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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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15701
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Thomson
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
> disaster of the Millenium
>> Thomson is just another example of this
>
> I believe another female "guru" (whose name escapes me at the
> moment, [perhaps, mercifully, due to repression] which Brad
Stevens
> will supply) wrote a meandering article in Murdoch's SUNDAY TIMES
> several years ago, criticizing Lauren Bacall and extolling the
> virtues of Cynthia Rothrock.
>
>> Tony Williams
P.S. "Mein Fuhrer, I can remember" - in a variant of SHOCK
CORRIDOR and DR. STRANGELOVE!
I've just remembered the miscreant's name - Julie Burchill,
formerly "film critic" for the Murdoch Times. She went on to write
for THE GUARDIAN, a British knee-jerk supporter of Tony Blair, and
contributed further humanistic pieces of journalism such as her
infamous article attacking Islam
15702
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 0:27am
Subject: Re: Film title standards?
It's also especially important to get the title exactly right, including
spelling, so that someone who searches for a title can find it either
via google or Yahoo archives or eventually those archives I'll put up.
Fred Camper wrote:
>
>"The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence,"
>
when he should have written
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Fred Camper
15703
From:
Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:59pm
Subject: Re: Schedule change for TCM's Ulmer tribute
Happy Edgar G. Ulmer's Birthday!
Have been taping everything, and have seen a couple Ulmers new here "live"
Jive Junction (1943)
St. Benny the Dip (1951)
Thought "Jive Junction" was really interesting. Its film style reminded me of
"Murder Is My Beat". There are the same sort of exteriors, including a tree
shot like the giant pine in the snow sequence of "Beat". And the interiors
feature some of Ulmer's patented maze like tracking shots through complex sets, as
in "Beat" to come.
This visual similarity is despite "Jive Junction" being a musical, and
"Murder Is My Beat" being a whodunit mystery.
On a single viewing "St. Benny the Dip" seems less interesting. It has an
engagingly oddball cast. Both films show Ulmer's interest in classical music,
although this is more prominent in the earlier film.
Mike Grost
15704
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:07am
Subject: Re: Philippine cinema
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Alexis Tioseco
wrote:
"What is your impression of Philippine Cinema (both new
and old)?
"What Filipino films have you seen? What Filipino
filmmakers names appear in your head like light bulbs
in cartoons when you think of the Philippines?"
Alas, I haven't seen any Fiipino films since leaving Hawai'i 30 years
ago. It was possible to see Fillipino movies in Honolulu at a
theatre that catered to the multi-ethnic local population, and one
could see some movies on the University of Hawai'i Manoa campus. I
saw several romance and musical films without English subtitles and
some of them were interesting. The one movie that I remember to this
day was called IGAROTA (sp?)which as I recall was in a different
dialect. Unlike the genre movies I saw then, this film didn't look
like a Euro-American movie; the visual presentation was unique.
Any recommendations of Fillipino films you or Noel have are welcome.
Richard
15705
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:56am
Subject: Re: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
>>What I cannot understand is why the world of film criticism so
>>consistently attracts third-rate thinkers such as Thomson (who
>>provides nothing more than a slightly intellectualised variation
> In a very early thread I quoted Adrian to the effect that Thomson
> has captured the mantle of Kael -- the average middle class
> culturatum's answer to all those dreadful people writing about
> "filum." That insight totally nails Thomson. What I raised by
> quoting Adrian was the question: Why are Kaels and Thomsons
> needed? Is the auteur theory really THAT much of a threat?
Hmmm - Thomson has no defenders? I have my problems with him, starting
with the 1981 2nd edition of BIO DICT, where his writing went into a
strange mode and stayed there. But the first edition was very important
to me, turning me onto a lot of directors that I'd never paid attention to.
For my money, the essay on Hawks in BIO DICT is the single best thing
written on him. I don't think it's a lonely eminence, either. Thomson
lacks precision but sometimes has great insight.
Whatever else Thomson may be, he's certainly an auteurist: he was a
Cahiers follower as a kid, is taste-wise very much within the shaky
boundaries of the movement. The last revision, in 2002 or so, makes it
clear that he still sees a huge number of films and finds new obscure
directors to recommend. - Dan
15706
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:58am
Subject: Re: Film title standards?
> I checked the site for any standards on how to write film titles but couldn't
> find anything. Normally, I would italicize but I don't think italics travel
> well (at all?) across the internet. So is it quotes or caps? Or?
I think the Chicago Manual of Style says italics for films, quotes for
TV programs. I use caps on the net for film titles. - Dan
15707
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:02am
Subject: Re: Philippine cinema
> The cinematography
> of the film was by Mike De Leon (one of only two or
> three films he did cinematography for, other than his
> own), who later became a filmmaker himself and is
> considered one of the best and most intellectual
> Filipino directors. He directed such classic films as
> "Kisapamata" (In the Blink of an Eye), "Batch '81"
> (Class of '81), and "Bayaning 3rd World" (Third World
> Hero), among a crop of only works... all brilliant in
> different ways.
I must say I had a very rough time with BATCH '81. The sadism was hard
for me to handle, and I didn't see what else de Leon was up to, other
than some political allegory. - Dan
15708
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:23am
Subject: Re: Film title standards?
In "real" formatted writing where italics is an option, the distinction
is often quotes for series, italics for a sub-work, or vice versa. I'd
italicize a film title that was part of a longer series of films and put
the series title in quotes.
Dan Sallitt wrote:
>I think the Chicago Manual of Style says italics for films, quotes for
>TV programs. I use caps on the net for film titles. - Dan
>
>
15709
From: iangjohnston
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:40pm
Subject: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> >>What I cannot understand is why the world of film criticism so
> >>consistently attracts third-rate thinkers such as Thomson (who
> >>provides nothing more than a slightly intellectualised variation
>
> > In a very early thread I quoted Adrian to the effect that
Thomson
> > has captured the mantle of Kael -- the average middle class
> > culturatum's answer to all those dreadful people writing about
> > "filum." That insight totally nails Thomson. What I raised by
> > quoting Adrian was the question: Why are Kaels and Thomsons
> > needed? Is the auteur theory really THAT much of a threat?
>
> Hmmm - Thomson has no defenders? I have my problems with him,
starting
> with the 1981 2nd edition of BIO DICT, where his writing went into
a
> strange mode and stayed there. But the first edition was very
important
> to me, turning me onto a lot of directors that I'd never paid
attention to.
>
> For my money, the essay on Hawks in BIO DICT is the single best
thing
> written on him. I don't think it's a lonely eminence, either.
Thomson
> lacks precision but sometimes has great insight.
>
> Whatever else Thomson may be, he's certainly an auteurist: he was
a
> Cahiers follower as a kid, is taste-wise very much within the
shaky
> boundaries of the movement. The last revision, in 2002 or so,
makes it
> clear that he still sees a huge number of films and finds new
obscure
> directors to recommend. - Dan
I don't know about this Sight & Sound article but even the oft-
maligned latest edition of the BIO DICT has more pluses than
minuses. Granted he hasn't "kept up" with recent international
cinema, but I've always enjoyed the passion and commitment to cinema
in the best of the articles, even if I haven't necessarily agreed
with the value judgments. One for auteurists, I would have thought.
15710
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:42pm
Subject: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
> What I cannot understand is why the world of film criticism so
> consistently attracts third-rate thinkers such as Thomson (who
> provides nothing more than a slightly intellectualised variation on
> the kind of writing which dominates VARIETY and PREMIERE).
UI think thomson's continued "success" such as it is, depends on his
past rep and his ability to write a pleasing sentence (so long as one
doesn't consider its meaning).
He was once a perfectly insightful writer. he still writes well. And
because of his early rep and his verbal skills he continues to find
wqork, writing articles on subjects that only appeal to cineastes,
while denouncing cinephilia.
Recent crimes: an article on Nick Ray which criticised
Eisenschitz's "flawed" biography, while basically plagiarising all
its information from that book, and ignoring several key films, and a
piece on THE WIND that calls it one of the greatest silents, then
says it's not really that good, and is "crying out for sound".
The horror is he's writing for newspapers and will be read by young
people interested in films who won't have the knowledge to treat what
he says with the skepticism it merits.
15711
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Walken (OT)
> > I see it as a version of the gospels with Walken as God.
>
> Sounds good to me -- the "cold dead penis" certainly fits.
It's interesting to ask hardline Christins if they truly believe God
is male, ie if He has a penis. The belief seems to be that yes, He
has one, but no, He certainly doesn't use it. Ever. Certainly not for
fathering His child. Though why not is beyond me.
15712
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Walken (OT)
--- cairnsdavid1967 wrote:
>
> It's interesting to ask hardline Christins if they
> truly believe God
> is male, ie if He has a penis. The belief seems to
> be that yes, He
> has one, but no, He certainly doesn't use it. Ever.
> Certainly not for
> fathering His child. Though why not is beyond me.
>
>
All religion centers on sexual desire that is equated
with death.
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15713
From:
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Re: Walken (OT)
Can't resist jumping into this discussion (I am a Roman Catholic and a
Buddhist).
God is considered a spirit by Christians. Spirits do not have bodies, or any
physical components.
The gender of God is a much discussed but inconclusive subject among
Christians. Many believe God is both male and female.
A bumper sticker popular among feminists reads: "Trust in the Lord - She will
provide."
Mike Grost
15714
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
>>But the first edition was very
>> important
>>to me, turning me onto a lot of directors that I'd never paid
>> attention to.
Back in post #12355, I played the old game titled, "Who are the most
important directors that Sarris left out of THE AMERICAN CINEMA?" (I'm
always interested in seeing other people's ballots, by the way.) Of my
short-list directors - Powell, Fregonese, Hamer, Jennings, Rowland
Brown, Farrow - the BIOGRAPHICAL DICTIONARY missed only Brown, and
Thomson waxed enthusiastic enough about the others to spark my interest.
So that's enough to keep him in my good graces for life.
Thomson was no less adventurous with world directors, at least back
then, and I can think offhand of at least two of my favorites - Deville,
Delvaux - who had slipped under my radar until his book came out. At
that time (1976), it was still common among both auteurists and
non-auteurists to label the British cinema a disaster area, and
Thomson's persistent interest in British film past and present was
especially valuable for me. - Dan
15715
From:
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:05am
Subject: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
Some of the terms used in this discussion need clarification.
We hear about "entertainment" (bad) and "challenging films" (good).
Is "entertainment" here a code word for genre films - comedies, science
fiction, Westerns, romances, mystery thrillers? Are we saying the genre films of
Hitchcock, Lang and Hawks are garbage?
Does "challenging" mean "realistic dramas set among everyday life"? Or does
it mean slow moving but narrative films without much in the way of plot? Must a
film be relentlessly gloomy to be "challenging" - no comedies need apply? Why
are all the examples given of challenging films - Angelopoulos, Hou,
Kiarostami - a million miles away from experimental filmmakers such as Stan Brakhage
or Jordan Belson?
