Home Film
Art
Other: (Travel, Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact
a_film_by Main Page
Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
Important: The copyright of each post below is owned by the
person who wrote the post, and reproducing it in any form requires
that person's permission.
It is possible to email the author of any post by finding a post
they have written in the a_film_by archives at
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/messages and
emailing them from that Web site.
12101
From: Sam Adams
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:41pm
Subject: eMule (was Re: translating titles
Well, I'll bite, since your mentions have piqued my interest -- do you (or anyone else) know if there's a good (i.e.) workable eMule client for the Macintosh? I've tried to find one through google, but I keep getting French-language help pages since "émule" seems to be a pretty common verb in French computerese.
I'll lay down a tip of my own, which I meant to post to Elizabeth last week: you can circumvent the Mac's region coding by downloading any DVD playing application (I use VLC) and setting the Apple DVD Player's preferences so it doesn't automatically launch when you insert a disc. You're region-free for all intents and purpose after that.
Sam
Ruy wrote:
for users of E-mule, just type "Their First Films" in the Video Global
search and voilà. Very few users to download it from, though.
You gotta love the koreans... they encode nearly everything that gets
released there. If the french were like them, I would already have some
12102
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:45pm
Subject: Strategic Air Command and more (was: Anthony Mann)
STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND doesn't get mentioned much. This is probably
because it isn't very good: bland, aimless, and earnest, more a
showcase for VistaVision than for Mann, Stewart, or even June
Allyson. (I always tend to like Frank Lovejoy, though, he's great
in Lupino's HITCH-HIKER.)
The last fifteen minutes are surprisingly powerful, and may make the
film worth seeing.
Anybody willing to defend GOD'S LITTLE ACRE? Gawd, what a
hysterical mess, with Robert Ryan committing unspeakable acts of
scenery chewing. Also stars Buddy Hackett and a couple of enormous,
overflowing bosoms.
-Jaime
12103
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Scorsese's prints
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Doug Cummings
wrote:
>
> And of course, that was just released on DVD this week. I was
struck
> by how good many of those prints actually looked.
>
When John Boorman (yes, it's a compulsion with me) screened
his own print of "Point Blank" at the New York Film Festival a few
years back, he was shocked to see that it had faded with a
reddish tint. Jack Angstreich, a member of this board, told
Boorman about the quality of Scorsese's print. Boorman got in
contact with Scorsese's people and screened that print.
Boorman later thanked Jack.
As a side note, Boorman donated prints of his films to the BFI
but had a difficult time getting them to let him use the prints. "But
these are my films!!" Boorman protested.
If the fading of the "Point Blank" has something to do with BFI's
archive, then who is minding the store? Is Alan Parker going to
sell off those prints, Nick?
Michael Worrall
12104
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 8:58pm
Subject: Re: Jeannot Szwarc was: Terror in the Aisles
(In terms of a lonely outpost, I'm there
> for having affection for some of Jeannot Szwarc's films. He's
> clumsy, but some of his films have a charming gentleness to
> them. --Now this is just a warm affection, not a serious claim, so
> please hold your protests--)
I also have some affection for a lot of Szarc's films. "Somewhere in
Time" was just fantastic. It's interesting to see how his career and
Spielberg's differed, after having both started out at Universal in
television. Sadly, his career now has denegrated to episodes of "JAG"
and "Ally McBeal".
I'd like to read Sarris's review for "Jaws 2", as I like it more than
the original in some respects too. Szwarc's very animated on the dvd
documentary and shares quite a few fond memories of the production -
if only they could have sat him down for a commentary track!
Looking through his filmography on imdb, it mentions a tv movie from
1995 called "Laura" (a Preminger remake?) with Charles Aznavour.
Seems intriguing.
-Aaron
12105
From: joey lindsey
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 9:22pm
Subject: DC rental resources
I know there's been a list of regional avant-gard/independent/auteur
friendly video rental stores on here before, but i can't find it at the
moment, and netflix has been removing several dvds from their
circulation (due to demand, they say - probably due to theft). I was
looking forward to seeing *Chushingura, *for instance, and they no
longer offer it. I have recently moved from Chicago to Washington, DC,
and am missing the Facets like mad. If anyone knows somewhere to get
good stuff from around here I'd appreciate the info.
respond on or off list at your discretion.
joey lindsey
12106
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Jeannot Szwarc
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Graham"
wrote:
> I also have some affection for a lot of Szarc's films.
"Somewhere in
> Time" was just fantastic.
That film has some real genuine tender and charming
moments, as well as "Supergirl" -- a film I find gets unfairly
beaten up and "Santa Claus" --probably to me Szwarc's most
successful film which gets discounted because it was a big box
office bomb. Szwarc's temperament is out of tune with more
cynical commercial filmmakers of the past 22 years, and while
"Supergirl" has lapses of bad or strained attempts at camp --
though I love a few of Dunaway's lines-- it has an infectious
childlike charm. The film is a collection of small, simple
pleasures, rather than one big action set piece after another.
Szwarc himself has said it is more of fantasy in the vein of
"Wizard of Oz" than a super-hero action film. ( I am talking about
the 124 minute international version, not the butchered version
that landed on American shores. And yes, I thought someone
had tapped into my lifelong obsession when Anchor Bay
released the "Director's Cut".)
What may be a sign of arrested development in me is the
tracking shot of Santa Claus and the reindeer charging out of the
toy warehouse, with Mancini's score in the back, always brings
tears to my eyes. (It's a great JDC Scope shot, with the elves on
both sides of the frame cheering- it gets destroyed in pan and
scan.)
Well it's out of the closet, my love of fantasy and Jeannot Szwarc.
(Can you forgive me for Szwarc, Dave Kehr?)
I believe in fairies,
Michael Worrall
12107
From: Damien Bona
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 9:43pm
Subject: How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old films)
To get a really good feel of how people talked 50 to 50 years ago, I
recommend listening to old time radio programs, which are quite
prevalent around the Internet (as on such sites as Live 365). Shows
dealing with middle-class, Middle America (such as "Fibber McGee and
Molly," "One Man's Family" and the brilliantly satirical "Vic and
Sade"). And crime shows offer some fascinating examples of mid-20th
century vernacular. Perhaps best of all for getting a handle on
average Americans are quiz programs or other audience participation
shows (such as "The Breakfast Club," which consisted primarily of
middle-aged lasies in the audience identifying themselves and their
hometowns) on which regular folks expressed themselves in unscripted
regular folks fashion.
-- Damien
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
even the first 50 years
> (at least) of the age of sound recording are quite poor in actual
> documents of ordinary people speaking. We have speeches by
> politicians and heads of states, poetry recitations, all very
formal
> and artificial; and lots of singing of course... The legions of
> academics you mention are mostly studying written language and
trying
> to draw tentative conclusions on how spoken language might have
> sounded. Sure they can tell us that such and such word was
pronounced
> this way in the 16th century and that way in the 18th. They can
> derive an idea of the evolution of vowels from poetry rimes and
> things like that, but they don't really know "how people talked".
>
> JPC
12108
From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:11pm
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
Here's Dan Turner, the Hollywood Detective, in full flight, from a 1930's
pulp magazine:
"A hulking lug in a chauffeur's uniform barged out of the limousine's tonneau
and planted his oversize brogan on my running board. He had an improvised
handkerchief mask over the lower section of his pan and a blue-barreled automatic
in his duke. He said 'Freeze, snoop, or I'll perforate you like a canceled
check.'"
-Robert Leslie Bellem, "Drunk, Disorderly and Dead" (1940)
They don't write dialogue like this anymore...
Marc Singer did a good job playing Dan in the movie "Dan Turner, the
Hollywood Detective: The Raven Red Kiss-Off" (Christopher Lewis, 1990). Lewis' mother
was Loretta Young. The film was shot in Tulsa, which does look authentically
1930ish somehow.
Mike Grost
12109
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Strategic Air Command and more (was: Anthony Mann)
Jaime N. Christley wrote:
>STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND doesn't get mentioned much. This is probably
>because it isn't very good: bland, aimless, and earnest...
>
Well, I remember it from only one viewing as uneven but mostly really
good, with the sky functioning in this film the way the land does in
Mann's westerns, in a tension with the characters and movement.
- Fred C.
12110
From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:06pm
Subject: Re: A Dandy in Aspic (was: Anthony Mann)
Really liked "A Dandy in Aspic", Mann's last film, but seem to be in a
minority of one on this. It returns to some of the feel of Mann's 40's film noir.
"The Heroes of Telemark" is also visually striking. It reminds one, of all
things, "Stalker" (Tarkovsky).
Mike Grost
12111
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:11pm
Subject: Flying Leathernecks, Strategic Air Command)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Well, I remember it from only one viewing as uneven but mostly really
> good, with the sky functioning in this film the way the land does in
> Mann's westerns, in a tension with the characters and movement.
I'll have to check it out again and think about that - hopefully it'll
be included in the retrospective. And given those terms (and the fact
that it was shot on VistaVision), you'd probably have to discount a
video viewing even more than usual.
How do you feel about the stock footage used in the flying sequences
in Nicholas Ray's FLYING LEATHERNECKS? It's hardly one of his
greatest films but I'd be interested to hear if you think the footage
(which Ray, of course, didn't have a hand in shooting) was used in a
meaningful, "Ray-esque" way.
-Jaime
12112
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: A Dandy in Aspic (was: Anthony Mann)
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Really liked "A Dandy in Aspic", Mann's last film,
> but seem to be in a
> minority of one on this. It returns to some of the
> feel of Mann's 40's film noir.
> "The Heroes of Telemark" is also visually striking.
> It reminds one, of all
> things, "Stalker" (Tarkovsky).
>
He died mid-shooting and the film was completed by
Laurence Harvey. It's not bad.
As for "Strategic Air Command" I recally the comedian
John Byner doing a particularly hilarious imitation of
June Allyson in that film. ("Oh Jimmy, please don't go
on the bombing mission tonight.")
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12113
From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:21pm
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>The film was shot in Tulsa, which does look authentically
> 1930ish somehow.
>
The great sarcastic example of dyschronicity lies in an episode of
South Park where a man is found frozen in a glacier. Upon thawing him
out, it is discovered that he comes from (gasp!) 1996. The problems
of adjusting to the culture and mores of 2003 keep mounting until all
is resolved by shipping him to Des Moines, Iowa, because there "it's
still 1996".
--Robert Keser
12114
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Re: Strategic Air Command and more (was: Anthony Mann)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jaime N. Christley"
"Anybody willing to defend GOD'S LITTLE ACRE? Gawd, what a
hysterical mess, with Robert Ryan committing unspeakable acts of
scenery chewing. Also stars Buddy Hackett and a couple of enormous,
overflowing bosoms."
UCLA Film and Television Archives screened a restored print of GOD'S
LITTLE ACRE as part of its festival of preservation afew years ago.
It's hysteria and caricature (including Ryan's performance) were all
of a piece, and the decayed plantation and run down adjacent
landscape functioned the way landscape and characters did in other
more highly regarded Mann films of the 1950s. The black and white
location photography and the night-for-night scenes gave the movie a
dimensional and palpable quality that was very effective.
As for STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND, I haven't seen it in many years but the
contrast of plane interiors with the vast blue sky was memorable.
Richard
12115
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:44am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
It's remarkable, but sad, how a thread starts to peter out and dies
down into meaningless trivia just when it seemed it was going to
become interesting.
Oh well, that's the nature of the medium I guess.
JPC
12116
From: Nick
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Jancso / Scorsese / Parker
(Fascinating Jancso conversation. I love his films, but haven't seen
WINTER WIND. There's a coherent run-through/review of the film by
someone at imdb. I dream of Criterion getting hold of one... Jancso's
scope would look incredible, rather than Facets' Vaseline-o-vision
DVD.)
