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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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11301
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:54pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
LANG's Die Nibelungen: Siegfried may be one of the
first cinematic examples of a man who dies for love.
11302
From: programming
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
On 6/21/04 4:07 PM, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>>
>>
>> Offhand, I can't think of a song that has a rhyme for Kierkegaard,
Many wasted years on drink and card
Better spent cuddled up with Kierkegaard
pf
11303
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:25pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
> Caused me to think of films in which a
> 'man dies for love.' A TALE of TWO CITIES comes
> to mind.
>
> Others?
The one that leaps to mind is THE RECKLESS MOMENT. - Dan
11304
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:41pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Caused me to think of films in which a
> > 'man dies for love.' A TALE of TWO CITIES comes
> > to mind.
> >
> > Others?
>
> The one that leaps to mind is THE RECKLESS MOMENT. - Dan
TAKI NO SHIRAITO/WHIT THREADS OF THE WATERFALL (Mizoguchi, 1933.)
Richard
11305
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Caused me to think of films in which a
> > 'man dies for love.' A TALE of TWO CITIES comes
> > to mind.
> >
> > Others?
>
> The one that leaps to mind is THE RECKLESS MOMENT. -
> Dan
>
>
And its marvelous remake THE DEEP END.
Don't forget TITANIC ( an enormously successful but
deeply unfashionable film that I rather like.)
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11306
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:52pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Lieberman"
wrote:
> "Last Tango in Paris"
The girl shoots him, right? Does that count as dying for love?
"Some sigh and cry for love,
Oh but in Paree they die for love..."
>
>
11307
From: George Robinson
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:54pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
As Shakespeare so aptly observed in As You Like It,
Men have died and worms have eaten them,
But not for love.
George (I'm dying for a cold drink, but not for love) Robinson
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
11308
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:58pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Don't forget TITANIC ( an enormously successful but
> deeply unfashionable film that I rather like.)
Yes but still, David, "Most gentlemen don't like love, they
just like to kick it around."
11309
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:05pm
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> LANG's Die Nibelungen: Siegfried may be one of the
> first cinematic examples of a man who dies for love.
You might say Lon Chaney dies for love in Browning's "The
Unknown" (1927) -- after losing his two arms for love...
11310
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: no man dies for love
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Yes but still, David, "Most gentlemen don't
> like love, they
> just like to kick it around."
>
>
Quite true, J-P. And that's why Gore Vidal and Harold
Lang (who starred in the Ben Bagley revue of Cole
Porter songs where that number was featured, as well
as originating the role of Bill in "Kiss me Kate")
never managed to get together on a more permanent
basis, despite a passionate affair in the late 1940's.
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11311
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:41am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming
wrote:
,
>
>
> Many wasted years on drink and card
> Better spent cuddled up with Kierkegaard
>
>
> pf
WOW! Where's that from?
Of course "My nights were sour/Spent with Kierkegard" doesn't rhyme
at all...
11312
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:39am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> FABULOUS!
>
> Have you seen it Damien? I'm longing to.
>
> >
> > The original lyric has finally made it to celluloid.
> > It's heard in
> > Bill Condon's upcoming "Kinsey."
> >
David, I've seen a very rough cut of Kinsey, and then a rough cut,
but haven't seen the final cut, yet. But what I've seen is wonderful
(plus I'm an extra in a 1940s gay bar scene).
11313
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:36am
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
I can hardly wait! Any sense of when Bill will have it
ready?
--- Damien Bona wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> > FABULOUS!
> >
> > Have you seen it Damien? I'm longing to.
> >
> > >
> > > The original lyric has finally made it to
> celluloid.
> > > It's heard in
> > > Bill Condon's upcoming "Kinsey."
> > >
>
> David, I've seen a very rough cut of Kinsey, and
> then a rough cut,
> but haven't seen the final cut, yet. But what I've
> seen is wonderful
> (plus I'm an extra in a 1940s gay bar scene).
>
>
>
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11314
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:12am
Subject: Re: no man dies for love
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan" wrote:
> ... our hero cannot be lost until his tale is to told ...
> for heaven be thanked, we live in such an age where
> no man dies for love, except upon a stage.
>
> Comes from the narration in TOM JONES when Tom
> is defending the 'virtue' of his Sophie.
>
> Caused me to think of films in which a
> 'man dies for love.' A TALE of TWO CITIES comes
> to mind.
>
> Others?
Luke Perry in NORMAL LIFE, Charles Laughton (maybe) in THIS LAND IS
MINE...Charles Boyer in LILIOM?
I'm not very good at this stuff.
-Jaime
11315
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:08am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
Are you guys this gone on Ogden Nash?
11316
From:
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:34am
Subject: Re: To drive or not to drive/Tavernier
Richard Modiano wrote:
<< I made my decision not to drive after seeing NIGHT AND FOG in high
school. >>
I do not understand this at all. Please explain. "Night and Fog" is certainly
a masterpiece. But what does it have to do with automobiles?
Mike Grost
11317
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:51pm
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Are you guys this gone on Ogden Nash?
Has he ever mentioned Kierkegaard?
11318
From: Fred Camper
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: To drive or not to drive/Tavernier
I hope to read Richard's reply, but I understood this immediately myself
as an equation between industrial culture in general and the Holocaust.
More specifically, before the construction of gas chambers the Germans
used vehicles with internal combustion engines to gas people.
Of course, cinema is a product of industrial culture too.
Richard, are you saying that you travel around LA almost entirely by
bicycle? If so, congratulations!
- Fred C.
11319
From:
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:43pm
Subject: Re: Night and Fog
Perhaps if any road can lead to a concentration camp, it makes to
travel at slow speeds?
Sam
At 12:46 PM +0000 6/22/04, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 04:34:51 EDT
> From: MG4273@a...
>Subject: Re: To drive or not to drive/Tavernier
>
>Richard Modiano wrote:
>
><< I made my decision not to drive after seeing NIGHT AND FOG in high
> school. >>
>
>I do not understand this at all. Please explain. "Night and Fog" is certainly
>a masterpiece. But what does it have to do with automobiles?
>
>Mike Grost
11320
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:41pm
Subject: Re: To drive or not to drive/Tavernier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Richard Modiano wrote:
>
> << I made my decision not to drive after seeing NIGHT AND FOG in
high
> school. >>
>
> I do not understand this at all. Please explain. "Night and Fog" is
certainly
> a masterpiece. But what does it have to do with automobiles?
>
> Mike Grost
It was autumn 1967. I was 16 years old, and at age 16 one can apply
for a learner's permit to drive in the state of California. I went
from seeing NIGHT AND FOG in a high school class to a class on
driver's education. My mind was still preoccupied with images from
the film; I made connections between NIGHT AND FOG and US atrocities
being committed in Viet Nam. The previous summer the tv news carried
stories on "accidental" bombings of civilian targets and scenes of
Buddhist monks and nuns immolating themselves to protest the war. My
thinking then was that the atrocities of the Holocaust and of the the
Viet Nam war were (in part)manifestations of the capitalist-
industrial juggernaut. I wasn't willing to sacrifice my life but I
was willing to give up on driving. So seeing NIGHT AND FOG gave me
the resolve to drop the driver's ed class, my form of concientious
objection. I hope that answers your question, Mike.
Once I decided not to drive I adapted myself to circumstances by
getting around by bus or bicycle. I haven't always lived in Los
Angeles, and it's easier to get around by bike and public
transportation in Honolulu, NYC, Barcelona and Kyoto (all cities
where I've lived,) but I still get around by bicycle in Los Angeles.
In recent years the city has created more bike lanes and some
employers have offered perks to employees who commute by bicycle, so
the sacrifice has become much less onerous (in fact I don't
experience as a sacrifice at all today.)
Richard
11321
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:31pm
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> > Are you guys this gone on Ogden Nash?
Ogden Nash lost me before he ever had a chance. When I was 14 or 15,
he ammended "Candy is dandy/ But liquor is quicker," by adding "But
pot is not."
My teenage self just figured he was a stupid old reactionary fool.
11322
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:45pm
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> I can hardly wait! Any sense of when Bill will have it
> ready?
>
The Kinsey final cut is done, David. There was a screening here in
New York for cast, crew and friends a few weeks ago (unfortunately I
couldn't make it), but I don't know when press screenings will
begin. It's slated for a November release.
11323
From: programming
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
On 6/21/04 8:41 PM, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming
> wrote:
> ,
>>
>>
>> Many wasted years on drink and card
>> Better spent cuddled up with Kierkegaard
>>
>>
>> pf
>
> WOW! Where's that from?
Sorry, JP, not some long lost Porter song. I made it up - couldn't resist.
Best,
Patrick F.
11324
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:04pm
Subject: strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg
Just before seen VIBRATOR yesterday as a part of NYC's Asian Film
Festival, I mentioned to a friend that I'd recently re-watched (and
been re-blown away by) RIO BRAVO. Afterwards I had a quiet meal at
a nearby Italian restaurant, where Dean Martin crooned
"While the river Rio Bravo flows along..."
Earlier this morning I reflected on the relationship between the
fragmented Iraqi resistance and my country's anti-British resistance
of the late 18th century, prior to and during the American
Revolution, and wondered whether the patriots committed heinous acts
similar to the beheading of the South Korean translator (only the
most recent). In searching for a good, thorough account of the
Revolution it occurred to me that perhaps the term, "terrorism," is
a very recent one, perhaps developed by powerful western governments
to define amorphous, "rogue" states and groups without military
conventions or accepted (so to speak) rules of warfare.
Later on, about a half hour ago, in fact, I learned that Steven
Spielberg is planning to direct one or more stories of Hergé's
TINTIN, about whom I've only just learned a very tiny amount,
sometime next year. During the course of looking up information on
Hergé and TINTIN, the first stop was the official website,
operated
by the Hergé Foundation, and in a section that talks about
Tintin's
political engagement we get an explanation of terrorism, the history
of the word, major figures, and major contemporary groups in the
world!
How's that for a coincidence! And whatever will Spielberg do with
what appears to be a plethora of ethnic stereotypes?
-Jaime
11325
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:21pm
Subject: Re: strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg
> Afterwards I had a quiet meal at
> a nearby Italian restaurant, where Dean Martin crooned
>
> "While the river Rio Bravo flows along..."
Wow, I had no idea that that song was out there in the world. If it's
like the fragment at the end of the movie, the lyric should be "while
the rollin' Rio Bravo rolls along," right?
> and wondered whether the patriots committed heinous acts
> similar to the beheading of the South Korean translator
My impression is that our Revolution had a roughneck, thuggish aspect to
it, with a lot of violence and intimidation directed at pro-Brit
colonists. - Dan
11326
From: Travis Miles
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:29pm
Subject: Re: strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg
In searching for a good, thorough account of the
> Revolution it occurred to me that perhaps the term, "terrorism," is
> a very recent one, perhaps developed by powerful western governments
> to define amorphous, "rogue" states and groups without military
> conventions or accepted (so to speak) rules of warfare.
>
Robert Fisk has written copiously and searchingly on the use of the word
"terrorism" in print journalism. A few long passages on the subject can be
found in his harrowing PITY THE NATION: LEBANON AT WAR. His conclusions are
distressing, to say the least. That the term has been used to justify the
(sometimes mass) killing of innocents in most conflicts since the 60s is the
most apparent.
By the way, I was quite moved by VIBRATOR, despite the occasional surfacing
of a quality I can only describe as 'cutesy.' Perhaps most touching was the
punk girl next to me who incessantly giggled for most of the film only to
break into wracking sobs during the emotional climax. I know Michael
Atkinson liked it, but has there been much other critical support?