Mike Grost
15716
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
At
> that time (1976), it was still common among both
> auteurists and
> non-auteurists to label the British cinema a
> disaster area, and
> Thomson's persistent interest in British film past
> and present was
> especially valuable for me. - Dan
>
His writing is worthless.
Raymond Durgnat spoke up for the British cinema -- and
world cinema -- with eloquence and force while Thomson
was still rummaging through old "Cahiers."
That posts about Thomson have gone on this long truly
mazes me. There are so many worthwhile critics to
discuss: Durgnat, Manny Farber, Michel Mourlet,
Laurence Alloway.
Richard Hamilton's paintings based on stills of
Patricia Knight in Sirk's "Shockproof" constitute one
of the greatest pieces of film criticism ever
concieved.
__________________________________
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15717
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:08pm
Subject: Strictly silent
On the occasion of the Murnau retro in NYC, I wondered who were the
greatest directors who never made a talkie. I didn't come up with much
competition for Murnau: maybe Feuillade's reputation is nearing that
level these days. And Stiller, possibly. Anyone I'm forgetting? I can
think of good directors like Antoine, Gad, Peixote, and Bauer, but I
don't think their arms are long enough to box with Murnau, at least on
the basis of what I've seen. Keaton would be a shoo-in, but I give him
fairly substantial directing credit on some of those sound films that
have other directors' names on them. Winsor McCay? - Dan
15718
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:56pm
Subject: Re: What is Entertainment? (Was David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"Some of the terms used in this discussion need clarification.
We hear about 'entertainment' (bad) and 'challenging films' (good).
Is 'entertainment' here a code word for genre films - comedies,
science fiction, Westerns, romances, mystery thrillers? Are we
saying the genre films of Hitchcock, Lang and Hawks are garbage?"
Depends on who the viewer is. I had the unhappy experience of seeing
THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE with a college age audience at the
University of Illinois Urbana campus once, and the movie was booed
and heckled, evidently a negative reaction to the iconography of John
Wayne. For a lot of people Lang and Hawks are garbage (Hitchcock
still gets a pass)not because they made genre films but for aesthtic
reasons. I have watched RIO BRAVO with educated humanist-inclined
folks who found it boring and inept; so for them the movie was
challenging to sit theough to the end and not entertaining. The
same people thought WHILE THE CITY SLEEPS badly made, dated, poorly
acted; the challenge for them here was to understand why I and a few
others liked this movie.
As for Brakhage, Belson, Angelopoulos and Kiarostami, they're beyond
the pale for quite a lot of people, even self-described film fans.
So not only do we have to clarify the terms "challenging"
and "entertainment" we have to determine what these terms mean in
relation to a specific audience or viewer.
Richard
15719
From: Fred Camper
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
MG4273@a... wrote:
>Some of the terms used in this discussion need clarification.
>We hear about "entertainment" (bad) and "challenging films" (good).
>....
>
It's possible to see Hawks's "Bringing Up Baby" and be "entertained"
without being particularlyh challenged. The same experience is probably
not possible with Brakhage's "The Art of Vision," or even the shorter
"Dog Star Man," unless you're the kind of viewer who is "entertained" by
flahsing colors and lights whether coherent or not -- to see the
coherence in "Dog Star Man" is challenging, on other words.
But for me seeing "Bringing Up Baby" is equally challenging. That's it's
entertaining and hilarious is a given, and for me not all that
important. Seeing the subtleties and unsettling qualities in its rhythm,
seeing it in terms of the way Hawks (yes, Hawks) uses light, that's
harder, that requires seeing many other Hawks films, that requires being
a "weird" viewer of Hawks like me, since few seem to see his films as I do.
I think most of us understand that Hollywood films can work on a variety
of levels at once. Robin Wood did a fine job arguing for that in his
original Hitchcock book.
Fred Camper
15720
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Walken (OT)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
"All religion centers on sexual desire that is equated
with death."
Maybe for mainstream religion but not for Aliester Crowley and
assorted neo-pagans. As Crowley put it: "When you have proved that
God is merely a name for the sex instinct, it appears to me not far
to the perception that the sex instinct is God." And eros is life.
By the way, given the references to Crowley's Thelema in PERFORMANCE,
was Donald Cammell related to Crowley's disciple R. C. Cammell?
Richard
15721
From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Schedule change for TCM's Ulmer tribute
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Happy Edgar G. Ulmer's Birthday!
> On a single viewing "St. Benny the Dip" seems less interesting. It
has an
> engagingly oddball cast. Both films show Ulmer's interest in
classical music,
> although this is more prominent in the earlier film.
>
> Mike Grost
I love St. Benny, which divides Ulmerians. The transformation of NY
into an Ulmer set (with judicious use of forced perspective fake
sets) is one of his great achievments. The mostly nocturnal mood,
halfway between memory and dream, is magical. The script (by
hardboiled mystery writer Roeburt) is one of the best Ulmer ever had.
So many poetic moments: the first entry in the cathedral with the
huge organ chords; when Stander sees the two boys who could be him
and a friend years before, suddenly appearing out of the past; the
nocturnal perambulations of the Bishop (and his great line about
finding oneself to the baffled Wilbur); the park bench scene with the
receding lights behind (again signifying the past), the first time
Stander sees his wife again (wonderfully underplayed, wonderfully un-
H'wd), the reading of Genesis over the old mens' faces, the old man
who is going to kill himself ("I've been a shadow on the earth"). I
rate it up there with Detour, and in another universe from the
delightfully minor Jive Junction. Benny also has a superb -- and very
Ulmerian -- score. Revisit it someday, Mike.
15722
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Walken (OT)
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
>
> By the way, given the references to Crowley's
> Thelema in PERFORMANCE,
> was Donald Cammell related to Crowley's disciple R.
> C. Cammell?
>
Yep.
His father.
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15723
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
> Anyone I'm forgetting?
Stroheim !
(Walking Down Broadway not withstanding)
-Sam
15724
From:
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:46pm
Subject: Re: Schedule change for TCM's Ulmer tribute
Sure was not trying to dismiss "St. Benny the Dip".
I agree that the Genesis reading is magical. And the musician's talk about why he performs - a key moment in a filmmaker who has celebrated music so often.
Will definitely re-watch this film, keeping in mind all of Bill Krohn's favorite scenes.
A personal note (OT). Lionel Stander was suposedly the spitting image of my Mother's Uncle Jake (who I never saw). Whenever he would show up on screen, my Mother would say, "There's Uncle Jake!"
Mike Grost
15725
From:
Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:04pm
Subject: Re: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!
Agree with everyone's insights about entertainment and being challenged. My brief post was trying to suggest that there were great complexities with these terms - complexities that a_film_by-ers are exploring in depth in their posts.
Another thing about being challenged by a film. It has at least two meanings. It sometimes is used to describe unsympathetic audiences, watching a film out of their experience - people who were expecting to see "Raiders of the Lost Ark", but who wound up with a print of "Angel" (Lubitsch) instead.
But challenge can also take place among the most sympathetic viewers. It can refer to straining your whole mind to the maximum to understand a work of art. This is how Fred Camper is using the term. This sort of experience can be absolutely wonderful.
I am a natural Brakhage fan. Have never seen a Brakhage film to which I did not enjoy right away. But understanding is different. Watching the magnificent "by Brakhage" DVD recently, thought the short abstract films (eg. "Stellar", "The Dante Quartet") would be quick viewing. So I watched one. Then watched it again. Then I stepped through single frame. Then watched it at 1/7 speed. Everytime its seemed more and more complex, and revealed more and more! My brain was trying to take in entirely new kinds of film I had never seen before. It was liking finding a whole new world!
Mike Grost
15726
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:09am
Subject: Re: Schedule change for TCM's Ulmer tribute
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I love St. Benny, which divides Ulmerians.
It's an odd one to love, but count me in as one who fell for its
spell too. I'd call it an attempt at showing stylized poverty a la
Miracle in Milan, tho with no overt miracles but the same oddball
optimism and hope. It's got some Le Miserables and Beckett thrown in
too.
Agreed on Stander's scene (it could be his best role ever), but I
think you forget as one of the best of the 'magic' moments when
Benny grudgingly gets up and says something to the effect of "all
right, I'll give you your grand finale" and does just that.
I'm not sure on some of the plot points (very noisy where I was
watching at the time): so Stander's story is left with that
bittersweet meeting? And what happens to the elderly 'dip' (Roland
Young)--does he go to jail or are they just letting him see what
ultimately happens to Benny?
The Yiddish films are lovely; I keep thinking of Renoir with A Day
in the Countryside, and that final sequence in Grand Illusion. Green
Fields is a particular favorite.
15727
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:25am
Subject: Re: Philippine cinema
Surprised at the sudden interest in Philippine cinema. If I may
address as many posts as I can:
On recommendations on Philippine films, I posted a list of 13
favorites here:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/130
with the added warning that anyone who begins covering Filipino
films from the '80s onwards (much as Alexis and I have) struggle
against the deterioration of film prints, even of films as recent as
from the '80s (I note that in the article); in fact our earliest
available prints come only from 1939--we have an increasingly
serious state of amnesia, in effect, with regards to our film
heritage.
If I were to rewrite that article, I'd finally try do a
comprehensive list and include Gerardo de Leon's "El Filibusterismo"
(The Filibuster, 1962) as a great adaptation of an important social-
protest novel; and Celso Ad Castillo's "Burlesk Queen" (Burlesque
Queen, 1977) for its sheer visual poetry. Plus Lav Diaz's 5-hour
drama "Batang West Side" (West Side Avenue, 2001) and Mario O'Hara's
war/horror/lyric/love story "Pangarap ng Puso" (Demons, 2000) for
pointing new directions for our cinema--Diaz for applying the
narrative styles of Hou Hsiao Hsien and Tarkovsky to his stories,
O'Hara for employing the low-budget techniques of Edgar Ulmer and
Larry Cohen to an imaginative and even poignant view of the world.
As to zarzuelas, I'm surprised any textbook would mention '70s
musicals; not that there weren't any, but that they were less like
filmed zarzuelas (which had their heyday in the '30s and '40s--the
charmingly simple "Giliw Ko" (My Love, 1939) being the oldest
surviving example) than like Hollywood musicals on a shoestring
budget. Maybe the most innovative recent musical is Mike De
Leon's "Kakabakaba Ka Ba?" (an intricate pun on the word "worried"
(kakaba) and "are you?" (ka ba?) which translates, lamely,
into "Worried?") in 1980.
I'd also agree that de Leon's "Batch '81" (1982) is sadistic--
effectively so, I'd say, and it's correct to assume de Leon meant
the violence allegorically, as a metaphor for Marcos' fascism, but
that this is hardly his best work; "Kisapmata" (Blink of an Eye,
1981) suggests the violence psychologically, and is far more
personal and evocative (there are those that say it's
autobiographical, at least with regards to certain characters). The
writer of the Film Comment article that covered de Leon's works
(from "Itim" (Rites of May, 1975) to "Batch '81") did a good job,
but I think he really missed out when he failed to see that film.
