Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:06pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
> I've been weary of the New Yorker DVDs. I picked up "The Son" and
> there was some pretty horrendous ghosting here and there. And to
> think, they just released "Lancelot of the Lake" and "A Man Escaped",
> as well as "La Belle
> Noiseuse." Are those just as badly PAL transferred?
There were one or two discs they put out in the last few months that
were apparently transferred from NTSC masters, and were even
progressive transfers (i.e., no weird interlacing residue appearing
whenever something moves in the frame, which show up if you're watching
the disc on a computer display) -- 'Underworld' by Kusturica and...
something else, I forget what. Generally though, New Yorker just don't
give a crap, which you can pretty much tell based on the graphic design
of their packages. Last night I rewatched the New Yorker 'L'Atalante'
disc, and it's another PAL-to-NTSC transfer, with horrendous ghosting
-- really smeared movement, and a slight greenish cast to the image.
Additionally, the featurette with analysis by Annette Insdorf and
Bernard Eisenschitz is edited so poorly one has to laugh -- with the
loudest guffaw saved for the end when the words "THANK YOU!" and a list
of acknowledgements scroll up the screen in a salsa font, after which
the writer/producer/editor has his credit pop onscreen as part of an
insanely gaudy, Amiga-formulated graphic of a rising sun popping up
over a hill.
craig.
11902
From: Nick
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
> I've been weary of the New Yorker DVDs. I picked up "The Son" and
> there was some pretty horrendous ghosting here and there. And to
> think, they just released "Lancelot of the Lake" and "A Man Escaped",
> as well as "La Belle Noiseuse." Are those just as badly PAL
> transferred?
For THE SON and LA BELLE NOISEUSE, I understand that New Yorker used
the same PAL masters which Artificial Eye licensed from the French.
Artificial Eye can get away with it because the UK is PAL too - but New
Yorker send the tapes down to their local NY DVD authoring house and
they do a bad PAL > NTSC conversion for them. It is possible to do
better PAL>NTSC than they do, using a machine called THE ALCHEMIST. I
believe it costs about $500 a go, but don't quote me on that.
It's often overlooked that Criterion insist upon their own technicians
overseeing their own HD transfer for their discs. They're marvellous.
(Except on the handful of discs where they didn't do this... Ozu's GOOD
MORNING, the SAMURAI trilogy, etc.)
-Nick Wrigley>-
11903
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:20pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
>
> (Except on the handful of discs where they didn't do this... Ozu's GOOD
> MORNING, the SAMURAI trilogy, etc.)
Also -- 'Häxan' and the Eisenstein: Sound Years box (that I know of
off-hand) (and if we're talking interlaced transfers).
craig.
11904
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
> If you found "Sorcerer" intense, then you will probably get a heart
> attack if watching the original which has more intensity during the
> credits alone;"Le Salaire de la peur" by Clouzot.
What's going on in the credits of the Clouzot film? I don't
remember all that well.
> Friedkin even had
> the nerve to use the translated title "Wages of Fear" as the
> alternative title.
That's a bit Bradbury-ish, isn't it, that complaint?
> I find "Sorcerer" incredible boring and pastiche. I know that
several
> here think highly of Friendkin, even consider "The Hunted" a great
> film; Why I cannot understand.
Who have you asked? What have you read? Do you want to understand?
I'm no great admirer of SORCERER but I think it's actually more
effective on every level (except for Montand-gazing), especially the
documentary-like atmosphere of its South American setting, which is
where the Clouzot film comes up short. I gather this is a minority
opinion, given the status accorded to remakes, especially ones with
troubled productions, cost overruns, and unimpressive box office
receipts.
-Jaime
11905
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Belle de Jour (was: Luis's Mom and her amnesia)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
> >
> > LB didn't get Alzheimer's, but his memory was imperfect. He
insists
> > in Objects of Desire, the book-length interview, that the
sequence
> > with the necrophiliac Duke in Belle de Jour is reality, not
> >daydream. Carriere reports in his book on film language that they
> >wrote it as real, based on a true anecdote (one they presumably
> >picked up doing their research in Paris brothels), then made it a
> >fantasy -- you can see how in the published screenplay. But
Michael
> >Wood spends a chapter in his excellent BFI monograph trying to
> >reconcile the director's statement with what's on-screen, which is
> >obviously a fantasy. Hey, he forgot!
>
> Oh, I don't know...I think that the sequence invites us to read it
> simultaneously as fantasy (or dream) and reality. That's why it's
so
> interesting.
Absolutely correct. The result of the transposition and reshaping of
the Duke's sequence is that it's both - it's much too long and too
baroque for one of her daydreams. That's why Bunuel and Carriere have
diametrically opposed recollections of it. It's the point where her
fantasy life and the brothel have fused and she starts to enjoy sex
with her husband, the E-ticket ride in what has been like a trip to
Disneyland, where she's the real customer, although the the theme
park attendants have been showing their teeth every time they give
her those hard, searching looks she isn't aware of. After that
Clementi enters the film and things go downhill, as they always tend
to do in Part Two.
11906
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Buñuel's book
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
> The recent talk of a potentially more complete version of the Hitch-
Truffaut
> book got me also thinking about Buñuel's splendid MY LAST
SIGH/BREATH: I've
> read (I think in a piece by Jonathan) that the English version, now
> reprinted a few times, is only about two thirds of the French (I
think
> French) original. (Was this the publisher's decision? The
translator's?) Can
> anyone confirm or deny this? And give any indication of what's
missing? If
> it's true, that would be a great book to re-issue properly one day:
although
> publishers, as we know, rarely like to revise such things so
completely!
>
> Adrian
You know, I should be able to answer that -- I used to have the
French version -- but I've had to rely on the bad English version. As
I recall what LB says about the films is covered better elsewhere
anyway, in the interview books by Max Aub and Colina/Turrent, but I'm
planning to look at the original of MDS next time I'm at UCLA if they
still have it -- LA Public Library's one copy has been stolen.
You'd think the American publisher would do something about the
problem -- maybe in 2005, which is going to be marked by new
festivities. I'm lobbying for Taschen to bring out the Aub book in
English. It's not available in French or English at this point, and
it's a treasure, not just for the three interviews w. Bunuel, but for
the 50 interviews with everyone from siblings to little-known key
collaborators like Julio Alejandro to Salvador Dali. The few bits
about Bunuel in Carriere's book of film theory are also kind of
interesting. Bunuel's collaborators tended to be brilliant too, so
they're important to have in print.
11907
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:17pm
Subject: Re: Belle de Jour (was: Luis's Mom and her amnesia)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
>
> > >
> > > Oh, I don't know...I think that the sequence invites us to read
> it
> > simultaneously as fantasy (or dream) and reality. That's why
it's
> so
> > interesting.
>
> ... and very consistent with Bunuel's and Surrealism's
objective
> to abolish the barriers between fantasy and reality, as best
> expressed in Breton's famous statement in the Second Manifesto
> (1930): "Everything leads us to believe that there exists a certain
> point of the mind from which life and death, the real and the
> imaginary, past and future... cease to be perceived
contradictorily.
> The surrealist activity has no other motivation than the hope to
> determine that point..."
For sure, although I think the exaltation one feels when that happens
at the end, which consciously references that passage, also comes
from simple relief that Pierre is "ok." According to Carriere, LB
would get tears in his eyes when he described the filming of the
miracle. Julio Alejandro says he cried watching silly melodramas and
hated himself for it. I think that's why he was always putting
Kessel's book down as outdated and feuilletonesque -- it probably
made him cry the first time he read it. The ending is very sad, and
even though he went ahead and filmed it in all its sadness, he wanted
to give the characters a happy ending, too.
11908
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
>It's often overlooked that Criterion insist upon their own technicians
>overseeing their own HD transfer for their discs. They're marvellous.
>(Except on the handful of discs where they didn't do this... Ozu's GOOD
>MORNING, the SAMURAI trilogy, etc.)
>
>-Nick Wrigley>-
The July issue of FILM & VIDEO has an article on Criterion's
transfers. Seems that for THE LEOPARD they were able to go direct
from a Technirama negative, then get Giuseppe Rotunno to oversee it
all. Undoubtedly New Yorker doesn't have the funds for that kind of
thing.
--
- Joe Kaufman
11909
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 7:01pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
>
> The July issue of FILM & VIDEO has an article on Criterion's
> transfers. Seems that for THE LEOPARD they were able to go direct
> from a Technirama negative, then get Giuseppe Rotunno to oversee
it
> all.
Their print of THE LEOPARD is pretty stunning. It's the best the
film has ever looked -- even better than the many restored
theatrical prints I've seen over the years.
Rotunno has, to his credit, been very diligent about the restoration
and presentation of THE LEOPARD. Good for him -- it's some of his
finest work, and thank God it's finally widely available.
-Bilge
11910
From: samfilms2003
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:26pm
Subject: Re: Celine et Julie / New Yorker DVDs
The right way to do it is to transfer to 24fps High Definition and then make the PAL
and NTSC masters from that.
Which Criterion would seem to be doing (as Fred could tell you).
-Sam
11911
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
>
> > If you found "Sorcerer" intense, then you will probably get a
heart
> > attack if watching the original which has more intensity during
the
> > credits alone;"Le Salaire de la peur" by Clouzot.
>
> What's going on in the credits of the Clouzot film? I don't
> remember all that well.
>
Henrik was being hyperbolic and facetious. The credits are just
white-letter titles on a greyish background, old-fashioned style,
with some shrill guitar on the sound track.
> JPC
> I'm no great admirer of SORCERER but I think it's actually more
> effective on every level (except for Montand-gazing), especially
the
> documentary-like atmosphere of its South American setting, which is
> where the Clouzot film comes up short. I gather this is a minority
> opinion, given the status accorded to remakes, especially ones with
> troubled productions, cost overruns, and unimpressive box office
> receipts.
>
> -Jaime
I think Clouzot also comes short in the Montand-Vanel
relationship, which is handled with a heavyhandedness at times
verging on the laughable. Still it's one of his better films, if not
the best. Compared to the incredibly overrated "Les Diaboliques" it
is a masterpiece. (speaking of remakes and minority opinions, I
prefer the American remake -- "Diabolique" -- as well as Curtis
Harrington's riff on the Clouzot in "Games"). One Clouzot I admired
but haven't seen in ages is his modernization of "Manon Lescaut".
JPC
11912
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:52pm
Subject: Re: Andre de Toth's Day of the Outlaw
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper
"After having claimed that the film even survived television pretty
well, I have to say that 35mm made a big difference, even over 16mm.