11327
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Weekend pig
> "I'd always heard LE SANG DES BETES referred to as anti-carnivore,
> but I was quite surprised watching it recently (April) to find that
> for me it played as nothing of the sort. Of course a slaughterhouse
> is not a pleasant place to spend time, even virtually, but to me the
> film is much more about acknowledging the death/bloodshed that is
> fundamentally a part of life than condemning it. (i.e. the opening
> narration which sets up the abbatoir's proximity to the peaceful
> streets of Paris.) Franju finds a certain beauty/truth in the
> juxtaposition."
>
> That's your pure vision, but for years the movie was shown by
> vegetarian groups as an arguement for vegetarianism, and that's the
> context in which I first saw in 1968.
I think there have always been people who took this film as a protest
and people who didn't. Ian Cameron wrote in MOVIE that "Franju is one
of the least vegetarian directors one can imagine." Not sure exactly
what he means by that.
> If you sacrifice yourself for art or otherwise undergo extreme pain
> for art (like Chris Burden who had himself shot with a 22. rifle and
> on another occasion had himself crucified to the hood of a Volkswagen)
> that's the choice of the artist for him or herself. Killing an
> unwilling victim is another matter.
And if celluloid in fact contains animal products, then every movie
kills unwilling victims.
> In experiments done by Dr.Stanley Milligrom (of the famous obedience
> to authority experiments)he found that people were more disturbed by
> films of animals being mistreated than of humans being simililarly
> mistreated. There were two reasons according to his findings: 1.
> The animals were innocent of any wrong doing and didn't merit
> mistreatment, whereas the humans probably did something to deserve
> their suffering. 2. The humans were probably not really being
> mistreated whereas the animals were.
I've been doing an informal survey on this subject all my life, and
Milgram came up with the same answers that I always get.... I think #2
is mostly a cover and not a real reason: note, for instance, that no one
thinks that children are actually killed for movies, and yet people have
the same violent reaction to the deaths of on-screen children as to animals.
So, whether #1 is *the* reason or merely *a* reason, it has sobering
implications. "The humans probably did something to merit their
suffering." Of course, you can create identification for a human being
in a fiction, and make the audience sorry to see him or her mistreated.
But children and animals are identification magnets, and the fiction
maker need do no work on their behalf.
Hard for me to avoid the conclusion that we view unknown human beings as
a potential threat, and their deaths as a measure of safety for
ourselves. - Dan
11328
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:54pm
Subject: terrorism/VIBRATOR/"Rio Bravo"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Travis Miles
> Robert Fisk has written copiously and searchingly on the use of
the word
> "terrorism" in print journalism. A few long passages on the
subject can be
> found in his harrowing PITY THE NATION: LEBANON AT WAR. His
conclusions are
> distressing, to say the least. That the term has been used to
justify the
> (sometimes mass) killing of innocents in most conflicts since the
60s is the
> most apparent.
Ah, thanks! I'll put that on the to-read list.
>
> By the way, I was quite moved by VIBRATOR, despite the occasional
surfacing
> of a quality I can only describe as 'cutesy.' Perhaps most
touching was the
> punk girl next to me who incessantly giggled for most of the film
only to
> break into wracking sobs during the emotional climax. I know
Michael
> Atkinson liked it, but has there been much other critical support?
Dan Sallitt (previous message to yours) thought it was very great,
and several friends have rallied around it. I don't think I like it
as much as they do, although any movie where the post-screening
sidewalk conversation brings up Claire Denis, Frank Borzage, and
Catherine Breillat, can't be wholly without interest.
The actor playing Takatoshi (Nao Omori) is best-known for playing
Ichi the Killer in Takashi Miike's ultra-violent film of the same
name. His father is Akaji Maro, described without explanation
(anyone) as "Japanese acting legend Akaji Maro." Most recently he
played one of the crime bosses in KILL BILL, VOL. 1.
To Dan: Yes, I think the "Rio Bravo" song must be on most of the
CDs and albums played at Italian restaurants in the Big Apple. It
might be "rollin'," although a lyrics sheet I glanced at before
writing my earlier post infected my memory of listening to it in the
restaurant. (Nice place, too, across from Anthology and two blocks
up.)
-Jaime
11329
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Weekend pig
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
"And if celluloid in fact contains animal products, then every movie
kills unwilling victims."
True. But one cannot be too humble about this issue. Guilt and self-
blame don't clarify the matter either. If possible, one should take
a larger view that acknowledges the pain and beauty of living in a
world where evry living thing impinges on every other living thing.
I wouldn't try to justify taking life, but rather say that this is my
decision and I accept what ever results may entail. One thing that
the science of ecology has taught me is modesty in regard to human
specialness.
As for myself, I try to commit no unnecessary harm, and I beleive
that each person must find their own way to put that into practice,
understanding that there will be no complete purity and not indulging
in self-righteousness.
"Hard for me to avoid the conclusion that we view unknown human
beings as a potential threat, and their deaths as a measure of safety
for ourselves."
In Asian philosiphy it's one of the three poisons: ignorance, greed
and aggression. You ignore people who are of no use to you, try to
magnetize people you can use and want to destroy people who pose a
threat to you. The antidote is compassion.
Richard
11330
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
>>
> >> Many wasted years on drink and card
> >> Better spent cuddled up with Kierkegaard
> >>
> >>
> >> pf
> >
> > WOW! Where's that from?
>
> Sorry, JP, not some long lost Porter song. I made it up - couldn't
resist.
>
> Best,
>
> Patrick F.
Patrick, your contribution should be held in high r-egaard.
JPC
11331
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
Well I'll keep my eye peeled for an L.A. preview
screening.
--- Damien Bona wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> > I can hardly wait! Any sense of when Bill will
> have it
> > ready?
> >
> The Kinsey final cut is done, David. There was a
> screening here in
> New York for cast, crew and friends a few weeks ago
> (unfortunately I
> couldn't make it), but I don't know when press
> screenings will
> begin. It's slated for a November release.
>
>
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11332
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:35pm
Subject: Tintin (was Strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
Tintin has long been a deeply embedded part of European popular
culture. He's not merely a comic strip character, he's a multi-
national phenomenon, this year celebrating his 75th anniversary.
(The American equivalent might be Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse or
Charlie Brown, although Tintin strikes me as singular in a way these
three aren't quite, and they haven't had the same type of impact.)
He remains oddly under-known in the States. I came to love him when
a local New York television station began runing Tintin cartoons
every morning in 1965/66. (My entire 5th grade class was hooked.) So
much so that every time I go to France I pick up at least one new
piece of Tintin (and Snowy -- né Milou -- and Captain Haddock)
mememorabillia (I have t-shirts, a key chain. a baseball cap,
statuary). There are new cartoons that run on HBO, but they strike
me as fairly insipid.
Because Tintin has such a western European sensibility (author Hergé
was Belgian) and is so much a part of one's growing up European, it
seems to me that Spielberg is a completely wrong choice for a Tintin
movie.
Interestingly, Hergé -- an unabashed colonialist -- has been accused
of having been racist and anti-Semitic, and he even collaborated with
the Germans -- wonder if Steven knows.
And as further proof of how ingrained Tintin is the collective
psyche: a few years ago, the French National Assembly debated the
question: "Tintin: Is he from the left or from the right?" Both the
Socialists and Chirac's right-of-center Rally for the Republic party
claimed the plucky lad as their own.
Assembly member Dominique Bussereau, who sponsored the debate, said,
"Tintin is always a generous person, always ready to help the poor,
the orphans, people in difficulty. He's very kind. You have to
distinguish between Hergé, who was a great artist but whose views
wavered throughout his life, and Tintin, who always trod a straight
path - friends with children, the weak and the oppressed."
I'm sure any of the European members of the board can elucidate and
elaborate a great deal more.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> Later on, about a half hour ago, in fact, I learned that Steven
> Spielberg is planning to direct one or more stories of Hergé's
> TINTIN, about whom I've only just learned a very tiny amount,
> sometime next year. During the course of looking up information on
> Hergé and TINTIN, the first stop was the official website,
> operated
> by the Hergé Foundation, and in a section that talks about
> Tintin's
> political engagement we get an explanation of terrorism, the
history
> of the word, major figures, and major contemporary groups in the
> world!
>
> How's that for a coincidence! And whatever will Spielberg do with
> what appears to be a plethora of ethnic stereotypes?
11333
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:03pm
Subject: Spielberg (was Tintin) (and still is)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
> Because Tintin has such a western European sensibility (author Hergé
> was Belgian) and is so much a part of one's growing up European, it
> seems to me that Spielberg is a completely wrong choice for a Tintin
> movie.
But Spielberg, looking into his films at his protagonists and their
worldviews, has always struck me as divided between a colonialist (or
to put it kindly, fatherly), crass adult and the utopian POV of a
child "innocent," which sounds an awful lot like Dominique Bussereau's
pronouncement of the Hergé/Tintin dichotomy.
I'm much less confident in saying that a filmmaker has this or that
kind of nationalist sensibility. I suppose Tintin, in Spielberg's
hands, may easily carry the "bright young kid on a big adventure" type
of aura that crept into EMPIRE OF THE SUN. In other words, blandly
anonymously-European, slightly Epcot, with Young Indiana Jones lederhosen.
Could you elaborate on why you think Spielberg is the wrong choice?
(It sounds as if the film project was solely the fruit of his
relationship with the Hergé Foundation.)
-Jaime
11334
From: Noel Vera
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Weekend pig
>I'd happily allow the animal to be slaughtered so I
>can eat only
>the tenderest and most tasty parts of it, while the
>rest is thrown
>away (or, these days, turned into meat-pulp and fed
>back to the
>animal that produced it.)
In poorer countries like the Philippines, and even in
poorer states like North Carolina, nothing is thrown
away; pig intestines, pig jowls, even pig ears and
tongues are turned into sausages and beer chow. We
have a dish in Manila made out of chicken soup and
boiled chicken blood.
We do roasted goat, we chop up the innards and make a
stew, flavor it with drops of the goat's bile, and
call it "pinapaitan." Most "pinapaitan" is done from
the lower intestines, but if you raised the goat
yourself and slaughter and cook it yourself, you can
do one out of the upper intestines, which are finer in
texture but riskier as the food is less digested there
(you have to be sure of what the goat has eaten). A
great delicacy, at least for us, and found nowhere
else that I know of.
Culture and its effects are fascinating; culture and
its effects on what constitutes food even more so.
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11335
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
I love his work with Vernon Duke.
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Are you guys this gone on Ogden Nash?
>
>
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11336
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Tintin (was Strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> I'm sure any of the European members of the board can elucidate and
> elaborate a great deal more.
>
>
>
> I read most of the Tintin books when I was a child and looked at
some of them later but I never was a fan (I most enjoyed the comic
characters, irrascible Captain Haddock with his fanciful swearing,
the two detectives Dupond and Dupont with their duplicate statements,
and professor Tournesol...) and as a European I have not much to say
about the subject but I don't agree that Spielberg would necessarily
be wrong for the movie (what would be wrong would be to make the
movie at all, but that's another topic and can of worms). The books
were made in a time when the concept of white supremacy and the
distrust (if not hatred) of "The Other" as we say today were so
widespread as to be almost axiomatic in western culture, and that
attitude is reflected in the Herge stuff and also discernible in
early (or pre-Schindler) Spielberg (notably the Indiana Jones
movies). My gut feeling however is that Spielberg never will make a
Tintin movie.
JPC
11337
From: Nick
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:00am
Subject: Re: Tintin (was Strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
> I'm sure any of the European members of the board can elucidate and
> elaborate a great deal more.
Never, ever, forget HOOK.
I dread to think what flatulent prostheses he develops to imprint his
"own take" on the TINTIN universe.
If someone could create a kind of user-friendly "futures" style
stockmarket system for betting on in-production movies, I'd flutter a
few sovereigns on Linklater's A SCANNER DARKLY being a hit, but bet
heavily against Spielberg's TINTIN.
