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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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It is possible to email the author of any post by finding a post
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emailing them from that Web site.
18101
From: George Robinson
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:57am
Subject: BBC NEWS | Business | Death of video recorder in sight
Apologies for cross-listing but I think you'll all find this of interest.
Sure glad I replaced my VCR last month.
g
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4031223.stm
18102
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Ozu as Critic (was: Late Spring)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> At the daughter's sick bed he *is* concerned for her recovery
> and displays the most emotion he's shown up to this point in
> the story, and at the end he lights the candle in front of the
> mortuary tablet and photo and recites the 49 day prayer. Ryu's
> performance didn't make it seem like a pro-forma gesture at all,
> in fact I found it very moving; too late, the father realizes his
> inadequacies as a parent.
I found the prayer scene devastating -- and thought, if only you paid
so much attention to her when she was _alive_.
Yes, I did feel the father was experiencing sorrow at this point --
but it was mis-timed and virtually meaningless at this point. And I
agree that he had some awareness of his inadequacy as a parent -- but
that this awareness did not change his behavior in any fashion. The
clincher for me is his clear sense of cheerful relief at the end --
once he had shipped Hara (and grandchild) back to a husband that he
knew was abusive and uncaring. Only with both daughters out of his
hair can he relax -- and get to business reading the reports no one
else bothers with at work (and playing pachinko during his
over-lengthy work breaks). (The fact that the secretaries make fun of
him behind his back is really a shocking event for an Ozu film -- I
thought).
> It is indeed his most anti-patriarchal film. The self-centered
> scholar husband and the callous college boy are two of the most
> unsympathetic charcters in Ozu. But Ozu does seem to have some
> guarded sympathy for the father.
These characters would be unnerving even in a Naruse film. ;~}
My sense is that Ozu is actually angrier at the father than at the
other two male miscreants. Being the fair observer he is, he can't
avoid giving his lead character some traces of redeeming
characteristics. All in all -- "Tokyo Twilight" and "Early Spring"
strike me as the angriest films Ozu ever made -- much more so than any
of the social films of the 30s -- where social criticism is mixed with
a sense of sadness rather than outright anger (viz. "Tokyo Inn" and
even more so "Only Son"). What made him so angry? I would note the
especially long break between "Tokyo Story" and "Early Spring" -- and
the fact that a good part of the time was spent on the fight over
Tanaka's directorial career (specifically, her ability to make her
second film, the one using Ozu's script). But was his anger related
to this more personal issue -- or to a broader sense that Japan's
adult men had, in general, betrayed its young people? I would bet
mainly on the latter -- as most of his remaining films would hammer
the men of his generation -- with devastating but (very funny) humor.
> I don't think that, in the final analysis, Ozu was a social
> conservative. I think that in his post-war pictures Ozu was
> re-inventing the shomin geki genre that he inherited in the
> early '30s as the now familiar home drama.
Re-inventing along with Naruse. ;~}
In intensively exploring as much as I could of late Naruse lately, I
was surprised at the extent of the inter-connection between the themes
(and characters) of the two men's films.
Michael Kerpan
Boston
18103
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:23pm
Subject: Re: A Very Long Engagement (Un Longue Dimanche De Fiancailles)
--- Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
>
> I wonder is there is a place for a HOMAGE theory in
> film?
>
Yes. A rather small place for the most part. In early
Godard references of arious kinds are made to American
films he admired. In Taraantino reference becomes a
fetish -- particularly in "Kill Bill."
By contrast Jean-Pierre Melville and Sergio Leone do
not "reference" the gangster film and western but make
an active contribution to the genre.
> on a slight tangent:
> Recently after seeing RAY and BEYOND the SEA, I
> wondered why not just
> show the real footage of these performers.
>
>
Because American culture is obsessed with the simalcra
-- as both Eco and Baudrillard have been at pains to explain.
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18104
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:31pm
Subject: Re: A Very Long Engagement (Un Longue Dimanche De Fiancailles)
> From: Elizabeth Nolan
>Subject:
>
>on a slight tangent:
>Recently after seeing RAY and BEYOND the SEA, I wondered why not just
>show the real footage of these performers.
But... but then how would we know who to give awards to? Surely
mimicry is the highest form of art.
As predictable as it is (and nothing could be more so), I still
manage to find it endlessly depressing how many viewers and critics
fall for these stunt performances. Of course, if you ask why the
performance, then you have to ask why the movie, even why the genre
-- why do we need a movie about Ray Charles when audio and video
recordings are so readily available? I enjoyed the performance scenes
in RAY, but only because it was an excuse to sit and listen to Ray
Charles songs. Kevin Spacey singing Bobby Darin, I think not. The
praise seems to come from a thoroughly wrong-headed appreciation of
acting as imitation, rather than being -- is there any chance anyone,
even for a second, forgets they're watching
Jamie-Foxx-as-Ray-Charles? Are they even supposed to? (Foxx was much
better in COLLATERAL, where he created a thoroughly believable
character of a type not often seen in movies.)
So if I may ask the question -- why the genre? Are any of the great
movies biopics, or is it just a middlebrow wasteland? Only one that
leaps to mind as being truly great is Peter Watkins' EDVARD MUNCH,
which is pretty much non-genre, as much criticism as drama. But I
won't pretend to be any kind of an expert.
Sam
18105
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:57pm
Subject: Re: A Very Long Engagement (Un Longue Dimanche De Fiancailles)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:
>> As predictable as it is (and nothing could be more so), I still
> manage to find it endlessly depressing how many viewers and
critics
> fall for these stunt performances.
It could be argued that the most beloved and praised (both by
audiences and critics)performances are stunt performances. The stunt
performance is pervasive even outside of the biopic genre, coming in
various but related kinds: the "against-type" performance (glamorous
star plays "plain" woman, or a nun, etc...); the handicapped
character (blind, mute, crippled...); the mentally disturbed
character; the alcoholic; the deadly disease victim etc... Check out
how many of the above resulted in Oscar winnings...
> So if I may ask the question -- why the genre? Are any of the
great
> movies biopics, or is it just a middlebrow wasteland? Only one
that
> leaps to mind as being truly great is Peter Watkins' EDVARD MUNCH,
> which is pretty much non-genre, as much criticism as drama. But I
> won't pretend to be any kind of an expert.
>
Well, is Ford's "Young Mr Lincoln" middlebrow wasteland?
is "Raging Bull"? Is Pialat's "Van Gogh"? (or, for that matter,
Minnelli's?) I don't think so.
JPC
18106
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:43pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
<>
Because those recordings offer only one KIND of truth or reality to which there is never any direct pipeline.
And as usual, J-P beat me to the punch. But off the top of my head, there's also Griffith's ABRAHAM LINCOLN and shakier cases like PRIMARY COLORS and INSERTS. None of the above fill up a middlebrow wasteland to me. Not even sure what brow INSERTS is. Furrowed?
Kevin John
18107
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:44pm
Subject: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
It has always shocked my French eyesight to see the way Americans
spell French film titles the anglo-american way, with the first
letter of every word (except articles and such) capitalized. The
French system is very different (and more complicated). We
capitalize only the first word of the title (and of course proper
names of people, places etc). If the title begins with a definite
article ("le", "la" or "les" -- which would be "the" in all three
cases in English)it is of course capitalized as well as the word it
introduces: "Le Carrosse d'or", "La Bataille du rail". Same rule for
an indefinite article ("un" "une" "des")except that if it's followed
by an adjective rather than a noun the adjective is usually NOT
capitalized (then again sometimes it is...)
Anyway, it should be: "Le Journal d'un cure de campagne"; L'Amour
c'est gai, l'amour c'est triste"; "Elle a passe tant d'heures sous
les sunlights." Etc...
Jeunet's film which Elizabeth brought up should be: "Un long
dimanche de fiancailles".
By the way it's interesting that this big budget (35 millions of
Euros -- a LOT for a French film) auteur film was largely
bankrolled by Warner, which created a "French" company, "2003
productions", to produce it. Warner France is supposed to reinvest
the profits in other French productions.
JPC
18108
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:54pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
, there's also Griffith's ABRAHAM LINCOLN and shakier cases like
PRIMARY COLORS and INSERTS. None of the above fill up a middlebrow
wasteland to me. Not even sure what brow INSERTS is. Furrowed?
>
> Kevin John
Glad you mentionned INSERTS, Kevin -- one of the greatest films of
the seventies and one of the most underrated (I wish I could get a
video of it; is it at all available?) But does it qualify
as "biopic"?
What about "Boogie Nights"? (I'm a PTA fan!)
JPC
18109
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:57pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
I guess Park Kwang-su "A Single Spark" (Jeon Tae-il) is a biopic of
sorts. Half of it is the true story of a labor martyr (shown in black
and white) and half is the fictional story of his would-be biographer,
being hounded by police because he and his wife are too radical in
their own right (shot in color). However on classifies it, I'd call
it a masterpiece.
Mikio Naruse's "Horoki" (Wanderer's Notebook or Her Lonely Road), a
film based on the autobiography of writer Fumiko Hayashi (recounting
her early life and struggles), is probably the best "straight" film
biography I've seen.
One of the worst is Kon Ichikawa's sleazy "Eiga joyu" (Film Actress),
which did a real number on Kinuyo Tanaka (thanks largely I suspect to
Kaneto Shindo, who was largely responsible for the script).
MEK
18110
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Torino
Bill,
Actually the first film with Helena is The Red Light Bandit, in which she
plays the not-so-small role of Janete Jane. Then she's the star of A Mulher
de Todos (which indeed was a hit, mostly in the popular parts of Sao Paulo,
but no immediate cult film or a critic's choice -- except for some).
Copacabana Mon Amour and Sem Essa, Aranha (No Way, Spider), together with
the almost completely lost Carnaval de Lama, are Sganzerla's three Belair
films, a producing company he created with Julio Bressane to make films that
were fast to produce, improvised and, in a certain way, kinda jazzy (in the
"free" style).
I've written some words, some small capsules, for each of his feature films
on the retro for the catalogue, but I don't know if they made it on time for
the english copydesk and for the italian translation. I can send them for
whoever's interested, but you'll have to excuse the maladroit english...
