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12001


From: Paul Gallagher
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan
wrote:

> That being said, I think that "Corbeau" is a category of bird
(=Raven),
> whereas strictly speaking, a crow ("corneille" in French) is a
smaller
> raven.

To complicate matters further, Poe's "The Raven" is translated as "Le
corbeau.

I suppose the way to find out French usage would be to point to
a crow and ask a French speaker what to call it. However, I
asked a French person how to say "crow" in French, and she
didn't know the word.

For what's it worth, here's a list of French names for crows
and ravens.

Corbeau ŕ queue courte (Corvus rhipidurus, Fan-tailed Raven)
Corbeau brun (Corvus ruficollis, Brown-necked Raven)
Corbeau familier (Corvus splendens, House Crow)
Corbeau freux (Corvus frugilegus, Rook)
Corbeau pie (Corvus albus, Pied Crow)
Corneille mantelée (Corvus cornix, Hooded Crow)
Corneille noire (Corvus c. corone, Carrion Crow)
Grand Corbeau (Corvus corax, Common Raven)
Choucas des tours (Corvus monedula, Jackdaw)

Apparently, ravens are rare in France. The most common crow in
Europe is the Carrion Crow ("Corneille noire"), which looks
just the like the common American Crow.

Paul
12002


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:12pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan wrote:
.
>
> There are also very good translations. Godard said that he was more
familiar
> with Borzage's film THE RIVER under its French title, LA FEMME AU
CORBEAU
> (here we go again!).


Generations of French film lovers (going back to the twenties) knew
and worshipped Borzage's THE RIVER as LA FEMME AU CORBEAU. It was a
favorite of the "Revue du Cinema" crowd, and later Kyrou kept raving
about it. For many years I didn't even know the English title.

LE FLEUVE, for him, only refers to the French title of
> the Renoir film.

There is the Borzage, then the Renoir, then the Rydell (1984) and
now there is Tsai's River.

> There's a fascinating number of westerns whose French title has
the word
> "desert" in it, even though it's not in the original title:
>
> THE SEARCHERS = LA PRISONNIERE DU DESERT
> COLORADO TERRITORY = LA FILLE DU DESERT
> THREE GODFATHERS = LE FILS DU DESERT
> ALONG THE GREAT DIVIDE = LE DESERT DE LA PEUR
>
>
> Samuel.
>
Well you could add western titles with the word "Charge" in them
in French but not in the original:

LA CHARGE FANTASTIQUE = THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON
LA CHARGE HEROIQUE = SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON
LA CHARGE DE LA HUITIEME BRIGADE=A DISTANT TRUMPET
LA CHARGE DES TUNIQUES BLEUES = THE LAST FRONTIER
and add to that a non-western: LA CHARGE VICTORIEUSE= RED BADGE OF
COURAGE
Of course "LA CHARGE FANTASTIQUE" was copied on the French release
title of Ford's STAGECOACH (LA CHEVAUCHEE FANTASTIQUE)and LA CHARGE
HEROIQUE was also a variation on it. In the old days no one in
France called STAGECOACH by its original title and few people knew
it. When Ford came to Paris and was interviewed by French journalists
they asked him about his famous western "The Fantastic Ride" and he
had no idea what they were talking about (a true anecdote).
>JPC
12003


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
>
> > There is a long history of absurd translations of original
titles.
> > One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> > sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard
> that
> > Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave
> robbers
> > in the movie).
> >
>
> That would be a reference to the original, pre-SF meaning of "body
> snatcher," right?
>
> -Jaime

yes of course. Someone in the distributor's office must have
picked up an old English-French dictionary and looked up "body
snatcher". I had one when I was in school that translated it
as "profanateur de sepulture". So they used that, not caring that no
one snatches bodies from graves in the movie. And curiously nobody
ever wondered (aloud at least) at this strange title. But translated
titles are readily accepted by viewers even when they're meaningless.
In English, "THE FOUR HUNDRED BLOWS" is a case in point. (it's a
literal translation of an expression that has nothing to do
with "blows").
12004


From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:56pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
 
I don't know which came first reference the term GASLIGHT

My oldest dictionary is from 1989; in storage, I have one from
1970's. It is useful for writers who write of different eras to have
a time-appropriate dictionary on hand. It is really fun to watch
movies from the 20's-30's-40's and hear the venacular of the
times.



--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > from T DIRKS comprehensive review:
> > Its (Gaslight) title is derived from two items: the frequent
> > dimming and flickering of the gaslights, and the phrase
> > "to gaslight" someone (to deliberately drive someone insane
> > by manipulating their environment).
> >
> > I wonder how if "to gaslight" was the impetus for
> > using the cinematic gaslights in the story.
>
> I found something on the net that implied that the usage was derived
> from the movie, rather than the other way around. Is there any evidence
> that the usage precedes the movie? - Dan
12005


From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
> But translated titles are readily accepted by viewers even when
> they're meaningless.
> In English, "THE FOUR HUNDRED BLOWS" is a case in point. (it's a
> literal translation of an expression that has nothing to do
> with "blows").

What is the exact "meaning" of the French phrase? It has something to
do with being a hellion, or "kicking up a storm," or something -- non?
Also (I know this sounds pedagogical) could you use the phrase in a
sentence? Even when I've read what "les quatre cents coups" means,
idiomatically, I've never read an example of how one might typically
use the phrase in context..

craig.
12006


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"

> In English, "THE FOUR HUNDRED BLOWS" is a case in point. (it's a
> literal translation of an expression that has nothing to do
> with "blows").

Now that you're brought that up, I know it means "to raise hell," but
how did it come to mean that? Was "coups" inaccurately translated?
"Quatre cents" obviously means "Four hundred."

-Jaime
12007


From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
>
> Now that you're brought that up, I know it means "to raise hell," but
> how did it come to mean that? Was "coups" inaccurately translated?
> "Quatre cents" obviously means "Four hundred."

And I'll add to Jaime's question -- how many different meanings does
the word "coup" have in French? I've always been curious, for example,
what the literal translations were for 'Le Coup du berger' (which has
been translated in English, at least according to IMDB, as "Fool's
Mate"), and 'Coup de torchon' (which has been translated as "Clean
Slate") -- even if "clean slate" is the idiomatic translation, I'd like
to know what a precise, even if foolish sounding, rendering would be.

craig.
12008


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> > But translated titles are readily accepted by viewers even when
> > they're meaningless.
> > In English, "THE FOUR HUNDRED BLOWS" is a case in point. (it's a
> > literal translation of an expression that has nothing to do
> > with "blows").
>
> What is the exact "meaning" of the French phrase? It has something
to
> do with being a hellion, or "kicking up a storm," or something --
non?
> Also (I know this sounds pedagogical) could you use the phrase in a
> sentence? Even when I've read what "les quatre cents coups" means,
> idiomatically, I've never read an example of how one might
typically
> use the phrase in context..
>
> craig.

Well, yes. A person might say of a grown man: "Il a fait les 400
coups quand il etait jeune mais maintenant il est plus serieux." The
phrase is most often used for unruly or mischivious children (Antoine
Doinel), teens or young adults. It suggests various degrees of
naughtiness/recklessness but related to fooling around and having fun
rather than to mean or criminal behavior.
JPC
12009


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Anne Nolan"
wrote:
> Similar for GASLIGHT.
>
> from T DIRKS comprehensive review:
> Its (Gaslight) title is derived from two items: the frequent
> dimming and flickering of the gaslights, and the phrase
> "to gaslight" someone (to deliberately drive someone insane
> by manipulating their environment).


I suspect the reverse -- Boyer oes it to Bergman in the movie so some
joker made the transfer to "gaslighting." Possibly Lord Buckley,
whose famous hipster Scrooge talks about "gaslightin' spooks!" Highly
appropriate in that case, of course -- the spooks DO "gaslight" him.
But I'd guess the term started with the play. I'm still looking
forward to seeing the English version made before Cukor's. DE says
it's better!
12010


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:22pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
 
It is really fun to watch
> movies from the 20's-30's-40's and hear the venacular of the
> times.

And irritating to hear recent usage in older settings. An example
I've cited here is "What?" as an all-purpose question addressed to
someone who's being reticent. It's definitely something that happened
in the last 20 years, and now I hear it in dialogue of many eras --
wouldn't be surpruised if it's in Troy and Arthur. It even bothered
me hearing it at the start of the Texas Chainsaw remake, which is a
period film set in the 70s. People didn't SAY "What?" like that in
the 70s.
12011


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:33pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN
 
An enigmatic refrence: the crow that is the "extra shot" at the end
of Histoire(s) du cinema 3A. Since Godard has said earlier that the
only wartime French film that "resisted" was Dames du Bois de
Boulogne (because of the pun on "Je lutte"), I assume he's using it
to symbolize those that didn't. But of course anonymous letter
writing, very common under Vichy from what I hear, seems more
blatantly an anti-Nazi theme than the supposed Naziism of
portraying "the corruption of French society," which in any event was
Clouzot's permanent theme.

Speaking of enigmatic references, here's as a question for JP: The
only reference to the war in Le corbeau is a Vichy soldier glimpsed
thru the window of the schoolroom where they're doing their
handwriting samples to see which of them is the Crow. Not mentioned,
just glimpsed standing outside the window. ?

And yes, JP, there are Wilder haters among American auteurists.
Sarris was one of them till the late films started appearing,
displaying the romanticism that had supposedly hitherto been muted
by "cynicism." Me, I like him all the way through.
12012


From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:36pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
 
I always thought that "to gaslight" was a reference to Patrick Hamilton's
play, and its subsequent film versions, and not the other way around.
The play was called "Gas Light" (1938) - two words. When it came to the US in
1941, it was re-titled "Angel Street". Vincent Price had his greatest stage
triumph as the menacing, evil husband. This was three years before his screen
debut in "Laura" (1944). The Cukor film version of "Gaslight" is just
extraordinary, IMHO.
Hamilton also wrote "Rope" (1929), the source of the Hitchcock film.

Was fascinated by the information on the French words for crows and ravens.
The Raven is native in both the North temperate zone of Old and New Worlds.
It is the same species of bird in France and the US. So the movie and Poe's
poem are presumably about the same bird.
In Lansing, Michigan's "Potter Park Zoo", two of the best loved residents for
many years were "Charlie the Crow" and "Poe the Raven".
And I'm still mourning Elvis, the truly gigantic bison who lived there. He
loved kids, and always hoped they would bring him apples.

Mike Grost
12013


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller

> Well, yes. A person might say of a grown man: "Il a
> fait les 400
> coups quand il etait jeune mais maintenant il est
> plus serieux." The
> phrase is most often used for unruly or mischivious
> children (Antoine
> Doinel), teens or young adults. It suggests various
> degrees of
> naughtiness/recklessness but related to fooling
> around and having fun
> rather than to mean or criminal behavior.
> JPC
>

There's a Melies film calles "Les 400 Coup du Diable."

Also, I understand that "va en Bateau" means something
on the order of "to send up" or "spoof" or "stage a
prank" thus giving "Celine et Julie va en Bateau" a
metaphoric as well as literal meaning -- which it gets
in its grand finale.

The image of the ghost rio floating by in a boat
alongside our heroines is one of the most beautiful in
all of cinema.
>


__________________________________________________
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12014


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
> wrote:
> > > But translated titles are readily accepted by viewers even when
> > > they're meaningless.
> > > In English, "THE FOUR HUNDRED BLOWS" is a case in point. (it's a
> > > literal translation of an expression that has nothing to do
> > > with "blows").
> >
> > What is the exact "meaning" of the French phrase? It has something
> to
> > do with being a hellion, or "kicking up a storm," or something --
> non?
> > Also (I know this sounds pedagogical) could you use the phrase in a
> > sentence? Even when I've read what "les quatre cents coups" means,
> > idiomatically, I've never read an example of how one might
> typically
> > use the phrase in context..
> >
> > craig.
>
> Well, yes. A person might say of a grown man: "Il a fait les 400
> coups quand il etait jeune mais maintenant il est plus serieux." The
> phrase is most often used for unruly or mischivious children (Antoine
> Doinel), teens or young adults. It suggests various degrees of
> naughtiness/recklessness but related to fooling around and having fun
> rather than to mean or criminal behavior.
> JPC

But how did it come to mean that?

-Jaime
12015


From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
> Also, I understand that "va en Bateau" means something
> on the order of "to send up" or "spoof" or "stage a
> prank" thus giving "Celine et Julie va en Bateau" a
> metaphoric as well as literal meaning -- which it gets
> in its grand finale.

I'd be interested to hear more on this too -- I'd read that "va/vont en
bateau" is also slang for meaning "lose one's mind" / "go nuts" /
"descend into madness" / "go cuckoo" -- or, maybe more appropriately,
"go up the river." (If that's even an actual idiomatic equivalent for
'go nuts,' and I'm not just making it up right now.)

craig.
12016


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> >
> > Now that you're brought that up, I know it means "to raise hell,"
but
> > how did it come to mean that? Was "coups" inaccurately
translated?
> > "Quatre cents" obviously means "Four hundred."
>
> And I'll add to Jaime's question -- how many different meanings
does
> the word "coup" have in French? I've always been curious, for
example,
> what the literal translations were for 'Le Coup du berger' (which
has
> been translated in English, at least according to IMDB, as "Fool's
> Mate"), and 'Coup de torchon' (which has been translated as "Clean
> Slate") -- even if "clean slate" is the idiomatic translation, I'd
like
> to know what a precise, even if foolish sounding, rendering would
be.
>
> craig.

Let me put my lexicographer's hat back on. "Coup" has perhaps two
dozen different meanings in French, only one of them being "blow" and
many of them not easily translated into English. "Coup" in LE COUP DU
BERGER" is close to the meaning of "coup" in the phrase "faire les
400 coups". "faire un coup" always refers to an action that is
reprehensible or devious or nasty in some way."Who done it?" is "Qui
a fait le coup?")... "Torchon" means "dish towel"
or "dustcloth". "Donner un coup de torchon" means to dust, clean up,
but also, figuratively, to get rid of undesirable characters (it
often used to be used to describe the police cleaning up a dangerous
neighborhood, arresting suspects in a dragnet, that sort of things. A
similar phrase is "un coup de balais") In the film "Coup de torchon"
the Noiret character is a police chief who gets rid of undesirable
characters in his own not-too-legal manner, so "Clean Slate" was not
such a bad translation. But the phrase just cannot be translated
literally.

That said, I have never seen "Le Coup du berger" and have no idea
what it refers to. And I never understood the French release title
of "Odds Against Tomorrow": "Le Coup de l'escalier". Maybe Samuel
knows!
JPC
12017


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:03am
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:

> >
>
> There's a Melies film calles "Les 400 Coup du Diable."
>
> Also, I understand that "va en Bateau" means something
> on the order of "to send up" or "spoof" or "stage a
> prank" thus giving "Celine et Julie va en Bateau" a
> metaphoric as well as literal meaning -- which it gets
> in its grand finale.
>
> Sorry david, but you are mistaken. You are thinking of the
phrase "mener en bateau" not "aller en bateau'. "Celine et Julie vont
en bateau" just means "C and J go boating". However there is a sly
little joke hidden in there. The title refers to an old silly kid
joke that goes like this:

"Pince-me et pince-moi vont dans un bateau. Pince-mi tombe a l'eau.
Qu'est-ce qui reste?" ("Pince-mi falls into the water. Who's left?")
This is a question you ask the other guy, and he or she is supposed
to answer "pince-moi", which means "pinch me" and so you pinch the
other guy.

> Now you know everything about Rivette's mind.

JPC
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
12018


From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:08am
Subject: contemporary language in old films
 
I wouldn't be surprised if some script doctors working on remakes today
of 'period pieces' are told modernize it with contemporary language.

And here is another problem in reverse...

modern faces in old period pieces... old age characters of period
pieces
played by modern actors with face lifts.

on the other hand

Robert Redford does not look like a contemporary well-to-do executive
because he has not had the ubiquitous face lift of his contemporary
generation in real life. ( An admirable personal choice given the
risks.)
Is Redford limited to roles in either a pre-plastic surgery time or a
character unlikely to have plastic surgery (like a Hollywood movie
star?!)
where his age appropriate face does not clash with the rest of the
image?

It was probably a matter of editing, but early on in The Clearing
there is a close up of Redford that looks tired, worn, strained. I
would have
saved it for later in the film to show the effect of his experience over
the course of the kidnapping.




Elizabeth
>> It is really fun to watch
>> movies from the 20's-30's-40's and hear the venacular of the
>> times.

Bill
> And irritating to hear recent usage in older settings. An example
> I've cited here is "What?" as an all-purpose question addressed to
> someone who's being reticent. It's definitely something that happened
> in the last 20 years, and now I hear it in dialogue of many eras --
> wouldn't be surpruised if it's in Troy and Arthur. It even bothered
> me hearing it at the start of the Texas Chainsaw remake, which is a
> period film set in the 70s. People didn't SAY "What?" like that in
> the 70s.
>
12019


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:25am
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley" <> wrote:
> But how did it come to mean that?
>
> -Jaime

I have no idea. Like for countless familiar phrases the origin is at
best murky. "400" is a way of saying "many, a lot". "36" often does
too in French.
12020


From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:36am
Subject: Re: Clouzot LE CORBEAU THE RAVEN GASLIGHT
 
From a website called "Helen's World of Borderline Personality
Disorders":

GASLIGHTING

After the 1944 film of the same name (Gaslight), in which Ingrid
Bergman plays a Victorian newlywed who, through a devious series of
manipulations (e.g., slowly dimming the gaslights) by her mentally
ill husband, is slowly persuaded that she and not he is the
unbalanced spouse.

Many folks with BPD or BPD traits are extremely invested in denying
the level of their dysfunction -- personality disorders are "ego-
syntonic", or viewed by the individual as a natural and necessary way
to think and be. Borderlines may wage a permanent war with all their
loved ones as to "who is really the sick one here?"

Blatant denial of events or conversations that have occurred, endless
circular conversations on who-did-what-when, and actually changing or
removing physical evidence of dysfunctional behaviors are all
gaslighting techniques.

It's a commonplace in the psychiatric community that the spouse or
partner of someone with BPD is usually the first to present
clinically, worried about "going mad" themself.
12021


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:44am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
>> It is really fun to watch
> >> movies from the 20's-30's-40's and hear the venacular of the
> >> times.
>
> Bill
> > And irritating to hear recent usage in older settings. An example
> > I've cited here is "What?" as an all-purpose question addressed to
> > someone who's being reticent. It's definitely something that
happened
> > in the last 20 years, and now I hear it in dialogue of many eras -
-
> > wouldn't be surpruised if it's in Troy and Arthur. It even
bothered
> > me hearing it at the start of the Texas Chainsaw remake, which is
a
> > period film set in the 70s. People didn't SAY "What?" like that in
> > the 70s.
> >

Well it's not clear to me who made the above statement, but this is
a very interesting subject and my view of it is that it is quite
impossible for a movie to recreate the speech of the past -- even a
recent past, like the fifties, say. Because no one really knows or
cares how people spoke then, and if they did it would be incredibly
difficult to change the way they speak. This would also apply to how
people looked -- watch an absolute masterpiece like Ruiz's TIME
REGAINED and laugh at how incredibly anachronistic women and their
speech look and sound. You have to just live with it. Just as in a
DeMille biblical saga.
JPC
12022


From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
> Let me put my lexicographer's hat back on. "Coup" has perhaps two
> dozen different meanings in French....

Fascinating stuff! I get the sense of "a wipe" or "a touch" (or a
"dab" or a "blot"?) perhaps from the word sometimes, based on what
you've said...

> That said, I have never seen "Le Coup du berger" and have no idea
> what it refers to.

It's the name of an early (1956) Rivette short.

craig.
12023


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:48am
Subject: Robert Redford (was: contemporary language)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> I wouldn't be surprised if some script doctors working on remakes today
> of 'period pieces' are told modernize it with contemporary language.

The most embarrassing example of a period film using contemporary
slang is Besson's JOAN OF ARC. Not Bresson's. Besson's. But then,
there are so many things wrong with that movie.

> Is Redford limited to roles in either a pre-plastic surgery time or a
> character unlikely to have plastic surgery (like a Hollywood movie
> star?!)
> where his age appropriate face does not clash with the rest of the
> image?
>
> It was probably a matter of editing, but early on in The Clearing
> there is a close up of Redford that looks tired, worn, strained. I
> would have
> saved it for later in the film to show the effect of his experience over
> the course of the kidnapping.

He may very well be tired and worn. He's no longer twenty.

On the other hand, I didn't think he looked too bad in SPY GAME, THE
LAST CASTLE, or THE HORSE WHISPERER. All three are bad films but he's
well-cast in them.

Of the films he directed, he only appears onscreen in HORSE WHISPERER.
But the only one I like is THE LEGEND OF BAGGER VANCE (and only
moderately). Redford-directed films usually have qualities about them
that usually extract from me great loathing.

Oh, I always forget about QUIZ SHOW. Not too bad, that one.

-Jaime

-Jaime
12024


From: J. Mabe
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:52am
Subject: Maria Candelaria
 
Thanks to whoever suggested Maria Candelaria on the
list. Just got back and it was amazing (Macario
wasn't too great, except for the final scenes). Now
I'm kicking myself for not having been in town for the
other Emilio Fernández films.

Josh Mabe



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12025


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:05am
Subject: hey David (will be: Gordon Hessler)
 
On your advice I checked out SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN. Killer opening,
some (darkly) fun ideas. The two plotlines that don't intersect until
the final scenes, that was a conceit that I don't think worked too
well. It's the kind of film that kept me thinking about what I would
do different if I was to direct a remake.

It fits the Mabuse genealogy pretty nicely, though! There's a
documentary featurette on the TESTAMENT OF DR. MABUSE supplements DVD
that shows a poster from SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN, with an alternate
title that includes "Mabuse." I don't remember it. Perhaps it was
shoehorned into the Mabuse "franchise," but it's not a stretch.

On the same DVD is another Gordon Hessler movie, THE OBLONG BOX, and I
actually ended up enjoying it quite a bit more. It's based on a Poe
tale and it features a villain who's more than a bit sympathetic, a
hero with blood on his hands, and a very effective "creepy"
atmosphere. The ending is very powerful. (Even if it was a mistake
for the filmmakers to reveal their MacGuffin - a real disappointment.
Goes to show you why it's better to leave some things for the
imagination, rather than the makeup department.)

=

Did you like HOME AT THE END OF THE WORLD, or just Colin Farrell? I
saw a preview version, the final edit, taken from Avid, and while it
shows he's got guts (two queers in a row: this, then Alexander the
Great!), the film is a big, messy embarrassment. And what the hell
happened to Robin Wright?

I'd like to see the casting director's notes for finding a kid to play
the young Colin. "Must have freakishly enormous eyebrows."

-Jaime
12026


From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 9:34pm
Subject: Early Anthony Mann
 
Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in the Night,
The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts appreciated.

Kevin John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12027


From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 9:42pm
Subject: Fejös films
 
Anyone seen any Pál Fejös films apart from Lonesome? I'm particularly
interested in his Fantomas. Thoughts appreciated.

Kevin John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12028


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:44am
Subject: Re: Translating titles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> > Let me put my lexicographer's hat back on. "Coup" has perhaps
two
> > dozen different meanings in French....
>
> Fascinating stuff! I get the sense of "a wipe" or "a touch" (or a
> "dab" or a "blot"?) perhaps from the word sometimes, based on what
> you've said...
>
> > That said, I have never seen "Le Coup du berger" and have no idea
> > what it refers to.
>
> It's the name of an early (1956) Rivette short.
>
> craig.

Iknow that, Craig, I was just saying that I don't know what the
phrase "le coup du berger" means. I've been telling myself I should
find out about it for the past 50 years or so.
JPC
12029


From:   Jack Angstreich
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:59am
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
is "coup de berger" not a reference to chess?
12030


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:00am
Subject: Re: Robert Redford (was: contemporary language)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> > I wouldn't be surprised if some script doctors working on remakes
today
> > of 'period pieces' are told modernize it with contemporary
language.
>
> The most embarrassing example of a period film using contemporary
> slang is Besson's JOAN OF ARC. Not Bresson's. Besson's. But then,
> there are so many things wrong with that movie.
>
-Jaime

Jaime, ALL period films use contemporary language. Even if they try
not to. There is NO OTHER WAY. No one knows how people spoke in Joan
of Arc's time. Even the way people talked 50 years ago sounds totally
strange. It's impossible to make an actor speak the way people spoke
even in a period that has left sound records such as the movies. We
can recreate the past with set dressing and old cars, but not with
the way people speak (or look, for that matter).
JPC
12031


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:10am
Subject: Re: Robert Redford (was: contemporary language)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"

> Jaime, ALL period films use contemporary language. Even if they try
> not to. There is NO OTHER WAY. No one knows how people spoke in Joan
> of Arc's time. Even the way people talked 50 years ago sounds totally
> strange. It's impossible to make an actor speak the way people spoke
> even in a period that has left sound records such as the movies. We
> can recreate the past with set dressing and old cars, but not with
> the way people speak (or look, for that matter).
> JPC

Yeah, I understand all that. But in the Besson film it's just
laughable. Have you seen it?

-Jaime
12032


From:
Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:15pm
Subject: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
Anyone seen this? Thoughts appreciated.

Kevin John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12033


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in the
Night,
> The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts appreciated.
>
> Kevin John

I liked RAILROADED! quite a bit, as well as T-MEN and HE WALKED BY
NIGHT (co-dir with Alfred Werker, Mann uncredited). DESPERATE is
okay, but one of his early peaks - and what a peak - is RAW DEAL, one
of the great noirs.

That may not be as early as you want, though, sorry. I have TWO
O'CLOCK COURAGE on tape but haven't watched it yet.

In general I think Mann is absolutely fantastic, with one or two films
that are quite bad despite enormous technical profiency, but even
those have their moments of wonder.

It's very rewarding to explore his career. Setting aside the
favorites, the most surprising discovery was DEVIL'S DOORWAY, a great
western about a rare theme: Native American resistance against the
encroaching settlers. White superstar Robert Taylor wears a bit of
shoe polish in a typically Hollywood bit of casting, but the film is
gripping and uses the landscapes effectively.

Peter Ustinov talks about Mann's early life in a nudist community,
which was disbanded - following this, Mann was forced to find work and
started out in Manhattan's garment district!

-Jaime
12034


From: joey lindsey
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:20am
Subject: Re: Re: Robert Redford
 
jpcoursodon wrote:

> Jaime, ALL period films use contemporary language. Even if they try
> not to. There is NO OTHER WAY. No one knows how people spoke in Joan
> of Arc's time. Even the way people talked 50 years ago sounds totally
> strange. It's impossible to make an actor speak the way people spoke
> even in a period that has left sound records such as the movies. We
> can recreate the past with set dressing and old cars, but not with
> the way people speak (or look, for that matter).
> JPC

I think it's inaccurate to call this impossible - I've never understood
why it wasn't, besides drastically extending the time it takes for the
actors to prepare. I haven't seen Mel's S/M porno (if you can't tell,
I'm talking about The Passion), but I understand he got everyone to
speak in a completely dead language and subtitled in English. If that
information is accurate, it's a specific example of someone getting
people to speak in a way that is at least theoretically the way they
spoke in a previous age.
A similar example I have seen, although on a much smaller scale, is
Spike Jonze getting The Pharcyde to learn a 5-minute (roughly) rap
entirely *backwards* phonetically, with their cues intact. ("Drop", on
Jonze's Director's DVD, quite an excellent disc.) If they can learn an
essentially alien language concieved technologically instead of
organically, a rigorous director could get the right actors to use 50s
vernacular spot-on. Of course there will be mistakes, but things could
be far better than the sloppy cut-n-paste of the language in most period
pieces.

I guess other pre-existing examples are every film made from a
Shakespeare play. (examples of both accuracy and mistakes, depending on
the film/director)

joey lindsey


ps: I realize now you may have been acting coy (or rather, sarcastic)
12035


From: joey lindsey
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:25am
Subject: period language (WAS: Robert Redford)
 
alas, i realized my last post had nothing to do with Robert Redford. Sorry.
(but to chime in, I think he completely outshines Willen Defoe in The
Clearing, but perhaps that's to be expected...)

joey

> jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > Jaime, ALL period films use contemporary language. Even if they try
> > not to. There is NO OTHER WAY. No one knows how people spoke in Joan
> > of Arc's time. Even the way people talked 50 years ago sounds totally
> > strange. It's impossible to make an actor speak the way people spoke
> > even in a period that has left sound records such as the movies. We
> > can recreate the past with set dressing and old cars, but not with
> > the way people speak (or look, for that matter).
> > JPC
>
> I think it's inaccurate to call this impossible - I've never understood
> why it wasn't, besides drastically extending the time it takes for the
> actors to prepare. I haven't seen Mel's S/M porno (if you can't tell,
> I'm talking about The Passion), but I understand he got everyone to
> speak in a completely dead language and subtitled in English. If that
> information is accurate, it's a specific example of someone getting
> people to speak in a way that is at least theoretically the way they
> spoke in a previous age.
> A similar example I have seen, although on a much smaller scale, is
> Spike Jonze getting The Pharcyde to learn a 5-minute (roughly) rap
> entirely *backwards* phonetically, with their cues intact. ("Drop", on
> Jonze's Director's DVD, quite an excellent disc.) If they can learn an
> essentially alien language concieved technologically instead of
> organically, a rigorous director could get the right actors to use 50s
> vernacular spot-on. Of course there will be mistakes, but things could
> be far better than the sloppy cut-n-paste of the language in most period
> pieces.
>
> I guess other pre-existing examples are every film made from a
> Shakespeare play. (examples of both accuracy and mistakes, depending on
> the film/director)
>
> joey lindsey
>
>
> ps: I realize now you may have been acting coy (or rather, sarcastic)
12036


From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:28am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:


> And here is another problem in reverse...
> modern faces in old period pieces...

Back when Otto Preminger was involved in preparing Joseph and His
Brethren, Anthony Perkins supposedly lobbied him for the title role
but was rejected because Preminger said Joseph was an Old Testament
role while Perkins had a New Testament face.

--Robert Keser
12037


From: Aaron Graham
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:34am
Subject: re: Gordon Hessler)
 
> It fits the Mabuse genealogy pretty nicely, though! There's a
> documentary featurette on the TESTAMENT OF DR. MABUSE supplements
DVD
> that shows a poster from SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN, with an alternate
> title that includes "Mabuse." I don't remember it. Perhaps it was
> shoehorned into the Mabuse "franchise," but it's not a stretch.

According to issue no. 98 of "Video Watchdog" (which features an
excellent interview/overview of the underrated Hessler):

"When time came for SCREAM AND SCREAM AGAIN's West German release, it
was retitled DIE LEBENDEN LEICHEN DES DR MABUSE ("THE LIVING DEAD OF
DR. MABUSE"), with Vincent Price's character of Dr. Browning
rechristened Mabuse for the occasion."

-Aaron
12038


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:40am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:

"Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in the
Night, The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts
appreciated."

THE GREAT FLAMARION is excellent with outstanding performances by Von
Strohiem and Dan Duryea. The visual high point of the movie is a
sequence where Von Strohiem does his marksman act; it's suberbly
blocked and edited. I haven't seen any earlier Manns.

Richard
12039


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:08am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:

"...my view of it is that it is quite impossible for a movie to
recreate the speech of the past -- even a recent past, like the
fifties, say. Because no one really knows or cares how people spoke
then, and if they did it would be incredibly difficult to change the
way they speak. This would also apply to how people looked -- watch
an absolute masterpiece like Ruiz's TIME REGAINED and laugh at how
incredibly anachronistic women and their speech look and sound. You
have to just live with it. Just as in a DeMille biblical saga."

I mostly agree, but some Japanese period films may be exceptions
because the film is based on a classical text, for example
Mizoguchi's CHIKAMATSU MONOGATARI/TALE OF THE CRUCIFIED LOVERS. Also
in Japan Noh thaetre (with texts dating to the 14th century) and
Kabuki (with texts dating to the 17th centurt) remain popular with
the general public, and because of the iemoto system of oral
transmission from master to student in traditonal performing arts
some Japanese schoalers believe the original pronunciations have
remained fairly pure.

As with TIME REGAINED fidelity to the fashions of the past can be an
obstacle; in Teshigahara's RIKYU the legendary beauty Ochacha looks a
little grotesque to modern eyes because of her historically accurate
make-up.

Richard
12040


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:37am
Subject: Re: Robert Redford
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, joey lindsey wrote:

> I think it's inaccurate to call this impossible - I've never
understood
> why it wasn't, besides drastically extending the time it takes for
the
> actors to prepare. I haven't seen Mel's S/M porno (if you can't
tell,
> I'm talking about The Passion), but I understand he got everyone to
> speak in a completely dead language and subtitled in English. If
that
> information is accurate, it's a specific example of someone getting
> people to speak in a way that is at least theoretically the way
they
> spoke in a previous age.


"Theoretically" is the key word. I think what Gibson did in his
film is quite extraordinary and the languages spoken sound convincing
(especially if you know both a little Latin and Italian)BUT we have
no way of knowing how accurate they are and it is likely that if
people of the period heard them they wouldn't understand a word
and/or would find the words and accents very hard to understand and
laughable.

In 1999 Patricia Mazuy made a wonderful film, "Saint-Cyr", about
a school for young girls created in the XVIIth century by Madame de
Maintenon. They were girls from various French provinces all speaking
a different regional dialect, and the director worked very hard to
coach girls to learn such old dialects, as well as trying to look and
behave like XVIIth century young girls from the provinces. The result
is fascinating and admirable but we have no way of knowing how
accurate and true to the recreated past it is. Actually it is
probably very inaccurate, although it looks and sounds infinitely
truer than anything of the kind we have seen. And this as well as the
Gibson film are extreme and very rare examples. My point is that an
actual faithful recreation of the past is impossible no matter how
hard you work at it. And I think it is even truer of language than of
any other aspect of the recreated past. The farther you go back in
the past of course the more difficult/impossible it gets (but then it
doesn't matter, really. Hawks didn't know how Pharaohs spoke but he
did it anyway). But even with the more recent past -- just try to
make a young French or American or English (I speak about languages I
know) actress speak like young women spoke in the 30s or 40s.Or even
50s. They'd need diction coaches to make them lose their accent to
begin with and it would take ages. Ad then who could write the kind
of lines appropriate to the time? It really doesn't matter because
movies never do more than create an "impression of reality" anyway.
JPC
)
>
>
12041


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:41am
Subject: language of the past
 
My previous post titled "Robert Redford" should have been retitled,
with my apologies to Redford, who has nothing to do with the post.
12042


From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:46am
Subject: The CLEARING
 
The Defoe character quickly lost much of the edge he
carries into his roles. Redford had the better role.

I found THE CLEARING reminded me of UNDER THE
SAND. Anyone share a comparison of these?



> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:25:01 -0400
> From: joey lindsey
> Subject: period language (WAS: Robert Redford)
>
> alas, i realized my last post had nothing to do with Robert Redford.
> Sorry.
> (but to chime in, I think he completely outshines Willen Defoe in The
> Clearing, but perhaps that's to be expected...)
>
> joey
12043


From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:52am
Subject: contemporary language in old films
 
Do you think the movies of the 40's were a good
representation of the speech of 40's? Is it appropriate
today to look back at the films of the 40's (that were
about the 40's) as period pieces?

Efforts to reproduce today simple documentaries made in
the 40's would require major efforts at re-creation of
that time.



Message: 11
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:44:44 -0000
From: "jpcoursodon"
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films

>> It is really fun to watch
>>> movies from the 20's-30's-40's and hear the venacular of the
>>> times.
>
> Bill
>> And irritating to hear recent usage in older settings. An example
>> I've cited here is "What?" as an all-purpose question addressed to
>> someone who's being reticent. It's definitely something that
happened
>> in the last 20 years, and now I hear it in dialogue of many eras -
-
>> wouldn't be surpruised if it's in Troy and Arthur. It even
bothered
>> me hearing it at the start of the Texas Chainsaw remake, which is
a
>> period film set in the 70s. People didn't SAY "What?" like that in
>> the 70s.
>>

Well it's not clear to me who made the above statement, but this is
a very interesting subject and my view of it is that it is quite
impossible for a movie to recreate the speech of the past -- even a
recent past, like the fifties, say. Because no one really knows or
cares how people spoke then, and if they did it would be incredibly
difficult to change the way they speak. This would also apply to how
people looked -- watch an absolute masterpiece like Ruiz's TIME
REGAINED and laugh at how incredibly anachronistic women and their
speech look and sound. You have to just live with it. Just as in a
DeMille biblical saga.
JPC
12044


From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:53am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
I've seen two Anthony Mann films from 1945 and both are pretty bad.
Two O'Clock Courage is saddled with a very stupid mystery screenplay
directed straightforwardly with absolutely no style at all from Mann,
and except, briefly in the opening shot, there are not even any of
the expected noir touches. There are some extremely labored "comic"
sequences, though, which make the film something approaching torture
to sit through, something I never thought I'd say about any movie
with one of my favorite actors, Tom Conway.

The musical Sing Your Way Home is equally undistinguished, and like
Two O'Clock Courage it could just as easily have been directed by any
number of non-entities under contract to RKO at the time (e.g. John
Auer, Leslie Goodwins) without it making any difference.. It's a
dopey film about a war correspondent (a miscast Jack Haley) having to
accompany a group of unbecoming juveniles who make up a musical
troupe back home from Europe after the end of the War. Completely
inconsequential, but at least it's not insufferable like Two O'Clock
Courage. And you also get Anne Jeffreys singing "The Lord's Play,"
which depending on you point of view is either an asset or a minus.

I still find it hard to believe that within two years Mann would be
showing himself to have complete command of the medium with films
like T-Men, and that five years later he would be directing the
marvelous Winchester '73 and the brilliant Devil's Doorway.

-- Damien

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in
the Night,
> The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts appreciated.
>
> Kevin John
12045


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:54am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
> Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in the Night,
> The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts appreciated.

I've seen some pre T-MEN films: DESPERATE, RAILROADED, THE BAMBOO
BLONDE, STRANGE IMPERSONATION, THE GREAT FLAMMARION. None of them mean
a lot to me. DESPERATE and RAILROADED are steps toward the intensity of
the later work, but T-MEN is a pretty big jump forward. STRANGE
IMPERSONATION has a small following among Mann fans - it's bizarre, but
didn't seem all that distinctive in terms of style. - Dan
12046


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:58am
Subject: Re: Fejös films
 
> Anyone seen any Pál Fejös films apart from Lonesome? I'm particularly
> interested in his Fantomas. Thoughts appreciated.

Haven't seem his FANTOMAS. One of his Hungarian films, MARIE, A
HUNGARIAN LEGEND, is quite good; I've also seen BROADWAY, which I
thought was decent. - Dan
12047


From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:06am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
> it is quite
> impossible for a movie to recreate the speech of the past -- even a
> recent past, like the fifties, say. Because no one really knows or
> cares how people spoke then, and if they did it would be incredibly
> difficult to change the way they speak. This would also apply to how
> people looked -- watch an absolute masterpiece like Ruiz's TIME
> REGAINED and laugh at how incredibly anachronistic women and their
> speech look and sound.

This may be true, but I would think that (even apart from the example of Japanese theater) there are "conventions" of period movement which actors learn (and which opera singers in today's "updated" performances, for example, have to unlearn). The object being not necessarily historical accuracy, but its obverse: avoidance of anachronism of the most glaringly obvious kind. Whereas something like the contemporary "What?" that's been mentioned goes well out of its way NOT to avoid anachronism. Another one (perhaps also already mentioned): the ubiquitous, and dreaded, "I *need you to* (do this or that)" -- which almost always strikes me as the sure sign of an author with a tin ear (although I'm sure someone will now point out its antecedents in Shakespeare and before...!)
12048


From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:17am
Subject: Re: 'celluloid film' is altered
 
I think your comment is a clearer version of what I may have
sensed but didn't articulate.

I also think that MISE EN SCENE is a hard concept to grasp
because so many movies have no mise en scene. I am
reading LeBeau's MISE EN SCENE and going to go through
some of the movies mentioned with dedicated attention
to mise en scene. Hopefully my perception will improve!


--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> > Interesting comment. What it suggests to me is that
> > people are offended that the 'celluloid film' is altered
> > by digital means. Certainly altering film is historical
> > with the tinting, the dissolves, etc. But the film stock
> > itself is altered and tediously worked on in a way that
> > can 'ruin' the film. People unfamiliar with digital
> > techniques may not appreciate how tedious it can
> > be to do these renderings (although improving
> > by the day). Of course, the permanent copy is
> > always preserved.
>
> I don't think the problem is desecration of the celluloid original, but
> the fact that nothing's being photographed, and it is photography (if
> the terms of "cinematography" have by now changed) that some (including
> myself) might argue is what instills in cinema its capacity to arrest
> -- even in the case of trick shots or special effects, celluloid says:
> "This happened."
>
> As for 'Amélie' (or, more exactly, 'Le Fabuleux destin d'Amélie
> Poulain'), my own reasons for disliking the film stem from its
> pointless nostalgia, and too-precious set-decorative magic (which isn't
> the same as mise en scčne). Likewise, in regard to its actual mise en
> scčne, the movie comes off all "zappeur"-like, no attention span -- and
> unaware that it's not just "good ideas" strung together (Amélie's
> cut-up trail, the upholstered television set -- a symbol which says
> more about Jeunet than about what he thinks he's saying about its
> owner, or at least, its owner's world) which make a great film. A
> great film, like 'Jules et Jim,' for example, -- the John Madden-effect
> of circling the fly on the windowpane during the excerpt is so gauche I
> want to puke; so pompous and peacocking because any attentive
> movie-watcher would have noticed the fly on the windowpane on his or
> her own, and Jeunet's calling attention to it, TelePrompting the
> moment, ruins the magic and turns the private observation we'd
> treasured but never been so crass as to parade, into a stupid, public
> placard. Get Gas Here, $1.49!!!
>
> craig.
12049


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:42am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
There is a long article on my web site, focusing on Anthony Mann's work in
film noir:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/mann.htm

There are some really early films it does not discuss.
I loved "The Bamboo Blonde" when seen decades ago. But have not seen it
recently enough to discuss meaningfully for the article.
Did not like "Strange Impersonation", and do not understand its underground
reputation.
"Railroaded" is not that great. It has script troubles.

Mike Grost
12050


From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:47am
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles
 
>is "coup de berger" not a reference to chess?

Precisely! Both "le coup du berger" and "le coup de l'escalier" are chess
terms. They are used to describe two canonical ways to checkmate. I am
pretty familiar with these expressions in French as I play chess, but I
didn't know the English equivalents. They are quite close: the "Shepherds's
mate" and the "up the stairs mate." These two mates are generally easy to
avoid for an experienced player, but are good examples to learn how the game
works.

I don't know what the Rivette short is about, but I have seen ODDS AGAINST
TOMORROW (LE COUP DE L'ESCALIER) and I love it. Maybe the distributor wanted
to convey (albeit enigmatically enough) that the bankrobbers failed because
they were inexperienced? This a quite a strange translation, anyway.

Your 50-year wait is finally over, Jean-Pierre! :)

Samuel

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12051


From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:50am
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
 
> The shock ending is what I remember as
> wallowing in excess. I could be using the wrong term, and I
> could be misquoting the scene; I haven't seen it since 1993. But
> I remember sitting there in the theater thinking about the tepid &
> timid film compared to Hitchcock or Lang.

I liked the film well enough; thought it didn't try to say more than
what it is, a thriller (thought Wages of Fear had something more to
say).

My biggest problem was the character of the detective. He seemed to
know what was happening, why did he allow the death of one of the
main characters? That point wasn't at all clear for me.
12052


From: George Robinson
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
I'm with Jaime on those early noirs; even the flawed ones are absolutely
riveting.
Some of John Alton's best work, too. I saw Bamboo Blonde and Great
Flamarrion
several centuries ago and can't remember them at all, but the Eagle-Lion
stuff is quite
extraordinary.

George Robinson

Our talk of justice is empty until the
largest battleship has foundered on the
forehead of a drowned man.
--Paul Celan
12053


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:35am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
There are now 200 years of prose "historical novels" available. Many of these
writers make all-out efforts to recreate the speech of earlier eras. The
biggest boom in mystery stories in the last 20 years has been in historical
detective fiction, for example. Just read Kathy Lynn Emerson's "Murders and Other
Confusions" (2004), a short story collection taking place in the mid 1500's. The
author's level of research into the era is just extraordinary. This is her
eighth book about her series characters. She has also written a non-fiction
manual, "The Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in Renaissance England" (Writer's
Digest Books, 1996). In her prose writings, Emerson has repeatedly expressed a
desire to see her books filmed by Hollywood. Somehow, one doubts this will
happen. It's a shame! By the way, she recommends "Shakespeare in Love".
Hollywood will spend thousands of hours on "violence and special effects",
the two big selling points of modern films. A much smaller amount of work and
expense could create reasonably authentic versions of old speech. But one
suspects that film executives just do not care. There are small armies of experts
like Emerson who could easily be hired. And much cheaper, one suspects, than
special effects people.

On language:
Aramaic (used in "The Passion") is NOT a dead language. It is still spoken as
the mother tongue of some small ethnic groups in the Middle East, such as the
Chaldeans. Large numbers of Chaldeans have emigrated to Detroit here. The
extraordinarily beautiful Aramaic language can be heard on the streets of Detroit.
Originally, all languages came in huge numbers of dialects; each village and
region of a country would have its own dialect of a language. In some
countries, such as Spain and Italy, these are viewed with pride, and people make it a
point of honor to speak Catalan or Venetian.
By contrast, France has been trying to eradicate its regional dialects since
the French Revolution (1789). The uniform French schooling system had one of
its main goals the replacement of native dialects with the dialect of Paris and
the Loire Valley, viewed as "standard French".
People tend to forget that Frederic Mistral won the Nobel Prize for his
poetry in Provencal, one of the regional languages the French government has been
trying to eliminate.
Have never heard of Patricia Mazuy's film, "Saint-Cyr". It sounds
fascinating! Thank you, JPC, for bringing it to our attention.

Mike Grost
12054


From: Adam Hart
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 8:31am
Subject: Re: Fejös films
 
I've yet to see anything by Fejos, but I do know that deco dawson -
a former student and protege of Guy Maddin whose own films seem to
have inspired much of Maddin's subsequent work - has been planning
on filming a musical biography of the man. I have no idea what point
the production is in right now.

-adam


--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Anyone seen any Pál Fejös films apart from Lonesome? I'm
particularly
> > interested in his Fantomas. Thoughts appreciated.
>
> Haven't seem his FANTOMAS. One of his Hungarian films, MARIE, A
> HUNGARIAN LEGEND, is quite good; I've also seen BROADWAY, which I
> thought was decent. - Dan
12055


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:56am
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
PS My Provencal is even worse than my French. But I love to sing aong with my
Troubadour records, which are all in Provencal. You have not lived till
you've heard my rendition of "Kalenda maia" (May Day), the great "estampia" song
(stamping dance).
I also like to sing along with Lithuanian and Gaelic folk songs.
If people on the list can spend their time reading Adorno, I can spend my
time singing!

Mike Grost
"Every living creature has the gift of song."
Ki no Tsurayuki - preface to the Ko kin waka shu.
(one of my favorite books)
12056


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:20am
Subject: Re: Re: Fejös films
 
In a message dated 7/9/04 3:33:06 AM, voltafilms@y... writes:


> I do know that deco dawson has been planning on filming a musical biography
> of the man.
>
Fascinating!!! I found this nugget at filmmakermagazine.com:
"Along with a handful of shorts, he’s preparing his first solo feature, The
Broadway of Fejos, based on Hungarian-born filmmaker Dr. Paul Fejos’s 1928
Hollywood crime musical, Broadway. dawson’s film will be a fictional "making of"
told in the style of backstage musicals of the era."

I can't wait.

Kevin John




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12057


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:27am
Subject: Re: Broadway (was Fejös films)
 
Kevin John writes:
> I do know that deco dawson has been planning on filming a musical biography
> of the man.
>
Fascinating!!! I found this nugget at filmmakermagazine.com:
"Along with a handful of shorts, he's preparing his first solo feature, "The
Broadway of Fejos", based on Hungarian-born filmmaker Dr. Paul Fejoss 1928
Hollywood crime musical, "Broadway". dawson's film will be a fictional
"making of"
told in the style of backstage musicals of the era."

I've never had a chance to see the film version of "Broadway", but I have
read the play. Here are some comments on it from the Raoul Walsh article on my
web site:

The closest ancestor I have been able to discover for "The Roaring Twenties"
(1939), and the 1930's Hollywood gangster film in general, is the play
"Broadway" (1926), by Philip Dunning and George Abbott. This play was a huge
commercial and critical success in 1926, and did much to popularize the world of
gangsters and speakeasies in entertainment media. It conveys the milieu that would
later appear in gangster films with startling vividness. Some of the play's
characters are gangsters, bootleggers who are conducting turf wars for control
of the illegal liquor industry during Prohibition. These men hijack each others
trucks, and gun each other down in cold blood, just as in Walsh's film, and
other gangster works. They also control liquor distribution in well defined
geographic areas of New York City. As in Walsh's film, there is a scene in which
they force an unwilling night club owner to take their booze. The gangsters
are all dressed in tuxedos, just as in "The Roaring Twenties", and many other
gangster films.
Other characters in "Broadway" are show biz types, singers and dancers who
work in mob controlled night clubs. These characters are not criminals or
dishonest, but they have to coexist with the gangsters in a common environment. Such
night clubs and their entertainers are also featured prominently in "The
Roaring Twenties", and other gangster movies. The honest, two-bit hoofer who has
to confront the gangsters in "Broadway" was originally played on stage by Lee
Tracy, who became a big 1930's movie star himself, after he was imported to
Hollywood to appear in another stage adaptation, Roy Del Ruth's "Blessed Event"
(1932).
The subject matter of Broadway is not its only link to Hollywood. The snappy,
slang filled, vernacular dialogue of Broadway anticipates countless 1930's
talkies. In fact, the archetypal Warner Brothers picture of the 1930's,
featuring tough but honest characters who cope with working class poverty with a
wisecrack, seems to come directly out of Broadway. Reading it, I had to constantly
remind myself that this was a 1926 play, and not some 1930's movie.
Broadway is far from being a perfect work. It ethnically stereotypes some of
its crooks, something that is not morally acceptable. Commendably, this
problem is not shared by The Roaring Twenties, which looks as if it has made a
conscious effort to gives its various gangsters names not associated with any
ethnic group.
At one point in its development, Broadway was known as "The Roaring Forties".
The phrase still survives in the text of the finished play. It refers not to
the decade of the 1940's, but rather to such New York City streets as 42nd
Street, the locale for the play's action. Broadway is a somewhat misleading
title, by today's standards. The work deals not with the New York theater, which is
what the phrase "Broadway" usually conjures up today, but with the
speakeasies and gangsters who once thrived in the neighborhood of Broadway.
Broadway is easily available in book form in many libraries. It was
reprinted, for example, in "Famous Plays of Crime and Detection" (1946), edited by Van
H. Cartmell and Bennett Cerf. Like comic books, plays and the theater are a
once popular and hugely influential medium, that are now sinking slowly off most
contemporary readers' radar screens. People will only develop a real
understanding of popular culture when they explore all of its media, rather than
simply restricting themselves to film alone.
There is also a film version of the play, Broadway (1929), directed by Paul
Fejos. Like other works by Fejos, it is very hard to see today, and most
contemporary filmgoers, myself included, are completely unfamiliar with this early
talkie. Thomas E. Jackson repeated his stage role as the police detective in
the movie version, and went on to play supporting roles as policemen and
District Attorney's for the next forty years in Hollywood. And Evelyn Brent, who had
appeared in Sternberg's gangster films, plays a major role in the film
version.

Mike Grost
12058


From: Adrian Martin
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:45am
Subject: Re: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
Kevin J asks: "Anyone seen this? Thoughts appreciated."

I LOVE this film, one of Jancsó's very best, in my opinion. (I also like a
little-seen one made in Italy with Monica Vitti and Pierre Clémenti, THE
PACIFIST which I caught on TV here in Australia years ago.) Curiously, I saw
and taught WINTER WIND in some 'contemporary cinema' class of about 1982,
and the synchronous reading experience of the group was the wave of Jean
Baudrillard translations in the early 80s: even though Baudrillard and
Jancsó have nothing literally in common (and these two 'texts' are years
apart), it was amazing how "The Precession of Simulacra" essay by JB chimed
in with WINTER WIND for me and the students, since it is such a film about
supposedly spontaneous political acts becoming spectacles, the circularity
of illusion and reality, the unusual games that emerge in a treacherously
'mediated' world, etc etc. Another film of the time that spoke of these
things with some complexity - a film now quite forgotten, it seems to me -
is Bertolucci's TRAGEDY OF A RIDICULOUS MAN: remember that a lot of the
Baudrillard-type writings of that time (and a lot of these came from Italy:
Autonomia and all that) were precisely about the paradoxes of terrorism
becoming a 'State-controlled spectacle' and the State's sneaky policies of
'deterrence'. It was a particular intellectual tool-box that seems to have
well and truly had its day in the 'post September 11 world': Baudrillard's
Sophism applied to recent world traumas seems to have very few fans!! Ah,
nobody writes theoretical treatises anymore with Baudrillard-speciality
titles like "What Are You Doing After the Orgy" !!!!

Adrian
12059


From: Zach Campbell
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:27pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
Jaime:
> I liked RAILROADED! quite a bit, as well as T-MEN and HE WALKED BY
> NIGHT (co-dir with Alfred Werker, Mann uncredited). DESPERATE is
> okay, but one of his early peaks - and what a peak - is RAW DEAL,
one
> of the great noirs.

RAW DEAL and RAILROADED are still on my to-see list, but I remember
liking DESPERATE quite a bit. If you haven't seen it, Kevin, give
that one a shot.

> That may not be as early as you want, though, sorry. I have TWO
> O'CLOCK COURAGE on tape but haven't watched it yet.

Hey, me too. But when will our times come to see this film, like so
many others? sigh ...

--Zach
12060


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:54pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Zach Campbell"

> Hey, me too. But when will our times come to see this film, like
so
> many others? sigh ...

Mann retro at Lincoln Center...Aug 11-29. Next month! (Jeepers!)
No word on the line-up, yet. But given a long run like that I
imagine there'll be some good opportunities.

Seeing his 'Scope films on the big WRT screen will be so awesome. I
know you're not as much of a MAN FROM LARAMIE fan as I am, Zach, but
there are others. CIMARRON is overall probably a bad film but there
are several exquisite moments and set pieces. And I want to see MAN
OF THE WEST again very badly.

I wonder if they'd coughed up enough dough for some 70mm prints of
EL CID and FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE?

-Jaime
12061


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Anyone seen this? Thoughts appreciated.
>
Back in 1970 when Grove Press released it through its
short-lived film division. Rather claustrophobic for
jansco, but quite interesting due to the rpesence of
stars like Jacques Charrier and Marina Vlady.



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12062


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:29pm
Subject: Re: hey David (will be: Gordon Hessler)
 
--- "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:

>
> Did you like HOME AT THE END OF THE WORLD, or just
> Colin Farrell?

Both.

I
> saw a preview version, the final edit, taken from
> Avid, and while it
> shows he's got guts (two queers in a row: this,
> then Alexander the
> Great!), the film is a big, messy embarrassment.
> And what the hell
> happened to Robin Wright?
>
Not to me.I was deeply, deeply moved. What happens to
Robin Wright is quite interesting and I hope to
discuss it at length somewhere. Short version: she
discovers too late that she's the "third Wheel."



> I'd like to see the casting director's notes for
> finding a kid to play
> the young Colin. "Must have freakishly enormous
> eyebrows."
>
Well sure. Iloved the actors who played the characters
as kids, especially the "Jonathan" with a mouth full
of metal. That he becomes the very soigne Dallas
Roberts is most amusing.



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12063


From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
Jaime N. Christley wrote:

>Mann retro at Lincoln Center...Aug 11-29.
>
Do not miss "Men in War." It doesn't seem to have the reputation of some
of the others, but it could be the very greatest Mann film. Black and
white, a film of incredible physical intensity, figures and landscape
and darkness in strange, Mann-ean interaction with each other, under
stress, almost fusing. The title is a pretty good description of Mann
at his best , actually, a little bit like titling a Sirk film "People
and Surfaces" or a Ray "The Neurotic Intensity of Loners."

"Railroaded" and "Raw Deal" may be uneven, but both are really good, as
is "The Great Flamirion;" I agree with Richeard's comments on that one.
Jaime is right on the greatness of "Devil's Doorway," a great great
landscape film, as is "Border Incident."

- Fred C.
12064


From: Dave Kehr
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
Like most retrospectives in NYC these days, this one will depend on
what prints Scorsese has in his collection and is willing to lend.
I wish both WRT and MOMA would stop being so coy about what kinds of
prints they are showing, and announce 16mm or 35mm or whatever in
their calendars, like the European cinematheques do. You never
really know what you're going to get until you show up.

Dave




--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Zach Campbell"

>
> > Hey, me too. But when will our times come to see this film,
like
> so
> > many others? sigh ...
>
> Mann retro at Lincoln Center...Aug 11-29. Next month!
(Jeepers!)
> No word on the line-up, yet. But given a long run like that I
> imagine there'll be some good opportunities.
>
> Seeing his 'Scope films on the big WRT screen will be so awesome.
I
> know you're not as much of a MAN FROM LARAMIE fan as I am, Zach,
but
> there are others. CIMARRON is overall probably a bad film but
there
> are several exquisite moments and set pieces. And I want to see
MAN
> OF THE WEST again very badly.
>
> I wonder if they'd coughed up enough dough for some 70mm prints of
> EL CID and FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE?
>
> -Jaime
12065


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
> Do not miss "Men in War." It doesn't seem to have the reputation of some
> of the others, but it could be the very greatest Mann film.

I agree - an astonishing film. - Dan
12066


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:03pm
Subject: Todd Haynes
 
Had a lot of fun at "Outfest" premiere last night here
in Los Angeles, where Todd Haynes was honored with a
career achievement award. Todd tells me that Portland
is now not only home to him, href="http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g001/gus.shtml"
target="_blank">Gus Van Sant and href="http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g003/bradford.html"
target="_blank">Steven Bradford but now href="http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g004/charliekaufman.html"
target="_blank">Charlie Kaufman has moved there as
well.

He says his Bob Dylan project is continuing apace and
that Paramount is backing it. Not the "classics"
division but the Big Paramount.

So I told Todd that considering the fact that there
are a wide variety of roles in the film (in which
everyone from a 10 year-old black boy to a middle-aged
woman get to enact segments of Bob Dylan's life) he
should offer Sherry Lansing a part. She hasn't
appeared in a movie since Howard Hawks' Rio
Lobo
. Todd seemed tickled.

He was also unaware of the fact that Friedkin was once
briefly married to Jeanne Moreau.



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12067


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:04pm
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> There are now 200 years of prose "historical novels" available.
Many of these
> writers make all-out efforts to recreate the speech of earlier
eras.

The problem is that they have practically no reliable documents
to base their efforts on. The literature and written documents of the
past provide only uncertain and often misleading clues as to how a
language was actually spoken during any given past period. So again
it comes down to creating an impression of authenticity which may be
only that -- an impression. But in fiction or film, the impression is
what counts, of course.
A less practical and more "philosophical" problem I see is the
fundamental inability for an individual living in a certain time to
think and feel the way people did 500 years or 200 years ago, or even
50 years ago (if you live long enough you begin to feel estranged
from ways you thought and felt decades before). You just can't
disconnect yourself from where and when and how you live. Again, you
can fake it and create an impression but no matter how skillful it
will still be a pretense.
As far as aural documentation, things have changed drastically of
course with the invention of recorded sound, sound motion pictures,
and later the spread of television and video. Future generations will
have a plethora of recorded audio-visual evidence of how people
actually spoke (and looked, and behaved) in the seconf half (and
especially last third) of the 20th century. But considering that the
phonograph was invented in the eighteen seventies and sound film
appeared in the late twenties, there is remarkably little
documentation of actual speech (outside of written speeches by
dignitaries, the occasional poetry reading and other instances of
florid, artificial delivery) until after WWII (as Elizabeth pointed
out, the dialog in sound films of the 30s or 40s -- for example --
and the way it was spoken cannot be considered a faithful reflection
of actual spoken speech of the period. Still, it provides precious
clues, if only as to prononciation.)

In her prose writings, Emerson has repeatedly expressed a
> desire to see her books filmed by Hollywood. Somehow, one doubts
this will
> happen. It's a shame! By the way, she recommends "Shakespeare in
Love".


This is amusing, since "Shakespeare in Love" is such a perfect
example of 100% late twentieth century American sensibility and a
splendid illustration of my contention that you can reproduce the
past only in the most superficial manner. (this is not to say that
it's not a good movie).

JPC
12068


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in
the Night,
> > The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts
appreciated.
>
> I've seen some pre T-MEN films: DESPERATE, RAILROADED, THE BAMBOO
> BLONDE, STRANGE IMPERSONATION, THE GREAT FLAMMARION. None of them
mean
> a lot to me. DESPERATE and RAILROADED are steps toward the
intensity of
> the later work, but T-MEN is a pretty big jump forward. STRANGE
> IMPERSONATION has a small following among Mann fans - it's bizarre,
but
> didn't seem all that distinctive in terms of style. - Dan

I'm coming late to the Mann discussion, having been embroiled in
another thread. Among his early films I liked "Dr
Broadway", "Railroaded", "Strangers in the Night" (which has quite a
few visual ideas), "Strange impersonation" but he really came into
his own when he teamed with John Alton.
By the way TCM is showing "Railroaded" on July 14 and "Desperate" on
the 20th.
JPC
12069


From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
jpcoursodon wrote:

>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
>
>.... "Strangers in the Night" (which has quite a
>few visual ideas),....
>
Do you (or does anyone) remember if this is the film in which there's
something odd with a portrait on the wall -- perhaps a cut f rom the
portrait to a point of view shot as if from the point of view of the
person in the portrait? If I remember this right, it's one of those
great, Ulmer-like moment that are sprinkled through low budget films of
the 40s and 50s. There's a pov from the point of view of a portrait at
the end of "Street Angel," so this isn't anything new.

- Fred C.
12070


From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:02pm
Subject: Re: contemporary language EDITORS
 
The major problem of the future is going to be accessing the
info that you want. Certainly we are all familiar with our
own selective memory; think of your favorite item of clothing
and an image is evoked. Now try to look that up on goggle:
BLUE JEANS brings almost a million internet sites.

It won't be long before a constant record of a person
from the moment of conception is available! Everyone
will have a visual / audio / olfactory / gustatory / palpatory
recorder.

When I was young (with a reconstructive photographic
memory) and had to allot my meager resources, I
decided not to have a camera as I thought the number of
'good photos' one would want to keep was miniscule
relative to the number of photos taken; even smaller was
the likelihood of having a camera ready for the one shot
that you wanted to take. The cost benefit was just too
high. (couple that with wanting to take a Pulizer Prize
photo, as any other camera buff might)

So what can we expect of the future? Editors! Which is
what our selective memory is... I know there is a story here.
Indeed a good screenwriter knows how to 'edit' the story
at the writing stage.

(the next big wave in the internet is going to be selective
search engine)


--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> As far as aural documentation, things have changed drastically of
> course with the invention of recorded sound, sound motion pictures,
> and later the spread of television and video. Future generations
will
> have a plethora of recorded audio-visual evidence of how people
> actually spoke (and looked, and behaved) in the seconf half (and
> especially last third) of the 20th century.
> JPC
12071


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Do not miss "Men in War." It doesn't seem to have the reputation
of some
> > of the others, but it could be the very greatest Mann film.
>
> I agree - an astonishing film. - Dan

It used to be my favorite Mann with THE NAKED SPUR (one of the
greatest, most perfect westerns ever made)and I remember writing a
long study about it (MEN IN WAR) when it was released in France. It's
still very strong, one of the best war movies ever, but not as much
as NAKED SPUR. Since we were on the subject of translated titles,
this one was called "L'Appat" ("The Bait") in France, although I'm
not sure what the bait is (Janet?) It didn't bother Tavernier who
called one of his own movies "L'Appat". ("Men in War" was "Cote 465"
in France).

JPC
12072


From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: one - on - one dialogue
 
It would be very interesting to analyze how one-on-one speaking
styles have changed with the availability of other means of
"indirect" communication (telephone).

Just think about your own life. I remember when long distance
phone call conversations were abbreviated, when a late
night phone call or long distance phone call meant
trouble. Now cell phone calls go on and on like a regular
conversation.

When cell phones first came out and were owned
only my the rich and famous (movie stars), I had the
sense that some actors on the screen (even in a
historical period piece) looked as if they were waiting
from a call from their agent, lover, child, broker (you
choose) even if there were no cell phones in the movie.
Just watch the conversations of people in
a movie line: the older people tend to converse with
each other; the younger are on a cell phone, but now they
are going on and on (often about about nothing).

There has to be some effect of the indirect communication
of the telephone (and now the ubiquitous cell phone) on
the one - on - one dialogue we see on the screen.

Going to an even further extreme:
The ever ready info source of the internet www
has implications for how information is handled in
story telling today. Does a character need to explain
a particular happening / event to another? The good
news is that character 'reactions' can become the
focus, which is where most interest lies.







>
> From: "jpcoursodon"
> But even with the more recent past -- just try to
> make a young French or American or English (I speak about languages I
> know) actress speak like young women spoke in the 30s or 40s.Or even
> 50s. They'd need diction coaches to make them lose their accent to
> begin with and it would take ages. Ad then who could write the kind
> of lines appropriate to the time? It really doesn't matter because
> movies never do more than create an "impression of reality" anyway.
> JPC
12073


From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:42pm
Subject: Terror in the Aisles
 
Anybody see this the past few days? Future showings listed below


Terror in the Aisles
CATEGORY:
Horror
SYNOPSIS:
Donald Pleasence and Nancy Allen show clips from ``The Shining,''
``The Exorcist'' and other shockers.

510 [TRUE]
July 16: 9:05PM
July 20: 6:45PM

511 [TRUEP]
July 17: 12:05AM
July 20: 9:45PM

RATING:
R *+

LENGTH:
90 Minutes


----------



----------





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12074


From: Christoph Huber
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger
 
Hi all, I'm new to the list.

Rivette's "Coup de berger" (not that I've seen it, but read a lot on
Rivette for a retrospective recently) follows a fur coat, an, as it
turns out, treacherous present of love, exchanging posessions. It is
often vaguely compared to Ophuls ("Madame de..."), though the story
never fails to remind me of Dahl's "Mrs. Bixby" instead. Anyway,
Rivette relates the anecdote in chess moves in voice over, including
the "sheperd's mate".

Christoph

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan wrote:
> >is "coup de berger" not a reference to chess?
>
> Precisely! Both "le coup du berger" and "le coup de l'escalier" are
chess
> terms. They are used to describe two canonical ways to checkmate. I am
> pretty familiar with these expressions in French as I play chess, but I
> didn't know the English equivalents. They are quite close: the
"Shepherds's
> mate" and the "up the stairs mate." These two mates are generally
easy to
> avoid for an experienced player, but are good examples to learn how
the game
> works.
>
> I don't know what the Rivette short is about
12075


From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger
 
> It is
> often vaguely compared to Ophuls ("Madame de..."), though the story
> never fails to remind me of Dahl's "Mrs. Bixby" instead.

When I saw it, I couldn't help thinking of Rohmer. It's
kind of fun to see the whole gang during the party scene.

Jonathan Takagi
12076


From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger (OT: chess)
 
Christoph Huber wrote:

> ...Anyway,Rivette relates the anecdote in chess moves in voice over, including the "sheperd's mate".
>
>
Ah, so "coup de berger" mean's "Shepherd's Mate"? "Berger" is
"shepherd," right?

In English this is most commonly called (strangely) the "Scholar's
Mate." It is the second shortest possible way to lose a game, in four
moves, and beginners often fall victim to it, and semi-beginners
typically try it on their opponents, but if you know what you're doing
against an opponent trying it against you you'll come out ahead because
it's usually a bad idea to bring out one's queen early.

You can see the moves for the Scholar's Mate as well as the only way to
win in fewer moves (three) at
http://www.chesscorner.com/tutorial/basic/scholars/scholars.htm

- Fred C. (a chess player, not a very good one, but glad to help JPC out
with his French)
12077


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger
 
--- Christoph Huber wrote:
> Hi all, I'm new to the list.
>
> Rivette's "Coup de berger" (not that I've seen it,
> but read a lot on
> Rivette for a retrospective recently) follows a fur
> coat, an, as it
> turns out, treacherous present of love, exchanging
> posessions. It is
> often vaguely compared to Ophuls ("Madame de..."),
> though the story
> never fails to remind me of Dahl's "Mrs. Bixby"
> instead. Anyway,
> Rivette relates the anecdote in chess moves in voice
> over, including
> the "sheperd's mate".
>
>
Actually Rivette's film IS an unacknowleged adaptation
of "Mrs. Bixby and the Colonel's Coat" which was also
made into a TV film for "Alfred Hitchcock Presents"
that was directed by Hitchcock himself.

Think of it as Rivette's "Ossessione"




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12078


From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger (OT: chess)
 
>
> You can see the moves for the Scholar's Mate as well as the only way to
> win in fewer moves (three) at
> http://www.chesscorner.com/tutorial/basic/scholars/scholars.htm

As a die-hard Nabokovian (and Kubrickian, yet who can't even remember
how the different pieces move in the game, let alone "play it"), I find
this extremely interesting -- but I see on that link they have the
Fool's Mate side-by-side with the Scholar's Mate. Wouldn't it be the
Fool's Mate, then, that is the English-language corollary for the
Shepherd's Mate of "coup du berger"? I only put that question forward
because the IMDB entry for 'Coup du berger' lists the film as "...aka,
'Fool's Mate.' "

craig.
12079


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
> It used to be my favorite Mann with THE NAKED SPUR (one of the
> greatest, most perfect westerns ever made)and I remember writing a
> long study about it (MEN IN WAR) when it was released in France. It's
> still very strong, one of the best war movies ever, but not as much
> as NAKED SPUR.

I really like THE NAKED SPUR, but I feel as if there's something a
little bit pat about the underlying drama, a little too much moral
polarity to Stewart's choice about who to be. Whereas MEN IN WAR has no
such comfort: aided by a fine script (is it really by Maddow? Did
Yordan write anything?), Mann demonstrates a painful contradiction,
heightens it to the maximum, and then just leaves it at center stage,
with all the characters speechless before it. - Dan
12080


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger
 
> Rivette's "Coup de berger" (not that I've seen it, but read a lot on
> Rivette for a retrospective recently)

In case anyone forgot, Jonathan R. posted this recently:

"It might interest members to know that an English subtitled AND
letterboxed version of (Le Chant du Styrene) is now available on a
Korean DVD
devoted to Pierre Braunberger's shorts (which also includes such
rarities as Pialat's "L'amour existe", Rivette's "Le coup de
berger," Godard's "Charlotte et son Jules," a Doniol-Valcroze short,
and the very first film of Melville, "24 Heures de la vie d'un
clown". The name of the DVD is a bit of a misnomer: Their First
Films. You can order it from Xploitedcinema.com in the U.S."

- Dan
12081


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger (OT: chess)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
>

> - Fred C. (a chess player, not a very good one, but glad to help
JPC out
> with his French)

Thanks for the help, Fred. I'm learning everyday these days thanks
to a_film_by. So I'll help everybody else by reminding you guys that
it is "Le coup DU berger" not "de". French is such a tough language!

JPC (chess-challenged but willing to learn)
12082


From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger (OT: chess)
 
Craig Keller wrote:

> ....I see on that link they have the
>Fool's Mate side-by-side with the Scholar's Mate. Wouldn't it be the
>Fool's Mate, then, that is the English-language corollary for the
>Shepherd's Mate of "coup du berger"? ....
>

Sometimes the Scholar's Mate has been called the "Fool's Mate," but
that's a mistake, they really are completely different. And I was wrong
about "Fool's Mate" being three moves; it actually can occur in two
moves, if it's white making the wrong moves. I had found few hits for
"coup de berger" but thanks to Jean du Pierre de Coursodon I found more
for "Coup du berger" and the few that I looked at have the moves for the
Scholar's Mate, though sometimes in an extended version. Fool's Mate is
a lot rarer because it requires some weird pawn moves by the player
about to get mated, and so it's more of a curiosity than an actuality,
whereas the Scholar's Mate actually requires some basic strategy on the
part of the winner. I think I got to do a Fool's Mate exactly once in
many games played, whereas against a real neophyte I've accomplished
more than one Scholar's Mate, and had it tried against me many times.

- Fred
12083


From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger
 
for users of E-mule, just type "Their First Films" in the Video Global
search and voilŕ. Very few users to download it from, though.
You gotta love the koreans... they encode nearly everything that gets
released there. If the french were like them, I would already have some
Garrels and Rivettes on CD disks...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Sallitt"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: Translating titles/Coup de berger


> > Rivette's "Coup de berger" (not that I've seen it, but read a lot on
> > Rivette for a retrospective recently)
>
> In case anyone forgot, Jonathan R. posted this recently:
>
> "It might interest members to know that an English subtitled AND
> letterboxed version of (Le Chant du Styrene) is now available on a
> Korean DVD
> devoted to Pierre Braunberger's shorts (which also includes such
> rarities as Pialat's "L'amour existe", Rivette's "Le coup de
> berger," Godard's "Charlotte et son Jules," a Doniol-Valcroze short,
> and the very first film of Melville, "24 Heures de la vie d'un
> clown". The name of the DVD is a bit of a misnomer: Their First
> Films. You can order it from Xploitedcinema.com in the U.S."
>
> - Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
12084


From: Travis Miles
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
I'm keen to ask of any list members who have seen this film (Adrian and
David?) whether they remember a scene with Marina Vlady and the other
principal female lead snuggling in a bathtub. This is not simply out of
prurience (unlike Godard, I don't have the hots for Vlady) but because the
two prints of the film I have seen do not include this scene, which I have
seen in stills (not to be trusted, I know) as well as having read about the
supposed "polysexual" subtext of this film and its function as a sort of
prelude to the absolutely extraordinary pan-sexuality of Private Vices,
Public Virtues (one of my personal Jancso favorites). I have seen a
laser-titled print from the Hungarian Film Archive, and the Grove print. I'm
surprised that the HFA print would be cut in some way, but it appears so.

Adrian, I'm very interested by your heady combination of Baudrillard and
Jancsó. There is much to be said about spectacle in Jancsó's films; my own
disposition leads me to think of it more as pageantry, and to link it to
Jancsó's deep involvement with folk culture. Elektra, My Love, for example,
seems as much puppet show as film to me. But certainly there is an awful lot
of game-playing in Winter Wind, and the heart of that film is the absolute
and saddening disposability of living activism in the face of an enduring
and implacable "idea" of resistance. It is, ultimately, the tragedy of a man
who is given over to the symbolic (from a complex, contradictory person to
an ideal hero); the price being, of course, his life. Perhaps you could talk
a little more on this intersection?

Also, to tie into another recent thread, many of Jancsó's films have
considerably more attractive titles in literal translation than their
accepted English titles. Red and the White=Soldiers of the Star, The Round
Up=The Hopeless Ones, The Confrontation=Sparkling Wind, Winter Wind=Sirocco
of Winter.

And for those of you interested, there is a fantastic online resource for
Jancsó, a web-version of a CD-ROM previously only available through the
Hungarian Film Archive, all in English with film clips and interviews!!!
http://www.eqnet.hu/jancso/fomenu/fomenu.html

T

On 7/9/04 7:45 AM, "Adrian Martin" wrote:

> Kevin J asks: "Anyone seen this? Thoughts appreciated."
>
> I LOVE this film, one of Jancsó's very best, in my opinion. (I also like a
> little-seen one made in Italy with Monica Vitti and Pierre Clémenti, THE
> PACIFIST which I caught on TV here in Australia years ago.) Curiously, I saw
> and taught WINTER WIND in some 'contemporary cinema' class of about 1982,
> and the synchronous reading experience of the group was the wave of Jean
> Baudrillard translations in the early 80s: even though Baudrillard and
> Jancsó have nothing literally in common (and these two 'texts' are years
> apart), it was amazing how "The Precession of Simulacra" essay by JB chimed
> in with WINTER WIND for me and the students, since it is such a film about
> supposedly spontaneous political acts becoming spectacles, the circularity
> of illusion and reality, the unusual games that emerge in a treacherously
> 'mediated' world, etc etc. Another film of the time that spoke of these
> things with some complexity - a film now quite forgotten, it seems to me -
> is Bertolucci's TRAGEDY OF A RIDICULOUS MAN: remember that a lot of the
> Baudrillard-type writings of that time (and a lot of these came from Italy:
> Autonomia and all that) were precisely about the paradoxes of terrorism
> becoming a 'State-controlled spectacle' and the State's sneaky policies of
> 'deterrence'. It was a particular intellectual tool-box that seems to have
> well and truly had its day in the 'post September 11 world': Baudrillard's
> Sophism applied to recent world traumas seems to have very few fans!! Ah,
> nobody writes theoretical treatises anymore with Baudrillard-speciality
> titles like "What Are You Doing After the Orgy" !!!!
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
12085


From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> "Anyone seen any early, pre-T-Men Anthony Mann flix? Strangers in
the
> Night, The Bamboo Blonde, The Great Flamarion, etc.? Thoughts
> appreciated."

He was always a superb director from what I've seen. DESPERATE has an
interesting script: Steve Brody witnesses a robbery and flees the
city with his wife. They become farmers, and a year must pass because
they have time to bring in a crop before the baddies (led by Raymond
Burr)catch up with them.
12086


From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
Baudrillard's
> Sophism applied to recent world traumas seems to have very few
fans!! Ah,
> nobody writes theoretical treatises anymore with Baudrillard-
speciality
> titles like "What Are You Doing After the Orgy" !!!!
>
> Adrian

Love Jansco (but find him depressing), don't care for Baudrillard,
although "Sophism" with a big S is the best positive spin I've heard
anyone put on him. Guy Debord alludes in some aphorism to people who
have built entire careers on a few ideas boosted from The Society of
the Spectacle, and JB would be first on my list of guesses about who
he meant. It would be a pretty long list, though. Do you like Debord,
Adrian? He's recommended reading for anyone who doesn't know him and
wants good bg on demonlover -- he's Olivier Assayas's Main Man.
12087


From: Doug Cummings
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Scorsese's prints
 
>Like most retrospectives in NYC these days, this one will depend on
>what prints Scorsese has in his collection and is willing to lend.

This is such an odd fact. I recall that the longer cut of "Andrei
Rublev" (as seen on the Criterion DVD and Kino's recent
retrospective) was procured from Scorsese as well. Does the guy
really have a miniature cinematheque?

Doug
12088


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jancso's Winter Wind
 
--- Travis Miles wrote:
> I'm keen to ask of any list members who have seen
> this film (Adrian and
> David?) whether they remember a scene with Marina
> Vlady and the other
> principal female lead snuggling in a bathtub. This
> is not simply out of
> prurience (unlike Godard, I don't have the hots for
> Vlady) but because the
> two prints of the film I have seen do not include
> this scene, which I have
> seen in stills (not to be trusted, I know) as well
> as having read about the
> supposed "polysexual" subtext of this film and its
> function as a sort of
> prelude to the absolutely extraordinary
> pan-sexuality of Private Vices,
> Public Virtues (one of my personal Jancso
> favorites). I have seen a
> laser-titled print from the Hungarian Film Archive,
> and the Grove print. I'm
> surprised that the HFA print would be cut in some
> way, but it appears so.
>
It's been over thirty years since I've seen this film,
but I do recall sapphic touches. Nothing too explicit.
In fact such things are common to most of Jansco.

> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>




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12089


From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:57pm
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
I would think that (even apart from the example of Japanese theater)
there are "conventions" of period movement which actors learn (and
which opera singers in today's "updated" performances, for example,
have to unlearn). The object being not necessarily historical
accuracy, but its obverse: avoidance of anachronism of the most
glaringly obvious kind. Whereas something like the
contemporary "What?" that's been mentioned goes well out of its way
NOT to avoid anachronism. Another one (perhaps also already
mentioned): the ubiquitous, and dreaded, "I *need you to* (do this or
that)" -- which almost always strikes me as the sure sign of an
author with a tin ear (although I'm sure someone will now point out
its antecedents in Shakespeare and before...!)

Not at all -- it's quite contemporary. Certainly a minimal efort can
be made, but people like the Coens don't care. I mentioned "shooting
ourselves in the foot" cropping up in Miller's Crossing -- a film I
like very much -- and they just shrugged.

It's a big overstatement, JP, that we can't know how people used to
talk. We have had recording devices for over a hundred years, and
before that there were recording devices called plays and novels.
Legions of academics -- the useful kind -- study the history of
language, and sometimes they actually used to get called in on films.
Of course glaring things like "What?" or "shoot ourselves in the
foot" or "I need you to" crop up today because no one under 30 is
writing scripts any more, a larger problem of which this is just a
symptom.
12090


From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: THX (was:: 'celluloid film' is altered)
 
Then there's going back and actually remaking your movie. OK with me
as long as the old version remains available, which I fear it may not
in this case. I love Star Wars, but I'm no fan of the re-jiggered
version:

http://www.davisdvd.com/bin/extras3.html
12091


From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:08pm
Subject: Re: THX (was:: 'celluloid film' is altered)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Then there's going back and actually remaking your movie. OK with
me
> as long as the old version remains available, which I fear it may
not
> in this case. I love Star Wars, but I'm no fan of the re-jiggered
> version:
>
> http://www.davisdvd.com/bin/extras3.html

Ah, laserdisc.

-Jaime
 
12092


From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:14pm
Subject: Re: Terror in the Aisles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> Anybody see this the past few days? Future showings listed
below
>
>
> Terror in the Aisles
> CATEGORY:
> Horror
> SYNOPSIS:
> Donald Pleasence and Nancy Allen show clips from ``The
Shining,''
> ``The Exorcist'' and other shockers.


I have seen the film as a teenager on both tape and cable, and
watched it again back in 1992. It's pretty mediocre, and since it
was produced/released by Universal there is a heavy reliance on
Universal horror films, and current ones at that. When
"Halloween" is mentioned or shown, it's "Halloween 2" clips that
are mainly used for Universal distributed it. (The best part, for
me, is when Donald Pleasence yells, "Get him!" from the
audience when Michael Myers is stabbed/shot.) "Jaws 2" gets
more screen time than "Jaws", but I remember reading a
Sarris's review of "Jaws 2" in which he said he liked the sequel
better in some aspects. (In terms of a lonely outpost, I'm there
for having affection for some of Jeannot Szwarc's films. He's
clumsy, but some of his films have a charming gentleness to
them. --Now this is just a warm affection, not a serious claim, so
please hold your protests--)

I don't know what ratio the film was shot in, but a lot of the later
films they show were shot in Panavision.

Michael Worrall
12093


From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Terror in the Aisles
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> Anybody see this the past few days? Future showings listed
below
>
>
> Terror in the Aisles
> CATEGORY:
> Horror
> SYNOPSIS:
> Donald Pleasence and Nancy Allen show clips from ``The
Shining,''
> ``The Exorcist'' and other shockers.


I have seen the film as a teenager on both tape and cable, and
watched it again back in 1992. It's pretty mediocre, and since it
was produced/released by Universal there is a heavy reliance on
Universal horror films, and current ones at that. When
"Halloween" is mentioned or shown, it's "Halloween 2" clips that
are mainly used for Universal distributed it. (The best part, for
me, is when Donald Pleasence yells, "Get him!" from the
audience when Michael Myers is stabbed/shot.) "Jaws 2" gets
more screen time than "Jaws", but I remember reading a
Sarris's review of "Jaws 2" in which he said he liked the sequel
better in some aspects. (In terms of a lonely outpost, I'm there
for having affection for some of Jeannot Szwarc's films. He's
clumsy, but some of his films have a charming gentleness to
them. --Now this is just a warm affection, not a serious claim, so
please hold your protests--)

I don't know what ratio the film was shot in, but a lot of the later
films they show were shot in Panavision.

Michael Worrall
12094


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Scorsese's prints
 
--- Doug Cummings wrote:

> Does the guy
> really have a miniature cinematheque?
>
Yes he does. Marty has been collecting films for a
considerable number of years now. The "My Voyage to
Italy" documentary grew directly out of his collection
of Italian films. He also has a rather amazing
collection of film posters as well. I trust he'll have
an exhibit of them one day. If you ever get the chance
to drop into his New York office you can see a great
number of them framed and on his office and conference
room walls. he has a particularly striking one for "Accatone."




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12095


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:45pm
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
>
> It's a big overstatement, JP, that we can't know how people used to
> talk. We have had recording devices for over a hundred years, and
> before that there were recording devices called plays and novels.
> Legions of academics -- the useful kind -- study the history of
> language, and sometimes they actually used to get called in on
films.
>
No it's not an overstatement. Plays and novels are definitely NOT
recording devices. Even when they claim to be "realistic"
or "naturalistic" they recycle spoken language to an aesthetic
purpose and come out very different from the reality of spontaneous
speech. And as I wrote in a previous post, even the first 50 years
(at least) of the age of sound recording are quite poor in actual
documents of ordinary people speaking. We have speeches by
politicians and heads of states, poetry recitations, all very formal
and artificial; and lots of singing of course... The legions of
academics you mention are mostly studying written language and trying
to draw tentative conclusions on how spoken language might have
sounded. Sure they can tell us that such and such word was pronounced
this way in the 16th century and that way in the 18th. They can
derive an idea of the evolution of vowels from poetry rimes and
things like that, but they don't really know "how people talked".

JPC
12096


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:56pm
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann (and mid, and late)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
.
>
> I really like THE NAKED SPUR, but I feel as if there's something a
> little bit pat about the underlying drama, a little too much moral
> polarity to Stewart's choice about who to be. . - Dan


The Stewart character is a good, decent man who throughout the
film (and long before the action starts) has been driven by strong
negative (although understandable) motivations. When the climax comes
he must be made to realize that his relentless pursuit of his goal is
ultimately destructive -- the girl helps him resolving this moral
conflict. It may be traditional and a bit pat, but very powerful
nonetheless. And the moral issue is enormously helped by Mann's
tremendous use of his location, the high ledge over the roaring river
from which he is trying to retrieve Ryan's body. I know of few scenes
that put space to such powerful use. This is where Mann is best in
his westerns -- the use of wild nature. His exteriors always fit the
requirements of the plot and express the moral and psychological
tensions in it. As I wrote somewhere, "practically every scene [in
NAKED SPUR] deals at the same time with the relationship between five
characters and their relationship to the surrounding landscape;
everything that happens is either determined or influence by the
topography."

JPC
12097


From: Doug Cummings
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Scorsese's prints
 
> > Does the guy really have a miniature cinematheque?
>
>Yes he does. Marty has been collecting films for a
>considerable number of years now. The "My Voyage to
>Italy" documentary grew directly out of his collection
>of Italian films.

And of course, that was just released on DVD this week. I was struck
by how good many of those prints actually looked.

It reminds me that I've always appreciated Scorsese more as a film
activist than a filmmaker. Has anyone seen his new doc on British
cinema or are we waiting for a NYFF premiere?

Doug
12098


From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:05pm
Subject: Re: contemporary language in old films
 
JPC:
>
> >
> No it's not an overstatement. Plays and novels are definitely
NOT
> recording devices. Even when they claim to be "realistic"
> or "naturalistic" they recycle spoken language to an aesthetic
> purpose and come out very different from the reality of
spontaneous
> speech.

I agree, and this is a topic I sort of became obsessed about a few
years ago. While something like Shakespeare's or Marlowe's works can
give us an idea of what language was like back in the Elizabethan
age, as artificial, dramatic constructs (in verse, usually) they are
pretty much useless in showing us how average people spoke. I'm sure
they didn't speak in iambic pentameter, for one. Even today, films
which are ostensibly realistic don't quite cut it. Heck, even
documentaries are to some extent compromised by the fact that the
characters are usually aware that there are cameras there. And look
at the wildly divergent forms of "documentary" that are out there
for us today: Needless to say, people in MTV's The Real World act
and speak much differently than people in a Wiseman film. And while
Wiseman is certainly the greater artist, I don't think he is
necessarily showing us something all that much closer to reality. At
best, it's still an attempt at a representation, not the real thing.

In fact, one might say (I don't know if I agree) that a work sort of
loses its relevance as a primary document at the very moment it
becomes art. In other words, life doesn't look like a Henri Cartier-
Bresson photograph.


> And as I wrote in a previous post, even the first 50 years
> (at least) of the age of sound recording are quite poor in actual
> documents of ordinary people speaking. We have speeches by
> politicians and heads of states, poetry recitations, all very
formal
> and artificial; and lots of singing of course...

This sort of recording is interesting to me as a way of
understanding people's tastes, more than anything. It's amazing how
different intonations and vocal ranges appeal to different
generations over the years. FDR is generally regarded as a great
speaker among US Presidents. But any politician that ran today with
FDR's pitch and his verbal mannerisms would probably get laughed off
the stage today. Probably the same with someone like JFK. (Oddly
enough, Nixon and his gruff, offhand belligerence appear to have
held up well -- I wonder what that says about today's political
climate.)

-Bilge
12099


From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:25pm
Subject: issue 19, scope
 
The new issue of Cinema Scope is either the crankiest or most insightful fi=
lm criticism
I have read all year. From Mark's editorial: "There's nothing wrong with be=
ing negative
from time to time, and there are plenty of curmudgeons out there who I'm su=
re will
agree with me-- and even more who would agree if they, too, had to get up a=
t 8 in
the morning to see THE EDUKATORS instead of a new film from Hou Hsiao-hsien=
."

I have always retained a little naďveté (okay -- a lot) in beleiving, despi=
te the
overwhelming negativity from most of the critics I like, that there might b=
e something
in films like THE EDUKATORS.. or let me rephrase that just slightly: that e=
very film is
worth seeing, at least once. Mark's issue decries that, NO, THE MOTORCYCLE =
DIARIES
and THE EDUKATORS are not worth seeing, really, that Cannes are a bunch of =
pussies
for showing them.

The remarkable thing about the issue (remarkable considering no one in Nort=
h
America is as consistent about their tastes as Cinema Scope establishes in =
this issue)
is that it opens the debate and then proceeds to defend the films that -- a=
s mark
says -- we, the small two or three thousand who read this magazine like (by=
directors
we like, etc.) The most illuminating remark by Mark says that, while the se=
lection in
Cannes last year seemed at first like a horrible blunder, it was actually, =
in retrospect,
quite interesting.

So even Mark is a little naďve, if I may say that without offending him.

There, I feel better now... Also I'm ready as hell for the fall to start se=
eing all these
films.

Gabe
12100


From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:35pm
Subject: Texts on Horror (Was: Terror in the Aisles)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> Anybody see this the past few days? Future showings listed
below
>
>
> Terror in the Aisles
> CATEGORY:
> Horror
> SYNOPSIS:
> Donald Pleasence and Nancy Allen show clips from ``The
Shining,''
> ``The Exorcist'' and other shockers.


Elizabeth,

If you haven't already, you may want to check out the following
books on horror that have a lot more insight than "Terror in the
Aisles"

For theoretical writings on horror I would recommend: "The
Fantastic" by Tzvetan Todorov, "The Paradox of Horror" by Noel
Carroll and "Men, Women and Chainsaws" by Carol Clover.
"Chainsaws" focus more on horror films from the 1970's on.

For a more general survey I would also recommend David Skal's
"The Monster Show".

Michael Worrall

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