Incidentally, wrote about de Leon here:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/320
As for available copies of Lino Brocka's "Maynila sa Mga Kuko ng
Liwanag" (Manila in the Claws of Neon, 1975); I remember seeing VHS
copies in New York's video stores, presumably subtitled. The only
new, fairly clear VHS copy (authorized by producer-cinematographer
Mike de Leon) can be found here:
http://www.kabayancentral.com/video/vhs/lvn/lvnmsmknl.html
which, sadly, is probably un-subtitled. A DVD is being planned, but
that's the future; best I can suggest is inviting Filipino friends
to watch and do "benshi."
Two Brocka films can be found at Facets in Chicago; "Orapronobis"
and "Macho Dancer." I wouldn't know if they have subtitles or not.
Recent Filipino films I recommended can be found on VCD format here:
http://www.regalfilms.com/
and search for titles like Mario O'Hara's "Babae sa Bubungang Lata"
(Woman on a Tin Roof), "Sisa", "Pangarap ng Puso" ("Sisa" is hard to
recommend--think really, REALLY cut-rate Ulmer--but insanely
imaginative); Peque Gallaga's erotic noir "Scorpio Nights;" Lav
Diaz's science-fictional "Hesus Rebolusyunaryo" (Jesus the
Revolutionary). All, unfortunately untitled.
Another alternative is Cinema One in The Filipino Channel, which a
lot of Filipinos seem to subscribe to; they show almost all the
films I've mentioned above (untitled, unfortunately); if you have a
friend who has a subscription, he could tape it for you, maybe even
do "benshi"...
15728
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:35am
Subject: Re: Batman Returns script (was: comic book movies)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
> wrote:
>
> > The Father stops and
> > gapes the cigarette holder out of his mouth to see a
> > SCREECHING NURSE wail out of the mansion room and
> > disappear down the other end of the hallway.
>
> Ah, Chester Copperpot! Burton was washing dishes for a living
> when Paul Rubens called and asked him to helm Pee Wee's Big
> Adventure, and he never forgot. Batman Returns was just after
> Rubens' misadventure in Florida.
Tucker Cobblepot. Always tickled me that DeVito's Penguin was the
mutant progeny of PeeWee Herman.
15729
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Walken (OT)
> All religion centers on sexual desire that is equated
> with death.
Buddhism?
I sort of think religion may have a point - sexual desire and death
are both functions of being alive. And I love Tarkovsky's line
about "The purpose of the artist is not to entertain the audience. It
is to prepare them for death."
But to me, that IS entertainment.
15730
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:36pm
Subject: Re: Walken (OT)
> God is considered a spirit by Christians. Spirits do not have
bodies, or any
> physical components.
My born-again, baptist schoolfriend still insisted that He had a
cock. We never got around to speculating as to its size.
> The gender of God is a much discussed but inconclusive subject
among
> Christians. Many believe God is both male and female.
So He can have sex with himself? Now THAT'S omnipotent.
There's a disturbing poem by Gavin Ewart about what kind of God would
invent breast cancer. Not a female one, I suspect.
15731
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
Not sure what Keaton sound films you think he co-directed are. He
seems to have definively lost control of his work at the coming of
sound. He certainly had a lot to do with the late silent films which
he's not credited on as director, but I prefer to absolve himof all
blame for the likes of SPEAK EASILY.
Paul Leni might be another nominee, I have a soft spot for him, esp
THE MAN WHO LAUGHED.
15732
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:43pm
Subject: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
> Not sure what Keaton sound films you think he co-directed are. He
> seems to have definively lost control of his work at the coming of
> sound. He certainly had a lot to do with the late silent films which
> he's not credited on as director, but I prefer to absolve himof all
> blame for the likes of SPEAK EASILY.
I believe Jean-Pierre also took this position when the subject came up
last year. I dunno, obviously there's more meddling in his career at
MGM, amd maybe even more in the sound films than in THE CAMERAMAN and
SPITE MARRIAGE. But I get the feeling that other factors were at work
in his decline besides interference.
I rather like PARLOR, BEDROOM AND BATH, and have always thought it the
standout among the early sound films. I don't really have a nomination
for second place. Some people persist in liking DOUGHBOYS. Among the
later films, I'm fond of LE ROI DES CHAMPS-ELYSSES.
The IMDb implies that Keaton got directing credit on some of his late
30s shorts at Educational and MGM, including the sometimes-praised GRAND
SLAM OPERA - can't recall whether that's true, but he didn't even take
directing credit for STEAMBOAT BILL JR., so the credit's no indication.
Whatever constitutes comedy direction, I think he was doing it to some
extent well into the sound period. - Dan
15733
From:
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
Agree that Feuillade, Stroheim, Murnau were the giants who did not have real
chances with sound films.
But William Desmond Taylor did a good job with his lyrical version of "Tom
Sawyer". His murder cut short an interesting career. Have never seen any of
Thomas Ince's work.
I liked Louis Trimble's comedy short with John Bunny, "Her Crowning Glory",
too.
Did Alice Guy get to make sound films?
Mike Grost
15734
From: Craig Keller
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:06pm
Subject: Ronwell Dobbs
I was wondering whether anyone on the list had ever gotten the chance
to see the original cut of Bob Odenkirk's and David Cross's film 'Run,
Ronnie, Run,' and whether any bootlegs of their cut have been known to
circulate.
thanks,
craig.
15735
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Schedule change for TCM's Ulmer tribute
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> I'm not sure on some of the plot points (very noisy where I was
> watching at the time): so Stander's story is left with that
> bittersweet meeting? And what happens to the elderly 'dip' (Roland
> Young)--does he go to jail or are they just letting him see what
> ultimately happens to Benny?
Stander stays home and raises his kids not to be like him; Young
stays on to run the mission. After a screening at someone's apt. of
St. Benny with Shirley Ulmer there I commented on the unsentimental
but deeply felt portrayal of poor people in this film and Detour, and
she said, "That was because he had been so poor himself."
>
> The Yiddish films are lovely; I keep thinking of Renoir with A Day
> in the Countryside, and that final sequence in Grand Illusion.
Green
> Fields is a particular favorite.
Besides the beautiful scenes of nature, and natural light used in
interiors, Green Fields has some of the spirit of the Popular Front.
Ulmer or someone added a line to the play, otherwise intact -- the
marriage of the rabbi and the farm girl symbolizes "The union of
Torah and Labor."
15736
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
Have never seen any of
> Thomas Ince's work.
Civilization is out on Kino, I think -- I have rented it. I like it a
lot, but I LOVED the one silent western signed by Ince that I saw at
UCLA. Would walk a mile to see another one.
15737
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:19pm
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Not sure what Keaton sound films you think he co-directed are.
He
> > seems to have definively lost control of his work at the coming
of
> > sound. He certainly had a lot to do with the late silent films
which
> > he's not credited on as director, but I prefer to absolve himof
all
> > blame for the likes of SPEAK EASILY.
>
> I believe Jean-Pierre also took this position when the subject
came up
> last year. I dunno, obviously there's more meddling in his career
at
> MGM, amd maybe even more in the sound films than in THE CAMERAMAN
and
> SPITE MARRIAGE. But I get the feeling that other factors were at
work
> in his decline besides interference.
>
> I rather like PARLOR, BEDROOM AND BATH, and have always thought it
the
> standout among the early sound films. I don't really have a
nomination
> for second place. Some people persist in liking DOUGHBOYS. Among
the
> later films, I'm fond of LE ROI DES CHAMPS-ELYSSES.
>
> The IMDb implies that Keaton got directing credit on some of his
late
> 30s shorts at Educational and MGM, including the sometimes-praised
GRAND
> SLAM OPERA - can't recall whether that's true, but he didn't even
take
> directing credit for STEAMBOAT BILL JR., so the credit's no
indication.
> Whatever constitutes comedy direction, I think he was doing it
to some
> extent well into the sound period. - Dan
As far as Keaton is concerned, directing credits are totally
irrelevant. Keaton was the auteur of all his silent shorts and
features, whether he was credited as director, co-director, or, in
most cases, not credited at all. THE CAMERAMAN and SPITE MARRIAGEare
still great films although Keaton was already in the clutches of
MGM. When I systematically screened all the sound features in
preparation of my Keaton book I was appalled by their abysmal
stupidity and the way they totally (and it seems, deliberately)
destroyed BK's personality and style. I really became depressed
watching those horrors. The "reasons" for this abrupt and
precipitous decline have often been discussed, including by me at
length. MGM's total incomprehension of and disregard for Keaton's
type of comedy, the multitudes of writers and the tyranny of sound,
Keaton's growing personal problems with family and alcohol.
LE ROI DES CHAMPS ELYSEES is a curious movie, not very good,
actually pretty bad, but a thousand times better than any of the
repulsive MGM features (some of which were huge box office hits, by
the way).
Haven't posted in a week or so as I lost my computer during one of
the hurricanes.
JPC
15738
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:12am
Subject: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
> Civilization is out on Kino, I think -- I have rented it. I like it a
> lot, but I LOVED the one silent western signed by Ince that I saw at
> UCLA. Would walk a mile to see another one.
The ending of HELL'S HINGES is awesome - the sensibility feels more like
1970 than 1915. - Dan
15739
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:21am
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Haven't posted in a week or so as I lost my computer during one of
> the hurricanes.
>
> JPC
Another victim of global warming! Glad you're still with us, J-P.
15740
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:22am
Subject: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> The ending of HELL'S HINGES is awesome - the sensibility feels more
like
> 1970 than 1915. - Dan
Is that the one where the hero says to his horse, "I don't have
anyone but you"? That's the one I saw.
15741
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:33am
Subject: Re: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
> Is that the one where the hero says to his horse, "I don't have
> anyone but you"? That's the one I saw.
Don't remember for sure, but that doesn't sound right. HELL'S HINGES is
the one where....
SPOILER SPACE...
...the whole town burns down at the end. - Dan
15742
From:
Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:50pm
Subject: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
Always thought "Hell's Hinges" was directed by its star William S. Hart and
Charles Swickard (who he?).
It's a remarkable movie.
It is available, if memory serves, on the first "Treasures from America's
Film Archives" set (is this name quite right?). Along with the first all-color
feature film, "The Toll of the Sea" (Chester M. Franklin) - a two color
Technicolor gem. Plus lots of good experimental films.
Mike Grost
PS Also like Hart's farewell feature, "Tumbleweeds".
15743
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:54am
Subject: Re: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
> Always thought "Hell's Hinges" was directed by its star William S. Hart and
> Charles Swickard (who he?).
I don't know, but the AFI Catalog. which credits Swickard, says, "Modern
sources indicate William S. Hart was a co-director on this film and that
Thomas Ince directed, or at least closely monitored, the scene depicting
the burning of Hell's Hinges. Modern sources also credit Mon Randall
with the art titles." - Dan
15744
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:54am
Subject: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I am a natural Brakhage fan. Have never seen a Brakhage film to which I did
not enjoy right away. But understanding is different. Watching the magnificent
"by Brakhage" DVD recently, thought the short abstract films (eg. "Stellar",
"The Dante Quartet") would be quick viewing. So I watched one. Then
watched it again. Then I stepped through single frame. Then watched it at 1/7
speed. Everytime its seemed more and more complex, and revealed more
and more! My brain was trying to take in entirely new kinds of film I had never
seen before. It was liking finding a whole new world!