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 1:22 PM
Subject: Re:[a_film_by] Torino
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
> wrote:
> Did you saw the Belair
> > films (Sem Essa Aranha and Copacabana
> > Mon Amour)? How the festival audience
> > reacts to theretrospective? I hope it
> > was success.
> Copacabana si - an amazing film, more radical than the first film
> with Elena, La mulher di tudo (sp?) (no relation) which I gather was
> a hit in Brazil. The films have been very well received at Torino -
> all screenings packed and appreciative. Rogerio had invented his own
> blend of art cinema and B-movie raunch which is very much at home in
> Torino, where audiences go from the minimalism of Jean-Claude
> Rousseau to the maximalism of John Landis without a hitch. Also, the
> carnivalesque populism of the Sganzerlas resonates very well with
> Italian audiences. It has been a huge success. And Copacabana has
> been one of my favorite discoveries. I saw it and Mulher di todo
> with Christa Fuller, who observed affinities with Sam's films,
> particularly the post-72 ones. She was very impressed, and has
> already been offered a part in Elena's first film as director, based
> on a script by Rogerio: a sequel to Red Light Bandit to be made next
> year and, hopefully, premiered at Torino. Now we have to spread the
> word about Rogerio in the States.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
18111
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:11pm
Subject: Re: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
>It has always shocked my French eyesight to see the way Americans
>spell French film titles the anglo-american way, with the first
>letter of every word (except articles and such) capitalized. The
>French system is very different (and more complicated). We
>capitalize only the first word of the title (and of course proper
>names of people, places etc). If the title begins with a definite
>article ("le", "la" or "les" -- which would be "the" in all three
>cases in English)it is of course capitalized as well as the word it
>introduces: "Le Carrosse d'or", "La Bataille du rail". Same rule for
>an indefinite article ("un" "une" "des")except that if it's followed
>by an adjective rather than a noun the adjective is usually NOT
>capitalized (then again sometimes it is...)
>
>Anyway, it should be: "Le Journal d'un cure de campagne"; L'Amour
>c'est gai, l'amour c'est triste"; "Elle a passe tant d'heures sous
>les sunlights." Etc...
Nice post, Jean-Pierre. It might also do to note that for French titles beginning with an "un"/"une"/"du"/"de la"/"des"/etc., the word directly succeeding the article or preposition, whether noun, adjective, or not, should not be capitalized -- e.g., 'Un chien andalou,' 'Un flic,' 'Une femme mariée' -- correct?
Keeping in mind, of course, that often the author of a work will take liberty to capitalize the first letters of all the words in the title. For example, 'Secret Défense' (as it appears on the title card).
Incidentally, if a title has no article, but follows the formula noun - adjective, with nothing following, should both words be capitalized as a matter of course? (Thus making Rivette's title not only a stylistic flourish?)
And, frequently, one will come across a French publication taking the editorial tack of not capitalizing any of the words after the initial word in the title.
Per Jean-Pierre's and David's recommendations, I am now reading Blanchot's 'L'Attente l'oubli,' albeit in translation -- c'est encore très, très beau.
craig.
18112
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Glad you mentionned INSERTS, Kevin -- one of the
> greatest films of
> the seventies and one of the most underrated (I wish
> I could get a
> video of it; is it at all available?) But does it
> qualify
> as "biopic"?
>
I'm a big "Inserts" fan too.I'd say it's
biopic-related as there's constant discussion of
Wallace Reid.
> What about "Boogie Nights"? (I'm a PTA fan!)
>
That's partially a "film a clef" about John Holmes.
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18113
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:15pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
Ford's LONG GRAY LINE; Stanley Kwan's ACTRESS; LOLA MONTES; UTAMARO AND HIS FIVE WOMEN; anyone for GLENN MILLER STORY?
18114
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:21pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
>
> Ford's LONG GRAY LINE; Stanley Kwan's ACTRESS; LOLA MONTES; UTAMARO
AND HIS FIVE WOMEN; anyone for GLENN MILLER STORY?
Isn't "Utamaro" a frankly fictional film -- albeit based on a real
historical person?
I hope to see "Actress" before the year is done.
I guess Rivette's "Joan the Maid" might fall in the biopic genre, if
so, I should have offered someplaudits for it.
MEK
18115
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:25pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
<< Glad you mentionned INSERTS, Kevin -- one of the greatest films of the seventies and one of the most underrated (I wish I could get a video of it; is it at all available?) But does it qualify as "biopic"? >>
Yes, it's available on video. Email me your address offlist and I'll send you a copy.
Well, I hear it's based on either Ed Wood or Tod Browning so...
Wow, one of the greatest of the seventies, eh? I'll definitely have to watch it again after such a pronouncement, though. I found it a bit arch in the WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOLF? vein (my vote for the archest film of all-time). But I admired its patience-stretching chit-chat and the tension between the plan Americain "watching a play unfold" style and the story of getting an insert filmed. Leonard Maltin gave it BOMB, often a sign that a masterpiece lurks within (e.g. SOME CALL IT LOVING).
Kevin John
18116
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
> And as usual, J-P beat me to the punch. But off the top of my head,
> there's also Griffith's ABRAHAM LINCOLN and shakier cases like PRIMARY
> COLORS and INSERTS. None of the above fill up a middlebrow wasteland to
> me. Not even sure what brow INSERTS is. Furrowed?
Another INSERTS fan here, though I never dreamed it was autobiographical.
When I try to think of good biopics, Alexander Korda's REMBRANDT is always
the first that leaps to mind. - Dan
18117
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:39pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
"Yes, it's available on video."
The old UK video of INSERTS is missing the pre-credits sequence. Is
this in the American release? It's included whenever the film turns
up on cable.
John Byrum has had an interesting career. THE RAZOR'S EDGE is very
underrated, but THE WHOOPEE BOYS is perhaps the worst film ever to be
directed by a filmmaker of proven talent. Byrum also directed a
wonderful episode of the revived ALFRED HITCHCOCK PRESENTS (starring
his then-wife Linda Fiorentino), and wrote another episode that was a
kind of variation on Larry Cohen's BONE (with Yaphet Kotto playing
the same part he played in the original).
18118
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:48pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
> Isn't "Utamaro" a frankly fictional film -- albeit based on a real
> historical person?
I'd probably be on safer ground in substituting "Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach."
18119
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:03pm
Subject: Re: UNDERTOW
>> I like Green, but something about his "poetry" is limiting for me, despite
>> its cinematic appeal. I always feel as if the films fail to find a unity
>> to replace the conventional dramatic-thematic unity that Green floats
>> free from. - Dan
>>
> Dan, I agree with you 100%. A species of what you're saying kept ALL THE
> REAL GIRLS hovering just outside of my top ten list last year. But I'm
> not a "unity" kind of guy. At least not all the time. I embrace the
> ineffable, the unsumupable. Sometimes that leaves me with not much to
> say about a film. But loose ends tied up can get oppressive at times,
> no?
Yeah, I'm not really a stickler for unity. I'm having trouble
articulating my reservations about Green. It's as if his style dissolves
some aspect of movie-ness, and doesn't replace it with anything. So that
I have a good reaction to most moments in the films, but don't feel
satisfied when I contemplate any of the films as a whole.
Or, perhaps: I want him to treat what he's doing as a means, to put it in
the service of something. But he's treating it as an end. - Dan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
18120
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- thebradstevens wrote:
THE
> RAZOR'S EDGE is very
> underrated,
Recently I've been working on a piece about
Christopher Isherwood -- who was the direct
inspiration for "The Razor's Edge."
Maugham wrote a screenplay for the film, which Cukor
wanted to direct. But the project got away from both
of them and Lamar Trotti penned one for Goulding to
direct Tyrone Power.
Never did find out what Isherwood thought of Ty Power
but I do know he was gentleman who preferred blondes.
(While he had very mixed feelings about "Cabaret" he
was delighted with Michael York who sported the broken
nose Isherwood so adored in his German boyfriends.)
Fox still owns Maugham's script. When the Byrum/Murray
project was anounced they were informed of its
existence but NEVER EVEN SO MUCH AS LOOKED AT IT!
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18121
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:13pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
"Isn't 'Utamaro' a frankly fictional film -- albeit based on a real
historical person?
"I'd probably be on safer ground in substituting 'Chronicle of Anna
Magdalena Bach.'"
The novel on which UTAMARO was based was largely fictional, a bawdy
SHKESPEARE IN LOVE-like story. Mizoguchi and Yoda refashioned the
story and included the know facts pf Utamaro's house arrest and
relations with his publishers. Kumieda who wrote the novel didn't
like the film. I always thought UTAMARO a disguised autobiography of
Mizoguchi's womanizing youth.
Richard
18122
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:15pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
<>
SPOILERS
Do you mean the sequence where a group of people are watching the porn film Dreyfuss made? If so, yes, it's included.
Kevin John
18123
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:17pm
Subject: Isherwood (Was: Biopics)
> Recently I've been working on a piece about
> Christopher Isherwood -- who was the direct
> inspiration for "The Razor's Edge."
I just read PRATER VIOLET, which is a pretty nice piece of writing. Has
anyone ever seen the 1933 British film LITTLE SISTER, which inspired the
novella?
Isherwood was one serious film buff, at least in his later years. It was
hard to avoid him on the LA film circuit in the 80s. - Dan
18124
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:19pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
"Maugham wrote a screenplay for the film, which Cukor
wanted to direct. But the project got away from both
of them and Lamar Trotti penned one for Goulding to
direct Tyrone Power."
Didn't Isherwood himself and Aldous Huxley also work on an
adaptation? I know they co-wrote a screenplay on a similar theme.
Richard
18125
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:27pm
Subject: MoMAnts choisis
I saw two masterpieces yesterday at the re-opening of the on-site MoMA Film -- (the new Taniguchi spaces are quite impressive) -- 'Five' by Kiarostami, and 'Moments choisis des Histoire(s) du cinéma' by Godard. As loath as English-language critics have been to write about the former outside of the typical cursory festival-overview paragraph, the picture is an aesthetic knock-out (probably mals mots on my part considering it's one of the most serene films ever made) which climaxes twice -- first in the third take (the transcendent culmination of the two preceding takes), and again at the end, whereby the film itself, and somehow all of auteur cinema, is culminated. After one viewing, I rate 'Five' with 'Close-Up,' 'Taste of Cherry,' and 'The Wind Will Carry Us...' .