One of my all time favorite films just got even greater...There was
lots of detail and great contrast, much better than in 16mm, and the
contrast was much better, with richer blacks, than in the 16mms I
have seen.
"At least as important was the effect of showing it with the correct
masking, 1.85:1. Of course on TV and in 16mm it would be seen in
1.33:1...
"The combination of the proper masking and greater detail wound up
making the film much more moving to me on a human level than it had
been before."
I couldn't agree more. I had the pleasure of seeing superb 35mm
prints of CRIME WAVE, THE INDIAN FIGHTER and PLAY DIRTY at the
American Cinematheque a few years ago and I was struck by how fresh
and contemporary the films looked. The black and white photography in
CRIME WAVE (by Bert Glennon)looked like a late '60s movie; the 'scope
photography in THE INDIAN FIGHTER looked incredibly accomplished (and
has that great pan at night), hard to believe it was a 1954 movie.
PLAY DIRTY is for me De Toth's greatest movie; people who hadn't seen
it before gasped at the ending.
Now, I had seen all these movies before in 16mm or 35mm prints of
varying quality, but seeing these excellent prints deepened my
appreciation for De Toth's work. I had a similar experience seeing
14 excellent 35mm prints of Mizoguchi's movies when I was in Japan.
It was not unlike seeing the Rembrandts from the Hermitage when they
were exhibited at the Met in NYC after only seeing the paintings
reproduced in art books. I think it's aquestion of information (the
better the print the more visual information) and fidelity (the
closer to the camera negative the greater fidelity.) I hope we get to
see this 35mm print of DAY OF THE OUTLAW in Los Angeles some day.
Richard
11913
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:01pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> I think Clouzot also comes short in the Montand-Vanel
> relationship, which is handled with a heavyhandedness at times
> verging on the laughable. Still it's one of his better films, if
not
> the best. Compared to the incredibly overrated "Les Diaboliques"
it
> is a masterpiece. (speaking of remakes and minority opinions, I
> prefer the American remake -- "Diabolique" -- as well as Curtis
> Harrington's riff on the Clouzot in "Games"). One Clouzot I
admired
> but haven't seen in ages is his modernization of "Manon Lescaut".
> JPC
I haven't seen that one, I'll try to if it comes around.
Overall I think I haven't come around on Clouzot (a director who is
generally perceived as strong, even a master), while I have come
around on Friedkin (a director who is generally perceived to have
gone to seed after two Oscar nominations), but I know a couple of
friends who really took to QUAI DES ORFEVRES and LE CORBEAU when
they were released on DVD through the Criterion Collection. I quite
like QUAI and want to watch CORBEAU again as soon as I can.
Looking at his filmography, it starts with the talkies and ends in
1968, and he had a long life, but he didn't direct as many films as
one would have thought!
-Jaime
11914
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:33pm
Subject: Re: Wilder's Front Page and TCM snafus (was: Kehr on Brando, Wilder)
I never realized Milestone's version was more
socialist, but come to think of it, the sequence with
the escaped convict, the anti-establishment sentiment,
had the most conviction there.
I suppose Wilder had to make The Front Page his own.
It's not an unfunny film--the play is legendary for
its construction--so it had its good parts; I agree,
the casting of the supporting roles including
Gardenia was fun.
I still didn't enjoy the rollicking shrink. And it
still ain't no His Girl Friday.
I'm wondering at another TCM screening, of Visconti's
La Terra Trema. The version I keep seeing there has
endless voiceover narration, which frankly I find
terrible. IS there a narrationless version, or at
least one with reduced voiceovers?
Also, their Gold Rush is narrated, not silent.
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11915
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:35pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
>
>
> Overall I think I haven't come around on Clouzot (a director who is
> generally perceived as strong, even a master), while I have come
> around on Friedkin (a director who is generally perceived to have
> gone to seed after two Oscar nominations), but I know a couple of
> friends who really took to QUAI DES ORFEVRES and LE CORBEAU when
> they were released on DVD through the Criterion Collection. I
quite
> like QUAI and want to watch CORBEAU again as soon as I can.
>
> Looking at his filmography, it starts with the talkies and ends in
> 1968, and he had a long life, but he didn't direct as many films as
> one would have thought!
>
> -Jaime
Well, his first feature was in 1942! LE CORBEAU is overrated
although not as much as LES DIABOLIQUES (he used the same cheap
gimmick at the end of both films, by the way). QUAI DES ORFEVRES is
much better. I also liked LES ESPIONS which was reviled by the French
critics at the time (they didn't get its tongue-in-cheekness; I think
it was Jeanson who quipped "Clouzot a fait Kafka dans sa culotte.")
And I would like to see his last film, LA PRISONNIERE, about a sado-
masochistic relationship (somewhat inspired, I suspect, by the one he
had with his wife Vera, who died in 1960). He had a huge hit in 1960
with LA VERITE, a typical example of the so-called "French quality"
the New Wave was denouncing.
JPC
11916
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- jpcoursodon
He had a
> huge hit in 1960
> with LA VERITE, a typical example of the so-called
> "French quality"
> the New Wave was denouncing.
True, but the auteur of that one was Brigitte Bardot.
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11917
From: Dave Garrett
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Wilder's Front Page and TCM snafus (was: Kehr on Brando, Wilder)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Noel Vera
> Also, their Gold Rush is narrated, not silent.
That's not necessarily TCM's fault - the 1942 narrated version was Chaplin's preferred version, and as such his children have made sure that it's the version that's available for rental or licensing. Since the 1925 silent version is PD, it's fair game, but the available prints have generally been of poor quality compared to the narrated version (with the exception of Kevin Brownlow & David Gill's reconstruction of the 1925 version, which has only been screened at a handful of festivals and special events, presumably because they didn't want to irritate the Chaplin Estate by wider distribution).
It's something of a minor miracle that the Estate authorized the inclusion of both versions on the recent Warner/MK2 DVD set, even if the 1925 version is classified as one of the extra features on the discs, thus underscoring the official position that it's not the canonical version.
Dave
11918
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
Jean-Pierre Coursodon writes:
<< Compared to the incredibly overrated "Les Diaboliques" it
is a masterpiece. (speaking of remakes and minority opinions, I
prefer the American remake -- "Diabolique" -- as well as Curtis
Harrington's riff on the Clouzot in "Games"). >>
I love "Games", too!
Two other auteur films than are supposed to recall "Les Diaboliques":
"Scream of Fear" (Seth Holt)
"The Forms of Things Unknown" episode of "The Outer Limits" (Gerd Oswald).
Recently saw my first movie by Clouzot: "Quai des orfèvres". The technical
skill of the staging is impressive: Clouzot has vast panoramas of Parisian life,
all plunged through by his characters at breakneck speed. But, somehow, the
movie was not actually enjoyable to watch. All the cliches ever written about
how Clouzot is nasty-minded and only concerned with the ugly side of humans
seemed unfortunately true. And the complex staging somehow failed to be truly
interesting... It was a film one can respect, but it is hard to like.
Still, the ambition shown in this film is commendable. It is NOT hackwork,
but rather someone giving it their all.
Mike Grost
11919
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 6:41pm
Subject: Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
"Songcatcher" (Maggie Greenwald, 2000) was recently shown on television - a
fictional narrative feature film. Its subject: a musicologist collecting folk
songs among mountain people in 1900 North Carolina. The film is unexpectedly
involving. It recalls the recent thread about film and music.
Has anyone seen this?
Mike Grost
11920
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
In a message dated 7/7/04 5:42:48 PM, MG4273@a... writes:
> Has anyone seen this?
>
Yes. I thought it was enormously promising. But the cookie cutter love story
Greenwald grafted on was appalling and offensive. In the end, she didn't have
enough confidence to let the superb music carry the film. Disappointing.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11921
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:19am
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon
> He had a
> > huge hit in 1960
> > with LA VERITE, a typical example of the so-called
> > "French quality"
> > the New Wave was denouncing.
>
> True, but the auteur of that one was Brigitte Bardot.
>
>
> False. She spoke the only memorable line of her career ("On demande
des bobineuses a Bobigny") but she wasn't the auteur of this or any
other film (although I'm willing to agree that she is as much to be
blamed for "ET DIEU CREA LA FEMME" as Vadim is. )
> __________________________________
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11922
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Welles interviews
Damien Bona wrote:
>Peter, I think all cineastes owe you a debt of gratitude for your two
>interviews for they help further illuminate the endlessly fascinating
>person who was Orson Welles.
Thank you, Damien.
>I love the image that Mike Caveney presents of Welles as student, the
>young magicians the teachers: it proves again that the truly wise
>know that -- no matter what their age -- they can continue to learn
>from the young.
Oja has said in the past that when Welles returned to Hollywood in the early
'70s, he worked mainly with young people thereafter. This is corroborated by
my own research. I think Gary Graver was either in his late 20s or early 30s
when he started working with Welles in 1970. Jonathon Braun, his
editor-in-residence from 1982 to 1985 (the man who edited the garden scene in "The
Dreamers"), was in his 20s. And then you have all these young magicians whose
company Welles clearly enjoyed and benefited from. I think Welles was always young
at heart; Bogdanovich has said something to that effect in the past.
I loved Lloyd's comments on Joseph Cotten too. Cotten is my favorite film
actor, from "Kane" to "Ambersons" to "Shadow of a Doubt" to "Gaslight" to his
last, great role as the Reverend Doctor in "Heaven's Gate." What a career!
Peter
11923
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- jpcoursodon
> > False. She spoke the only memorable line of her
> career ("On demande
> des bobineuses a Bobigny") but she wasn't the auteur
> of this or any
> other film (although I'm willing to agree that she
> is as much to be
> blamed for "ET DIEU CREA LA FEMME" as Vadim is. )
Her most memorable "line" is the curve of her body,
J-P.
Wasn't she having an affair with the lovely Sami Frey
during the making of "La Verite"?
I still insist she has auteur squatters rights.
Of course I am speaking of B.B. in her prime -- not
the racist harridan who still bears that name.
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11924
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wilder's Buddy Buddy
Bill Krohn wrote:
>But I love what's
>great about Buddy Buddy: Lemmon. It's his most abstract performance,
>IMO, because of the way that he uses all his considerable expresssive
>arsenal in combination w. Wilder's mise en scene (mainly those fluids
>he's constantly getting bathed in, but also framing, angles) to
>portray a man who is physically and emotionally a squawling infant,
>may two months old.
Lemmon is indeed great, and Matthau is the perfect presence for Lemmon's
crazed character to bounce off of. Their interactions are simply priceless, as is
the droll way Wilder photographs them. I'd go so far to say that "Buddy
Buddy" is my favorite pairing of the two actors (though I haven't yet re-seen "The
Fortune Cookie" or, alas, "The Front Page").
What is so fascinating about "Buddy Buddy" is the film's anger. As Dave
Kehr's capsule suggests, it's an old man's film, but not in the usual sense. I'd
put Welles peacefully lighting a cigar and talking about how he wishes
"Othello" was a movie ahead of him, as opposed to one behind him, at the end of
"Filming Othello" at one end of the spectrum of old man's movies; and Wilder
lampooning the hippie generation in "Buddy Buddy" at the other. (Though Wilder has
made movies which fit the "Filming Othello" mode - "Avanti!" and "Sherlock.")
But Wilder's sheer anger is part of what makes the film so distinctive;
there's a collision between Wilder and what he thinks of as life in California,
circa 1980 that's very interesting to watch unfold. You also get this sort of
collision in "Ace in the Hole" and "One Two Three," two Wilders I have also seen
relatively recently.
By the way, thanks for the compliment, Bill. In fact, I wasn't even born
when "Buddy Buddy" was released in 1981! I know you love "The Front Page," but
what are some of your other most cherished Wilder films?
Peter
11925
From:
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:09pm
Subject: Before Sunset
We know that Robin Wood is an enormous fan of Linklater's "Before Sunrise";
does anybody know if he has weighed in on "Before Sunset" yet?
Peter
11926
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:13am
Subject: Re: Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> "Songcatcher" (Maggie Greenwald, 2000) was recently shown on
television - a
> fictional narrative feature film. Its subject: a musicologist
collecting folk
> songs among mountain people in 1900 North Carolina. The film is
unexpectedly
> involving. It recalls the recent thread about film and music.
> Has anyone seen this?
>
> Mike Grost
I saw it (it's on DVD) and liked it, in spite of the somewhat
feeble plot. You have to respect anyone who tackles a subject like
that. The singing sounded very authentic, and that's what it was all
about.
11927
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:24am
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon
>
> > > False. She spoke the only memorable line of her
> > career ("On demande
> > des bobineuses a Bobigny") but she wasn't the auteur
> > of this or any
> > other film (although I'm willing to agree that she
> > is as much to be
> > blamed for "ET DIEU CREA LA FEMME" as Vadim is. )
>
> Her most memorable "line" is the curve of her body,
> J-P.
>
Are you about to come out of the closet as a heterosexual after
all, David? How shocking! Please say it ain't so!
>
Wasn't she having an affair with the lovely Sami Frey
> during the making of "La Verite"?
Of course. Were you jealous?
>
I still insist she has auteur squatters rights.
>
> Of course I am speaking of B.B. in her prime -- not
> the racist harridan who still bears that name.
She was as much of a racist when she was in her prime, you know.
She just didn't talk about it. She didn't have to talk at all.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11928
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:38am
Subject: Re: Wilder's Buddy Buddy
I know you love "The Front Page," but
> what are some of your other most cherished Wilder films?
>
> Peter
The usual: The Fortune Cookie, Some Like It Hot, The
Apartment, Susnset Blvd, Avanti, Sherlock Holmes, Ace in the
Hole. Check out A Foreign Affair and Five Graves to Cairo
sometime, too.
11929
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:05am
Subject: Irma La Douce (was: Wilder's 'Buddy Buddy')
> I know you love "The Front Page," but
>> what are some of your other most cherished Wilder films?
>>
>> Peter
>
> The usual: The Fortune Cookie, Some Like It Hot, The
> Apartment, Susnset Blvd, Avanti, Sherlock Holmes, Ace in the
> Hole. Check out A Foreign Affair and Five Graves to Cairo
> sometime, too.
Godard was/is very fond of 'Irma La Douce,' which in a 1963 top ten
list was the only time I read/saw him give a nod to Wilder -- with the
exception of the episode of 'Ciné(ma/astes) de notre temps' included on
the Criterion 'Contempt' Disc 2, where he cites him -- not necessarily
as a favorite, nor a bête noir, but as someone he and the Cahiers gang
might have written favorably about. (At least I think that's the
interview.) My point being, 'Irma La Douce' never seems to be anyone's
favorite -- I do like it, but maybe it seems a tad too long, and the
Mister X conceit seems a little too burdensome and drawn out...
craig.
11930
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- jpcoursodon
>
> Are you about to come out of the closet as a
> heterosexual after
> all, David? How shocking! Please say it ain't so!
> >
>
Jamais de la vie! Especially after seeing the
babe-a-licious Colin Farrell in "A Home at the End of
the World"
There's even a scene in which he and the other male
lead dance and get all snuggly on a new York rooftop
as "Soave Sia Il Vento" from Mozarts'"Cosi fan Tutte"
plays in the backgroud. This is the same excerpt from
the great opera used by Schlesinger in "Sunday Bloody
Sunday" Now it's become a toney gay make-out cue!
>
> Wasn't she having an affair with the lovely Sami
> Frey
> > during the making of "La Verite"?
>
> Of course. Were you jealous?
> >
>
Mais Oui!
> I still insist she has auteur squatters rights.
> >
> > Of course I am speaking of B.B. in her prime --
> not
> > the racist harridan who still bears that name.
>
> She was as much of a racist when she was in her
> prime, you know.
> She just didn't talk about it. She didn't have to
> talk at all.
> >
I've often wondered about that. Thanks for clearing it
up. VERY disappointing.
Oh well, we'll always have "Le Mepris."
__________________________________
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
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11931
From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:59am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
I do like the texture of the South American scenes in
Friedkin's Sorcerer, but none of the thriller
setpieces really appeal to me the way Clouzot's does.
I suppose Friedkin's done interesting work--maybe his
most easily likeable is The French Connection (tho I
do prefer Frankenheimer's sequel). To Live and Die in
LA I liked somewhat. I'm not a big fan of The Exorcist.
__________________________________
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11932
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:18am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Noel Vera
> I do like the texture of the South American scenes in
> Friedkin's Sorcerer, but none of the thriller
> setpieces really appeal to me the way Clouzot's does.
> I suppose Friedkin's done interesting work--maybe his
> most easily likeable is The French Connection (tho I
> do prefer Frankenheimer's sequel). To Live and Die in
> LA I liked somewhat. I'm not a big fan of The Exorcist.
I also prefer Frankenheimer's sequel, and happen to think
Boorman's sequel to The Exorcist is superior. (Dave Kehr wrote
an excellent defense of it and Rivette is known as a "fanboy".)
When Friedkin was asked what he though of Jonn Boorman he
replied: "I've only seen one film by him and technically it was
incompetent!" (Ahhh....yeah sure.) Friedkin also referred to
letterboxing as "pretentious" in a mid 90's article I read. What did
he mean by that?
11933
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:29am
Subject: Pierrot production history
Can anyone provide me with details about the production history of
"Pierrot le fou" and what happend in Godard's personal life around
this time? Especially concerning him being disillusioned by film and
being self-destructive in terms of wanting to create something original.
The majority of texts I have read note upon how Pierrot is an end, but
I would like to know what went on in Godard's personal life at the
time (especially mentally) and if there was something reflecting in
the production.
Henrik
11934
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:39am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
> I also prefer Frankenheimer's sequel, and happen to think
> Boorman's sequel to The Exorcist is superior. (Dave Kehr wrote
> an excellent defense of it and Rivette is known as a "fanboy".)
Scorsese mentions that he prefers it to Friedkin's original in his
Guilty Pleasures article for "film comment". He compares Regan (Linda
Blair)'s modern-day saint in "Exorcist II" to Ingrid Bergman in
Rossellini's "Europa '51" and to his own "Mean Streets"'s Charlie.
> When Friedkin was asked what he though of Jonn Boorman he
> replied: "I've only seen one film by him and technically it was
> incompetent!" (Ahhh....yeah sure.) Friedkin also referred to
> letterboxing as "pretentious" in a mid 90's article I read. What
did
> he mean by that?
I don't know what he meant by that, but I seem to recall Roger Avary
mentioning Friedkin's dislike for letterboxing in his online journal
recently after a screening for "Sorcerer". In fact, that's why the
film is out on dvd in pan and scan only.
-Aaron
11935
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:41am
Subject: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
Still it's one of his better films, if not
> the best. Compared to the incredibly overrated "Les
Diaboliques" it
> is a masterpiece. (speaking of remakes and minority opinions,
I
> prefer the American remake -- "Diabolique" --
JP, could you expand a little more as to why you liked the
Chechik version of "Diabolique"? I remember showing a scene
from the film to a friend as an example of a director not thinking
out how the camera should move or why it needs to move. The
scene is in the cafeteria where the camera follows a student
taking his tray off the counter, passing the school staff and the
camera tracking with his movement then craning up to reveal the
entire cafeteria. If I remember correctly, the film then cuts back to
the staff table and I found it rather poorly though out to do a long
complex camera movement only to cut back into where the
movement had almost begun. The movement seemed empty,
with no concept of how it would be intergrated into the sequence.
If you are going to move the camera out to suddenly cut back in,
what is the point?
As for the original: it is a limp, soggy noodle of a thriller.
Michael Worrall
11936
From: Damien Bona
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:59am
Subject: Joseph Cotten (was Welles interviews)
Peter, I think it's wonderful that Joseph Cotten is your favorite
actor, and long may you perpetuate his memory throughout time.
In addition to the films you mentioned, there's his spectacular
triptych collaboration with William Dieterle: Love Letters, Portrait
of Jennie and September Affair – all great movies on their own and
taken as a three part whole unsurpassed for an operatically
expressionistic portrayal of love from the studio days. And which, I
think, tip the scales in Cotton's favor over Charles Boyer (whom I
also love) as the most romantic of screen actors. What lifts Cotten
over Boyer (and such other memorable screen presences as Paul
Henreid, Cary Grant, Leslie Howard, Alain Delon) is that he was such
a Regular Joe, someone who's romantic inclinations came upon him
unexpectedly.
And there are also Julien Duvivier's memorable Lydia, John
Cromwell's (and Selznick et al's) fascinating Since You Went Away,
Hitchcock's Under Capricorn and Vidor's sublime Duel In The Sun.
Plus he had such class, a quality that, except for the likes of
George Clooney, Ralph Fiennes, Ethan Hawke and Jude Law, has all but
disappeared from screens today.
-- Damien
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I loved Lloyd's comments on Joseph Cotten too. Cotten is my
favorite film
> actor, from "Kane" to "Ambersons" to "Shadow of a Doubt"
to "Gaslight" to his
> last, great role as the Reverend Doctor in "Heaven's Gate." What a
career!
>
> Peter
11937
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:59am
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> As for the original: it is a limp, soggy noodle of a thriller.
There's nothing limp/soggy about Clouzot's film (except in the literal
sense at the moment of the shock climax). The pacing of the space and
build-up of tension from hallway to room, creaking doors cracking, etc.
in that final sequence, as one example of the film's strength, is
masterful.
craig.
11938
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:03am
Subject: DVD options
I wonder if DVD's with the following options will ever be available:
-- with musical soundtracks accompanying the visuals but no dialogue
I liked to listen to the emotional weight of the music without the
interruption of talking
-- with English auditory tracts of Godard's philosophical commentaries
with in his movies
I feel I miss the visuals when I forced to read the long running
commentaries
--with oral tracts of the inter-scene titles in silent movies
I think it would be interesting to see the movie without the visual
interruptions of the titles ... of course, the transitions between
might be probably be awkward
11939
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:04am
Subject: Re: Pierrot production history
> Can anyone provide me with details about the production history of
> "Pierrot le fou" and what happend in Godard's personal life around
> this time? Especially concerning him being disillusioned by film and
> being self-destructive in terms of wanting to create something
> original.
>
> The majority of texts I have read note upon how Pierrot is an end, but
> I would like to know what went on in Godard's personal life at the
> time (especially mentally) and if there was something reflecting in
> the production.
His marriage to Anna Karina was on the brink of implosion during the
production -- was it during this film, or 'Alphaville' previously or
'Made in U.S.A.' / 'Anticipation' later that she attempted suicide?
craig.
11940
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:10am
Subject: Re: DVD options
>
> -- with English auditory tracts of Godard's philosophical commentaries
> with in his movies
> I feel I miss the visuals when I forced to read the long running
> commentaries
A few of the Dziga-Vertov-Group films were voiced-over in English for
their American/British releases ('Vent d'est' and 'British Sounds' come
immediately to mind -- 'Pravda' too?) -- you can find bootlegs of them
on eMule. Poor quality, but no need to read subtitles. Really though,
voice plays such a vital role in so many of Godard's films that
"applying" the meaning of the English subtitles to the cadences of the
French voice is probably the better route for watching many of the
films -- an English-dubbed 'Histoire(s) du cinéma' would be disastrous!
craig.
11941
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:22am
Subject: Re: DVD options
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
> I wonder if DVD's with the following options will ever be available:
>
> -- with musical soundtracks accompanying the visuals but no dialogue
> I liked to listen to the emotional weight of the music without the
> interruption of talking
I believe that dvds do actually offer this option once in awhile
(although lately, I haven't seen too many that do). During passages
when there are is no music to be heard, often times the composer will
do commentary.
As mediocre as the following movies may be - except for "The Thing"
some dvds that offer the option you mention are:
"Way of the Gun" (Christopher McQuarrie)
"Donnie Brasco" (Mike Newell)
"Pee Wee's Big Adventure" (Tim Burton; score by Danny Elfman)
"The Thing" (John Carpenter; score by Ennio Morricone)
I'm sure there's many others.
-Aaron
11942
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:28am
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
> There's nothing limp/soggy about Clouzot's film (except in the
literal
> sense at the moment of the shock climax). The pacing of the
space and
> build-up of tension from hallway to room, creaking doors
cracking, etc.
> in that final sequence, as one example of the film's strength, is
> masterful.
>
> craig.
Craig, I should have made my opinion sond less like a fact. I
found the film in too much "good taste" to be effective. (From
what I understand, this is one of the reasons the Cahiers critics
disliked it.) For me, if Hitchcock, Lang -or even Wise- directed it
there would have been an undercurrent of dread that is missing
from the film. I do not at all mean this in a homophobic manner,
but "fay" is the only word I can use to describe the film in its
represenation of psychological terror.
Michael Worrall
11943
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:31am
Subject: Re: Joseph Cotten (was Welles interviews)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> Peter, I think it's wonderful that Joseph Cotten is your favorite
> actor, and long may you perpetuate his memory throughout time.
>
> In addition to the films you mentioned, there's his spectacular
> triptych collaboration with William Dieterle: Love Letters,
Portrait
> of Jennie and September Affair – all great movies on their own and
> taken as a three part whole unsurpassed for an operatically
> expressionistic portrayal of love from the studio days. And which,
I
> think, tip the scales in Cotton's favor over Charles Boyer (whom I
> also love) as the most romantic of screen actors. What lifts Cotten
> over Boyer (and such other memorable screen presences as Paul
> Henreid, Cary Grant, Leslie Howard, Alain Delon) is that he was
such
> a Regular Joe, someone who's romantic inclinations came upon him
> unexpectedly.
>
> And there are also Julien Duvivier's memorable Lydia, John
> Cromwell's (and Selznick et al's) fascinating Since You Went Away,
> Hitchcock's Under Capricorn and Vidor's sublime Duel In The Sun.
>
> Plus he had such class, a quality that, except for the likes of
> George Clooney, Ralph Fiennes, Ethan Hawke and Jude Law, has all
but
> disappeared from screens today.
>
> -- Damien
As canonical as it may be, Cotten in "The Third Man" MUST be
mentioned! There's also a great spaghetti western he made in the late
60s entitled "The Hellbenders" (d: Sergio Corbucci) with a fantastic
Ennio Morricone score. It's a shame that in the 1970s, his character
roles dipped to such dreck as "Airport '77", which is just abysmal.
But as Peter mentions: he was back in fine form for
Cimino's "Heaven's Gate"!
-Aaron
11944
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:37am
Subject: Clouzot/Diabolique (correction)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
>
>
> > There's nothing limp/soggy about Clouzot's film (except in the
> literal
> > sense at the moment of the shock climax). The pacing of the
> space and
> > build-up of tension from hallway to room, creaking doors
> cracking, etc.
> > in that final sequence, as one example of the film's strength,
is
> > masterful.
> >
> > craig.
>
Craig, I should have made my opinion sond less like a fact. I
found the film in too much "good taste" to be effective. (From
what I understand, this is one of the reasons the Cahiers critics
disliked it.) For me, if Hitchcock, Lang -or even Wise- directed it
there would have been an undercurrent of dread that is missing
from the film. I do not at all mean this in a homophobic manner,
but "fey" is the only word I can use to describe the film in its
represenation of psychological terror.
Michael "needs a dictionary" Worrall
11945
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:46am
Subject: Re: DVD options
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> --with oral tracts of the inter-scene titles in silent movies
> I think it would be interesting to see the movie without the
visual
> interruptions of the titles ... of course, the transitions between
> might be probably be awkward
Elizabeth,
Many times the insertion of a inter-title may be crucial for pace
and dramatic effect in a silent film. The use of inter-titles to link
images together is crucial in a film like Fritz Lang "Spies".
"I saw the man who....", "Who is responsible for this?..."
"Ich."
Michael Worrall
11946
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:58am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
> > I also prefer Frankenheimer's sequel, and happen to think
> > Boorman's sequel to The Exorcist is superior. (Dave Kehr wrote
> > an excellent defense of it and Rivette is known as a "fanboy".)
>
> Scorsese mentions that he prefers it to Friedkin's original in his
> Guilty Pleasures article for "film comment". He compares Regan
(Linda
> Blair)'s modern-day saint in "Exorcist II" to Ingrid Bergman in
> Rossellini's "Europa '51" and to his own "Mean Streets"'s Charlie.
>
I like Friedkin (Crusing, Sorcerer, French Connection, Exorcist,
Brink's Job, Hunted...) and I like Clouzot, especially Le corbeau. I
recently watched Exorcist 2 for the first time when I had to write
something about Boorman, and for me it didn't live up to its
underground reputation. (Add Pascal Kane to the fans.) On the other
hand, I LOVE Exorcist 3, directed by Blatty. It absolutely should not
be missed!
11947
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:00am
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> > As for the original: it is a limp, soggy noodle of a thriller.
>
> There's nothing limp/soggy about Clouzot's film (except in the
literal
> sense at the moment of the shock climax). The pacing of the space
and
> build-up of tension from hallway to room, creaking doors cracking,
etc.
> in that final sequence, as one example of the film's strength, is
> masterful.
>
> craig.
I agree completely. So did Alfred Hitchcock.
11948
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:03am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
On the other
> hand, I LOVE Exorcist 3, directed by Blatty. It absolutely should
not
> be missed!
Wow, you must have enjoyed Blatty's "The Ninth Configuration" as well?
Pleased to meet SOMEBODY else who enjoys Exorcist 3!
-Aaron
11949
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:16am
Subject: Re: Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
Thanks for the replies!
This film gradually reveals a whole hidden world. It is a very interesting
experience.
A musical culture, invisible at the first to the eye, gradually shines forth.
I will be watching for other Greenwald films.
I agree, that the heroine's love relationship, while pleasant, is not as
gripping as other aspects of the film. The film also is a bit slow paced. Still,
it is original.
It is a good idea to keep checking the "margins of the cinema". This film,
like "Unbowed" (Nanci Rossov) is a most agreeable "find".
Mike Grost
11950
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:30am
Subject: Welcome Back, Mr. McDonald (Koki Mitani)
While we are the subject of films that should be better known:
Welcome Back, Mr. McDonald (Koki Mitani, 1997)
This Japanese film just showed up on DVD at the video store. It is a farce
about the making of a live radio drama, and all the misadventures of the
participants, set in Tokyo. It is a good deal of fun. All of the performers manage to
stay madly in character, as they collide with each other.
Koki Mitani seems to be mainly a screenwriter and playwright. This is one of
2 scripts he has also directed in recent years.
Mike Grost
11951
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:32am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> I like Friedkin (Crusing, Sorcerer, French Connection, Exorcist,
> Brink's Job, Hunted...) and I like Clouzot, especially Le corbeau. I
> recently watched Exorcist 2 for the first time when I had to write
> something about Boorman, and for me it didn't live up to its
> underground reputation. (Add Pascal Kane to the fans.) On the other
> hand, I LOVE Exorcist 3, directed by Blatty. It absolutely should not
> be missed!
What are you writing about on Boorman?
What is its "underground" reputation? What people think about the film
outside of Hollywood? Ciment and Kehr have wrote on the film, are they
"underground"? I am not trying to be snotty, I just do not understand
your use of the term.
Can't share your enthusiam for "Exorcist III", though George C. Scott
chews the scenery in a deligthful way, I stopped watching after Brad
Dourif's endless monologue. Interesting to know that
Hitchcock liked "Diabolique".
Michael Worrall
11952
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:43am
Subject: Detroit Film Theater: Summer/Fall Schedule
The new schedule for the Detroit Film Theater is now available on-line:
http://www.dia.org/dft/
They are showing the revived "Playtime" (Tati) just in time for my birthday
in October (just a coincidence!)
Also "Cowards Bend the Knee" (Guy Maddin).
Mike Grost
11953
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:02am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
> On the other
> > hand, I LOVE Exorcist 3, directed by Blatty. It absolutely should
> not
> > be missed!
>
> Wow, you must have enjoyed Blatty's "The Ninth Configuration" as
well?
> Pleased to meet SOMEBODY else who enjoys Exorcist 3!
>
> -Aaron
I turned it off after 30 minutes. On the other hand, I heard that
Marty Rubin did the same thing with Do-Des-Ka-Den the first time he
watched it! Maybe I should go back to Ninth Configuration. Now that I
think about it, there are even some similarities w. the Kurosawa...
I talked to Blatty about E3, and he acknowledged the obvious Tati
influence (re: the extraordinary plan-sequence in the hospital
corridor). Brad Dourif is great in that film, isn't he?
11954
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:16am
Subject: Re: Wilder's Buddy Buddy
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I know you love "The Front Page," but
> > what are some of your other most cherished Wilder films?
> >
> > Peter
>
> The usual: The Fortune Cookie, Some Like It Hot, The
> Apartment, Susnset Blvd, Avanti, Sherlock Holmes, Ace in the
> Hole. Check out A Foreign Affair and Five Graves to Cairo
> sometime, too.
I stupidly omitted Kiss Me Stupid and Double Indemnity, two of my
favorites. I love the look of Irma, but it is a bit swaybacked. A
minor Wilder worth seeing: The Major and the Minor. Watch how he
handles reverse shots of Milland seeing/not seeing Rogers in that one!
11955
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:13am
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
> > recently watched Exorcist 2 for the first time when I had to
write
> > something about Boorman, and for me it didn't live up to its
> > underground reputation. (Add Pascal Kane to the fans.) On the
other
> > hand, I LOVE Exorcist 3, directed by Blatty. It absolutely should
not
> > be missed!
>
> What are you writing about on Boorman?
Not much. I reviewed his memoirs for The Economist and thought I
should catch up on him a bit. I really enjoyed seeing Excalibur again.
>
> What is its "underground" reputation? What people think about the
film
> outside of Hollywood? Ciment and Kehr have wrote on the film, are
they
> "underground"? I am not trying to be snotty, I just do not
understand
> your use of the term.
Well, it was a gigantic bomb, so I'd call anyone who liked it an
underground opinion, even if it was Pauline Kael. And for all I know,
she did!
> Can't share your enthusiam for "Exorcist III", though George C.
Scott
> chews the scenery in a deligthful way, I stopped watching after
Brad
> Dourif's endless monologue. Interesting to know that
> Hitchcock liked "Diabolique".
It's pretty well established that Diabolique -- and its b.o. success -
inspired him to make Psycho. Stephen Rebello goes into that in his
Making Of book. In the fabled Hitchcock-Trufaut tapes you can hear FT
trying to get AH to knock Clouzot re: the "cluttered realism" of his
sets, vs. the supposed abstraction of a particular set AH uses in Man
Who Knew Too Much 2. Not only doesn't AH accept the invitation to bad-
mouth Clouzot -- he informs FT that the set he liked in MWKTM is an
exact copy of a photograph of the real thing.
I will just mention for Mystery Mike that he should check out Le
Corbeau (The Crow) and think about the influence that film may have
had on Ellery Queen. And of course there is the Preminger remake, The
13th Letter, which I like too.
Raymond Bellour wrote a monograph on Clouzot that's kind of hard to
find. I think Clouzot got bad-rapped for his supposed sellout during
the war.
JP - I saw La prisonniere when it was first released, and it didn't
float MY boat.
DE - Brigitte Bardot couldn't direct trafic. Nice body, though.
11956
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:35am
Subject: Hitchcock/Diabolique (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" <
> It's pretty well established that Diabolique -- and its b.o.
success -
> inspired him to make Psycho. Stephen Rebello goes into that
in his
> Making Of book. In the fabled Hitchcock-Trufaut tapes you can
hear FT
> trying to get AH to knock Clouzot re: the "cluttered realism" of
his
> sets, vs. the supposed abstraction of a particular set AH uses
in Man
> Who Knew Too Much 2. Not only doesn't AH accept the
invitation to bad-
> mouth Clouzot -- he informs FT that the set he liked in MWKTM
is an
> exact copy of a photograph of the real thing.
Well, in the Hitchcock/Truffaut book I believe Hitch tells Truffaut
that he never saw "M". So it may be a little hard to seperate
fiction from fact.
As for the Arthurian legend, I'll be sticking with Boorman and
Bresson --two different takes-- and skip the Jerry Bruckheimer / /
/ Antoine Fuqua spin.
Michael Worrall
11957
From: George Robinson
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 9:33am
Subject: Fw: [ozu] Mizoguchi comes to DVD -- in France
This good news, bad news courtesy of the Ozu list.
Nine films, all of them great, but only French titles.
Big, big sigh.
George Robinson
Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:42 PM
Subject: [ozu] Mizoguchi comes to DVD -- in France
> http://www.dvdnet-fr.com/lire-news-dvd-1683.html
>
> Two box sets, containing 9 Mizoguchi films are being released by
> Gaumont-Columbia-Tristar Home Video later this year.
>
> Vol. 1
>
> Chikamatsu monogatari (The Crucified Lovers)
> Sansho dayu (Sansho the Bailiff)
> Yohiki (Empress Yang Kwei Fei)
> Shin heike monogatari (Tales of the Taira Clan)
>
> Vol. 2
>
> Ugetsu monogatari (Ugetsu)
> Gion bayashi (A Geisha)
> Oyu-sama (Miss Oyu)
> Saikaku ichidai onna (Life of Oharu)
> Akasen chitai (Street of Shame)
>
> Only French subtitles.
>
> Alapage has these up for pre-order at 50 euros per set.
>
> Speaking of French DVDs -- did anyone get to see the French Ozu box
> set yet?
>
> MEK
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
11958
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:17am
Subject: Re: Hitchcock/Diabolique (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
Bill Krohn writes:
<< I will just mention for Mystery Mike that he should check out Le
Corbeau (The Crow) and think about the influence that film may have
had on Ellery Queen. And of course there is the Preminger remake, The
13th Letter, which I like too.
>>
Will do!
I am definitely behind the curve on Clouzot, and have never seen this
Preminger, either! ( I am a giant fan of Laura, Fallen Angel, Whirlpool, Bunny Lake
is Missing, ...)
Years ago, Hicthcock gave an interview in the paper. He claimed to have
received a letter asking for help. As best as I can recall:
"Dear Alfred Hitchcock,
Our family has a terrible problem.
Ever since my wife saw Diabolique she has been afraid to take a bath.
Now she has seen your film of Psycho, and is also terrified of taking a
shower.
The smell around our house is getting terrible.
What should we do?
Signed,
Perplexed."
Hitchcock's suggestion:
"Have you considered sending your wife out to be dry-cleaned?"
Mike Grost
11959
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Irma La Douce
I saw IRMA around the time French critics got up
in arms about Jean-Pierre Jeunet's AMELIE for
using digital technology to alter Montmartre, and
all I could think was, "They're worried that
*his* Montmartre is artificial?" The blatant
artifice of IRMA is one of its attractions for
me, as in a certain way is its overlong running
time: it's excessive without being indulgent, or
something. I recall actually preferring
MacLaine's performance to that in THE APARTMENT,
but that may be reactionary since I've never
cared overly for the latter.
Sam
>Craig K. wrote:
>Godard was/is very fond of 'Irma La Douce,' which in a 1963 top ten
>list was the only time I read/saw him give a nod to Wilder -- with the
>exception of the episode of 'Ciné(ma/astes) de notre temps' included on
>the Criterion 'Contempt' Disc 2, where he cites him -- not necessarily
>as a favorite, nor a bête noir, but as someone he and the Cahiers gang
>might have written favorably about. (At least I think that's the
>interview.) My point being, 'Irma La Douce' never seems to be anyone's
>favorite -- I do like it, but maybe it seems a tad too long, and the
>Mister X conceit seems a little too burdensome and drawn out...
>
>craig.
>
11960
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 1:32pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
.
>
> Craig, I should have made my opinion sond less like a fact. I
> found the film in too much "good taste" to be effective. (From
> what I understand, this is one of the reasons the Cahiers critics
> disliked it.) For me, if Hitchcock, Lang -or even Wise- directed
it
> there would have been an undercurrent of dread that is missing
> from the film. I do not at all mean this in a homophobic manner,
> but "fay" is the only word I can use to describe the film in its
> represenation of psychological terror.
>
I don't understand what you mean by "good taste". Actually the
entire film is in the worst of taste (heavy-handed, wallowing in the
sordid with such wretched excess that it becomes laughable) from
characterization and dialogue down to most of the direction. (Also do
remember that at the time it was considered extremely powerful
horror/suspense and even shocking). The remake at least avoids the
stupidity of the original. I didn't say I liked it particularly, just
that I preferred it to the Clouzot, which is damning with (very)
faint praise. I remember little about it, but what you wrote about
gratuitous camera moves is probably true. Self-indulgence... "Games"
was much better in my recollection.
JPC
> Michael Worrall
11961
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:14pm
Subject: Re: DVD options
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
> As mediocre as the following movies may be -
...
> "Way of the Gun" (Christopher McQuarrie)
> "Donnie Brasco" (Mike Newell)
> "Pee Wee's Big Adventure" (Tim Burton; score by Danny Elfman)
Huh, I didn't know these movies were mediocre, I like THE WAY OF THE
GUN and DONNIE BRASCO almost as much as THE THING. Haven't seen the
Tim Burton film.
-Jaime
11962
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:22pm
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer"
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Well, it was a gigantic bomb, so I'd call anyone who liked it an
> underground opinion, even if it was Pauline Kael. And for all I
know,
> she did!
>
You can add Coursodon and Tavernier to the underground group...
>
> It's pretty well established that Diabolique -- and its b.o.
success -
> inspired him to make Psycho. Stephen Rebello goes into that in his
> Making Of book. In the fabled Hitchcock-Trufaut tapes you can hear
FT
> trying to get AH to knock Clouzot re: the "cluttered realism" of
his
> sets, vs. the supposed abstraction of a particular set AH uses in
Man
> Who Knew Too Much 2. Not only doesn't AH accept the invitation to
bad-
> mouth Clouzot -- he informs FT that the set he liked in MWKTM is an
> exact copy of a photograph of the real thing.
>
The undeniable fact that Hitch was inspired by the BO success of
LES DIABOLIQUES and saw the possibilities of a new kind of suspense
doesn't necessarily mean that he admired Clouzot and his film. He was
a professional and pros as a rule do not bad-mouth colleagues in
public statements (moreover Hollywood pros always respect commercial
success). For VERTIGO Hitch used a similar kind of story by the same
writing team and look at the result! Light years away from Clouzot's
silly, tawdry little movie. Sorry but about that ending, Vanel's deus-
ex-machina apparition always had me bursting out laughing.
JPC
11963
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> Well, his first feature was in 1942! LE CORBEAU is overrated
> although not as much as LES DIABOLIQUES (he used the same cheap
> gimmick at the end of both films, by the way).
It's been a while since I saw LE CORBEAU, but I liked it a lot - I
remember thinking at the time that it was as close as the cinema was
likely to come to Dostoyevsky.
> And I would like to see his last film, LA PRISONNIERE, about a sado-
> masochistic relationship
I couldn't get too interested in this film, despite the unusual subject
matter. - Dan
11964
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:38pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt
> > Well, his first feature was in 1942! LE CORBEAU is overrated
> > although not as much as LES DIABOLIQUES (he used the same cheap
> > gimmick at the end of both films, by the way).
>
> It's been a while since I saw LE CORBEAU, but I liked it a lot - I
> remember thinking at the time that it was as close as the cinema
was
> likely to come to Dostoyevsky.
>
Gee! I must have missed something!
> > And I would like to see his last film, LA PRISONNIERE, about a
sado-
> > masochistic relationship
>
> I couldn't get too interested in this film, despite the unusual
subject
> matter. - Dan
So you may not be the American "divin marquis" after all. Is the
film at all available here? (will write you privately about HONEYMOON
and thanks again!)
JPC
11965
From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:00pm
Subject: Re: Friedkin's "Sorcerer
>When Friedkin was asked what he though of Jonn
>Boorman he replied: "I've only seen one film by him
>and technically it was
>incompetent!" (Ahhh....yeah sure.)
That's priceless! And true, up to a point. The
Exoorcist and The French Connection are expertly paced
and technically well made, where Boorman tends to
linger sometimes for no discernible reason (I'm
thinking of Point Blank, among others). But there's a
quality to Boorman that makes him tower over Friedkin,
"technical incompetence" and all.
>Friedkin also referred to
>letterboxing as "pretentious" in a mid 90's article I
>read. What did he mean by that?
He's in withdrawal?
I agree on Exorcist 2, much more interesting movie
than the first, in a lunatic way. The third--well,
let's just say Blatty knows how to point the camera in
the general direction of the actors...Brad Dourif is
campy fun, though...
Anyone ever notice that the vision sequences in
Exorcist 2, where Burton is accompanied in flight by
the demon Pazuzu, were inspired by Mephisto carrying
Faust across the world in the Murnau film?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
11966
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:01pm
Subject: Re: Songcatcher
Songcatcher has a haunting beauty; the music reflects the Appalachian
Mountains and its people.
I sometimes think that screenwriters who use such strong settings
(Paris romances) or times (The Depression social commentaries) have an
easier time conveying the story as the audience already has
expectations in mind. Of course, the skilled screenwriter sets up that
time / place aura regardless of how public. Simple family dramas have
less to carry them reference time / place ... so they use "personal
events," which are often cliche. I read someplace that something like
90% of family drama / comedies have a holiday or family affair
(wedding. birthday, etc) as an integral part of the story.
(I suggest that murder / crime dramas have a much lower percentage of
holidays / family affairs as in integral part
of the story.)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> "Songcatcher" (Maggie Greenwald, 2000) was recently shown on
television - a
> fictional narrative feature film. Its subject: a musicologist
collecting folk
> songs among mountain people in 1900 North Carolina. The film is
unexpectedly
> involving. It recalls the recent thread about film and music.
> Has anyone seen this?
>
> Mike Grost
I saw it (it's on DVD) and liked it, in spite of the somewhat
feeble plot. You have to respect anyone who tackles a subject like
that. The singing sounded very authentic, and that's what it was all
about.
11967
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:11pm
Subject: Re: DVD options
I don't want the entire movie dubbed, just the extended voice-over
commentaries by Godard. A French cadence / accent in English would be
helpful.
>
> -- with English auditory tracts of Godard's philosophical commentaries
> with in his movies
> I feel I miss the visuals when I forced to read the long running
> commentaries
A few of the Dziga-Vertov-Group films were voiced-over in English for
their American/British releases ('Vent d'est' and 'British Sounds' come
immediately to mind -- 'Pravda' too?) -- you can find bootlegs of them
on eMule. Poor quality, but no need to read subtitles. Really though,
voice plays such a vital role in so many of Godard's films that
"applying" the meaning of the English subtitles to the cadences of the
French voice is probably the better route for watching many of the
films -- an English-dubbed 'Histoire(s) du cinéma' would be disastrous!
craig.
11968
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:13pm
Subject: Re: DVD options
NOW, VOYAGER offers a lot of music tracks, but you can't watch the film
simultaneously.
I like to listen to the emotional weight of the music while watching
the film.
>
> From: "Aaron Graham"
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
>> I wonder if DVD's with the following options will ever be available:
>>
>> -- with musical soundtracks accompanying the visuals but no dialogue
>> I liked to listen to the emotional weight of the music without the
>> interruption of talking
>
> I believe that dvds do actually offer this option once in awhile
> (although lately, I haven't seen too many that do). During passages
> when there are is no music to be heard, often times the composer will
> do commentary.
>
> As mediocre as the following movies may be - except for "The Thing"
> some dvds that offer the option you mention are:
>
> "Way of the Gun" (Christopher McQuarrie)
> "Donnie Brasco" (Mike Newell)
> "Pee Wee's Big Adventure" (Tim Burton; score by Danny Elfman)
> "The Thing" (John Carpenter; score by Ennio Morricone)
>
> I'm sure there's many others.
>
> -Aaron
11969
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:23pm
Subject: RE: Re: DVD options
> A few of the Dziga-Vertov-Group films were voiced-over in English for
> their American/British releases
I think Godard's TV series ("France/Tour/Détour/Deux/Enfants" and
"Six fois deux") were also dubbed. This type of dubbing
(also used on a lot of Marker's films) is the worst, just
adding an English voice track over the French one, making it
very distracting and extremely difficult to understand either
way. But then again, I find Godard and Gorin's voices on
"Letter to Jane" difficult to understand as well.
Jonathan Takagi
11970
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Re: DVD options
I agree. It is interesting to speculate what other techniques might
have been used. I'm not suggesting an alteration (or worse,
a mutilation) but I know that TMC has a contest for young composers
to create soundtracks for some classic films. It would be an
interesting
directorial / editing contest to remove these inter-titles.
(Personally, however, I might have difficulty with this. I really
dislike
it when aI film I like, especially a particular scene is parodied and
the
image is 'ruined.'
I watched SPIDERMAN2 yesterday (POSSIBLE SPOILER) ...
at one point in the movie, a song is played in 'voice-over' that will
always be associated with another movie of a much different time
and place. I found it disruptive and a poor directorial choice for me;
nonetheless, I recognize that most of the younger audience may not know
the connection from the 1969 movie.)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> --with oral tracts of the inter-scene titles in silent movies
> I think it would be interesting to see the movie without the
visual
> interruptions of the titles ... of course, the transitions between
> might be probably be awkward
Elizabeth,
Many times the insertion of a inter-title may be crucial for pace
and dramatic effect in a silent film. The use of inter-titles to link
images together is crucial in a film like Fritz Lang "Spies".
"I saw the man who....", "Who is responsible for this?..."
"Ich."
Michael Worrall
11971
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> So you may not be the American "divin marquis" after all.
Don't ruin the publicity campaign!
> Is (LA PRISONNIERE) at all available here?
I know it has shown in American revival houses with English subtitles.
But I haven't seen it play anywhere for a long time. - Dan
11972
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:35pm
Subject: RE: Re: DVD options
> I watched SPIDERMAN2 yesterday (POSSIBLE SPOILER) ...
> at one point in the movie, a song is played in 'voice-over' that will
> always be associated with another movie of a much different time
> and place. I found it disruptive and a poor directorial choice for me;
> nonetheless, I recognize that most of the younger audience may not know
> the connection from the 1969 movie.)
Haven't seen Spiderman 2 yet, but what you describe
reminds me of the "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" scene
from "Face/Off". I have no love for the original
song/movie, but it still seemed like kind of a childish
move.
11973
From: Michael Lieberman
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:40pm
Subject: Re: Pierrot production history
I believe her suicide attempt was shortly before the making of "Band of Outsiders," though she might've attempted later on.
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:04:10 -0400
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Pierrot production history
> Can anyone provide me with details about the production history of
> "Pierrot le fou" and what happend in Godard's personal life around
> this time? Especially concerning him being disillusioned by film and
> being self-destructive in terms of wanting to create something
> original.
>
> The majority of texts I have read note upon how Pierrot is an end, but
> I would like to know what went on in Godard's personal life at the
> time (especially mentally) and if there was something reflecting in
> the production.
His marriage to Anna Karina was on the brink of implosion during the
production -- was it during this film, or 'Alphaville' previously or
'Made in U.S.A.' / 'Anticipation' later that she attempted suicide?
craig.
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11974
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:42pm
Subject: RE: Welcome Back, Mr. McDonald (Koki Mitani)
I enjoyed this movie shown at the SD Public Library film group
(about 30 people).
When talking about scripts / screenwriting, I often say it is important
to understand that your first few scripts have to be given away
(I don't mean sell them for nothing; rather understand that they will be
greatly modified to fit everyone else's interest. Hopefully one's
talent
remains and is eventually recognized and one will be able to tell
their own intimate story eventually.) Of course, the fact that the
script
is for radio just accentuates the tremendous script changes possible,
after all... they're only words!
> While we are the subject of films that should be better known:
> Welcome Back, Mr. McDonald (Koki Mitani, 1997)
> This Japanese film just showed up on DVD at the video store. It is a
> farce
> about the making of a live radio drama, and all the misadventures of
> the
> participants, set in Tokyo. It is a good deal of fun. All of the
> performers manage to
> stay madly in character, as they collide with each other.
> Koki Mitani seems to be mainly a screenwriter and playwright. This is
> one of
> 2 scripts he has also directed in recent years.