Fascinating, as I too played these films back at the slowest settings on my
DVD player! "Mothlight" especiall benefitted from this one. And there was the
8 second film (that I played at 1/8 speed and still was barely a minute) that I
still didn't understand after playing in slo-mo.
Question for Fred (and other Brakhage fans): would you consider yourself a
Brakhage "purist"... at least insofar as regards watching Brakhage in slow-mo
on a DVD player is not the way the films were intended to be experienced? I
am grateful for your work on the Criterion DVDs (even if you think Mike and I
watched them the wrong way).
"Lovesong" (2001) is probably my favorite Brakhage film. Maybe I let the title
influence my associations with an otherwise abstract film, but watching it
almost made me cry. The rhythm and colors in that film are unbelievable.
15745
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:59am
Subject: Re: A Brighter Summers Day II
The annoying thing
> is that the English subtitles on the four-hour version are pretty
> inadequate, so that, for example, it is impossible to understand
the
> relevance of the radio broadcast in the final scene.
The content of the radio broadcast at the end is actually quite
simple: it's just a list of the names of the graduating students. As
far as I know, that bit has never been translated, so I owe
this "discovery" to Stephen Teo, with whom I saw the 4-hour version
in Taipei over a decade ago.
15746
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:59am
Subject: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Always thought "Hell's Hinges" was directed by its star William
Sthe AFI Catalog. which credits Swickard, says, "Modern
> sources indicate William S. Hart was a co-director on this film and
that
> Thomas Ince directed, or at least closely monitored, the scene
depicting
> the burning of Hell's Hinges. Modern sources also credit Mon
Randall
> with the art titles." - Dan
Mystery shrouds the Ince filmography, which is full of lost films and
confusing credits. On the slender evidence I've seen he might have
gone on to stand in the annals with Griffith and Dwan if he hadn't
been accidentally murdered by Hearst!
15747
From: Noel Vera
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:55am
Subject: Blockbuster Online
Anyone checked out Blockbuster Online? They seem to have a more
extensive catalogue than Netflix, if their website can be believed.
15748
From:
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:24am
Subject: Re: Ince (Was: Strictly silent)
Had no idea Thomas Ince was involved with "Hell's Hinges". So maybe I have
seen an Ince film after all.
This film has apparently never been out of the public memory, since it was
made in 1916. A pretty good rep for a movie.
Thanks,
Mike Grost
15749
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:19am
Subject: Re: A Brighter Summers Day II
"The content of the radio broadcast at the end is actually quite
simple: it's just a list of the names of the graduating students. As
far as I know, that bit has never been translated, so I owe
this "discovery" to Stephen Teo, with whom I saw the 4-hour version
in Taipei over a decade ago."
It's translated in the subtitles of the 3-hour version as transmitted
by the BBC.
15750
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
Am inclined to agree, though I haven't watched many of the MGM films
in their entirety. I think keaton had lost control to such an extent
that any creative input he may have had could have been regarded
as "interference" - it's not MGM messing with a Keaton film, it's him
messing with an impersonal MGM production which would have worked as
well if not better with someone else in the lead.
Keaton did have more creative control over the Educational shorts,
some of which are just about OK.
I think Keaton's directors on the later silents probably have a bit
of effect on the films, more so than his co-directors on the early
ones. I think COLLEGE is less pleasingly shot that classic Keaton,
the compositions aren't as good and the shot distance not as perfect -
though that may be a function of bad video cropping, it's hard to be
sure without seeing that one on the big screen.
I think Keaton is clearly the master eye on THE CAMERAMAN, but on
that nad SPITE MARRIAGE it's easy to see he doesn't have the plot
fully under control, probably due to studio interference, maybe due
to declining powers caused by the demon drink. The man who made the
beautifully symmetrical THE GENERAL couldn't have been solely
responsible for these rather rambling storylines.
15751
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:00pm
Subject: Duvivier
LA FIN DU JOUR is one of my favourite films, moving and funny and
probably the best film ever about actors.
I think PANIQUE is also fascinating, and some of his Hollywood work
has amazing moments of high style.
Anyone else interested in this guy? - he seems to be the main
filmmaker downgraded by the Cahiers critics whose work hasn't yet
found the appropriate level of appreciation.
15752
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:05pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
> Did Alice Guy get to make sound films?
She stopped in 1920, but I think there may have been an early synch-
sound experiment in her oevre, before sound "came in". Seem to recall
something about this in Brownlow's "Cinema Europe" doc series.
Have heard her described as "arguably the first director" - would
this be because she tackled narrative subjects before anyone else?
the early Lumiere shorts are pseudo-documentary reportage, and the
early Melies are trick films without narrative, but I believe Guy
wnet straight for short stories - am I right?
15753
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:58pm
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
>
>
> I think Keaton's directors on the later silents probably have a
bit
> of effect on the films, more so than his co-directors on the early
> ones. I think COLLEGE is less pleasingly shot that classic Keaton,
> the compositions aren't as good and the shot distance not as
perfect -
> though that may be a function of bad video cropping, it's hard to
be
> sure without seeing that one on the big screen.
I agree on COLLEGE. It's a comparatively minor one and visually
much inferior to the other silent features (except THREE AGES)so I
don't think it's an effect of bad video cropping, at least not only.
But the sense of space and composition in all of Keaton's silents is
definitely Keaton's not Clyde Bruckman or Chuck Reisner or Ed
Sedgwick (who directed THE CAMERAMAN, but also all but one of the
absolutely atrocious MGM sound features).
> I think Keaton is clearly the master eye on THE CAMERAMAN, but on
> that nad SPITE MARRIAGE it's easy to see he doesn't have the plot
> fully under control, probably due to studio interference, maybe
due
> to declining powers caused by the demon drink. The man who made
the
> beautifully symmetrical THE GENERAL couldn't have been solely
> responsible for these rather rambling storylines.
I had read so many putdowns of SPITE MARRIAGE before finally
seeing it (in a good 35 print in a theatre)that i was very
pleasantly surprised to find it so good despite obvious weaknesses.
Yes the construction is flawed; it's really two different films in
one, a fairly static first part and an action packed second one
(mostly aboard the boat.) But actually this construction (which
recalls that of SEVEN CHANCES) is somehow faithful to Keaton's oft-
stated preference for a slow build-up of comic action (starting
with "small gags" etc...) Moreover, in SPITE the keaton persona
remains intact, whereas starting with the first talking feature it
will be thoroughly destroyed.
15754
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:14pm
Subject: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Lee"
wrote:
"Question for Fred (and other Brakhage fans): would you consider
yourself a Brakhage "purist"... at least insofar as regards watching
Brakhage in slow-mo on a DVD player is not the way the films were
intended to be experienced?"
It was while I was at NYU that I first saw Brakhage's films, and they
were screened the way he wanted them to shown. However, for
analytical purposes one could watch them on a steenbeck (this was
before home video)and I think that's entirely legitimate provided one
has seen them the "right" way first. It's not unlike examing an oil
painting by look at it under raking light or reading earlier drafts
of a poem or novel in order to deepen one's appreciation of the
finished work.
Richard
15755
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:34pm
Subject: RE: Blockbuster Online
> Anyone checked out Blockbuster Online? They seem to have a more
> extensive catalogue than Netflix, if their website can be believed.
I signed up for the free four weeks, got my two free in-store
rentals, then cancelled. The selection seems thinner to me than
Netflix, but I have a hard time finding anything I want to see
on either of the two sites. I've been most pleased with Nicheflix
so far.
15756
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:54pm
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- cairnsdavid1967 wrote:
>
> Anyone else interested in this guy?
Stephen Sondheim has recently spoken of his enthusiasm
for Duvivier.
One can easily see "Un Carnet du Bal" and "La Fete a
Henriette" as musicals.
Overal his considerable talent has been greatly
overshadowed by that of Renoir.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
15757
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:49pm
Subject: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
> Question for Fred (and other Brakhage fans): would you consider yourself a
> Brakhage "purist"... at least insofar as regards watching Brakhage in slow-mo
> on a DVD player is not the way the films were intended to be experienced?
What ya gonna do, sit there and say "I shouldn't be doing this" ?
Perhaps Film Comment should have a new column: Guilty Viewing Pleasures :)
Really, they hold up. ...I remember Stan showing an Andrew Noren film,
which as it unspooled, turn out to be upside down and backwards,
(double perf print stock) and saying "works for me" (altho the projectionist
stopped and rewound it...)
> "Lovesong" (2001) is probably my favorite Brakhage film. Maybe I let the title
> influence my associations with an otherwise abstract film, but watching it
> almost made me cry. The rhythm and colors in that film are unbelievable.
It's one of my fav of the handpainted, but I have a reading that radically
diverges from a assumptions based on its title; (ditto with "Delicacies of
Molten Horror Synapse" (an unfortunate title IMO) which deals, uniquely
for Brakhage I think, in bi-lateral symmetries, the furthest exploration he
did of an architecture of image; and actually I would argue an expeditionrary
probe into electronic image-making.
Maybe I'll post my read of "Lovesong" here or on Frameworks sometime.
All in all, I prefer the best of the photographed films though.
I don't think *anything* by anyone touches what "The God of Day Had
Gone Down Upon Him" touches.
-Sam
15758
From:
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
<>
No, because sooner or later, someone will tell you that you shouldn't be doing that.
Kevin John
15759
From: Travis Miles
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Strictly silent
I vote for Emile Cohl!
On 9/18/04 12:08 PM, "Dan Sallitt" wrote:
> On the occasion of the Murnau retro in NYC, I wondered who were the
> greatest directors who never made a talkie. I didn't come up with much
> competition for Murnau: maybe Feuillade's reputation is nearing that
> level these days. And Stiller, possibly. Anyone I'm forgetting? I can
> think of good directors like Antoine, Gad, Peixote, and Bauer, but I
> don't think their arms are long enough to box with Murnau, at least on
> the basis of what I've seen. Keaton would be a shoo-in, but I give him
> fairly substantial directing credit on some of those sound films that
> have other directors' names on them. Winsor McCay? - Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
15760
From: samfilms2003
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
> No, because sooner or later, someone will tell you that you shouldn't be doing that.
Not me.
You could practically memorize the film, and then, it really *would* attain the
the status of Lyric.....
-Sam
15761
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
> Am inclined to agree, though I haven't watched many of the MGM films
> in their entirety. I think keaton had lost control to such an extent
> that any creative input he may have had could have been regarded
> as "interference" - it's not MGM messing with a Keaton film, it's him
> messing with an impersonal MGM production which would have worked as
> well if not better with someone else in the lead.
Even WHAT, NO BEER?, arguably the worst of the MGM films, recreates the
SEVEN CHANCES boulder gag with a truck full of runaway barrels. I don't
exactly get the feeling that Keaton is planted in the middle of studio
projects (well, maybe in FREE AND EASY), even if the results aren't that
great.
