take a hint. I use Netscape 7 (mainly because it's not owned
by Bill
> Gates)
> and will check the pop-up blocker.
> I have to say my own experience with pop-up blockers in the past
was that
> every
> once in a while they blocked something I needed to see (not an ad,
> obviously) and
> the ones I had used before created some hellacious software
conflict
> problems.
> But what the heck, I haven't had to tinker with my hard drive in a
few
> months.
>
> g
>
> Our talk of justice is empty until the
> largest battleship has foundered on the
> forehead of a drowned man.
> --Paul Celan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Gallagher"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:23 PM
> Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
>
>
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> > > Sure. And you are going to replace my computer for me?
> > > g
> > >
> >
> > You could also download browsers like Mozilla
(http://mozilla.org)
> > or Netscape 7. They have built-in pop-up blockers. In addition
you
> > may prefer them as browsers.
> >
> > You can also download ad blockers, such as ZoneAlarm Pro
> > (http://zonelabs.com) or Popup Zero (http://zonelabs.com)http://www.pcssafe.com/)
> > or NoAds (http://www.southbaypc.com/). Also, download spyware
> > detectors, such as Spybot (http://www.safer-networking.org/) or
> > Ad-Aware (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/).
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > When you use a Macintosh instead of a PC, and surf with
Apple's Safari
> > > browser instead of IE, well, you don't get pop-up windows...
> > > >
> > > > craig.
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
11031
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:06am
Subject: experiential cinema/vibrating seats
In a message dated 6/15/04 1:21:45 AM, gcklinger@y... writes:
> aren't concerts longer, more visceral, and ultimately more immediate and
> experiential than sitting in movie theaters
>
Not necessarily. I won't bore you with my diary of dreary concert
experiences. But one of the things (just one, now) I like about avant-garde films
especially is precisely that they're sometimes more visceral, immediate and
experiential than concerts (and sometimes longer as well, e.g. La Region Centrale).
In fact, most of my fave films are tied to some irreducibly visceral
experience rather than an encounter with a perfect sense of form as I expound on here:
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/top_tens/archive01.html#kevinjohn
And the circumstances surrounding my viewing of Kill Bill Vol. 1 in Montreal
at the Paramount certainly enhanced the experience. With employees wheeling in
carts of concessions (new to me), another employee leading cheers as an
introduction to the film and vibrating seats* that seemed to be triggered by the
subwoofers, it was more like attending the circus than a polite screening. (Of
course, the Paramount is pretty circus-like to begin with, not to mention Kill
Bill itself).
Kevin John
* Has anyone seen these? There's a motor of sorts attached to the back of one
seat in a row (at least on the side where my friends and I were sitting)
which sends vibrations to everyone's buttcheeks. Silly but fun in a sub-William
Castle kind of way.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11032
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:08am
Subject: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
I've never seen "Some Call It Loving," but I've wanted to ever since reading
Jonathan write a little about it in his "Eyes Wide Shut" review. (Harris was,
of course, Kubrick's producing partner on several of his early films.) I
want to even more after having read Kevin John's excellent piece on the film (and
after recently discovering that it's based on a story by John Collier; one of
my favorite Welles films, "The Fountain of Youth," is taken from a Collier
story.)
The Harris films I have seen (all of them except "Some Call It Loving") are
very interesting, particularly "Cop," though you so rarely hear him mentioned
except in connection with Kubrick. He does make films at just about as
infrequent a rate as Kubrick did; it's been over ten years since his last one,
"Boiling Point." Have any of Harris' other films impressed you, Kevin? My gut
feeling is that when I do see "Some Call It Loving," I'll appreciate the other
films on a whole new level.
I'm happy to second everyone else in this thread and report that our chat
session on Sunday was a lot of fun, and also educational and insightful.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11033
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:31am
Subject: Re: Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein Scribe Beheaded
>
> In addition to the Abbott and Costello films, Lees and his partner
> Fred Rinaldo wrote some of the Robert Benchley shorts at Metro and
> the mind-boggling Olsen & Johnson comedy Crazy House.
Crazy House was just shown on Trio courtesy of Tarantino - I hear
it's amazing.
11034
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:06am
Subject: Re: hipsters
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> <
> underground bands than in obscure movies?>>
>
> Gabe, at least you humanely qualify your question. Thank you! But
access to
> obscure movies IS getting (slowly) easier. I just checked on
Acquistion, a
> Napster-like file sharing program for Macs, and you can download
part of Dog Star
> Man. That's something...
>
>
> Kevin John
I usually hear music only when I'm in Tower pondering a rental and
they have a concert film on. Tonight I heard a contemporary group
that sounded like late Beatles (Revolution #9 late Beatles) - I
should've asked for their name - and periodically watched what they
had produced as a film to accompany their music. A lot of it was just
them sitting blank-faced in a hotel room; then they staged a fight in
a limo where it turns out that one of the guys played fast and loose
with the girl, but decide they can get through it. Not real
convincing acting, but they interwove the dialogue from the skit with
the sad signoff song by way of explaining, I guess, where the song
came from. An interesting idea, if that WAS the idea.
Was this a good or a bad example of how musicians use film? Was this
a good or a bad group? (To my ears they were pretty good.) A recent
one? (Two nights ago at Tower I discovered [!] Queen, one of my ex's
favorites [we're ooooolld people over here].) I'm asking because I'm
wondering if this is something that has gotten better. The Beatles
were pretty awful auteurs, but I know that groups have been
experimenting for, like, 30 years with audiovisual creation. Have
some of them gotten good at it? Because that's where you'd see,
theoretically, creative interaction of the two. The fact that it
WASN'T happening, except in the worst imaginable ways, when I was a
listener, was one thing that sheared me off from music to focus on
film after Exile on Main Street.
But lots of music-savvy filmmakers use music as more than a
soundtrack album opportunity in their work. The vast amount of music
that has been made since my day must now all exist in some kind of
Museum Without Walls, making possible all sorts of cultural cross-
pollination. I was just thinking, for some reason, of how Barry White
and other 70s music is used in Love Serenade, which is pretty
integral to the story...maybe even inspired it, for all I know. And
when you talk to even nothing directors you find that some of them
know a lot about some music - I remember Dale Launer, when I was
writing the presskit for Love Potion #9 (another song/film title),
going on and on about how he had placed some very specific metal riff
over the shot of the ourangatan experiencing the effects of the
potion, etc. And we all know that Tarantino and Scorsese are as much
music lovers as film lovers, or almost.
So it's not like the two things exist separate from each other, quite
apart from the fact that there are probably plenty of Ruizians who
listen to contemporary music (if not Ruiz himself). By the way, don't
let David fool you. Back in the day he wrote the first book on rock
and film.
11035
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 0:09pm
Subject: Re: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
Bleary-eyed at 7:30am, I see my name repeated five times, and with an
exclamation point!
> Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig! Do you realize how, I'm sorry,
> ignorant
> you sound when you make a blanket condemnation like "The youngest
> generation
> (the largest part of attendees for the glitzy, vacuous, stupid
> majority of
> Hollywood films) are by and large absolute nihilists?" How is that
> different from
> any other blanket condemantion?
Like any "blanket condemnation" or expression of a "general sense,"
it's to be taken as reasonably as it can be. Guess how many people of
"my generation" don't give a toss for movies, music, etc., but have
other things that interest them instead? Millions.
BTW, regarding my earlier email, I'd just like to put forward the
disclaimer that in invoking Pitchfork or Wire magazine, I wasn't trying
to set position myself as an in-the-know music-ista, or that everyone
needs to be an obscurantist to swim the hallowed music'y waters. But
among friends, at parties, at bars, and at Bar Mitzvahs, the talk
always turns, inevitably and somehow (another blanket condemnation?! or
generalization?) to music.
> All black people are by and large absolute
> nihilists? All gay people are by and large absolute nihilists? If
> those sound
> repulsive to you, why shouldn't your comment sound repulsive as well?
> They ain't
> heavy, Craig; they're your brothers. (And what's with this clueless
> hip-hop
> bashing? Outkast's Speakerboxx/The Love Below was number one for weeks
> last year
> and they held the number one AND two spots on the Billboard Hot 100
> Singles
> chart. Can't get much more mainstream than that. And yet, you could
> hardly
> describe their album as "machismo-and-mammon ueber-alles [sic],"
> assuming you've
> ever even heard of Outkast. And that's just ONE example from the
> so-called
> mainstream. There are others.)
Why don't you relax. I don't think I'm out of line at all to call the
majority of huge hip-hop albums, and singles, and videos
"machismo-and-mammon über alles" (I'm not on the Web, so I get my
umlauts back), because that's what they well fucking are. And as for
this shining OutKast example that gets held up everytime someone needs
to spring to hip-hop's defense, like they're some shining paragon of
moral correctness, every OutKast album has been "ho" this and "bitch"
that just like everyone elses -- they're just more inventive musically
(although my opinion of their albums' production is that it's almost
grossly slick and super-ProTools'd). For my own hip-hop tastes, I
prefer Anti-Pop Consortium or Mu or Public Enemy. Or Morrissey.
> And that "Oh! If only Brakhage did significant box-office!" line is so
> tired,
> it owes Jesus five bucks. If indeed Murder Psalm's weekend grosses
> beat out
> Shrek 2's, you'd probably loathe Brakhage and starting moaning about
> how
> Entertainment Tonight should be spotlighting, oh I don't know, Saul
> Levine instead.
Oh yes, probably! Probably! Probably!
Probably!
> And Craig, even though your side-note was addressed to "My Younger
> List-Compatriots," I'll nevertheless respond to you as a 30-something
> by saying I know
> tons of people who are "whole-hearted enthusiasts of all kinds of
> avant-rock,
> etc." but also dig Ruiz, De Oliveira, Yang, whatever. You might need
> to expand
> your social horizons a tad there, fella.
See three sections above, and then, please, for the sake of your own
health, take a cold shower.
> (And when you talk about "'Pirates of
> the Caribbean,' 'Pitch Black,' and 'Pi,'" are you referring to the
> Aronofsky
> film in the latter instance? If so, that's utterly preposterous to
> lump it in
> with some sort amorphous concept of the mainstream or "non-norm," no
> matter
> what you thought of the film - I didn't care for it much myself.)
I despise Darren Aronofsky's films, which to me are worse (and arrive
from a maybe more insidious headspace) than many of that so-called
amorphous realm of "mainstream" films. And why so tsk-tsk re: the
grand "amorphous concept," my delineation between "mainstream" and
"non-mainstream" films? Of course it's amorphous!
> Oh and if any of the above anti-youth comments were sarcasm, it's time
> to
> either identify it as such or drop it altogether. Again, it doesn't
> travel well
> over the internet.
Or at the very least, doesn't travel well with you, over the Internet.
DAMN KIDS!!!!
craig.
11036
From: A. Oscar Boyson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:53am
Subject: Re: hipsters
On Jun 15, 2004, at 2:21 AM, Gabe Klinger wrote:
>
> These are just some elements, and being open to experimental forms of
> music comes
> with the territory. In fact, obscure bands are frequently promoted in
> DJ culture; the
> "sampling" phenomenon...
>
You could even say that DJs are limited by the amount of obscure music
they have in their record collections. Sometimes it seems like the top
priority of hip-hop DJ/Producers such as DJ Shadow and RJD2 (who are
very much hip-hop, but hardly machismo) is to make sure their audiences
don't have a chance of recognizing the samples in each song. Musical
possibilities become defined by how many unrecognizable samples these
DJs can dig up. It's interesting too that some DJs, for instance DJ
Spooky, have resorted to sampling obscure films and more commonly film
scores in an effort to find unrecognizable stuff to help disguise their
sampled production.
oscar
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11037
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:00pm
Subject: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
>
> Was this a good or a bad example of how musicians use film? Was this
> a good or a bad group? (To my ears they were pretty good.) A recent
> one? (Two nights ago at Tower I discovered [!] Queen, one of my ex's
> favorites [we're ooooolld people over here].) I'm asking because I'm
> wondering if this is something that has gotten better. The Beatles
> were pretty awful auteurs, but I know that groups have been
> experimenting for, like, 30 years with audiovisual creation. Have
> some of them gotten good at it?
Bill, I'd love to turn you on -- to Radiohead. They're my favorite
group, contemporarily. Quite popular as well, which with the
radicalism of their music is sometimes surprising -- but, like The
Beatles (or Brian Wilson before), they manage to combine extreme
invention and imagination and always-pushing-themselves-further'ness
with (somehow) popular appeal despite the millennial dread and 'No
Logo'-ethos. Real 'pop-auteurs,' and I think they're the best
"rock/pop band" since The Beatles or Brian, as well. (I put my beloved
Smiths -very near- that region as well.) Check out their website at
http://www.radiohead.com
which is always visually interesting (designed by constant band
collaborator/cover-art artist Stanley Donwood and frontman Thom Yorke),
and undergoes whole overhauls once or twice a year. This is the
full-on short-film/video-clip version of their site --
http://www.radiohead.tv
I'd be happy to burn you a sampler CD. Although the albums are opuses
in and of themselves. The discography --
-'Pablo Honey' (1993) -- best being avoided, except for "Creep." The
album has a whole gives little evidence of the genius that would appear
on the next album and all beyond --
-'The Bends' (1995)
-'OK Computer' (1997)
-'Kid A' (2000)
-'Amnesiac' (2001)
-'Hail to the Thief' (2003)
craig.
11038
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
David, I would
> have never dreamed of saying
> something like this but you've forced my hand: If I
> ask to borrow your copy
> of the New Pornographers: Mass Romantic and you look
> confused, may I then say
> "Dear David, you were an unforgettable Peter Pan.
> You must play it again
> soon!"?
>
To which I'd "Why Kevin, I'm honored. I've never
beenmistaken for a lesbian before!"
> What this is all about is a failure of what my man
> Fredric J calls cognitive
> mapping, the ability to imagine the world outside
> your own sphere, to imagine
> that there is someone out there who likes both the
> Art Ensemble of Chicago AND
> Raul Ruiz, Fennesz and Gertrud (the shock horror!
> the shock horror!).
Why should such an individual be rare? The
relationship between "Gertrud" and the Art Ensemble of
Chicago is screamingly obvious. And what about Ornette
Coleman?
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11039
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:19pm
Subject: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
Thinking about Radiohead and the movies, I wanted to see what others
thought about the comment that Olivier Assayas made in the long
interview with him in CinemaScope magazine early last summer (when the
publication put 'demonlover' on the cover, even months before its North
American release -- very bold indeed). He wondered out loud, or rather
recounted how he had been wondering, why it was that Radiohead could
make the kinds of albums they do, and how Don DeLillo can write the
kinds of novels he does, but he ostensibly can't make films with the
same kind of freedom that either Radiohead or Don DeLillo have. I
suppose he was posing this as a kind of philosophical or theoretical
inquiry, but the answer (or the one that counts) seems to me to have a
practical basis: That it costs a lot less to pick up a pen and paper
(or turn on a word processor), or even amass a full band-owned
home-studio of equipment, than it does for even a small film to be
produced. (In the former two instances all processes of
pre-distribution production are controlled by the artists.)
'demonlover' is in its way equivalently radical to some of the works of
Messrs DeLillo and Radiohead, but it still had to be launched and
created with all the ardor and gravitas of fund-raising a
multi-national, 35mm production. If it's MiniDV that's the theoretical
truest approximation of the caméra-stylo, it will be interesting to see
who can make the first no-budget (pre-distribution) MiniDV
"Radiohead/DeLillo-equivalent" radical epic. (According to Chris
Marker, it might have been Isild Le Besco...)
craig.
11040
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:04pm
Subject: Re: Resnais question
>
> How's the subtitling on Chant?
I haven't had time yet to check--but I doubt that they're entirely
adequate, given all the puns in Queneau's text.
11041
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Resnais question
Not simply puns. Queneau's text is written in
Alexandrines: rhymed couplets.
--- Jonathan Rosenbaum
wrote:
>
> >
> > How's the subtitling on Chant?
>
> I haven't had time yet to check--but I doubt that
> they're entirely
> adequate, given all the puns in Queneau's text.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
11042
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
> > Entertainment Tonight should be spotlighting, oh I don't know, Saul
> > Levine instead.
>
> Oh yes, probably! Probably! Probably!
Hell, I'd even tape it....
-Sam
11043
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
> Aaron, I'm truly sorry that you "rarely trust anything musically
produced
> within the last 20 years." But do me a favor: check out my 2003 top
ten
> albums/singles list here:
> http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/03/critic.php?
criticid=1030&
> poll_year=2003&type=A&keyword=
> Buy/download some of it. Hell, I'll even burn you a CD! Seriously!
Then tell
> me you don't trust (?) a single second of any it. And if that's
truly (!) the
> case, email me offlist. I'd be happy to engage in a discussion (the
shock
> horror!) about it.
>
Kevin,
That's not to say I don't "listen" to anything newly produced (God
knows, I own both the new pornographers and belle & sebasian albums
from your list) = just that I think all great music (like great art)
should stand the test of time.
I hope that it clears up the misconception for you that I'm stuck in
another era, that's certainly not the case.
-Aaron
11044
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Filmsite.org
George,
I wanted to tell you that last weekend I was staring at my bookshelf
and was surprised to find your name! It so happens that my wife read
Essential Judaism for one of her classes as a seminarian. I told her
that you were the writer of the review of THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST
that both of us found to be most useful prior to our screening it
(her sentiments are virtually identical to yours, whereas I took a
different route).
Kevin
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> Well, it's not exactly relevant to this list, so I'll be brief
> (instead of giving an extended plug for my brilliant prose).
> My last book was Essential Judaism (published in hard and soft
> by Pocket Books) and this is a follow-up, Essential Torah, to be
published
> in Fall 2005 (if I ever finish it) by Schocken Books.
>
> However, the one after that will probably be a film book (finally!).
>
> g
>
> Our talk of justice is empty until the
> largest battleship has foundered on the
> forehead of a drowned man.
> --Paul Celan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "hotlove666"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:08 PM
> Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
>
>
> > George, what's your book about?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
11045
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: OutKast Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
I don't think I'm out of line at all to call the
> majority of huge hip-hop albums, and singles, and videos
> "machismo-and-mammon über alles" (I'm not on the Web, so I get my
> umlauts back), because that's what they well fucking are. And as
for
> this shining OutKast example that gets held up everytime someone
needs
> to spring to hip-hop's defense, like they're some shining paragon
of
> moral correctness, every OutKast album has been "ho" this
and "bitch"
> that just like everyone elses -- they're just more inventive
musically
> (although my opinion of their albums' production is that it's
almost
> grossly slick and super-ProTools'd). For my own hip-hop tastes, I
> prefer Anti-Pop Consortium or Mu or Public Enemy. Or Morrissey.
I agree that OutKast isn't quite immune from hip hop's culture of
misogyny that has plagued even it's most socially progressive
superstars (cf. Public Enemy's "Sophisticated B*tch" and "She Watch
Channel Zero?!?!"). What's bizarre is that "ho" and "bitch" are used
so much that they halfway prove Lenny Bruce's point that if you
overuse an obscenity enough it loses its impact... but only halfway.