>
> Mike Grost
11975
From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hitchcock/Diabolique (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
In a message dated 7/8/04 7:19:31 AM, MG4273@a... writes:
> "Have you considered sending your wife out to be dry-cleaned?"
>
I read this as a child and always dreamed of making a movie where a woman
does indeed get sent to the dry cleaner's sparking a Hitchcockian play of
perversities. I guess Lori Petty's air shower in Tank Girl comes close.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
11976
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 3:55pm
Subject: 'celluloid film' is altered
Interesting comment. What it suggests to me is that
people are offended that the 'celluloid film' is altered
by digital means. Certainly altering film is historical
with the tinting, the dissolves, etc. But the film stock
itself is altered and tediously worked on in a way that
can 'ruin' the film. People unfamiliar with digital
techniques may not appreciate how tedious it can
be to do these renderings (although improving
by the day). Of course, the permanent copy is
always preserved.
> From: samadams@e...
>
> I saw IRMA around the time French critics got up
> in arms about Jean-Pierre Jeunet's AMELIE for
> using digital technology to alter Montmartre, and
> all I could think was, "They're worried that
> *his* Montmartre is artificial?" The blatant
> artifice of IRMA is one of its attractions for
> me, as in a certain way is its overlong running
> time: it's excessive without being indulgent, or
> something. I recall actually preferring
> MacLaine's performance to that in THE APARTMENT,
> but that may be reactionary since I've never
> cared overly for the latter.
11977
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
I don't know FRENCH. Which is the better translation,
The CROW or The RAVEN? I think THE RAVEN is a
more alluring bird than the crow and better fits
the story.
11978
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> I don't understand what you mean by "good taste". Actually
the
> entire film is in the worst of taste (heavy-handed, wallowing in
the
> sordid with such wretched excess that it becomes laughable)
from
> characterization and dialogue down to most of the direction.
(Also do
> remember that at the time it was considered extremely
powerful
> horror/suspense and even shocking)
JP, I'll try to explaim what I mean --I haven't had my coffee yet. I
do take in consideration the time it was made, but I always felt
like the scene in which the body is found in the pool-- the way the
camera pans away from the pool and the characters talk/refer to
the act as shying away from the themes/images. This
"discreetness:, if you will, makes the over-the -top ending all the
more ridiculous. The shock ending is what I remember as
wallowing in excess. I could be using the wrong term, and I
could be misquoting the scene; I haven't seen it since 1993. But
I remember sitting there in the theater thinking about the tepid &
timid film compared to Hitchcock or Lang.
. The remake at least avoids the
> stupidity of the original. I didn't say I liked it particularly, just
> that I preferred it to the Clouzot, which is damning with (very)
> faint praise. I remember little about it, but what you wrote about
> gratuitous camera moves is probably true.
I wasn't questioning you or infering you liked it, I was just curious
as to your opinion which I value very much.
Michael Worrall
11979
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:58pm
Subject: Hitchcock/Clouzot (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> The undeniable fact that Hitch was inspired by the BO
success of
> LES DIABOLIQUES and saw the possibilities of a new kind of
suspense
> doesn't necessarily mean that he admired Clouzot and his
film. He was
> a professional and pros as a rule do not bad-mouth
colleagues in
> public statements
This is exactly what I was thinking, and that it does not
necessarily translate into meaning that Hitchcock liked the film.
Michael Worrall
11980
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:00pm
Subject: A PLACE IN THE SUN STEVENS
The commentary track for APITS relates the story about
STEVENS challenging the TV screening of APITS with
commercial interruptions. He felt that the emotional
integrity of the story was broken by the 'little films
in between the big story' (my quotes). The court ruled that
the emotional strength and force of the story was so great
that commercials would not interrupt the experience of the story.
What a test case!?
--The story is so good, nothing can disrupt it.
--The story is of relatively contemporary time and place
as the TV screening. Watching those 'pre-tech' films
really gets an interruption when modern commercials
are interspersed. What if the test case had been of another
time and place (like one of those biblical epics)?
--Given the short attention span of modern audiences
coupled with the multiple streams of info, perhaps nothing
can be considered disruptive.
It would be interesting to have another try at the court's
interpretation of 'emotional integrity.'
11981
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I don't know FRENCH. Which is the better translation,
> The CROW or The RAVEN? I think THE RAVEN is a
> more alluring bird than the crow and better fits
> the story.
I've always seen it referred to as LE CORBEAU - is that what you're
asking?
Criterion is off-and-on with original titles. When a translation
wouldn't be recognizable to viewers, they go with the original: I
VITELLONI, RASHOMON, QUAI DES ORFEVRES, etc. But LES ENFANTS DU
PARADIS becomes CHILDREN OF PARADISE...and even stranger still,
another Carné film, LE QUAI DES BRUMES will be called PORT OF
SHADOWS. I've never heard of the film being called anything other
than LE QUAI DES BRUMES.
-Jaime
11982
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:14pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
I just think that RAVEN and CROW (used by Bill K) have two
different connotations. Raven is feminine and alluring;
Crow is masculine and attacking. I don't know why
I think this other than Poe's THE RAVEN and Hitchcock's
THE BIRDS.
As an English speaker looking at titles/translations, I
would be attracted to THE RAVEN more than THE CROW.
As I remember LE CORBEAU, The Raven is more fitting,
tho a case could be made for The Crow.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
rote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
> wrote:
> > I don't know FRENCH. Which is the better translation,
> > The CROW or The RAVEN? I think THE RAVEN is a
> > more alluring bird than the crow and better fits
> > the story.
>
> I've always seen it referred to as LE CORBEAU - is that what you're
> asking?
>
> Criterion is off-and-on with original titles. When a translation
> wouldn't be recognizable to viewers, they go with the original: I
> VITELLONI, RASHOMON, QUAI DES ORFEVRES, etc. But LES ENFANTS DU
> PARADIS becomes CHILDREN OF PARADISE...and even stranger still,
> another Carné film, LE QUAI DES BRUMES will be called PORT OF
> SHADOWS. I've never heard of the film being called anything other
> than LE QUAI DES BRUMES.
>
> -Jaime
11983
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Irma La Douce
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:
> I saw IRMA around the time French critics got up
> in arms about Jean-Pierre Jeunet's AMELIE for
> using digital technology to alter Montmartre, and
> all I could think was, "They're worried that
> *his* Montmartre is artificial?"
But he built it -- using forced-perspective sets. Even the Cinzano
ashtrays on the cafe tables are real.
The blatant
> artifice of IRMA is one of its attractions for
> me, as in a certain way is its overlong running
> time: it's excessive without being indulgent, or
> something. I recall actually preferring
> MacLaine's performance to that in THE APARTMENT,
> but that may be reactionary since I've never
> cared overly for the latter.
>
> Sam
I've always assumed that The Apartment is the theories of C. Wright
Mills, a sociologist of the time who studied corporate capitalism,
into images. With some Kracauer thrown in: Christmas Eve in that NY
bar or whatever it is looks like the Weimar Republic.
11984
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
Michael wrote: The shock ending is what I remember as
> wallowing in excess.
Well, William Castle liked it!
Also, I've always liked the little boy who says he just saw
[character not identified to avoid spoiling it for Mystery Mike]
again at the end. It's completely irrational, but somehow very
satisfying.
11985
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I just think that RAVEN and CROW (used by Bill K) have two
> different connotations. Raven is feminine and alluring;
> Crow is masculine and attacking. I don't know why
> I think this other than Poe's THE RAVEN and Hitchcock's
> THE BIRDS.
> As an English speaker looking at titles/translations, I
> would be attracted to THE RAVEN more than THE CROW.
> As I remember LE CORBEAU, The Raven is more fitting,
> tho a case could be made for The Crow.
What kind of situation would make the translation necessary?
I loved reading about how Wong Kar-wai's DAYS OF BEING WILD used the
title of the Hong Kong translation of REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE: A FEI
JING JUEN.
When THE TESTAMENT OF DR. MABUSE was first released (in severely
modified form) in the US, it was called THE LAST WILL OF DR. MABUSE,
which the DVD commentator remarked (and I agree) was actually a very
fitting way to communicate what Mabuse was doing in the movie -
exercising his "will" through the "will" he was writing.
-Jaime
11986
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> I don't know FRENCH. Which is the better translation,
> The CROW or The RAVEN? I think THE RAVEN is a
> more alluring bird than the crow and better fits
> the story.
I know French and English but I'm not sure what the difference
between a crow and a raven is. I know we sometimes have to eat crow
but never raven. I think crow is a more generic term for various crow-
like or raven-like black birds (all belonging to the
genus "corvus"). "Raven" does sound better than "crow" in a title --
although "The Raven" will inevitably connote Poe and Roger Corbeau -
oops sorry, Corman.
11987
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Hitchcock/Clouzot (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
> > The undeniable fact that Hitch was inspired by the BO
> success of
> > LES DIABOLIQUES and saw the possibilities of a new kind of
> suspense
> > doesn't necessarily mean that he admired Clouzot and his
> film. He was
> > a professional and pros as a rule do not bad-mouth
> colleagues in
> > public statements
>
> This is exactly what I was thinking, and that it does not
> necessarily translate into meaning that Hitchcock liked the film.
>
> Michael Worrall
Well, I'm not a professional, so let me add that the remake, by
making the lesbian subtext of the original boringly explicit, does
not strike me as intelligent: "knowing," like The Amazing Mr. Ripley,
would be more like it -- although I think that film is much better
than the new Diabolique. I'm sure there's a remake of Strangers on a
Train in the works where Guy and Bruno have sex -- which,
incidentally, they do in the book.
Apropos of nothing, we just had a mini-Clouzot retro at the
Cinematheque in LA. What amazes me, thinking back to the beginnings
of this group, when I brought Clouzot and Wilder up as examples of
filmmakers who were regularly condemned by auteurists for being bad
people, hence bad filmmakers, is that we're even having a discussion
of them on the merits, with some members chiming in in their defense.
Friedkin is a third director whose name, if it came up at all, was
usually mud in those days. As someone who likes all three, I'm glad
that we're at least talking about them!
11988
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Michael wrote: The shock ending is what I remember as
> > wallowing in excess.
>
> Well, William Castle liked it!
>
He would!!
>
>Also, I've always liked the little boy who says he just saw
> [character not identified to avoid spoiling it for Mystery Mike]
> again at the end. It's completely irrational, but somehow very
> satisfying.
That's the same gimmick he used at the end of LE CORBEAU. A
totally arbitrary and gratuitous trick to leave the story open-ended
and confuse the viewer.
11989
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: 'celluloid film' is altered
> Interesting comment. What it suggests to me is that
> people are offended that the 'celluloid film' is altered
> by digital means. Certainly altering film is historical
> with the tinting, the dissolves, etc. But the film stock
> itself is altered and tediously worked on in a way that
> can 'ruin' the film. People unfamiliar with digital
> techniques may not appreciate how tedious it can
> be to do these renderings (although improving
> by the day). Of course, the permanent copy is
> always preserved.
I don't think the problem is desecration of the celluloid original, but
the fact that nothing's being photographed, and it is photography (if
the terms of "cinematography" have by now changed) that some (including
myself) might argue is what instills in cinema its capacity to arrest
-- even in the case of trick shots or special effects, celluloid says:
"This happened."
As for 'Amélie' (or, more exactly, 'Le Fabuleux destin d'Amélie
Poulain'), my own reasons for disliking the film stem from its
pointless nostalgia, and too-precious set-decorative magic (which isn't
the same as mise en scène). Likewise, in regard to its actual mise en
scène, the movie comes off all "zappeur"-like, no attention span -- and
unaware that it's not just "good ideas" strung together (Amélie's
cut-up trail, the upholstered television set -- a symbol which says
more about Jeunet than about what he thinks he's saying about its
owner, or at least, its owner's world) which make a great film. A
great film, like 'Jules et Jim,' for example, -- the John Madden-effect
of circling the fly on the windowpane during the excerpt is so gauche I
want to puke; so pompous and peacocking because any attentive
movie-watcher would have noticed the fly on the windowpane on his or
her own, and Jeunet's calling attention to it, TelePrompting the
moment, ruins the magic and turns the private observation we'd
treasured but never been so crass as to parade, into a stupid, public
placard. Get Gas Here, $1.49!!!
craig.
11990
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Hitchcock/Clouzot (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> Apropos of nothing, we just had a mini-Clouzot retro at the
> Cinematheque in LA. What amazes me, thinking back to the beginnings
> of this group, when I brought Clouzot and Wilder up as examples of
> filmmakers who were regularly condemned by auteurists for being bad
> people, hence bad filmmakers, is that we're even having a
discussion
> of them on the merits, with some members chiming in in their
defense.
Wilder condemned by auteurists for being a bad person? When? By
whom? On what grounds? Must have been before my time. Personally I
have always loved Wilder. Clouzot I don't care much about but it has
nothing to do with the kind of person he was.
11991
From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:11pm
Subject: RE: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
The main problem with translating "CORBEAU" is that the French word both
refers to a kind of bird and, figuratively, to someone who writes anonymous
letters to the police to denounce other people. The translation of this
figurative sense would thus be "THE INFORMER," which, well, could be
confusing.
That being said, I think that "Corbeau" is a category of bird (=Raven),
whereas strictly speaking, a crow ("corneille" in French) is a smaller
raven.
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11992
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
Similar for GASLIGHT.
from T DIRKS comprehensive review:
Its (Gaslight) title is derived from two items: the frequent
dimming and flickering of the gaslights, and the phrase
"to gaslight" someone (to deliberately drive someone insane
by manipulating their environment).
I wonder how if "to gaslight" was the impetus for
using the cinematic gaslights in the story.
Thanks for the info about 'the informer.'
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan
> The main problem with translating "CORBEAU" is that the French word both =
> refers to a kind of bird and, figuratively, to someone who writes anonymo=
us
> letters to the police to denounce other people. The translation of this
> figurative sense would thus be "THE INFORMER," which, well, could be
> confusing.
>
> That being said, I think that "Corbeau" is a category of bird (=Raven),
> whereas strictly speaking, a crow ("corneille" in French) is a smaller
> raven.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bloquez les fenêtres pop-up, c'est gratuit ! http://toolbar.msn.fr
11993
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Hitchcock/Clouzot (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- Michael Worrall
>
> This is exactly what I was thinking, and that it
> does not
> necessarily translate into meaning that Hitchcock
> liked the film.
>
But on another level I think Hithcock may very well
have liked the film quite a lot. The basic set-up --
two people plotting to murder third party with a twist
in the second act and a surprise ending -- is very
much in keeping with a typical episode of the "Alfred
Hitchcock present" television series.
Overall "Diabolique" is modertately effective at first
glance, but pretty damned corny if you think about it
for five minutes.
And putting Hitch aside for a minute --Kubrick was
over the moon about it, and modelled much of "The
Shining" after it.
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11994
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan
> The main problem with translating "CORBEAU" is that the French word
both
> refers to a kind of bird and, figuratively, to someone who writes
anonymous
> letters to the police to denounce other people. The translation of
this
> figurative sense would thus be "THE INFORMER," which, well, could
be
> confusing.
>
> That being said, I think that "Corbeau" is a category of bird
(=Raven),
> whereas strictly speaking, a crow ("corneille" in French) is a
smaller
> raven.
>
I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that the
figurative sense of "corbeau" as a person who writes poison-pen
letters actually derived from Clouzot's movie.... "Corbeau" also used
to be used pejoratively to refer to a catholic priest. It's always
pejorative when used figuratively. There was also an early XXth
century play by Henri Becque called "LES CORBEAUX" that dealt with
crooked businessmen who prey upon the innocent public (if I recall
correctly).
JPC
> _________________________________________________________________
> Bloquez les fenêtres pop-up, c'est gratuit ! http://toolbar.msn.fr
11995
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:15pm
Subject: Translating titles
Samuel Fuller's "Pickup on South Street" (one of his masterpieces)
has just been released in DVD in France under the original French
release title "LE PORT DE LA DROGUE" -- even though there are no
drugs at all in the movie. When the film came out in France,
everything in it relating to communist spies was changed to drug
traffickers (not to offend the then powerful communist party). I have
never seen this French version, which must have required quite a bit
of tampering with the original. I'm curious to know whether the DVD
uses the original or the French version (neither is it clear from the
ad I've seen whether it's a dubbed or subtitled version). Maybe
another Samuel (Brean)can clarify this!
By the way the title "Lost in Translation" was not translated into
French. Neither was "The Ladykillers" (the Coens' remake)-- they just
dropped the "The" as they often do these days ("The Shining"
becoming "Shining"). other not translated recent American titles: BIG
FISH, OPEN RANGE, MONSTER... Sometimes the distributors come up with
a phony substitute English title: "School of Rock" became "Rock
Academy" (the kids like anything sounding American).
There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard that
Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave robbers
in the movie).
JPC
11996
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
> One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard
that
> Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave
robbers
> in the movie).
>
That would be a reference to the original, pre-SF meaning of "body
snatcher," right?
-Jaime
11997
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
> One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard
that
> Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave
robbers
> in the movie).
>
That would be a reference to the original, pre-SF meaning of "body
snatcher," right?
-Jaime
11998
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
> from T DIRKS comprehensive review:
> Its (Gaslight) title is derived from two items: the frequent
> dimming and flickering of the gaslights, and the phrase
> "to gaslight" someone (to deliberately drive someone insane
> by manipulating their environment).
>
> I wonder how if "to gaslight" was the impetus for
> using the cinematic gaslights in the story.
I found something on the net that implied that the usage was derived
from the movie, rather than the other way around. Is there any evidence
that the usage precedes the movie? - Dan
11999
From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:36pm
Subject: RE: Re: Translating titles
> > There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
> > One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> > sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard
>that
> > Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave
>robbers
> > in the movie).
> >
>
>That would be a reference to the original, pre-SF meaning of "body
>snatcher," right?
>
>-Jaime
Indeed: cf. THE BODY SNATCHER by Robert Wise, and the other Burke / Hare
films such as THE FLESH AND THE FIENDS.
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12000
From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:21pm
Subject: RE: Translating titles
>Samuel Fuller's "Pickup on South Street" (one of his masterpieces)
>has just been released in DVD in France under the original French
>release title "LE PORT DE LA DROGUE" -- even though there are no
>drugs at all in the movie. When the film came out in France,
>everything in it relating to communist spies was changed to drug
>traffickers (not to offend the then powerful communist party). I have
>never seen this French version, which must have required quite a bit
>of tampering with the original. I'm curious to know whether the DVD
>uses the original or the French version (neither is it clear from the
>ad I've seen whether it's a dubbed or subtitled version). Maybe
>another Samuel (Brean)can clarify this!
The French PICK UP ON SOUTH STREET DVD was released last month by Carlotta
Films. I haven't got it, but I know that the French audio track is included.
I heard some sound clips on a radio show ("Mauvais genres," France Culture)
the other day, with comparisons between both versions. The French one
replaced the allusions to Communism by dialogues about drug addiction.
Here's a test of the DVD on a French site.
http://www.dvdnet-fr.com/lire-test-dvd-549.html
>By the way the title "Lost in Translation" was not translated into
>French. Neither was "The Ladykillers" (the Coens' remake)-- they just
>dropped the "The" as they often do these days ("The Shining"
>becoming "Shining"). other not translated recent American titles: BIG
>FISH, OPEN RANGE, MONSTER... Sometimes the distributors come up with
>a phony substitute English title: "School of Rock" became "Rock
>Academy" (the kids like anything sounding American).
I must say I'm horrified by this strong tendancy from the French
distributors. Even very simple titles (one or two words) are no longer
translated: I, ROBOT, for example.
It's even more absurd to change the original title in English into ANOTHER
English title: for example, AIRHEADS became RADIO REBELS (oops, one my
guilty pleasures), CRUEL INTENTIONS became SEXE INTENTIONS (which doesn't
mean anything in French!), WILD THINGS became SEXCRIMES, and more recently,
Ken Loach's AE FOND KISS will be released under the "French" title JUST A
KISS. There are (sadly) many examples like this.
There are also very good translations. Godard said that he was more familiar
with Borzage's film THE RIVER under its French title, LA FEMME AU CORBEAU
(here we go again!). LE FLEUVE, for him, only refers to the French title of
the Renoir film. I think it is possible, in some cases, to come up with
inventive titles that are true to the spirit of the original one.
There's a fascinating number of westerns whose French title has the word
"desert" in it, even though it's not in the original title:
THE SEARCHERS = LA PRISONNIERE DU DESERT
COLORADO TERRITORY = LA FILLE DU DESERT
THREE GODFATHERS = LE FILS DU DESERT
ALONG THE GREAT DIVIDE = LE DESERT DE LA PEUR
There's a passage about title translations in Alain Paucard's book "Défense
de la série B," which I read some time ago: that's where I picked up this
"desert" thing.
Samuel.
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