> I
> think COLLEGE is less pleasingly shot that classic Keaton, the
> compositions aren't as good and the shot distance not as perfect
I love COLLEGE, though - I've always thought it was underrated.
I wonder if sound pictures didn't give studios more to interfere with.
Sarris pointed out years ago that writers suffer more interference than
directors, because the script is a tangible thing that studio people can
recognize and mutilate, whereas direction isn't so concrete. It makes
sense that sound scripts give the studio people an even better idea of
what they're dealing with than silent scripts did. - Dan
15762
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
Well, I guess I'm not as much of a "natural Brakhage fan" as Mike Grost,
since there are a handful of his films that I not only didn't like right
away but rather disliked right away, including one of the DVD, "The
Stars are Beautiful," and a short one a year earlier, "The Women," and
one that's even later, "Confession."
The films on the DVD were made to be shown on a projector at 24fps.
There's nothing wrong with looking at them at a slower speed, in my
view, as a way of studying them, but I don't think of these as actual
viewings of the films, purist that I am, and think their purpose should
be primarily to feed back into new viewings of the films at the correct
speed. This doesn't mean that viewing them at slower speeds can't be
(and shouldn't be) pleasurable. Looking at the actual strips can be
pleasurable too, as some of the strips are beautiful in themselves,
which is why I've placed a number of scans on the Web, indexed at
http://www.fredcamper.com/Film/BrakhageS.html (not all the stills are on
that page but they're all linked to from the title list near the top).
(There actually are larger versions that should come up when you click
on the smaller, but in most browsers for some reason they don't display
any larger, though if you download them and open them in a graphics
program they will be -- if any Web experts know what's going on, please
email me offlist.) Examining the strip, if you have access to a print,
is yet another way of enhancing your understanding; I bought an extra
print of "Mothlight" so I could let audiences handle it when I showed it
in lectures. The only point about looking at the strip or viewing at
slower speeds is that it's not the actual intended film viewing experience.
Brakhage did make some films intended to cohere at different projection
speeds, though none of those are on the DVD.
I think it's just fine to be extra moved by "Lovesong" because of the
title, and doubtless part of Brakhage's intent.
Fred Camper
15763
From: Elina Shatkin
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:18pm
Subject: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
I have a well-loved bootleg tape of "Run, Ronnie, Run" from a couple of
years ago. While not as brilliant as a Mr. Show sketch, I thought it
was still funny and well above the average Hollywood comedy so I was
surprised it never received a theatrical release, especially
considering the show's following. I haven't seen the "official" release
(which Bob & David vehemently do not endorse) so I don't know how much
it differs from my copy. Yes, the bootleg of the original is out there.
-e
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:06:28 -0400
From: Craig Keller
Subject: Ronwell Dobbs
I was wondering whether anyone on the list had ever gotten the chance
to see the original cut of Bob Odenkirk's and David Cross's film 'Run,
Ronnie, Run,' and whether any bootlegs of their cut have been known to
circulate.
thanks,
craig.
15764
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:14pm
Subject: Obscure Oshima
My Latest FaBlog entry
http://fablog.ehrensteinland.com/
should be of interest to this group.
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15765
From: Dave Kehr
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:17pm
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
Just to alert Keaton fans with region free players: MK2 in France
has just released an amazing restoration of "The General." It
reveals photographic qualities I never suspected existed. A must
have. The same company is also putting out a complete collection of
the shorts, which I've got on order but haven't received yet.
Check 'em out at www.fnac.fr.
15766
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Obscure Oshima
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> My Latest FaBlog entry
>
> http://fablog.ehrensteinland.com/
>
> should be of interest to this group.
I was just talking about Three Resurrected Drunkards Friday
night -- it's one of my very favorite Oshimas, one of the few that is
actually funny. It's very funny, in fact. I saw it at MOMA back in the
day and have never forgotten it.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
15767
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Kehr"
wrote:
>The same company is also putting out a complete collection of
> the shorts, which I've got on order but haven't received yet.
> Check 'em out at www.fnac.fr.
My favorite short: The High Sign.
15768
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:05pm
Subject: For the tech fiends
Pardon the long paste-in, but I know some will be interested and
I don't have a link for it:
Competing for DVD Supremacy
By KEN BELSON
Published: September 20, 2004 NEW YORK TIMES
F you thought the battle over videocassette formats - VHS or
Betamax - was the technology war to end all others, think again.
Like that legendary fight, the current battle over the format for the
next generation of digital videodiscs, which will be able to store
six times more data than current DVD's and carry high-definition
images, will ultimately determine who will reap the billions to be
generated from royalties and the sales of new DVD players.
Advertisement
But beyond that, the contest is about no less than competing
visions of how entertainment will be delivered in the coming
decades. It is also a vivid display of competition in an age when
devices seem destined to turn quickly into cheap commodities.
The DVD format war between two powerful camps intensified
last week when a group of investors led by Sony agreed to buy
Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, a move that many say will give Sony
another supporter in Hollywood for adopting Blu-ray, the new
DVD technology it is developing with a coalition of partners. That
move comes as the big electronics and computer companies
and movie studios, which have been coyly neutral on this
question for years, start to pick sides.
The rivalry between the competing coalitions - Blu-ray, led by
Sony and relying heavily on Sony technology, and the HD-DVD
format group using technology from its leaders, Toshiba and
NEC - is turning into a fight over whether the television or the
computer will dominate the living room.
The battle lines appear clear enough. On the Blu-ray side are
mainly consumer electronics companies like Panasonic,
Samsung and Sharp that have a strong interest in making sure
the television set remains the main device for watching movies,
playing video games and so on. Many of those companies also
have existing relationships with Sony. Samsung, for instance, is
building a liquid crystal display factory with Sony in Korea.
"Consumers need something to play on their new,
high-definition televisions," said Erin Sullivan, the director of
planning at Panasonic Hollywood Lab.
Dell and Hewlett-Packard, two giant computer makers, also
joined the Blu-ray group this year. They, too, see their future as
much in the consumer electronics market as in computers, and
have been selling music players, flat panel screens and other
devices.
On the other side, Toshiba and NEC are big computer
companies that, broadly speaking, see the television as a
display monitor that in the future will have a hard drive run by
software and be connected to the Internet. In this vision, home
servers will let consumers retrieve digital information throughout
their homes, with DVD's being viewed on computers as well as
on flat panel televisions. They also expect the new DVD discs to
sell well to computer users who want to store more pictures,
music and data.
The Toshiba and NEC camp also won an important
endorsement in July when Microsoft said that its next Windows
operating system would be compatible with the HD-DVD format.
"For the Blu-ray group, it is all about entertainment and for
Toshiba it's about computers," said Paul O'Donovan, a principal
analyst at Dataquest, a research firm.
The two camps are also taking different approaches to
developing their formats. Betting that the new DVD players are
likely to turn into inexpensive commodities produced by many
manufacturers, and that speed to market is crucial, Toshiba and
NEC have chosen essentially to upgrade the technology of the
current DVD format, which they say would save money and time,
rather than start anew. The discs for the HD-DVD format, which
store less data than the Blu-ray discs, are also cheaper to
produce, according to Toshiba.
"Our concept," said Hisashi Yamada, Toshiba's key engineer in
the development of HD-DVD's and the chief engineer and
negotiator for the HD-DVD group, "is to extend the current
structure of DVD's very naturally, very smoothly."
Sony and the Blu-ray group have taken a different route. They
decided to develop a brand new system because, they say, the
jump from standard definition to high definition requires a whole
new technology, and consumers will be unwilling to pay for
something that is just an upgrade of existing technology.
In this way, the Blu-ray group appears to be sticking to Sony's
decades-old strategy: selling products for a premium based on
exclusive technology. This tactic worked with big hits like Sony's
Trinitron television, but it has faltered in recent years.
Indeed, Sony's go-it-alone style is harder to carry out these days
as discount retailers like Wal-Mart and competition from
Chinese manufacturers drive prices down.
Of course, by teaming up with archrivals like Panasonic to form
the Blu-ray Disc Association, Sony has shared its technology
and the cost of developing it. But the Blu-ray group, which now
counts 13 members, is still viewed as an exclusive bunch trying
to create a worldwide standard that they can control. Blu-ray
developers say they kept their group small to make it easier to
develop the new format, and the association is now trying to
share its technology with more companies.
There is another motive, too. In the early 1990's, Sony and
Toshiba fought over the formats for the first generation of DVD's.
Sony eventually lost that battle. The current fight may be an effort
by Sony to extract a certain amount of revenge on Toshiba.
Toshiba, of course, would like to build on its corporate success
story.
"Sony is also trying to keep as much for itself," said Mr.
O'Donovan, who added that Sony was headed into a cul-de-sac
by trying to defend proprietary technology.
Toshiba and NEC, by contrast, have sought approval for its
format from the DVD Forum, an international standards group of
220 manufacturers, software companies and others, including
many from the Blu-ray group. By trying to win over the widest
possible audience for its format, the HD-DVD group is acting
more like a computer company advocating more open
standards.
Toshiba and NEC appear to have an early jump on the Blu-ray
group. In July, Toshiba said it would start selling next-generation
DVD recorders using its new format next year. Japan's largest
distributor of pre-recorded DVD's, Pony Canyon, will also roll out
movies in the HD-DVD format along with Toshiba's new
machines.
Memory-Tech, a disc manufacturer based in Tokyo, has already
produced 250,000 of the new HD-DVD discs in test runs, and
says its factory lines can switch easily between DVD's in the
current format and the new HD-DVD's. Those new discs are only
10 percent more expensive to make because they use the same
material and equipment as the current generation of DVD's.
Although Sony started selling Blu-ray DVD machines last year,
those machines initially cost close to $4,000 and can play very
little recorded content.
While the electronics and computer makers tussle over the
standard, the first users of the next-generation DVD's may in fact
be video game console makers.
Sony will likely use Blu-ray technology in the next generation of
PlayStation machines, which may be unveiled sometime next
year. If Microsoft, the maker of XBox, wants to beat Sony by
putting out its new line of consoles first, it may be forced to use
HD-DVD technology simply because those discs may be
available sooner. More important, Microsoft may be loath to give
its rival, Sony, a market for its Blu-ray technology.
15769
From: Kevin Lee
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:08pm
Subject: Good Korean films, bad Korean films (was feel good)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Kehr" wrote:
> Also, speaking of despised action filmmakers, how about Park Chan-
> wook? Everyone seemed to hate "Old Boy" at Cannes, but now, having
> seen it on a Korean DVD, I'm wondering if that wasn't anti-
Tarantino
> backlash. It's a very inventive picture, full of interesting,
> offbeat choices, as are Park's previous (though much less mature)
> films, "Joint Security Area" and "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" (the
> latter an interesting parallel to "A Short Film about Killing").
I haven't seen the long version of the Kieslowski film; instead I was
compelled to compare SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE favorably to MYSTIC
RIVER -- I think it's more inventive narratively and visually and it
left me feeling more devastated without resorting to grandiose
gestures (granted that the latter is defined in the eye of the
beholder -- I still found Eastwood's film very powerful though not
entirely persuasive)
And speaking of filmmakers resorting to grandiose gestures...