Those not in attendance might be interested to know that Kiarostami sent along a message relayed by Mary Lea Bandy to the audience before the film (video). After contemplating the lukewarm reception that 'Five' received at Cannes, he came to the conclusion that the work couldn't be as bad as audience and critical reaction would reflect, so he's decided that with regard to that particular festival and screening, to place the blame squarely on the spectators. Upon hearing that MoMA wanted to show the work as part of its re-opening "Premieres" series (Bandy spoke about how she and her colleagues were very taken with 'Five' at Cannes), he felt that perhaps here would be the spectators that would best appreciate his film, and if we didn't like it, then perhaps it's truly a bad piece of work after all. He then noted that if any of us found ourselves falling asleep during the course of the film, we shouldn't necessarily take this to mean we're watching a bad film, as this reaction was anticipated while he was shooting and editing, and should be understood as a completely normal reaction to some of the takes.
(I would add that I found it riveting from beginning to end -- in its own way, it has more action and suspense than 'The Incredibles' and 'Bullitt' combined.)
As for the Godard, I'm almost tempted to bestow "supreme masterpiece" on this 80-odd-minute reformulation of the longer work (a 'Spectre' to its predecessor's 'Noli me tangère'). Long tracts from the previous work recur, but have been "remixed," with the soundtrack fragments "recadenced," as it were (significantly, the film begins with a piece of the Daney interview from 2A) -- new footage also crops up, along with long swathes of new narration, notably including a beautiful meditation on Cézanne; a more overt and caustic critique of American (Hollywood) cinema than had appeared in the ur-series; a (rather stirring and even moving) semi-explicit declaration on the role in the cinema and the world of his own later and recent work, in which he declares himself "an enemy of the state"; and what seemed to me, in a remark about the genesis of Selznick's idea for 'Bird of Paradise' (the notion that there be a film in which Dolores Del Rio gets thrown into a volcano), quite possibly an implicit nod to our own Jonathan Rosenbaum's 'Moving Places'! (Although the bulk of JR's 'Bird of Paradise' segment of course rhapsodizes the Daves version.) Anyway, following an extended appreciation of Emily Dickinson, Arthur Rimbaud, Maurice Blanchot, et al, the film ends as the video ended, with the appropriation of Borges and the dream, waking up with the flower in his hands, and Godard's substitution of: "J'étais cet homme." It is of course as complex, baffling, poignant, and powerful as ever, but it is perhaps precisely because of the length of this new version (shorter than the whole of its predecessor, but significantly longer than any of the last six episodes) that it seems even greater than any one of the single episodes (as great as they were, their sum nearly inconceivable), and so much an unparalleled tour de force. The theater was packed, and the audience, many or maybe even most of whom couldn't have seen the original work (and maybe haven't even seen much post-'60s Godard), sat rapt, some visibly moved, the majority, at the climax, moved to applause.
(P.S. - It should come as no surprise that the aspect ratio was 1.33:1, and was projected correctly.)
craig.
18126
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:30pm
Subject: Re: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
>
> Nice post, Jean-Pierre. It might also do to note that for French
titles beginning with an "un"/"une"/"du"/"de la"/"des"/etc., the
word directly succeeding the article or preposition, whether noun,
adjective, or not, should not be capitalized -- e.g., 'Un chien
andalou,' 'Un flic,' 'Une femme mariée' -- correct?
>
Correct!
> Keeping in mind, of course, that often the author of a work will
take liberty to capitalize the first letters of all the words in the
title. For example, 'Secret Défense' (as it appears on the title
card).
>
Well, I can't think of exemples of such titles with more than two
words in them.
> Incidentally, if a title has no article, but follows the formula
noun - adjective, with nothing following, should both words be
capitalized as a matter of course? (Thus making Rivette's title not
only a stylistic flourish?)
>
Not as a matter of course, I'm afraid. there are grey areas in
these matters, as there are in French punctuation, use of quotation
marks etc... Famed French "logic' does not really apply in such
cases...
> And, frequently, one will come across a French publication taking
the editorial tack of not capitalizing any of the words after the
initial word in the title.
Exactly. it's anything goes, more or less. And I can't blame
anybody who find it all confusing -- I'm French and I do. But my
point was simply that you shouldn't routinely capitalize all the
words in French titles -- the longer they are the more annoying it
becomes to the reader.
> Per Jean-Pierre's and David's recommendations, I am now reading
Blanchot's 'L'Attente l'oubli,' albeit in translation -- c'est
encore très, très beau.
WOW! Didn't know it was translated! What a challenge! Glad to
know you enjoy one of my favorite modern "texts" (what else to call
it?)
JPC
> craig.
18127
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Isherwood (Was: Biopics)
"Isherwood was one serious film buff, at least in his later years.
It was hard to avoid him on the LA film circuit in the 80s."
He was a good friend of Monte Hellman. When Monte was having some
legal trouble in the mid-80s, Isherwood climbed out of a sick bed and
drove to Monte's house (about 20 miles from where he lived, in Santa
Monica) in order to give him a check.
18128
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:47pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
"Do you mean the sequence where a group of people are watching the
porn film Dreyfuss made?"
That's it.
18129
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:05pm
Subject: Re: Isherwood (Was: Biopics)
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> I just read PRATER VIOLET, which is a pretty nice
> piece of writing.
More than that, it has some really insightful things
to say about the way films actually work.
Has
> anyone ever seen the 1933 British film LITTLE
> SISTER, which inspired the
> novella?
>
No, but I was talking about it with Jack Larson the
other day who has. He says it's rather nice.
> Isherwood was one serious film buff, at least in his
> later years. It was
> hard to avoid him on the LA film circuit in the 80s.
Especially at LACMA. He and Don always sat down in
front. He guggled quite a lot and me and my friends
always had our earspeeled when he whisperedsomething
or other to Don while watching and MGM movie fromthe
period when he was working there.
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18130
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
> Didn't Isherwood himself and Aldous Huxley also work
> on an
> adaptation? I know they co-wrote a screenplay on a
> similar theme.
>
There was a book that they worked on that recently has
been published. It wasn't Maugham-related at all.
Gavin Lambert says it's below par for both of them.
Sharon Stine recently made some noise about
it,threatenting to turn it into a movie, but that was
just blather on her part.
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18131
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:13pm
Subject: Lizzie Borden?
Does anyone know what Lizzie Borden (of BORNS IN FLAMES fame) is up to lately? The IMDb stops her at 1994 with EROTIQUE.
Kevin John
18132
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:27pm
Subject: Re: MoMAnts choisis
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> the picture is an aesthetic knock-out (probably mals mots on my part considering it's one of the most serene films ever made) which climaxes twice -- first in the third take (the transcendent culmination of the two preceding takes), and again at the end, whereby the film itself, and somehow all of auteur cinema, is culminated.
Did yesterday's Times make the rounds at MoMA? Godard deigned to speak to an Amerikan, Manohla Dargis, at Cannes, telling her that "Americans don't have critics. For me, there are only two, James Agee and Manny Farber." Some may recall that he has stated otherwise elsewhere!
He also informed her that "During the New Wave, [...] what we were interested in was this word politique. [...] What ended up enduring is the word auteur." That, as it turns out, is actually the beginning of his extended critique of Kiarostami, who has "lost his way [...] the light that is his intelligence comes before everything." I'd like to quote the rest of this, which seems to ask for more elucidation than Dargis could provide, but I'm trying not to exceed "fair use" so I'll just leave you with the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/movies/21darg.html?oref=login
Does the subway still rumble beneath Titus I?
18133
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: MoMAnts choisis
--- jess_l_amortell wrote:
> Godard deigned to speak to an Amerikan, Manohla
> Dargis,
Well of course he deigned to speak to Manohla. She's
presicely the kind of girl he'd cast in one of his
movies. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he
makes her an offer.
Of coruse Warren Beatty made an offer too, and
Manohlas was NOT impressed.
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18134
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:47pm
Subject: Re: Lizzie Borden?
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Does anyone know what Lizzie Borden (of BORNS IN
> FLAMES fame) is up to lately? The IMDb stops her at
> 1994 with EROTIQUE.
>
Wondering about her myself. She was profiled in my
book "Film: The Front Line -- 1984" But that's when it
looked as if her career was going along an Yvonne
Rainer-like trajectory.
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18135
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Lizzie Borden?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Does anyone know what Lizzie Borden (of BORNS IN FLAMES fame) is up
to lately? The IMDb stops her at 1994 with EROTIQUE.
She directed an episode of Zalman King's excellent RED SHOES DIARIES
series in 1995 (her segment was entitled JUAREZ).
By the way, my appearance in a recent documentary about Abel Ferrara
means that I now have my own page on the IMDB. Fame at last! See:
http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0828282/
According to the IMDB, I also produced a film called END OF THE ROAD
in 1997. Curiously, I have no memory of this. But if it's on the
IMDB, it must be correct.
18136
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Lizzie Borden?
Borden wrote an article about RAGING BULL for the February 1995 issue
of SIGHT AND SOUND.
18137
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:44pm
Subject: Re: MoMAnts choisis
Although I wouldn't rank it quite as highly as you, I'm pleased to
find that FIVE is finally getting some long-overdue recognition. (To
me, it's more interesting as well as accomplished than 10 in some
respects, and the final segment is truly remarkable.) Up until now,
though, it's either been rumber-stamped rather mechanically by French
Kiarostami buffs who don't have much to say or dismissed even more
superficially by a few provincial New York gatekeepers (one of whom
informed us, hilariously, that Michael Snow and Ernie Gehr needn't
have to lose any sleep--thereby implying that Snow and Gehr are as
competitive and as turf-obsessed as this reviewer). Of course, to
assume that Kiarostami is trying to do the same thing as either of
those guys is almost tantamount to refusing to allow upstarts like
Kiarostami to make nonnnarrative works of any kind. Gossipy footnote:
FIVE was shot while Kiarostami was staying at Jafar Pahni's house on
the Caspian Sea and scripting CRIMSON GOLD.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> I saw two masterpieces yesterday at the re-opening of the on-site
MoMA Film -- (the new Taniguchi spaces are quite impressive) --
'Five' by Kiarostami, and 'Moments choisis des Histoire(s) du
cinéma' by Godard. As loath as English-language critics have been to
write about the former outside of the typical cursory festival-
overview paragraph, the picture is an aesthetic knock-out (probably
mals mots on my part considering it's one of the most serene films
ever made) which climaxes twice -- first in the third take (the
transcendent culmination of the two preceding takes), and again at
the end, whereby the film itself, and somehow all of auteur cinema,
is culminated. After one viewing, I rate 'Five' with 'Close-
Up,' 'Taste of Cherry,' and 'The Wind Will Carry Us...' .