---
I remember Scorsese talking to Mark Cousins on the UK TV series "SCENE
BY SCENE" circa 1996/7 (pre-DVD), and Scorsese was dismayed that
Dreyer's PASSION OF JOAN wasn't available to buy in any decent form.
They talked for a while about how Scorsese has a huge collection of VHS
taped from various TV stations over the previous 25 years or so, and he
specifically mentions his rare tape of PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC. I think
it was 2 years later that Criterion released their gorgeous DVD. How
things have changed in 7 or so years...
---
> If the fading of the "Point Blank" has something to do with BFI's
> archive, then who is minding the store? Is Alan Parker going to sell
> off those prints, Nick?
That's SIR ALAN PARKER, thank you please!
(POINT BLANK is MGM. It's unlikely that the faded prints came from the
bfi archive, but I suppose it's possible. They seem to do a very fine
job usually.)
btw. Sir Alan Parker leaves his Film Council post at the end of this
month and his successor is Stewart Till (head of UIP, and one of the
3,503 people who have ever laid claim to commissioning/acquiring
NOTTING HILL, FOUR WEDDINGS AND A FUNERAL, and BEAN). Till is one of
many CBE-endowed "living saints of film" who are continuously rewarded
by govt. *and* crown for their services to British film. Little of
these saints' work is apparent in the outside world to normal people
but I hear they do a lot of behind the scenes greenlighting of projects
(the occasional dreadful, dreadful British film - usually paid for with
Lottery money, etc.) The saints have a bit more work to do before they
completely erode all the independently-owned British cinemas in favour
of the American "multiperplex". 99.4% American toothrot in British
cinemas is not high enough a percentage apparently.
I'd expect a few public floggings were in order rather than CBEs.
Sir Alan Parker has already picked his goldleaf-lined, opal-inlaid
storage chest for the original negative elements of BUGSY MALONE and
FAME at the National Film and Television Archive.
It's crazy, but when he dies, the Queen plans to canonize Sir Alan and
make him a saint. A statue of Saint Alan Parker will then replace
Admiral Nelson atop Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square, London (to be
renamed Parker's Column) and screenings of EVITA shall no doubt blare
non-stop from flat-screen monitors at local cafes.
-Nick Wrigley>-
12117
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:28am
Subject: Re: Jancso / Scorsese / Parker
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick wrote:
>
> (POINT BLANK is MGM. It's unlikely that the faded prints came
from the
> bfi archive, but I suppose it's possible. They seem to do a very
fine
> job usually.)
From what I understand, the print of "Point Blank" that Boorman
initially screened was his print that was stored at the BFI. I was
also reminded today that at the screening, the film was projected
with incorrect masking- cutting off a lot of the sides. When an
audience member asked Boorman why he was upset, he said
:"Because there's more!!"
> It's crazy, but when he dies, the Queen plans to canonize Sir
Alan and
> make him a saint. A statue of Saint Alan Parker will then replace
> Admiral Nelson atop Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square,
London (to be
> renamed Parker's Column) and screenings of EVITA shall no
doubt blare
> non-stop from flat-screen monitors at local cafes.
>
Oh, if only Sheryl Lansing had greenlighted Russell to direct
"Evita" in the late 70's.
Michael Worrall
12118
From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 10:50pm
Subject: Re: How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in ...
Some more thoughts:
1) Capturing the past involves deep soaking in an era. John Ford had Frank
Nugent read over 75 books about the cavalry before writing "Fort Apache".
(Source: Tag Gallagher's book) And Max Ophuls clearly had a deep knowledge of old
Vienna and old Paris.
There are science fiction novels about people who live the lifestyles of
different eras, trying to recreate them: Clifford D. Simak's "Ring Around the Sun"
(1952), Ray Nelson's "Then Beggars Could Ride" (1976).
Robert Hughes' documentary "American Visions" (1997) shows us people living
in Williamsburg, Virginia, and in recreated Puritan villages in Massachusetts.
In Olmi's "The Tree of Wooden Clogs", the actors apparently lived in the
village for a year. Similarly in Kevin Brownlow's "Winstanley".
In Ken Burns' documentaries, people read as many authentic documents as
possible. There are whole books that are nothing but historical documents; there is
a famous documentary life of Bach, for example. Reading documents gives an
inside view of an era.
2) In mystery fiction, the 1920's are seen as the start of the Golden Age.
This was a period when mysteries were the MOST plot-oriented. This was seen as a
good thing in mystery culture; many cinephiles today are outspoken opponents
of plot, however.
There is a trend to set plot-oriented mysteries written today in the 1920's.
Edward D. Hoch (the best living mystery writer) set his Dr. Sam Hawthorne
tales there; so have others.
Following suit, my own plot-oriented mysteries take place in 1920's
Hollywood. This captures both the Golden Age of mystery fiction, and the creative
explosion of silent cinema.
Writing 1920's dialogue is not easy. I go by instinct. You definitely avoid
obvious anachronisms in the dialogue. And you try to get a certain exploratory
rhythm. People were CURIOUS in the 1920's. Everything seemed interesting to
them. The dialogue tries to capture this curiosity and open mindedness.
3) Much of Elizabethan theater is in prose, not verse. Whole plays, such as
Thomas Dekker's "The Shoemaker's Holiday", are in prose. I've read mountains of
Elizabethan literature all my life. It definitely reorients you. It is clear
that Elizabethans actually aspired to talk as well as their poets and
playwrights. Obviously, they could not have succeeded as well in conversation as
Shakespeare, but they apparently tried. Shakespeare was a brilliant
conversationalist (source: Ben Jonson), and his conversation and the dialogue in his plays
are probably much closer than one might expect.
4) In "Singin in the Rain", the studio head says something like "Making
talking pictures is easy. You just take silent pictures, and add people talking.
Right?" I believe that that is exactly what did NOT happen - perhaps
unfortunately. Instead, I think than much of Hollywood completely scrapped silent film
technique, and instead modeled films on Broadway plays. 1930's films often seem
much closer in every way to 1920's theater, than they do to 1920's silent
films. There are filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film, such as John
Ford, but even he brought in Broadway actors such as Spenser Tracy to star in
his pictures, rather than using his silent stars such as George O'Brien.
It is eerie to look at casts of old Broadway plays. Many of the people we
think of as "film stars" really started out as Broadway actors. It was hard to
make it in 1930's-1950's Hollywood without being a Broadway star first.
More later on this whole subject.
Mike Grost
12119
From:
Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:15pm
Subject: Re:more on Bellem (was contemporary language in ...
Robert Leslie Bellem is considered one of the major prose stylists of mystery
fiction, albeit a dementedly humorous one.
In 1923, Carroll John Daly introduced the first hard-boiled private eye in
"Three-Gun Terry". Daly's tales, such as "The Snarl of the Beast", also
introduced the concept of the humorously wise-cracking P I.
Daly, in turn, influenced Bellem's "Dan Turner" stories, and Raymond
Chandler's "Philip Marlowe". All three of their detectives were famous for their
baroque similies and wry cracks. Such stories played a major role in the
development of American vernacular prose styles. They were cultural ideals, as well as
works that were cherished by millions of people.
Bellem's outrageous extravagence of language was spoofed by S. J. Perelman in
"The New Yorker", no less. Bellem was so famous in his era that he had his
own pulp magazine, exclusively devoted to his Dan Turner stories.
What is often considered the best Dan Turner tale, "Homicide Highball", is
available in "The Oxford Book of American Detective Stories", a quasi-canonical
anthology edited by Tony Hillerman and Rosemary Herbert. It's in most
libraries...
The Christopher Lewis film, "Dan Turner, Hollywood Detective: The Raven Red
Kiss-Off" (1990), is based on "Homicide Highball".
There is nothing trivial about any of this. If you want to learn about how
Americans tried to speak in the 1930's and 1940's, here is one main place to
start.
By the way, Tulsa is one of the main centers of Art Deco architecture in the
US. Its distinctive building style does indeed evoke another era.
Mike Grost
12120
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:16am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
>
> It's remarkable, but sad, how a thread starts to peter out and dies
> down into meaningless trivia just when it seemed it was going to
> become interesting.
>
> Oh well, that's the nature of the medium I guess.
>
> JPC
Far be it from me to let that happen. As the person who brought this
up, let me say that quite apart from the obvious distinctions between
language use in art and language use in life, philologists can do
statistical and structural analysis of the enormous archives of all
kinds that we possess going all the way back to Anglo-Saxon times to
determine simple things like whether Claudius would have said to
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern "I need you to kill Hamlet for me" in
life, on the stage, or anywhere else. And the fact that they can't
know if how he would have pronounced Hamlet's name with any
certainty, for example, is irrelevant to answering that simple
question.
I believe Hollywood movies used to pay more attention to avoiding
glaring, verifiable anachronisms of this kind -- my example
was "What" as a way of getting someone to talk, which is no older
than 10 years, to my ear -- than they do today.
When Hitchcock had a script of Torn Curtain that satisfied him, he
gave it to an expert on East Germany for vetting. You can read the
correspondence at the Herrick. While he drew the line at tossing out
his key scene because isolated farmhouses no longer existed there,
thanks to collectivization, he was very concerned to get everything
right that he possibly could -- even to the extent of having someone
surreptitiously record crowd and traffic noise on the other side of
the Wall for use in the film. He hated getting letters from people
who had caught him out in factual mistakes. He would bring that up
all the time in script conferences, memos to collaborators etc.
People who write and act and produce and direct movies in which King
Arthur says "What?" to Guinevere when he sees there's something on
her mind that she doesn't want to talk about SIMPLY DON'T KNOW
ANYTHING ABOUT LANGUAGE. ("He could see I had something on my mind,
Lancelot, and I'm like, should I tell him about us or not?") They
don't know, for example, that it changes -- that what they would say
in that situation is not the English language now and always. And to
whatever extent they know this -- I cited the Coens, who aren't
dopes -- they don't care. Which irritates me.
Of course there are any number of good reasons that can be imagined
for using anachronism -- Shakespeare did: cf. the gun in Julius
Caesar -- but that's also beside the rather simple point I was making.
12121
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:52am
Subject: Re: How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in ...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"Writing 1920's dialogue is not easy. I go by instinct. You
definitely avoid obvious anachronisms in the dialogue. And you try
to get a certain exploratory rhythm. People were CURIOUS in the
1920's. Everything seemed interesting to them. The dialogue tries to
capture this curiosity and open mindedness."
Another point is that mystery and crime fiction dialogue of that era
preserves the speech of the lumpen proletariat. Hammett excelled at
this. Also of interest is "Sister of the Road" by Box Car Bertha
an "as told to" autobiography of the woman hobo (and filmed by
Scorsese) and "You Can't Win" another autobiography, by the petty
criminal and hobo Jack Black. If you haven't read these you should
because of the rich slang vocabulary these writers use
"Much of Elizabethan theater is in prose, not verse. Whole plays,
such as Thomas Dekker's "The Shoemaker's Holiday", are in prose.
I've read mountains of Elizabethan literature all my life. It
definitely reorients you. It is clear that Elizabethans actually
aspired to talk as well as their poets and playwrights. Obviously,
they could not have succeeded as well in conversation as
Shakespeare, but they apparently tried. Shakespeare was a brilliant
conversationalist (source: Ben Jonson), and his conversation and the
dialogue in his plays are probably much closer than one might
expect."
In these examples it's the speech of ruling class and middle class
that's preserved. The Noh theatre preserves the speech of the ruling
class and the Kabuki theatre of the middle class. Saikaku's novels
are addressed to the middle class,and the only examples of peasant
speech to survive are the sermons of the Jodo Shin Shu sect of
Buddhism (they were written by peasant preachers and saved by country
families down to the present.) The Japanese peasantry enjoyed a high
degree of literacy from about the 13th century onwards. Because of
this Japanese filmmmakers concerned with period authenticity like
Mizoguchi and Kurosawa were able to instruct their screenwriters to
recreate period dialogue by going to these sources.