> I'd take him over that pompous exoticist Kim Ki-duk ("Spring,
> Summer, Winter, etc.) any time.
>
> Dave Kehr
As the Sikh people would say, "Bole sau nihal saat sri akaal"
(translated: This is why you are DA MAN, Mr. Kehr!)
Kevin
15770
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Brakhage in slo-mo (was: David Thomson 'answers' his critics!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> Perhaps Film Comment should have a new column: Guilty Viewing
Pleasures :)
Or, following Manohla Dargis ("I don't believe in guilty pleasures,
only disreputable ones"): Disreputable Viewing Pleasures!
:)
-Jason G.
15771
From: Robert Keser
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:17pm
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
> LA FIN DU JOUR is one of my favourite films, moving and funny and
> probably the best film ever about actors.
>
> I think PANIQUE is also fascinating, and some of his Hollywood >
work has amazing moments of high style.
>
> Anyone else interested in this guy? - he seems to be the main
> filmmaker downgraded by the Cahiers critics whose work hasn't yet
> found the appropriate level of appreciation.
Much of Duvivier's best work is simply impossible to see in the
English-speaking world: people are lucky if they've had a chance
to see MARIA CHAPDELAINE, LA BELLE ÉQUIPE, UN CARNET DE BAL, or
even the charming LA FÊTE À HENRIETTE.
Actually, it's surprising that some enterprising exhibitor has
not revived Duvivier's GOLGOTHA to ride that PASSION OF THE
CHRIST wave. This not only offers the scriptures as played by
Edwige Feuillère but also Jean Gabin as Pontius Pilate! I would
certainly buy a ticket (and/or DVD).
If Duvivier had done nothing else – not PÉPÉ LE MOKO, nor
the rather underrated Hollywood films (especially LYDIA) – his
reputation would still be assured by his quite fresh and heart-
wrenching POIL DE CAROTTE (the 1931 talkie version), one of those
30s dramas that brims over with immediacy from its en plein air
setting, like TONI or Grémillon's PATTES BLANCHES. What now
makes the film still more poignant is that its two stars (who
played in four films together) also shared the same sad fate:
Harry Baur was tortured by the Nazis and then died in highly
suspicious circumstances in 1943, while young Robert Lynen
(son of American expatriate parents) became a Resistance leader
called "L'Aiglon" and was himself tortured and then executed
by the Gestapo in 1944. (There's a biography of him in French
by François Charles). Even without the background history,
though, more people need to see this film.
--Robert Keser
15772
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Duvivier
--- Robert Keser wrote:
>
> If Duvivier had done nothing else – not PÉPÉ LE
> MOKO, nor
> the rather underrated Hollywood films (especially
> LYDIA) – his
> reputation would still be assured by his quite fresh
> and heart-
> wrenching POIL DE CAROTTE (the 1931 talkie version),
> one of those
> 30s dramas that brims over with immediacy from its
> en plein air
> setting, like TONI or Grémillon's PATTES BLANCHES.
This is my cue to speak up for the SECOND remake of
"Pepe Le Moko" -- "Casbah." Directed by John Berry and
starring Tony Martin, Marta Toren and Yvonne DeCarlo,
it's a musical with a Beyond Superb score by Harold
Arlen that includes "Hooray For Love" and "It Was
Written in the Stars."
__________________________________
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15773
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: One Never Knows -- Do One
Wow! I'm about a quarter of the way through "Isherwood
-- A Life Revealed" By Peter Parker (no not Spiderman)
http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g008/peterparker.html
when I came across the startling piece of information
that Jean Ross, the model for "Sally Bowles" became
pregnant in real life by Peter Van Eyck -- then a
young unknown but eventually the star of such films as
"The Wages of Fear," "Mr.Arkadin," and "The Thousand
Eyes of Dr.Mabuse."
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15774
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:07pm
Subject: Re: Obscure Oshima
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
"My Latest FaBlog entry
http://fablog.ehrensteinland.com/
should be of interest to this group."
Your discussion of THREE RESURRECTED DRUNKARDS/KAETTE KITA YOPPARAI
was really good. I wish more people could see this film (it wasn't
even shown an at the last Oshima retrospective in L.A. of about 10
years ago, so I guess it dosen't have a US distributor.) The
execution photographed by Adams was also filmed and shown on US
television, but it was an edited version. The complete version can
be seen in HEARTS AND MINDS which I hear is being re-released. They
should give out the current anti-war button that says "Iraq is Arabic
for Vietnam" to everyone as they leave the theatre.
Richard
15775
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Duvivier
I haven't see a whole lot of Duvivier -- isn't MOMA doing a retro
when it reopens?; hope so -- but I adore the fascinating "Lydia." It
has a very European feel to it, with a gentle ruefulness permeating
the picture.
It's about an elderly women reunited with a trio of men who were all
in love with her 40 years earlier, and essentially the film sets
forth in flashback a litany of regrets, dashed hopes, improbable
dreams, self-delusions. While the overall attitude is one of
stoicism, Duvivier handles much of the flashback scenes in a
dreamlike manner and with an almost operatic fervor that borders on
the unhinged. Peter Tonguette's favorite actor Joseph Cotton is one
of the suitors, and his presence calls to mind The Magnificent
Ambersons from the next year (particularly in a scene in which he's
driving a sleigh). Lydia shares with Ambersons an achingly astute
awareness about the pain of memory.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
>
> If Duvivier had done nothing else – not PÉPÉ LE MOKO, nor
> the rather underrated Hollywood films (especially LYDIA) – his
> reputation would still be assured by his quite fresh and heart-
> wrenching POIL DE CAROTTE (the 1931 talkie version), one of those
> 30s dramas that brims over with immediacy from its en plein air
> setting, like TONI or Grémillon's PATTES BLANCHES. What now
> makes the film still more poignant is that its two stars (who
> played in four films together) also shared the same sad fate:
> Harry Baur was tortured by the Nazis and then died in highly
> suspicious circumstances in 1943, while young Robert Lynen
> (son of American expatriate parents) became a Resistance leader
> called "L'Aiglon" and was himself tortured and then executed
> by the Gestapo in 1944. (There's a biography of him in French
> by François Charles). Even without the background history,
> though, more people need to see this film.
15776
From: Damien Bona
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> This is my cue to speak up for the SECOND remake of
> "Pepe Le Moko" -- "Casbah." Directed by John Berry and
> starring Tony Martin, Marta Toren and Yvonne DeCarlo,
> it's a musical with a Beyond Superb score by Harold
> Arlen that includes "Hooray For Love" and "It Was
> Written in the Stars."
>
And don't forget Leo Robi's wonderful lyrics. (I guess the biggest
hit from the score back in '48 was "For Every Man There's A Woman.")
Despite the great score, the problem with Casbah is the the songs are
sung by Tony Martin. If I was asked to choose any singer/actor from
that era to reprise Charles Boyer, the only ones I would find less
viable than Tony Martin would probably be Frankie Laine and Gene
Autry.
15777
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Lino Brocka
Did you know that Brocka started in the movies with Monte Hellman,
when he was shooting some stuff for Corman in the Philippines
(Flight to Fury)? That's how Brocka recalls it: "But I had a problem
with Monte Hellman because it was of an incredible slowness. He
spoke during hours, my energy had some difficulties to adapt to this
pace and I drowsed. And when I watched Jack Nicholson discussing for
hours on the way to seat or the clothes to wear, I found these
Americans very complicated"...
Seen a dozen of Brocka's ten years back. All kind of mixed up right
now (guess some were without any subtitles). But some of his last
features left me a strong impression. '90 Gumapang ka sa lusak
(Dirty Affair). I remember the inexorable stronghold of the mise-en-
scene, which ends up swallowing the characters; this energy, which
is not an empty word, but the tension in every single shot, full of
rage and heart.
Was his last work, '91 Kislap sa dilim, actually finished? Not much
info on IMDB. Just bought on the net Fight For Us and Matcho Dancer
(only available DVD).
15778
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" >
Actually, it's surprising that some enterprising exhibitor has
> not revived Duvivier's GOLGOTHA to ride that PASSION OF THE
> CHRIST wave. This not only offers the scriptures as played by
> Edwige Feuillère but also Jean Gabin as Pontius Pilate! I would
> certainly buy a ticket (and/or DVD).
If you speak some Japanese or some French, try the Japan DVDs. They
released there Golgota, la Fête à Henriette and l'Affaire Maurizius.
And maybe more. All available on fnac.fr, with some others.
Maxime
15779
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Duvivier
--- Damien Bona wrote:
> >
> And don't forget Leo Robi's wonderful lyrics. (I
> guess the biggest
> hit from the score back in '48 was "For Every Man
> There's A Woman.")
> Despite the great score, the problem with Casbah is
> the the songs are
> sung by Tony Martin. If I was asked to choose any
> singer/actor from
> that era to reprise Charles Boyer, the only ones I
> would find less
> viable than Tony Martin would probably be Frankie
> Laine and Gene
> Autry.
>
>
Oh I like Tony Martin! He's no Boyer or Gabin, but
could you imagine either of them in "Ziegfield Girl"
singing "You Stepped Out of a Dream" to Hedy Lamarr?
"For Every Man There's a Woman" is marvelous -- sung
by Tony as he walks across the roofs of the Casbah.
_______________________________
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15780
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 0:02am
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>I haven't see a whole lot of Duvivier -- isn't MOMA doing a retro
>when it reopens?; hope so -- but I adore the fascinating "Lydia."
>It has a very European feel to it, with a gentle ruefulness
>permeating the picture.
>
>It's about an elderly women reunited with a trio of men who were
>all in love with her 40 years earlier, and essentially the film
>sets forth in flashback a litany of regrets, dashed hopes,
>improbable dreams, self-delusions. While the overall attitude is
>one of stoicism, Duvivier handles much of the flashback scenes in a
>dreamlike manner and with an almost operatic fervor that borders on
>the unhinged.
I've never had the chance to see CARNET DE BAL, but isn't LYDIA the
American remake? (When you think about it, Merle Oberon isn't a bad
equivalent for Arletty). Anyway, Korda-in-Hollywood certainly pulled
out the stops with a memorably plush production, what with Lee
Garmes' glamorously evocative camerawork and a swooningly romantic
Miklos Rosza score.
>Peter Tonguette's favorite actor Joseph Cotton is one of the >
>suitors, and his presence calls to mind The Magnificent
>Ambersons from the next year (particularly in a scene in which
>he's driving a sleigh). Lydia shares with Ambersons an achingly
>astute awareness about the pain of memory.
It was Cotten's second film, after his debut in KANE.
We forgot to mention Duvivier's quite interesting Foreign Legion
adventure LA BANDERA (though a misguided Annabella wears something
very close to blackface as Jean Gabin's "native" cutie).
--Robert Keser
15781
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 0:13am
Subject: Re: Duvivier
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Oh I like Tony Martin! ... "For Every Man There's a Woman" is
>marvelous -- sung by Tony as he walks across the roofs of the
>Casbah.