Still Craig, it's not quite accurate to paint OutKast as merely a
highly musically talented strain of the same ol' b-boy bitch-
slapping. OutKast's "Ms. Jackson" is one of the most complicated and
heartfelt accounts of male-female relationships recorded in recent
memory, esp. in how it takes an expansive view, to actually
acknowledge that the issues between a man and a woman affect other
family members, their parents as well as their children. Plus all
that wacky musical shiznit that makes OutKast so exceptional.
I actually can't recall Andre 3000 making any misogynistic remarks...
though I can't say the same about Big Boi. To me one represents
enlightened superego, the other is id, and while this may
oversimplify their dynamic, their conflicting attitudes is part of
what makes OutKast such a fascinating paradox of a hip-hop act to
follow, its like Arrested Development-meets-NWA, or Common-meets-50
Cent.
And regardless of the production values of the music, one needs only
to listen to a few lines of Big Boi juxtaposed to Coltrane on GIANT
STEPS to see that rap at its finest is a worthy successor to jazz,
which is de facto what it is.
To make this movie-related, is it still confirmed that Dre 3000 is
playing the lead in the Hughes Brothers' biopic of Hendrix???
Sincerely,
The Other Kevin
(who shares Craig's loathing for Darren Aronofsky)
11046
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: OutKast Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
>I agree that OutKast isn't quite immune from hip hop's culture of
>misogyny that has plagued even it's most socially progressive
>superstars (cf. Public Enemy's "Sophisticated B*tch" and "She Watch
>Channel Zero?!?!"). What's bizarre is that "ho" and "bitch" are used
>so much that they halfway prove Lenny Bruce's point that if you
>overuse an obscenity enough it loses its impact... but only halfway.
>
>Still Craig, it's not quite accurate to paint OutKast as merely a
>highly musically talented strain of the same ol' b-boy bitch-
>slapping.
Fair enough. And I do like OutKast, in way-spaced-out doses (take both meanings of that if you will). Like you said about "Ms. Jackson," the duo themselves are a more complicated bag than the same old strain. (It wasn't Nelly, after all, who released "Bombs Over Baghdad.") It's just that part of what complicates their persona-pedigree are the stripper-poles and sex-skits inbetween tracks (is there no more tired trick that kills the flow of a hip-hop album than this?). I'm not viscerally offended by their use of "bitch" or "ho," but it does make me a groan that the two of them fall back on those tired tropes, when they're obviously intelligent and have often proven to be interested in producing more than run-of-the-mill whatevah. There's a good writer named Alex Abramovich who used to be a critic for Feed (before the dot-com fallout) who wrote a very spot-on piece about OutKast a few years ago, when 'Stankonia' came out -- can't remember if that was on Feed though, or not. (He also wrote a very good piece on Radiohead around the time 'Kid A' came out -- you might be able to find both with a Google archived somewhere online.)
>To make this movie-related, is it still confirmed that Dre 3000 is
>playing the lead in the Hughes Brothers' biopic of Hendrix???
I haven't heard much about this, but have heard alternately that (a) Andre 3000 was writing/directing a film for HBO, and OutKast's next release (or just a solo release from him?) would provide the soundtrack; (b) Andre and Big Boi are writing/directing a feature together for a major studio.
craig.
11047
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
Peter, thanx for your kind words on my Some Call It Loving piece. The Collier
short story on which it's based is very different from the movie. So
different that, as with Fennesz's cover of "Paint It Black," I wonder if Harris had to
actually pay for the rights.
<>
I like them all to varying degrees. My favorite after Some Call It Loving is
Fast-Walking (hyphenated on imdb but not my video copy). But despite some
thematic consistency, as JR points out in his capsule review of Cop (the mansion
from Some Call It Loving may even pop up again in Cop...not sure, though), SCIL
takes much more patience than any of the others. I didn't like it at first
myself.
The last I heard about Harris was that he had his hands in an adaptation of
James Ellroy's The Black Dahlia.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11048
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:54pm
Subject: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
>
> I'd be happy to burn you a sampler CD. Although the albums are
opuses
> in and of themselves. The discography --
>
> -'Pablo Honey' (1993) -- best being avoided, except for "Creep."
The
> album has a whole gives little evidence of the genius that would
appear
> on the next album and all beyond --
> -'The Bends' (1995)
> -'OK Computer' (1997)
> -'Kid A' (2000)
> -'Amnesiac' (2001)
> -'Hail to the Thief' (2003)
>
> craig.
Pleeze! By the way, I like Buckethead. Is that good/bad?
11049
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
>
>Pleeze! By the way, I like Buckethead. Is that good/bad?
Buckethead's pretty cool -- I think he's got the fastest fingers I've ever seen/heard. You know he joined (what's left of) Guns 'n Roses (i.e., Axl Rose) two years ago, right? Then quit the project early part of this year.
Send your address to me privately, and I'll be happy to get the Radiohead stuff out for you at the end of the week.
craig.
11050
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/DeLillo/Le Besco (was: A/R/D/FofC)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
> Thinking about Radiohead and the movies, I wanted to see what
others
> thought about the comment that Olivier Assayas made in the long
> interview with him in CinemaScope magazine early last summer (when
the
> publication put 'demonlover' on the cover, even months before its
North
> American release -- very bold indeed).
I REALLY like that interview. I've recommended to the group and do
again. It is very interesting re: H'wd/indies, etc.
He wondered out loud, or rather
> recounted how he had been wondering, why it was that Radiohead
could
> make the kinds of albums they do, and how Don DeLillo can write the
> kinds of novels he does,
I don't care for DeLillo myself, but I'd bet Euros to dollars that
Olivier heard about him from Mischka, who is heavily into American
fiction - as is Despleschin, by the way.
MiniDV
> "Radiohead/DeLillo-equivalent" radical epic. (According to Chris
> Marker, it might have been Isild Le Besco...)
Her again! Godard expressed doubts about her film (explicitly
disagreeing w. Marker) in CdC. Jacquot has made a MiniDV documentary
about her. They're all obsessed!
BTW, films JLG lists that "need the camera" (=good) are Du soileil
pour les gueux, The Apple, Angel at my Table, Recreations, Distant
Voices, Still Lives, Kairat, Apres la reconciliation, Saltimbank and
the films of Moullet. Bad are films that use the camera "as a
projector." Le Besco, he says, seeks to abolish the difference (like
Marker) achieving beautiful moments, but according a precedence given
to the text that he doesn't care for. ("My leetle dove, come into my
studio and I weel show you how eet's done..")
11051
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: hipsters
Bill, I have no idea what video/film you saw at Tower. I rarely get to see
videos so I can't recommend any of those. But does Masked and Anonymous count as
a musician using film? It was my favorite film last year.
And while you're mulling over Radiohead (they are, sadly, quite smashing),
may I suggest some non-macho uber-alles or whatever mainstream hip-hop: Missy
Elliott, Timbaland and Magoo, N.E.R.D., The Roots, etc. Then again, some may say
they're not even hip-hop. Nor mainstream. Nor even black people. Oh well.
Some of the macho stuff is great anyway. And there are hours and hours of
slightly less mainstream hip-hop for the non-macho set. Recommendations available
upon request.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11052
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Youth Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
In a message dated 6/15/04 11:14:11 AM, machinegunmccain@y... writes:
> I own both the new pornographers and belle & sebasian albums from your
> list) = just that I think all great music (like great art) should stand the test
> of time. I hope that it clears up the misconception for you that I'm stuck in
> another era, that's certainly not the case.
>
But Aaron, will you give them the CHANCE to stand the test of time? Those
albums are barely a year old.
And thanx to "the Other Kevin" for a breath of fresh air re: Public Enemy
although let's not forget their macho homophobia on Fear of a Gay Planet. They're
still one of the very greatest, though!
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11053
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sarris' italics
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
wrote:
> I don't think there is an anomaly here. If I remember correctly --
and I
> can't check because my copy of American Ciinema is buried under
> (appropriately enough) a stack of videotapes in the next room --
the purpose
> of the italics was to draw attention to titles that were important,
not
> necessarily good.
Perfectly ambiguous - they're "the highlights of a director's
career" - they indicate the diff. between "those movies that made it
and those that did not" - they're "guides" for enthusiasts who don't
have time to "check out every possibility of personal expression in
the cinema." "Made it" is value-free; "guides" isn't. "Highlights"
goes right down the middle.
11054
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:36pm
Subject: Re: OutKast Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
Andre and Big Boi are writing/directing a feature together for a
major studio.
>
> craig.
I liked Ice-T's debut, The Players Club. Wrote the presskit.
11055
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:37pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
>
> The last I heard about Harris was that he had his hands in an
adaptation of
> James Ellroy's The Black Dahlia.
>
> Kevin John
Isn't De Palma making that?
11056
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:40pm
Subject: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
>
> Buckethead's pretty cool -- I think he's got the fastest fingers
I've ever seen/heard. You know he joined (what's left of) Guns 'n
Roses (i.e., Axl Rose) two years ago, right?
I like Guns 'n' Roses (ie Axl Rose) a lot. And none of this is OT as
far as I'm concerned. Some of the posts have been extremely
educational for me - I'm going looking for Outkast -- and they
interface like a madman with film and film criticism.
11057
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:42pm
Subject: Re: hipsters
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Bill, I have no idea what video/film you saw at Tower. I rarely get
to see
> videos so I can't recommend any of those. But does Masked and
Anonymous count as
> a musician using film? It was my favorite film last year.
Some indie filmmaker friends strongly recommended it. Haven't caught
it yet.
>
> And while you're mulling over Radiohead (they are, sadly, quite
smashing),
> may I suggest some non-macho uber-alles or whatever mainstream hip-
hop: Missy
> Elliott, Timbaland and Magoo, N.E.R.D., The Roots, etc.
Noted.
> Some of the macho stuff is great anyway. And there are hours and
hours of
> slightly less mainstream hip-hop for the non-macho set.