"There are filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film, such
as John Ford, but even he brought in Broadway actors such as Spenser
Tracy to star in his pictures, rather than using his silent stars
such as George O'Brien."
Well, Ford did use O'Brien in SALUTE (1929,) but the real star of the
picture as far as dialogue goes is Stepin Fetchit who seems to be
improvising most of his lines and who delivers them in an off-hand
and understated manner. He did use Frank Albertson, another Broadway
actor, in several early pictures though.
Richard
12122
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:58am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > It's remarkable, but sad, how a thread starts to peter out and
dies
> > down into meaningless trivia just when it seemed it was going to
> > become interesting.
> >
> > Oh well, that's the nature of the medium I guess.
> >
> > JPC
>
> Far be it from me to let that happen. As the person who brought
this
> up, let me say that quite apart from the obvious distinctions
between
> language use in art and language use in life, philologists can do
> statistical and structural analysis of the enormous archives of all
> kinds that we possess going all the way back to Anglo-Saxon times
to
> determine simple things like whether Claudius would have said to
> Rosencrantz and Guildenstern "I need you to kill Hamlet for me" in
> life, on the stage, or anywhere else. And the fact that they can't
> know if how he would have pronounced Hamlet's name with any
> certainty, for example, is irrelevant to answering that simple
> question.
>
Yes of course, I completely agree. But the fact that philologists
can fairly easily establish that some late 20th century familiar
expression was not used in 1600 does not prove that they have any
real idea of how people spoke in 1600. I'm beginning to get a
feeling that no one knows what I'm talking about. And I really
believe that all the speech in movies taking place in the distant
past is just as anachronistic as "And I'm like, should I tell him
about us?" no matter how hard the director and writers worked on the
authenticity. It's always going to be modern speech even if you avoid
the most obvious anachronisms, because the feeling behind it is
modern. You can dress it up with "thy"s and "thou"s but it's only
window dressing.
>
JPC
12123
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:03am
Subject: Re: Jeannot Swzarc
My knee was going to jerk and make me say "but he's
the worst director who ever lived!" Then I thought of
more recent examples like Joel Schumacher, Emmerich,
Michael Bay, Guy Richie...
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12124
From: joey lindsey
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:16am
Subject: Re: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
jpcoursodon wrote:
> real idea of how people spoke in 1600. I'm beginning to get a
> feeling that no one knows what I'm talking about. And I really
> ...
> authenticity. It's always going to be modern speech even if you avoid
> the most obvious anachronisms, because the feeling behind it is
> modern.
I'm fairly sure I understand what you're saying, and I agree for the
most part - I just wonder what the point is. It was nicer when
directors really *tried* to provide a consistent period speech in
films. I started noticing blatantly sloppy anachronisms in the late 90s
(although there were surely many decades earlier in period films). When
I watch period films made in earlier eras, it seems that they put more
effort into the speech.
Perhaps this is because their anachronisms are no longer current speech
and thus it all sounds weird.
Did that make any sense?
Joey Lindsey
12125
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:28am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > It's remarkable, but sad, how a thread starts to peter out and
> dies
> > > down into meaningless trivia just when it seemed it was going
to
> > > become interesting.
> > >
> > > Oh well, that's the nature of the medium I guess.
> > >
> > > JPC
> >
> > Far be it from me to let that happen. As the person who brought
> this
> > up, let me say that quite apart from the obvious distinctions
> between
> > language use in art and language use in life, philologists can do
> > statistical and structural analysis of the enormous archives of
all
> > kinds that we possess going all the way back to Anglo-Saxon times
> to
> > determine simple things like whether Claudius would have said to
> > Rosencrantz and Guildenstern "I need you to kill Hamlet for me"
in
> > life, on the stage, or anywhere else. And the fact that they
can't
> > know if how he would have pronounced Hamlet's name with any
> > certainty, for example, is irrelevant to answering that simple
> > question.
> >
>
> Yes of course, I completely agree. But the fact that
philologists
> can fairly easily establish that some late 20th century familiar
> expression was not used in 1600 does not prove that they have any
> real idea of how people spoke in 1600. I'm beginning to get a
> feeling that no one knows what I'm talking about. And I really
> believe that all the speech in movies taking place in the distant
> past is just as anachronistic as "And I'm like, should I tell him
> about us?" no matter how hard the director and writers worked on
the
> authenticity.
Not AS anachronistic -- which is what I'm talking about. Of course
period films use modern English or French or whatever. But writers
and directors not knowing that you can't have obvious anachronisms of
speech is a new problem -- one that almost suggests that we're
regressing in the direction of the era before the Donation of
Constantine was proven to be a forgery because it contained
anachronistic language. A certain awareness of history was planted
and grew from that. It seems to be withering.
This is partly because we have a population where only half the
people read a book in the last year, per the NY Times. It's also
because we have all these audiovisual simulacra of the past, ranging
from good to awful, thrown into the big Mixmaster that is tv. And
according to some critics, the result of that is something called
postmodernism, where the past becomes a kind of theme park that
filmmakers like the Coens can clown around in to our heart's
content.It's not a word I even use, but it has been used by Joanathan
Rosenbaum, for example, to talk about this problem.
Whatever it is, there's been a shift. OR I'm just getting up in years
and noticing the anachronisms, because I can remember when a
particular expression didn't exist. That is also quite possible. Or
both. But your argument about the unknowability of this aspect of the
past is way too a priori for this conversation, and you know how I
feel about a priori argument.
For the sake of a posteriori argument, it seems to me that some
countries do what we're talking about better than others. Great
Britain is much better at getting the past, in all aspects, right
than we are, certainly on tv. Italian costume designers commit
relatively few mammoth gaffes; French costume designers commit
millions. Etc.
And it really doesn't matter in any ultimate (ie a priori) way. Maybe
it's our national destiny to have a theme park for our past, where
Arthur and Guinevere talk like characters from reality tv. Maybe
that's cool. My impression, however, is that it wasn't always thus.
Probably as Mike says writers have always tended to be more careful
about these things. I'm sure that Zane Grey and Louis L'Amour had
voluminous western libraries they referred to to get things right --
if not, some angry reader would have been all over them. And
obviously Hammett knew his contemprary slang better than Warner
Bros., or else Huston would never have gotten away with having Spade
call Wilbur a "gunsel" in The Maltese Falcon.
But let me insist again: studios at least had research libraries
then. The only studio that still has one is Dreamworks, because
Lillian Michelson, who mortgaged her insurance policy to buy up the
library she ran at the Goldwyn Company to keep it from being junked
and has moved all over Hollywood like the Flying Dutchwoman ever
since, is currently lodged there. But Katzenberg almost succeeded in
geting rid of her. His argument: "If we have to research something,
we can look it up on the internet!"
Coppola and Lucas bought two of the old libraries. Bronfman stripped
the Universal one and gave pieces of it to various institutions his
family finances -- that was the last one except for Lillian's, and
IMO that tells you something.
12126
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:45am
Subject: thanks
Mostly, I'd write private e-mail THANKS but I have a few to
post (for HORROR comments, DVD playing, e-mule), so
I'll add a general thanks to the board for references to movies
and books to keep on a 'to see/read' list.
I feel I am just completing my first round of cinema learning,
essentially getting exposure to the great variety of 'available'
films out there and learning some of the vocabulary. Your
name dropping of directors / titles keeps my net-flix queue
full.
Today I watched / read the script for MARATHON MAN and viewed
Lang's Die Nibelungen: Kriemhilds Rache and Eisenstein's Alexander
Nevsky. The battlefield scene where individual fallen soldiers call
out loved ones is rather moving... I've seen many war / battle scenes,
yet none like this; equally staged but less effective, yet powerful is
the tossing of children into the fires.
Films I've seen in theaters the past few days include
BEFORE SUNSET (or whatever the name of the more recent one is)
SPIDERMAN 2
THE MUDGE BOY
MOSTLY MARTHA
So a general thanks to all you who provide some guidance;
it sure is a lot of work enjoying the movies!
Elizabeth
12127
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:03am
Subject: My directors patheon (Was: Jeannot Swzarc)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Noel Vera
wrote:
> My knee was going to jerk and make me say "but he's
> the worst director who ever lived!" Then I thought of
> more recent examples like Joel Schumacher, Emmerich,
> Michael Bay, Guy Richie...
This is why I said I had a warm affection for Szwarc, but I would
not make a serious claim. I can think of worse directors than
Szwarc, I wouldn't deny that he can be very clumsy, but I think
there are some disreputable directors and films that are worth
defending.
There is a guy on the discussion board for Szwarc on the IMDB
--I think his is the only post-- who says Szwarc and Lester are the
worst. I figure he must have some type of grudge against the
Salkinds for focusing on these two directors.
Jack Angstreich and I both went to Purchase together, and Jack
was always amused that I could even bring up Szwarc after
talking about talking about great directors.
I do not know if people on this board have listed their "pantheon"
of directors, but if I raised a few eyebrows mentioning Szwarc,
here's my list. Please keep in my mind that the directors are
listed by importance and is subject to change.
George Melies
DW Griffitih
Charles Chaplin
Victor Sjostrom
FW Murnau
Eric Von Stronheim
Fritz Lang
Sergei Eisenstein
Buster Keaton
King Vidor
Carl Dryer
Abel Gance
Clarence Brown
GW Pabst
Joseph Von Sternberg
Alfred Hitchcock
Jean Vigo
Jean Renior
Jean Cocteau
Luis Buenel
Kenji Mizoguchi
Orson Welles
George Cukor
Vincente Minnelli
Douglas Sirk
Stanley Donen
Robert Wise
Richard Fleischer
Maya Deren
Max Ophuls
Jacques Tati
Jean Pierre Melville
Robert Bresson
Alan Resnais
Francois Truffaut
Jean Luc Godard
Shoei Imamura
Sergei Parajanov
Blake Edwards
Sergio Leone
John Frankenheimer
John Boorman
Ken Russell
Nicholas Roeg
Werner Herzog
Benardo Burtolucci
Nagisha Oshima
Chor Yuen
Robert Altman
Sam Peckinpah
Terrence Malick
Dario Argento
Tobe Hooper
John Carpenter
Martin Scorsece
David Cronenberg
Tsui Hark
Siu-Tung Ching
Peter Medak
Martha Coolidge
Chen Kaige
Kathryn Bigelow
Wong Kar-Wai
Peter Greenaway
Terence Davies
Paul Veroheven
Michael Haneke
12128
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:08am
Subject: Re: My directors patheon (important correction)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
Please keep in my mind that the directors are
> listed by importance and is subject to change.
Should be: "directors are NOT listed by importance"
Thanks,
Michael Worrall
12129
From: rpporton55
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:43am
Subject: Re: issue 19, scope
--- >
> I have always retained a little naïveté (okay -- a lot) in beleiving, des=
pi=
> te the
> overwhelming negativity from most of the critics I like, that there might=
b=
> e something
> in films like THE EDUKATORS.. or let me rephrase that just slightly: that=
e=
> very film is
> worth seeing, at least once. Mark's issue decries that, NO, THE MOTORCYCL=
E =
> DIARIES
> and THE EDUKATORS are not worth seeing, really, that Cannes are a bunch o=
f =
> pussies
> for showing them.
Since cinephiles share a kinship with collectors, we could say that ther=
e's a certain
satisfaction, even pleasure, to be derived from seeing films that we, or a=
t least some of
us, eventuallly dismiss as stinkers. It's all part of our internal archive=
. So, while I didn't
care much for the films you've mentioned, I don't regret having seen them. =
Richard P.
12130
From: Adam Hart
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:50am
Subject: Re: Translating titles
The most amusing French translations come with American teen movies.
They put either "sex" or "American" in the title whenever possible.
Varsity Blues is, I believe, American Boys. Bring It On is American
Girls. Not Another Teen Movie became Sex Academy. Just Married
became Just Married, No Sex. Some movie with Rachel Leigh Cook is
now Sex Trouble. Cruel Intentions is Sex Intentions. Animal House is
American College.