I like Tony Martin too, and I even like CASBAH, but all the cornfed
accents on display (we're talking to you, Yvonne De Carlo!) are
offputting when the scene is supposed to be Algiers (in the same
way, the Harold Arlen score is a classic for sure, but the music
derives from a blues idiom that often seems more out of place than
not in this story).
To climb back on topic, Duvivier's musical THE GREAT WALTZ has some
wild, throw-caution-to-the-winds camera moves in the title valse
sequence (but that could be Von Sternberg's uncredited contribution).
--Robert Keser
15782
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:04am
Subject: Re: Obscure Oshima
>. They
> should give out the current anti-war button that says "Iraq is Arabic
> for Vietnam" to everyone as they leave the theatre.
It should say "Iraq is becoming Arabic for Cambodia"
That's how optimistic I am.
-Sam
15783
From: J. Mabe
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:42am
Subject: RE: Blockbuster Online
I think someone on this list recomended Greencine:
http://greencine.com/main ...I signed up about a month
ago and have been pretty happy (they are just a little
slow). They have three Rhitwik Ghatak DVDs and some
imported Asian DVDs.
Josh Mabe
--- Jonathan Takagi wrote:
>
> > Anyone checked out Blockbuster Online? They seem
> to have a more
> > extensive catalogue than Netflix, if their website
> can be believed.
>
> I signed up for the free four weeks, got my two free
> in-store
> rentals, then cancelled. The selection seems
> thinner to me than
> Netflix, but I have a hard time finding anything I
> want to see
> on either of the two sites. I've been most pleased
> with Nicheflix
> so far.
>
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15784
From: Noel Vera
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:21am
Subject: Re: Blockbuster Online
I suspect that the Blockbuster website offers most (but not all) the
titles of a filmmaker to a search request, then includes a picture
of the film only if the film is actually in their catalogue. Which
makes their selection only seem more complete than it actually is.
Very misleading.
For example, if you do a search of Charles Burnett, you get
something like thirteen or so titles (can't remember exactly how
many) including Killer of Sheep, which is supposedly unavailable on
DVD as yet. The title, however, has no picture beside it; the only
titles with pictures are Selma, Lord Selma, that Jazz docu he made
for Scorsese, The Glass Shield, and a few others--exactly the same
titles available on Netflix, and online.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "J. Mabe" wrote:
> I think someone on this list recomended Greencine:
> http://greencine.com/main ...I signed up about a month
> ago and have been pretty happy (they are just a little
> slow). They have three Rhitwik Ghatak DVDs and some
> imported Asian DVDs.
Nicheflix has many flaws, among them some Bollywood DVDs that simply
would not play, but their selection of Indian musicals is overall
better, where Greencine has a better selection of Hong Kong martial
arts movies and anime. I plan to stay with Net till I've plundered
their catalogue, or gotten richer, then move on to Greencine, maybe
use Facets more often (they've moved towards a Netflix-type system
too--only I think you still pay for return postage).
Jukti Takko aar Gappo must be a recent addition; when I checked
Greencine last year they only had two Ghatak, both of which I'd
already seen (and loved).
15785
From:
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:31am
Subject: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
As I understood it from talking to Bob Odenkirk at the time, it
wasn't a matter of going back to the "original cut" so much as
putting up money for Bob and David to do their own re-edit, since
they both admitted in public that they didn't think the first cut was
that funny. It wasn't clear to me if their "super-cut" was ever
realized or if they'd just come up with a plan (or a Wellesian memo)
outlining their intentions. The whole donnybrook was a surprising
since the movie's director, Troy Miller, had directed many episodes
of Mr Show, so he wasn't just some studio hack who clashed with B&D
from the beginning. It is hard to believe the extra footage or
alternate cutting exists that might turn RONNIE into anything
remotely worth watching. But boy, are those Mr Show DVDs worth
renting.
Sam
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Elina Shatkin
>Subject: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
>
>I have a well-loved bootleg tape of "Run, Ronnie, Run" from a couple of
>years ago. While not as brilliant as a Mr. Show sketch, I thought it
>was still funny and well above the average Hollywood comedy so I was
>surprised it never received a theatrical release, especially
>considering the show's following. I haven't seen the "official" release
>(which Bob & David vehemently do not endorse) so I don't know how much
>it differs from my copy. Yes, the bootleg of the original is out there.
>
>-e
>
>
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:06:28 -0400
>From: Craig Keller
>Subject: Ronwell Dobbs
>
>I was wondering whether anyone on the list had ever gotten the chance
>to see the original cut of Bob Odenkirk's and David Cross's film 'Run,
>Ronnie, Run,' and whether any bootlegs of their cut have been known to
>circulate.
>
>thanks,
>craig.
>
>
15786
From:
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:38am
Subject: Re: Good Korean films, bad Korean films
Among all the movies I saw in Toronto (40 plus parts of several
others). Kim's THE 3-IRON was by far the worst, a cloying, noxious
fable that actually made me want to throw things at the screening.
And this from someone who thought SPRING SUMMMER... was a mildly OK
watch. Makes me angry just thinking about it again. If anyone tells
you that golf balls have metaphorical potential, set them straight as
quickly as possible.
On the other hand, something called SPIDER FOREST, which I watched
just because it fit into my schedule, was a quite enjoyable example
of the now-familiar puzzle-box form, whose structure grows so
complicated that the main character ends up watching one version of
himself commit a grisly murder, walking off into the woods, and
getting beat senseless by self # 3. I somehow feel that A TALE OF TWO
SISTERS might have been the last word on the self-reflexive ghost
story, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong some day.
speaking of Korean movies, has anyone posted yet that Hong Sang-Soo's
first three will be available in a French box set in October? Don't
know about English subs.
Sam
> From: "Kevin Lee"
>Subject: Good Korean films, bad Korean films (was feel good)
>
>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Kehr" wrote:
>
>> Also, speaking of despised action filmmakers, how about Park Chan-
>> wook? Everyone seemed to hate "Old Boy" at Cannes, but now, having
>> seen it on a Korean DVD, I'm wondering if that wasn't anti-
>Tarantino
>> backlash. It's a very inventive picture, full of interesting,
>> offbeat choices, as are Park's previous (though much less mature)
>> films, "Joint Security Area" and "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" (the
>> latter an interesting parallel to "A Short Film about Killing").
>
>I haven't seen the long version of the Kieslowski film; instead I was
>compelled to compare SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE favorably to MYSTIC
>RIVER -- I think it's more inventive narratively and visually and it
>left me feeling more devastated without resorting to grandiose
>gestures (granted that the latter is defined in the eye of the
>beholder -- I still found Eastwood's film very powerful though not
>entirely persuasive)
>
>And speaking of filmmakers resorting to grandiose gestures...
>
> > I'd take him over that pompous exoticist Kim Ki-duk ("Spring,
>> Summer, Winter, etc.) any time.
>>
>> Dave Kehr
>
>As the Sikh people would say, "Bole sau nihal saat sri akaal"
>(translated: This is why you are DA MAN, Mr. Kehr!)
>
>Kevin
>
15787
From: Noel Vera
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:54am
Subject: Re: Lino Brocka
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin"
wrote:
> Did you know that Brocka started in the movies with Monte Hellman,
> when he was shooting some stuff for Corman in the Philippines
> (Flight to Fury)?
I've heard he worked for Hellman, but not what he said about it.
Glad to hear from someone non-Filipino actually familiar with the
man and his works.
> But some of his last
> features left me a strong impression. '90 Gumapang ka sa lusak
> (Dirty Affair). I remember the inexorable stronghold of the mise-
en-
> scene, which ends up swallowing the characters; this energy, which
> is not an empty word, but the tension in every single shot, full
of
> rage and heart.
One of his better made 'commercial films;' especially memorable was
the poison-pen caricature of Madame Imelda Marcos here. But when I
saw it lately, I realized it was a melodramatic (not that there's
anything wrong with that, per se) remake of "Bagong Hari" (The New
King), a film noir by his one time collaborator, Mario O'Hara, and
in my opinion one of the best Filipino examples of the genre. "Hari"
had particularly inventive action sequences, something Brocka was
always weak at.
> Was his last work, '91 Kislap sa dilim, actually finished? Not
much
> info on IMDB.
That was finished (and to be honest, it's not very good); he even
did one more film, "Makiusap sa Diyos" (Speak to God For Me, 1991),
about a nun who is raped and struggles with her lost faith in God.
Again melodrama, but by an interesting writer, Ms. Racquel
Villavicencio, whose scripts show a tension between female sexuality
and an obsession with spiritual searching.
>Just bought on the net Fight For Us and Matcho Dancer
> (only available DVD).
"Orapronobis" (Fight for Us, 1989) was his last really good
political film, a condemnation of the Aquino administration that
succeed the Marcos regime (it still hasn't been commercially shown
in Manila), and I think ranks with his first-rate work. "Macho
Dancer" is perhaps second tier but still tells its story well, with
Brocka's inimitable sense of urgency. Both can be rented from Facets
video.
Could you possibly tell us where you got your copy?
15788
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:55am
Subject: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
>But boy, are those Mr Show DVDs worth
> renting.
>
How about "Coupon: the Movie"?
Speaking of those DVDs, the fourth (and final) season was just
released Tuesday. I've yet to pick it up, but from what I remember of
its original initial airings, it's a much stronger season than 3.
Like the previous sets, there's commentary on every episode - usually
just as hilarious as the shows themselves.
-Aaron
15789
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
> Speaking of those DVDs, the fourth (and final) season was just
> released Tuesday. I've yet to pick it up, but from what I remember of
> its original initial airings, it's a much stronger season than 3.
> Like the previous sets, there's commentary on every episode - usually
> just as hilarious as the shows themselves.
Like 'The Larry Sanders Show,' the seasons got better as they went
along, with 4 being the greatest -- and the greatest sketch the epic
"Dougie the Dalai Lama / Fat Kids' Camp / Rap-Off" piece. I don't
think that was in the last-ever episode, but it was one of the last --
and still counts as a great way to go out. I watched Season 1 again
yesterday (and did you see David Cross actually mount the stage for a
Best Comedy Series Emmy -- who would have ever thunk it? -- of course,
his is a small role on 'Arrested Development'), and had forgotten how
strong and well-paced the very first two episodes were -- the second
two episodes much less so. I'm still waiting for the complete 'Larry
Sanders' to come out on DVD -- there are obviously some heinous rights
issues around that release. The final episode of that series was
simply dazzling, and probably the best episode across all the series'
seasons -- how often can one say that?
I'd love for a release of 'It's Garry Shandling's Show,' to set next to
my 'Get a Life' episodes and 'Breakfast with Blassie.' (Waiting for a
release of 'Uncle Andy's Funhouse,' needless to say -- radical, radical
stuff.)
Has anyone here seen 'Melvin Goes to Dinner' yet? Or the Jiminy Glick
movie at Toronto (which apparently includes narration by David Lynch)?
craig.
15790
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:30am
Subject: Re: Ronwell Dobbs
> Has anyone here seen 'Melvin Goes to Dinner' yet? Or the Jiminy
Glick
> movie at Toronto (which apparently includes narration by David
Lynch)?
>
> craig.
There's a fantastic short film that's on the 'Melvin Goes to Dinner'
dvd, 'The Frank International Film Festival', also directed by
Odenkirk. The joke is that the cast & crew of 'Melvin' are asked to
attend a festival which is held by only one man, played by Fred
Armisen (the Frank of the title), and it's held in his basement.
There's a 'career retrospective' of Mike White, who makes a brief
appearance. It's hilarious, send-up stuff more akin to "Mr Show"
than 'Melvin'.
Lynch narrating a Jiminy Glick movie? I'm there!
-Aaron
15791
From: Hadrian
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:50am
Subject: Licensing From Studios
I know many of you are often asking, why isn't this or that title
available on video/DVD? Well, some friends and I are going to try and take
the CineFile Video spirit, and apply it to a CineFile label. For those of
you who are unfamiliar with us, we're a specialty video store in Los
Angeles that has a strong emphasis on the hard-to-find, the missing canon
titles, the never-released, the imported, the underappreciated cult films,
etc.
As it is, we could take the tact of other smaller labels like Fantoma or
Plexifilm and restrict ourselves to films outside the studio system --and
there are definitely some cool things we could do in that regard. These
titles seem easier to license since you're generally dealing with either
another small company or an individual. All you have to do is track them
down.
However, a lot of titles we're really interested in (and you probably are
too) are studio films. There are all kinds of great unreleased auteur
films by Hawks, Ray, Wilder, etc, as well as great forgotten
B-movies/Exploitation films that were absorbed by big studios we'd love to
release (MGM absorbed American International, New World, etc). I know
independent companies sometimes liscense films from studios --Criterion
and Anchor Bay leap to mind-- but i'm not sure how.
So I guess I'm asking for two kinds of help:
1) We have a long list of titles we think would make great releases, but
any suggestions are welcome.
2) any advice you may have on how to contact the studios about licensing.
IF you don't want to clog the board feel free to email me at
"hadrian@c..."
I hope you don't mind me using the board for help/advice/contacts, but i
think this query is at least tangentally related to the spirit of the
board.
regards,
Hadrian
15792
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:56am
Subject: Re: Philippine cinema
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Alexis Tioseco
wrote:
> As always when encountering foreign cinephiles, I feel
> compelled to pop the question:
>
> What is your impression of Philippine Cinema (both new
> and old)?
>
> What Filipino films have you seen? What Filipino
> filmmakers names appear in your head like light bulbs
> in cartoons when you think of the Philippines?
>
> Looking forward to hearing from everyone on a_film_by
> on the matter.
My beloved is Filipino so I know quite a bit about the history of
the Philippines and Filipino culture. Unfortunately, I haven't seen
many Filipino films, and when he rents them, they almost never have
subtitles. Back in 1998, the Walter Reade a festival of Filipino
films.
I saw just a handful, including Manuel Silos's Blessings Of The Land
which is so primitive and absurdly melodramatic in its portrayal of
the hardships of a farming family – and its tragic oxen --as to be
endearing. My mother-in-law tells me it was a huge success back in
1959, and that for general audiences, the more maudlin the
better.
Made thirty-five years later. Mario O'Hara's Fatima Buen Story, is
even more melodramatic. In fact, it's so extreme that one has to
assume the hyper-stylization is purposeful, even if it's not clear to
what purpose. The symbolism is heavy-handed but the film is highly
entertaining even if seems to be an almost folkloric tale that
serves no other purpose other than its own melodrama.
Jose Javier Reyes's Phil-American Boy starts well as a comedy of
Filipino mores which captures the nuance of the culture well. But it
deteriorates to stock melodrama, the stuff of TV movies and ends up
pretty simple-minded.
But then there are the two Lino Brocka films I saw, which are just
superb: You Have Been Weighed And Found Wanting and Mother, Sister,
Daughter As a stylist who employs an acute visual sense and an
understanding of the emotional connotations of various inanimate
objects that populate his mise-en-scene, Brocka is the peer of Sirk
and Minnelli. He's as wittily ironic as the former, as emotionally
forthright as the latter.
I look forward to seeing more and more of his films (and those of
Mike De Leon, of whom I hear great things).
My beloved was involved in street theatre protests against Marcos in
the 80s – so much so that he had to leave the country – and through
the anti-Marcos movement, got to know Lino Brocka, who seems to have
been a truly beloved man.
By the way, for anyone wanting to start to understand Filipino
culture which definitely has its extremes, I recommend watching "Good
Morning, Kris" an Oprah-esque show starring Kris Aquino, which is
shown on some international channels in the States. . To put its
mildly, it is side show extreme. One episode was the damnedest thing
I've ever seen – it was showcasing extremely handicapped people, and
featured two young pinhead brothers, one of whom held tight onto his
penis the whole time because he had to pee. The hook for their
segment was "Boys Who Are Mistaken For Monkeys." There was also a
retarded boy who was about three feet tall who spent his entire
segment strumming a toy guitar.
On an altogether different intellectual level, I also recommend the
works of writer Jessica Hagedorn, including Dogeaters and Dream
Jungle, which is just out in paperback. She's a brilliant, witty and
sympathetic observer of the Philippines and particularly the
country's dysfunctional relationship with the United States.
15793
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:50am
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
> My favorite short: The High Sign.
I love that too. It's underrated compared to the more celebrated COPS
and ONE WEEK, which are probbaly the greatest achievements of
Keaton's short film career. THE GOAT is rather good too.
15794
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:55am
Subject: Re: Duvivier
> If Duvivier had done nothing else – not PÉPÉ LE MOKO, nor
> the rather underrated Hollywood films (especially LYDIA) – his
> reputation would still be assured by his quite fresh and heart-
> wrenching POIL DE CAROTTE
There's now a print of it circulating in the UK, which is an
imporvement on the previous situation, where I was only able to see a
fuzzy gray market tape from the States with illegible subtitling.
TALES OF MANHATTAN is majestic, btw. Have seen a clip of GOLGOTHA -
that and LE GOLEM are fascinating oddities in a career so varied it
may have contributed to Duvivier's underrating as an auteur.
The theme of memory in LYDIA is echoed in LA FIN DU JOUR, which is
about old age as well as acting, and is one of the finest films on
either subject. Memory haunts Michel Simon in PANIQUE and CARNET DU
BAL turns on a trick of memory.
15795
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:59am
Subject: Re: Duvivier
> To climb back on topic, Duvivier's musical THE GREAT WALTZ has some
> wild, throw-caution-to-the-winds camera moves in the title valse
> sequence (but that could be Von Sternberg's uncredited
contribution).
Looking at Duvivier's other work, I think they're more likely his.
Can't think of anything quite like the weird rear-projection dutch-
tilted waltz scenes in Sternberg OR Duvivier or anyone else, but they
feel closer to JD - he does "dynamic" a bit more than Sternberg!
Think I recall Sternberg saying nobody would ever spot his
contribution to the film, which he didn't seem particularly proud of.
But with JVS, who knows?
15796
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am
Subject: Re: Duvivier
> I've never had the chance to see CARNET DE BAL, but isn't LYDIA the
> American remake? (When you think about it, Merle Oberon isn't a bad
> equivalent for Arletty).
Although CARNET stars Marie Bell, not Arletty. Pity.
It has stunnign moments, and a great central premise, but isn't
overall a favourite Duvivier. There are two many episodes and most of
them don't amount to much dramatically. If LYDIA reprises the
structure it does so with fewer suitors, which would probably be an
improvement.
> Anyway, Korda-in-Hollywood certainly pulled
> out the stops with a memorably plush production, what with Lee
> Garmes' glamorously evocative camerawork and a swooningly romantic
> Miklos Rosza score.
Duvivier's plushness obviously works against his critical rep, and
the fact that he made many films that AREN'T glossy simply makes him
look inconsistent. And of course both the plushness and the variety
are big pluses in my book.
> We forgot to mention Duvivier's quite interesting Foreign Legion
> adventure LA BANDERA (though a misguided Annabella wears something
> very close to blackface as Jean Gabin's "native" cutie).
Yeah, but I'll forgive Annabella anything. Her father introduced the
Boy Scout movement to France, you know. (Stick with me, kids, it's
not much fun but it's educational.)
15797
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:13am
Subject: Re: Keaton (Was: Strictly silent)
> I agree on COLLEGE. It's a comparatively minor one and visually
> much inferior to the other silent features (except THREE AGES)so I
> don't think it's an effect of bad video cropping, at least not
only.
I do like the fight where Keaton throws everything at the bad guy. A
simple idea, very well done. But the blackface routine - oh dear.
Trivia - the credited director went on to be Vampira's father-in-law.
> I had read so many putdowns of SPITE MARRIAGE before finally
> seeing it (in a good 35 print in a theatre)that i was very
> pleasantly surprised to find it so good despite obvious weaknesses.
Oh yeah, it's good fun and there are some very nice sequences. The
fight at the end is genuinely thrilling - I stopped laughing but I
didn't mind.
15798
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 0:43pm
Subject: Re: Licensing From Studios
--- Hadrian wrote:
>
> 1) We have a long list of titles we think would make
> great releases, but
> any suggestions are welcome.
>
in terms of "fallen through the cracks" studio movies,
thanks to "boutique" companies Lorimar stands out for
two titles that I've always prized: "Second-Hand
Hearts" and "Mike's Murder."
Jack Larson has always hoped that a cut of the latter,
more in keeping with Bridges's ideas could be arrnaged
for home video. The film meant a lot to them -- and
Debra Winger.
"Dusty and Sweets McGee" is an early 70's stdio
release I've always wanted to see on home video. No
idea who has it.
Agnes Varda's "Lions Love" with Viva, James Rado and
Jerome Ragni, Shirley Clarke and Eddie Constantine has
always been a favorite of mine. No idea who has the
rights.
This is all just off the top of my head.
__________________________________
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15799
From:
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:11am
Subject: Keaton/Bunuel
What do people make of the piano pulling scene in ONE WEEK? I read somewhere
that it influenced Bunuel in the piano pullling scene in UN CHIEN ANDALOU.
Bullshit? Fun theory? Fact?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
15800
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:25pm
Subject: the nature of film festivals
We've discussed some of it a while back, but it will be the center
symposium at the Tokyo Filmex this year.
-------------
During the upcoming Tokyo Filmex, November 20 to 28, jury president
Tony Rayns will host a symposium on international film festivals,
discussing the realities of international film festivals; something
audiences vaguely seem to know about, but in actual fact, don't.
The panel members - Kitano Takeshi, Mori Masayuki, Kore-eda Hirokazu,
Tsukamoto Shinya and Simon Field - will discuss past festival
experiences, the psychology of filmmakers at festivals and the
importance of taking part, as well as disclosing behind-the-scenes
accounts, revealing their know-how in maximizing film festival
opportunities in order to reach box-office success both at home and
through international sales.
The symposium will be held November 23 at Yurakucho Asahi Hall. The
doors will open at 12:10 and the symposium will start at 12:30.
More info on the Tokyo Filmex site:
http://www.filmex.net/2004/event_sp-e.htm
Henrik
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