-Nick Wrigley>-
11338
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:06am
Subject: Re: To drive or not to drive/Tavernier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
"Richard, are you saying that you travel around LA almost entirely by
bicycle? If so, congratulations!"
Yes, and it's not as daunting as riding a bike in Chicago (no snowy
winters.)
Richard
11339
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:13am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> I love his work with Vernon Duke.
>
>
> --- hotlove666 wrote:
> > Are you guys this gone on Ogden Nash?
> >
> >
> There once was a poet named Nash
Whose Rhymes always were cute and brash.
He rhymed Candy with dandy,
Always had a good one handy,
And always did it with panache.
JPC
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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11340
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Tintin (was Strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> > I read most of the Tintin books when I was a
> child and looked at
> some of them later but I never was a fan (I most
> enjoyed the comic
> characters, irrascible Captain Haddock with his
> fanciful swearing,
> the two detectives Dupond and Dupont with their
> duplicate statements,
> and professor Tournesol...) and as a European I
> have not much to say
> about the subject but I don't agree that Spielberg
> would necessarily
> be wrong for the movie (what would be wrong would be
> to make the
> movie at all, but that's another topic and can of
> worms). The books
> were made in a time when the concept of white
> supremacy and the
> distrust (if not hatred) of "The Other" as we say
> today were so
> widespread as to be almost axiomatic in western
> culture, and that
> attitude is reflected in the Herge stuff and also
> discernible in
> early (or pre-Schindler) Spielberg (notably the
> Indiana Jones
> movies). My gut feeling however is that Spielberg
> never will make a
> Tintin movie.
That's my feeling too. And the reason why is the only
actor capable of playing Snowy -- Asta -- has been
dead for over half a century.
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11341
From:
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:25pm
Subject: Politics in Comics (was Tintin)
I've never read Tintin.
But I'd caution against assuming that ALL old comics were right wing or
racist. Lots of US comic books of the 1930's and beyond were fiercely liberal. In
fact, they were often far more outspoken than either prose or film during this
period.
My comics web site has a list of some of the liberal political comic book
stories I've glommed on to over the years:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/polit.htm
And the list does not even go up to the 1970's Age of Relevance in comics.
Alos want to recommend a recent Japanese manga (comic book for grownups)
available in English translation, "Eagle: The Making of an Asian-American
President", by Kaiji Kawaguchi. This describes an imaginary version of the 2000 US
presidential race, in which a Japanese-American senator runs for office. Book One
(of five books total) is the best. It would make a great movie.
Mike Grost
11342
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:39am
Subject: Re: Tintin (was Strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
>
> That's my feeling too. And the reason why is the only
> actor capable of playing Snowy -- Asta -- has been
> dead for over half a century.
>
> You're cute as usual, David, but there might be other reasons. And
Asta, -- God bless his soul -- no matter how wonderful, would have
been wrong for Milou (it's Milou, not Snowy, and here we are already
americanizing the whole thing!).
>
>
> __________________________________
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11343
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:43am
Subject: Adorno/Kluge
Joe, that was fascinating info about the Adorno/Kluge 'falling out'. Where
does it come from? At some point in the 60s - not sure whether that's before
or after the incident you mention - Adorno did plan to do an updated edition
of MUSIC FOR FILMS with a contribution on the modern period by Kluge. More
investigation to follow!
Adrian
11344
From:
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:24pm
Subject: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
Sorry for smashing all the subjects together. But my email was bouncing yet
again (grrr) this entire weekend and I want to play catchup right away.
Adrian, thanx for schooling me re: Adorno and film. I don't even know why I
wrote that since I've read much of the material you mentioned. I'll try to
leave the blanket statements to, er, someone else from now on.
Montreal has the best public transportation system I've ever encountered,
particularly re: the frequency of buses. Much better than Milwaukee (record wait:
50 minutes and, yes, in the cold) and, so I hear, Austin, my next
destination.
Near as I can tell from a quick perusal of the archives, no one has mentioned
De-Lovely in the Porter threads. I'm VERY nervous about this film. I hear
there's nary of mention of his homosexuality. Ok, I can accept the hatchet job
that is Night and Day given its 1946 DOB (although that doesn't make it any
easier to sit through). But I'm dying to see what sorts of disgusting contortions
the creators will put themselves through to justify their elisions in so much
more enlightened 2004. Am I jumping the gun here, though? Has anyone here seen
it yet?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11345
From:
Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:34pm
Subject: Maya Darpan/The Mirror of Illusion (1972)
Has anyone seen Maya Darpan/The Mirror of Illusion (1972)? I was reading
Bordwell and Thompson's Film History where I came across this nugget about it:
"Bresson called it the most slowly paced film he had ever seen." Coming from
Bresson, that makes the film sound pretty rough indeed. Is Bresson right? Does
anyone know the source of Bresson's statement? And has Maya Darpan ever been
released on VHS/DVD?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11346
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:04am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> Near as I can tell from a quick perusal of the
> archives, no one has mentioned
> De-Lovely in the Porter threads. I'm VERY nervous
> about this film. I hear
> there's nary of mention of his homosexuality. Ok, I
> can accept the hatchet job
> that is Night and Day given its 1946 DOB (although
> that doesn't make it any
> easier to sit through). But I'm dying to see what
> sorts of disgusting contortions
> the creators will put themselves through to justify
> their elisions in so much
> more enlightened 2004. Am I jumping the gun here,
> though? Has anyone here seen
> it yet?
>
I'm seeing it next week. According to John Powers
"de-less said about it de-better." It does deal with
his homosexuality. Sort of. He loves Linda (Ashley
Judd woefully miscast as Linda was twice her age.
Ellen Burstyn would have been better) but he can't
keep his hands off Les Boys.
QUEL TRAGEDIE!
But we'll always have Broadway
"It's the wrong time,
It's the wrong place,
Though your face is charming it's the wrong face.
It's not his face,
But such a charming face
That it's alright with me. . ."
Sorry, but no heterosexual could concieve of those
lyrics.
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11347
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:11am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Sorry for smashing all the subjects together. But my email was bouncing yet
> again (grrr) this entire weekend and I want to play catchup right away.
>
> Adrian, thanx for schooling me re: Adorno and film. I don't even know why I
> wrote that since I've read much of the material you mentioned. I'll try to
> leave the blanket statements to, er, someone else from now on.
>
> Montreal has the best public transportation system I've ever encountered,
> particularly re: the frequency of buses. Much better than Milwaukee (record wait:
> 50 minutes and, yes, in the cold) and, so I hear, Austin, my next
> destination.
>
> Near as I can tell from a quick perusal of the archives, no one has mentioned
> De-Lovely in the Porter threads. I'm VERY nervous about this film. I hear
> there's nary of mention of his homosexuality.
>
> Kevin John
If only they would let Ken Russell direct it, he wouldn't shy away. If
memory serves me right he was interested in making a film on Porter.
(And if only Russell got the funding for his Beethoven film I may have
been spared "Immortal Beloved", a Hallmark postcard illustration of
history and music.)
11348
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:24am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
On driving: I haven't been behind the wheel since I was 16, (20 years
ago) and have lived SF for ten years, so I have no real problems
getting around now. When I studied at SUNY Purchase I used to take the
Metro North into the city to see films. I was in Central Florida for
two years and if you don't have a car, you do not exist. Sidewalks
come to abrupt end. Buses that run only once an hour and stop at 6pm -
- this is in Tampa also. I wrote a script about young people in
Florida and a good deal of it deals with the main character having to
live his life around little to no transportation. In SF all groups of
people take the bus, in Florida you either can't afford a car or have
had your license revoked.
BTW: sorry about editing most of the post I responding to in my last
reply
11349
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:33am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> QUEL TRAGEDIE!
>
> But we'll always have Broadway
>
> "It's the wrong time,
>
> It's the wrong place,
>
> Though your face is charming it's the wrong face.
>
> It's not his face,
>
> But such a charming face
>
> That it's alright with me. . ."
>
> Sorry, but no heterosexual could concieve of those
> lyrics.
>
Oh really? Have you ever beeen one?
It's "quelle tragedie!" David.
"But 'stead of falling into Berlitz French
Just warble to me please
This beautiful strain in plain Brooklynese."
>
> JPC
> __________________________________
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11350
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:47am
Subject: Re: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> Oh really? Have you ever beeen one?
I've been IN quite a few.
At least that's what they SAID they were.
>
> It's "quelle tragedie!" David.
>
My Bad!
(Right now I'm listening to Dawn Upshaw sing "April in Paris"!)
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11351
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:55am
Subject: user-fiendly stock market ... in production movies HSX
There is a 'play money' movie stock market site on the web
http://www.hsx.com/
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick wrote:
> If someone could create a kind of user-friendly "futures" style
> stockmarket system for betting on in-production movies, I'd flutter a
> few sovereigns on Linklater's A SCANNER DARKLY being a hit, but bet
> heavily against Spielberg's TINTIN.
>
> -Nick Wrigley>-
11352
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:57am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
>
> Sorry, but no heterosexual could concieve of those
> lyrics.
David,
As a fellow gay male, do you think it is really necessary to make
statements like this on the board? I questioned you about this in the
past and you told me to "lighten up." But I'll bet you if someone made
a crack/taunt about homosexuals -- and David, there is a lot of bad gay
art -- you'd be in a tizzy. I really appreciate reading the
contributions made by members on this group, and I may get kicked off
the board for saying this but, your insistence on claiming rights to
film-- or any other subversive art form-- based on your homosexuality
and putting it above everyone else is hostile and offensive. It's a
shame because you obviously know your stuff. I've always wanted to tell
you how much I liked your essay on Coppola's "Dracula" for Film
Comment, but what little jab would you reply with?
BTW: Tom Gunning was talking about Eisenstein's homosexuality WAY
BEFORE the Film Comment article.
Michael
11353
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:09am
Subject: Re: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
>
> David,
>
> As a fellow gay male, do you think it is really
> necessary to make
> statements like this on the board?
Sure.
I questioned you
> about this in the
> past and you told me to "lighten up."
And I'll repeat the suggestion.
But I'll bet
> you if someone made
> a crack/taunt about homosexuals -- and David, there
> is a lot of bad gay
> art -- you'd be in a tizzy.
Not at all. I'm on a TON of boards and deal with
people you don't want to know the existence of.
I really appreciate
> reading the
> contributions made by members on this group, and I
> may get kicked off
> the board for saying this but, your insistence on
> claiming rights to
> film-- or any other subversive art form-- based on
> your homosexuality
> and putting it above everyone else is hostile and
> offensive.
Oh pish-tush!
It's a
> shame because you obviously know your stuff.
And so does Jean-Pierre ( a certified heteorsexual,
last time I looked)
I've
> always wanted to tell
> you how much I liked your essay on Coppola's
> "Dracula" for Film
> Comment, but what little jab would you reply with?
I'd say "Thank you very much," and "Isn't it a shame
that Sadie Frost gave up acting for that slut Jude
Law?"
>
> BTW: Tom Gunning was talking about Eisenstein's
> homosexuality WAY
> BEFORE the Film Comment article.
>
>
Really? Where? I'd love to read it. I'm an admirer of
Gunning's work.
>
>
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11354
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:18am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> And so does Jean-Pierre ( a certified heteorsexual,
> last time I looked)
Who does not let his sexual orientation get in in the way of his
extraordinary writing on film.
>
> I've
> > always wanted to tell
> > you how much I liked your essay on Coppola's
> > "Dracula" for Film
> > Comment, but what little jab would you reply with?
>
> I'd say "Thank you very much," and "Isn't it a shame
> that Sadie Frost gave up acting for that slut Jude
> Law?"
I do not care about the gossip, As Joel Schumacher says --he's gay
David, is he a great talent??-- "the shit du jour".