-adam
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Samuel Fuller's "Pickup on South Street" (one of his masterpieces)
> has just been released in DVD in France under the original French
> release title "LE PORT DE LA DROGUE" -- even though there are no
> drugs at all in the movie. When the film came out in France,
> everything in it relating to communist spies was changed to drug
> traffickers (not to offend the then powerful communist party). I
have
> never seen this French version, which must have required quite a
bit
> of tampering with the original. I'm curious to know whether the
DVD
> uses the original or the French version (neither is it clear from
the
> ad I've seen whether it's a dubbed or subtitled version). Maybe
> another Samuel (Brean)can clarify this!
>
> By the way the title "Lost in Translation" was not translated into
> French. Neither was "The Ladykillers" (the Coens' remake)-- they
just
> dropped the "The" as they often do these days ("The Shining"
> becoming "Shining"). other not translated recent American titles:
BIG
> FISH, OPEN RANGE, MONSTER... Sometimes the distributors come up
with
> a phony substitute English title: "School of Rock" became "Rock
> Academy" (the kids like anything sounding American).
>
> There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
> One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard
that
> Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave
robbers
> in the movie).
>
> JPC
12131
From: Adam Hart
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:01am
Subject: Re: issue 19, scope
Well, perhaps this is a little pat, but Raul Ruiz is fond of saying
that every film - good, bad or terrible - contains at least five
minutes of pure poetry.
not having read the new cinemascope yet, i should probably stop this
email right there, but want to add my two cents anyway - while I
agree that somebody needs to be defending HHH's films as forcefully
as it seems 'scope is, but any critic who insists on seeing the
cinema with that kind of art vs entertainment polemic is doing more
harm than good. those sorts of distinctions mean something only to
distributors and the people behind publicity campaigns.
-adam
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "rpporton55"
wrote:
> --- >
> > I have always retained a little naïveté (okay -- a lot) in
beleiving, des=
> pi=
> > te the
> > overwhelming negativity from most of the critics I like, that
there might=
> b=
> > e something
> > in films like THE EDUKATORS.. or let me rephrase that just
slightly: that=
> e=
> > very film is
> > worth seeing, at least once. Mark's issue decries that, NO, THE
MOTORCYCL=
> E =
> > DIARIES
> > and THE EDUKATORS are not worth seeing, really, that Cannes are
a bunch o=
> f =
> > pussies
> > for showing them.
>
> Since cinephiles share a kinship with collectors, we could say
that ther=
> e's a certain
> satisfaction, even pleasure, to be derived from seeing films that
we, or a=
> t least some of
> us, eventuallly dismiss as stinkers. It's all part of our
internal archive=
> . So, while I didn't
> care much for the films you've mentioned, I don't regret having
seen them. =
>
>
> Richard P.
12132
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:56am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in ...
I do understand (maybe) what JPC is saying: the way people talked in the past
is not just vocabulary. It also reflects the world views and mindsets of now
vanished eras, points of view that are today difficult to understand. I agree.
That is why, one needs actually to try to understand the IDEAS of different
eras. Ophuls and Ford excelled at this. Their characters "think differently"
from those of the present day.
Thanks to Richard Modiano for a fascinating post on American and Japanese
lower class literature. I will definitely check these out! I listen to tons of
genuine folk music from all over the world, but have read very few printed
documents from these groups. This sounds very interesting.
Lillian Michelson's library sounds fascinating! I would love to visit this
place. Bill Krohn's description of this is fascinating.
After my family, the most important thing in my life is my MSU library card.
I am what is known as a "Friend of the Michigan State University Library". For
35 dollars per year, I can take books out of the Library. This is the
greatest bargain in North America! I spend much of my weekends and vacation days in
the Library.
Researchers also regularly use Interlibrary Loan.
In my heart, I tend to think of MSU Library and its awesome surrounding
Botanical Garden as the Center of World Civilization. The Ancient Greeks thought of
the stone at the Oracle of Delphi, sacred to Pythian Apollo, as the "center
of the world". They called the stone there the "omphalos": the navel of the
world. I know the Library and Garden are the center: the "most fertile place" in
the world, the one where plants grow best, and ideas flourish.
Mike Grost
12133
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:20am
Subject: Re: Historicon (was contemporary language in ...
By the way, there is so much interest in historical mystery fiction, that
there is now a fan conference devoted to it. Historicon is a place where readers
and writers of historical mystery fiction can get together, meet each other,
and learn about the latest books. "Historicon II" was held in Boulder, Colorado
(a beautiful University town).
One tends to forget that mystery fiction is a whole parallel subculture,
within the world of modern life. We tend to get ignored by the outside world.
While only 38% of US men read fiction, according to the frightening recent NEA
poll, we mystery fans love reading. Many of us write our own mystery fiction,
too...
I am going on and on. But JPC complained about the thread drying up.
This poem from the Manyoshu is my model:
If the ever-flowing Asoka River would slow down,
stop flowing,
People would run
and see what was the matter.
Mike Grost
12134
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:59am
Subject: Question about dirty prints
Prints I've seen in New York's small art houses lately have been annoyingly dirty in a consistent way. It looks a little as if Scotch tape has been applied to a series of frames just before what appear to be the ends of reels. (Or are these splices?) Scratched prints are one thing, but I haven't been aware of this kind of outright defacement of the image until recently. Does anyone know what's going on here? I thought I'd bring it up because Jaime, in an eloquent post on FATHER AND SON, mentioned: "I'm going to see it again this week, before it disappears into oblivion or the print becomes too dirty." In fact I most recently encountered the problem at FATHER AND SON, which I did see on the next-to-last day of its (brief) run; but I'm not sure if this Scotch-tape-like business has anything to do with the length of a run...? (Too often I do see films at the end of the run, but we're talking about runs that are usually very short.)
12135
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:19pm
Subject: Re:(was contemporary language in old...
Hi. I'm new here.
Interesting debate. My contribution: it's not possible to really
mimic authentic speech in any period before audio recording was
invented. But we should aim for authentic-sounding speech.
Standards of authenticity will vary, of course.
Almost the first line of PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN is "Are you OK?"
Now, that probably sound sfine to a mall-rat, but to anyone more
sophisticated it's pretty lame and there are obviously superior
alternatives that could have been used. Especially since the writers
take the trouble to use some enjoyable piratical slang elsewhere. The
dialogue isn't consistently anachronistic OR consistently faux-
period, so bits ring hollow. More care could have fixed this. Sure
it's not a realistic film, but it IS trying to create a convincing
fantasy of history, so this matters, at least a little.
I seem to recall saying "What?" as a little kid though (going back 25
yrs or so) and getting told off for it, so I'm sure that reponse has
been around longer than some of you think.
12136
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> > Is (LA PRISONNIERE) at all available here?
>
> I know it has shown in American revival houses with English
subtitles.
> But I haven't seen it play anywhere for a long time. - Dan
Saw it at the Edinburgh Clouzot retrrospective. Badly pinked print.
But it's just been DVD'd in France. Can't find any info on whether
it's subbed (subtitled that is, not submissive).
Smashing film.
12137
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:32pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
>He had a huge hit in 1960
> with LA VERITE, a typical example of the so-called "French quality"
> the New Wave was denouncing.
Well, Truffaut was a big fan (LE CORBEAU is the first film cited in
his reviews book introduction) and encouraged Clouzot to work again
and make the film. And sinec the film stars Bardot that ties it to
Vadim and thence the New Wave itself.
For some members of the New Wave at least, Clouzot was a kind of
father figure like Melville. Chabrol is presumably also a fan, as he
filmed Clouzot's L'ENFER script, and Tavernier has attenpted a re-
examination of Clouzot's reputation as a collaboratot in his LAISSEZ
PASSER.
I'd also like to say, without being contentious, that LA VERITE is
far too much of a typical Clouzot to be a typical example of anything
else!
12138
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:42pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> >Also, I've always liked the little boy who says he just saw
> > [character not identified to avoid spoiling it for Mystery Mike]
> > again at the end. It's completely irrational, but somehow very
> > satisfying.
>
> That's the same gimmick he used at the end of LE CORBEAU. A
> totally arbitrary and gratuitous trick to leave the story open-
ended
> and confuse the viewer.
I'm totally baffled by this reference, having seen both films several
times. I can't think of any real connection between the endings. I'd
hesitate to say you're wrong or that I disagree, i just have no idea
what you're on about. Any connection I can think of is so vague as to
apply to every other thriller/mystery ever made!
But to sweeten this bitter pill of incomprehension, some trivia:
The children playing in the street in the last shot of LE CORBEAU
return in the first shot of WAGES OF FEAR - only here their game is
torturing insects. And the sprogs are then purloined wholesale for
Peckinpah's WILD BUNCH where they bookmark the opening massacre,
universalizing the theme of violence and establishing it as rooted in
human nature from infancy.
So even if we don't all like Clouzot (I love him) perhaps we can
agree that for a man who made so few films he had an astonishing
influence (three official remakes, countless rip-offs and homages)?
Jaime, I'd argue that what you find "ridiculous" in the Vanel-Montand
relationship in WAGES is in fact intentional humour from Clouzot. The
film got a lot of GOOD laughs when i saw it with an audience 9which
multiplied it's power by 1000%) - the theme of childishness again.
12139
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:46pm
Subject: Re: Chechik & "Diabolique" (Was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
> My biggest problem was the character of the detective. He seemed to
> know what was happening, why did he allow the death of one of the
> main characters? That point wasn't at all clear for me.
I sort of agree - it's unmotivated in character terms, just a way to
wind up the plot. The Columbo-style detective is as much an empty
plot function as the "villain" in the same authors' VERTIGO.
But I don't mind that.
I guess in a vicious way, the detective could be dispensing "justic"
by letting Vera die - she was, after all, a conspirator to murder.
That would fit in with HG's "moral" world-view quite well.
12140
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:52pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
> Jaime, I'd argue that what you find "ridiculous" in the Vanel-Montand
> relationship in WAGES is in fact intentional humour from Clouzot. The
> film got a lot of GOOD laughs when i saw it with an audience 9which
> multiplied it's power by 1000%) - the theme of childishness again.
Hi David, welcome to the list!
That wasn't me, I was the one who wasn't head-over-heels in love with
WAGES or SORCERER but granted that the Clouzot at least trumped the
remake in the area of Montand-gazing. Unless one prefers
Schreider-gazing.
> Almost the first line of PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN is "Are you OK?"
> Now, that probably sound sfine to a mall-rat, but to anyone more
> sophisticated it's pretty lame and there are obviously superior
> alternatives that could have been used.
Of course, we're talking about a movie that was "adapted" from a
theme-park ride.
One must presume that the "aarh!" in THE RETURN OF PEG LEG PETE (a
film by David Cairns) seems quite authentic!
-Jaime
12141
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:18pm
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
But your argument about the unknowability of this aspect of the
> past is way too a priori for this conversation, and you know how I
> feel about a priori argument.
>
Why do you call "a priori argument" something you just don't agree
with? To me my point was so obvious that I didn't even think it had
to be made until this discussion. But if the discussion is limited to
obvious anachronisms in speech, we obviously are in agreement that
they can and should be avoided.
I haven't made a study of speech in old period movies versus
speech in recent period movies so I'm quite willing to accept your
observation that anachronisms (of the "obvious" kind) are more
frequent now than then. It makes sense and so do the causes you
suggest for such a state of affairs.
I also agree that there are degrees of anachronisms in speech --
some more blatant, some less (and I would add, some -- perhaps most --
barely perceptible). But I do feel that the recreation of speech of
the past is doomed to be conventional and artificial -- and, yes,
fundamentally anachronistic even if the anachronisms are not blatant.
At any rate period pieces in film (and theatre and fiction too)
reflect the time when they were made as much as or more than the time
they represent. This applies to speech as well as to physical
components (actors' looks and acting styles, costumes, decoration...)
And of course plays by Shakespeare or Racine based on Roman or
Greek history are openly and gloriously anachronistic (even if they
adhere to historical truth, which they rarely do)because the
playrights thought and felt and expressed thoughts and feelings with
the sensibility of their time.
12142
From: Dave Kehr
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:56pm
Subject: Re: Scorsese's prints
There's nothing minature about it. It's huge and very well
organized by his staff. He's been able to have studios make prints
for him in addition to his vintage material, and he has a gigantic
collection of tapes he's in the process of transerfing to DVD. It's
not too much to say that without Scorsese the New York film scene
would be very much impoverished, particularly now that no museum has
the money to ship prints in from the studios.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Doug Cummings wrote:
> >Like most retrospectives in NYC these days, this one will depend
on
> >what prints Scorsese has in his collection and is willing to lend.
>
> This is such an odd fact. I recall that the longer cut of "Andrei
> Rublev" (as seen on the Criterion DVD and Kino's recent
> retrospective) was procured from Scorsese as well. Does the guy
> really have a miniature cinematheque?
>
> Doug
12143
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Scorsese's prints
Dave Kehr wrote:
>.... It's not too much to say that without Scorsese the New York film scene would be very much impoverished.....
>
Not just New York. A couple of years ago the Block Museum at
Northwestern University in Evanston celebrated their newly opened film
theater with a Nicholas Ray series, and they got different critics,
including Jonathan and myself, to select a film to introduce. I selected
"Wind Across the Everglades," but they couldn't find a print, and kept
telling me it was totally unavailable. Through Scorsese's archivist (or
one of them?), Mark McElhatten, I asked to borrow his, and was surprised
and grateful for his generosity when he agreed.. Aside from the pleasure
of being able to show it in 35mm, I had the somewhat smaller but not
insignificant pleasure of impressing the folks at Northwestern with my
high-class contacts. Because that show is on my site, every year or so
someone emails me trying to find the film on video, since it's
apparently unavailable.
- Fred C.
12144
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:29pm
Subject: Pirates of the Caribbean
But where did the theme park ride Pirates of the Caribbean
come from ...
> Of course, we're talking about a movie that was "adapted" from a
> theme-park ride.
> -Jaime
12145
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
>>He had a huge hit in 1960
>>with LA VERITE, a typical example of the so-called "French quality"
>>the New Wave was denouncing.
>
> Well, Truffaut was a big fan (LE CORBEAU is the first film cited in
> his reviews book introduction) and encouraged Clouzot to work again
> and make the film.
I think it's too strong a statement to say that Truffaut was a fan of
Clouzot. You can certainly find support for that position: Truffaut
often talked about his childhood obsession with LE CORBEAU, and called
it a masterpiece in later years; he included a nice contemporary review
of LE MYSTERE PICASSO in LES FILMS DE MA VIE, and there's a late letter
where he says he adores Clouzot's films. On the other hand, he
explicitly lumped Clouzot with the "tradition of quality" when he made
categories for 89 French directors in 1955; he wrote a notoriously
negative article on Clouzot in 1957; and, even in LES FILMS DE MA VIE, a
book that he edited to remove as much negativity as possible, you can
find at least four passages that lump Clouzot together with other
"tradition of quality" directors in a negative sense. In the famous
"Certain Tendency" article, LE SALAIRE DE LA PEUR is criticized (for its
homosexual relationships); a decade later, he wrote Clouzot saying that
he admired the film enormously. I guess we're talking about
ambivalence. - Dan
12146
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:40pm
Subject: How Old-Timey People Talked / regionalisms
Add to the difficulty of old-time talking, the dimension of
regionalisms. I think an interesting exercise would be to
take a simple 15 minute short and have it done in
Boston
New York
Jersey City
Pittsburgh
Washington
Durham
Atlanta
Miami
Knoxville
Chicago
Austin
You see what I am getting at... major cities in different regions
of the United States. You could add small towns also.
(Let's not be concerned about accents, nor age and social
class differences.)
If the exact same dialogue lines were used, I think each region
would sound unnatural. It would be necessary to have the
template for the intended meaning, each translated to the
vernacular of each region.
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:56:20 EDT
> From: MG4273@a...
> Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in
> ...
>
> I do understand (maybe) what JPC is saying: the way people talked in
> the past
> is not just vocabulary. It also reflects the world views and mindsets
> of now
> vanished eras, points of view that are today difficult to understand.
> I agree.
> That is why, one needs actually to try to understand the IDEAS of
> different
> eras. Ophuls and Ford excelled at this. Their characters "think
> differently"
> from those of the present day.
12147
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:51pm
Subject: Is that your final answer?
I was watching Polonsky's FORCE of EVIL a few years
back and there is a scene where Garfield is asking
Gomez to work with him in the rackets; Gomez
is reluctant...
Garfield (forcefully): Is that your answer?
Is that your final answer?
If that movie were re-made today, people
would readily associate it with Regis Philbin's
MILLIONAIRE question.
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:16:24 -0000
> From: "hotlove666"
> Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in
> old...
>
> I believe Hollywood movies used to pay more attention to avoiding
> glaring, verifiable anachronisms of this kind -- my example
> was "What" as a way of getting someone to talk, which is no older
> than 10 years, to my ear -- than they do today.
12148
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:59pm
Subject: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
I know there were 'problems' for silent actors who could not
make the 'talking' transition in the talkies.
I also know that some of the great silent directors made just
one or two talking films.
Who were the silent directors who made the transition to
talkies? You mention FORD. Were there others? We they able
to incorporate talking dialogue as one of many aspects of a
film or were they forced to employ it as a crutch.
I just now reflected that all those posts about "how people
talk" is somewhat out of place reference cinema!
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:50:15 EDT
> From: MG4273@a...
> Subject: Re: How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in
> ...
>
> 4) In "Singin in the Rain", the studio head says something like "Making
> talking pictures is easy. You just take silent pictures, and add
> people talking.
> Right?" I believe that that is exactly what did NOT happen - perhaps
> unfortunately. Instead, I think than much of Hollywood completely
> scrapped silent film
> technique, and instead modeled films on Broadway plays. 1930's films
> often seem
> much closer in every way to 1920's theater, than they do to 1920's
> silent
> films. There are filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film,
> such as John
> Ford, but even he brought in Broadway actors such as Spenser Tracy to
> star in
> his pictures, rather than using his silent stars such as George
> O'Brien.
> It is eerie to look at casts of old Broadway plays. Many of the people
> we
> think of as "film stars" really started out as Broadway actors. It was
> hard to
> make it in 1930's-1950's Hollywood without being a Broadway star first.
>
> More later on this whole subject.
>
> Mike Grost
12149
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jancso / Scorsese / Parker
Just for the record, EVITA literally means "avoid" in portuguese. I did.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: Jancso / Scorsese / Parker
It's crazy, but when he dies, the Queen plans to canonize Sir Alan and
make him a saint. A statue of Saint Alan Parker will then replace
Admiral Nelson atop Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square, London (to be
renamed Parker's Column) and screenings of EVITA shall no doubt blare
non-stop from flat-screen monitors at local cafes.
-Nick Wrigley>-
12150
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Pirates of the Caribbean
--- Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> But where did the theme park ride Pirates of the
> Caribbean
> come from ...
>
The Collective Disneyfied Unconscious.
And a few Raoul Walsh movies.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12151
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:13pm
Subject: Re: eMule (was Re: translating titles
Hi, Sam
in this page (http://www.edonkey.com/download_ed2k.php) there's a link to
download eDonkey for Mac OS X. Don't know if it works and haven't heard/read
comments about it.
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Adams"
To:
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 4:41 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] eMule (was Re: translating titles
Well, I'll bite, since your mentions have piqued my interest -- do you (or
anyone else) know if there's a good (i.e.) workable eMule client for the
Macintosh? I've tried to find one through google, but I keep getting
French-language help pages since "émule" seems to be a pretty common verb in
French computerese.
I'll lay down a tip of my own, which I meant to post to Elizabeth last week:
you can circumvent the Mac's region coding by downloading any DVD playing
application (I use VLC) and setting the Apple DVD Player's preferences so it
doesn't automatically launch when you insert a disc. You're region-free for
all intents and purpose after that.
Sam
Ruy wrote:
for users of E-mule, just type "Their First Films" in the Video Global
search and voilà. Very few users to download it from, though.
You gotta love the koreans... they encode nearly everything that gets
released there. If the french were like them, I would already have some
Yahoo! Groups Links
12152
From: Nick
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:50pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
> Who were the silent directors who made the transition to
> talkies? You mention FORD. Were there others? We they able
> to incorporate talking dialogue as one of many aspects of a
> film or were they forced to employ it as a crutch.
Lubitsch came from the silent era (in Germany) and not only became the
toast of Hollywood but had an ear for some of the finest dialogue in
talkies that we'll ever hear (or maybe I should say "an ear for
scriptwriters such as Ben Hecht, Billy Wilder, etc" - even though
Lubitsch worked uncredited on the scripts of many of his films.)
There are many directors who straddled silents and talkies (including
personal favourites such as Dreyer, Ozu, and Mizoguchi) and I think
*lots* of them dealt with dialogue much better than it's dealt with
today in the majority of films. They understood the power of silent
cinema and the need for cinema to become more than just filmed theatre.
I'd love to hear of everybody's favourite "straddlers" of silent and
talkies...
-Nick Wrigley>-
12153
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:08pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
wrote:
> Who were the silent directors who made the transition to
> talkies? You mention FORD. Were there others?
Some of these directors are in my paNtheon (I am a bit
embarrassed on my typo in my past post.)
Fritz Lang
Sergei Eisenstein
King Vidor
Raoul Walsh
Alfred Hitchcock
GW Pabst
Clarence Brown
Charles Chaplin
Frank Borzage
Frank Capra
Rene Clair
Jean Renoir
Yasujiro Ozu
…to name a few
I've always wondered if Murnau being cut short from making
sound films was tragedy or fate.
Michael Worrall
12154
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:17pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
--- Nick wrote:
>
> I'd love to hear of everybody's favourite
> "straddlers" of silent and
> talkies...
>
Mamoulian's "Applause" is essentiala silent film that
breaks the sound barrier.
I've always found silent Laurel and Hardy fascinating
because, thanks to the sound films you can always
"hear" them -- especially in "Big Business."
And then there's "Playtime" which was shot silent,
then Tati spent over a year's time creating every
single sound in it. Blinkered critics refer to it as
if it were a silent film -- but it's almost nothing
but sound.
Likewise Marguerite Duras spent the better part of her
career shooting silent films ("India Song," "Son Nom
du Venise dans Calcutta Desert," "Le Navire Night,"
"Aurelia Steiner," "Agathe" ) for which she;d create
sounds to overwhelm and I'd even go so far as to say
devour the images.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12155
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:39pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> Mamoulian's "Applause" is essentiala silent film that
> breaks the sound barrier.
There's also King Vidor's "Hallelujah "(1929) , which takes
sound recording on location-- though some of it is post-synched
/dubbed.
Count also Dreyer's --who I misspelled on my list-- "Vampyr" and
Vertov's "Enthusiasm"
Both Vigo's 'L'Atalante" and Fritz Lang's "M" are two of the
greatest sound films in my opinion.
Michael Worrall
12156
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Clouzot (was: Friedkin's "Sorcerer")
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> LE SALAIRE DE LA PEUR is criticized (for its
> homosexual relationships); a decade later, he wrote Clouzot saying
that
> he admired the film enormously. I guess we're talking about
> ambivalence. - Dan
Truffaut had a way of putting down a director or writer in an
article then later of writing to him that he didn't really mean it.
He did it with Aurenche and Bost, telling one (can't remember which)
that it was really the other he had criticized. JPC
12157
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:25pm
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> But your argument about the unknowability of this aspect of the
> > past is way too a priori for this conversation, and you know how
I
> > feel about a priori argument.
> >
>
> Why do you call "a priori argument" something you just don't
agree
> with? To me my point was so obvious that I didn't even think it had
> to be made until this discussion. But if the discussion is limited
to
> obvious anachronisms in speech, we obviously are in agreement that
> they can and should be avoided.
>
> I haven't made a study of speech in old period movies versus
> speech in recent period movies so I'm quite willing to accept your
> observation that anachronisms (of the "obvious" kind) are more
> frequent now than then. It makes sense and so do the causes you
> suggest for such a state of affairs.
>
> I also agree that there are degrees of anachronisms in speech --
> some more blatant, some less (and I would add, some -- perhaps
most --
> barely perceptible). But I do feel that the recreation of speech
of
> the past is doomed to be conventional and artificial -- and, yes,
> fundamentally anachronistic even if the anachronisms are not
blatant.
>
> At any rate period pieces in film (and theatre and fiction too)
> reflect the time when they were made as much as or more than the
time
> they represent. This applies to speech as well as to physical
> components (actors' looks and acting styles, costumes,
decoration...)
>
> And of course plays by Shakespeare or Racine based on Roman or
> Greek history are openly and gloriously anachronistic (even if they
> adhere to historical truth, which they rarely do)because the
> playrights thought and felt and expressed thoughts and feelings
with
> the sensibility of their time.
We totally agree on everything -- except your definition of my
definition of a priori.
12158
From: Michael Worrall
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Question about dirty prints
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
> Prints I've seen in New York's small art houses lately have
been annoyingly dirty in a consistent way. It looks a little as if
Scotch tape has been applied to a series of frames just before
what appear to be the ends of reels. (Or are these splices?)
Scratched prints are one thing, but I haven't been aware of this
kind of outright defacement of the image until recently. Does
anyone know what's going on here?
It sounds like these prints may have been assembled and
loaded for platter projection. The end of a reel is spliced to the
beginning, and if a projectionist is not careful --or even cares-- a
few frames get snipped away. It's a projection method that I am
not very fond of, but it's the way of the multi-plex and many "art"
houses: with all the films built up on large reels there is less
need for qualified projectionists which translates into less
overhead.
Michael Worrall
12159
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:33pm
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in ...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I do understand (maybe) what JPC is saying: the way people talked
in the past
> is not just vocabulary. It also reflects the world views and
mindsets of now
> vanished eras, points of view that are today difficult to
understand. I agree.
> That is why, one needs actually to try to understand the IDEAS of
different
> eras. Ophuls and Ford excelled at this. Their characters "think
differently"
> from those of the present day.
Terribly important, hard to do, but certainly not impossible. There's
just too much material available if someone takes the trouble to look
at it. Unless we posit the past as noumenal.
> I am what is known as a "Friend of the Michigan State University
Library". For
> 35 dollars per year, I can take books out of the Library. This is
the
> greatest bargain in North America! I spend much of my weekends and
vacation days in
> the Library.
> Researchers also regularly use Interlibrary Loan.
I'm a Friend of the UCLA Library -- 80 bucks every 6 months, and what
a bargain it is. They have more books than Yale's library. Let me add
that the LA Public Library system is brilliant, and also does
interlibrary loans. That's how I got the French book Bunuel based
Land Without Bread on from Berkeley (it had been stolen from UCLA),
and that's how I got a cassette of La hija del engano, a very rare
Bunuel Mexican film, from a small college library in Maine.
I could fill a book with hymns in praise of libraries. My mother
helped build up the one in our small town, and when I was back on a
visit in the 80s I just happened to look for a book I was in the
habit of looking for everywhere I went, Hake Talbot's The Hangman's
Handyman. They had it! It had been there in my home-town library all
along! And they gave it to me happily -- no one had ever checked it
out.
12160
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:42pm
Subject: Re:(was contemporary language in old...
> I seem to recall saying "What?" as a little kid though (going back
25
> yrs or so) and getting told off for it, so I'm sure that reponse
has
> been around longer than some of you think.
Were you saying "What?" because you didn't understand someone? That
is rude -- you should say, "Excuse me?" But I can't believe you were
saying "What?" 25 years ago because someone was biting his lip,
indicating he could speak volumes if..., or looked unhappy but didn't
want to... and so on. I will stand grudgingly corrected if it was the
latter.
Pirates of the Carribean is a great example of inventing a believable
past. Johnny Depp's brilliant performance is a living anachronism --
he modelled it on his good friend Keith Richards -- but you can
easily believe that there might have been a real pirate like that
because he's NOT imitating pirate film cliches. (And because, as far
as I can remember, he didn't slip into using Keith Richards'
vocabulary.) Whereas Geoffrey Rush's imitation of Hannibal Lecter
(lingering "sensuously" on syllables) is pathetic and jarring.
12161
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:26pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
"Thunderbolt" (Sternberg, 1929) is a great early sound film. It is as if
everyone in it had discovered speech for the first time. One suspects that
Sternberg carefully coached everyone on exactly how they should talk.
Mike Grost
12162
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:17pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Worrall"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan
> wrote:
>
> > Who were the silent directors who made the transition to
> > talkies? You mention FORD. Were there others?
>
>
> Some of these directors are in my paNtheon (I am a bit
> embarrassed on my typo in my past post.)
>
> Fritz Lang
> Sergei Eisenstein
> King Vidor
> Raoul Walsh
> Alfred Hitchcock
> GW Pabst
> Clarence Brown
> Charles Chaplin
> Frank Borzage
> Frank Capra
> Rene Clair
> Jean Renoir
> Yasujiro Ozu
>
> …to name a few
>
> I've always wondered if Murnau being cut short from making
> sound films was tragedy or fate.
>
> Michael Worrall
With few exceptions (Griffith, Stroheim) most of the major Hollywood
directors did make the transition, and most made their major
masterpieces in the sound era. Griffith ran into bad luck but "The
Struggle" proves that he could have adapted, and there is no evidence
that Stroheim's "Walking Down Broadway" was as bad as the Fox people
claimed so it was probably bad luck/bad timing too for him.
12163
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:38pm
Subject: Thunderbolt (WAS: filmmakers with greater)
Mike, thanx for mentioning Thunderbolt, my favorite Von Sternberg. But I
think part of what makes it such a great film is that it seems as if everyone,
including Von Sternberg himself, was discovering not just speech but sound itself
for the first time (which, in a way, I suppose they were). Why is this film
still so difficult to see? Is there something culturally embarrassing about its
sonic orgy? Is it too much of a challenge to traditional film history? Or is
just paramount's indiffernce? All three?
And Mike, thanx also for your informative Broadway article.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
12164
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:35am
Subject: Re:How Old-Timey People Talked (was contemporary language in ...
> After my family, the most important thing in my life is my MSU library card.
> I am what is known as a "Friend of the Michigan State University Library". For
> 35 dollars per year, I can take books out of the Library. This is the
> greatest bargain in North America!
It must be, geez Princeton Univ. Firestone Library wants $30 month just
to let you walk in the door, borrowing priviledges are just under a thousand
per year....
sorry OT rant, back to That Old Time Patter....
-Sam
12165
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:40am
Subject: Re: Question about dirty prints
Well contemporary prints are often tape spliced (and it is essentially Scotch tape
- if no longer 3M brand - ) because the print stock is mostly polyester now, but
if done right it shouldn't be too easy to see & actually you should not loose
frames as you would with a so-called cement splice..
-Sam
12166
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:54am
Subject: Re: Early Anthony Mann
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> >.... "Strangers in the Night" (which has quite a
> >few visual ideas),....
> >
> Do you (or does anyone) remember if this is the film in which there's
> something odd with a portrait on the wall -- perhaps a cut f rom the
> portrait to a point of view shot as if from the point of view of the
> person in the portrait? If I remember this right, it's one of those
> great, Ulmer-like moment that are sprinkled through low budget films of
> the 40s and 50s.
I don't know that one, but in STRANGE IMPERSONATION (it's on DVD), a film that sometimes seems all about framings and reframings, there's a shot of a reconstructive surgeon's diagram of Brenda Marshall's new face; the camera dollies back from this "portrait" to include the patient herself, in profile, examining her face in a hand mirror, which she revolves so as to reveal her face to us gradually -- so we then have two simultaneous images of her face, the "portrait" at right and the now-intact mirror image at left, but we still haven't seen her face directly. Then, in another reframing (it's still the same shot), the camera dollies around her so that we can finally see her full face, a camera movement that causes the image in the mirror to begin to glide out of view again -- removed this time by the camera's power, although it was revealed by the heroine's hand. Can't begin to explain why such an offhand bit of plastic inspiration (appropriate, I guess, to a melodrama about plastic surgery) should seem so compelling, even cinema-defining. Though at least, on video, one can always watch it again.
I've only re-viewed the film to this point; will advise if there's more portrait stuff to come.
12167
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:59am
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
> I've always wondered if Murnau being cut short from making
> sound films was tragedy or fate.
Do you have any doubt he would have done some great Film noir ?
(considering what his contemporaries did...)
I don't think I do..
-Sam
12168
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:29am
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"'Thunderbolt' (Sternberg, 1929) is a great early sound film. It is
as if everyone in it had discovered speech for the first time. One
suspects that Sternberg carefully coached everyone on exactly how
they should talk."
I think you're right about Sternberg coaching the actors on how they
should talk, Mike. I recall an interview with Clive Brook who said
that on SHANGHAI EXPRESS Sternberg told him to pace his dialogue to
match the motion of the train. Sternberg began and ended his sound
career as a great innovater; ANATAHAN (1952) is one of the best sound
films of all time.
Richard
12169
From: j_biel
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:33am
Subject: Re: Buñuel's book
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> The recent talk of a potentially more complete version of the
Hitch-Truffaut
> book got me also thinking about Bu�uel's splendid MY LAST
SIGH/BREATH: I've
> read (I think in a piece by Jonathan) that the English version, now
> reprinted a few times, is only about two thirds of the French (I
think
> French) original.
This is a veritable plague and I suspect plenty of books are secretly
being defaced tbis way. I noticed the differences in Bunuel's
autobiography in 1988 when my mother came for a visit and we decided
to read it - she read in it in French.
An example of a sentence surgically removed from the English verion:
"I hate blind people".
Would someone please explain to me why this was excised?
Another instance was Bunuel recalling a postcard he received once from
Andrzej Wajda in Poland. Wajda signed it: "votre disciple".
Another example of the same kind are Leni Riefenstahl's memoirs (ISBN
0312119267). On a whim I checked the German original "Memoiren" from
the library and... well, it's a total disaster. Same thing. I prepared
a small sample here:
http://www.mastersofcinema.org/jan/mem.html
I wrote about these atrocities to both J. Rosenbaum and R. Ebert.
Ebert was a bit puzzled by my annoyance since he thought Riefenstahl
must have certainly agreed to these changes herself. Which is
precisely NOT the point. Tarkovsky also agreed to the cuts in
"Rublov". Wajda also agreed to the cuts in "Man of Marble".
It wouldn't be half as bad if publishers in the US had the decency to
put - even in microscopic print - a disclaimer along the lines of
"Portions of the original have been altered for this edition" or some
such.
Jan Bielawski
Mastersofcinema.org
12170
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:47am
Subject: Re: Re: My directors patheon (was: Jeannot Swzarc)
Goodm comprehensive and nicely eclectic list, Michael.
May I submit a few more names for your consideration:
Larry Cohen
Ritwik Ghatak
Mario O'Hara
Lino Brocka
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12171
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:00pm
Subject: Re: Thunderbolt (filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film)
Have no idea why Thunderbolt (Sternberg, 1929) is so difficult to see. I last
saw it in 1972 at the college film society. It made an overwhelmimg
impression at the time.
Many really early talkies are rarely shown. Guess: film distributors have
some fixed idea that films from 1929-1932 are not really "commercial". This is
just wild speculation. I have never had a chance to see any Fejos. Or Roland
West's "Corsair" (1931). Or lots of early musicals.
There is nothing "controversial" about Thunderbolt from a critical point of
view - auteurists all seem to love it. It is praised by Sarris, Jonathan
Rosenbaum has it on his list of top 100 American films, people on this list seem to
love it. It is a genuinely "different" film, with its unique sound, but this
would hardly be a barrier for audiences.
It is a very involving film too. Still remember how caught up I was by the
whole second half of the film. Sternberg has the power to sweep you up into his
story arcs, which have something of the logic and movement of great music.
"The Last Command" can do this too. They are like being on a wild ride on the
winds...
Mike Grost
12172
From:
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:24pm
Subject: Libraries (OT)
MSU Library lets anyone walk in the door, and use the materials, for free.
This includes the 500, 000 items in Special Collections (the rare book room),
including the 150, 000 comic books, the American cookbook collection, the vast
gay & lesbian archive, the American Radicalism collection, the Changing Men
Collections (men's movement), the Veternary Science collection, etc, all of which
are world famous. They also have some film scripts, but I've never examined
these.
None of the rare books circulate. You have to examine them in the library.
To check out regular books out, you need a card, and that is $35 per year.
The latest Friends of the MSU Library newsletter has an editorial from the
Library director, celebrating the increased traffic in the library. They want as
many visitors as possible. The library is a beehive of activity, to coin a
phrase.
Mike Grost
PS When I attended a computer conference at UCLA, got a chance to see the
UCLA Library. It is awesome to the max!
12173
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:34am
Subject: Re: Libraries (OT)
MG4273@a... wrote:
>PS When I attended a computer conference at UCLA, got a chance to see the
>UCLA Library. It is awesome to the max!
>
>
And at least as of 1996 it didn't require a fee to use; that's when I
used it.
Mike, what are the "150,000 comic books" -- how complete is this? Would
they have, for example, most of EC? And this is in Lansing, not Ann Arbor?
- Fred C.
12174
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:50am
Subject: Help identify some old BRITISH movie photos
Came across this request in readings:
http://www.britmovie.co.uk/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;
f=2;t=000164;p=0
http://www.ofoto.co.uk/BrowsePhotos.jsp?
&collid=75252356633&page=1&sort_order=0
12175
From:
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:35am
Subject: Re: MSU & Comic Books (was Libraries) (OT)
Some further information:
Michigan State University (MSU) and its comics web site:
http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/
The Comic Art Collection at MSU has 150,000 comic books. These are in three
forms:
Real comic books
Microfiche of comic books (color reproductions)
Microfilms of comic books (black and white microfilm)
This is in descending order of quality.
MSU has almost no original comic book art, or scripts, or other "inside"
material on comics. It has lots and lots of the finished product. These are for
reading - MSU wants to have a place where people can READ comics. It encourages
every sort of reader, from little kids getting caught up on back issues of
Spiderman, to scholars writing books on comics. All are genuinely welcome. The
comic books do NOT circulate - one must go to East Lansing to read them.
MSU collects comic books of all kinds - superhero, humorous, funny animal,
mystery, science fiction, Western, adult, underground, political, non-fiction.
It has a very large collection of European comic books, and is trying to build
up its collection of Latin American and Asian, as well. It is eager for
donations of comic books.
There are also extensive scrapbooks of comic STRIPS - such old series as
Alley Oop, Radio Patrol, etc.
MSU also has a vast collection of comic book criticism.
Both the comic books and the criticism are indexed in a special web site:
http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/rri/index.htm
This index is a great resource on comic books, in and of itself.
This page also has a link to the Grand Comic-Book Database (GCD), which is
the rough comic book equivalent of the IMDB. An invaluable web site!
I know almost nothing about EC comic books. This 1950's publisher put out the
original MAD. But it is best known for its gruesome horror comic books. These
were at the center of the 1950's controversy over comic books, leading to the
Senate investigation over comics that nearly destroyed the US comic book
industry. And Fritz Lang's condemnation of comic books in "While the City Sleeps"
(1956). And the birth of comic book censorship in 1955. Here is a link to the
section of the MSU web site that indexes EC material:
http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/rri/erri/e.htm
You will have to scroll down to reach EC.
I know almost nothing about horror comics (or horror films). My interests as
a reader are science fiction, superhero and mystery comics, with an occasional
Western thrown in. This sounds a lot like my movie interests (coincidence? -
I think NOT!)
Michigan State University (MSU) is mainly located in East Lansing, Michigan.
East Lansing is contiguous with Lansing, the capital of Michigan. MSU has
around 45, 000 students.
MSU is completely different from the other largest university in the state,
the University of Michigan (U of M), which is mainly in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
The two schools are arch-rivals, and the yearly football game between MSU (the
green-and-white Spartans) and U of M (the maize-and-blue Wolverines) is a huge
grudge match, one that engulfs the many alumni in the state of both schools.
The MSU logo is a green S for "Spartans"; one can see it on the green MSU
baseball cap always worn by Michael Moore, for example. U of M's logo is a blue M.
When the Canadian rock group "The Bare-Naked Ladies" played at MSU in East
Lansing, they got a huge laugh with their comment:
"Life in East Lansing has gotten much better since since they tore down the
Berlin Wall separating it from West Lansing."
Actually, there is no "West Lansing". Just Lansing and East Lansing.
Hope this helps some!
Mike Grost
author of:
Classic Comic Books
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/comics.htm
12176
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:54pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
> That wasn't me, I was the one who wasn't head-over-heels in love
with
> WAGES or SORCERER but granted that the Clouzot at least trumped the
> remake in the area of Montand-gazing. Unless one prefers
> Schreider-gazing.
Ah, lovely leathery Roy.
> One must presume that the "aarh!" in THE RETURN OF PEG LEG PETE (a
> film by David Cairns) seems quite authentic!
you saw it! Cool.
The research that went into those monosyllables was exhaustive.
Hadn't actually occurred to me that WAGES was homoerotic, though off
course it is. Although I can't see how even a homosexualist would
through Vera Clouzot over for Charles Vanel, even if he does have a
nice white suit.
12177
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:02pm
Subject: Re: filmmakers with greater continuity with silent film
> I'd love to hear of everybody's favourite "straddlers" of silent
and
> talkies...
Some filmmakers who'd been successful enough in silents reached new
heights when handed sound: Wyler and Hawks would be two of my
nominees there.
Lubitsch certainly ranks high: silents taught him how to establish
plot and character points through indirection, and he applied the
same rules to dialogue, using it to suggest rather than explicitly
hammer home what he wanted to say.
Hitchcock, arguably, continued making films that told their stories
visually, using sound purely to enhance.
And Sternberg also puts the sound, dialogue and music at the service
of a richly visual experience - still one of the most interesting
deployers of the soundtrack. He always had an interest in the RHYTHM
of a film, and sound added another string to his bow.
12178
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:12pm
Subject: Re:(was contemporary language in old...
> Were you saying "What?" because you didn't understand someone? That
> is rude -- you should say, "Excuse me?" But I can't believe you
were
> saying "What?" 25 years ago because someone was biting his lip,
> indicating he could speak volumes if..., or looked unhappy but
didn't
> want to... and so on. I will stand grudgingly corrected if it was
the
> latter.
I'm trying to recall...It's clearly a contraction of "What is it?"
and so there doesn't seem any reason why it COULDN'T have been used.
It seems to me it's always been there, but that could be erronious.
One of the things about is it sounds pleasing and comedic with a
Scottish accent - one drops the T.
> Pirates of the Carribean is a great example of inventing a
believable
> past.
I just cited it elsewhere as being flawed - almost the first line of
the film is "Are you OK?" which surely SOMEBODY should have suggested
changing to a slightly less jarring "Are you alright?"
Geoffrey Rush seems to me to be in the tradition of Robert Newton's
eye-rolling, "Ah-harr!"-shouting piratical performances, and so quite
in keeping with genre convention. If it strikes you as anachromistic
it's perhaps because you're associating it with Hopkins, another
scenery-chewer who probably was influenced by Newton in his early
youth.
Generally I never find PERFORMANCES themselves anachronistic - as
Malkovich said of his turn in DANGEROUS LIAISONS, "I don't see how
you can say people weren't like this unless you were alive at the
time and knew everybody in the world."
12179
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:24pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
> Hadn't actually occurred to me that WAGES was homoerotic, though
off
> course it is. Although I can't see how even a homosexualist would
> through Vera Clouzot over for Charles Vanel, even if he does have a
> nice white suit.
The homoerotic undertones are blatant: Vanel is attracted to
Montand, but it's a one-way attraction, hence the Vanel-Montand-Vera
triangle with V's jaleousy of her. Of course we don't have enough
backstory to decided whether Vanel is actually a homosexual or just
has homo tendencies he denies and channels into "male friendship".
Whatever the case, I find all this aspect of the film very heavy-
handed.
The homosexual strain is obvious to viewers today but I'm not
sure it was to audiences in the fifties -- at the time most people
associated homosexuals with effeminate, limp-wristed, lisping types
always played for laughs in movies. I don't remember audience
reactions when I first saw the film when it came out (I was very
young!) but I don't think the Vanel-Montand relationship elicited
laughs...
JPC
12180
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> The homoerotic undertones are blatant: Vanel is
> attracted to
> Montand, but it's a one-way attraction, hence the
> Vanel-Montand-Vera
> triangle with V's jaleousy of her. Of course we
> don't have enough
> backstory to decided whether Vanel is actually a
> homosexual or just
> has homo tendencies he denies and channels into
> "male friendship".
Of come on, J-P! He's in love with Montand.And the
fact that Vanel is old and witheed and Montand is
young and cute is part of the whole point.
Moreover you're overlooking Peter Van Eyck and his
boyfirend in the other truck. Vanel wishes he and
Montand could be like them, but they're not.
> Whatever the case, I find all this aspect of the
> film very heavy-
> handed.
Less heavy-handed to me than awkward. Dired up old men
fall in love with cute younger men all the time. But
usuually they're not driving trucks carrying
nitroglycerine.
> The homosexual strain is obvious to viewers
> today but I'm not
> sure it was to audiences in the fifties -- at the
> time most people
> associated homosexuals with effeminate,
> limp-wristed, lisping types
> always played for laughs in movies.
Not always. You;re forgetting "Ossessione."
I don't remember
> audience
> reactions when I first saw the film when it came out
> (I was very
> young!) but I don't think the Vanel-Montand
> relationship elicited
> laughs...
> JPC
>
>
I wouldn't expect that it would do so. Vanel is so
pathetic.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12181
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:14pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> I wouldn't expect that it would do so. Vanel is so
> pathetic.
>
>
> David, do you identify with Vanel? Or Vera?
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12182
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> >
> > David, do you identify with Vanel? Or Vera?
Neither.
"Identification" is a rather fascinating question. The
person that I "identified" with most in the entire
hsitory of the cinema is the late Richard Warwick in
"If. . ."
There are a lot of performers I've been hung-up on in
various ways. Julie Christie above all. And Anna
Karina too.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12183
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Question about dirty prints
> It sounds like these prints may have been assembled and
> loaded for platter projection.
Thanks for the replies. If this is (as I suspect) what it is, I can't believe it's being executed so crudely, with unsightly shapes (short strips which seem to be markers, actually, not joins) smutching up the image at periodic intervals -- a degree of disregard for the viewing experience that seems unprecedented. Since others don't seem to have noticed it in this form, maybe it's just these few theaters (assuming it's the projectionists that assemble the platters?)
12184
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:42pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > > David, do you identify with Vanel? Or Vera?
>
> Neither.
>
> "Identification" is a rather fascinating question. The
> person that I "identified" with most in the entire
> hsitory of the cinema is the late Richard Warwick in
> "If. . ."
>
> There are a lot of performers I've been hung-up on in
> various ways. Julie Christie above all. And Anna
> Karina too.
>
> It is indeed a fascinating question. It is sort of taken for
granted that people "identify" with characters on the screen, but do
they really? And how and to what extent? I've never been really sure
what "identification' really mean... Personally I never much
experienced anything like identification (although I dididentify a
lot with the Marie Riviere character in LE RAYON VERT).
To be "hung up" on a performer, as you say, is not the same as
identifying with a character. How do you see the connection?
JPC
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12185
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> To be "hung up" on a performer, as you say, is not
> the same as
> identifying with a character. How do you see the
> connection?
>
It proceeds from a fascination with their behavior -
mannerims, turns of phrase, etc. Julie Christie being
bored in "Darling" reminded me of my own moments of
boredom and frustration. Plus there's the fact that
screen actors can do things so much better than we
mere mortals can.
But speaking of immortals. Here I am with someone with
whom I identify in more ways than I can name - Todd
Haynes
http://www.bonusround.com/book3-10/images/outfest04-45.jpg
This was taken at "Outfest" on Thursday night.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12186
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Question about dirty prints
>(assuming it's the projectionists that assemble the platters?)
It is. The prints are shipped on the 2000' (nowadays) show reels and the
projectionists "build the show" as it's called.
-sam
12187
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:49pm
Subject: The Film Prayer
On the subject of dirty prints, though it doesn't get into specifics or serve as a case
manual, _The Film Prayer_, which is printed in the back of Paolo Cherchi-Usai's Silent
Cinema, is something everyone should read, every projectionist should interpret and
adapt according to his or her own situation, and every print shipper/programmer
should know:
(published 1920)
I am celluloid, not steel; O God of the machine, have mercy. I front four great dangers
whenever I travel the whirling wheels of the mechanism.
Over the sprocket wheels, held tight by the idlers, I am forced by the motor's might. If
a careless hand misthreads me, I have no alternative but to go to my death. If the
springs at the aperture gate are too strong, all my splices pull apart. If the pull on the
take-up reel is too violent, I am torn to shreds. If dirt collects in the aperture, my film
of beauty is streaked and marred, and I must face my beholders - a thing ashamed
and bespoiled. Please, if I break, fasten me with clips; never with pins. Don't rewind
me - my owner wants that privilege, so that he may examine me, heal my wounds,
and send me rejuvenated upon a fresh mission.
I travel many miles. I am tossed on heavy trucks, sideways and upside down. Please
see that my own band is wrapped snugly around me on the reel, so that my first few
coils do not slip loose in my shipping case, to be bruised and wounded beyond the
power to heal. Put me in my own shipping case. Scrape off all the old labels so I will
not go astray.
Speed me on my way. Others are waiting to see me. The 'next day' is the last day I
should be held. Have a heart for the other fellow who is waiting, and for my owner
who will get the blame. Don't humiliate me by sending me back without paying my
passage.
I am a delicate ribbon of celluloid - misuse me and I disappoint thousands; cherish
me and I delight and instruct the world.
12188
From: Zach Campbell
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:42pm
Subject: Re: DC rental resources
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, joey lindsey wrote:
> I have recently moved from Chicago to Washington, DC,
> and am missing the Facets like mad. If anyone knows somewhere to
> get good stuff from around here I'd appreciate the info.
Joey, maybe someone has already mentioned this one offlist (or
onlist in a message I might've overlooked), but I just got in to my
computer this afternoon and thought I'd recommend the Potomac Video
chain which has branches in and around DC. The District could
possibly have other good stores or smaller chains, but Northern
Virginia, at least, has no better video rental source. The
Twinbrook branch has Hiroshi Inagaki's CHUSHINGURA as well as Kenji
Mizoguchi's THE 47 RONIN ... unless they were forced to downstock.
But last time I checked the store, some months ago, it seemed like
whoever was in charge was ensuring that they kept getting *more*
kickass stuff.
--Zach
12189
From:
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:13pm
Subject: Re: DC rental resources
Joey, then Zach:
> > I have recently moved from Chicago to Washington, DC,
> > and am missing the Facets like mad. If anyone knows somewhere
to
> > get good stuff from around here I'd appreciate the info.
>
> Joey, maybe someone has already mentioned this one offlist (or
> onlist in a message I might've overlooked), but I just got in to
my
> computer this afternoon and thought I'd recommend the Potomac
Video
> chain which has branches in and around DC. The District could
> possibly have other good stores or smaller chains, but Northern
> Virginia, at least, has no better video rental source.
Back when I was growing up in DC, I fell hard for the Video Vault,
which had a store in Georgetown and one in Old Town Alexandria, wand
was a pretty astounding place -- they had pretty much every film
Roberto Rossellini ever made, for a while (this was back when
finding even OPEN CITY was a chore), and a massive cult section. I'm
pretty sure the Georgetown branch is closed, but the Alexandria
branch might be open. (The rental sections at a couple of the local
Tower Videos are also surprisingly decent, but mainly for legit-
release titles.)
Also, you should be able to rent from Facets via mail order, for a
somewhat annoying S&H fee. I also like to rent via mail from my
favorite Connecticut video store, Best Video (at www.bestvideo.com).
The search engine on their site is lousy, but they've got a great
collection, and you get to keep the videos for a while.
-Bilge
12190
From: Filipe Furtado
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Translating titles
>
> There is a long history of absurd translations of original titles.
> One of my favorites in French is "Invasion des profanateurs de
> sepulture" for "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". But I've heard that
> Rissient loved it (even though there are no graves or grave robbers
> in the movie).
The original Body Snatchers come out here Vampire of Souls. A classic one is
Rio Bravo which became here "Where the Hell Begin". I remember Terence
Davies geting very angry when a journalist told him in a interview that The
House of Mirth turn into "The Scent of Love" here.
Filipe
12191
From: Filipe Furtado
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Joseph Cotten (was Welles interviews)
>As canonical as it may be, Cotten in "The Third Man" MUST be
mentioned! There's also a great spaghetti western he made in the late
60s entitled "The Hellbenders" (d: Sergio Corbucci) with a fantastic
Ennio Morricone score. It's a shame that in the 1970s, his character
roles dipped to such dreck as "Airport '77", which is just abysmal.
But as Peter mentions: he was back in fine form for
Cimino's "Heaven's Gate"!
In the 70's he was also in Aldrich's great (and very underated) Twilight's
Last Gleaming.
Filipe
12192
From: Filipe Furtado
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:20pm
Subject: Re: Brazilian films
>
> Filipe, if you don't mind my asking, what do they
> think of Walter Salles & Hector Babenco nowadays in
> Brazil? And who are your favorite Brazilian filmmakers?
Noel, sorry for the very late answer, but I was without computer.
Babenco is well respected veteran. But his last three films (At the Play in
fields of the Lord, Shining Heart - his best - and Carandiru) all got mixed
reviews. He seems to have become one of those old filmmakers which nearly
everyone respects,but whose new work is received with suspicion (Nelson
Pereira dos Santos recent work , unfortunately, got the same reception),
which as usual is very unfair.
Salles is very well liked by the press. He is also very important as a
producer (a role where he not always get credit), his production company
Videofilmes had being involved with many important recent films (good or
bad) like Madame Satã, City of God, Master Building and To the Left of the
Father. I like most of his early films, but he seem to me to have made a
turn to worst with Behind the Sun (and the Che Guevara film is pretty bad
too). Also a important info that usually get underplayed is that Daniela
Thomas co-directs both Foreign Land and Midnight, which not by coincidence,
feels less excessive studied than the others Salles films. BTW, Salles
brother João Moreira is a fine documentary filmmaker too.
Filipe
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
12193
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:31pm
Subject: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> http://www.bonusround.com/book3-10/images/outfest04-45.jpg
>
> This was taken at "Outfest" on Thursday night.
>
> >
>
>
> Thanks David. Nice to see your picture. Are you the one with hair?
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12194
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wages and contemporary language
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> >
> > Thanks David. Nice to see your picture. Are you
> the one with hair?
> >
> >
Alas, no.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
12195
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:50pm
Subject: Re:(was contemporary language in old...
>
> > Pirates of the Carribean is a great example of inventing a
> believable
> > past.
>
> I just cited it elsewhere as being flawed - almost the first line
of
> the film is "Are you OK?" which surely SOMEBODY should have
suggested
> changing to a slightly less jarring "Are you alright?"
I know -- I was referring to your post, the first in a_film_by
history that mentions this film, for which I felicitate you. I agree
about "OK" and a ton of other anachronoisms in it. Actually, I was
citing Depp's performance as an anachronism -- in the sense of being
modelled on an actual present-day person -- that works, because it's
so unconventional. You believe that maybe there could've been a
pirate like that, or at least I did.
> Generally I never find PERFORMANCES themselves anachronistic - as
> Malkovich said of his turn in DANGEROUS LIAISONS, "I don't see how
> you can say people weren't like this unless you were alive at the
> time and knew everybody in the world."
My least favorite actor making my least favorite argument. Keanu
Reeves' performance in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure transferred
to, say, a film about 16th Century England, even if all the dialogue
was changed, would strike us as anachronistic. In fact this is
something people used to say all the time about Tony Curtis when he
was doing costumers.
I thought Malkovich ruined Liasons Dangereuses, but I may be a little
prejudiced.
12196
From: Charles Leary
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:55pm
Subject: Re: DC rental resources
Well, have you tried Video Americain? They've got stores in Takoma Park (MD) and Adams
Morgan. They're not great, but relatively speaking... You're not going to find anything
anywhere close to Facets.
CL
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, joey lindsey wrote:
> I know there's been a list of regional avant-gard/independent/auteur
> friendly video rental stores on here before, but i can't find it at the
> moment, and netflix has been removing several dvds from their
> circulation (due to demand, they say - probably due to theft). I was
> looking forward to seeing *Chushingura, *for instance, and they no
> longer offer it. I have recently moved from Chicago to Washington, DC,
> and am missing the Facets like mad. If anyone knows somewhere to get
> good stuff from around here I'd appreciate the info.
12197
From:
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:13pm
Subject: Re: Bunuel's book
"This book has been modified from its original format. It has has
been altered to fit your attention span and/or cultural prejudices."
Sam
>
>It wouldn't be half as bad if publishers in the US had the decency to
>put - even in microscopic print - a disclaimer along the lines of
>"Portions of the original have been altered for this edition" or some
>such.
>
> Jan Bielawski
>
> Mastersofcinema.org
12198
From: Elizabeth Anne Nolan
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:14pm
Subject: Robert J. Flaherty: A Biography by Paul Rotha
watched MAN OF ARAN today
Robert J. Flaherty: A Biography by Paul Rotha
available free
http://nimbus.temple.edu/~jruby/wava/Flaherty/title.html
12199
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:27pm
Subject: Re:(was contemporary language in old...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
people used to say all the time about Tony Curtis when he
> was doing costumers.
>
Yes, because of his Brooklyn accent. But in fact he was no more
anachronistic than anybody else.
> I thought Malkovich ruined Liasons Dangereuses, but I may be a
little
> prejudiced.
A little? Of course he didn't ruin LIAISONS (no matter how
anachronistic everybody's acting may be, it's still a great movie).
12200
From: Jaime N. Christley
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:35pm
Subject: Re: Pirates of the Caribbean
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> But where did the theme park ride Pirates of the Caribbean
> come from ...
>
More pirate movies. Which in turn fed from serials and legends and
other fictions, and so on.
With plastic recordings and even, say, old journals and old newspapers
and other first-hand recording devices, we can get at least a "rough
idea" how people talked. And if it's not accurate enough for us, we
can still pick up on vocal inflections and different things that might
be interesting, things you can't hide through theatricality and artifice.
With a movie like PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN, you're dealing with a copy
of a copy of a copy...but the movie is bland as hell, the dialogue is
a very small affair.
-Jaime
a_film_by Main Page
Home Film
Art
Other: (Travel, Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact