Home Film
Art
Other: (Travel, Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact
a_film_by Main Page
Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
Important: The copyright of each post below is owned by the
person who wrote the post, and reproducing it in any form requires
that person's permission.
It is possible to email the author of any post by finding a post
they have written in the a_film_by archives at
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/messages and
emailing them from that Web site.
11701
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 1:59am
Subject: Re: One Plus One
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> (An Assayas-curated series about films-with-inspiring-soundtracks
> follows in August, called "I Can Hear the Guitar...")
>
> craig.
For the very few on this List who might not know, "I can Hear the
Guitar" is an allusion to the title of Philippe Garrel's 1991
film "J'entend plus la guitare" (which could be translated: "I don't
hear the guitar no more" -- the English double negative being a sort
of equivalent for the French dropping of the negative "ne")
JPC
11702
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:14am
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> It's perfectly fine for you guys to be put off by the f-words.
While
> I don't agree with your conclusions in the least (and I'd point out
> that plenty of young people like more "correct" music like classical
> music and jazz and avoid cursing), for me to call certain list-
members
> reactionary and fuddy-duddies for whatever reasons would just be an
> unhelpful and destructive response to the way it's implied from your
> perspective that my tastes are low, my crude language indicates a
poor
> grasp of worthy ideas (which may be true regardless), and that I'm
> further pushing our (by which I mean, your) civilization to the
brink
> of collapse. I'd rather let you have your digs and break the circle
> of generational hostility instead of perpetuating it. So come on,
old
> guys and gals, take your best shot. I'll happily play the role of
> martyr for a few f-words and the crappy pop music that I don't even
> listen to.
>
> Oh and...
>
> You think you're lonely? Welcome to the crowd.
>
> "I am alone but I am not lonely."
>
> Robert De Niro, HEAT (1995)
>
> -Jaime
> Oh come on Jaime! Why do you always take everything personally? I
didn't say you use four=letter words, I said the guy you recommended
keeps doing it and it doesn't help his fucking thesis. I also said
that I agreed with most of what he said. I didn't say you don't tuck
in your shirt or listen to crappy music -- I don't even know what
music if any you listen to. What the fuck is your problem? You see I
can do it too. I can even say "asshole" and motherfucker". What does
it prove? And I was just quoting an old song, I'm not the least bit
lonely.
JPC
11703
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:14am
Subject: Re: Re: One Plus One
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> For the very few on this List who might not know,
> "I can Hear the
> Guitar" is an allusion to the title of Philippe
> Garrel's 1991
> film "J'entend plus la guitare" (which could be
> translated: "I don't
> hear the guitar no more" -- the English double
> negative being a sort
> of equivalent for the French dropping of the
> negative "ne")
>
And as I'm sure you know, J-P, Garrel's film is about
his affair with Nico.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11704
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:17am
Subject: Re: One Plus One
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> >
> > For the very few on this List who might not know,
> > "I can Hear the
> > Guitar" is an allusion to the title of Philippe
> > Garrel's 1991
> > film "J'entend plus la guitare" (which could be
> > translated: "I don't
> > hear the guitar no more" -- the English double
> > negative being a sort
> > of equivalent for the French dropping of the
> > negative "ne")
> >
> And as I'm sure you know, J-P, Garrel's film is about
> his affair with Nico.
> >
> > Yes, the film was dedicated to Nico.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11705
From:
Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Decline of the American Empire
We would hate to see you leave the USA, JPC. We need you here! You add much
to our film culture.
Some other thoughts:
1) My personal experience suggests that four-letter words reached a peak in
the US in the 1970's, and have generally been absent since. Swearing seems much
less common today than 30 years ago.
2) People listen to music out of love, not for any other reason. People
listen to rock music or classical music because they love it. Music is such a
positive experience in people's lives.
I do agree with recent posts, that urge people to explore different kinds of
music. I am planning to buy my first Radiohead CD this weekend - had never
even heard of them before! People who are not familar with classical music would
do well to heed Fred Camper's post and explore Bach, Ives, Schoenberg, all of
whom were my idols as a teenager.
Cross fertilization is important.
Mike Grost
11706
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:47am
Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate (was Sitting habits )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" w
> Unfortunately not. No one wanted to read a defense of Heaven's
> Gate in the US at the time, and it didn't even occur to me to
> approach any of the American film mags. The piece was the first
> published on the film in France (a couple of months before its
> release there) and I think it made a bit of a splash (Todd McCarthy
> even mentioned it in "Variety"!) I believe that at the time I was the
> only person writing about the film who bothered to see it twice. What
> prompted me to write the piece was the superficiality and outright
> meanness of the American critics. I titled it, a bit
> pompously, "Elegy for a Stillborn Masterpiece".
>
> JPC
Was the piece for Positif? Vincent Canby's attack is the most famous/
infamous -depending how one feels about the film- and it frustrates me
that a middlebrow like him had the power to keep films from finding
distributors or being screened for more than a week. I've also read
"Final Cut", but I can't really side with its executives/producers know
best mentality.
Joe Roth recently blamed the failure of "Gigli" on director Martin
Brest and said; "never again will I give a director final cut." I
wonder how much the films cost overruns were incurred by the salaries
of the two "stars" and the amount of money put into hyping it. But
when a film fails- blame the director.
BYW: I am not inferring that both films are equal. I haven't seen
"Gigli" but Roth's comments really annoyed me, along with the fact that
he used to be a director.
"The film is great, we just want to make a few small changes."
Michael
11707
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:21am
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> > Oh come on Jaime! Why do you always take everything personally?
Well, partly because I'm a paranoid loon, but partly because I think
I'm in the same crosshairs that you and others have aimed on "those
kids today."
> didn't say you use four=letter words, I said the guy you recommended
> keeps doing it and it doesn't help his fucking thesis.
Sure, okay.
> I also said
> that I agreed with most of what he said. I didn't say you don't tuck
> in your shirt or listen to crappy music -- I don't even know what
> music if any you listen to. What the fuck is your problem? You see I
> can do it too. I can even say "asshole" and motherfucker". What does
> it prove? And I was just quoting an old song, I'm not the least bit
> lonely.
Well, I was quoting a nice moment in a movie I like, so we're on
something approaching equal terms, there. What's my problem? I
dunno, I'm fucked in the head. For instance, I think curse words have
their place and today I was reminded that I don't always know where
that "place" is.
-Jaime
11708
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:34am
Subject: Re: Re: Decline of the American Empire
>
> I do agree with recent posts, that urge people to explore different
> kinds of
> music. I am planning to buy my first Radiohead CD this weekend - had
> never
> even heard of them before! ...
> Cross fertilization is important.
Indeed. BTW, when you buy your first Radiohead CD, I'd recommend
getting them in order of release -- skipping the "germination-pains"
debut 'Pablo Honey' (although it does contain the excellent and
breakthrough 1993-mega-hit-single "Creep"), start with 'The Bends' from
1995, then 'OK Computer' from 1997 (in which, to quote the blurb of an
issue of the NME from the time, it became an undeniable fact that
"Radiohead Rule OK?"), then 'Kid A' from 2000 and 'Amnesiac' from 2001
(the two albums were recorded across the same two years of sessions --
upon deciding to split them up into two separate works rather than one
twenty-two song double-album, front man Thom Yorke declared in an
interview regarding the order of release for the two records, "It
simply became a question of which gun to fire first"), then last year's
'Hail to the Thief.' I'd recommend also picking up the "I Might Be
Wrong - Live Recordings" EP, which collects seven or eight live
interpretations of 'Kid A' and 'Amnesiac' tracks -- with a wildly
different and very, very powerful reworking of the latter's "Like
Spinning Plates" (in its original form my vote for the single greatest
pop song recording since, I don't know, "Strawberry Fields Forever" or
something off of 'Smile') -- and a version of "Morning Bell" with a
rapturous, savage conclusion.
(Note to Bill -- the discs will go out this weekend for real; it's
turned into a several-CD project.)
Also, for anyone who's interested in "forward-thinking" pop music,
click here:
http://www.ptanderson.com/Fiona_Extraordinary_Machine.mp3
for an MP3 of the title track of Fiona Apple's
two-years-in-the-recording album with cowriter/ingenious-producer Jon
Brion (who might be familiar to some of the LA residents on the list
especially -- otherwise you'll know him from his production of Fiona's
previous, second album 'When the Pawn...' or maybe the Aimee Mann and
Michael Penn records he's produced -- though those two aren't my
personal cup of tea) -- apparently, Sony Records can't find an
"appropriate" single from the record, and are thinking of shelving it
completely -- and now someone (probably Fiona and/or Jon Brion) have
leaked the album to the Web. Of course, some other record company will
pick it up -- same thing that happened with the second to last Wilco
record (which I think is incredibly overrated -- I hate rock-man
singers who, rather than sing the word "combine" as "combine," sing
something closer to "combahn" -- it's affected, and grating -- also, I
don't think the music is that great, but I look forward to hearing the
latest one). Anyway, this leaked track from the album hints at
something very wonderful and ambitious -- I'm really looking forward to
the release of this, it seems like the mega-recording time has been
time well spent. It's way beyond the mainstream.
craig.
11709
From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:36am
Subject: Re: Decline of the American Empire
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>We would hate to see you leave the USA, JPC. We need you here! You
>add much to our film culture.
I wholeheartedly agree. But do you really think that the same
degradation of culture and language is not taking place "where you
come from"?
As for "Vern", it seems to me that his writing is performance art,
using a particular populist idiom to construct a specific character,
in fact one not altogether unlike Michael Moore's Joe Lunchpail
persona. I'm putting off reading the F-9/11 piece until I've
had the chance to see the movie, but his conceit of treating All
About Eve and Three Faces of Eve as related entries in a series (!)
strikes me as imaginative and playful, making us examine these two
films for unexpected correspondences in a way that's new and
possibly productive.
--Robert Keser
11710
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:53am
Subject: OT: Radiohead (was: Decline)
> skipping the "germination-pains"
> debut 'Pablo Honey' (although it does contain the excellent and
> breakthrough 1993-mega-hit-single "Creep"),
As much as I dig "Creep," I really enjoy the whole album, there are
fewer songs that I skip than "The Bends" (although I think the great
songs on "Bends" are greater than the great songs on "Pablo Honey").
Is it really that unpopular? Isn't there this circle of "early
Radiohead devotees" who are suspicious of all their recent stuff,
starting with "Kid A," on account of (allegations follow) in the
beginning they were a kick-ass rock & roll band and now they're just
drowning in Thom Yorke's masturbatory whining and pointless
experimentation?
Personally, with the exception of "Hail to the Thief" (which I haven't
bought yet or heard any tracks from), I like all their albums and
think they all have remarkable qualities, despite their differences.
Lately I've been enjoying the seemingly-skippable "Amnesiac" tracks,
"Life in a Glass House" and "You and Whose Army?" (The following was
not written by a seasoned Christgau-like rock critic so forgive me if
it sounds vague and fudgy.) With "Glass House" I get a kick out of
the Funeral in Little Italy/Funeral in New Orleans marching band stuff
(for lack of a better understanding of Yorke's sampling) and with "You
and Whose Army," what initially seemed like Yorke's greatest weakness,
the "ironic" juxtaposition of particular contemporary phrases with a
common sell-by date (who says "you and whose army" anymore? "get off
my case?") with against-the-grain melodies and styles, eventually
becomes a song that genuinely soars and takes me with it. Love it.
I loved the Flaming Lips right away. An older band that seems to be
the "sincere version" of Radiohead. I have yet to become weary of
"Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" and "The Soft Bulletin." I also
love the gentle sadism and catchy experimentation of Jim O'Rourke's
records.
-Jaime
11711
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:57am
Subject: Re: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>>> Oh come on Jaime! Why do you always take everything personally?
>
> Well, partly because I'm a paranoid loon, but partly because I think
> I'm in the same crosshairs that you and others have aimed on "those
> kids today."
I'm your age bracket too, Jaime, but (perhaps because I'm balding
young) I've never felt like I've been put in the crosshairs here. Just
because J-P and David have griped openly about Yves Saint-Laurent's
absence from the modern sartorial aesthetic doesn't establish the case
of "fogey" versus "the youth."
> Well, I was quoting a nice moment in a movie I like, so we're on
> something approaching equal terms, there. What's my problem? I
> dunno, I'm fucked in the head. For instance, I think curse words have
> their place and today I was reminded that I don't always know where
> that "place" is.
This reminds me of the exchanges of a few days ago when tempers flared
over J-P's use of the term "entertainment." All he was doing was
equating the idea of "being entertained" with "deriving a sense of
pleasurable [perhaps even ecstatic] fulfillment" from a film's
aesthetic -- and it was from there that Fred and others leapt to (what
read to me as) objections whose underlying theses were essentially the
same position that Jean-Pierre was putting forth in the first place,
but with a few slaggings against the subjective value of "plot" as
opposed to "the time-image" (quotes not indicating an actual quote,
with that one) in a film added to the mix. Here, Jean-Pierre et al
seem to be railing not against the notion of "the swear word"
altogether, but its overuse, which comes off as crude, especially as
the overuse waters down the emphatic punch that the swear-word in
question once contained. The rage (or the sharp comic jab) of a
well-placed "fuck" thus dissipates in the culture overtime, and
(although it's like tap-water already in the UK) "cunt" seems to be
next. Now, if the next generation robs us of "whoreson cur," it's time
to take off the gloves... My point is, you say above that curse words
"have their place," and unless "their place" means "incessant usage,"
which I really don't think is what you mean, it seems the two of you
agree to agree.
craig.
11712
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:00am
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> > > Oh come on Jaime! Why do you always take everything
personally?
>
> Well, partly because I'm a paranoid loon, but partly because I think
> I'm in the same crosshairs that you and others have aimed on "those
> kids today."
>
> -Jaime
I never used the phrase "those kids today" and hope I never will.
"And ain't the teenage kids getting wilder?" ("Small talk", in
The Pajama Game)
Are you a "kid"? I have no idea how old you are.
It's not a matter of age anyway. When I was 16 I listened to
Bach and Webern and Ellington and Parker.
I just thought that it would be fun to sound a bit apocalyptic
so I came up with my "Decline" spiel. I'm so old that I feel entitled.
JPC
11713
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:11am
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
>
> > Well, I was quoting a nice moment in a movie I like, so we're on
> > something approaching equal terms, there. What's my problem? I
> > dunno, I'm fucked in the head. For instance, I think curse words
have
> > their place and today I was reminded that I don't always know
where
> > that "place" is.
>
> This reminds me of the exchanges of a few days ago when tempers
flared
> over J-P's use of the term "entertainment." All he was doing was
> equating the idea of "being entertained" with "deriving a sense of
> pleasurable [perhaps even ecstatic] fulfillment" from a film's
> aesthetic -- and it was from there that Fred and others leapt to
(what
> read to me as) objections whose underlying theses were essentially
the
> same position that Jean-Pierre was putting forth in the first
place,
> but with a few slaggings against the subjective value of "plot" as
> opposed to "the time-image" (quotes not indicating an actual quote,
> with that one) in a film added to the mix. Here, Jean-Pierre et al
> seem to be railing not against the notion of "the swear word"
> altogether, but its overuse, which comes off as crude, especially
as
> the overuse waters down the emphatic punch that the swear-word in
> question once contained. The rage (or the sharp comic jab) of a
> well-placed "fuck" thus dissipates in the culture overtime, and
> (although it's like tap-water already in the UK) "cunt" seems to be
> next. Now, if the next generation robs us of "whoreson cur," it's
time
> to take off the gloves... My point is, you say above that curse
words
> "have their place," and unless "their place" means "incessant
usage,"
> which I really don't think is what you mean, it seems the two of
you
> agree to agree.
>
> craig.
Oh, how good it feels not to be misunderstood, thank you Craig.
This is exactly what I meant. And now Fred is going to jump on me for
quoting your paragraph instead of deleting it to save cyberspace.
JPC
11714
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:36am
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> Oh, how good it feels not to be misunderstood, thank you Craig.
> This is exactly what I meant. And now Fred is going to jump on me for
> quoting your paragraph instead of deleting it to save cyberspace.
> JPC
I think we essentially see eye-to-eye, too, JP, and also thank Craig.
For the record, I don't place all my resentment on you, or anyone in
particular, nor do I claim enough clear-sightedness to differentiate
at all times between what resent-worthy things are actually completely
my own darn fault, and which are not.
So, Jaime's navel-gazing comes to an end.
...For now. [Dramatic music cue]
-Jaime
11715
From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:45am
Subject: Re:senses and sensibilities (and taste) and Blade Runner
>Criterion Othello
I saw that--the one before the restoration. It's
magnificent, multiple mandolins and all. And I love
the interviews--my favorite is the Italian
cinematographer's bitchy comparison between Welles and
Visconti.
Blade Runner is probably Ridley Scott's best work (he
hasn't done much that's any good lately), and it's a
wonderful evocation of a future world, comparable to
Lang's Metropolis. But I tend to like the weary humor
and irony of the novel better--which, incidentally,
coined the word "kipple" to represent entropy.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11716
From: joey lindsey
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:50am
Subject: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review // Bush is [Costner/Reeves/a block of wood]
jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Although I tend to agree with most of what he says, I wouldn't
> exactly call his piece a review of FAHRENHEIT 9/11. What it is is a
>
What it is is a revival of Lester Bangs, and also a breath of fresh
air. It's great to see this kind of reviewing about a film! My
favorite is the review of Frida (he also speaks a great deal about
Titus, which I watched last night for the first time) all the way at the
bottom of the page.
re: Bush's moment after being told about the plane hitting the WTC... a
possibility: bad acting.
if you believe he knew it was going to happen beforehand and perhaps was
part of the planning of 9/11, that moment could be taken as Bush trying
to figure out how he 'should' be reacting, based upon the supposition
that it was 'unexpected'.
It's bad acting of the wooden/blank Kevin Costner/Keanu Reeves variety.
not to say that's what I think. What I think is that I wish I had grown
up with Ray Charles as president instead of Ronnie.
joey lindsey
11717
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:53am
Subject: continuing OT stuff about rock and pop
I have never not liked U2, except for the part of my life when I
wasn't aware of their existence. (I love them so much that even when
they give to the world one of the most repulsive and fucking retarded
pop/rock songs of all time, that pretentious GANGS OF NEW YORK theme
song, I *still* feel they were robbed at the Academy Awards.)
In recent years my focus has shifted to emphasize the wonderful
qualities of U2 albums with the worst reputations, namely "October,"
"Rattle & Hum," and "Pop." Very briefly, unless anyone wishes to
share and continue the discussion, I've come to love "If You Wear That
Velvet Dress," a recent re-discovery and a tune whose incredible
sexiness and melancholy I've only just become aware of. Several songs
from "October" are also perennial favorites of mine: "Gloria" and
"Rejoice."
And don't get me started on the two songs that *always* get me (but
that nobody seems to know about), "Lady With the Spinning Head
[Extended Dance Remix]" and "All I Want is You." Sigh.
Despite all that, I still haven't come around to feeling that "All
That You Can't Leave Behind" as a strong album, although there are
some nice moments.
-Jaime
11718
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:57am
Subject: Re: OT: Radiohead (was: Decline)
>> skipping the "germination-pains"
>> debut 'Pablo Honey' (although it does contain the excellent and
>> breakthrough 1993-mega-hit-single "Creep"),
>
> As much as I dig "Creep," I really enjoy the whole album, there are
> fewer songs that I skip than "The Bends" (although I think the great
> songs on "Bends" are greater than the great songs on "Pablo Honey").
That's very interesting -- I used to enjoy "Stop Whispering" a bit --
guess I still do. But the tracks I skip on 'The Bends' (I love each
and every song on all the albums afterward) are -- oh, well, I guess
there's only one -- "Black Star." I have to be in the right mood for
"High and Dry," "Fake Plastic Trees," and "Bulletproof..I Wish I Was."
> Is it really that unpopular? Isn't there this circle of "early
> Radiohead devotees" who are suspicious of all their recent stuff,
> starting with "Kid A," on account of (allegations follow) in the
> beginning they were a kick-ass rock & roll band and now they're just
> drowning in Thom Yorke's masturbatory whining and pointless
> experimentation?
Don't know what you're referring to as really-that-unpopular. Yes,
there are a circle of up-to-'OK Computer' devotees, but they tend to be
mentally stunted. Frankly, I don't see how if you can get your head
around 'OK Computer,' you can't around 'Kid A.' I mean, what do they
think when they hear "Climbing Up the Walls"? Also, whenever "that
lot" (usually British music critics who think Coldplay are God's gift
to human emotion and all the possibilities of songwriting) talk about
the non-verse-chorus songs as "masturbatory," or worse still,
"miserablist" -- and worse still, "experimental," I ignore them, as
it's clear they either don't have ears or the capacity for abstract
thought. I mean, one can dislike the music, but better articulation is
needed than "masturbatory," which it certainly is not. Which brings to
me to a point I might as well share, and see how others here receive it
-- I've always -despised- the term "experimental." Is it a convenient
term that's meant to hint at convey some overarchingly "abstract"
quality of an artwork? Perhaps. But I don't like using it, and
couldn't conceive of every creating anything which I'd willfully refer
to as "experimental," because the term, to my mind, conveys above and
beyond: "When we/I created this work, we were experimenting, and here
it is in a frozen, still-experimental state -- we're waiting for the
results to come in at some point." I feel like the "experimenting"
goes on during the creation of the work -- with the finished work, the
artist (and critic) should have enough confidence in the work to feel
the results are well fucking -in-. A finished artwork should be
considered an achievement -- abstract or unusual in areas, perhaps, but
those are the results. The "experiment" portion of the process
consists of the early drafts. Just my two cents, and my personal take
on the term.
Now I will share a funny Thom Yorke story.
When Radiohead came over to the US for the first leg of their 'OK
Computer' tour -- the album had just been released, I believe it was
June of 1997, and this is before they became perceived as "messiahs,"
as the reviews of the album were just starting to circulate and word of
mouth was only beginning to travel -- I went to Philadelphia with two
of my friends to see them at the Electric Factory. [Memorialized at
the beginning of Grant Gee's 'Meeting People Is Easy' documentary.] I
was 19 and, excited to meet the band who with this album had truly
become my first all-out ideal pop-musical heroes after The Beatles, got
there early and waited in the back of the venue with my friends and
some equally eager fans, listening to Thom soundcheck inside. Well,
after a while, out come Colin Greenwood, and Phil Selway, and Thom
Yorke. Very nice and down-to-earth, chatting with us, and signing our
copies of the album. Thom had on these black/black-rubber-soled
hovercraft'y-looking Swear sneakers (I love Swears to this day -- but
you can only order them from London and Portugal, although one store in
NYC had a few lackluster pairs at one point in time), and I said to
him, "You're sneakers are the best." I should stop to note at this
point I was wearing this t-shirt I had made which contained a "scanned
image" transfer, on the front and back, of the names of all of the
songs of The Beatles' White Album which I'd handwritten (I believe this
is something I had done at age 16 or 17, in a fit of teenage
awesomeness) along with one favorite lyric from each song right beneath
the names; record one on the front, record two on the back. I don't
even know why I had that shirt on on that day; the neckline had always
annoyed me. Anyway, I say to Thom: "You're sneakers are the best."
And he says: "And I really like your t-shirt!" And I say: "Yeah,
-RIGHT-." And he gives me this look that basically says (here comes
that word again): "What the fuck is wrong with you?" I had been too
nervous to perceive it as anything but a sarcastic remark, rather than
a genuine compliment. Thus concludes my Thom Yorke story.
> Personally, with the exception of "Hail to the Thief" (which I haven't
> bought yet or heard any tracks from),
You must -- it is powerful, out-there, amazing, emotional. If the
opener "2 + 2 = 5" doesn't kill you in your tracks, "Stand Down. Stand
Up." directly afterward with its "the raindrops" climax will almost
certainly not only erase your existence, but eradicate the entirety of
your personal history on Earth. Same with the trifecta in the second
half of "There There" - "I Will" (not the Beatles song) - "A Punchup at
a Wedding." Still, as a whole it's a step sideways, rather than a
massive leap forward, kind of like an 'Abbey Road' to the White Album.
(Discounting, of course, "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" and the whole
end medley.)
> With "Glass House" I get a kick out of
> the Funeral in Little Italy/Funeral in New Orleans marching band stuff
> (for lack of a better understanding of Yorke's sampling) and with "You
> and Whose Army," what initially seemed like Yorke's greatest weakness,
> the "ironic" juxtaposition of particular contemporary phrases with a
> common sell-by date (who says "you and whose army" anymore? "get off
> my case?") with against-the-grain melodies and styles, eventually
> becomes a song that genuinely soars and takes me with it. Love it.
Me too -- moved me to tears, especially the part when the trumpet part
starts to recur on the second verse, and then when he loses it at the
end with the "only, only, only -- " part before that pretty frightening
last line of "there's someone listening in..." But the "get off my
case" line is from "Packt Like Sardines in a Crushd Tin Box," not "You
and Whose Army?" -- although it's the delivery of those curt phrases
that really kills me. The line in that song which I think is brilliant
would be: "Come on / Come on / Holy Roman Empire." Probably because it
came right before everyone started to -overassociate- the term "empire"
with the current state of America -- although it rings true in quite a
few senses.