> >
> > BTW: Tom Gunning was talking about Eisenstein's
> > homosexuality WAY
> > BEFORE the Film Comment article.
> >
> >
> Really? Where? I'd love to read it. I'm an admirer of
> Gunning's work.
In classes I have taken with Tom since 1987. If you want an ealier
date, I'll call him and ask him.
11355
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:35am
Subject: Re: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
>
> Who does not let his sexual orientation get in in
> the way of his
> extraordinary writing on film.
All I'm trying to do in my own small way is make up
for a few thousand years of COMPULSORY
HETEROSEXUALITY, an ideological imperative that
apparently still holds you in its thrall.
(Is that the smart remark you were baiting for?)
J-P and I love to toss Cole Porter lyrics back and
forth to each other. I trust the list doens't find
this too annoying.
>
> I do not care about the gossip, As Joel Schumacher
> says --he's gay
> David, is he a great talent??-- "the shit du jour".
I wouldn't go around quoting that speed-freak
window-dresser if I were you. Is there a worse
commercial filmmaker? I really can't think of anyone
offhand.
>
> In classes I have taken with Tom since 1987. If
> you want an ealier
> date, I'll call him and ask him.
>
Oh, because I was hoping that if it was published
somewhere I'd love to see it.
Eisenstein used to be the bread and butter of film
studies. Just yesterday I saw Hitchens refer to him
and Leni Riefenstahl in the same sentence. Snarky and
from a political perspective semi-accurate.
I've always wondered why Stalin let him get as far
with "Ivan the Terrible" as he did -- an incredibly
expensive piece of insanity made at the height of the war.
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11356
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:52am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> All I'm trying to do in my own small way is make up
> for a few thousand years of COMPULSORY
> HETEROSEXUALITY, an ideological imperative that
> apparently still holds you in its thrall.
Apparently is a key word here, for it doesn't. I think you are
preaching to the choir and your remarks undermind your insights. But
I
guess it's just that "internalized" homophobia in me because I refuse
to wave the rainbow flag all the time.
> >
> > I do not care about the gossip, As Joel Schumacher
> > says --he's gay
> > David, is he a great talent??-- "the shit du jour".
>
>
> I wouldn't go around quoting that speed-freak
> window-dresser if I were you. Is there a worse
> commercial filmmaker? I really can't think of anyone
> offhand.
I cannot believe you missed the irony of me quoting Schumacher, since
you are the one with the special quick wit becuase of your
orienation.
BTW, I can list a lot of bad gay filmmakers.
> >
> > In classes I have taken with Tom since 1987. If
> > you want an ealier
> > date, I'll call him and ask him.
> >
> Oh, because I was hoping that if it was published
> somewhere I'd love to see it.
What irritated me with you on this was that you insisted that there
was
no way Tom could have talked about Eisenstein's homosexuality before
the Film Commenmt article. Some people were in the know before it,
ya'
know.
Basically what I am trying to say David is that you do not own the
market on gay or subversive readings on this post. (Remember how you
crowned yourself king, or queen if you like, when there was a
discussion on camp?) But if you insist on being the prom queen, be
my
guest. Hopefully I can contact JPC and some others outside this post.
11357
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:54am
Subject: Re: Joe & Sergei (formerly Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely)
>
> I've always wondered why Stalin let him get as far
> with "Ivan the Terrible" as he did -- an incredibly
> expensive piece of insanity made at the height of the war.
>
Yuri Tsivian's and Joan Neuberger's remarkable audiovisual essays
about this film on the Criterion DVD and the conditions of its
making--including a midnight meeting with Stalin--are just about the
most eye-opening works of historiography that I know of in
contemporary film criticism. They reveal that, far from being a
regressive work (as many Stalinist as well as capitalist critics
have claimed), Eisenstein's "Ivan" is clearly one of the most
courageous as well as ambitious films ever made by anyone.
11358
From: Damien Bona
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:24am
Subject: Re: Spielberg (was Tintin) (and still is)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> Could you elaborate on why you think Spielberg is the wrong choice?
> (It sounds as if the film project was solely the fruit of his
> relationship with the Hergé Foundation.)
>
> -Jaime
Jaime, it's not because of any deficiencies as a filmmaker on
Spielberg's or a sensibility that's out of sync with Hergé's. It
just that for Spielberg -- or any American -- Tintin is not in the
blood, and I doubt that anyone who hasn't had a relationship with our
tow-headed hero since youth could do him justice.
I'm trying to think of an American icon that would provide a miror
image with Eureopean filmmaker, but it's not quite the same because
American pop culture has been exported to such an extent that it
belongs to the world. I don't know, maybe Davey & Goliath done by
Ingmar Bergman.
The director I'd like to see get his hands on Tintin is Assayass.
11359
From: Damien Bona
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:33am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" >
>
> I love that song, even though Alec Wilder (with whose tastes in
> songs I usually agree) disparaged it in his great book. Just before
> your quote we have:
>
> "Imagine all the lonely years you've wasted
> Fishing for salmon,
> Losing at backgammon."
>
> Wasn't that cute?
>
Jean Pierre, what specifically bothered WIlder about this great
song? It's interesting that "Isn't It A Pity" is notable more for
its lyrics than it's music, and Wilder was primarily a composer
rather than a lyricist. Of course, Wilder was a famous curmudgeon,
and whenever you hear his old friends reminisce about him, they
always laugh about how crabby he was.
It's a pity that Ira Gershwin was always under George's shadow,
because I think he's every bit as brilliant a wordsmith as George was
a composer. Howard Dietz is another lyricist who doesn't get his
due. The "prince meet" and "mincemeet" Hamlet reference in "That's
Entertainment" alone gets him into the pantheon, and "Confession" is
one of the most brilliantly wry songs ever.
11360
From: Damien Bona
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:38am
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> (Right now I'm listening to Dawn Upshaw sing "April in Paris"!)
>
If you were really the board's camp-meister, David, you'd be
listening to Dolly Dawn, not Dawn Upshaw.
(me, right now, I'm listening to The Smiths' "The Boy With The Thorn
In His Side")
11361
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Spielberg (was Tintin) (and still is)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
"It just that for Spielberg -- or any American -- Tintin is not in
the blood..."
Very true - but while Tintin has been political corrected to the
extreme (originally an imperialist and racist), the problem is not so
much "in the blood", as I am sure that Spielberg knows his Tintin,
but culture: Tintin is French, so an American Tintin would become
as "French" as Kevin Kline in "French Kiss": I fear Americanised
stereotype.
"I'm trying to think of an American icon that would provide a mirror
image with Eureopean filmmaker."
Donald Duck in the hands of Godard. I can almost smell the
transformation of Donald into the mirror image of Bush (that would
actually be quiet funny).
Henrik
11362
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
>
> Apparently is a key word here, for it doesn't. I
> think you are
> preaching to the choir and your remarks undermind
> your insights. But
> I
> guess it's just that "internalized" homophobia in me
> because I refuse
> to wave the rainbow flag all the time.
>
Maybe you need more "choir practice." Besides, it's
not too late to go back into the closet -- where
apprently you'd be a lot happier. Robert Trachtenberg,
the director of the new Cary Grant documentary on AMC
has done just that. He has let it be known that he
doesn't want his gayness referred to in any of the
publicity for the film. As you might expect he
attacked what I had to say about it in "The Advocate
and we have a (brief, pointed) exchange about it in an
upcoming issue.
So if being gay is a problem with you don't let me
stand in your way!
>
> I cannot believe you missed the irony of me quoting
> Schumacher, since
> you are the one with the special quick wit becuase
> of your
> orienation.
> BTW, I can list a lot of bad gay filmmakers.
Nothing "ironic" about. Just idiotic. I suppose
Schumacher's hackdom cancels out Todd Haynes, Gus Van
Sant, Patrice Chereau, Tom Kalin, John Greyson John
Maybury, Andre Techine, Jacques Nolot, Paul Vecchiali,
Derek Jarman, and Pier Paolo Pasolini, right?
>
> What irritated me with you on this was that you
> insisted that there
> was
> no way Tom could have talked about Eisenstein's
> homosexuality before
> the Film Commenmt article. Some people were in the
> know before it,
> ya'
> know.
Do you know how to read? That's not what I said AT
ALL.
I said I knoew of nothing other than Almendros. If
Gunning has written about Eisenstein I'd love to see
it-- GOT THAT?!?!!!
> Basically what I am trying to say David is that you
> do not own the
> market on gay or subversive readings on this post.
Who said I did?
> (Remember how you
> crowned yourself king, or queen if you like, when
> there was a
> discussion on camp?)
You lack of a sense of humor is no fault of mine.
But if you insist on being the
> prom queen, be
> my
> guest. Hopefully I can contact JPC and some others
> outside this post.
>
Oh, you want to warn them about me? Very "Invasion of
the Body Snatchers"!
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11363
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Joe & Sergei (formerly Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely)
--- Jonathan Rosenbaum
wrote:
>
> Yuri Tsivian's and Joan Neuberger's remarkable
> audiovisual essays
> about this film on the Criterion DVD and the
> conditions of its
> making--including a midnight meeting with
> Stalin--are just about the
> most eye-opening works of historiography that I know
> of in
> contemporary film criticism. They reveal that, far
> from being a
> regressive work (as many Stalinist as well as
> capitalist critics
> have claimed), Eisenstein's "Ivan" is clearly one of
> the most
> courageous as well as ambitious films ever made by
> anyone.
>
That's what I've always thought. Thanks for pointing
out those essays.
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11364
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > >
> > Oh really? Have you ever beeen one?
>
> I've been IN quite a few.
>
> At least that's what they SAID they were.
>
>
> "Can you fill an inside straight?
Kindly tell me, if so.
- I've filled plenty inside straight
But in the morning - no, no, no."
> __________________________________
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11365
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter)
--- Damien Bona wrote:
It's interesting that "Isn't It A Pity" is
> notable more for
> its lyrics than it's music, and Wilder was primarily
> a composer
> rather than a lyricist. Of course, Wilder was a
> famous curmudgeon,
> and whenever you hear his old friends reminisce
> about him, they
> always laugh about how crabby he was.
>
"Curmudgeon" is putting it mildly. Interesting that
Hart's lyrics are regarded as more important than
Rodger's music. I think Hart was key memeber of the
team in many ways, but the music is amazing.
Sondheim (who should know better) puts Rodgers down
toorcently saying "He wrote an ironic love sont, then
he wrote an ironic love song, then he wrote an ironic
love song." He did a lot more than that. "Love Me
Tonight" and "Hallelujah I'm a Bum" are amazing
musical films.
> It's a pity that Ira Gershwin was always under
> George's shadow,
> because I think he's every bit as brilliant a
> wordsmith as George was
> a composer. Howard Dietz is another lyricist who
> doesn't get his
> due. The "prince meet" and "mincemeet" Hamlet
> reference in "That's
> Entertainment" alone gets him into the pantheon, and
> "Confession" is
> one of the most brilliantly wry songs ever.
>
>
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11366
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Catchup: Adorno/Drive/Porter/De-Lovely
--- Damien Bona wrote:
>
> If you were really the board's camp-meister, David,
> you'd be
> listening to Dolly Dawn, not Dawn Upshaw.
>
> (me, right now, I'm listening to The Smiths' "The
> Boy With The Thorn
> In His Side")
>
See Worrell? I'm just a piker when it comes to camp.
As for pop musical gloom I much prefer Rufus
Wainwright to Morrissey.
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11367
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter) (and Ira and Wilder)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> >
> Jean Pierre, what specifically bothered WIlder about this great
> song? It's interesting that "Isn't It A Pity" is notable more for
> its lyrics than it's music, and Wilder was primarily a composer
> rather than a lyricist. Of course, Wilder was a famous curmudgeon,
> and whenever you hear his old friends reminisce about him, they
> always laugh about how crabby he was.
>
> It's a pity that Ira Gershwin was always under George's shadow,
> because I think he's every bit as brilliant a wordsmith as George
was
> a composer. Howard Dietz is another lyricist who doesn't get his
> due. The "prince meet" and "mincemeet" Hamlet reference in "That's
> Entertainment" alone gets him into the pantheon, and "Confession"
is
> one of the most brilliantly wry songs ever.
"Where a ghost and a prince meet
And everyone ends in mincemeat."
Yeah, that was great. On a par with Hart's "matricide/mattress
side.
Wilder wrote: "Out of respect for Miss Mabel Mercer, who continues
to sing "Isn't It a Pity?" from "Pardon My English" (1933), I'll
include it in this survey. She always could make a listener believe
he was hearing a great song. Yet even she couldn't convince me of the
worth of the third and fourth measures of this song's release,
neither the static music nor the vapid words... The main strain is
simply adequate. It runs in predictable course with a series of
imitative phrases, eliciting interest for me only in the use of
triplets." (and he gives the five notes of the first bar).
JPC
11368
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:34pm
Subject: The Michael-David feud
Michael, the only sensible way to deal with David's proselytism is to
take it lightly, as I do. Just Brush up your Porter.
"So there's only one question that's hot,
Will we have fun or not?"
11369
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:41pm
Subject: Re: Spielberg mustn't do TINTIN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
> Jaime, it's not because of any deficiencies as a filmmaker on
> Spielberg's or a sensibility that's out of sync with Hergé's. It
> just that for Spielberg -- or any American -- Tintin is not in the
> blood, and I doubt that anyone who hasn't had a relationship with
our
> tow-headed hero since youth could do him justice.
Damien, I'm sorry, I still don't understand. It could very well be
that Spielberg has "had a relationship with our tow-headed hero
since youth," but I picked up on the fact that you weren't
criticizing Spielberg's talent. This "not in his blood" idea
escapes me. What is not in his blood?
Or more to the point, what tensions will be created in the Tintin-
Spielberg relationship that you will find unpleasant...or not simply
unpleasant, but inadequate?
Henrik seems to agree with you while at the same time...he doesn't:
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
> Very true - but while Tintin has been political corrected to the
> extreme (originally an imperialist and racist), the problem is not
so
> much "in the blood", as I am sure that Spielberg knows his Tintin,
> but culture: Tintin is French, so an American Tintin would become
> as "French" as Kevin Kline in "French Kiss": I fear Americanised
> stereotype.
Um...so the problem is not, in fact, nationalistic or cultural
sensibility but his deficiencies as a filmmaker, a la FRENCH KISS
and the Kevin Kline Frenchman?
-Jaime
11370
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:12pm
Subject: Re: The Michael-David feud
"Let's talk about drugs, let's talk about dope.
Let's try to picture Paramount minus Bob Hope."
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> Michael, the only sensible way to deal with David's
> proselytism is to
> take it lightly, as I do. Just Brush up your Porter.
>
> "So there's only one question that's hot,
> Will we have fun or not?"
>
>
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11371
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Adorno/Kluge
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> Joe, that was fascinating info about the Adorno/Kluge 'falling
>out'. Where does it come from?
It's from the book FRITZ LANG. HIS LIFE AND WORK. TEXTS AND
DOCUMENTS, published in 2001 by Filmmuseum Berlin, a massive volume
in French, German, and English. There is a good deal of information
here about Lang and Adorno's friendship. Pages 403 to 410 are
entirely devoted to it and there are scattered references later in
the book as well. The book itself, very expensive, is filled with
errors in formatting and in identification of photographs and film
stills. It also helps if you read at least some French and,
especially, German as the English language texts are often
incomplete, the art director of the book having inadvertently cropped
out blocks of English for the purposes of uninformity in the layout
of the three side-by-side German/French/English texts. Also, many
letters, memos, documents are photocopied for the book but not
translated. Again, knowing German is a big help.
There's also an amusing section dealing with Lang and Godard in which
Lang became increasingly disenchanted with Godard after CONTEMPT.
While conceding that Godard "is probably the best young talent
around" Lang also complained that "somehow he takes himself for God
incarnate...And besides, he has become as arrogant as only the Jewish
God was, not the Christian one."
11372
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Politics in Comics (was Tintin)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"My comics web site has a list of some of the liberal political comic
book stories I've glommed on to over the years:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/polit.htm"
That's a wonderful site Mike. Thank for researching and compiling the
list.
"Alos want to recommend a recent Japanese manga (comic book for
grownups)available in English translation, "Eagle: The Making of an
Asian-American President", by Kaiji Kawaguchi. This describes an
imaginary version of the 2000 US presidential race, in which a
Japanese-American senator runs for office. Book One (of five books
total) is the best. It would make a great movie."
I was in Japan when Kawaguchi's "Silent Service" was making a stir.
As you no doubt know, manga story lines play out over several years
(as long as the book remains popular)and with "Silent Service"
Kawaguchi incorporated real world events into the scenario. It was
one of the most popular manga of the early '90s.
Concerning Spielberg and TIN TIN, try this for cross-cultural
adaptation:
When Spiderman speaks in Hindi
By Siddharth Srivastava
NEW DELHI - Indian call center executives masquerading as American
citizens; Hollywood blockbusters such as Jurassic Park being dubbed
in Hindi; now we have American pop culture superhero Spiderman being
done up for the desi (local) audience in India. The makeover will be
complete in every sense as Marvel Comics, the makers of the comic
book hero, who was recently voted as the number one dream dad by kids
in England, are looking to completely "trans-create" rather than
just "translate" the new avatar.
Thus Peter Parker of Queens, the hero under the classic Spiderman
mask, will be replaced by a young Indian boy named Pavitr Prabhakar
from Mumbai, who will leap around rickshaws and scooters in crowded
Indian streets, and swing from monuments such as the Qutub Minar and
the Taj Mahal. Mumbai's first web-swinging super hero will be joined
by a re-incarnation of the classic Spiderman villain, the Green
Goblin, as Rakshasa, an Indian mythological demon.
Richard
11373
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:46pm
Subject: so...Tintin
After making a few inquiries I've come to discover that everyone in
the known universe knows about Tintin except me.
So the next question should bring in several billion replies: How
does one get started? There are many, many books on Amazon.com, and
I'm sure I can find them elsewhere, too.
-Jaime
p.s. Before anyone suggests it, time travel is physically
impossible. So I cannot travel back to my youth and grow up reading
his books, nor can I travel back to your youth, *as* a youth, and
grow up reading his books.
11374
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:26pm
Subject: SPIELBERG TINTIN under-development
When I first heard about Spielberg and TINTIN, I thought
it was an unfortunate mix (and I knew little about TINTIN
other than it was much more sophisticated than its cuteness
might imply).
My concern is that when Spielberg tackles adult material,
he 'under-develops' it, leaving it on a childish level, never
letting it mature to a sophisticated adult film. I think this
is an intentional choice; he is successful.
Perhaps one can say his films are maturationally challenged.
{As a child psychologist, I'm looking for a better word
than 'dumbing down.'}
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> Could you elaborate on why you think Spielberg is the wrong choice?
> (It sounds as if the film project was solely the fruit of his
> relationship with the Hergé Foundation.)
>
> -Jaime
11375
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:50pm
Subject: Re: Spielberg mustn't do TINTIN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
>
> > Very true - but while Tintin has been political corrected to the
> > extreme (originally an imperialist and racist), the problem is not
> so
> > much "in the blood", as I am sure that Spielberg knows his Tintin,
> > but culture: Tintin is French, so an American Tintin would become
> > as "French" as Kevin Kline in "French Kiss": I fear Americanised
> > stereotype.
>
> Um...so the problem is not, in fact, nationalistic or cultural
> sensibility but his deficiencies as a filmmaker, a la FRENCH KISS
> and the Kevin Kline Frenchman?
>
> -Jaime
No, the problem is culture. A brute like Haddock does only exist in
France. I can image one actor who can act as Haddock and that is Jean
Reno: He has the physic and the demeanor. I simply cannot think of any
American or English (well, on a good day Brian Blessed) actor who
could be Haddock. As a european and a fan of Tintin since 1972, that
is my approach.
Another problem is the character of Tintin himself, who on one side is
the embodyment of naivity and acts with the same carelessness as the
boys in Ballentine's "The Coral Island", always seeking adventure,
never thinking of the consequences, and on the other side is
incredible clever, always able to outwit his foe; this, in my opinion,
dating back to his days as supreme imperialist. Then Tintin also looks
silly: his hair, his kneepants and his jersey are out dated to say the
least: He is a relic of the 30s, complete with Asta lookalike Thierry,
the boy personification of a Dashiell Hammett detective.
Spielberg is a great director, but I cannot see any American director
being able to tackel Tintin the right way.
I would point at Jean-Marie Poiré as the director for this task, and I
would suggest a French writer. If you want a surreal Tintin, then
Roberto Benigni could do it. But its not because Spielberg is a bad
director he in my opinion is unable to film Tintin, its because he is
an American.
Henrik
11376
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:54pm
Subject: Re: SPIELBERG TINTIN under-development
--- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
>
> My concern is that when Spielberg tackles adult
> material,
> he 'under-develops' it, leaving it on a childish
> level, never
> letting it mature to a sophisticated adult film. I
> think this
> is an intentional choice; he is successful.
>
I would say that this is a charge that can certainly
be levelled at some of his films, but not all. "The
Terminal" definitely suffers from it as does "Indiana
Jones and the Temple of Doom" (outside of the opening
musical number). But "A.I." is exceptional in its
maturity and so in its own curious way is "E.T." their
respecive heroes (one human, the other not) facing
adult responsibility in different but equally dramatic
ways.
Spielberg's childishness is of considerable interest
as well in its moast anarchic forms -- particularly
"1941" and "The Sugarland Express,"but to some extent
even in "Close Encounters."
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11377
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:17pm
Subject: Re: SPIELBERG TINTIN under-development
The ones I was thinking about
Shindler's List
The Color Purple
Amistad
and most recently, The Terminal.
I believe few movies have the content inherent in making them
outstanding. When such movies miss, it is a disappointment.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> --- Elizabeth Anne Nolan wrote:
>
> >
> > My concern is that when Spielberg tackles adult
> > material,
> > he 'under-develops' it, leaving it on a childish
> > level, never
> > letting it mature to a sophisticated adult film. I
> > think this
> > is an intentional choice; he is successful.
> >
>
> I would say that this is a charge that can certainly
> be levelled at some of his films, but not all. "The
> Terminal" definitely suffers from it as does "Indiana
> Jones and the Temple of Doom" (outside of the opening
> musical number). But "A.I." is exceptional in its
> maturity and so in its own curious way is "E.T." their
> respecive heroes (one human, the other not) facing
> adult responsibility in different but equally dramatic
> ways.
>
> Spielberg's childishness is of considerable interest
> as well in its moast anarchic forms -- particularly
> "1941" and "The Sugarland Express,"but to some extent
> even in "Close Encounters."
>
>
>
>
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11378
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:25pm
Subject: Poire, furriners (Was: Spielberg mustn't do TINTIN)
> Spielberg is a great director, but I cannot see any American director
> being able to tackel Tintin the right way.
>
> I would point at Jean-Marie Poiré as the director for this task
Poire - there's a name you don't hear every day. I saw and rather
enjoyed his LES PETITS CALINS, with the wonderful, sadly missed
Dominique Laffin. Then he had that popular success with LES VISITEURS,
which I never caught. Which of his films do you like best?
This question of the national character of directors is interesting.
It's almost a cliche of auteurist criticism (maybe of film criticism in
general) that foreign directors have made many of the best films about
America. The ostensible reason for this, which makes sense to me, is
that Americans don't know what's American and what's universal, whereas
a visitor can have an acute sense of what's particular to an environment.
It has worked the other way around as well. Certainly some of the most
interesting depictions of England can be found in the work of American
expatriates like Losey, Mackendrick, Lester, Cornelius, Ivory.
However, this theory predisposes a desire on the part of the foreign
director to examine the foreignness of the country. Whereas many fear
that the dominating American film industry is more likely to Americanize
its subject for the home market. And Spielberg is synonymous with
Hollywood in many people's minds.
I'd say the question isn't whether American filmmakers can do justice to
a foreign subject, but whether they will be motivated to do so. - Dan
11379
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:42pm
Subject: Re: Poire, furriners (Was: Spielberg mustn't do TINTIN)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Spielberg is a great director, but I cannot see any American director
> > being able to tackel Tintin the right way.
> >
> > I would point at Jean-Marie Poiré as the director for this task
>
> Poire - there's a name you don't hear every day. I saw and rather
> enjoyed his LES PETITS CALINS, with the wonderful, sadly missed
> Dominique Laffin. Then he had that popular success with LES VISITEURS,
> which I never caught. Which of his films do you like best?
My favorite is "Operation: Corned Beef", not as subtle as "Les
Visiteurs", but the team of Clavier and Reno is the best since Funes
and Marais (I would personally love to see a remake of "Fantomas" with
Clavier and Reno) and it just gives hell.
Poiré simply is a brat. In "Dracula and Son", the son of Dracula,
locks his nanny out of the house and giggles as she dies by the rising
sun, because she demanded him to go to bed. With the same mischief in
mind does he write and direct.
> This question of the national character of directors is interesting.
> It's almost a cliche of auteurist criticism (maybe of film criticism in
> general) that foreign directors have made many of the best films about
> America. The ostensible reason for this, which makes sense to me, is
> that Americans don't know what's American and what's universal, whereas
> a visitor can have an acute sense of what's particular to an
environment.
Well said.
Henrik
11380
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:13pm
Subject: Re: The Michael-David feud
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Michael, the only sensible way to deal with David's proselytism is to
> take it lightly, as I do. Just Brush up your Porter.
>
> "So there's only one question that's hot,
> Will we have fun or not?"
Thanks JC, I'll try. But being David has labeled me a closet-case, --a
first in the 20 years I have been out of the closet, defiantely at the
age of 16--he assumes he knows me, my life and politics just because I
don't dance to the beat of his drum, no matter how off-beat it is.
(David, if you'd like to discuss this or attack me further, please e-
mail me at secretoktober04@w..., so we can clear the board
of this.)
Michael
11381
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:35pm
Subject: Vibrator (Was: strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
> By the way, I was quite moved by VIBRATOR, despite the occasional surfacing
> of a quality I can only describe as 'cutesy.' Perhaps most touching was the
> punk girl next to me who incessantly giggled for most of the film only to
> break into wracking sobs during the emotional climax. I know Michael
> Atkinson liked it, but has there been much other critical support?
Are you the Travis who works at Anthology? If so, we just met the other
day.
(Vague SPOILERS coming for VIBRATOR, though I think it's okay to read
this as a teaser unless you really like to come to a film with no
advance knowledge.)
Every single bit of advance word I heard about VIBRATOR was good - I get
the feeling critics have been supportive. I thought the film was super
cool. I actually didn't think the mise-en-scene was special, but the
sensibility was extraordinary. There was something Breillat-like about
the generosity to the characters, about the way that moral red flags
were raised (the man is openly criminal in petty and grand ways, the
woman schizophrenic and barely functional) only to be dismissed,
absorbed into the general fascination with the surprises of human
nature. In a way, the film is an idealized love story, but set in a
world in which everyone is too damaged even to aspire to a happy
monogamous coupling. Which doesn't prevent the people from taking
pleasure and inspiration from each other.
I liked the way the film preserved the "novelistic" qualities of the
material - specifically, the way that the events of the narrative were
no more than ripples on the surface of the sensibility of the
protagonist. And I loved those quasi-Hawksian interludes where the
heroine gets lessons in Citizens' Band radio and truck driving. The
radio scenes conveyed so much about the people: the woman's porous
interface with the world, her pleasure in the reality of external things
as a balance to the uncertain world inside her head; and the man's
patience and gentleness behind a tough-guy exterior. The truck-driving
lesson was just exhilarating: all that pent-up tension released all at
once as the heroine completes her scary mission. - Dan
11382
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Michael-David feud
Happy to do so, Mr. Worrall. But YOU'RE the one who
started this, not me.
I guess any mention of "gay" anything is likely to set
you off, hunh?
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
> wrote:
> > Michael, the only sensible way to deal with
> David's proselytism is to
> > take it lightly, as I do. Just Brush up your
> Porter.
> >
> > "So there's only one question that's hot,
> > Will we have fun or not?"
>
> Thanks JC, I'll try. But being David has labeled me
> a closet-case, --a
> first in the 20 years I have been out of the closet,
> defiantely at the
> age of 16--he assumes he knows me, my life and
> politics just because I
> don't dance to the beat of his drum, no matter how
> off-beat it is.
>
> (David, if you'd like to discuss this or attack me
> further, please e-
> mail me at secretoktober04@w..., so we
> can clear the board
> of this.)
>
> Michael
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
11383
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:35pm
Subject: Re: ditto what Dan said (Was: Vibrator)
I saw this on Monday at Anthology as well. Judging from the press
clippings in the lobby, it's received unanimous high praise from the
Voice, the NY Press and Time Out NY.
First, to Travis' statement: well, let's just say that one
man's 'cutesy' is another's "feminine candor" -- a quality that is
damn hard to convey without being opened to criticism or even
ridicule, because of a certain quality of emotional vulnerability and
self-deprecation that perhaps is innate to this voice -- it's
difficult to regard with seriousness because it doesn't even seem to
take itself seriously. But in an age where mainstream cinematic
feminism is being pigeonholed into Tarantino's or Charlie's Angels'
testosteronization of women, it's nice to see a film that understands
the wonder to be had in the simple, messy, unadorned and free-flowing
thoughts of a lonely woman wandering the aisles of a convenience
store.
On a broader note, this whimsicality (which I'm equating with
Travis' "cutesy") is something that you find in a lot of Asian cinema
these days -- OASIS, TAKE CARE OF MY CAT, MY SASSY GIRL, even some
Takeshi Kitano (KIKUJIRO in particular), they all have this kind of
youthful irreverence in their outlook to life as if they're observing
it from a vantage point situated deep inside themseles. It's very
individualistic in a romanticized way... It also happens to be the
same spirit that I see in the early French New Wave.
And what about the three levels of narration (two of which present
the protagonist's internal monologue: on-screen event, voice-over,
and silent inter-title? I haven't seen anyone do this kind of stuff
since Hou Hsiao Hsien's CITY OF SADNESS.
Dan, those Breillatian red flags you're talking about, I see that
also in OASIS (a very good film that treads similar ground to
VIBRATOR, but it simply pales in comparison -- Terajima Shinobu's
performance makes Moon So-ri's look like Christmas ham, though this
may not be an entirely fair comparison since there was something
deliberately provocational about Moon's performance as the CP shut-
in).
I think the mise-en scene issue may have something to do with the
filming strategy of digital handheld. Sort of going along with what
you said, I think this is a case where what you lose in composition
(at least in the traditional sense of the term, mise-en-scene) you
gain in the freedom to move through a world that's a lot less staged
than discovered. At least it feels like they found their settings as
they went along (I want to get the production notes -- it feels like
a low-budget shoot, but then how does that account for the breath-
taking helicopter aerial?) Whatever the reality of the production may
be, it's that feeling of freedom and finding things along the way
that makes this film special. This film is obviously inspired by
Dogme and in a very good way.
It's weird how the movie ends -- I didn't expect the truck drive ride
to essentially be the "climax" but in retrospect it kind of makes
sense, and it's true to the spirit of the film, the way it resists
making any grandiose statements or assertions and prefers an
indeterminate advance towards self-awareness.
In any case, this and BEFORE SUNSET are my two favorite films so far
this year, a really really great year so far that is not even halfway
over.
Kevin
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > By the way, I was quite moved by VIBRATOR, despite the occasional
surfacing
> > of a quality I can only describe as 'cutesy.' Perhaps most
touching was the
> > punk girl next to me who incessantly giggled for most of the film
only to
> > break into wracking sobs during the emotional climax. I know
Michael
> > Atkinson liked it, but has there been much other critical support?
>
> Are you the Travis who works at Anthology? If so, we just met the
other
> day.
>
> (Vague SPOILERS coming for VIBRATOR, though I think it's okay to
read
> this as a teaser unless you really like to come to a film with no
> advance knowledge.)
>
> Every single bit of advance word I heard about VIBRATOR was good -
I get
> the feeling critics have been supportive. I thought the film was
super
> cool. I actually didn't think the mise-en-scene was special, but
the
> sensibility was extraordinary. There was something Breillat-like
about
> the generosity to the characters, about the way that moral red
flags
> were raised (the man is openly criminal in petty and grand ways,
the
> woman schizophrenic and barely functional) only to be dismissed,
> absorbed into the general fascination with the surprises of human
> nature. In a way, the film is an idealized love story, but set in
a
> world in which everyone is too damaged even to aspire to a happy
> monogamous coupling. Which doesn't prevent the people from taking
> pleasure and inspiration from each other.
>
> I liked the way the film preserved the "novelistic" qualities of
the
> material - specifically, the way that the events of the narrative
were
> no more than ripples on the surface of the sensibility of the
> protagonist. And I loved those quasi-Hawksian interludes where the
> heroine gets lessons in Citizens' Band radio and truck driving.
The
> radio scenes conveyed so much about the people: the woman's porous
> interface with the world, her pleasure in the reality of external
things
> as a balance to the uncertain world inside her head; and the man's
> patience and gentleness behind a tough-guy exterior. The truck-
driving
> lesson was just exhilarating: all that pent-up tension released all
at
> once as the heroine completes her scary mission. - Dan
11384
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Re: tripartite or more modes of narration (was: ditto what Dan said)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
> And what about the three levels of narration (two of which present
> the protagonist's internal monologue: on-screen event, voice-over,
> and silent inter-title? I haven't seen anyone do this kind of
stuff
> since Hou Hsiao Hsien's CITY OF SADNESS.
My all-time favorite anime, NEON GENESIS EVANGELION, has quite a bit
of this. And it's the only "film" that I know of that features
interior monologues in someone else's head.
-Jaime
11385
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Vibrator (Was: strange coincidences and cinephilia and Spielberg)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
"The radio scenes conveyed so much about the people: the woman's
porous interface with the world, her pleasure in the reality of
external things as a balance to the uncertain world inside her head"
Exactly, and the scene that follows is to me the key scene in the
film: She's having a cold turkey on reality which is articulated by
her vomiting at the gas station.
Her entire life is build up on self-deception and lies (society's
demanded female rolemodel): As an extension to her self-deception, she
follows him based on a (possible not even her own) sexual fantasy and
once the "honeymoon" is over, once reality sets in, the high is gone
and she has a physical reaction.
Where Breillat gives in to the fantasy, as she explores sexuality,
Hiroki, thru the fantasy, attacks and exposes our views of feminism as
deception and manipulation: Where the female already is "liberated" in
the oeuvre of Breillat, we uncover the lies and witness the liberation
act in "Vibrator".
My problem with "Vibrator" is, that it spends so much time not caring
about its own themes. It has some strong sequences, but at times its
simply vague: It very much asks us to feel instead of contemplate.
Perhaps its a guy thing.
Henrik
11386
From: Travis Miles
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:28pm
Subject: Re: Vibrator and whimsy
Dan, I am the Travis from Anthology. It was very nice to meet you the other
evening and to hear of those rare Barnets. I had a chat with Steve Erickson
last night about all of the "film_byers" who had been at the VIBRATOR
screening and how I would not recognize any of them out of a line-up except
Dan.
Kevin, while I totally agree with your diagnosis of my "cutesy" as
equivalent to a strain of whimsicality with which I have been in a dire
struggle since the beginnings of my cinephilia, I am reluctant to think that
it has much to do with "feminine candor." Certainly it was refreshing to
have, as you called them, the "simple, messy, unadorned and free-flowing
thoughts" of this woman foregrounded, effectively countering the opacity
that most characters of this ilk are portrayed with. My problems were more
with the little touches that also, as a point of comparison, troubled Claire
Denis' Friday Night, in Vibrator: the cel phone/heart, the talking
advertisement; in Friday Night: the dancing letter on the car logo, the CGI
lamp in the hotel room. To be sure, these are incidental and somewhat
unobtrusive, but for me, they ruined the rapture. Perhaps it's a question of
technique, where are our Ray Harryhausens of incidental CGI? (Of course, if
you load a film down with this kind of nonsense, it becomes wonderful, ala
Tsui Hark or Chahine's Silence Please, We're Rolling).
I suppose what surprised me so much about the film was that (as a somewhat
unapologetic formalist) it managed to almost totally circumnavigate my
cynicism despite the fact that, as Dan pointed out, the mise-en-scene was
nothing special. Dogme doesn't work on me, but this did, and powerfully.
On 6/23/04 2:35 PM, "Kevin Lee" wrote:
> I saw this on Monday at Anthology as well. Judging from the press
> clippings in the lobby, it's received unanimous high praise from the
> Voice, the NY Press and Time Out NY.
>
> First, to Travis' statement: well, let's just say that one
> man's 'cutesy' is another's "feminine candor" -- a quality that is
> damn hard to convey without being opened to criticism or even
> ridicule, because of a certain quality of emotional vulnerability and
> self-deprecation that perhaps is innate to this voice -- it's
> difficult to regard with seriousness because it doesn't even seem to
> take itself seriously. But in an age where mainstream cinematic
> feminism is being pigeonholed into Tarantino's or Charlie's Angels'
> testosteronization of women, it's nice to see a film that understands
> the wonder to be had in the simple, messy, unadorned and free-flowing
> thoughts of a lonely woman wandering the aisles of a convenience
> store.
>
> On a broader note, this whimsicality (which I'm equating with
> Travis' "cutesy") is something that you find in a lot of Asian cinema
> these days -- OASIS, TAKE CARE OF MY CAT, MY SASSY GIRL, even some
> Takeshi Kitano (KIKUJIRO in particular), they all have this kind of
> youthful irreverence in their outlook to life as if they're observing
> it from a vantage point situated deep inside themseles. It's very
> individualistic in a romanticized way... It also happens to be the
> same spirit that I see in the early French New Wave.
>
> And what about the three levels of narration (two of which present
> the protagonist's internal monologue: on-screen event, voice-over,
> and silent inter-title? I haven't seen anyone do this kind of stuff
> since Hou Hsiao Hsien's CITY OF SADNESS.
>
> Dan, those Breillatian red flags you're talking about, I see that
> also in OASIS (a very good film that treads similar ground to
> VIBRATOR, but it simply pales in comparison -- Terajima Shinobu's
> performance makes Moon So-ri's look like Christmas ham, though this
> may not be an entirely fair comparison since there was something
> deliberately provocational about Moon's performance as the CP shut-
> in).
>
> I think the mise-en scene issue may have something to do with the
> filming strategy of digital handheld. Sort of going along with what
> you said, I think this is a case where what you lose in composition
> (at least in the traditional sense of the term, mise-en-scene) you
> gain in the freedom to move through a world that's a lot less staged
> than discovered. At least it feels like they found their settings as
> they went along (I want to get the production notes -- it feels like
> a low-budget shoot, but then how does that account for the breath-
> taking helicopter aerial?) Whatever the reality of the production may
> be, it's that feeling of freedom and finding things along the way
> that makes this film special. This film is obviously inspired by
> Dogme and in a very good way.
>
> It's weird how the movie ends -- I didn't expect the truck drive ride
> to essentially be the "climax" but in retrospect it kind of makes
> sense, and it's true to the spirit of the film, the way it resists
> making any grandiose statements or assertions and prefers an
> indeterminate advance towards self-awareness.
>
> In any case, this and BEFORE SUNSET are my two favorite films so far
> this year, a really really great year so far that is not even halfway
> over.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>>> By the way, I was quite moved by VIBRATOR, despite the occasional
> surfacing
>>> of a quality I can only describe as 'cutesy.' Perhaps most
> touching was the
>>> punk girl next to me who incessantly giggled for most of the film
> only to
>>> break into wracking sobs during the emotional climax. I know
> Michael
>>> Atkinson liked it, but has there been much other critical support?
>>
>> Are you the Travis who works at Anthology? If so, we just met the
> other
>> day.
>>
>> (Vague SPOILERS coming for VIBRATOR, though I think it's okay to
> read
>> this as a teaser unless you really like to come to a film with no
>> advance knowledge.)
>>
>> Every single bit of advance word I heard about VIBRATOR was good -
> I get
>> the feeling critics have been supportive. I thought the film was
> super
>> cool. I actually didn't think the mise-en-scene was special, but
> the
>> sensibility was extraordinary. There was something Breillat-like
> about
>> the generosity to the characters, about the way that moral red
> flags
>> were raised (the man is openly criminal in petty and grand ways,
> the
>> woman schizophrenic and barely functional) only to be dismissed,
>> absorbed into the general fascination with the surprises of human
>> nature. In a way, the film is an idealized love story, but set in
> a
>> world in which everyone is too damaged even to aspire to a happy
>> monogamous coupling. Which doesn't prevent the people from taking
>> pleasure and inspiration from each other.
>>
>> I liked the way the film preserved the "novelistic" qualities of
> the
>> material - specifically, the way that the events of the narrative
> were
>> no more than ripples on the surface of the sensibility of the
>> protagonist. And I loved those quasi-Hawksian interludes where the
>> heroine gets lessons in Citizens' Band radio and truck driving.
> The
>> radio scenes conveyed so much about the people: the woman's porous
>> interface with the world, her pleasure in the reality of external
> things
>> as a balance to the uncertain world inside her head; and the man's
>> patience and gentleness behind a tough-guy exterior. The truck-
> driving
>> lesson was just exhilarating: all that pent-up tension released all
> at
>> once as the heroine completes her scary mission. - Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
11387
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:30pm
Subject: Payment for writers
This is a rant on getting paid for your work as a film writer that will
not interest everyone, but may interest some. As you will see, my
attitude is that of one who makes a living as a writer, or tries to
("You call this living?" is usually my answer to whether I get a "living
wage," though in truth my income is reasonably middle-class, or lower
middle-class.)
As you may know from the Sokurov thread and Mike Grost's query and my
reply, I wrote the company that was releasing his videos for 12,000
Euros to see if a consumer release was possible. It is, but nothing is
certain.
But it turns out they had tried to reach me earlier through the "Chicago
Reader" for permission to include a reprint of my Sokurov Reader review
with their package; there's apparently a CD-ROM of supplementary
material. They were about to ship and needed permission, which would
include permission of museums to reprint the review too, right away. I
asked for money; they said they'd spent their whole budget but could
manage 70 Euros; I said OK.
Thank you, Mike Grost!
Given more time I might have tried to negotiate a higher fee. 300 Euros
might have been more appropriate. Still, I had to assume they were
telling the truth about being almost out of funds or risk not having it
included at all. And they've promised to send me the CD-ROM and copies
of future consumer releases, if any.
I found out that they are shipping ten of these sets to museums Thus
their gross is 120,000 Euros. I hope a lot of it goes to Sokurov! I also
wonder if other writers were paid.
One point of this is to point out to film writers that you can sometimes
get fees if you ask. I don't like false threats so I don't say "You
can't have it for less than X" if in fact I would accept less. I'm sure
in some cases I didn't get as much as I could have, but I'd like to
assume that most people are honest. But the concept of paying the writer
is relatively, uh, rare, and I often receive requests that include the
information that they'll pay something but have no idea what. To me an
offer isn't complete without certain details such as due date, length
range, and payment.
The "market" for serious film writing is of course highly distorted by
all those assistant professors running around lose for whom publications
might mean tenure and other things unattainable for some of us such as
health insurance. Such people would gladly pay to get published if they
could do so secretly and certainly wouldn't mind being published for free.
Still, I've always found the "write for free" model. a little obnoxious,
especially for print as opposed to Web-only publications. The printer
generally gets paid, after all. The answer of editors of write-for-free
publications is usually, "We couldn't publish if we had to pay the
writers too," but I would say that thinking along such lines was wrong
from the beginning. Similarly, there are publications, including Web
based ones, which pay one or two editors but no writers. Writing takes
time; writing usually costs money, too, if only for a phone call or two.
Here's an amusing anecdote: The American Film Institute gave their "Maya
Deren" award to Ernie Gehr in 1989. With these awards, which went to
impendent and avant-garde film and videomakers, they published a little
booklet on the recipients with commissioned essays. Gehr recommended me,
so they called. "We're sorry, it has to be very short, 500 words, and we
need it very soon, in a few weeks, and we can't really pay you much,
only $200." I thought to myself that $200 isn't that terrible, and
furthermore it's nice that they're apologizing for it, and I did it.
Two years later I got exactly the same phone call about Pat O'Neill, but
from a different person. He had recommended me; it has to be short; we
need it soon; we can't pay very much, only $75.
WHAT???
I explained that I'd been paid $200 for the same work only two years
ago. The person on the phone said there had been budget cuts. I'm sure
cutting a few hundred out of writers' fees was enough to close a really
big budget gap, I replied sarcastically. I wondered if they had cut full
time salaries to a third of their former levels. No, they hadn't.
Then I came up with a plan for them that I was proud of. There were
three recipients, three essays. I said, therefore you have $225
available to pay writers. That's enough for one essay. For O'Neill, I'll
be happy to construct a 500 word excerpt from my already-written review
of "Water and Power" for you to reprint at no charge. Try to do the same
with one of the other two award recipients, presumably the one about
whom a lot has been written already, and then commission an essay on the
film or videomaker who has had little written on her work. They weren't
interested in my concept.
Again, the psychology at work here is that the writer should get
nothing, or next to nothing. That the French video company came up with
even a token payment at the last minute I thought was OK. I could be
wrong, but I have the feeling that if their email to the Reader had been
forwarded to me, which for some reason it wasn't, they would have paid
more reasonably back when they were still in the planning stages. On the
other hand, if they'd taken a tiny bit of initiative it would have been
a very short search to find my Web site and hence my email address.
I think it's incumbent upon all writers to always insist that we be
treated with dignity: that the terms of an offer be clear; that payment
be reasonable for the publication and situation. This doesn't mean you
should never write for free; I have, and would do so again in the right
situation. It does mean that you shouldn't just accept the "We have no
money" argument at face value.
- Fred C.
11388
From:
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Vibrator and whimsy (and Claire Denis)
Travis wrote:
<< in Friday Night (Claire Denis): the dancing letter on the car logo, the CGI
lamp in the hotel room. To be sure, these are incidental and somewhat
unobtrusive, but for me, they ruined the rapture. Perhaps it's a question of
technique, where are our Ray Harryhausens of incidental CGI? (Of course, if
you load a film down with this kind of nonsense, it becomes wonderful, ala
Tsui Hark or Chahine's Silence Please, We're Rolling). >>
I enjoyed the dancing letter. It reminded one of "Les Vampires" (Louis
Feuillade, 1915-1916), and the moving letters that spell out IRMA VEP. This sort of
incidental animation has ancient roots in the cinema.
Mike Grost
11389
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:51pm
Subject: Re: Payment for writers
Thanks Fred--your perspective and info is really helpful for those of
us writers who are just starting out. My friend Pascal Acquarello,
who runs the www.filmref.com website was recently asked by the
National Gallery of Art to write up capsules for their calendars and
they asked him about his fees; he had no idea what to tell them. It
makes it difficult when a lot of the organizations we would want to
write for are non-profit or public supported and we want to support
them ourselves, but you're absolutely correct, writers should get
paid for their work whenever possible.
To complicate matters, there is also a lot of freely-offered writing
on the web that I would pay to read and plenty that I'm supposed to
pay for that isn't worth it.
Congrats on the Sokurov essays, too. I had heard about the DVDs a
while back and was disappointed that they were being relegated to ten
museums and not consumers at large. I'm glad there seems to be some
dialogue on this matter.
Doug
11390
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 0:00am
Subject: Re: Feuillade JUDEX [was Vibrator and whimsy (and Claire Denis)]
I've only watched the prologue and first episode of JUDEX, but if it's
any indication of what's to come, this is another Feuillade triumph.
His mise-en-scene is more advanced than LES VAMPIRES although the
filmic-cultural descendents are different (Batman rather than Mabuse,
not that the two are entirely alien to one another). VAMPIRES is
great, really great, and that's the sense I'm getting from JUDEX.
Also, the DVD looks superb and there's a fine score by Robert Israel.
-Jaime
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Travis wrote:
>
> << in Friday Night (Claire Denis): the dancing letter on the car
logo, the CGI
> lamp in the hotel room. To be sure, these are incidental and somewhat
> unobtrusive, but for me, they ruined the rapture. Perhaps it's a
question of
> technique, where are our Ray Harryhausens of incidental CGI? (Of
course, if
> you load a film down with this kind of nonsense, it becomes
wonderful, ala
> Tsui Hark or Chahine's Silence Please, We're Rolling). >>
>
> I enjoyed the dancing letter. It reminded one of "Les Vampires" (Louis
> Feuillade, 1915-1916), and the moving letters that spell out IRMA
VEP. This sort of
> incidental animation has ancient roots in the cinema.
>
> Mike Grost
11391
From:
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:14am
Subject: Norman Lloyd (was: The Best of Groucho)
Damien, when I interviewed Norman Lloyd, he seemed very proud of "The Jar."
He directed something like twenty-two episodes of the two Hitchcock series,
but felt that episode was his best. Ever since speaking to him, I've been very
curious to see some of his directorial efforts; I'm very familiar with him as
an actor, but almost entirely unfamiliar with his work as a director. For
example, in addition to "The Jar" (which is, as far as I know, impossible to
see), there is the television film he made of Renoir's play "Carola" for PBS.
Anyone seen it?
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11392
From: Andy Rector
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:54am
Subject: Re: Norman Lloyd (was: The Best of Groucho)
I saw Lloyd's Carola for PBS. The direction is precise, its a great
set, and he gets quite bit from the dressing room (where most of the
play takes place) and the adjoining hallway. It's available on video,
worth a look.
The thing is maybe a bit long-winded, but who's to blame for that, I
don't know.
-a
11393
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:36am
Subject: Re: Spielberg mustn't do TINTIN
Jaime, what I'm trying to say is that because Tintin is such an
intrinsic part of growing up in France/Belgium (and to a slightly
lesser degree other European countries), I don't think that, as an
American, Spielberg could fully understand the Tintin ethos. I think
there would be (unintentionally) a lack of respect for Tintin's
significance and national identity
Similarly, I don't feel that a non-European could do justice to a
movie about May 1968, or that a non-French or Algerian director could
tackle the early 60s conflict in France over Algerian independence
and the deadly Paris riots against the bombing campaign of the right-
wing Secret Army Organisation.
On the other hand, I don't think that, say, a French or Spanish
director could do justice to a film version of Sinclair Lewis's Main
Street, a quintessentially American novel.
How about the Dardenne Brothers as directors of the Tintin picture?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
>
> > Jaime, it's not because of any deficiencies as a filmmaker on
> > Spielberg's or a sensibility that's out of sync with Hergé's. It
> > just that for Spielberg -- or any American -- Tintin is not in
the
> > blood, and I doubt that anyone who hasn't had a relationship with
> our
> > tow-headed hero since youth could do him justice.
>
> Damien, I'm sorry, I still don't understand. It could very well be
> that Spielberg has "had a relationship with our tow-headed hero
> since youth," but I picked up on the fact that you weren't
> criticizing Spielberg's talent. This "not in his blood" idea
> escapes me. What is not in his blood?
>
>
>
11394
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:45am
Subject: Re: so...Tintin
Jaime, the first Tintin adventure was "Tintin in the Land of the
Soviets," so I'd suggest starting there.
There's a lovely article about Tintin in the Australian newspaper,
The Age:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939833186.html?
from=storyrhs&oneclick=true
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> After making a few inquiries I've come to discover that everyone in
> the known universe knows about Tintin except me.
>
> So the next question should bring in several billion replies: How
> does one get started? There are many, many books on Amazon.com,
and
> I'm sure I can find them elsewhere, too.
>
> -Jaime
>
> p.s. Before anyone suggests it, time travel is physically
> impossible. So I cannot travel back to my youth and grow up
reading
> his books, nor can I travel back to your youth, *as* a youth, and
> grow up reading his books.
11395
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:54am
Subject: Re: Norman Lloyd (was: The Best of Groucho)
Peter, The Jar is so good I always assumed it was directed by
Hitchcock himself.
It was remade by Tim Burton for the 1985 Hitchcock Presents revival
series (my God, I can't believe it's nearly 20 years since that thing
was on).
On a hunch, I looked at my listings of videos, and it turns out I do
have the Burton version on tape, which I'd be happy to copy for you
if you're interested.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Damien, when I interviewed Norman Lloyd, he seemed very proud
of "The Jar."
> He directed something like twenty-two episodes of the two Hitchcock
series,
> but felt that episode was his best. Ever since speaking to him,
I've been very
> curious to see some of his directorial efforts; I'm very familiar
with him as
> an actor, but almost entirely unfamiliar with his work as a
director. For
> example, in addition to "The Jar" (which is, as far as I know,
impossible to
> see), there is the television film he made of Renoir's
play "Carola" for PBS.
> Anyone seen it?
>
> Peter
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11396
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:08am
Subject: Along The Great Divide
Does anyone know if Antonioni ever saw Raoul Walsh's Along The Great
Divide, which I saw again the other night for the first time in 20
years?
I don't think a desert landscape has ever been used so incisively, as
the landscape's desolate, cragged bleakness is the perfect visual
embodiment of the primal (familial) emotions driving the characters.
Employing natural settings espressively is, of course, a hallmark of
Walsh, but I feel that he really outdid himself here, with only
Colorado Territory being on the same high level.
11397
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:17am
Subject: Re: Adorno (and Cole Porter) (and Ira and Wilder)
Thanks for the Wilder quote, JP; I'll just assume he was in a
particularly curmudgeonly mood the dat he wrote that.
Are you familiar with the Wilder song "Blackberry Winter"? Wilder
had the knack of coming up with melodies that were concurrently re-
assuring in their primal beauty and heart-breaking in their brutally
direct emotionalism, "Blackberry Winter" and "I'll Be Around" being
for me the prime examples.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- >
> Wilder wrote: "Out of respect for Miss Mabel Mercer, who
continues
> to sing "Isn't It a Pity?" from "Pardon My English" (1933), I'll
> include it in this survey. She always could make a listener believe
> he was hearing a great song. Yet even she couldn't convince me of
the
> worth of the third and fourth measures of this song's release,
> neither the static music nor the vapid words... The main strain is
> simply adequate. It runs in predictable course with a series of
> imitative phrases, eliciting interest for me only in the use of
> triplets." (and he gives the five notes of the first bar).
> JPC
11398
From:
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:15am
Subject: Re: Norman Lloyd (was: The Best of Groucho)
Years ago, enjoyed:
Knuckle (Norman Lloyd, 1975)
This was a version of the David Hare play. It was broadcast on Public
Television (PBS) in the United States. Do not know where one could see it today. It
is a feature-length film. It has the nervous, emotionally strained quality that
typifies Lloyd's direction.
Among the episodes of "Alfred Hitchcock" directed by Lloyd, "Very Moral
Theft" stood out. Have never seen "The Jar".
Mike Grost
11399
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:18am
Subject: Re: Payment for writers
I contributed two articles to Roger and Howard's mimeographed
magazine for free. After that I was paid for everything.
I relaxed that policy when I was at Fox, getting paid a big salary --
I even wrote presskits for free for Monte Hellman and Oja Kodar,
which Murdoch paid to run off, although he didn't know it, because I
felt I could afford to. After I left I went back to being strict
about it.
I wrote a couple of short pieces for net mags when I was starting
Hitchcock at Work because I had money on hand for all my expenses,
and I wanted to have my say about a couple of things: eg John Michael
Hayes, or, curiously enough, an Adorno article on tv noir that I'd
always wanted to tell people about. Since then, nothing without
payment.
And this isn't a policy that I started when I was already
established. With no publications to my credit, I was offered the job
of a lifetime corresponding for CdC, and I insisted on being paid.
When they tried to stiff me on EXPENSES for the two Made in USA
issues in 1982, I told them they couldn't have the Welles interview I
had just done for their Welles special issue till they reimbursed me.
They tried to bluff me with a Welles article another writer proposed
to them that contained some quotes, but I hung tough and got paid,
not only for my expenses but two issues worth of articles and the
Welles interview.
EVERYONE will try to convince you that you should not ask for
payment. If you think you're worth it, insist on something, even a
token amount. Neither Trafic nor CdC will let anyone reprint an
article (unless it was a reprint to start with, in the case of
Trafic, which does a lot of those) without some token payment. When a
net mag wanted to run my Mes 68 article, Claudine said put up or shut
up, and they didn't get it. That works both ways, and in a capitalist
society, that's the only way it should work.
This policy, I should add, doesn't extend to reprints of something I
own -- that's where I differ from Fred, perhaps wrongly, but I tend
to hand those out pretty freely, because it's usually a chance to
have something read here that saw the light of day in another
language. Or in a little-seen publication: I was paid $40 by a small
Philadelphia paper for my review of George Bataille's Story of the
Eye, and afterward let the filmmaker use it free of charge on the DVD
box, which he was self-distributing. To me that seems reasonable.
11400
From:
Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:04am
Subject: Re: Payment for writers
As someone who currently writes way too much for free, I very much
appreciated both Fred and Bill's posts. But Fred, I wonder if you're overstating things
when you say that "The "market" for serious film writing is of course highly
distorted by all those assistant professors running around lose for whom
publications might mean tenure..." Do you really find that the practices of even a
relatively well-known academic film journal like Screen impacts the way, say,
the Chicago Reader works? Those assistant professors need to publish in
refereed journals. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, even an unimpeachably
prestigious but nevertheless non-refereed magazine like The New Yorker would count
towards tenure on an assistant prof's CV. Screen and The Canadian Journal of
Film Studies are different species from The Chicago Reader or The New Yorker.
Does their inability or unwillingness to pay their tenure hopefuls contribute to
the market of ideas about non-refereed publications of any stripe?
I do know there are publications that straddle the line between academia and
criticism. Are Sight & Sound or Senses of Cinema refereed?
Also, how many refereed journals have the ad revenue and/or subscription
income of a Chicago Reader or even the Milwaukee equivalent, Shepherd Express?
Perhaps I'm being naive and if so, someone please school me. Clearly, the only
payoff is the hope of tenure. But again, do these vagaries extend outside of
academia?
Kevin John
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