Recommendations available
> upon request.
All recommendations are more than welcome.
11058
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:45pm
Subject: RE: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
> I'm going looking for Outkast -- and they
> interface like a madman with film and film criticism.
J-P Gorin spoke about them quite a bit the last time
I attended one of his lectures (on "Mysterious Object
at Noon").
Jonathan Takagi
11059
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:58pm
Subject: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Takagi"
wrote:
>
> > I'm going looking for Outkast -- and they
> > interface like a madman with film and film criticism.
>
> J-P Gorin spoke about them quite a bit the last time
> I attended one of his lectures (on "Mysterious Object
> at Noon").
>
> Jonathan Takagi
He should make another movie. I liked Poto and Cabengo - haven't seen
the others.
11060
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
TARNATION by Jonathan Caouette, shown at Cannes, might be the one.
From the PJ Harvey interview on Les Inrockuptibles #443:
"When you see the mentality that's about to take over the music industry,
there's reason to be afraid. Bad mainstream pop exists for a long time, but
it risks nowadays to take all place and leave authentic songwriters by
themselves. If I appeared today with an album like DRY [her first], I would
have no chance to be heard and noticed. I'm so happy when a group like
Radiohead or OutKast hits the top of the charts. That's a reward for
everyone. No one deserves to be exposed to low and ugly things."
so now is she a popist or a rockist? :)
ruy,
who likes fennesz, timbaland, bitchin' muthafucker jay-z, evan parker,
charlie's angels, gertrud, spring heel jack with the blue series continuum
and bloodshy & avant's intoxicated mix of britney spears.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Keller"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
Thinking about Radiohead and the movies, I wanted to see what others
thought about the comment that Olivier Assayas made in the long
interview with him in CinemaScope magazine early last summer (when the
publication put 'demonlover' on the cover, even months before its North
American release -- very bold indeed). He wondered out loud, or rather
recounted how he had been wondering, why it was that Radiohead could
make the kinds of albums they do, and how Don DeLillo can write the
kinds of novels he does, but he ostensibly can't make films with the
same kind of freedom that either Radiohead or Don DeLillo have. I
suppose he was posing this as a kind of philosophical or theoretical
inquiry, but the answer (or the one that counts) seems to me to have a
practical basis: That it costs a lot less to pick up a pen and paper
(or turn on a word processor), or even amass a full band-owned
home-studio of equipment, than it does for even a small film to be
produced. (In the former two instances all processes of
pre-distribution production are controlled by the artists.)
'demonlover' is in its way equivalently radical to some of the works of
Messrs DeLillo and Radiohead, but it still had to be launched and
created with all the ardor and gravitas of fund-raising a
multi-national, 35mm production. If it's MiniDV that's the theoretical
truest approximation of the caméra-stylo, it will be interesting to see
who can make the first no-budget (pre-distribution) MiniDV
"Radiohead/DeLillo-equivalent" radical epic. (According to Chris
Marker, it might have been Isild Le Besco...)
craig.
Yahoo! Groups Links
11061
From: Nick
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
Loving the intelligent & Interesting conv. re: music/film/hipsters.
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned The Director's Label series of DVDs.
Surely the best way to become acquainted with some of the most
imaginative cutting edge music videos from the last 10 or so years.
Michel Gondry, Chris Cunningham, Spike Jonze, and I believe there's a
whole raft more on the way.
One of my favourites from this series was Gondry's "train journey"
video, which I think was for the Chemical Brothers....
-Nick Wrigley>-
11062
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:07pm
Subject: Spider-Man 2
Liked this one a lot. I was bored by the first one. Critics will likely get over-excited
about it, but for the time being it's the best Hollywood movie of 2004, leagues ahead
of TROY and HARRY POTTER #3.
Gabe
11063
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Luc Besson Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
Craig,
I'm kind of late getting into Radiohead even though I have most of
their albums (I was out of the country right when they blew up, it's
funny how two years out can warp the fabrick of one's pop culture
existence, it's like an early taste of what it must be like to turn
40). I like KID A more than anything else they've done -- OK
COMPUTER may very well be the masterpiece everyone says it is, but I
find it jarring and dissonant.
It's interesting that you and I are exchanging messages for the first
time in the wake of the other Kevin's latest "rockism" rant, and I'll
tell you why. I, like many others, got to know you through the
Yahoo! Godard group you run, and which I still enjoy even though I
never post to it (I found the recent Godard/Moore battle royale very
entertaining and interesting). The one time I ever posted anything
was when I wondered out loud if Luc Besson, for better or worse,
could be compared in any way to early Godard (specifically I was
thinking of two issues: a kinetic, disjunctive approach to
filmmaking, and its employment towards appropriating well-worn
Hollywood conventions in a way that is complimentary, cannibalistic,
and parodically critical all at once). Frankly at the time I could
hardly stand Besson at the time, but a friend of mine on another
board was pushing them on me (watching LEON/THE PROFESSIONAL was a
life-changing experience for him, the kind Kevin John's top ten list
espouses -- and no, he wasn't 15 at the time, try 45) and getting
really bitter that everyone on this other discussion board could
praise Godard, Bunuel et al to the skies and not even give Besson the
time of day -- he was convinced that there was a double standard at
work that wouldn't even bother to give Besson due consideration, thus
pointing out the hypocrisy of so-called discerning cinephiles. I, of
course, took the bait and insisted that we were being fair-minded in
our evaluation of Besson, and came up with some terms for comparison,
which I mentioned above. I even told him that I would post to your
Godard board to see what others would make of my intertextual
connections. and so I did, and I got my ass laughed off the board in
total scornful contempt. "How dare you even mention a hack like Luc
Besson on the Godard board!" "This board is for discussing artists
only!" yada yada yada... They weren't even listening to the terms I
had given for an open comparison. And so my Besson-loving colleague
had his point proven (though I have never ever admitted it to him,
otherwise he'd entrench himself even deeper in his contempt for film
critics and scholars, the very self-justifying attitude I am trying
to combat).
The conclusion I derived from this chastening experience is that the
French New Wave had come full circle -- one of their original agendas
was to explore the possibilities of artistry among those dismissed by
the critical establishment as studio hacks, to fight against the
snobbery of high culture and espouse a new and direct appreciation of
cinema as a living artform... and what do we find today but a
regression back into more of the same, with the former rebels taking
the place of the establishment and building up walls against all
comers. In a word, rockism!
Please bear in mind that this is not meant to be a criticism of the
Godard board, its constituents or your role in managing it -- it just
happened to be the locus of a significant event in developing my own
perspective on the politics of aesthetics, one that I felt compelled
to share.
11064
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Filmsite.org
Many thanks for the kind words.
And of course anyone on the list who wants to buy a copy of the book
certainly should, even though there isn't any film in it. (heh,heh)
g
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Lee"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 12:50 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
> George,
>
> I wanted to tell you that last weekend I was staring at my bookshelf
> and was surprised to find your name! It so happens that my wife read
> Essential Judaism for one of her classes as a seminarian. I told her
> that you were the writer of the review of THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST
> that both of us found to be most useful prior to our screening it
> (her sentiments are virtually identical to yours, whereas I took a
> different route).
>
> Kevin
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "George Robinson"
> wrote:
> > Well, it's not exactly relevant to this list, so I'll be brief
> > (instead of giving an extended plug for my brilliant prose).
> > My last book was Essential Judaism (published in hard and soft
> > by Pocket Books) and this is a follow-up, Essential Torah, to be
> published
> > in Fall 2005 (if I ever finish it) by Schocken Books.
> >
> > However, the one after that will probably be a film book (finally!).
> >
> > g
> >
> > Our talk of justice is empty until the
> > largest battleship has foundered on the
> > forehead of a drowned man.
> > --Paul Celan
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "hotlove666"
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:08 PM
> > Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Filmsite.org
> >
> >
> > > George, what's your book about?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
11065
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> >
> > The last I heard about Harris was that he had his hands in an
> adaptation of
> > James Ellroy's The Black Dahlia.
> >
> > Kevin John
>
> Isn't De Palma making that?
I believe it begins filming with De Palma directing in September.
Mark Wahlberg (why?) and Scarlett Johansson star. Dante Ferreti's the
set designer, and Vilmos Zsigmond is the DP.
All of this culled from the best De Palma resource on the web:
http://www.angelfire.com/de/palma/
=Aaron
11066
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:46pm
Subject: Mystic River Question
I know that MYSTIC RIVER is old news around here by now. But I
didn't see it during its initial release and just caught up with it
this week on DVD. The search archive for this site is now a disaster,
as I'm sure you all know, and so trying to find the old postings on
the film is too tedious for someone as lazy as me.
But I was genuinely puzzled by the concluding 15 minutes or so of the
film and was wondering if anyone in the group has some kind of
interpretation of what it is all supposed to mean. Specifically, I
was uncertain as to how I was supposed to read Laura Linney's speech
to Sean Penn that he is now a "king." Is this supposed to be a
deeply ironic gesture, not on the part of the character so much as on
the part of the filmmakers in light of the fact that Penn has killed
a childhood friend for ultimately no reason? And if the speech is
not meant to be ironic, what is the purpose of it as it did not
entirely make sense to me in relation to that character? (I thought
of the speech again last night when I went to see THE STEPFORD WIVES,
politically a sharper film than MYSTIC RIVER, when one of the
programmed wives was responding to her husband's sexual prowess by
calling him a "master" and a "king.")
And why doesn't Kevin Bacon turn in Penn when he knows that he killed
Robbins? Are we supposed to believe that he will do this eventually?
Or that it doesn't fundamentally matter? Or that Penn will be caught
some day anyway? Or does Bacon wish to stop the cycle of betrayals
and violence?
Perhaps the film is an ambiguous masterpiece along the lines of late
fifties/early sixties Preminger. I don't know. My first response,
though, is that it is a grandiose muddle, filled with self-conscious
echoes of Shakespearean tragedy which it is not able to follow
through on. But I'd have to give it another look. Some day.
11067
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:22pm
Subject: Re: Spider-Man 2
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> Liked this one a lot. I was bored by the first one. Critics will
likely get over-excited
> about it, but for the time being it's the best Hollywood movie of
2004, leagues ahead
> of TROY and HARRY POTTER #3.
>
> Gabe
Glad to hear it. I was bored by 1 too.
11068
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:34pm
Subject: Re: Luc Besson Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
> Please bear in mind that this is not meant to be a criticism of the
> Godard board, its constituents or your role in managing it -- it
just
> happened to be the locus of a significant event in developing my
own
> perspective on the politics of aesthetics, one that I felt
compelled
> to share.
It's all true, Craig, but Besson isn't a great example. Apart from
Nikita, I'm not too crazy about any of his films. But he's yards more
interesting than Chris Columbus, Wolfgang Petersen (who had his
chance w. Enemy Mine and blew it), Frank Coraci, and on and on.
Steven Sommers finally pulled up within range of Besson in his last
film - but ultimately, so what?
The larger point, that critics and buffs can get closed-off and
artereosclerotic (sp?), is quite true, and is one reason I'm glad to
see all these posts about current music popping up. We need to forge
new tools to forge ahead, and Godard, whose camera/projector theory
is valuable but hardly new, won't be supplying them.
That's also why I was hyping a book called Place for Us, about gays
and B'way, here at a_film_by a while back. At this point, I'll take
models for film criticism wherever I can find them, and film
criticism is not necessarily the best place to look.
11069
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
). He wondered out loud, or rather
> recounted how he had been wondering, why it was that Radiohead
could
> make the kinds of albums they do, and how Don DeLillo can write the
> kinds of novels he does, but he ostensibly can't make films with
the
> same kind of freedom that either Radiohead or Don DeLillo have. I
DeLillo is sometimes difficult to follow. "Demonlover" is nearly
impossible to follow (at least in its second half, or maybe last
third). That's something in common.
I like most of Assayas's films and "Demonlover" is quite brilliant
but it just doesn't make sense to me. Moreover I couldn't understand
a word Connie Nielsen was saying in French -- is she speaking her own
lines or is she dubbed ? She sounds like a bad ventriloquist -- and I
had to look at the English subtitles... Bill, is the teenager in the
closing sequence supposed to be the auteur of the whole story (and
thereby of the film itself)? I need help.
JPC
11070
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:36pm
Subject: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick wrote:
> Loving the intelligent & Interesting conv. re: music/film/hipsters.
>
> I'm surprised no-one's mentioned The Director's Label series of
DVDs.
> Surely the best way to become acquainted with some of the most
> imaginative cutting edge music videos from the last 10 or so years.
> Michel Gondry, Chris Cunningham, Spike Jonze, and I believe there's
a
> whole raft more on the way.
>
> One of my favourites from this series was Gondry's "train journey"
> video, which I think was for the Chemical Brothers....
>
> -Nick Wrigley>-
Thanks for the tip!
11071
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
"The last I heard about Harris was that he had his hands in an
adaptation of James Ellroy's The Black Dahlia."
An Ellroy fan told me that Harris and Woods planned to make more
movie's from Ellroy's Sgt. Lloyd Hopkins novels but that the
commercial disappointment that COP turned out to be put an end to
their plans. Harris did have an option on "The Black Dahalia" for
awhile.
Incidentlly, Harris's THE BEDFORD INCIDENT got a lot of play during
the mid-1980s at neighborhood Nuclear Freeze Movement fund raisers.
I must have seen it 3 times at the Free Association in NYC; maybe it
was a cheap rental (16 mm, not video.)
Richard
11072
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question
Earlier posts concurred that the film was not on the level of
Unforgiven, but good. The ending is designed to be disturbing: I
imagine Lauara Bush had great sex with Chimpy after he invaded Iraq,
but that was the wrong country, as SPOILER COMING Robbins is the
wrong man = a parallel that occurred to both Jonathan Rosenbaum and
Andy Klein out here ihn LA. Penn is riding high at the end, but Bacon
certainly makes a threatening gesture at him, so we are left to
imagine that either he'll get him, or (because you have to prove
guilt, and there is no evidence to do so) at a minimum Jimmy will be
expecting a knock on the door that never comes: uneasy lies the head
that wears the crown. The book, which I haven't looked at, may fill
in those blanks, but that's how the film leaves it. The Preminger
comparison is an intriguing one that hadn't occurred to me.
11073
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
Bill, is the teenager in the
> closing sequence supposed to be the auteur of the whole story (and
> thereby of the film itself)? I need help.
>
> JPC
Connie has been captured and punished by the big boys, who have
installed her in their torture chamber, where any punk kid with his
Dad's credit card can sign on and torture her long-distance. That's
the kid at the end. And if you were looking at the subtitles for even
one second while Connie Nielsen was on screen, you're crazy! The
French are good at making women look good. Cf. Pascal Bonitzer's
soft, romantic portrayal of the brittly Brit-ish Kirstin Scott Thomas
in his last, uneven, but well-worth-seeing film.
11074
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:52pm
Subject: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> > >
> > > The last I heard about Harris was that he had his hands in an
> > adaptation of
> > > James Ellroy's The Black Dahlia.
> > >
> > > Kevin John
> >
> > Isn't De Palma making that?
>
> I believe it begins filming with De Palma directing in September.
> Mark Wahlberg (why?) and Scarlett Johansson star.
Because no studio will ever allow an Ellroy protagonist to be as
unsympathetic in the movie as he was in the book - cf. LA
Confidential. Too bad Harris couldn't get it together to do Ellroy.
11075
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question
Joe, what you said about "late fifties/early sixties Preminger" resonates
with my own take on "Mystic River." Now, I don't think Eastwood is as great as
Preminger, or that the film resembles a Preminger film particularly until the
final scene, with those exchange of looks between Bacon and Penn, and (just as
importantly, perhaps) Harden and Linney. Besides being, from my perspective,
bravura filmmaking which communicates volumes without a line of dialogue
(except for Harden calling out her son's name in the parade), this scene
encapsulates the cycle of revenge, as it were, which runs through the whole film. I
think we're meant to take from Bacon's gesture towards Penn that he'll be coming
after him someday, just as Penn went after Robbins (and was fatally wrong.) I
found it to be a staggering scene (and a heartbreaking scene because it
suggests there's no end to the revenge), and the one which makes "Mystic River" for
me one of Eastwood's greatest films.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11076
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:59pm
Subject: Re: N*gga Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> And thanx to "the Other Kevin" for a breath of fresh air re: Public
Enemy
> although let's not forget their macho homophobia on Fear of a Gay
Planet. They're
> still one of the very greatest, though!
>
> Kevin John
To this point, I'd say that, just as it might be more useful not to
attack Gibson for the offensive elements of THE PASSION but to cast a
critical eye on the institution of certain strains of Christianity
(hell I won't even be that tactical, let's just say Christianity at
the CORE -- after all, it's called fundamentalism for a reason) and
how and why it tolerates and promotes such views, I suggest that
rather than attack PE or OutKast et al for the offensive material
that pervades their works, take Marvin Gaye's advice, stop beating
around the bush, and just go straight after the real "culprit" --
African American culture and the forces that shape it into what it is
as a social phenomenon, much less a system of values negotiating its
position in the greater American (and global, lest we forget the
hipsters in Tokyo and Berlin sporting afros and gold chains) cultural
marketplace. Those guys aren't just saying "b*tch" to wear their
misogyny on their sleeve -- it plays into a system of cultural
signifiers that's much larger than they are, with many issues at
work, where the production of culture intersects with economy and
sexual/racial politics. I suppose in this regard they have more in
common with Britney Spears than they would ever want to admit -- and
we're not so much talking about the art of music as we are talking
about the art of mass-media marketing communications.
Did anyone else read, with some degree of consternation, the NY Times
Sunday article lamenting the racial political implications of SOUL
PLANE, a tepidly politically correct article written by A.O. Scott
(of all people, boy the editors must have forgotten that Elvis
Mitchell had left the building)?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/movies/13SCOT.html
I'm glad that Scott pays SWEET SWEETBACK'S BAADASSSS SONG some dues,
but the fact that he uses the film to make a point about how far
downhill SOUL PLANE is in the Dignified Black Cinema department is
ludicrous. SWEET SWEETBACK (the cinematic equivalent of the kind of
misogynistic hip hop Craig detests) in its own way is as offensive as
the retrograde minstrelry of SOUL PLANE, so how far do we really get
in trying to position one as being better than the other? Again,
wouldn't it get us further to understand how they are both responses
to the same problem of making an African American film that can
successfully reach an audience? The point that Scott fails to
reflect on is that SOUL PLANE is not simply a regression into
subservient minstrelry for racist enjoyment; such an assertion is
complicated by the fact that the film is targeted primarily at a
Black American audience. Why not blame them for what they want? Or
is it conceivable that this minstrel humor needn't be defined as
intrinsically marked by racist attitudes? Is this really a tumor
that needs to be removed immediately from Black culture, or has it
already metastasized to become part of its vital organs? Is there
any significance to the movie's central metaphor of this airline,
this plane, operated exclusively by African Americans, who choose to
run it any ol' buffoonish way they please, because they find it to be
an act of validation against the dominant cultural codes that Blacks
and other minorities (and perhaps even one or two white people) find
systematically oppressive on a daily basis?
So getting back to PE's homophobia, I think to really criticize this
righteously, we have to talk about homophobia at large in the Black
community. A very serious issue to be concerned with, when one
thinks about an exciting new movie like Rodney Evans' BROTHER TO
BROTHER, a fascinating fictionalized exploration of the gay
subculture during the Harlem Renaissance, a film that won awards in
Sundance and got full financing and support from cultural
organizations (an unheard of phenomenon in America), and yet everyone
behind the film is scared shitless that the black community isn't
going to embrace it.
Other Kevin
11077
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
In a message dated 6/15/04 2:24:50 PM, hotlove666@y... writes:
> Isn't De Palma making that?
>
I heard Harris was writing the screenplay. But IMDb says it's someone named
Josh Friedman.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11078
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:01pm
Subject: Public Taste: controlled by Promotion? (was: Hipsters)
People were speculating that if Brakhage received hype and ad campaigns on
the level of Spider-Man, Lord of the Rings, etc, that "Dog Star Man" would pack
them into the multiplexes.
I have loved Brakhage for over 30 years, so this is not a criticism.
BUT
Many big hits of the last ten years combine "violence with special effects".
Think Titantic, Twister, Star Wars, LOTR, Jurassic Park, Pirates of the
Caribbean, The Matrix, Pearl Harbor etc. One suspects that such films have a huge
audience. Hype certainly plays a role in getting people familiar with these
films' opening weekends, etc. But the way the public flocks to this one kind of
film over and over again suggests that many people are actively looking for this
kind of film.
The success of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" sufggests that the public is
willing to read subtitles, if they can get a film full of violence (kung fu
action) with special effects.
If many people went to see "Dog Star Man", they would notice that there were
no "action sequences" (fight scenes, violence) and no "special effects". They
would feel they were in the "wrong kind of movie".
The same point applies to filmmakers far more Pop than Brakhage. If the
public saw "Seven Men From Now" or "Stars in My Crown", they would probably miss
the "violence and special effects".
I personally have little interest in either violence or special effects. And
cannot figure out why people give a damn about either.
One also thinks that this is a passing fad. 50 years from now, all these
films are probably going to look just plain weird to people. What were Grampa and
Grandma thinking back in 2002, to like such strange films???
Years ago, there was a lot of public interest in genre. Unfortunately, this
is disappearing from Hollywood film and TV. Look at all the TV detective shows
made in the 1980's, compared with today.
I suspect that Hollywood moguls are not doing enough to preserve genre. Maybe
even deliberately destroying it. A great shame!
Mike Grost
11079
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:01pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
> Bill, is the teenager in the
> > closing sequence supposed to be the auteur of the whole story
(and
> > thereby of the film itself)? I need help.
> >
> > JPC
>
> Connie has been captured and punished by the big boys, who have
> installed her in their torture chamber, where any punk kid with his
> Dad's credit card can sign on and torture her long-distance. That's
> the kid at the end.
Oh that's all? I was reading too much into it then... I like my
version better.
And if you were looking at the subtitles for even
> one second while Connie Nielsen was on screen, you're crazy!
Maybe I should have turned off the sound altogether then. But she
doesn't particularly turn me on, and voice is important to me and her
voice and speech delivery annoy me. So you didn't answer my question:
is she or isn't she dubbed? Or don't you know? I thought you knew
EVERYTHING.
The one who really turns me on is Gina Gershon but she's pretty much
wasted in the film and not as sexy by far as she was in "Bound". Of
course she's almost ten years older but that's no reason.
11080
From: programming
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Purple Plain - not so plain
On 6/14/04 5:22 PM, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> You must absolutely drop everything and rush to see "The Purple
> Plain". Very few "war movies" equal its intelligence and sensitivity,
> its sense of visual and aural sensations. Parrish's other masterpiece
> is his great western "The Wonderful Country" which has one of
> Mitchum's best performances ever in the role of a man straddling two
> cultures and comfortable in neither. very sad and very beautiful.
> JPC
JP,
Thanks for the prodding.
Not a masterpiece, I think, and no strong "authorial" voice, but a very
solid and stylish film with amazing color, nice use of sound, and some
extremely good and effective close up shots (especially of Peck). Would
recommend if others have a chance to see. Newly struck 35mm archival print,
looked great. What's up with the "glow-in-the-dark" sweat?
Patrick F
Chicago
11081
From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> Bill, is the teenager in the
> > closing sequence supposed to be the auteur of the whole story (and
> > thereby of the film itself)? I need help.
> >
> > JPC
>
> Connie has been captured and punished by the big boys, who have
> installed her in their torture chamber, where any punk kid with his
> Dad's credit card can sign on and torture her long-distance. That's
> the kid at the end. And if you were looking at the subtitles for even
> one second while Connie Nielsen was on screen, you're crazy! The
> French are good at making women look good. Cf. Pascal Bonitzer's
> soft, romantic portrayal of the brittly Brit-ish Kirstin Scott Thomas
> in his last, uneven, but well-worth-seeing film.
I was confused by the last half hour of _Demonlover_. I'm not
sure what was going on between Connie Nielsen and Chloë Sevigny.
Also, what happened with Connie Nielsen and Charles Berling? Did
she kill kim, or did he kill himself? Why?
Paul
11082
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:16pm
Subject: Soul Plane (Was: N*gga Bashing!!)
Other Kevin, point duly taken re: Pubic Enemy. But at the very least, I
confessed my love of them right away. And I'd like to respond to your comments re:
Soul Plane but I'm writing a piece comparing it favorably to Harry Potter 3
(sorry, David, I just didn't get it).
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11083
From:
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:19pm
Subject: Re: hipsters
I've never been hip. In fact, I'm so un-hip it isn't funny.
Have never heard of ANY of the musicians mentioned in recent posts. Good! I'm
learning. I last bought a current popular music album in 1965, at age 11
(Simon & Garfunkel). So this has nothing to do with the fact I'm over 40.
Was listening to a Thomas Weelkes CD this morning while reading a_film_by.
Weelkes was an English composer who was a contemporary of Shakespeare. He is NOT
hip.
If you haven't heard Weelkes' madrigal "As Vesta was from Latmos' hill
descending", you are now 400 years behind the times!
Have long wished to make a music video of another English piece of this era,
"Spem in Allium" of Thomas Tallis. (Hint: the recording by "The Tallis
Scholars" is superb.)
I will try to learn more about Radiohead and Fennesz.
Years ago enjoyed the movie "Rappin" (Joel Silberg, 1985).
Being hip is good if it leads you to cutting edge artists.
But it can blind you to the vast world of the square.
As Weird Al Yankovic put it, "be there or be octagonal!"
Mike Grost
11084
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Purple Plain - not so plain
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming
wrote:
"What's up with the 'glow-in-the-dark' sweat?"
I viewed a 16mm print last month with my friend the gaffer and noted
that too. He said it was because it was a day-for-night shot. I
hope the 35mm comes to LA.
Richard
11085
From: Noel Vera
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Dinner with Harris (was: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report))
> Jonathan, I've read your Sight and Sound piece
> (which is lovely) but never
> the Voice and Comment pieces. A-hunting I will go.
> And dinner with James B.
> Harris??
>
> Just fainted,
>
> Kevin John
And Pierre Rissient.
Scary looking guy, Rissient. Reminds me of Ernst
Stavro Blofeld.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11086
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: N*gga Bashing!! (Was: Lucas, Needham, Penn)
--- Kevin Lee wrote:
> To this point, I'd say that, just as it might be
> more useful not to
> attack Gibson for the offensive elements of THE
> PASSION but to cast a
> critical eye on the institution of certain strains
> of Christianity
> (hell I won't even be that tactical, let's just say
> Christianity at
> the CORE -- after all, it's called fundamentalism
> for a reason) and
> how and why it tolerates and promotes such views, I
> suggest that
> rather than attack PE or OutKast et al for the
> offensive material
> that pervades their works, take Marvin Gaye's
> advice, stop beating
> around the bush, and just go straight after the real
> "culprit" --
> African American culture and the forces that shape
> it into what it is
> as a social phenomenon, much less a system of values
> negotiating its
> position in the greater American (and global, lest
> we forget the
> hipsters in Tokyo and Berlin sporting afros and gold
> chains) cultural
> marketplace.
BULLSHIT!!!
Buck-passsing is NOT appreciated. You say it --you
justify yourself.
I'm part of African-American culture too, you know.
Just not the part that Hip-hop would so much as DREAM
of recognizing.
Those guys aren't just saying "b*tch"
> to wear their
> misogyny on their sleeve -- it plays into a system
> of cultural
> signifiers that's much larger than they are, with
> many issues at
> work, where the production of culture intersects
> with economy and
> sexual/racial politics.
And blah-blah-blah. No dice.
Apres Gil-Scott Heron le deluge!
I suppose in this regard
> they have more in
> common with Britney Spears than they would ever want
> to admit -- and
> we're not so much talking about the art of music as
> we are talking
> about the art of mass-media marketing
> communications.
>
Not something to be at all proud of.
The connection is simply that she's the cheap
hootchie-mama they want to fuck.
> Did anyone else read, with some degree of
> consternation, the NY Times
> Sunday article lamenting the racial political
> implications of SOUL
> PLANE, a tepidly politically correct article written
> by A.O. Scott
> (of all people, boy the editors must have forgotten
> that Elvis
> Mitchell had left the building)?
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/movies/13SCOT.html
>
If he were back in the building he'd have nothing to
say about it.
"Soul Plane" makesme long for the Marivaux-like
sophistication of Pigmeat Markham.
> I'm glad that Scott pays SWEET SWEETBACK'S BAADASSSS
> SONG some dues,
> but the fact that he uses the film to make a point
> about how far
> downhill SOUL PLANE is in the Dignified Black Cinema
> department is
> ludicrous. SWEET SWEETBACK (the cinematic
> equivalent of the kind of
> misogynistic hip hop Craig detests) in its own way
> is as offensive as
> the retrograde minstrelry of SOUL PLANE, so how far
> do we really get
> in trying to position one as being better than the
> other?
I beg to differ. But don't have the time, space or
inclination to get into anything more about it at this
point.
Suffice to say "Sweetback' was a truly original work.
There was literally NOTHING around like it in 1971,
and there's really nothing like it today.
Again,
> wouldn't it get us further to understand how they
> are both responses
> to the same problem of making an African American
> film that can
> successfully reach an audience?
What "problem"? Black people want to go to the movies
to see films about blacc people -- not the same
tired-ass hootchies and pimps they get spoon-fed to
them every night on UPN.
The point that
> Scott fails to
> reflect on is that SOUL PLANE is not simply a
> regression into
> subservient minstrelry for racist enjoyment; such an
> assertion is
> complicated by the fact that the film is targeted
> primarily at a
> Black American audience. Why not blame them for
> what they want?
How in hell do you know what black people want? This
is what we're GIVEN. What I WANT is "The Cool World"
Or
> is it conceivable that this minstrel humor needn't
> be defined as
> intrinsically marked by racist attitudes? Is this
> really a tumor
> that needs to be removed immediately from Black
> culture, or has it
> already metastasized to become part of its vital
> organs?
Tumor. MEDIC!!!!
Is there
> any significance to the movie's central metaphor of
> this airline,
> this plane, operated exclusively by African
> Americans, who choose to
> run it any ol' buffoonish way they please, because
> they find it to be
> an act of validation against the dominant cultural
> codes that Blacks
> and other minorities (and perhaps even one or two
> white people) find
> systematically oppressive on a daily basis?
>
No. None whatsoever.
> So getting back to PE's homophobia, I think to
> really criticize this
> righteously, we have to talk about homophobia at
> large in the Black
> community. A very serious issue to be concerned
> with, when one
> thinks about an exciting new movie like Rodney
> Evans' BROTHER TO
> BROTHER, a fascinating fictionalized exploration of
> the gay
> subculture during the Harlem Renaissance, a film
> that won awards in
> Sundance and got full financing and support from
> cultural
> organizations (an unheard of phenomenon in America),
> and yet everyone
> behind the film is scared shitless that the black
> community isn't
> going to embrace it.
>
For the very good reason that the black community
STILL hasn't gotten over "Tongues Untied" and "Looking
For Langston."
I look forward to this new film with some degree of
trepidation.
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11087
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:30pm
Subject: Re: OT? More Music (was: hipsters)
Bill,
If David can post Cole Porter lyrics all the time, I can certainly
bring your attention to one of my favorite OutKast songs. One that
particularly illustrates the dichotomy between its two members (a
dichotomy so present that they actually recorded their last double
album SPEAKERBOXXX/THE LOVE BELOW separately, one disc apiece). Here
on the topic of post-marital relationships, you've got Andre 3000's
wounded but conciliatory optimism sandwiched between two stanzas of
Big Boy's unyielding thug realism. Together they weave quite a vivid
portrait of the conflicting attitudes in the contemporary Black male
in facing its all-too-common predicament of marital and family
dissolution.
[Andre]
Yeah this one right here goes out to all the baby's mamas' mamas...
Yeah, go like this
Chorus:
I'm sorry Ms. Jackson [OOOH]
I am for real
Never meant to make your daughter cry
I apologize a trillion times
[Big Boi]
A baby drama mama, don't like me
She doing things like havin her boys some from her neighborhood to
the studio tryin to fight me
She need to get a piece of the american pie and take her bite out
That's my house, I disconnect the cable and turn the lights out
And let her know her grandchild is a baby, and not a paycheck
Private schools, daycare, shit, medical bills, I'll pay that
I love your mom and everything, see I ain't the one who laid down
She wanna rib you up to start a custody war, my lawyers stay down
Shit, you never got a chance to hear my side of the story, we was
divided
She had fish fries and cookouts for my child's birthday I ain't
invited
Despite it, I show her the utmost respect when I follow through
All you, do is defend that lady when I call you, yeah
CHORUS:
I'm sorry Ms. Jackson [OOOH]
I am for real
Never meant to make your daughter cry
I apologize a trillion times
[Andre 3000]
Me and your daughter.. gots this special thang goin' on
You say it's puppy love (arf arf arf)
We say it's full grown (WOOF!)
Hope that we feel this.. feel this way forever
You can plan a pretty picnic but you can't predict the weather
Ms. Jackson, ten times out of nine, now if I'm lyin', fine
The quickest muzzle throw it on my mouth and I'll decline
King meets queen,
then the puppy love thing,
together dream
'bout that crib with the Goodyear swing
on the oak tree, I hope we feel like this forever
Forever, for-ever ever, for-EVER ever???
Forever never seems that long until you're grown
And notice that the day by day ruler can't be too wrong
Ms. Jackson my intentions were good I wish I could
become a magician to abacadabra all the sadder
thoughts of me, thoughts of she, thoughts of he
Askin what happened to the feelin that her and me
Had, I pray so much about it need some knee pads
It happened for a reason, one can't be, mad
So know this, know that everything is cool
And yes I will be present on the first day of school,
and graduation
CHORUS:
I'm sorry Ms. Jackson [OOOH]
I am for real
Never meant to make your daughter cry
I apologize a trillion times
[Big Boi]
Uh, uh, yeah
"Look at the way he treats me"
Shit, look at the way you treat me
You see your little nosy-ass homegirls done got your ass sent up the
creek G
Without a paddle, you left to straddle
and ride this thing on out
Now you and your girl ain't speakin no more cause my dick all in her
mouth
Knahm'talkinbout? Jealousy, infidelity, envy
Cheating to beating, envy and to the G they be the same thing
So who you placin the blame on, you keep on singin the same song
Let bygones be bygones, you can go on and get the hell on
You and your mama
CHORUS:
I'm sorry Ms. Jackson [OOOH]
I am for real
Never meant to make your daughter cry
I apologize a trillion times
Kevin
(Who LOVES Guns 'n' Roses, even "One In a Million" with its line
about "immigrants and faggots", because it's the one of the most
disarmingly vivid confessionals of the fear and insecurity that
breeds intolerance I've ever laid ears on)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> >
> > Buckethead's pretty cool -- I think he's got the fastest fingers
> I've ever seen/heard. You know he joined (what's left of) Guns 'n
> Roses (i.e., Axl Rose) two years ago, right?
>
> I like Guns 'n' Roses (ie Axl Rose) a lot. And none of this is OT
as
> far as I'm concerned. Some of the posts have been extremely
> educational for me - I'm going looking for Outkast -- and they
> interface like a madman with film and film criticism.
11088
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:48pm
Subject: Re: Dinner with Harris (was: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report))
As Count Floyd would say "OOoooo real scary boys and
girls!"
http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g012/pierrerissient.html
--- Noel Vera wrote:
> And Pierre Rissient.
>
> Scary looking guy, Rissient. Reminds me of Ernst
> Stavro Blofeld.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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11089
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
> Oh that's all? I was reading too
much into it then... I like my
> version better.
Actually your interpretation is valid.
>
>
>
> The one who really turns me on is
Gina Gershon but she's pretty much
> wasted in the film and not as sexy
by far as she was in "Bound". Of
> course she's almost ten years older
but that's no reason.
>
>
How can Gina Gershon and Connie
Nielsen fighting not turn a guy on?
I never get the complains about the
film being confused. It was pretty
easy to follow (even with its meanings
are not alwys cler), at least if you
have heard some Sonic Youth albums
(and SY score sometimes feel as the
film true script) or have seen
Ferrara's New Rose Hotel (the film
Demonlover ressambles the most,
although nobody bothered to make the
connection).
> Also, what happened with Connie
Nielsen and Charles Berling? Did
> she kill kim, or did he kill
himself? Why?
>
Connie Nielsen kills Berling. Why is
not complete clear as isn't his
function on the plot. Berling plays
what could be described as the Orson
Welles role, but the extent of his
importance on the plot is pretty much
left to the viewer desire (if we
really want to put a face on the top
of the whole scheme Berling is there).
Filipe
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11090
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:51pm
Subject: Cole Porter Invented Hip-Hop!
Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today,
Madam,
Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
She is sorry to be delayed,
But last evening down in lover's lane she strayed,
Madam,
Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
When she woke up and found
That her dream of love was gone,
Madam,
She ran to the man
Who had led her so far astray,
And from under her velvet gown
She drew a gun and shot her lover down,
Madam,
Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
When the mob came and got her
And dragged her from the jail,
Madam,
They strung her upon
The old willow across the way,
And the moment before she died
She lifted up her lovely head and cried,
Madam,
"Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today."
See what I mean, Kevin?
WAY in advance of OUTKAST.
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11091
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:57pm
Subject: sheet, then black people invented Cole Porter!
That's straight up blues song structure, A-A-B-B-A. So the question
is, which oppressed, underserved genius did Porter rip that off
from??? Hmmmmm??????
Big Boy's got 100 times more "flow" (that's hip-hop-ese
for "delivery) than Porter. (though of course, it's not Porter who's
delivering, it's Ella, Billie, etc)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today,
> Madam,
> Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
> She is sorry to be delayed,
> But last evening down in lover's lane she strayed,
> Madam,
> Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
> When she woke up and found
> That her dream of love was gone,
> Madam,
> She ran to the man
> Who had led her so far astray,
> And from under her velvet gown
> She drew a gun and shot her lover down,
> Madam,
> Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today.
> When the mob came and got her
> And dragged her from the jail,
> Madam,
> They strung her upon
> The old willow across the way,
> And the moment before she died
> She lifted up her lovely head and cried,
> Madam,
> "Miss Otis regrets she's unable to lunch today."
>
>
> See what I mean, Kevin?