> I loved the Flaming Lips right away. An older band that seems to be
> the "sincere version" of Radiohead. I have yet to become weary of
> "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" and "The Soft Bulletin." I also
> love the gentle sadism and catchy experimentation of Jim O'Rourke's
> records.
I'm an intermitten Lips fan. The Cat Stevens copping on "Fight Test"
is too much for me, as is the part on "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots
- Part One" when he sings "To let those evil robots win" that's the
exact melody as the "Mind games forever..." part of John Lennon's song.
Beyond that, I really like "Are You a Hypnotist??" a -lot-. Also
"Race for the Prize," "The Spiderbite Song," "The Gash," and "Feeling
Yourself Disintegrate" on 'The Soft Bulletin.' Oh, and I like whenever
Wayne Coyne sings frankly-but-not-maudlin-ly about death. And while I
don't like that Wilco album, I do like Jim O'Rourke's own stuff and his
work on Sonic Youth's albums (he's officially considered "a member"
now, as of the last two records, I think).
Wondering where that 'Christmas on Mars' Flaming Lips-directed film is,
also. (Which Warner Brothers apparently funded!)
Finally, picked up Serge Gainsbourg's 'Histoire de Melody Nelson' and
'Aux armes et caetera' this past week at long long last. My early
verdict is that the latter is stupendous, and the former is one of the
greatest records I've ever heard. (A few on this list are already well
aware of these records' greatness... forewarning to expect some "what
does this word mean?" emails from me in the relatively near future.)
craig.
11719
From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:10am
Subject: Re: Kurosawa Kyoshi sense of humor
On Kyoshi's sense of humor, I thought The Cure and
Charisma showed deadpan wit, tho the black humor is
more obvious in something like Serpent's Path. Then
there's License to Live--dull on first viewing, but
funny and moving when I saw it a second time.
The one I'd like to see again is The Excitement of the
Do Re Mi Girls. It's a softcore porn film Kyoshi did
early in his career that he reworked into something
more deconstructionist, at least that's what I
thought; the tape I saw didn't have subtitles. Kind of
odd and wacky, in a Kyoshi way--the ending involved a
naked girl and a bionic dildo.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11720
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:13am
Subject: Re: continuing OT stuff about rock and pop
> I have never not liked U2, except for the part of my life when I
> wasn't aware of their existence. (I love them so much that even when
> they give to the world one of the most repulsive and fucking retarded
> pop/rock songs of all time, that pretentious GANGS OF NEW YORK theme
> song, I *still* feel they were robbed at the Academy Awards.)
I absolutely agree with the awfulness of this song, especially as
selected to be the "closing theme" for the film. (I'm not really a U2
fan -- although I do like some songs, and parts of 'Achtung Baby' and
'Zooropa' especially -- but I feel like if you like them or dislike
them, you have to agree that this "Hands That Built America" track is
just the pits.) It's embarrassing to sit through. And while I'm
-really- no admirer of Pauline Kael, I'll agree with her assessment in
that final-interview book of hers that Scorsese seems to have has lost
his ear. Take as another example the part in 'Bringing Out the Dead'
where R.E.M.'s "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" suddenly comes blaring
on -- WHAT is up with THAT?? Talk about image and sound not jibing --
this moment doesn't even succeed on an avant-garde level. (Well, no
shit.) I'll take as other examples of Marty losing his ear (although
this has cropped up even during periods when I thought he still had it)
being his frequent collaborations with Robbie Robertson and Peter
Gabriel. (Both of whom also worked on 'Gangs of New York' as well, of
course.) The soundtrack to 'The Color of Money' is really not to my
taste at all, but perhaps objectively appropriate given the pool-hall
environments; but there's no excuse for the new-age-world-fusion mess
that is the 'Last Temptation of Christ' soundtrack -- it almost
completely ruins the film, for me; in effect, nearly turns the whole
film into kitsch.
craig.
11721
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:25am
Subject: Re: Less OT Than Before
> Anyway, I say to Thom: "You're sneakers are the best."
err, "YOUR" (x2) -- Just to clarify, I didn't say, "You are sneakers
are the best" as the above would seem to imply. Tonight proof-reading
my emails apparently went out the window with the winecork. (Which
also accounts for the twenty other errant words and misphrasings in
that last post.)
To add some new discussion, instead of just gratifying my own anal
impulse to apologize for readily understandable-in-any-case syntax
slop, I saw 'Spider-Man 2' last night, and it turned out to be
surprisingly coherent and inventive for a surprising portion of the
film, which I thought was nice. Still, I missed 'Time of the Wolf.'
craig.
11722
From: joey lindsey
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:27am
Subject: Re: teen films
if i can dredge up this thread for a brief moment:
I finally remembered the name of one of my favorite teen films, which
noone seems to have heard of:
Nowhere
by Gregg Araki.
especially if you interpret some of the wacky elements (aliens, bugs) as
symbolic of how bizarre the world in general and people in particular
seem at that age.
I hated Doom Generation, which is the only thing he's done that most
people have heard of...
Donnie Darko is a favorite as well
joey lindsey
11723
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:04am
Subject: Gregg Araki( Re: teen films)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, joey lindsey wrote:
> if i can dredge up this thread for a brief moment:
>
> I finally remembered the name of one of my favorite teen films, which
> noone seems to have heard of:
> Nowhere
> by Gregg Araki.
> especially if you interpret some of the wacky elements (aliens, bugs) as
> symbolic of how bizarre the world in general and people in particular
> seem at that age.
> I hated Doom Generation, which is the only thing he's done that most
> people have heard of...
I 've seen "The Living End" and "Totally F***ed Up" and stopped after
that. I found Araki's films to be incredibly lazy and visually ugly. (I
don't care what his budget was, my freshman film class made Super8 look
like SuperPanavision and most knew where to put the camera.) He was one
of the filmmakers of questionable talent who rode on the "New Queer
Cinema" movement back in the early 90's.
I do know that Robin Wood has written about Araki in very positive
light.
Michael
11724
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:36am
Subject: Re: Decline of the American Empire
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> 1) My personal experience suggests that four-letter words reached a
peak in
> the US in the 1970's, and have generally been absent since.
Swearing seems much
> less common today than 30 years ago.
Really, Mike? I find it more prevalent than ever, although not
necessarily among the people I hang out with (although I can throw
out a string of invectives as lewd as anyone's, especially when I'm
crossing the street here in New York and a car doesn't give me the
right of way). I don't know how many times I hear "fuck" in the
course of a day, and it's generally from people engaging in regular
conversations. Standards change: In the '70s, it was considered
offensive by many to say, for example, "Yankees Suck." Now you can
buy t-shirts stating this fact at any sporting goods store in
Boston.
It's not Vern's words that I find offensive, but rather the phony
swagger that accompanies them. It's a tired and cliched style of
writing.
11725
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:38am
Subject: Re: Re: Welles interviews
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
>Thanks for such fascinating interviews, Peter. l'm still pondering
>Norman Lloyd's remark about Chaplin having brought us the immigrant--
>a profound piece of encapsulation, I think.
Thanks, Jonathan. I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the interviews.
I was fascinated by Lloyd's comments about what Welles brought to the cinema,
what Renoir brought, what Chaplin brought, and so on. His idea of Chaplin
bringing us the immigrant is a fascinating one indeed.
As a native Midwesterner, I also appreciated Lloyd's emphasizing of Welles'
and Losey's Midwestern roots!
Peter
11726
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:35am
Subject: OT: Re: Decline of the American Empire
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
>
> It's not Vern's words that I find offensive, but rather the phony
> swagger that accompanies them. It's a tired and cliched style of
> writing.
Too bad about it being tired and cliched and phony. If only it were
real and new and invigorating, we could actually pay attention to what
he's saying, since it seems as if he's scoring points that nobody else
is even paying attention to. Yeah, too bad about his off-putting style.
Yeah, too bad that the kind of dissent that's worth listening to has
to have exactly the right style to please the broken clitorises of the
official spokesmen of liberal politics, otherwise, oh fucking well,
back to the drawing board, people who are actually calling for a
different way of thinking than what we see on Fox News and so on.
I'll be goddamned, but what the Village Voice calls "WPFL" or "What
Passes For The Left" is in extremely sorry fucking shape. I tried to
communicate this by posting the link, but with no small amount of
irony it seems that people STILL reject Vern's arguments with the same
pussy arguments that he decries. Or maybe you didn't get to that
part. Thanks for inadvertantly (or, you know, not inadvertantly)
supporting the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft regime, friends and
neighbors. Sure, go ahead and blame "it" on Michael Moore and
potty-mouthed film critics. Right on.
If your dissent is any more heroic than what I, Vern, the Voice, and
everbody with a spinal cord have characterized, please speak up now
(now meaning: until the November 2004 election fraud) or forever hold
your piece of shit.
-Jaime
11727
From: Michael Brooke
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 9:38am
Subject: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:47:54 -0400
> From: Craig Keller
> Subject: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
>
>>
>> But the way the film is structured as a mystery story, without a
>> solution, is
>> really annoying. Like Twin Peaks, this really makes you work, keeping
>> track
>> of all sorts of apparent "clues". Then there is no solution, and you
>> are left
>> hanging! It is a real schuck.
>
> I had no idea 'The Return' was structured as a mystery story when I was
> watching it -- and didn't notice any clues as such either.
>
> I thought the film was a minor masterpiece.
>
>
To be fair, I can see where Mike's coming from, even though I think
he's misread the film: the deliberately elliptical approach (mysterious
phone calls, hidden objects that you can't quite make out and so on)
does look in the early stages as though it's going to build up to some
kind of climactic resolution with everything neatly tied up.
Where Mike and I disagree is that I think the moment when I realised
that the film wasn't going to go down that route and had been
attempting something far more ambitious all along is the moment when it
jumped from "fairly intriguing" to "wow!" in my estimation. I can't
wait to see it again: I'm going to try to catch another show while it's
still playing in London in cinemas with decent sound systems (the
multi-layered soundtrack complete with subterranean subwoofer rumblings
being one of the film's many pleasures).
Michael
11728
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:56am
Subject: Re: Decline of the American Empire
Swearing is rarely heard here in Detroit, or in Michigan in general.
And film audiences of all stripes tend to be polite and quiet, without the
horror stories of recent posts.
Also, we are a Blue State, and voted for Gore in 2000. Our Governor, Jennifer
Granholm, is a Democrat.
The Whistler show at the DIA was stupendous (paintings).
The Catalpa trees here have been in bloom everywhere.
Civilization!
Mike Grost
My detective short story "The Election Day Mystery" is available at:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/rose.htm
Could there ever be any real life problems with elections?
Nah!
11729
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 1:16pm
Subject: Re: Gregg Araki( Re: teen films)
--- Michael Worrall wrote:
> I 've seen "The Living End" and "Totally F***ed Up"
> and stopped after
> that. I found Araki's films to be incredibly lazy
> and visually ugly. (I
> don't care what his budget was, my freshman film
> class made Super8 look
> like SuperPanavision and most knew where to put the
> camera.) He was one
> of the filmmakers of questionable talent who rode on
> the "New Queer
> Cinema" movement back in the early 90's.
>
Not atll THAT questionable. His "Three Bewildered
People in the Night" and "The Long Weekend (o
Despair)" capture a very specifigay UCLA film school
scene quite well. Though "The Living End" is his best
known film of this period, "Totally F***ed Up" is far
superior and deals directly with the themes of the
teen films we've been discussing in a rather fresh way.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11730
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 1:23pm
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Decline of the American Empire
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
> I'll be goddamned, but what the Village Voice calls
> "WPFL" or "What
> Passes For The Left" is in extremely sorry fucking
> shape. I tried to
> communicate this by posting the link, but with no
> small amount of
> irony it seems that people STILL reject Vern's
> arguments with the same
> pussy arguments that he decries. Or maybe you
> didn't get to that
> part. Thanks for inadvertantly (or, you know, not
> inadvertantly)
> supporting the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft regime,
> friends and
> neighbors. Sure, go ahead and blame "it" on Michael
> Moore and
> potty-mouthed film critics. Right on.
>
> If your dissent is any more heroic than what I,
> Vern, the Voice, and
> everbody with a spinal cord have characterized,
> please speak up now
> (now meaning: until the November 2004 election
> fraud) or forever hold
> your piece of shit.
>
> -Jaime
>
Don'y Cheney yourself all out of shape, Jaime. Here's
Krugman to the rescue with one of the best piece on
the film yet:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/02/opinion/02KRUG.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11731
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:01pm
Subject: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
My own take on it is that it's not so much a dead-end string of
teasing "clues" as it is a series of symbolically suggestive imagery
that burns with the clarity of recollected childhood vision. It's an
amazing film that recaptures what it's like to experience the world
through a child's eyes (at least it resonates with my own childhood
visions). Things aren't explained because when you're 8 years old or
whatever, you don't understand everything you're seeing, just certan
images and moments stick in your mind and they establish a pre-
cognitive presence that plays back in a languorous rhythm of haunting
flashes.
This is also a trait possessed by that other Andrei, under whose
statuary shadow this film holds its own quite nicely.
Kevin
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Michael Brooke
wrote:
I can't
> wait to see it again: I'm going to try to catch another show while
it's
> still playing in London in cinemas with decent sound systems (the
> multi-layered soundtrack complete with subterranean subwoofer
rumblings
> being one of the film's many pleasures).
>
> Michael
This aural murk seems to be a distinctive trait among a few
contemporary Russian films I've seen. I had just been reminded of it
again when I saw FATHER AND SON, where the dialogue sounds like it
was recorded through a screen or a wall. Other Sokurov films I've
seen have this kind of gauzy audio quality, which I find utterly
fascinating (even though it may have contributed to my nodding off in
the middle of seeing both MOTHER AND SON and FATHER AND SON).
KHRUSTALIOV, MY CAR! also has this quality, though in that case I
found the claustrophobic effect (visual as well as aural) nearly
unbearable.
Kevin
11732
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
> My own take on it is that it's not so much a dead-end string of
> teasing "clues" as it is a series of symbolically suggestive imagery
> that burns with the clarity of recollected childhood vision.
I've heard other people complain about the same thing, though: that the
film presents itself as a riddle that is never solved. I like the film
a lot, myself, and that objection never occurred to me. It doesn't
really matter to me what the father is up to - the basis of the film is
the children's fantasies about him. My one objection to the film is
that it starts and ends in a rather misty, amorphous mode that I didn't
think expressed much. But, on the whole, the direction was excellent.
Zyvagintsev exhibited the kind of classical mastery that you don't often
find: the behavior was sharply drawn and psychologically accountable,
the drama was intelligently regulated, and the visuals worked in tandem
with the drama. - Dan
11733
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:21pm
Subject: OT: Re: Decline of the American Empire
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
>
>
> the broken clitorises oh fucking well,
>
>
> I'll be goddamned, in extremely sorry fucking shape.
>
pussy arguments
>
piece of shit.
>
> -Jaime
Jaime, your mother should wash your mouth out with soap.
Four-letter words won't make Bush and his gang go away. Rhetorically
they have lost all power through overuse anyway. And that's the
problem with Vern, who obviously uses them for shock effect when he
should know that they no longer shock anybody (except a few old
foggies like me and Bill Cosby). Drop all the "fuck" and "fucking"
from his article and it will come out more powerful, not less. Those
words have worked hard long enough, they should be retired, like the
rosy-fingered dawn.
JPC
11734
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:39pm
Subject: who's in Chicago?
Some lucky cinephile or cinephiles will have another opportunity
("another" because it played as recently as a few months ago) to see
Andre de Toth's magnificent DAY OF THE OUTLAW, at the Gene Siskel
Film Center. Once tonight and again Sunday afternoon.
http://www.artic.edu/webspaces/siskelfilmcenter/2004/july/westerns.ht
m
All I can say is, you lucky fuckers.
-Jaime
11735
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:45pm
Subject: Bad Words
On the Use of Bad Words in Criticism: Does anyone else apart from me find
swearing/obscenity incredibly phony and unconvincing precisely WHEN IT'S
WRITTEN? The sometimes provocative and transgressive force of obscene
language comes out of its interactive or public spontaneity; not out of the
pre-thought shock effect of being composed and inserted into a string of
written words in a sentence on a page. It's absurd and it just doesn't work
for me as a literary device. I am not against the strategic use of bad
language: I have found sometimes in public speaking and in teaching that an
unexpected obscenity, sparingly used, can really wake up the room! - and,
more importantly, get minds spinning onto another track. But in
pre-meditated writing, forget it. This is the one of the worst things about
the Internet age: people belieiving or assuming that automatic-writing is
just the same thing as speaking (or thinking aloud). And it ain't. Writing
is literary performance, an aesthetic matter, and it must be done cleverly
and well, whenever possible!! Look at Manny Farber: the guy was (is!) a
genius at mixing up all kinds of languages, some very slangy and jazzy and
colloquial along with the precisely descriptive and intellectual-analytical
- often in the same sentence! - but if his texts were peppered with random
'forceful' obscenities for shock-power effect they would fall completely
flat. And a related example: the art critic Dave Hickey, a great prose
stylist - and I noted from a doco that obscenities freely pepper his
spontaneous speech, but never his writing!!
Adrian
11736
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:54pm
Subject: Music criticism and Film criticism
Dear friends - I think we still have a lot to say and explore about the
relations/comparisons/links between music criticism and film criticism,
something that has come up in various threads these last few months. This
seems to me a majorly fascinating topic. For instance, I stumbled across the
website for THE BELIEVER that has a column by Howard Hampton, and I read an
exciting piece by him that went from GHOST WORLD to an appreciation of 80s
punk Lora Logic (who - to refer to another recent thread - is fantastic as
herself in the forgotten Wollen/Mulvey film CRYSTAL GAZING!). I am not well
acquainted with Hampton's writing, but this impressed me (of course, I am
aware of the polemics some years back between Jonathan and Kent Jones on one
side and HH on the other in the pages of ARTFORUM). It made me remember some
exciting film stuff written by predominantly music critics including Greil
Marcus and Ian Penman - where what gets opened up is this intriguing
between-film--and-music-culture space, which can carry a lot of style and
energy. And there would be probably many other examples too in many places:
Bill mentioned Olivier Assayas who has written about music, and there's
filmmaker-essayist-composer Philip Brophy in Australia whose 100 MODERN
SOUNDTRACKS book has just come out from the BFI. (Philip's current project
is to hopefully do 'live scoring' to a number of avant-garde classics.) Any
other contenders? Anyone read Eric Rohmer's recent book on (I think)
Beethoven, offering minute musical analysis??
Adrian
11737
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> On the Use of Bad Words in Criticism: Does anyone else apart from
me find
> swearing/obscenity incredibly phony and unconvincing precisely
WHEN IT'S
> WRITTEN?
Yes. But only when it's done poorly. In other cases, no.
I can't see any way around this. Maybe it's because I was in the
navy for so long, but cursing has been a natural part of my written
and spoken language for as far back as I can remember calling
myself "a writer."
I hold that there are only two settings in my life right now that
cause me to censor myself: talking to my mother, and when I'm at
work (especially when I'm talking to somebody I don't know very
well).
The opposition I'm facing here (sigh) has reiterated a few
times, "No, it's not that it offends me, but rather, it's indicative
of poor writing." Um...maybe I should just take this argument at
face value and drop the subject. Whatever. I'm tired.
-Jaime
11738
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:09pm
Subject: Marlon Brando has died
I don't have anything to say. Here's the link.
http://movies.yahoo.com/news/fc?
d=tmpl&cf=fc&in=entertainment&cat=marlon_brando
-Jaime
11739
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
An often compelling movie star -- and a truly
horrendous human being.
Brando films worth taking a look at (other than the
obvious ones) include "The Night of the Following Day"
and his last good film "The Freshman."
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> I don't have anything to say. Here's the link.
>
> http://movies.yahoo.com/news/fc?
> d=tmpl&cf=fc&in=entertainment&cat=marlon_brando
>
> -Jaime
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11740
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:19pm
Subject: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
Dan Sallitt writes:
on the whole, the direction was excellent. Zyvagintsev exhibited the kind of classical mastery that you don't often find: the behavior was sharply drawn and psychologically accountable, the drama was intelligently regulated, and the visuals worked in tandem with the drama. - Dan
>
Very good points! Plus, as many reviewers have noticed, he has a Tarkovsky like flair for poetic landscape.
SPOILERS coming:
I still was disconcerted by the riddle or mystery structure. By the end of the film, we still do not know if the man is the child's father, or some criminal imposter who is exploiting the kid; what his feelings for the child are - loving, abusive or exploitational; if he is the father, whether he abandoned the child years ago voluntarily, or not - perhaps by being sent to prison; whether the mother knows the truth, or what she feels for the man; or any explanation of the mysterious errand which is the surface structure of most of the movie.
The film has raised all of these issues again and again; presented clues to their solution, then ends without the slightest answers.
The film makes it impossible to know anything about one of the two central characters in the film, or to understand any of his actions. This is a pretty radical step.
IMHO, it generally takes a lot more creativity and imagination to construct a real mystery, with a logical, meaningful solution to its puzzle. A plot like "The Return", a mystery with no solution, is basically just a stunt. It is the easy way out...
Mike Grost
11741
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:26pm
Subject: OT: Re: Decline of the American Empire
If your attitude that effective dissent depends on bravado and
profanity is emblematic of a general attitude today than the left is
in worse shape than I had thought. I still choose to believe that
eloquence is more effective than strutting around and spouting off
curses and vulgarity. But then again maybe you and Vern know
something Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Gilbert Seldes, Michael Gold,
I.F. Stone, Michael Harrington, and Phil Ochs didn't.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
>
Thanks for inadvertantly (or, you know, not inadvertantly)
> supporting the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft regime, friends and
> neighbors. Sure, go ahead and blame "it" on Michael Moore and
> potty-mouthed film critics. Right on.
>
> If your dissent is any more heroic than what I, Vern, the Voice, and
> everbody with a spinal cord have characterized, please speak up now
> (now meaning: until the November 2004 election fraud) or forever
hold
> your piece of shit.
>
> -Jaime
11742
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
There are in fact some SPOILERS in this discussion of THE RETURN.
> By the end of the film, we still do not know if the man is
> the child's father, or some criminal imposter who is exploiting the
> kid; what his feelings for the child are - loving, abusive or
> exploitational; if he is the father, whether he abandoned the child
> years ago voluntarily, or not - perhaps by being sent to prison;
> whether the mother knows the truth, or what she feels for the man; or
> any explanation of the mysterious errand which is the surface
> structure of most of the movie. The film has raised all of these
> issues again and again; presented clues to their solution, then ends
> without the slightest answers. The film makes it impossible to know
> anything about one of the two central characters in the film, or to
> understand any of his actions. This is a pretty radical step.
Well, the children's point of view is firmly established, so that the
mysterious aspects of the father are all filtered through the children's
unknowing perspective. (I somehow never doubted that the man is the
children's real father - aren't there old pictures to verify? And
wouldn't the mother have had to be in on the imposture? - but the rest
of the stuff you mention was clearly mysterious to the kids.)
It's true that traditional storytelling style would wrap up the mystery,
even if the heart and soul of the film was about the not-knowing. So
Zyvagintsev's omission could be seen as a slightly daring reaffirmation
of the inner life of the film, which is predicated on seeing through a
glass darkly. - Dan
11743
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> An often compelling movie star -- and a truly
> horrendous human being.
>
> Brando films worth taking a look at (other than the
> obvious ones) include "The Night of the Following Day"
> and his last good film "The Freshman."
>
And of course (probably obvious) One Eyed Jacks. Malden to Brando,
who has just come back from serving a hellish prison term because of
Malden's betrayal: I bet you wondered why I never came back with
those horses, huh Kid? Brando: I guv it some thought.
But why horrendous?
11744
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:48pm
Subject: Re: One Plus One
>
> Also, Elliott Stein will be introducing the restored version of
John
> Ford's 'Gideon of Scotland Yard' in its American premiere later in
the
> month.
It already played here. It's wonderful!
11745
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:51pm
Subject: Decline of the American Empire (was: Re: brilliant FAHRENHEIT review
> Thanks, I was beginning to think I was alone ("I'll walk alone,
> because to tell you the truth I am lonely...") I feel this constant
> spewing of obscenities by everybody who thinks it's cool is part
of
> a general crumbling down of this society's standards and it fits
in
> with themes that have been discussed on this Line recently like the
> incredibly rude and vulgar behavior of movie audiences, the
> incredibly sloppy way people dress and act and generally present
> themselves, the incredibly low tastes in music and I could go on
and
> on. But I won't. Maybe someone would up and tell me: "If you don't
> like it here go back where you come from." (I've been considering
it,
> actually).
>
> JPC
Don't do it JP!
The style under discussion is largely a function of the Web, IMO,
although that doesn't excuse Cheney's recent performance on the
Senate floor.
11746
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- hotlove666 wrote:
.
>
> But why horrendous?
>
>
He treated numerous people quite badly. His family is
a 50-car pile-up on the I-5. And he drove Donald
Cammell to suicide. (granted, not all that difficult
to do considering Cammell. But the way he kept in on
the string for YEARS overa project he had no intention
of doing was horrid.)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11747
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:59pm
Subject: Re: The Return (Andrey Zvyagintsev)
> The film makes it impossible to know anything about one of the two central characters in the film, or to understand any of his actions.
It's a most artful film, but yes, I felt its art consisted largely of locking me in to the frustrating perspective of the two boys who are never given enough information to understand what's happening to them -- boring filmmaking that methodically restricts, rather than expands, the range of what the viewer can see and know. But Kevin Lee's response about "recollected childhood vision" is more interesting than mine -- maybe I've finally lost touch with my own childhood, or maybe I still resent being placed in that clueless position -- or maybe (in that theater where you have to sit in the second row to avoid the red "exit" sign) I was just too close to the screen.
SPOILER:
One thing that's especially interesting is the apparent evocation of VERTIGO in the return to the tower...
11748
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:02pm
Subject: Re: who's in Chicago? (Andre de Toth's Day of the Outlaw)
I've seen this film maybe a dozen times over the last 35 years, but
never in 35mm. I'll be there on Sunday. It is an incredible masterpiece
that would be easy to disregard if you don't "get" its style, and is de
Toth's greatest film. Were it not for "Play Dirty," it would be de
Toth's greatest by far. I've already written about it in a piece on de
Toth, linked to from my site.
Since I'm known as anti-films-on-video, I might mention that I first saw
it on TV, at 1 AM, with a friend who also liked de Toth. We knew de Toth
was great, but we didn't know how great, and were both overwhelmed. So I
guess this is a film that survives video reasonably well.
Those three landscape pans (opening, middle, and closing) would, if you
didn't love the film and "get" de Toth, look like totally ordinary shots
in the lexicon of stylistic devices in the western. But they are totally
something else, and this gets at the real mystery of great cinema:
there's no way to truly and fully explain why and how and what that
"something else" is.
"I guess every fool has his reasons" [for wanting to die] -- Jack Bruhn
(Burl Ives] introducing the film's final, almost wordless, 20 minutes of
snow.
\
- Fred C.
11749
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
I still aspire to find new phrases to insert "fucking" in the middle
of as an intensifier. My favorite swear word: "'Sblood."
By the way, JP, some footnote to Bunuel that shot by me two weeks ago
claims that "Nom de Dieu!" (used memorably in The Milky Way) really
means "I shit on God." I checked this with my ex- and she says no;
she thinks that the phrase is "Au nom de Dieu," which she never uses,
but seems to have heard that way all her life. Any truth to either
rumor? The footnote, if true, would add more humor to the moment when
the sex-hating priest in Journal d'une femme de chambre utters the
expletive after he hurts his foot trying to kick down the door of
Gramps' bedroom, when the old coot "dies with his boots."
11750
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:16pm
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
The way he kept in on
> the string for YEARS overa project he had no intention
> of doing was horrid.
Doesn't Beatty do that too? And I hear Deneuve is famous for it in
France.
To me Brando, whom I never had to deal with in person, of course,
always seemed like a lovable eccentric. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that he was a bastard in his private life, though -- I never am.
11751
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:23pm
Subject: re: Bad Words
No, Jaime, I wasn't trying to suggest that any or all writing that includes
obscene words is 'bad writing'. It's not a moral stance on my part, just an
aesthetic opinion. I'm open to the possibility that there could be good
writing that manages to find the right style for such language. I just
haven't come across it yet. Can you suggest any?
Adrian
11752
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:22pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> No, Jaime, I wasn't trying to suggest that any or all writing that
includes
> obscene words is 'bad writing'. It's not a moral stance on my
part, just an
> aesthetic opinion. I'm open to the possibility that there could be
good
> writing that manages to find the right style for such language. I
just
> haven't come across it yet. Can you suggest any?
>
> Adrian
Have you already tried and passed on Mamet?
-Jaime
11753
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I still aspire to find new phrases to insert "fucking" in the
middle
> of as an intensifier. My favorite swear word: "'Sblood."
On the TV show, "Inside the Actor's Studio" (which I know best
through Will Farrell's parody on "Saturday Night Live": "William
Robert Thornton!"), a common question is, what is your favorite
swear word. Christopher Walken thought for a moment and said -
"Darn."
-Jaime
11754
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Doesn't Beatty do that too?
He procrastinates a lot. And he's a control freak.
"McCabe and Mrs.Miller" is one of his greatest films
and greatest performances -- and he didn't get along
with Altman at all. He aims for the specific whereas
Altman sloshes around in the general.
And I hear Deneuve is
> famous for it in
> France.
>
That surpises me, as she works so much. But making
promises one can't keep isn't new toactors. The
Brando-Cammell thing involved issues that were close
to them both. Cammell put off other project after
project because Brando was always just about to come
through -- or so he thought. It truly messed up an
already messed up man.
> To me Brando, whom I never had to deal with in
> person, of course,
> always seemed like a lovable eccentric. I wouldn't
> be surprised to
> learn that he was a bastard in his private life,
> though -- I never am.
>
>
Nothing loveable about him,IMO -- save for the fact
that he neded up being the peacemaker when war broke
out between Val Kilmer and John Frankenheimer on "The
Island of Dr. Moreau."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11755
From: programming
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:30pm
Subject: Re: who's in Chicago? (Andre de Toth's Day of the Outlaw)
On 7/2/04 12:02 PM, "Fred Camper" wrote:
> I've seen this film maybe a dozen times over the last 35 years, but
> never in 35mm. I'll be there on Sunday.
Hoping to see both screenings of it.
Fred, was it shown in 16mm at the de Toth retro a few years ago?
My Sunday double feature will be a coupling of "art" followed by
"entertainment" - Day of the Outlaw then 3 Stooges (new 35mm prints). An
extremely absurd pairing (on my part - I could see the Stooges another
time), especially given recent discussions.
Patrick F.
11756
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> I still aspire to find new phrases to insert "fucking" in the middle
> of as an intensifier. My favorite swear word: "'Sblood."
>
> By the way, JP, some footnote to Bunuel that shot by me two weeks ago
> claims that "Nom de Dieu!" (used memorably in The Milky Way) really
> means "I shit on God." I checked this with my ex- and she says no;
> she thinks that the phrase is "Au nom de Dieu," which she never uses,
> but seems to have heard that way all her life. Any truth to either
> rumor?
In Spain the phrase "Me cago en dios" (I shit on god) is commonly used (not just in
the school playground -- I mean by *everyone*).
Gabe
11757
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> No, Jaime, I wasn't trying to suggest that any or all writing that
includes
> obscene words is 'bad writing'. It's not a moral stance on my
part, just an
> aesthetic opinion. I'm open to the possibility that there could be
good
> writing that manages to find the right style for such language. I
just
> haven't come across it yet. Can you suggest any?
>
> Adrian
If I could put in my two cents worth: I believe that the review or
screed of Vernon on FAHRENHEIT 9/11 is powerful and meaningful
stuff, but not as a piece of writing. I like it so much as a way of
speaking to the current American political climate that I printed it
out at my office and then took it along with me to a dinner I was
having with my friend Vanalyne Green last night to read it to her. I
only wound up reading her the opening paragraphs, but that was
enough--and she loved it too.
My point is that much "writing" on the web, including blogs and
posts like this one, is really more a form of speech than a form of
writing. And the hyperbolic use of obscenity in Vernon's effusion is
very much connected to what he wanted to say. I'd even say that it
can only make sense if one imagines it as speech. And in this case
it makes some sense, because a fair amount of Moore's film qualifies
as a kind of speech as well--I wouldn't exactly call it "writing"
when Moore concludes the film by saying, "For once we agreed."
The important thing about Vernon's statement, rhetoric and all, is
that the left has gotten so accustomed lately to being on the
defensive about anything and everything that the discourse itself
and the climate underlying it are becoming quite grotesque, and I
found that what he has to say addresses that grotesquerie quite
powerfully, even if it's also a little bent out of shape by a
certain grotesquerie of its own. He's basically trying to cut
through all the crap and intermittently getting handicapped by the
low level of the discourse. But this is very American, I think--
using excess to comment on excess. For me it works emotionally and
politically without aspiring to the usual rules of written prose by
bringing some of us a little closer to our senses. I was especially
grateful for the response to Bradbury's solipsistgic idiocy.
Gotta run--I'm about to leave for Bologna.
Jonathan
11758
From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:08pm
Subject: Pink Film Festival 2004
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/445
11759
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:27pm
Subject: Re: who's in Chicago? (Andre de Toth's Day of the Outlaw)
programming wrote:
>On 7/2/04 12:02 PM, "Fred Camper" wrote:
>
>Fred, was it shown in 16mm at the de Toth retro a few years ago?
>
>
>
Yes, 16mm. But I'm not one that thinks that with a 1.33:1 film 16mm is
necessarily all that terrible. It depends on the film, and the quality
of the print and projection.
- Fred C.
11760
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I still aspire to find new phrases to insert "fucking" in the
middle
> of as an intensifier. My favorite swear word: "'Sblood."
>
> By the way, JP, some footnote to Bunuel that shot by me two weeks
ago
> claims that "Nom de Dieu!" (used memorably in The Milky Way) really
> means "I shit on God." I checked this with my ex- and she says no;
> she thinks that the phrase is "Au nom de Dieu," which she never
uses,
> but seems to have heard that way all her life. Any truth to either
> rumor? The footnote, if true, would add more humor to the moment
when
> the sex-hating priest in Journal d'une femme de chambre utters the
> expletive after he hurts his foot trying to kick down the door of
> Gramps' bedroom, when the old coot "dies with his boots."
My favorite swear word: "Drat!"
Bill, your ex is both right and wrong. "Nom de Dieu" is short
for "Au nom de Dieu" (literally:"In the name of God"). However it is
NEVER spoken as "Au nom de Dieu" but simply as "Nom de Dieu!!!" And
it is always uttered in anger, irritation, impatience or related
feelings. It has become somewhat old-fashioned in the past few
decades. A more modern expostulation would be "Bordel de merde!"
Which brings usu to your first question. No, "Nom de Dieu" definitely
does not mean "I shit on God" -- which would be "Je chie sur Dieu" --
an interesting concept but I've never heard it.
JPC
11761
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
Ahem, here's Vern on Jonathan (sort of) - from an illuminating interview on
the CINEMAERATI site:
Q: It's clear that while you don't regard yourself as a cineaste [SIC!!!!]
you understand many elements of filmmaking. Your writing style has a raw
quality that sounds uneducated. I think if you wanted to, you could probably
write like Jonathan Rosenbaum. Is this style just a calculated decision? And
if so, how does it help draw your readers in to your world?
V: There's not some master plan, I just want to Write like me and not like
everybody else. Some people don't take me seriously because of it (good
riddance, fuckers) and other people seem to like it. To the point where
people imitating me has become a problem on some movie nerd type bulletin
board things. It's not my fault though. And I don't know who Jonathan
Rosenbloom is but I hope that was a compliment.
11762
From: Michael Brooke
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Gregg Araki( Re: teen films)
>
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Ehrenstein
> Subject: Re: Gregg Araki( Re: teen films)
>
> ---
>>
> Not atll THAT questionable. His "Three Bewildered
> People in the Night" and "The Long Weekend (o
> Despair)" capture a very specifigay UCLA film school
> scene quite well. Though "The Living End" is his best
> known film of this period, "Totally F***ed Up" is far
> superior and deals directly with the themes of the
> teen films we've been discussing in a rather fresh way.
>
>
Given the parallel discussion about four-letter expletives, I might as
well recall one of the more amusing dilemmas I was faced with as a
repertory cinema manager - how to record the title 'Totally F***ed Up'
on our recorded information line without offending what I imagine was a
reasonably significant part of our core audience (i.e. old dears who'd
come and see Cary Grant triple bills).
In the end, I think we called it 'Totally Effed Up' and hoped for the
best.
Michael
11763
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
> wrote:
> > No, Jaime, I wasn't trying to suggest that any or all writing
that
> includes
> > obscene words is 'bad writing'. It's not a moral stance on my
> part, just an
> > aesthetic opinion. I'm open to the possibility that there could
be
> good
> > writing that manages to find the right style for such language. I
> just
> > haven't come across it yet. Can you suggest any?
> >
> > Adrian
>
> Have you already tried and passed on Mamet?
>
> -Jaime
But wait a minute, Jaime, weren't we talking about the use of
four-letter words in film criticism? This whole discussion started
Re: Vern's piece on the Moore docu. I was not aware that the
discussion had drifted to the use of swear words in fiction, novels,
films, plays... which is legitimate when in character. Mamet is
indeed great at it (I love "American Buffalo"; I saw Pacino in it on
Broadway -- "I eat shit, I eat shit!"...) Although I might also add
that in films too we have had many instances of a plethora of "fuck"
and "fucking". When someone tags on "fucking" as an adjective to
every other word, it loses all power and all meaning.
So you refrain from using bad words in the presence of your
mother? Good boy. I knew she would wash out your mouth with soap if
you didn't.
JPC
11764
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:11pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> But wait a minute, Jaime, weren't we talking about the use of
> four-letter words in film criticism? This whole discussion started
> Re: Vern's piece on the Moore docu. I was not aware that the
> discussion had drifted to the use of swear words in fiction,
novels,
> films, plays... which is legitimate when in character. Mamet is
> indeed great at it (I love "American Buffalo"; I saw Pacino in it
on
> Broadway -- "I eat shit, I eat shit!"...) Although I might also
add
> that in films too we have had many instances of a plethora
of "fuck"
> and "fucking". When someone tags on "fucking" as an adjective to
> every other word, it loses all power and all meaning.
"Guys like that I like to fuck their wives."
From another Mamet play, "Sexual Perversity in Chicago," I had to do
a scene for an acting class. At one point, Danny says to
Debbie, "Fuck you." It seemed sudden and an unmotivated change in
Danny's mood. I don't remember how Rob Lowe said it or if he pulled
it off, but I had a hard time figuring it out. But then again, I'm
a pretty terrible actor. (Logically someone will follow that up
with a jab at Lowe, but I think he's good at times.)
But back to the discussion - I thought we had broadened our exchange
to include writing in general. "Good swearing" *is* rare, even
rarer than ordinary simple "good writing," in my experience.
In any case I'd name Vern, but we've crossed that bridge. David
Foster Wallace isn't a film critic but when he writes about movies
he's as strong as I think he usually is...he doesn't swear *a lot*
but...I lost my train of thought there.
> So you refrain from using bad words in the presence of your
> mother? Good boy. I knew she would wash out your mouth with soap
if
> you didn't.
I doubt it, on account of the fact that she's a head and a half
shorter than me and I lift weights and stuff. She's what you'd call
spry, especially since she's all done with the radiation, but I'm
pretty sure I could take her.
Actually, I'd probably run if I saw her whip out the soap. I talk
big but I'm not into the whole physical altercation thing.
-Jaime
11765
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
"Nothing loveable about him,IMO -- save for the fact
that he neded up being the peacemaker when war broke
out between Val Kilmer and John Frankenheimer on 'The
Island of Dr. Moreau.'
I feel compelled to share this one story about Marlon Brando. My
significant other's aunt Miiko Taka worked opposite him in SAYONARA,
and while she was a professional singer she didn't have much acting
experience. Miiko said he was very patience with her and coached her
in a few scenes. Many years later he made a condolence phonecall to
her at the time of her daughter's suicide (this was about 10 years
before his own family tragedies) after reading about it in the
papers.
Also, he seems to have been liked more by people of color than white
people; that was something I noticed on the "Biography" tv show's
episode about him. Russell Means, Dick Gregory and Delores Huerta
all had good things to say about him, while the white interviewees
like Peter Manso were very harsh. Incidently, just about everything
Manso said about Miiko in his Brando biography was wrong.
Richard
11766
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:15pm
Subject: Re: Welles interviews
Peter, I think all cineastes owe you a debt of gratitude for your two
interviews for they help further illuminate the endlessly fascinating
person who was Orson Welles.
I love the image that Mike Caveney presents of Welles as student, the
young magicians the teachers: it proves again that the truly wise
know that -- no matter what their age -- they can continue to learn
from the young. The anecdote regarding the broken fish bowl and the
wrong Albert in the audience is a gem. But perhaps the most redolent
image is of Welles home alone with Oja because friends and admirers
were hesitant to call him.
It's great how articulate Norman Lloyd continues to be at age 89. I
especially appreciate how you got him to detail Welles's technique as
a theatrical director. I also love how Lloyd equates Renoir with
France, and since Joseph Cotten is one of my very favorite actors
(and a highly inder-rated one),it was good to read that he was
Welles's best friend and "a rare and beautiful person" -- that
quality comes through in much of his screen work.
11767
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:30pm
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- hotlove666 wrote:
> .
> >
> > But why horrendous?
> >
> >
> He treated numerous people quite badly. His family is
> a 50-car pile-up on the I-5. And he drove Donald
> Cammell to suicide. (granted, not all that difficult
> to do considering Cammell. But the way he kept in on
> the string for YEARS overa project he had no intention
> of doing was horrid.)
He also stole Glenn Ford's cookies from his dressing room during the
filming of Teahouse of the August Moon.
11768
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:36pm
Subject: Mamet (was: Mamet)
On the IMDb there's a listing for an upcoming David Mamet film
(directing and writing), to star Will Ferrell. The title is JOAN OF
BARK: THE DOG THAT SAVED FRANCE. I don't know if it's a joke. The
IMDb sometimes has weird stuff. Guy Maddin is listed as the co-
director of the recent TV-movie biopic about the guy who started the
Crips.
I'm posting so much today (and yesterday, and the day before)
because I'm the only one left in the office, I have to stay until
five, and I'm bored out of my skull. It should come as no surprise
that I'm fed up with surfing the internet.
Of all people, Jesse Jackson said something funny the other day:
"I am on a low-CARB diet: No Cheney, no Ashcroft, no Rumsfeld, no
Bush and very little Rice."
-Jaime
11769
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Marlon Brando has died
--- Damien Bona wrote:
>
>
> He also stole Glenn Ford's cookies from his dressing
> room during the
> filming of Teahouse of the August Moon.
>
>
A hanging offense.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11770
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Mamet (was: Mamet)
Then there's the old joke:
A beggar on the street asks a well-heeled woman for a quarter.
"'Neither a lender nor a borrower be' -- Shakespeare," she
admonishes.
Responds he: "'Fuck you, you fucking fuck' -- Mamet."
11771
From: Dave Garrett
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> > By the way, JP, some footnote to Bunuel that shot by me two weeks ago
> > claims that "Nom de Dieu!" (used memorably in The Milky Way) really
> > means "I shit on God." I checked this with my ex- and she says no;
> > she thinks that the phrase is "Au nom de Dieu," which she never uses,
> > but seems to have heard that way all her life. Any truth to either
> > rumor?
>
> In Spain the phrase "Me cago en dios" (I shit on god) is commonly used (not just in
> the school playground -- I mean by *everyone*).
Indeed, as well as the tamer euphemism "Me cago
en diez" (I shit on ten) for those who occasionally
wish to avoid taking God's name in vain.
And there's also the Catalan variant "Mecagum Deu",
the full version of which exemplifies the peculiarly
Latin tension between extreme piety and extreme
blasphemy - see Cecil Adams' explication of this one
in an old Straight Dope column:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_238.html
Dave "Godfrey Daniels"
11772
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:09pm
Subject: Gregg Araki( Re: teen films)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein w
> Not atll THAT questionable. His "Three Bewildered
> People in the Night" and "The Long Weekend (o
> Despair)" capture a very specifigay UCLA film school
> scene quite well. Though "The Living End" is his best
> known film of this period, "Totally F***ed Up" is far
> superior and deals directly with the themes of the
> teen films we've been discussing in a rather fresh way.
For me, the most essential component of film is style: the level in
which a filmmaker uses the tools of filmmaking-- be it camera movement
and placement, editing, lighting, use of sound both onscreen and off--
and this takes precedence over acting, narrative, social / political
meaning, or other areas of content. Content is shaped and enriched by
style and form. Therefore, even if a film or filmmaker may have some
significance in a political/social/sexual arena, if it is not a well
made film I cannot really consider it true cinema. Good politics does
not necessarily make good art and bad politics does not necessarily
make bad art.
Arraki's films may have some value in the fact that they take on an
active queer voice in the cinema, but the rudimentary / impoverished
filmmaking on display in "The Living End" and "Totally F***ed Up" keep
me from considering them cinema. It may be true that Arraki has
matured as a filmmaker, but the flat, static and aesthetically ugly
qualities of his earlier films --including his clumsy references to
Godard-- has kept me away.
Michael
11773
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:13pm
Subject: Gregg Araki (correction)
---
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein w
> > Not atll THAT questionable. His "Three Bewildered
> > People in the Night" and "The Long Weekend (o
> > Despair)" capture a very specifigay UCLA film school
> > scene quite well. Though "The Living End" is his best
> > known film of this period, "Totally F***ed Up" is far
> > superior and deals directly with the themes of the
> > teen films we've been discussing in a rather fresh way.
>
For me, the most essential component of film is style: the level in
which a filmmaker uses the tools of filmmaking-- be it camera movement
and placement, editing, lighting, use of sound both onscreen and off--
and this takes precedence over acting, narrative, social / political
meaning, or other areas of content. Content is shaped and enriched by
style and form. Therefore, even if a film or filmmaker may have some
significance in a political/social/sexual arena, if it is not a well
made film I cannot really consider it true cinema. Good politics does
not necessarily make good art and bad politics does not necessarily
make bad art.
Araki's films may have some value in the fact that they take on an
active queer voice in the cinema, but the rudimentary / impoverished
filmmaking on display in "The Living End" and "Totally F***ed Up" keep
me from considering them cinema. It may be true that Araki has matured
as a filmmaker, but the flat, static and aesthetically ugly qualities
of his earlier films --including his clumsy references to Godard-- has
kept me away.
Michael
11774
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:22pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
JPC, then Jaime:
>
> > But wait a minute, Jaime, weren't we talking about the use
of
> > four-letter words in film criticism? This whole discussion
started
> > Re: Vern's piece on the Moore docu. I was not aware that the
> > discussion had drifted to the use of swear words in fiction,
> novels,
> > films, plays... which is legitimate when in character.
>
> But back to the discussion - I thought we had broadened our
exchange
> to include writing in general. "Good swearing" *is* rare, even
> rarer than ordinary simple "good writing," in my experience.
>
> In any case I'd name Vern, but we've crossed that bridge. David
> Foster Wallace isn't a film critic but when he writes about movies
> he's as strong as I think he usually is...he doesn't swear *a lot*
> but...I lost my train of thought there.
>
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: VERN IS NOT A REAL
PERSON. THERE IS NO ACTUAL EX-CON/FILM CRITIC OUT THERE NAMED VERN
WHO HAS A WEBSITE. He is the online persona of another film
buff/critic, whose name I will NOT give (this being a public board),
but who also has his own persona and critical voice. I guess Vern is
sort of the testosterone-fueled online version of Libby Gelman-
Waxner. (I'm not proud of this comparison, by the way.)
But this guy's sheer devotion to the Vern persona/character (he's
had it for years, and people I know who have corresponded with him
say that he even keeps the two personae distinct in private
exchange) has raised the Vern thing to the level of performance art.
Performance art as film criticism. Of a foul-mouthed,
conversational, and at times very funny sort. I consider it/him
fascinating. I love the guy's reviews. If there is enough space in
the world of film criticism for stuff like "de-reification"
and "technocratic simulacra" then there is some room for "fucking
retards" as well. Call it "the return of the repressed" if it makes
it more palatable for you.
-Bilge
11775
From: Nick
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bad Words
> But this guy's sheer devotion to the Vern persona/character (he's
> had it for years, and people I know who have corresponded with him
> say that he even keeps the two personae distinct in private
> exchange)
Who'da thunk Ebert had that much spunk! :)
-Nick Wrigley>-
11776
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:57pm
Subject: Unbowed (Nanci Rossov)
"Unbowed" (Nanci Rossov, 2000) is a low budget feature film. It was shown
last night on the American TV Cable channel, The Western Channel (the same folks
who are planning the Sam Peckinpah tribute with "The Westerner" this month).
"Unbowed" may or may not be a Western in the strict sense. It might be more
of a historical drama, and is somewhat play-like. The male lead IS a Native
American, and the story does take place in the 1800's. I had never heard of it,
before finding it by accident on TV.
"Unbowed" is a pleasant film, and quite professional for an only-time
director like Ms. Rossov. The tale could be a bit more upbeat, and have more
narrative drive. The photography is excellent. The film utterly lacks any experimental
or avant garde qualities. It has plenty of unfamiliar subject matter, however.
Please watch for it!
Mike Grost
11777
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 1:32am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ebiri@a... wrote:
> >
>
>
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: VERN IS NOT A REAL
> PERSON. THERE IS NO ACTUAL EX-CON/FILM CRITIC OUT THERE NAMED VERN
> WHO HAS A WEBSITE. He is the online persona of another film
> buff/critic, whose name I will NOT give (this being a public
board),
> but who also has his own persona and critical voice. I guess Vern
is
> sort of the testosterone-fueled online version of Libby Gelman-
> Waxner. (I'm not proud of this comparison, by the way.)
>
This makes no sense at all. So Vern is a pseudonym for someone
else. That does NOT make him "NOT A REAL PERSON". Lots of people
(including myself!) have multiple personalities on line. I would
assume he uses this other personality to say things he really thinks
and wants to communicate, so who cares whether he is Vern or Tab or
Butch or Daisy or whatever? This has nothing to do with what we were
discussing.
JPC
11778
From:
Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:17pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words (OT)
The heavy use of expletives in speech is an armed forces thing. Was not
surprised when Jaime said he acquired it in the Navy.