>
>
> (I would add that I found it riveting from beginning to end -- in
its own way, it has more action and suspense than 'The Incredibles'
and 'Bullitt' combined.)
18138
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: MoMAnts choisis
> Did yesterday's Times make the rounds at MoMA? Godard deigned to
> speak to an Amerikan, Manohla Dargis, at Cannes, telling her that
> "Americans don't have critics. For me, there are only two, James Agee
> and Manny Farber." Some may recall that he has stated otherwise
> elsewhere!
Yes. He was obviously twisting Dargis's knickers -- and her
"drastic...edits" render much of that interview (most specifically the
part about "America") unintelligible.
> Does the subway still rumble beneath Titus I?
You betcha! It added a whole new layer of ambient sound every 12
minutes during 'Five.'
craig.
18139
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:01am
Subject: Re: Re: Lizzie Borden?
Her disappearance is genuinely sad. I interviewed her way back when Born
in Flames opened (seems like a lifetime ago). I recall her being
charming and bright and a damned good interview. ( Wasn't that crazy
about Born in Flames, which I thought was a mess back then. Haven't seen
it since and it doesn't get shown anywhere.)
I love Working Girl, which is funny and smart. Thought her
quasi-mainstream move with Love Crimes was intelligent but unsuccessful.
And then she just vanished.
Really unfortunate.
And Brad, congrat on your 15Mbs of fame (Warhol was only partly right.)
But are you really SURE you didn't produce that film? It might have been
one of those parties, you had
a few too many drinks and when you woke up a few months later, the movie
was in the can and so were you.
George (I'd settle for $15K of fame) Robinson
thebradstevens wrote:
>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
>
>>Does anyone know what Lizzie Borden (of BORNS IN FLAMES fame) is up
>>
>>
>to lately? The IMDb stops her at 1994 with EROTIQUE.
>
>She directed an episode of Zalman King's excellent RED SHOES DIARIES
>series in 1995 (her segment was entitled JUAREZ).
>
>By the way, my appearance in a recent documentary about Abel Ferrara
>means that I now have my own page on the IMDB. Fame at last! See:
>
>http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0828282/
>
>According to the IMDB, I also produced a film called END OF THE ROAD
>in 1997. Curiously, I have no memory of this. But if it's on the
>IMDB, it must be correct.
>
>
>
18140
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:02am
Subject: A quick PS Re: Lizzie Borden?
Of course I meant Working Girls.
She might be many things, but nobody would ever mistake Lizzie Borden
for Mike Nichols.
g
18141
From: George Robinson
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:11am
Subject: Re: Re: MoMAnts choisis
Thank God!
Some things are too important to change.
Actually, Ira Hozinsky and I had the ultimate MoMA movie experience at
the very beginning of the construction.
We were at a press screening of Sokurov's Mother and Son in Titus 1 (I
think it was 1); the first forty rows of seats had already been removed
and we were the only ones in the theater. The construction crew was
audibly running pneumatic drills and (I suspect) occasionally blasting
all through the film. Sokurov would have been just delighted at seeing
his elegiac pastoral turned into a combination war movie and musique
concrete (in both senses of the latter word).
George (Drill louder, I can't hear you) Robinson
Craig Keller wrote:
>>Does the subway still rumble beneath Titus I?
>>
>>
>
>You betcha! It added a whole new layer of ambient sound every 12
>minutes during 'Five.'
>
>craig.
>
>
18142
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Isherwood (Was: Biopics) - a personal note
Am amazed to learn that Isherwood was the real life model for the hero of
"The Razor's Edge".
This was one of my father's favorite novels - he read it when it came out in
the 40's.
And when watching the film on TV in the 80's, my mother started reciting the
dialogue from memory, from a 40's screening of the movie. She said it was very
memorable dialogue: (after Clifton Webb interrupts Gene Tierney's attempted
seduction of Typore Power)
Webb: "Then the inevitable would have been inevitable."
Tierney: "No one but you could put it so delicately!"
The AFI is having a contest for the most memorable dialogue in Hollywood
films. Wonder if this scene "The Razor's Edge" is in the running.
Thanks for putting up with this brief flashback of my parents...
They would have loved to have known this about "The Razor's Edge".
Mike Grost
18143
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:41pm
Subject: The Hazards of Helen - Chapter 26 (1915)
Am still enjoying the "More Treasures from Amercan Film Archives".
One of the most delightful pieces - the enthusiastic, jet propelled melodrama
of "The Hazards of Helen".
I am an ardent Feuillade and Lang fan, but have never seen a Hollywood serial
of the same era before.
Whoever made this loved trains as much as Fritz Lang in "Human Desire".
Does anyone at a_film_by remember Ed Wheelan's comic strip "Minute Movies"?
He had a whole cast of pen-and-ink "actors", such as Dick Dare and Hazel
Dearie, who appeared in film spoof after film spoof in the strip, in different
roles. Hazel Dearie sometimes "starred" in a serial called "The Hazards of Hazel".
Her character's name in this serial was Hazel Knutt (say it out loud). Lots of
fun...
The Minute Movies are probably ancestral to the Fractured Fairy Tales and
Dudley Do Right segments on The Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.
Mike Grost
18144
From:
Date: Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:51pm
Subject: Re: musique concrete (was MoMAnts choisis)
I love musique concrete.
Does anyone still compose it or listen to it?
Mike Grost
(whose teenage idol was Edgard Varese.)
18145
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:21am
Subject: Re: MoMAnts choisis
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
>
> Although I wouldn't rank it quite as highly as you, I'm pleased to
> find that FIVE is finally getting some long-overdue recognition.
(To
> me, it's more interesting as well as accomplished than 10 in some
> respects, and the final segment is truly remarkable.) Up until
now,
> though, it's either been rumber-stamped rather mechanically by
French
> Kiarostami buffs who don't have much to say
For what it's worth, there was a highly favorable review -- you
could call it a rave -- of "FIVE" by Stephane Goudet in POSITIF of
May 2004.
18146
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:27am
Subject: Re: Isherwood (Was: Biopics) - a personal note
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"Am amazed to learn that Isherwood was the real life model for the
hero of 'The Razor's Edge'."
Take a look at Isherwood's true version of "The Razor's Edge," "My
Guru and His Disciple." There's also his translation of "The
Bhagavad Gita" done with his guru, his fictional account of his
spiritual life "A Meeting by the River," and his
biography "Ramakrishna and his Disciples." And he edited an
anthology called "Vedanta for the West."
Richard
18147
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:20am
Subject: OT'ish - Blanchot
On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 01:30 PM, jpcoursodon wrote:
>> Per Jean-Pierre's and David's recommendations, I am now reading
> Blanchot's 'L'Attente l'oubli,' albeit in translation -- c'est
> encore très, très beau.
> WOW! Didn't know it was translated! What a challenge! Glad to
> know you enjoy one of my favorite modern "texts" (what else to call
> it?)
I don't have the original version to compare with, but the prose seems
so tight, so electric at word- and sentence-level, that I would guess
there's some kind of legitimately faithful adherence going on here, --
what I'm saying is it -reads like- a first-rate translation, in any
case. Published by Bison Books, which is apparently a/the University
of Nebraska Press imprint, translated by John Gregg, as 'Awaiting
Oblivion.' Here it is at Amazon --
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803261578/
qid=1101176273/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-1597029-
4135224?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Am I missing something by not having read 'L'Arrête de mort' first?
craig.
18148
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:23am
Subject: Re: Re: Isherwood (Was: Biopics) - a personal note
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Am amazed to learn that Isherwood was the real life
> model for the hero of
> "The Razor's Edge".
I was sort of taken aback by that too, but it's one of
the things Peter Parker's biography brings up. Both
Don Bachardy and Jack Larson have confirmed to me that
Isherwood was indeed Maugham's model as he was into
"finding himself" spiritually quite early on.
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18149
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:25am
Subject: Re: OT'ish - Blanchot
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> Am I missing something by not having read 'L'Arrête
> de mort' first?
>
No.
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18150
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:26am
Subject: Re: Re: MoMAnts choisis
On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 05:44 PM, Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
> Gossipy footnote:
> FIVE was shot while Kiarostami was staying at Jafar Pahni's house on
> the Caspian Sea and scripting CRIMSON GOLD.
Maybe that explains why Panahi was given a credit in the opening
titles. (As is the case in much of AK, no clarification is made as to
what the actual breakdown of tasks or division of labor was among the
names appearing on the credits as the ostensible "crew.")
craig.
18151
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:37am
Subject: Re: OT'ish - Blanchot
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
> On Monday, November 22, 2004, at 01:30 PM, jpcoursodon wrote:
> >> Per Jean-Pierre's and David's recommendations, I am now reading
> > Blanchot's 'L'Attente l'oubli,' albeit in translation -- c'est
> > encore très, très beau.
> > WOW! Didn't know it was translated! What a challenge! Glad to
> > know you enjoy one of my favorite modern "texts" (what else to
call
> > it?)
>
> I don't have the original version to compare with, but the prose
seems
> so tight, so electric at word- and sentence-level, that I would
guess
> there's some kind of legitimately faithful adherence going on
here, --
> what I'm saying is it -reads like- a first-rate translation, in
any
> case. Published by Bison Books, which is apparently a/the
University
> of Nebraska Press imprint, translated by John Gregg, as 'Awaiting
> Oblivion.' Here it is at Amazon --
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803261578/
> qid=1101176273/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-1597029-
> 4135224?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> Am I missing something by not having read 'L'Arrête de mort' first?
>
> craig.
No I don't think so, because I read it before I ever read the
earlier one. Or THOMAS or AMINABAD or FAUX PAS. It was like
discovering your first Ford or Rivette! I was 28 I think, and my
life was in such an emotional turmoil. Did the book help or make
things worse? I don't know, but it impressed me like few books ever
did before and very few did later.
I have to check up that trtanslation...
18152
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:52am
Subject: Re: Re: OT'ish - Blanchot
And now a real rare treat for you all --
a photo of Maurice Blanchot
http://www.dhalgren.com/Blanchot.jpg
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18153
From: J. Mabe
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:12am
Subject: OT'ish - Blanchot (and swinging back on topic - Piero Helizcer)
I also went by the school library and picked up
'L'Attente l'oubli,' after I saw the recomendations
last week. I have a pretty sad track record in
finishing French books (plenty of half started Celine
and Robbe-Grillet), but I've got all Thanksgiving
break to try.
Also, Frameworks might be the better place to ask
this, but I'm having trouble sending that list things.
So, has anyone seen Piero Helizcer's Robin Hood? I'm
finalizing some films to bring to school next semester
and I know I want to show something by Helizcer (I saw
Dirt, Joan of Arc, and Autumn Feast this summer and I
am pretty impressed). I can find some OK short
decriptions of the rest of his work online, but all I
can find about Robin Hood is a quote from Helizcer
calling it his "most experimental film." Any
description of the work or just a yay/nay from someone
who knows the film would help.
Thanks,
Josh M.
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18154
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:23am
Subject: Re: OT'ish - Blanchot (and swinging back on topic - Piero Helizcer)
--- "J. Mabe" wrote:
>
> Also, Frameworks might be the better place to ask
> this, but I'm having trouble sending that list
> things.
> So, has anyone seen Piero Helizcer's Robin Hood?
> I'm
> finalizing some films to bring to school next
> semester
> and I know I want to show something by Helizcer (I
> saw
> Dirt, Joan of Arc, and Autumn Feast this summer and
> I
> am pretty impressed). I can find some OK short
> decriptions of the rest of his work online, but all
> I
> can find about Robin Hood is a quote from Helizcer
> calling it his "most experimental film." Any
> description of the work or just a yay/nay from
> someone
> who knows the film would help.
>
>
Good grief! I can't recall the last time anyone so
much as mentioned that name!
What a character. I hope that Fred and I aren't the
only ones to have seen Warhol's "Couch."
(Don't know "Robin Hood," alas.)
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18155
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:50am
Subject: Re: MoMAnts choisis
>
> For what it's worth, there was a highly favorable review -- you
> could call it a rave -- of "FIVE" by Stephane Goudet in POSITIF of
> May 2004.
Thanks--I didn't see that issue.
18156
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:31am
Subject: Revenge is sweet?
Dear friends, I know this is a vast question, but I shall put it to all
the erudite cinephiles here: I am doing some research into movies about
revenge. What would you recommend as your favourite revenge-based
films? Has anybody ever 'broken down' the various types of revenge
plots?
vengeance is mine, Adrian
18157
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:43am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> Dear friends, I know this is a vast question, but I shall put it
to all
> the erudite cinephiles here: I am doing some research into movies
about
> revenge. What would you recommend as your favourite revenge-based
> films? Has anybody ever 'broken down' the various types of revenge
> plots?
>
> vengeance is mine, Adrian
Adrian, I suspect there are more movies about vengeance/revenge
(what's the difference?)than about almost anything else, except
perhaps "love." So the corpus is discouragingly enormous. I'm afraid
people are going to send long lists of their favorite revenge
movies, or just of any revenge movie they can think of. And that way
madness lies, to quote Shakespeare (rather than Sarris).
JPC
18158
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 0:23am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
Have to echo JPC's skepticism.
Plus, revenge is really distasteful, morally wrong, etc.
It seems to be included in a lot of modern "entertainment" as a sop to the
most low brow audiences. Its presence in a film is a sure sign one is watching a
turkey.
I am not sure I have ever really liked a movie centering sympathetically on
revenge (he said self-righteously - you can see my halo, can't you?)
Although the word "revenge" is used right in the theme song of "Rancho
Notorious" (Fritz Lang), it is not clear that the hero's quest to find his fiancee's
killers is really revenge. It seems like an attempt to bring them to justice,
in an Old West society where there is no other law. It is a good movie.
By contrast, "Kriemhild's Revenge" is a genuine revenge film - and the least
likable Lang film I have ever tried to watch - a sickening death trip.
Even when revenge back fires - see Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne (Bresson) -
it hardly makes for one of my favorite films.
The three versions of one story - a hit man attacks the men who hired him,
then betrayed him - all have tragic power: This Gun for Hire (Frank Tuttle); Le
Samourai (Melville); Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai (Jarmusch).
There are a number of good films warning about the dangers and evils of
revenge, among the secondary characters (not the hero): see "Romeo and Juliet", and
such Nicholas Ray films as "On Dangerous Ground" and "Johnny Guitar".
Mike Grost
18159
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:25am
Subject: Re: Re: Revenge is sweet?
Adrian, some of the favorites that
came to my mind:
Conan, the Barbarian (John Milius)
Enter the Dragon (Robert Clouse)
Forever Mine (Paul Schrader)
Fury (Fritz Lang)
Masques (Claude Chabrol)
Ms. 45 (Abel Ferrara)
Once Upon a Time in West (Sergio Leone)
Persued (Raoul Walsh)
Rolling Thunder (John Flynn)
The Big Night (Joseph Losey)
The Man from Laramie (Anthony Mann)
The Raid (Hugo Fragonese)
To Live and Die in LA (William Friedkin)
Violent City (Sergio Solima)
To many Clint Eastwood film to mention.
All but the Chabrol and the Solima are
american.
Filipe
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com,
Adrian Martin
> wrote:
> > Dear friends, I know this is a
vast question, but I shall put it
> to all
> > the erudite cinephiles here: I am
doing some research into movies
> about
> > revenge. What would you recommend
as your favourite revenge-based
> > films? Has anybody ever 'broken
down' the various types of revenge
> > plots?
> >
> > vengeance is mine, Adrian
>
> Adrian, I suspect there are more
movies about vengeance/revenge
> (what's the difference?)than about
almost anything else, except
> perhaps "love." So the corpus is
discouragingly enormous. I'm afraid
> people are going to send long lists
of their favorite revenge
> movies, or just of any revenge movie
they can think of. And that way
> madness lies, to quote Shakespeare
(rather than Sarris).
>
> JPC
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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18160
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:28am
Subject: Mass mailings to the group
To George (and everyone):
All group members should please be reminded of a firm prohibition in our
Statement of Purpose regarding mass mailings with only marginal relevance to
a_film_by. It is clearly stated that "members shall not [...] send to the group
mass mailings that have no specific relevance to the group's purpose." Just
since the 16th, George, you have cross-posted (or forwarded) four mass mailings
to the group. While some are relevant, a few others are only relevant in the
broad sense of being related to "the world of movies." One of the reasons we
formed a_film_by is because we wanted to have focused discussions on cinema
from an auteurist perspective.
Thanks,
Fred and Peter
18161
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:15am
Subject: Re: A Very Long Engagement (Un Longue Dimanche De Fiancailles)
>
> By contrast Jean-Pierre Melville and
Sergio Leone do
> not "reference" the gangster film
and western but make
> an active contribution to the genre.
>
That depends. Mellville very studied
attempts of imitating american
gangsters films always struck me as
perfect examples of when cinephilia
turns into academicism (sort of like
the first Kill Bill, actually). Hill's
The Driver may have far more
references than Le Samourai, but at
least it don1t feel dead.
As for Leone, I'm fan, but I also
think his contribution to the genre
was taking it out of history and
towards a cinephile dead end of
mythmaking and antui-mith making whose
final destination could only be it's
current dead state.
Filipe
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18162
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:25am
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
I do agree that biopic is a genre with
a dangerous tendency toward being too
midllebrow. Bu complaing about that is
like complaing most horror films are
bad (they are, but isn't the same true
to every genre? including the more
highbrow ones?).
My favorite biopic is probably Larry
Cohen's The Private Files of J. Edgar
Hoover. An almost B-gangster film (I
have to love all those carachters
actor playing the presidents as if
they are low-life gangsters).
Filipe
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18163
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:44am
Subject: Re: Re: MoMAnts choisis
>
> > Did yesterday's Times make the
rounds at MoMA? Godard deigned to
> > speak to an Amerikan, Manohla
Dargis, at Cannes, telling her that
> > "Americans don't have critics.
For me, there are only two, James Agee
> > and Manny Farber." Some may
recall that he has stated otherwise
> > elsewhere!
>
Well, there's already some time since
I start take Godard's interviews as
wonderful pieces of performance, but
not taking anything he says much serious.
As for Five, Ruy wrote a very good
review of it recently
(http://www.contracampo.com.br/64/five.htm)
comparing it not to avant garde cinema
buit to some musical compositions by
William Basinski, Brian Eno and Aphex
Twin.
> Yes. He was obviously twisting
Dargis's knickers -- and her
> "drastic...edits" render much of
that interview (most specifically the
> part about "America") unintelligible.
>
> > Does the subway still rumble
beneath Titus I?
>
> You betcha! It added a whole new
layer of ambient sound every 12
> minutes during 'Five.'
>
> craig.
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo!
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>
>
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>
>
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>
>
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>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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18164
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:53am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Adrian, I suspect there are more movies about vengeance/revenge
> (what's the difference?)than about almost anything else, except
> perhaps "love." So the corpus is discouragingly enormous.
I would estimate that 90-95% of all film noir and westerns have
revenge as a theme or sub-theme.
My own favorite revenge film is McCarey's "The Awful Truth."
18165
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:11am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
Less a "roaring ramage of revenge" [to quote the posters] than a sly
and somewhat melancholic game of tit-for-tat, the first film to come
to my mind was actually Wes Andersons RUSHMORE...
18166
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:13am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
Damien Bona:
>
>
> I would estimate that 90-95% of all film noir and westerns have
> revenge as a theme or sub-theme.
>
The same could probably go for a lot of horror films. Actually, the
slasher film presents a fascinating turn-around: Pretty much all
slasher-movies are revenge narratives, if you think about it. The
villain (Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, etc.) is usually exacting
revenge from the community at large for some horrid injustice done
to him in the past. But in this case the revenger is a monstrous
villain (albeit one the audiences sometimes identify with to a
disturbing degree).
It's both a logical extension and a bizarre reversal of the revenge
fantasies of films like DEATH WISH and HANG'EM HIGH and others. It's
also interesting to note that the heyday of the slasher movie comes
almost immediately after the death of the Western, and a bit longer
after the final true noir films. There are plenty of related and
unrelated reasons for this, but I suspect there are some
psychological links here as well.
-Bilge
18167
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Revenge is sweet?
I immediately think of Polanski's great "Death and the Maiden": a revenge
film which certainly ends up being anti-revenge.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
18168
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:11am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> What would you recommend as your favourite revenge-based films?
- Easy Street (Charles Chaplin, 1916)
- The Long-Haired Hare (Chuck Jones, 1949)
- Terror in a Texas Town (Joseph H. Lewis, 1958) maybe if we sent
harpoons to the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran...
- Billy's Balloon (Don Hertzfeldt, 1998) aka "Revenge of the Red Balloon"
-Jason
18169
From: j_biel
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:31am
Subject: Re: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> It has always shocked my French eyesight to see the way Americans
> spell French film titles the anglo-american way, with the first
> letter of every word (except articles and such) capitalized.
I think most European languages do not capitalize words in titles
(German is a special case since it always capitalizes all nouns, not
only in titles). My native language is Polish and using the upper case
in it for all words is immediately noticeable and looks very odd, as
if a child wrote it.
Same BTW goes for names like Louis de Broglie, Anne Sofie von Otter,
Gloria von Thurn und Taxis, Lars von Trier, etc. These people would be
listed in the telephone directory as "Broglie, Louis de", "Otter, Anne
Sofie von". This is also how virtually all national libraries would
list them, _except_ the Library of Congress which frequently lists
under "De" or "Von" which is ridiculous as these little words simply
mean "of" or "from" (more or less).
18170
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:40am
Subject: Re: Torino
> Copacabana si - an amazing film,
more radical than the first film
> with Elena, La mulher di tudo (sp?)
(no relation) which I gather was
> a hit in Brazil.
Both A Mulher de Todos e O Bandido da
Luz Vermelha were hits, mostly in the
more popular theatres (A Mulher de
Todos actually played a part inm
establishing a sex comedy genre that
was very popular here during the
seventies). Helena was a well-known
actress and Jô Soares (who plays her
husband) was very popular comedian. As
Ruy said thanks to them Sganzerla got
money to fund a small company with
Julio Bressanne called Belair were
they shot 6 films in two months (or so
the legend goes). I love Copacabana (a
film very unpopular even among some
Sganzerla's fans), it's very radical
aesthetically (and also very
political) and it has a sense of
genuine freedom few films I know have,
also Gilberto Gil's score is the best
thing he ever composed (as a friend of
mine says this is the true auteur film
even the score keep refering to the
filmmaker). I have never seeing
Carnaval na Lama (actually don't know
anyone who has), but both Copacabana
and Sem Essa Aranha are among the very
best things done here (as is
Bressane's A Familia do Barulho who
also star Helena). Actually Glauber
Rocha's final fim The Age of Earth is
a Belair film done in epic scale,
Rocha himself told Bressane that he
was doing the film as sort of hommage
to the Belair films.
The films have been very well received
at Torino -
> all screenings packed and appreciative.
That's great.
>I saw it and Mulher di todo
> with Christa Fuller, who observed
affinities with Sam's films,
> particularly the post-72 ones.
Glad she like it. I don't know if you
know, but Sganzerla start as film
critic (a great one) and Fuller were
along with Hawks and Godard, his
greatest models at the time. If I'm
not mistaken, Gabe told me he bought
the little book Rogerio edited with
his more theorical essays, which is
great and gives great insight on the
films (there 1s three articles there
-- The Cynical Camera, Cinema of the
Body, and Cinema of the Soul -- that
are among the best things I've read).
I'm quite sure he would love to know
that Christa Fuller thought his films
and Fuller's had a lot in common.
>Now we have to spread the word about
Rogerio in the States.
Well, I'd love to help. I know Gabe
published Ruy's review of the last one
on 24fps and wrote himself about it in
the Fipresci site.
Filipe
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18171
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:31am
Subject: Re: Revenge is sweet?
I would strongly question the assertion that 90% of film noir concerns
revenge. It just does not seem to be true. Where is the revenge in Preminger's noir,
for example: Laura, Fallen Angel, Whirlpool, Where the Sidewalk Ends, Bunny
Lake Is Missing? There is not much revenge in Phil Karlson, or Tourneur, or
Walsh's "White Heat".
Also: some detective stories feature a lone sleuth, trying to track down the
killer of a loved one, a crime not being investigated by the police. It is
dubious to refer to such films as revenge stories, although they might be on the
bordeline. Examples: Strange Illusion (Edgar G. Ulmer), Rancho Notorious
(Fritz Lang), Masques (Claude Chabrol). These films are "just" detective stories.
The focus is not on revenge, but the search for justice. Calling these revenge
films is really stretching the term.
Some of the films mentioned in a_film_by posts form another category: films
in which a person sets out for revenge, but discovers the terrible truth that
it is as bad as the original crimes. Examples: Judex (Louis Feuillade), Fury
(Fritz Lang), Death & the Maiden (Polanski).
Mike Grost
18172
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:17am
Subject: Re:Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
Some good biopics, all made in the last 30 years:
The Family Nobody Wanted (Ralph Senensky)
Journey From Darkness (James Goldstone)
Lisztomania (Ken Russell)
F. Scott Fitzgerald in Hollywood (Anthony Page)
Clouds of Glory (Ken Russell)
Ishi: the Last of His Tribe (Robert Ellis Miller)
I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings (Fiedler Cook)
Kagemusha (Akira Kurosawa)
Melvin and Howard (Jonathan Demme)
Chariots of Fire (Hugh Hudson)
Prince of the City (Sidney Lumet)
Don't Cry, Its Only Thunder (Peter Werner)
Choices of the Heart (Joseph Sargeant)
A Matter of Sex (Lee Grant)
Mask (Peter Bogdanovich)
The Boy in Blue (Charles Jarrott)
Nazi Hunter: The Beate Klarsfeld Story (Michael Lindsay-Hogg)
La Bamba (Luis Valdez)
Gaby (Luis Mandoki)
Stand and Deliver (Ramon Menendez)
Born on the Fourth of July (Oliver Stone)
Europa Europa (Agnieska Holland)
Hear My Song (Peter Chelsom)
Jacquot de Nantes (Agnès Varda)
The Krays (Peter Medak)
Ed Wood (Tim Burton)
The Madness of King George (Nicholas Hytner)
Princess Caraboo (Michael Austin)
Jefferson in Paris (James Ivory)
Ghosts of Mississippi (Rob Reiner)
Amistad (Steven Spielberg)
Destiny (Youssef Chahine)
Kundun (Martin Scorsese)
Sucre amer / Bitter Sugar (Christian Lara)
Wilde (Brian Gilbert)
The Apple (Samira Makhmalbaf)
Boys Don't Cry (Kimberly Peirce)
Goya (Carlos Saura)
Before Night Falls (Julian Schnabel)
The Color of Friendship (Kevin Hooks)
Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
La Veuve de St. Pierre / The Widow of St. Pierre (Patrice Leconte)
Nirgendwo in Afrika / Nowhere in Africa (Caroline Link)
Catch Me If You Can (Steven Spielberg)
Joe and Max (Steve James)
Matir Moina / The Clay Bird (Tareque Masud)
The Pianist (Roman Polanski)
De-Lovely (Irwin Winkler)
Mike Grost
18173
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- filipefurtado wrote:
> I do agree that biopic is a genre with
> a dangerous tendency toward being too
> midllebrow. Bu complaing about that is
> like complaing most horror films are
> bad (they are, but isn't the same true
> to every genre? including the more
> highbrow ones?).
>
"Middle-brow" is often as not a "polite" way of
pulling class status while slamming certain films for
being "unrealistic."
I love Ken Russell's biopics -- even "Lisztomania."
Anti-Russellites invariably praise "Song of Summer"
for its "restraint" -- ignoring the fact that it's a
film about emotional repression. "Dante's Inferno" and
"Isadora - The Biggest Dancer in the World" are the
best of the TV films I've seen.(Never saw "Dance of
the Seven Veils,' his notorious Richard Struass
biopic.) And I of course adore "Ken Russell's Film of
Tchaikovsky and the Music Lovers" and "Mahler."
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18174
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:01pm
Subject: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
1. Hero after revenge.
2. Villain after revenge.
My favourite is probably AN ACTOR'S REVENGE, which is of the former
scol, but manages to be somewhat anti-vengeance.
I haven't watched it yet but SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE is a great
title.
Of the villain school, the Vincent Price films THE ABOMIBNABLE DR.
PHIBES and THEATRE OF BLOOD are pinnacles, films contructed solely
around set-pieces of spectacular sadistic retribution.
In Restoration theatre there was a whole sub-genre, the revenger's
tragedy, built around this theme.
18175
From: Fred Camper
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...) & Larry Cohen
filipefurtado wrote:
> My favorite biopic is probably Larry
> Cohen's The Private Files of J. Edgar
> Hoover.
This is a really good if eccentric choice. It's a very strange film,
even for Cohen. In part the tone is tabloid-sensational, but it doesn't
completely take its sensational tone seriously, and it has the
off-center weirdness of Cohen's best work too.
If Marker's "The Last Bolshevik" is a biopic, it's even greater.
There's something that rubs me the wrong way about genre considerations;
I always want to argue against organizing cinema by genre. There's
something inherently conservative about accepting genre conventions that
kind of bothers me, though I'm not sure I can completely explain why. It
is a bit anti-auteurist, of course, because it stresses conventions that
transcend individual authors over a single artist's vision. A great
filmmaker always destroys the overriding relevance of genre, which is
not to say that you can't profitably discuss a filmmaker by comparing
some of his genre films to genre conventions. And I want Peter Kubelka's
"Arnulf Rainer" to be a "biopic," even though it's a flicker film, as it
did begin as a commissioned film about the artist Arnulf Rainer. I want
Breakage's "The Governor" to be one too, even though it's really a
portrait or documentary. Or what about the various great "Joan of Arcs"
(Dreyer, Preminger, Bresson, Rossellini). My thinking about such things
always starts with the filmmakers I love, and then asks if any of their
works fit.
Fred Camper
18176
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:44pm
Subject: Re: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "j_biel" wrote:
>
>
> Same BTW goes for names like Louis de Broglie, Anne Sofie von
Otter,
> Gloria von Thurn und Taxis, Lars von Trier, etc. These people
would be
> listed in the telephone directory as "Broglie, Louis de", "Otter,
Anne
> Sofie von". This is also how virtually all national libraries would
> list them, _except_ the Library of Congress which frequently lists
> under "De" or "Von" which is ridiculous as these little words
simply
> mean "of" or "from" (more or less).
Right! Another thing that bothers this French person is the way
Americans always refer to "de Sade," "de Maupassant," etc where we
never use the "de" when mentioning the author's last name. It's "Guy
de Maupassant," but plain "Maupassant"... But there is no chance
that old habits will ever be changed.
JPC
18177
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:00pm
Subject: Re: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
set-pieces of spectacular sadistic retribution.
>
> In Restoration theatre there was a whole sub-genre, the revenger's
> tragedy, built around this theme.
Actually it's Elizabethan theatre, and "The Revenger's Tragedy" is
the title of a play by Cyril Tourneur (1607) -- they had a Ford and
a Tourneur too in Shakespeare's time! -- But revenge was indeed a
major theme in the theatre of the time. Isn't "Hamlet" about
plotting a revenge?
JPC
18178
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Actually it's Elizabethan theatre, and "The
> Revenger's Tragedy" is
> the title of a play by Cyril Tourneur (1607) -- they
> had a Ford and
> a Tourneur too in Shakespeare's time! -- But revenge
> was indeed a
> major theme in the theatre of the time. Isn't
> "Hamlet" about
> plotting a revenge?
>
Rivette's sublime "Noroit" utilizes "The Revenger's
Tragedy" as an alternate text. Geraldine Chaplin
recies portions of it as she plots revenge against
pirate queen Bernadette Laffont for killing her
brother.
The greatest revenge film of all time, of course, is
"Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne."
> JPC
>
>
>
>
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18179
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:20pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
I agree with Fred Camper that directors are far more important than genre.
But looking at my list of post-1975 biopics does lead to some reflections.
Almost all of these films are regular "movies". They have plots, characters and subjects. They are narrative films that follow narrative conventions that were already coalescing in 1909 with such Griffith films as "The Country Doctor" and "Corner in Wheat".
This sort of filmmaking is often unfashionable.
The public often wants films loaded with violence and special effects: The Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Pirates of the Caribbean.
Or films full of sleaze billed as comedies: Dodgeball, Ten Things I Hate About You.
None of the biopics are part of this commercial sleaze, violence & special effects output.
Nor do they fall into the two big kinds of films loved by critics today. The biopics are not "serious dramas about ordinary people in everyday life": Vera Drake, Yi Yi, American Beauty, You Can Count on Me, Noi Albinoi.
Nor are they examples of minimalist films in which little happens: Lost in Translation, What Time Is It There?, Waiting for Happiness, Distant, Before Sunset, Flowers of Shanghai.
Implicitly, may critics have little real interest in the kinds of filmmaking in the biopics. They are not about daily life, nor are they minimalistic. These two types of films are what many cinephiles now think of as "important filmmaking".
Consequently, biopics are now representatives of an ancient and what many people think of as a dated approach to filmmaking. They do not have the relentless violence and special effects that mesmerize the public, nor do they appeal to the "serious drama of daily life" or "Minimalst" critical schools.
Instead, the biopics in the list look as if they might disappear from film history altogether. Films that are "movies" in the sense understood from 1909-1970 have fewer and fewer constituents, either in the public or among film historians and critics. Films rich in plot, characters and subject matter.
Mike Grost
The list again:
The Family Nobody Wanted (Ralph Senensky)
Journey From Darkness (James Goldstone)
Lisztomania (Ken Russell)
F. Scott Fitzgerald in Hollywood (Anthony Page)
Clouds of Glory (Ken Russell)
Ishi: the Last of His Tribe (Robert Ellis Miller)
I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings (Fiedler Cook)
Kagemusha (Akira Kurosawa)
Melvin and Howard (Jonathan Demme)
Chariots of Fire (Hugh Hudson)
Prince of the City (Sidney Lumet)
Don't Cry, Its Only Thunder (Peter Werner)
Choices of the Heart (Joseph Sargeant)
A Matter of Sex (Lee Grant)
Mask (Peter Bogdanovich)
The Boy in Blue (Charles Jarrott)
Nazi Hunter: The Beate Klarsfeld Story (Michael Lindsay-Hogg)
La Bamba (Luis Valdez)
Gaby (Luis Mandoki)
Stand and Deliver (Ramon Menendez)
Born on the Fourth of July (Oliver Stone)
Europa Europa (Agnieska Holland)
Hear My Song (Peter Chelsom)
Jacquot de Nantes (Agnès Varda)
The Krays (Peter Medak)
Ed Wood (Tim Burton)
The Madness of King George (Nicholas Hytner)
Princess Caraboo (Michael Austin)
Jefferson in Paris (James Ivory)
Ghosts of Mississippi (Rob Reiner)
Amistad (Steven Spielberg)
Destiny (Youssef Chahine)
Kundun (Martin Scorsese)
Sucre amer / Bitter Sugar (Christian Lara)
Wilde (Brian Gilbert)
The Apple (Samira Makhmalbaf)
Boys Don't Cry (Kimberly Peirce)
Goya (Carlos Saura)
Before Night Falls (Julian Schnabel)
The Color of Friendship (Kevin Hooks)
Songcatcher (Maggie Greenwald)
La Veuve de St. Pierre / The Widow of St. Pierre (Patrice Leconte)
Nirgendwo in Afrika / Nowhere in Africa (Caroline Link)
Catch Me If You Can (Steven Spielberg)
Joe and Max (Steve James)
Matir Moina / The Clay Bird (Tareque Masud)
The Pianist (Roman Polanski)
De-Lovely (Irwin Winkler)
18180
From: Damien Bona
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:31pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
I don't think anyone's mentioned Francois Gerard's "Thirty-Two Short
Films About Glenn Gould," which, as the title indicates, consists of
a series of vignettes from the pianist's life. As such, it eschews
the traditional, "and then he did this . . . " linear construction of
the typical bio-pic and the result is one of the most illuminating
portrayals of a real-life person in all of cinema.
My favorite Ken Russell is Valentino, especially with Huntz Hall
playing Jesse Lasky.
18181
From: acquarello2000
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:10pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
>
> I don't think anyone's mentioned Francois Gerard's "Thirty-Two Short
> Films About Glenn Gould," which, as the title indicates, consists of
> a series of vignettes from the pianist's life. As such, it eschews
> the traditional, "and then he did this . . . " linear construction of
> the typical bio-pic and the result is one of the most illuminating
> portrayals of a real-life person in all of cinema.
This comment on musical subjects just reminded me of another
non-traditional narrative short film that I really liked: Thierry
Knauff's "Anton Webern", a "biopic" of sorts on the composer,
constructed primarily of shots of hands and set to music. Knauff
tends to incorporate a good deal of texture on texture in his
compositions, so the choice of a polyphonic composer is in keeping
with his aesthetic.
Others incorporating a more structurally innovative approach that I
also liked would be Aleksandr Sokurov and Semen Aranovich's "Dmitri
Shostakovich: Viola Sonata" and Straub/Huillet's "Chronicle of Anna
Magdalena Bach".
acquarello
18182
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...)
--- Damien Bona wrote:
>
> I don't think anyone's mentioned Francois Gerard's
> "Thirty-Two Short
> Films About Glenn Gould," which, as the title
> indicates, consists of
> a series of vignettes from the pianist's life. As
> such, it eschews
> the traditional, "and then he did this . . . "
> linear construction of
> the typical bio-pic and the result is one of the
> most illuminating
> portrayals of a real-life person in all of cinema.
>
Oh yes, that's absolutely first-rate. Colm Feore is an
amazing talent, who should be getting leading roles --
rather than mere featured ones as in "Chicago."
His best work to date was in a sadly not-well-known
Canadian film called "The Perfect Son." It was about
two estranged brothers, the "good one," dying of AIDS.
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18183
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:27pm
Subject: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> Rivette's sublime "Noroit" utilizes "The Revenger's
> Tragedy" as an alternate text. Geraldine Chaplin
> recies portions of it as she plots revenge against
> pirate queen Bernadette Laffont for killing her
> brother.
I wonder whether this (and the other unavailable Rivette) will ever
surface on DVD. At least a few films are available in unsubtitled
French on video (Pont du Nord) and DVD (L'amour par terre), but so
much is missing. Not even the full version of "Joan" seems to be
available anymore. (I once ordered the French video -- but it seems to
have sustained magnetic damage in transit -- that rendered the image
near invisible).
MEK
18184
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:33pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 12:27 PM, Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
wrote:
> I wonder whether this (and the other unavailable Rivette) will ever
> surface on DVD. At least a few films are available in unsubtitled
> French on video (Pont du Nord) and DVD (L'amour par terre), but so
> much is missing. Not even the full version of "Joan" seems to be
> available anymore. (I once ordered the French video -- but it seems to
> have sustained magnetic damage in transit -- that rendered the image
> near invisible).
And I've heard (here or elsewhere) that the Facets DVD of 'Jeanne la
pucelle' is edited.
Meanwhile, Koch Lorber have picked up the American rights for 'Histoire
de Marie et Julien.'
craig.
18185
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:39pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
Oh, and addendum:
The new issue of Film Comment reports that Rivette is in pre-production
on his next film, which will star (and was written especially for)
Jeanne Balibar -- to be entitled 'L'Année prochaine à Paris' ['Next
Year in Paris'].
craig.
18186
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:39pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
> And I've heard (here or elsewhere) that the Facets DVD of 'Jeanne la
> pucelle' is edited.
There were apparently two versions -- a US version (that is missing a
couple of hours) and one for the rest of the world (which was
complete). Facets released the US version -- not surprisingly.
I actually sat through my unwatchable French video (despite the visual
pain) once -- just to get a sense of how it differed. My sense was
that it flowed much better overall).
Did anyone here actually seen the long version of "Va savoir" that
came out in France (and maybe nowhere else) a year or two after the
first version?
MEK
18187
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:41pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, Koch Lorber have picked up the American
> rights for 'Histoire
> de Marie et Julien.'
>
Hooray!
Just wish my favorite Rivette -- "Duelle" -- was out
on DVD.
I've got "Jeanne la Pucelle," which is slightly cut
from the theatrical version I first saw, but not by
very much so I suspect that Rivette made the cuts.
I also have "Hurlevant" -- his great and practically
unknown version of "Wuthering Heights" -- and "Secret
Defense."
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18188
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:45pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Oh, and addendum:
>
> The new issue of Film Comment reports that Rivette
> is in pre-production
> on his next film, which will star (and was written
> especially for)
> Jeanne Balibar -- to be entitled 'L'Année prochaine
> à Paris' ['Next
> Year in Paris'].
>
When I went to Paris for the first time in '83 I
foundmyself having lunch with a friend in a left bank
restaurant -- I forget which one. Rivette was sitting
there and suddenly Bulle Ogier came in and they
conferred conspiratorily (of course.) I felt as if I'd
suddenly fallen into a scen from "Out One."
>
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18189
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
> Did anyone here actually seen the long version of "Va savoir" that
> came out in France (and maybe nowhere else) a year or two after the
> first version?
You mean 'Va savoir +,' Rivette's true and complete (and over an hour
longer) version of the film, and the most unacknowledged (and most
recent) of the "lost" Rivettes
Keep your eyes peeled on the Cahiers du cinéma: Deux films de... series
of DVDs...
craig.
(On an un-Rivette-related note, the latest releases from the series,
the new Garrel x 2 and ['La Vent de la nuit' and 'Elle a passé tant
d'heures sous les sunlights...'] and the Panahi x 2 ['The White
Balloon' and 'Crimson Gold'], break precedent of the first set of
releases by apparently NOT including English subtitles.)
18190
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> I've got "Jeanne la Pucelle," which is slightly cut
> from the theatrical version I first saw, but not by
> very much so I suspect that Rivette made the cuts.
> I also have "Hurlevant" -- his great and practically
> unknown version of "Wuthering Heights" -- and "Secret
> Defense."
The Facets DVDs (and videos) are 227 minutes long -- 99 minutes
shorter than the original French version (which ran 326 minutes).
MEK
18191
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
> I've got "Jeanne la Pucelle," which is slightly cut
> from the theatrical version I first saw, but not by
> very much so I suspect that Rivette made the cuts.
> I also have "Hurlevant" -- his great and practically
> unknown version of "Wuthering Heights" -- and "Secret
> Defense."
'Hurlevent' is excellent -- I finally got a hold of the US release so I
could have some subtitles. What ever happened to Fabienne Babe?
craig.
18192
From: Robert Keser
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Spelling minutiae/Jeunet
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Another thing that bothers this French person is the way
> Americans always refer to "de Sade," "de Maupassant," etc where we
> never use the "de" when mentioning the author's last name.
>It's "Guy de Maupassant," but plain "Maupassant"... But there is no
>chance that old habits will ever be changed.
It must come from a half century of reading publicity about De Mille!
--Robert Keser
18193
From:
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
And *NOT* edited by Rivette. He has in fact disowned this version, which
was cut by a distributor. In my opinion very little if anything of
Rivette's film survives in this truncated version.
Fred.
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
>> I've got "Jeanne la Pucelle," which is slightly cut
>> from the theatrical version I first saw, but not by
>> very much so I suspect that Rivette made the cuts.
>> I also have "Hurlevant" -- his great and practically
>> unknown version of "Wuthering Heights" -- and "Secret
>> Defense."
>
> The Facets DVDs (and videos) are 227 minutes long -- 99 minutes
> shorter than the original French version (which ran 326 minutes).
>
> MEK
18194
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:57pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> 'Hurlevent' is excellent -- I finally got a hold of the US release so
> I could have some subtitles.
At first I thought I disliked this Rivette film. Then I looked at the
book -- and realized it was actually the novel itself I disliked --
but that this was a pretty interesting film, notwithstanding that
problem. Some of the loveliest (and most interesting) cinematography
in Rivette's canon.
> What ever happened to Fabienne Babe?
IMDB's listing suggest she is still working quite steadily -- albeit
not making anything I've heard about. ;~)
MEK
18195
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:58pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
> When I went to Paris for the first time in '83 I
> foundmyself having lunch with a friend in a left bank
> restaurant -- I forget which one. Rivette was sitting
> there and suddenly Bulle Ogier came in and they
> conferred conspiratorily (of course.) I felt as if I'd
> suddenly fallen into a scen from "Out One."
It's a magic-realist world. Speaking of Ogier, I was reminded how much
she shines in Assayas's 'Irma Vep' the other night when I sat down to
watch the recent French disc of the film -- pristine image (no
subtitles, although only about 50% of the film is in French of course),
great sound. There's also a 30m+ video conversation filmed for the
DVD's release between Assayas and Charles Tesson on the Cahiers Made in
China issue from the early '80s and all manner of Asian cinema before
and after. No subtitles there, either, so I could understand almost
nothing of it -- and O.A. gives Scorsese a run for his money in terms
of words-per-second. It also contain's 'Man Yuk,' Assayas's approx. 5m
silent 1997 video portrait of Maggie Cheung hanging out in their hotel
room. And, a new video interview filmed for the release (2/3rds in
English, 1/3 in French) between Maggie, Nathalie Richard, and Serge
Kaganski.
craig.
18196
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:59pm
Subject: Re: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
"1. Hero after revenge.
"2. Villain after revenge.
"My favourite is probably AN ACTOR'S REVENGE, which is of the former
scol, but manages to be somewhat anti-vengeance."
Japanese variations on the above: feudal noblesse oblige,
the "Chushingura" paragigm, and ghostly vengence, the "Tokaido
Yotsuya Kaidan/Ghost Story of Yotsuya" paradigm. There are numerous
films of both stories and variations on them. There's also a sub-
genre of ghost cat revenge stories (no one has mentioned animal
vengence movies yet.) J-P is quite right about the inexhaustability
of this theme.
Richard
18197
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
>
> At first I thought I disliked this Rivette film. Then I looked at the
> book -- and realized it was actually the novel itself I disliked --
> but that this was a pretty interesting film, notwithstanding that
> problem. Some of the loveliest (and most interesting) cinematography
> in Rivette's canon.
In the recent interview at Senses of Cinema with Rivette (all on the
subject of 'Hurlevent'), it sounds like Renato Berta was difficult to
work with (if only because of his perfectionism vs. the production's
allotted time and budget), and that the production was a bit of a
nightmare -- with significant anxiety running through the shoot in
dread anticipation of when the phone call would come saying Truffaut
was dead.
> IMDB's listing suggest she is still working quite steadily -- albeit
> not making anything I've heard about. ;~)
That's where I'm coming from. And we all know what became of Lucas
Belvaux.
I'd also like to second your nod to the uncut 'L'Amour par terre' --
I've only seen it without subtitles, in the French "Jacques Rivette: 6
Films" box from Arte, but it still left quite a mark on me. (But no
iodine on the forehead.)
craig.
18198
From: Travis Miles
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
Has anyone else seen OLD BOY, which takes the traditional revenge story and
refracts it almost to the point of infinite regression? There was something
about the bravura of this film that really affected me. Much has been made
of its evocation of classical tragedy, but I have to say there's a horrible,
hysterical grandeur to it that is not off the mark. I haven't seen SYMPATHY
FOR MR. VENGEANCE, but have been told it carries some of the same strains of
full-on hysteria. I'm keen.
T
On 11/23/04 12:59 PM, "Richard Modiano" wrote:
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
> wrote:
>
> "1. Hero after revenge.
>
> "2. Villain after revenge.
>
> "My favourite is probably AN ACTOR'S REVENGE, which is of the former
> scol, but manages to be somewhat anti-vengeance."
>
> Japanese variations on the above: feudal noblesse oblige,
> the "Chushingura" paragigm, and ghostly vengence, the "Tokaido
> Yotsuya Kaidan/Ghost Story of Yotsuya" paradigm. There are numerous
> films of both stories and variations on them. There's also a sub-
> genre of ghost cat revenge stories (no one has mentioned animal
> vengence movies yet.) J-P is quite right about the inexhaustability
> of this theme.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
18199
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:23pm
Subject: Re: All the MIA Rivette films (was: 2 types of revenge )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> In the recent interview at Senses of Cinema with Rivette (all on the
> subject of 'Hurlevent'), it sounds like Renato Berta was difficult to
> work with (if only because of his perfectionism vs. the production's
> allotted time and budget), and that the production was a bit of a
> nightmare -- with significant anxiety running through the shoot in
> dread anticipation of when the phone call would come saying Truffaut
> was dead.
Thanks for pointing this out -- I seem to have missed this article
somehow.
> I'd also like to second your nod to the uncut 'L'Amour par terre' --
> I've only seen it without subtitles, in the French "Jacques Rivette: 6
> Films" box from Arte, but it still left quite a mark on me. (But no
> iodine on the forehead.)
I actually think I like "L'amour par terre" better than "Celine and
Julie". The Arte box set was such a treasure -- too bad it doesn't
have at least French subtitles -- luckily I married (decades ago)
someone who speaks French.
At this point, most of our family's Rivette collection is in
unsubtitled French.
MEK
18200
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:27pm
Subject: Re: 2 types of revenge (was: Revenge is sweet?)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Travis Miles wrote:
> I haven't seen SYMPATHY FOR MR. VENGEANCE, but have been told it
> carries some of the same strains of full-on hysteria.
When I first watched "Sympathy" (and I'll never be able to bear
watching it a second time, I'm too squeamish about watching actresses
I love tortured to death), I immediately thought of Shakespeare's
"Titus Andronicus" and blood-and-thunder Restoration tragedies. I
guess it's good , if that's the kind of thing you like. I didn't in
1600 -- and don't now. ;~}
MEK
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