>
> WAY in advance of OUTKAST.
>
>
>
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11092
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: Some Call It Loving (WAS: Chat report)
> Because no studio will ever allow an
Ellroy protagonist to be as
> unsympathetic in the movie as he was
in the book - cf. LA
> Confidential. Too bad Harris
couldn't get it together to do Ellroy.
Actually Josh Hartnett is playing the
lead, Whalberg plays his partner. It's
a good casting, the books lead isn't
as dislikable as in most Ellroy's
books, he is only very very very dumb.
Filipe
>
>
>
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11093
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Assayas/Radiohead/DeLillo/Freedom of Creativity
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
wrote:
> > Oh that's all? I was reading too
> much into it then... I like my
> > version better.
>
> Actually your interpretation is valid.
>
> > Thanks a lot. Anything goes (as David would say).
> >
> >
> > The one who really turns me on is
> Gina Gershon but she's pretty much
> > wasted in the film and not as sexy
> by far as she was in "Bound". Of
> > course she's almost ten years older
> but that's no reason.
> >
> >
>
>
> How can Gina Gershon and Connie
> Nielsen fighting not turn a guy on?
>
Sorry I never cared much for the two-gals-fighting thing, and the
scene in the Assayas is not sexy at all in my book. To each his/her
own.
>
I never get the complains about the
> film being confused. It was pretty
> easy to follow (even with its meanings
> are not alwys cler), at least if you
> have heard some Sonic Youth albums
> (and SY score sometimes feel as the
> film true script) or have seen
> Ferrara's New Rose Hotel (the film
> Demonlover ressambles the most,
> although nobody bothered to make the
> connection).
>
> So now one has to listen to pop albums in order to understand a
movie? ... I've seen New Rose Hotel and like it but I don't think it
should be necessary to have seen a movie in order to understand
what's going on in another movie.
JPC
11094
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:05am
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question
The thing I didn't realize until much later was that, in a sense,
Robbins deserved to die, for killing another man -- I had originally
thought that the man he killed was molesting the boy much in the way
Robbins was molested, but this is not depicted in a definitive way
(in the book it is made clear that the boy is a prostitute). So
Robbins' act of justice essentially is no different than Penn's, an
act of psychic purging, a need to get back for being wronged, that in
the grand scheme of things is not justified.
But the twist becomes that Penn's killing of Robbins can be seen as
a "just" act of punishment for Robbins' act of homicide.
I used to agree that MYSTIC RIVER bore a striking parallel to the
moral quagmire of Iraq, but at this point how this film relates to
Iraq becomes an issue much more problematic than I'd care to think
about. It's hard enough thinking of Iraq on its own terms without
trying to impose an unrelated film upon it.
I happen to think this is a better film than UNFORGIVEN (a movie that
for me got bogged down in executing every nuance of its revisionist
agenda, such that the world it depicted failed to truly live and
breathe in an organic way -- it's that inimitable organic sense that
I consider RIO BRAVO the best "revisionist" western). It has a
majestic cumulation of events and human frailties adding up like so
many cracks on a layer of thin ice. But the one negative review that
haunts me the most is David Walsh's on World Socialist Website,
particularly the last paragraph.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Joe, what you said about "late fifties/early sixties Preminger"
resonates
> with my own take on "Mystic River." Now, I don't think Eastwood is
as great as
> Preminger, or that the film resembles a Preminger film particularly
until the
> final scene, with those exchange of looks between Bacon and Penn,
and (just as
> importantly, perhaps) Harden and Linney. Besides being, from my
perspective,
> bravura filmmaking which communicates volumes without a line of
dialogue
> (except for Harden calling out her son's name in the parade), this
scene
> encapsulates the cycle of revenge, as it were, which runs through
the whole film. I
> think we're meant to take from Bacon's gesture towards Penn that
he'll be coming
> after him someday, just as Penn went after Robbins (and was fatally
wrong.) I
> found it to be a staggering scene (and a heartbreaking scene
because it
> suggests there's no end to the revenge), and the one which
makes "Mystic River" for
> me one of Eastwood's greatest films.
>
> Peter
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11095
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:07am
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>The ending is designed to be disturbing: I
> imagine Lauara Bush had great sex with Chimpy after he invaded
>Iraq, but that was the wrong country, as SPOILER COMING Robbins is
>the wrong man = a parallel that occurred to both Jonathan Rosenbaum
>and Andy Klein out here ihn LA.
So Laura Linney's speech, then, is meant to be disturbing since she's
now turned on by her vengeful, violent husband? I truly need to give
that sequence another look since the only disturbing emotion I felt
at the time was that it seemed to be an attempt on the part of the
film to restore Penn as the (problematic, I know) hero of the film
after the murder of Robbins and to do so at the expense of the
coherence of Linney's character. Having said that, though, I found
Linney's character so undeveloped that I suppose she's capable of
anything in terms of the needs of the film. (I also hated her
repudiation of Marcia Gay Harden's character in this scene as she
sides with her husband but I suppose this is part of the disturbing
element of the film?)
And the Bush parallel is what? That Penn equals Bush and that
Robbins equals Iraq? Boy, I didn't get any of that. Back to the
video store for me.
My Preminger reference, to be clear about this, has nothing to do
with the style of the film but only with our reading of the
motivations of the characters, particularly as this film and some of
Preminger's reach towards their concluding moments. The style of
MYSTIC RIVER, while it has certain similarities to other "dark"
Eastwoods, reminded me much more of James Gray's two films, THE YARDS
and LITTLE ODESSA, both of which also have some interesting thematic
relations with MYSTIC RIVER.
11096
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:09am
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question and Besson
> My first response,
> though, is that it is a grandiose muddle, filled
> with self-conscious
> echoes of Shakespearean tragedy which it is not
> able to follow
> through on.
I tend to agree. Plus, if I were the investigating
police officer and I found this to be the final
solution, I'd be as suspicious as hell that I've just
been handed a snow job.
On Besson--he's got some style, unlike Emmerich,
Columbus, et.al. But he employs that style to not much
purpose. His Joan of Arc movie pretty much proved that
for me.
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11097
From: Brandon
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:10am
Subject: hipsters / film-related music
> All recommendations are more than welcome.
I missed some messages and lost track of this thread. Regardless, I'm gonna
use it as an excuse to make some CDs. I've made myself a compilation of my
favorite film-referencing indie-rock songs. So if anyone wants to catch up
on some semi-obscure music while catching references to Lynch, Greenaway
and Godard, give me a mailing address and I'll send a copy your way. Sorry,
no Outkast on there.
As for the original post about hipsters with nice record collections who
watch crappy movies... I know a few of them. But it takes a ton of time
and money to stay on top of the best obscure music AND the best obscure
movies, so I try to cut 'em some slack and forgive the Pirates and the
Pitch Black.
11098
From: filipefurtado
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Mystic River Question
The film is complicated because it
make us identify with the character
that is closer to be the bad guy for
its first half.
The way people morally reacts to each
action is thhkey to Eastwood films and
he is disgusted by Linney's in the
scene, but thanks to film structure a
lot of peope take her pardon Penn as
an excuse to put their own desire to
pardon him into action. In the book
there's a flashback in the middle of
the scene to when they were still
dating and she asks him if it's true
that he retired from his criminal life
and then comes back to Penn finally
getting that she always wanted him to
be a criminal. Cutting this out made
the scene more ambiguous which is fine
with me. Most of the cuts from the
book (and Helgeland script is very
faithful) made it more ambiguos. The
only cuts that I believe were
unfortunate were the subplot about the
child molester Robbins kill, which
made Robbins killing of that man
pretty irrelevant.
Also answering the first question
Bacon can't arrest Penn, because
there's not even a body so officialy
there isn't a crime. The mise en scene
in the last scene suggests that Penn
is going back to his criminal life, so
I take Bacon last gesture as sugesting
that he will try to get Penn for
something.
Filipe
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11099
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:15am
Subject: Re: sheet, then black people invented Cole Porter!
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
> That's straight up blues song structure, A-A-B-B-A.
> >
> Well, I wouldn't call "Miss Otis Regrets" a blues by any stretch
of the imagination, but then I must be a purist.
11100
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Jun 16, 2004 0:21am
Subject: Re: Mystic River Question
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
> The thing I didn't realize until much later was that, in a sense,
> Robbins deserved to die, for killing another man -- I had
originally
> thought that the man he killed was molesting the boy much in the
way
> Robbins was molested, but this is not depicted in a definitive way
> (in the book it is made clear that the boy is a prostitute). So
> Robbins' act of justice essentially is no different than Penn's, an
> act of psychic purging, a need to get back for being wronged, that
in
> the grand scheme of things is not justified.
>
> But the twist becomes that Penn's killing of Robbins can be seen as
> a "just" act of punishment for Robbins' act of homicide.
Sorry for two back-to-back posts from me but Kevin's popped up as I
was writing the last one.
That sequence of Robbins coming across the older man with the younger
one in the car was interesting since I was uncertain as to how I was
supposed to read it. Robbins's narration cues us to be horrified, to
share in his own revulsion. But the images, which are perhaps too
brief, don't suggest that the boy is there under duress. The boy
didn't suggest a prostitute to me but simply a young guy about to
engage in a sexual relation with an older man in a car. Is Robbins
meant to be projecting his own anxieties on a situation which he mis-
reads due to his own history? The boy certainly doesn't act like
he's being rescued.
I don't think that Penn's act of murder is just on any level and
there is still something unequal about the violence here. Robbins
kills but I don't think it's equivalent to what Penn does since Penn
is a more fully conscious and alive character while Robbins is
already meant to be the walking dead but also someone who acts in
relation to his unconscious, to the trauma of his molestation in
childhood. Penn kills like a character out of tragedy, Robbins like
a character out of melodrama.
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