My father told me all about this - it was common in the service in World War
II. When one of his friends went back home after getting out of the service in
1945, his saintly mother cooked him a big family dinner. All went well at the
table, with all the relatives gathered round, till the friend asked, "Please
pass the @*&%^$#*^+#$% butter!"
Novelists, filmmakers and comics people have always had a hard time with
this. Any realistic account of how servicemen speak would be pretty profane by
most standards. Sarge is always doing comic strip style #@*&%^$ swearing in
"Beetle Bailey". Most filmmakers have ben lower key.
Mike Grost
who loved it when Bruce Willis used to say "Land of Goshen!" on
"Moonlighting".
11779
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:27am
Subject: Marquees and Bad Words (was Gregg Araki( Re: teen films))
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Michael Brooke
> Given the parallel discussion about four-letter expletives, I might as
> well recall one of the more amusing dilemmas I was faced with as a
> repertory cinema manager - how to record the title 'Totally F***ed Up'
> on our recorded information line without offending what I imagine was a
> reasonably significant part of our core audience (i.e. old dears who'd
> come and see Cary Grant triple bills).
>
> In the end, I think we called it 'Totally Effed Up' and hoped for the
> best.
>
> Michael
When Ken Russell's "Whore" was released theatrically in 1992, the
local multi-plex advertised the film as "feature" on their marquee.
The R rated video version of "Whore", probably the one at Blockbuster,
is titled: "If You Can't Say It, Just See It."
11780
From:
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:42am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
> >
>
> This makes no sense at all. So Vern is a pseudonym for someone
> else. That does NOT make him "NOT A REAL PERSON". Lots of people
> (including myself!) have multiple personalities on line. I would
> assume he uses this other personality to say things he really
thinks
> and wants to communicate, so who cares whether he is Vern or Tab
or
> Butch or Daisy or whatever? This has nothing to do with what we
were
> discussing.
>
It has everything to do with what you were discussing. You
specifically made the point (at least, I think it was you) that
swearing works in fiction in a way that it does not in non-fiction.
Vern is not just a pseudonym. The whole construct (look at the site,
look at his bio, about being a former alcoholic ex-con) is a
fiction. Yes, it's *also* film criticism -- a non-fictional pursuit.
Do I think most of the opinions expressed are genuine? Sure. I
happen to think this character blends fiction and criticism in an
interesting, often hilarious way (think Lenny Bruce). The problem
is that the guy who created Vern has become obsessed (and rightfully
so) with politics as of late, so his F911 review doesn't blur the
line as playfully as some of his other, earlier reviews do. (I am on
record as telling Jaime he was sort of nuts for posting that review
on this particular board.)
-Bilge
11781
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:00am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ebiri@a... wrote:
> It has everything to do with what you were discussing. You
> specifically made the point (at least, I think it was you) that
> swearing works in fiction in a way that it does not in non-fiction.
> Vern is not just a pseudonym. The whole construct (look at the site,
> look at his bio, about being a former alcoholic ex-con) is a
> fiction. Yes, it's *also* film criticism -- a non-fictional pursuit.
> Do I think most of the opinions expressed are genuine? Sure. I
> happen to think this character blends fiction and criticism in an
> interesting, often hilarious way (think Lenny Bruce). The problem
> is that the guy who created Vern has become obsessed (and rightfully
> so) with politics as of late, so his F911 review doesn't blur the
> line as playfully as some of his other, earlier reviews do. (I am on
> record as telling Jaime he was sort of nuts for posting that review
> on this particular board.)
Yes, perhaps it *has* become necessary of late to become obsessed with
politics. You say "rightfully so," but you hesitate - because the
FAHRENHEIT 9/11 review draws better contours around Vern's subject
than Vern himself. But (and this may be why you think I am sort of
nuts) I don't see this as a or "the" problem, nor do I think it's even
true that he tells the truth of his subject at the expense of personal
truth.
-Jaime
11782
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:35am
Subject: Re: Marlon Brando has died
He didn't really make peace between Kilmer and Frankenheimer -- I
heard from Joe Dante that he went up to Frankenheimer on a break and
muttered, "Let's have Val killed." Kilmer seems to have decided he
was Brando on Moreau, so Brando was relieved of the role: all
described him as sweetness and light. He bonded touchingly with the
little person who played the Mole Man (a character New Line, big
loser on Moreau, amortized by adding Mini Me to the Powers franchise:
cf. the wonderful "twin pianos" scene). I was in Kinko's making a
diskette of my presskit (which ended up communicating a virus that
crashed New Line's computer network), and there was a guy next to me
who'd done CGI work on Moreau, at a time when it was new. He had been
asked to erase Brando's VPL.
And lest we forget what an eloquent cuss he was:
I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a brick wall to
remain true to myself,
I will do it.
Hollywood is ruled by fear and love of money. But it can't rule me
because I'm not afraid of anything and I don't love money.
I don't think the film [The Godfather] is about the Mafia at all. I
think it is about the corporate mind. In a way, the Mafia is the best
example of capitalists we have.
Acting is the expression of a neurotic impulse. It's a bum's life.
Quitting acting is a sign of maturity.
An actor's a guy who, if you ain't talking about him, ain't
listening.
I don't mind that I'm fat. You still get the same money.
[Frank Sinatra] He's the kind of guy that when he dies, he's going up
to heaven and give God a bad time for making him bald.
I get excited about something, but it never lasts longer than seven
minutes. Seven minutes exactly. That's my limit.
I don't think it's the nature of any man to be monogamous. Men are
propelled by genetically ordained impulses over which they have no
control to distribute their seed.
If you're successful, acting is about as soft a job as anybody could
ever wish for. But if you're unsuccessful, it's worse than having a
skin disease.
I have eyes like those of a dead pig.
If there's anything unsettling to the stomach, it's watching actors
on television talk about their personal lives.
Privacy is not something that I'm merely entitled to, it's an
absolute prerequisite.
The only reason I'm in Hollywood is that I don't have the moral
courage to refuse the money.
To grasp the full significance of life is the actor's duty, to
interpret it is his problem, and to express it his dedication.
To me, fair friend, you never can be old. For as you were when first
your eye I eyed. Such seems your beauty still.
Kowalski was always right, and never afraid. And he had the kind of
brutal aggressiveness that I hate. I'm afraid of it. I detest the
character.
If we are not our brother's keeper, at least let us not be his
executioner.
Last Tango in Paris required a lot of emotional arm wrestling with
myself, and when it was finished, I decided that I wasn't ever again
going to destroy myself emotionally to make a movie.
I don't want to spread the peanut butter of my personality on the
moldy bread of the commercial press.
And In The Words Of Others ..
Certainly, he's eccentric, it's no secret that he's as mad as a
hatter.
- David Thewlis
He gave us our freedom.
- Jack Nicholson
He's the most keenly aware, the most empathetical human being alive.
He just knows ... If you left the room, he could be you.
- Stella Adler
Brando is the best, the actor that we all look up to. When he goes,
the rest of us move up one place.
- Jack Nicholson
Marlon Brando. The finest actor who ever lived. He was my idol when I
was 13. He's done enough work to last two lifetimes. Everything I do,
I think: Can Brando play this with me?
- Barbra Streisand
It was incomprehensible how good Brando was. He was just a
phenomenon. I was acting before I ever saw a Brando picture -- I'm
very proud to be able to say that -- but I'll be imitating him until
the day I die.
- Al Pacino
I taught him nothing. I opened up possibilities of thinking, feeling,
experience, and I opened the doors He never needed me after that.
- Stella Adler
Anything you do that may not be true shows up immediately as false
with him. He yanks you into his own sense of reality.
- Kim Hunter
11783
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:36am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
>
> In Spain the phrase "Me cago en dios" (I shit on god) is commonly
used (not just in
> the school playground -- I mean by *everyone*).
>
> Gabe
Also, I'm told, "I bugger Christ!" (Don't know the Spanish.)
11784
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:39am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
A more modern expostulation would be "Bordel de merde!"
Vero taught me that one - I love it!
11785
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:42am
Subject: Re: Bad Words
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick wrote:
> > But this guy's sheer devotion to the Vern persona/character (he's
> > had it for years, and people I know who have corresponded with
him
> > say that he even keeps the two personae distinct in private
> > exchange)
>
>
> Who'da thunk Ebert had that much spunk! :)
>
> -Nick Wrigley>-
Really??
11786
From:
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 9:30am
Subject: Paul Krugman (OT)
Thanks to David Ehrenstein for posting the Paul Krugman link.
Paul Krugman is one of my heroes. He is a forthright, highly intelligent
liberal voice, who has spoken up courageously against George W,. Bush and his lies
throughout all of the last four years. If we had more people like Paul
Krugman, who placed honesty above fear and kow-towing to the Bushites, our country
would be in much better shape.
Mike Grost
A liberal and life-long Democrat in Michigan, USA
11787
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Paul Krugman (OT)
You're welcome.
Krugman is the biggest "mistake" the Times has made in
recent years. He was hired to write about economic
issues in the wake of the Clinton boom. But when
BushCo. destroyed the economy he went on to explain
how and why -- and in the process emerged as the most
important TRULY liberal columnist of our time.
In order to combat this the Times hired David Brooks
-- who's far more in keeping with its right-wing
agenda.
But Brooks while a slick writer is a poor thinker.
Almost as poor as Nicholas Kristoff.
But we've wandered far afield from even an OT item.
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Thanks to David Ehrenstein for posting the Paul
> Krugman link.
> Paul Krugman is one of my heroes. He is a
> forthright, highly intelligent
> liberal voice, who has spoken up courageously
> against George W,. Bush and his lies
> throughout all of the last four years. If we had
> more people like Paul
> Krugman, who placed honesty above fear and
> kow-towing to the Bushites, our country
> would be in much better shape.
>
> Mike Grost
> A liberal and life-long Democrat in Michigan, USA
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11788
From:
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:25pm
Subject: re: F911
Hey gang:
sorry for stirring the pot and then dropping out for a day -- some
days I'm in front of the computer all day, sometimes I barely get
near the darn thing. A couple quick hits and miscellaneous
observations:
Jaime wrote:
> > To my eyes, Moore pulls his real punches: F9/11 hints at a much
>> broader criqitue of the American class system than the movie is
>> ultimately willing to engage, because that would be to admit that
>GWB
>> is only a symptom of the problem, and not its root.
>
>But are those his real punches, or yours? There's a way to
>articulate "the b.s. of the American class system" in such a way
>that it's recognizable to the greatest number of people in the
>audience, and I think this is Moore's bread and butter:
>popularizing a thing or tapping into pre-existing popular notions.
>(Probably more the latter.) He doesn't strike me as the Howard Zinn
>type, if that's what you're getting at.
>
>-Jaime
See, my suspicion is that Moore -- the former Mother Jones and
alternative weekly editor -- is exactly the "Howard Zinn type", or at
least shares a lot of his big-picture beliefs. But Moore also has an
understanding of what works with a crowd, and how best to reach a
mass audience. When it comes to a choice between phrasing his
arguments in a way that "plays" and a way that conveys greater
nuance, he'll choose the former every time. Of course, that's what
makes Michael Moore Michael Moore -- those whooping crowds of college
students that turn out for his live appearances are not the bike
couriers and aging lefties who turn out to see Zinn. (Yes, I'm being
reductive, and having a bit of fun.) I don't think Moore need succumb
to the vice of the American left and footnote himself into oblivion.
(That's for others: As Ray Pride said, "Let a thousand footnotes
bloom.") But I do believe that F911 is strongest when it strays from
cookie-cutter Bush-bashing and lets the people Moore's supposedly so
fond of speak. Everyone I've talked to who's seen the film (which,
unfortunately, only includes people who were voting Dem in the fall
anyway) feels that the last third of the film, with Lila Lipscomb and
the American soldiers, is by far the strongest, and I definitely
agree.
I think what sticks in my craw, particularly re: the critical
response to the movie, is the "you must see this movie" stuff, which
strays awfully close to the Weinstein brothers' claim that "If you
have not seen this movie, you are not part of the American
discussion." Even with my moderate media intake, I'd seen virtually
everything in the movie -- including "My Pet Goat" -- before, so the
idea that Moore has unearthed a trove of hidden information is simply
lazy reporting. (I learned a lot more from CONTROL ROOM.) Yes,
Americans should "see this movie!" But they should also read a
fucking newspaper once in a while -- maybe even one (shock! horror!)
originating from another country. People like Paul Krugman will
regularly talk about stories that "the media doesn't cover" even
though they're regularly reported in the newspapers; what he really
means, if you press him on the point, is that they're not on TV. One
of the reasons the TV networks have hauled out the big guns to go
after Moore's supposed inaccuracies (in the process making numerous
errors themselves) is that as much as F911 goes after Bush, it's an
at least equally damning condemnation of the unbelievable servility
of the American media, print as well as television. But you can't
vote the media out of office, so that element, like the film's class
critique, has been substantially underrecognized. Michael Moore says
the movie's purpose is to unseat Bush, so if you want Bush out, you
gotta love the film. Likewise, if you don't love it, you must
apparently be some sort of closet fascist (see below).
David E. wrote:
At 12:01 AM +0000 7/2/04, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>No it's because it's only one film. Why run all over
>the map?
Not according to Moore, or many reviews. It's your quick-fix,
one-stop, one-size-fits-all Rough Guide to the Bush Administration,
complete with make-your-own stick figures.
>Had he done what you're suggesting you'd attack him
>for lack of clarity.
This assertion is based on nothing and so doesn't need refuting, but
I'd point out that I'm on record praising Bowling for Columbine for
its "all over the map" quality. The movie would have been a lot more
insufferable had Moore actually known what he wanted to say.
>Admit it: you can't stand the fact that you've been
>hoodwinkewd. You don't want to believe just how
>CRIMINAL America has become under BushCo.
"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
>We now know what it was like to live under Third
>Reich.
Godwin's law, anyone? When the fascists come, what will you say then?
>And now you're going to go all Nicholas Kristoff on me
>-- right Sam?
>
No, more like all Joseph Welch. Where do you get off assuming that
because I have criticisms of the movie, I don't accept that Bush etc.
have "hoodwinkewd" the nation? Is there only one way to hate Bush?
And if I don't hew to the party line, am I in bed with the enemy? The
Bush admin is the most openly corrupt since Nixon's and arguably
before -- but it's the more the openness that distinguishes it than
the corruption. Every politician achieves office by laying down with
corporate bedfellows, but it takes a special kind of contempt for the
American public (and "the filter") to leave your tracks uncovered.
Nice pair of F911 reviews from CITY PAGES:
http://www.citypages.com/databank/25/1230/print12263.asp
Sam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11789
From:
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:37pm
Subject: Re: Bad Words
Profanity is the pepper in the linguistic stew: a vital ingredient,
but not to be overused. and in print, however colloquial, it rarely
has any force (mostly cos you can't hear those plosive consonants
going off like fireworks). I'll use it once in a while (see last
post) but the more I write, the less useful it seems. Speechwise, on
the other hand, I've been accused of talking like a sailor on quite a
few occasions. Wouldn't want to put my command of the lingo up
against Jaime's, however.
Sam
11790
From:
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:48pm
Subject: re: That's "Entertainment"
I don't know how I missed this discussion the first time around, but
it's another of my pet subjects, so forgive the kibitzing. I'm with
the "entertainment" crowd on this one, provided you define the term
as broadly as possible. I'm entertained, or at least fulfilled, by
movies that a lot of people label "depressing" (one of the more
noxious anti-intellectual terms in wide circulation), but I also find
movies that are meant to impress you with their ability to wallow in
shit not worth much contemplation. (Not to beat a dead DOGVILLE.)
Conversely -- and here I ally myself with the dreaded General Kael --
I feel that if a movie gives you intense enjoyment, however
ostensibly lightweight it might be, you owe it some serious
contemplation, or at least a tip of the cap. ANCHORMAN is, to be
sure, not the most thought-provoking movie I've seen all year, but I
was literally weeping with laughter at multiple points, a sensation
worth seeking out at least as much as the feeling that the inside of
your skull has been scoured with a dentist's drill. Memo to self: put
more thought into auteurist consideration of the Will Ferrell oeuvre.
Sam
Craig wrote:
> This reminds me of the exchanges of a few days ago when tempers flared
> over J-P's use of the term "entertainment." All he was doing was
> equating the idea of "being entertained" with "deriving a sense of
> pleasurable [perhaps even ecstatic] fulfillment" from a film's
> aesthetic -- and it was from there that Fred and others leapt to (what
> read to me as) objections whose underlying theses were essentially the
> same position that Jean-Pierre was putting forth in the first place,
> but with a few slaggings against the subjective value of "plot" as
> opposed to "the time-image" (quotes not indicating an actual quote,
> with that one) in a film added to the mix.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11791
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:28pm
Subject: Re: re: Bad Words
henry miller?
deleuze and guattari?
william burroughs?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Martin"
To: "A Film By"
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:23 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] re: Bad Words
> No, Jaime, I wasn't trying to suggest that any or all writing that
includes
> obscene words is 'bad writing'. It's not a moral stance on my part, just
an
> aesthetic opinion. I'm open to the possibility that there could be good
> writing that manages to find the right style for such language. I just
> haven't come across it yet. Can you suggest any?
>
> Adrian
11792
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
they already did. the whole ensemble cahiers-libé-inrocks, in fact.
I'm not an huge admirer of Frodon, but his piece on F911 having won the
palme d'or is great. #591
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No
Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
> Thanks for the Klawans review, Kevin -- Stewart is a very good film
> critic, and I too rarely get to read him. I fear CdC will probably
> trounce F911.
11793
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
> Do you think it's that they are taken the cue given by JL GODard's
> comments during Cannes?
No, they had already hated Columbine. Former Cahiers critic Jean-Sebastien
Chauvin has a weblog and one of his first posts sets a new standard for best
Moore criticism (but I haven't yet seen F911 or read what american critics
had to say about it). the link is http://image.kaywa.com Also former
Cahiers-critic Patrice Blouin held a controversy by the time with (I guess)
Serge Kaganski and loathed the film on Les Inrockuptibles.
Still, there's a difference of reception, don't you think? In Brazil and in
France people know how fascist this country is, and they (we) are given the
reverse shot of the war. Also, everyone who attends arthouse theaters or is
interested in world politics is anti-Bush. That's a good point of Frodon's
article: outside the US, the film only preaches to the already converted.
> Among the many things that bugged me about Armond White's essay
> (linked here for your reference:
> http://www.nypress.com/17/25/film/ArmondWhite.cfm) is his referencing
> Godard to declaim Moore: "Moore doesn't distinguish between text and
> image. He doesn't know what he's doing." If I've learned anything
> from watching JLG's films, it's that text often IS image and vice
> versa. I think if there's an objection to make about Moore's film,
> it's not about image vs. text, but context.
For both the image is evidence. But if you don't get the difference of HOW
they mean evidence for each one, I wouldn't be able to help you (or anyone,
for any matter).
> It's become fashionable among certain self-consciously conscientious
> liberals to trounce Moore's film and its liberal supporters on
> certain moral, aesthetic or political grounds. I think they have
> legitimate reservations that are worth making, but I can't help but
> think that they are being as reactionary as they accuse Moore of
> being.
How?
11794
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 1:50am
Subject: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
outside the US, the film only preaches to the already converted.
>
Well, yes and no, since all those French left-wingers hate the
film and Moore in general. (they have to hate him because he is a
demagogue and a crowd-pleaser -- even though we're talking about
rather small crowds).
> > It's become fashionable among certain self-consciously
conscientious
> > liberals to trounce Moore's film and its liberal supporters on
> > certain moral, aesthetic or political grounds. I think they have
> > legitimate reservations that are worth making, but I can't help
but
> > think that they are being as reactionary as they accuse Moore of
> > being.
>
> How?
They are reactionary in a different way. They're saying: "Oh, we
know all about that, but Moore is being so crude (so "American") in
the way he deals with the issues. Now if Godard tackled the same
issues it would be so different.."
11795
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 1:59am
Subject: Re: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
> Well, yes and no, since all those French left-wingers hate the
> film and Moore in general. (they have to hate him because he is a
> demagogue and a crowd-pleaser -- even though we're talking about
> rather small crowds).
It's more cinephiles than left-wingers, I guess.
> > > It's become fashionable among certain self-consciously
> conscientious
> > > liberals to trounce Moore's film and its liberal supporters on
> > > certain moral, aesthetic or political grounds.
> They are reactionary in a different way. They're saying: "Oh, we
> know all about that, but Moore is being so crude (so "American") in
> the way he deals with the issues. Now if Godard tackled the same
> issues it would be so different.."
That's contextual or author-ly ground. There's nothing moral, aesthetic or
political about it. Or am I being blind?
11796
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 2:26am
Subject: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
>
> It's more cinephiles than left-wingers, I guess.
>
You can't separate the two, especially dealing with this kind of
film. Obviously all those guys (the cahiers/Libe/Le Monde/Inrock
crowd) are left-leaning at the very least -- and what they hate in
Moore is a demagogue approach that uncomfortably reminds them of
French right-wing crowd pleasers Poujade back in the fifties/sixties,
Le Pen more recently.
11797
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 2:37am
Subject: Re: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
Think I can, JP, and this quest could be searched within Les Inrockuptibles'
staff... While the general feeling of the writers, and mainly the ones that
sign articles for the AGIT-POP section, was of high regard for COLUMBINE,
and the movie critics liked it, but in a more nuanced way. So should we
restrict or define the Moore-haters as the french leftist-cinephiles?
the specific Jean-Sébastien Chauvin post on Moore vs. Moullet I mentioned
some posts ago can be found at http://image.kaywa.com/20040217
----- Original Message -----
From: "jpcoursodon"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 11:26 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No
Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
> wrote:
> >
> > It's more cinephiles than left-wingers, I guess.
> >
>
>
> You can't separate the two, especially dealing with this kind of
> film. Obviously all those guys (the cahiers/Libe/Le Monde/Inrock
> crowd) are left-leaning at the very least -- and what they hate in
> Moore is a demagogue approach that uncomfortably reminds them of
> French right-wing crowd pleasers Poujade back in the fifties/sixties,
> Le Pen more recently.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
11798
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 4:09am
Subject: Re: A decade under the influence
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan" wrote:
> IFC occasionally runs the three hour A DECADE UNDER THE INFLUENCE
> about independent film making in the 70's. It is available on DVD.
Nobody has responded to this yet - I meant to but it slipped my mind.
The documentary is aired in three parts (at least, I think this is
still the case; I no longer get cable TV). I've only seen the first
part, but it struck me as a slick, sound-bite-heavy "doc" with a lot
of showy editing, and it ends up merely reiterates every single
self-congratulatory cliche about American filmmaking in the '70s
(independent or not) that we already get from IFC, Ebert, Maltin,
university film studies, etc. It pushes a lot of titles at you but
they get about as obscure as FOXY BROWN. Try to imagine what a
30-second montage of "American films in the '70s" cut together by
Chuck Workman for CNN. Now multiply it by three hundred sixty, to
include interviews that add nothing but a chance to see what William
Friedkin and John G. Avildsen look like.
As I said, I've only seen the first hour. But two friends saw all of
it and confirmed that, yeah, it's all of the above. For three fucking
hours.
I'll bet they didn't even mention KILLER OF SHEEP or HI, MOM! or
BREEZY. Can anyone confirm this?
-Jaime
11799
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:13am
Subject: Re: I was beginning to wonder if this forum was a No Fahrenheit 9-11 Zone
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
So should we
> restrict or define the Moore-haters as the french leftist-
cinephiles?
"Je ne sais pas, je ne sais plus," to quote a line from at least a
dozen of old French movies. This is getting too subtle for me.
Obviously you're more familiar than I am with those guys' writings.
> the specific Jean-Sébastien Chauvin post on Moore vs. Moullet I
mentioned
> some posts ago can be found at http://image.kaywa.com/20040217
>
I've read that (Jean Sebastien Chauvin, what a name!) and I'm sure
his take on F911 would be along the same line. Re: Columbine I'm not
sure I agree with his statement that Moore is dishonest in his
interviewing methods whereas Ophuls was honest in his. Ophuls is
pretty devious and likes to make his victims sound like fools, or
liars, or both. Which is pretty much Moore's strategy with Heston.
>JPC
11800
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:29am
Subject: Re: A decade under the influence
> As I said, I've only seen the first hour. But two friends saw all
of
> it and confirmed that, yeah, it's all of the above. For three
fucking
> hours.
>
> I'll bet they didn't even mention KILLER OF SHEEP or HI, MOM! or
> BREEZY. Can anyone confirm this?
>
> -Jaime
"Decade" doesn't mention any of these titles, nor do they devote ANY
time at all to De Palma, Eastwood, Burnett, etc.
Oh, sure, they may show a lobby card or a quick cut to a movie poster
(to safely cover their reps) - but then it's back
to "Nashville", "Rocky", or some other film that's already received
enough attention ad nausem.
There's even a disclaimer at the end, which roughly states: "if you
do not see (add film title) discussed here, we apologize, but there
just wasn't enough time" - something along those lines.
The only worthwhile piece about the whole film was in the deleted
scenes section of the dvd - a 6 minute interview with Monte Hellman -
more proof that the films discussed in the 3 hour+ running time was
lacking.
-Aaron
a_film_by Main Page
Home Film
Art
Other: (Travel, Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact