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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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emailing them from that Web site.
18301
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:08pm
Subject: Kent Jones Is Not Kent Jones
And what I mean by that is: film-critic-etc. Kent Jones, and Kent
Jones, who someone here once invoked as a co-writer for Frank DeCaro's
bits on The Daily Show -- and who apparently is also a writer for
Morning Sedition on Air America, along with the presenter of the
"Unfiltered News" clips --
-- are not the same man.
Compare bios:
http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/morningsedition/bio.asp
vs.
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/03/26/kent_jones.html
craig.
18302
From: Adam Hart
Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Classical vs. Pop (Was: Hans Memling)
as i didn't come across anything by bergman until almost two decades after his
"retirement", i approached his films with a vague dread of allegory and pretension that
probably didn't have the bite that somebody living through the crossword puzzle-criticism
of the sixties would undoubtedly have endured. i remember some critic waxing romantic
about how much better moviegoers used to be describing excitedly how the critics used to
devote all their intellectual energies to decoding the meanings of each new bergman film
to reach cinemas. i think what makes bergman such a popular whipping boy for auteurists
is that so many of his supporters discuss "meaning" as if were totally divorced from all
matters stylistic, technical, etc. he's treated as a theorist rather than a filmmaker. the
bottom line is that the seventh seal is revered because it symbolises this and this, rather
than because its artistry makes an audience feel a different way - and, even worse, that's
what his less-talented imitators pick up on as well (i get the feeling that, shades of
tarantino, bergman is always being subconsciously confused with imitation-bergman).
and i just want to say that i was surprised by his films. i was kind of shocked to find that
the seventh seal is actually a living, breathing movie that's pretty damn enjoyable. and
smiles of a summer's night is hilarious. i'm not a huge fan, so i've only gotten five or so
films into his filmography, but that's enough to make me think that his better work is in
need of the same sort of re-evaluation "slow" ozu or "boring" bresson have received with
the retrospectives they've been getting in the past few years.
-adam
seattle
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
>
> > I didn't "choose" Bergman, the name popped out on the thread. For starters,
> > let me say that I dearly love Scenes From a Marriage, From the Life of
> > Marionettes, Monika and some others.
>
>
18303
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Tropical Malady & new Contracampo issue
I saw it four times in the last two months, two in Rio, two in Sao Paulo.
It's not that difficult on the second try, and it gets really really really
(I could go on writing really) beautiful. Several Pasolinis remembered (on
the first half both of them play Ninetto; Porcile. It is together with Ten
and Elephant on my 00s best.
... And it's on the cover of the new Contracampo issue... Interviews with
Manoel de Oliveira, Nicolas Klotz (fabulous La Blessure), Lisandro Alonso
(didn't like it that much, but has moments) and Mania Akbari (the
actress-conductor in Kiarostami's Ten, who made her feature debut with 20
Fingers, which I loved) and thoughts on the 890734780634 films seen in two
festivals averaging 350 feature films each. Couldn't interview Kiarostami
himself but got his autograph and know I know how one writes Ruy in farsi.
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Tropical Malady
>
>
> Being in Paris for a few days gives you a whole new slant. Just saw
> the above: deep, difficult, gorgeous {when you can see it). Seeing
> the trailer for the new Techine just before aroused no desire to see
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
18304
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04am
Subject: Lipstick Killer Dies at 72
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041130/ap_en_ce/obit_barrymore
His greatest performance: "The Big Night"
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18305
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:41am
Subject: Re: Classical vs. Pop (Was: Hans Memling)
> as i didn't come across anything by bergman until almost two decades after his
> "retirement", i approached his films with a vague dread of allegory and pretension
that
> probably didn't have the bite that somebody living through the crossword puzzle-
criticism
> of the sixties would undoubtedly have endured. >snip<
I think you're right, Bergman was 'oversold' to an insane degree.
> but that's enough to make me think that his better work is in
> need of the same sort of re-evaluation "slow" ozu or "boring" bresson have
received with
> the retrospectives they've been getting in the past few years.
Monika, after all, inspires Pierrot le fou; it was that and
Sawdust and Tinsel/Clown's Twilight/The Naked Night
(take your pick of title) that got me pro Bergman after a long
abscence.... inspired to take that look by Fanny And Alexander.
P.S. I myself have never heard anyone say "boring" Bresson...
either they agree on his importance or they haven't
seen the films....
-Sam
18306
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:44am
Subject: Re: Tropical Malady
> Strand is releasing "Tropical Malady" early next year.
> Remarkable film.
That's good news !
(but what happened to the supposed release of "Blissfully Yours"
last year, I wonder...)
-Sam
18307
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:24am
Subject: Re: Classical vs. Pop (Was: Hans Memling)
On Monday, November 29, 2004, at 02:37 AM, Matt Teichman wrote:
> Craig Keller wrote:
>
>> Sometimes it will be 'Battle Hymn' and at other times it will be 'The
>> Silence,' but I have a hard time accepting the notion that, as a rule,
>> rhythm of gesture should "trump" more consciously intellectual theses
>> -- which are, to my mind, no less matters of cinema than, say, the
>> subconscious tension and emotional torque of an I.V.-rack in left
>> center frame. I argue for the presence and resonance of all of the
>> above, in equal parts, both in Sirk, and in Bergman.
>>
> Not sure what the argument is here. What do you have in mind when you
> speak of "consciously intellectual theses"?
Very simply, the impulse or impulses, on the conscious level, that
provoke a director into formulating a film -- interesting dramaturgical
ideas, philosophical or political "ideas," the quest for answers to
questions of any kind -- as opposed only to incidental or subconscious
"plastic" results onscreen. The dividing line here really is arbitrary
anyway -- separation between the two notions probably exists only as a
point of argument.
Classical versus pop: Have any of the younger people here seen the
'Speaking for Trees' DVD by Mark Borthwick, with Cat Power / Chan
Marshall? It's really boring and in spite of that quite good.
craig.
18308
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:25am
Subject: Re: Re: Tropical Malady
>
>> Strand is releasing "Tropical Malady" early next year.
>> Remarkable film.
>
> That's good news !
>
> (but what happened to the supposed release of "Blissfully Yours"
> last year, I wonder...)
I saw 'Mysterious Object at Noon' / 'Dogfahr in the Devil's Hands' two
days ago for the first time, and it completely annihilated me.
craig.
18309
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:34am
Subject: Dial "!" for Criterion
Criterion updated their "Coming Soon" page this evening with the
February releases:
-'Thieves' Highway' by Jules Dassin
(including a video interview with Dassin)
-'Night and the City' by Jules Dassin
(including another video interview with Dassin)
-'My Own Private Idaho' by Gus Van Sant [does the "v" get capitalized
when he's an American?]
(including new conversation, audio-only, between GVS and Todd Haynes,
and a making-of documentary)
-'La commare secca' by Bernardo Bertolucci
(including interview with Bertolucci)
and, the atom-bomb release, at least for this humble soul:
'Tout va bien' + 'Letter to Jane' by Jean-Luc Godard and Jean-Pierre
Gorin
(including excerpt of a 1972 video interview with JLG, and a new video
interview with Jean-Pierre Gorin)
Cover design and other details can be clicked around upon at --
http://www.criterionco.com/asp/coming_soon.asp
craig.
18310
From: Adam Hart
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:55am
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
wow, that's really fantastic. i'm especially happy about My Own
Private Idaho.
So do the Godards coming out on dvd mean that someone will get
around to Weekend one of these days? Or put Pierrot le fou back into
print?
18311
From: Adam Hart
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:04am
Subject: "Black" Orpheus
Visiting my parents for Thanksgiving, I stopped into their local
chain video store (Hollywood). Now, there's normally a dorky giggle
here or there when I come across a video that's been woefully
misplaced by the clueless staff of underpaid high-schoolers, but
this takes the cake. Walking past the 'horror' section, one box
stood out. There was a double take or two before I confirmed that,
yes, Jean Cocteau's ORPHEUS was in the horror section.
The best part is realizing that when you have nothing but a 100-word
summary, ORPHEUS kind of does sound like a horror movie. Sort of.
-adam
18312
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 01:55 AM, Adam Hart wrote:
> So do the Godards coming out on dvd mean that someone will get
> around to Weekend one of these days? Or put Pierrot le fou back into
> print?
After Fox Lorber's license expired on 'Pierrot,' Criterion picked up
the rights for an eventual release. I'm assuming the same thing will
happen, a bit further in the future, with 'Breathless,' 'Le Petit
soldat,' 'Vivre sa vie,' 'Les Carabiniers,' and 'Prenom Carmen.'
Who has 'Week-end' right now in the U.S. is unclear -- it might be New
Yorker Video, although I pray it isn't, as the quality of their
releases is largely crap. Artificial Eye are releasing it soon on R2
PAL DVD in the UK, however. (Along with 'Sauve qui peut (la vie).')
'Pierrot le fou,' 'Made in U.S.A.,' and 'Deux ou trois choses que je
sais d'elle' are due out in the UK (in a box set, not sure if separate
releases though) soon as well -- maybe even from Warner. (Or is it
Nouveaux Pictures? Can't remember. One of the two. I think the
latter, actually.) If they're separate releases, 'Made in U.S.A.' will
definitely be the one to pick up, as my understanding is the American
rights have been fucked-up for that film forever. Ditto 'Une femme
mariée.'
I suppose it's worth reminding that Rialto will be re-releasing new
35mm prints of 'Masculin-Feminin' and 'Deux ou trois choses...' here in
the U.S. at some point (although they've been sitting on their
"forthcoming" list forever -- indeed, with the exception of 'The Battle
of Algiers,' 'Godzilla' and most recently the re-release of 'Hearts and
Minds,' Rialto's theatrical releases have kind of been slowing down...
or maybe that's just in my head). And Rialto theatrical release means
forthcoming Criterion release. Except in the case of 'Godzilla,' as
Toho's licensing on that "property" were/are very strict. Not sure
who's releasing it yet in the U.S., though I'm not terribly interested
in investigating.
craig.
18313
From:
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:43am
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
Craig Keller:
>
> Criterion updated their "Coming Soon" page this evening with the
> February releases:
>
...
>
> -'La commare secca' by Bernardo Bertolucci
> (including interview with Bertolucci)
>
An odd choice for a Bertolucci, I'd say, but I guess the rights were
available. (Cue the critical reassessments!) I guess that laserdisc
Criterion released of LAST TANGO will forever be a collector's item.
And there's probably little hope of Paramount ever doing THE
CONFORMIST or 1900 any justice. Drat.
-Bilge
18314
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:15pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> -'My Own Private Idaho' by Gus Van Sant [does the
> "v" get capitalized
> when he's an American?]
> (including new conversation, audio-only, between GVS
> and Todd Haynes,
> and a making-of documentary)
>
Great to hear they got the "making of" documentary. I
was involved in this project to some extent as they
were going to use my audio interview with River. A
very interesting guy named Matt Ebert shot the "making
of." He was an assistant on "Dogfight"and became a
friend of River's. Everyone was living at Gus' house
during the shooting. And by everyone I don't just mean
the principle actors and crew but the entire extended
Van Sant family. The footage Matt shot is higlighted
by a sequence in which River talks with Mike Waters --
the actual hustler on whom his character was based.
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18315
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> 'Made in U.S.A.' will
> definitely be the one to pick up, as my
> understanding is the American
>rights have been fucked-up for that film forever.
That's because Georges de Beauregard never paid for
the rights to the book on which it was based -- "The
Jugger" by Richard Stark aka Donald Westlake. A number
of years ago (I forget where) Westlake wrote a very
funny article about the situation, as he didn't want
to be accused of standing in Godard's way. it was a
simple matter of making the necessary payment. But the
film was a flop with no real future and no one was
interested in going through the motions. He noted it
was funny that his anti-hero Parker (the book was one
of a series) had been played on screen by Lee Marvin,
Jim Brown, Robert Duvall, and Anna Karina.
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18316
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- ebiri@a... wrote:
>
> An odd choice for a Bertolucci, I'd say, but I guess
> the rights were
> available. (Cue the critical reassessments!)
Gladly. It's a really teriffic film. "Before the
Revolution" is always seen as his "first" but this
precedes it. It's based on several Pasolini stories
and is highlighted by Allen Midgette's most extended
perfomance in a Bertolucci film.
Now who has the rights to "Partner" ?
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18317
From:
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:25pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
For a director who was at least once considered the toppermost of the
poppermost, Bertolucci seems to have an inordinate number of movies
that have slipped through the cracks (not to mention that only one of
his pre-1990 movies is available on DVD). After watching THE
DREAMERS, I thought I'd see what BB was actually up to in 1968, and
when I went to the local vidstore to rent PARTNER. I was told to look
in the sell pile -- as a movie that hadn't rented in more than a
year, it was classified as "dead stock" and removed from inventory.
But it's a fairly stunning film -- a (loose, loose) adaptation of
Dostoevsky's The Double with Pierre Clementi in both roles which,
among other things, offers viewers instructions on how to make a
gasoline bomb -- albeit a nonfunctional one. I daresay if more
critics were familiar with Bertolucci's earlier work, DREAMERS might
not have gotten the drubbings it did -- his style may have gotten
more louche, the movie's thematically a piece with at least most of
his movies up until LAST TANGO, many of which focus on unsuccessful
revolutionaries betrayed by their primal urges. Don't think I was on
the list in February, so BB got more respect on this list than
elsewhere.
My pick for reissue/reappraisal: SPIDER'S STRATEGEM.
>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:43:47 -0000
> From: ebiri@a...
>Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
>
>
>Craig Keller:
>>
>> Criterion updated their "Coming Soon" page this evening with the
>> February releases:
>>
>...
>>
>> -'La commare secca' by Bernardo Bertolucci
>> (including interview with Bertolucci)
>>
>
>An odd choice for a Bertolucci, I'd say, but I guess the rights were
>available. (Cue the critical reassessments!) I guess that laserdisc
>Criterion released of LAST TANGO will forever be a collector's item.
>And there's probably little hope of Paramount ever doing THE
>CONFORMIST or 1900 any justice. Drat.
>
>-Bilge
18318
From: Adam Hart
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:57pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:
> For a director who was at least once considered the toppermost of
the
> poppermost, Bertolucci seems to have an inordinate number of
movies
> that have slipped through the cracks (not to mention that only one
of
> his pre-1990 movies is available on DVD).
I'm not sure how it is elsewhere, but I'd say that Italian cinema in
general is basically ignored in America. Besides some superstar
directors (and, like you were saying, even Bertolucci's hard to get
a hold of), only a handful of films really get the proper attention.
Considering their place in film history, everyone from Rossellini
and de Sica to Bellochio and Bertolucci and today Nanni Moretti and
Gianni Amelio are all pretty much overlooked. I'd go so far as to
say that most relatively knowledgeable film watchers in the states
would only have seen a handful of Italian films: Bicycle Thieves, La
Dolce Vita, Life Is Beautiful and Cinema Paradiso.
Perhaps that's an exagerration, but not by much. And I have no idea
why this is true.
18319
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:08pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
> So do the Godards coming out on dvd mean that someone will get
> around to Weekend one of these days? Or put Pierrot le fou back into
> print?
The International House in Philly showed a 35mm print of Pierrot in
October, although I missed it.
They've got "India Song" on Dec 15, hope i can make that show !
(stoned or not ;-)
-Sam
18320
From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
> My pick for reissue/reappraisal: SPIDER'S STRATEGEM.
Yes, but it doesn't need a reappraisal from me !
BTW "The Conformist" will get a DVD release I think because I'm
pretty sure I read an article (American Cinematographer ?) about
Storaro supervising the color grading.....
It'll be hard NOT to think of the Technicolor IB prints I've seen of
The Conformist, though... (speaking of, I saw a beautiful Tech IB
print last night.... a Canada Dry ginger ale 35mm theatrical commercial !)
-Sam W.
18321
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:41pm
Subject: Kitano's "Dolls" limited release in the US
Kitano's beautiful tale of impossible love, Dolls, will from December
10th, 2004, be released theatrically in the USA by Palm Pictures.
Dolls is, to date, Kitano's most complex work, being an adaptation of
Japanese playwright Chikamatsu's themes of impossible love and double
suicide, comtemporized and told thru three interwoven stories.
Breathtaking beautiful in its colour composition, Dolls is amongst the
most original films ever to come out of Japan.
Palm Pictures will begin their limited release, December 10th, 2004,
at Cinema Village, New York, then continue with three further
screenings. The schedule is as follows:
Cinema Village, New York [December 10 to ??]
Northwest Film Forum, Seattle [January 21 to 27]
Music box, Chicago [February 4 to 10]
Museum of Fine Art, Boston [February 10 to 20]
Palm Pictures will release Dolls on DVD in the USA during the spring
of 2005, no date set at the moment.
Check http://www.kitanotakeshi.com/kitanonews.html for links to the
theatres and ticket reservation.
Henrik
18322
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:47pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:
> For a director who was at least once considered the toppermost of
the
> poppermost, Bertolucci seems to have an inordinate number of
movies
> that have slipped through the cracks (not to mention that only one
of
> his pre-1990 movies is available on DVD).
I didn't care for The Dreamers and I never liked Last Tango in
Paris, but The Sheltering Sky (1990) is a sadly underrated,
endlessly fascinating and visually gorgeous film.
18323
From:
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:54pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
> For a director who was at least once considered the toppermost of
the
> poppermost, Bertolucci seems to have an inordinate number of
movies
> that have slipped through the cracks (not to mention that only one
of
> his pre-1990 movies is available on DVD). After watching THE
> DREAMERS, I thought I'd see what BB was actually up to in 1968,
and
> when I went to the local vidstore to rent PARTNER. I was told to
look
> in the sell pile -- as a movie that hadn't rented in more than a
> year, it was classified as "dead stock" and removed from
inventory.
Yeah, it's really sad. BB's best films -- THE CONFORMIST, SPIDER'S
STRATAGEM, 1900, and BEFORE THE REVOLUTION -- aren't available on
DVD here, and only have had cursory video releases. THE CONFORMIST
is still that old dubbed version I cut my teeth on as a teen
(although it's actually quite well dubbed), 1900 is still the old 4
hour version (the Brits put it out in a full version in the 90s,
though, both subtitled and dubbed). Even the DVD of THE LAST EMPEROR
loks lousy technically -- some people prefer the old Japanese
laserdisc, believe it or not! It's sad that one of the most visually
spectacular filmmakers in history has to put up with this. If
*anyone*'s films deserve to be out in pristine DVD editions, it's
Bertolucci's.
I like PARTNER okay. I have a DVD-R of it I got off ebay, which was
probably made from the old, briefly available VHS of it. I had a
chance to view it again recently, and it holds up a bit better than
I had expected, especially given BB's revisitation of 1968 in THE
DREAMERS.
As for LA COMMARE SECCA, it's a fine film, but it's very much a
novice work, and lacks much of the expressiveness of BB's later
films. Of all the Bertolucci films to get the Criterion treatment...
But again, I'm not complaining.
-Bilge
18324
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
>
> They've got "India Song" on Dec 15, hope i can make that show !
> (stoned or not ;-)
>
> -Sam
As per BK, you should see it once stoned and once straight.
18325
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:11pm
Subject: Video gaps
It's not only Italian cinema and it's not only Bertolucci, and it's
not only early Godard. The last time I checked there were only three
Resnais films available on DVD in the US!
18326
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> I didn't care for The Dreamers and I never liked
> Last Tango in
> Paris, but The Sheltering Sky (1990) is a sadly
> underrated,
> endlessly fascinating and visually gorgeous film.
>
ienjoyed "the Dreamers" and quite liked "Last tango"
-- though Pauline Kael made far too much the alleged
"shock" of its first screening.I was there too, and it
was no "Le Sacre du Printemps," folks.
But "The Sheltering Sky" is indeed one of his very
best works. I think he got right to the heart of what
Bowles was up to -- particularly the way that Kit
subsumes the personality of the dead Port in order to
continue the journey. Bowles (who appears in the film
and provides a bit of narration) later claimed to have
disliked it, but I think it's because Bertolucci
"stole his Mojo."
Bertolucci is an Italian director by birth only.
Pasolini was of course an important menter, but then
so was Godard.In fact his "roots" are as much French
as Italain, which is why "The Conformist" with its
trip to Paris for the characters to"find themselves"
is so key.
Incidentally, Bertolucci cut the film after its first
New York Film Festival showings in 1970. I understand
that it has sicne been partially restored with the
great"Ballof the Blind" scene put back in.But can
anyone tell me if he's restored the cutting contuity
of the ending? As originally shown there was a shot of
hustler in the Colliseum climbing into his makshift
bed and exchanging glances with trintignant that
clearly indficated that the latter was about to join
him. The hustler shot was removed when the film wnet
into general release -- leaving only a shot of
Trintignant staring into the camera.
I've always taken this as a loss of nerve on
bertolucci's part.
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18327
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:34pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
"Bertolucci cut the film after its first New York Film Festival
showings in 1970. I understand that it has sicne been partially
restored with the great"Ballof the Blind" scene put back in.But can
anyone tell me if he's restored the cutting contuity of the ending?
As originally shown there was a shot of hustler in the Colliseum
climbing into his makshift bed and exchanging glances with
trintignant that clearly indicated that the latter was about to join
him. The hustler shot was removed when the film wnet into general
release -- leaving only a shot of Trintignant staring into the
camera."
Bertolucci cut the blind ball, shortened the ending, and removed
various other small bits and pieces after the NYF screening. At some
point (I think in the early 90s), he restored the ball sequence, but
nothing else. However, the 'original' version seems to have been used
for the German release - a really worn-out looking German-dubbed
print turned up on one of the German TV channels a few years back,
complete with the extra footage at the end. It doesn't really make it
clear that Trintignant is about to join the boy in bed (or at least
dosn't make this any clearer than it is the cut version), but does
place greater emphasis on Trintignant staring in fascination as the
boy takes off his clothes and climbs into bed.
18328
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
--- thebradstevens wrote:
It
> doesn't really make it
> clear that Trintignant is about to join the boy in
> bed (or at least
> dosn't make this any clearer than it is the cut
> version), but does
> place greater emphasis on Trintignant staring in
> fascination as the
> boy takes off his clothes and climbs into bed.
>
Yes that's the bit I was talking about -- and there
was more than mere "fascination" involved. It's clear
what's coming next.
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18329
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
"there was more than mere "fascination" involved. It's clear what's
coming next"
I agree. But I think that remains clear even in the cut version.
By the way, another rarity that sometimes turns up on late-night
German TV is the original desaturated color version of John Huston's
REFLECTIONS IN A GOLDEN EYE.
18330
From: Patrick Ciccone
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:04pm
Subject: Movies that take place in Hell
I resaw Ulmer's DETOUR last night, and it occurred to me that the film
could be taking place in Hell. While I guess there's nothing
explicitly Dantean about DETOUR (unlike the new JLG), the fog in which
the doomed Al Roberts and Sue walk in New York City reminds me of the
opening of Inferno:
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
ché la diritta via era smarrita.
MIDWAY upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.
Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!
Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.
From which Roberts descends into lower and lower circles. The glowing
jukebox also appears especially Satanic, a Hell within a Hell.
My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically or
literally) in Hell? I'm blanking, though it seems there should be tons
of obvious examples. The last two Bresson films, perhaps?
PWC
18331
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:17pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
"what other great films take place (metaphorically or literally) in
Hell? I'm blanking, though it seems there should be tons of obvious
examples. The last two Bresson films, perhaps?"
One of my ex-girlfriends insisted that David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY
took place in Hell, and that the characters were spending eternity
reenacting the crimes which brought them there.
18332
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:27pm
Subject: Bernal and Brocka
Anyone here ever find a way to see the films of these classic Filipino
directors?
I can't find any trace of subtitled (in English or French) videos (or
DVDs).
MEK
18333
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
> One of my ex-girlfriends insisted that David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY
> took place in Hell, and that the characters were spending eternity
> reenacting the crimes which brought them there.
That's huge! Because if so then MULHOLLAND DRIVE is the prequel: a suicide
after the girl discovers the she had her girlfriend-lover-betrayer killed!
----- Original Message -----
From: "thebradstevens"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 3:17 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Movies that take place in Hell
>
>
> "what other great films take place (metaphorically or literally) in
> Hell? I'm blanking, though it seems there should be tons of obvious
> examples. The last two Bresson films, perhaps?"
>
> One of my ex-girlfriends insisted that David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY
> took place in Hell, and that the characters were spending eternity
> reenacting the crimes which brought them there.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
18334
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:13pm
Subject: Re: Video gaps
Although if you have a multi-region player, Resnais is one of the best
represented directors on DVD, with nearly all of his work (including
many early shorts) available in France (though some of the latter titles
are unsubtitled).
Jonathan Takagi
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:11:08 -0000, jpcoursodon wrote:
> It's not only Italian cinema and it's not only Bertolucci, and it's
> not only early Godard. The last time I checked there were only three
> Resnais films available on DVD in the US!
18335
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 12:45 PM, Ruy Gardnier wrote:
>
>> One of my ex-girlfriends insisted that David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY
>> took place in Hell, and that the characters were spending eternity
>> reenacting the crimes which brought them there.
>
> That's huge! Because if so then MULHOLLAND DRIVE is the prequel: a
> suicide
> after the girl discovers the she had her girlfriend-lover-betrayer
> killed!
Although more than the hired-kill driving her to the suicide, it's her
failure in attaining the "Hollywood Dream" -- if things had gone
differently after she came out to L.A., she might not have had so much
emotional investment in the relationship with Harring. And it's just
these failed dreams and expectations met in a very skewed way that form
the broader mythology of the town, and make up that symbiotic
dream-land that is "Hollywood."
craig.
18336
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:52pm
Subject: Re: Video gaps
Is "Je T'Aime Je T'Aime" available?
--- Jonathan Takagi wrote:
> Although if you have a multi-region player, Resnais
> is one of the best
> represented directors on DVD, with nearly all of his
> work (including
> many early shorts) available in France (though some
> of the latter titles
> are unsubtitled).
>
> Jonathan Takagi
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:11:08 -0000, jpcoursodon
> wrote:
>
> > It's not only Italian cinema and it's not only
> Bertolucci, and it's
> > not only early Godard. The last time I checked
> there were only three
> > Resnais films available on DVD in the US!
>
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18337
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
And that's how David Lynch accomplishes his own Sunset Blvd. And people keep
saying it doesn't make sense!
Great we agree on that one, Craig (after 29 Palms, Bergman... and Vera Drake
and Sideways, which I don't like at all).
Another hell (of a) movie is Lost Highway's matrix KISS ME DEADLY.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Keller"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: Movies that take place in Hell
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 12:45 PM, Ruy Gardnier wrote:
> >
> >> One of my ex-girlfriends insisted that David Lynch's LOST HIGHWAY
> >> took place in Hell, and that the characters were spending eternity
> >> reenacting the crimes which brought them there.
> >
> > That's huge! Because if so then MULHOLLAND DRIVE is the prequel: a
> > suicide
> > after the girl discovers the she had her girlfriend-lover-betrayer
> > killed!
>
> Although more than the hired-kill driving her to the suicide, it's her
> failure in attaining the "Hollywood Dream" -- if things had gone
> differently after she came out to L.A., she might not have had so much
> emotional investment in the relationship with Harring. And it's just
> these failed dreams and expectations met in a very skewed way that form
> the broader mythology of the town, and make up that symbiotic
> dream-land that is "Hollywood."
>
> craig.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
18338
From: Peter Henne
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Dial "!" for Criterion
I am as grateful as I am stunned about Criterion's "Tout Va Bien"/"Letter to Jane" news. The political tableaux, meat butchery, planar tracking shots, and leading role of a well-known "sexy" actress in "Tout Va Bien" all refer back to practices of "Weekend." Try to imagine making sense of the later film without having seen the earlier one. "Tout Va Bien" relies on a pretty good working knowledge of Godard ("Contempt" too). Maybe the release harbinges the beginning of US companies FINALLY getting past the "early Godard" mystique and delving into the 1966-1975 period. But it's an odd way to start, near the end. And I hope that if Criterion's release flops it won't mean the end of releasing films of this time.
samfilms2003 wrote:
> So do the Godards coming out on dvd mean that someone will get
> around to Weekend one of these days?
-Sam
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18339
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
>
> And that's how David Lynch accomplishes his own Sunset Blvd. And
> people keep
> saying it doesn't make sense!
Yes. It's not an easy film, but nor is it totally arbitrary-opaque.
The first two-thirds of the film play as the compensation-dream (which
is at times prophetic?) in reaction to the reality of Watts's situation
-- but whether that dream is all being put together in Watts's
subconscious, or by the subconscious of Hollywood-as-Dreamer itself
(one glimpse into the akashic records that make up the tapestry of the
myth-land), I'm not quite sure. It's easily my favorite American film
of the decade so far.
> Great we agree on that one, Craig (after 29 Palms, Bergman... and Vera
> Drake
> and Sideways, which I don't like at all).
But I haven't seen either 'Vera Drake' or 'Sideways' yet! Lots of
others on here though have spoken highly of both.
craig.
18340
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
From: "Craig Keller"
To:
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: Movies that take place in Hell
> myth-land), I'm not quite sure. It's easily my favorite American film
> of the decade so far.
Right there with Elephant, Mystic River, The Village, Stuck on You...
> But I haven't seen either 'Vera Drake' or 'Sideways' yet! Lots of
> others on here though have spoken highly of both.
Sorry then. I assumed from your exchange with Dan that you did. The only
thing I felt good about Sideways was that it made me write the word
"sommelier" (in portuguese "enólogo") for the first time in a review. :)
18341
From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:50pm
Subject: Wine Country (was: Movies that take place in Hell)
> Sorry then. I assumed from your exchange with Dan that you did. The
> only
> thing I felt good about Sideways was that it made me write the word
> "sommelier" (in portuguese "enólogo") for the first time in a review.
> :)
I still think you've got the wrong person... someone else must have
been talking about 'Sideways'! In any case, I do want to see it, but
my expectations aren't that high. I'm more interested in seeing
'Mondovino'!
craig.
18342
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:57pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ciccone"
wrote:
>
>
> My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically or
> literally) in Hell? I'm blanking, though it seems there should be
tons
> of obvious examples. The last two Bresson films, perhaps?
>
> PWC
ALL of Lynch's films take place in hell, at least metaphorically.
Hellzapoppin' starts in hell (a Sadean image of women being broiled
on spits in the devils' rotisserie), Kiss Me deadly ends in hell.
Hitchcock's Rope takes place in hell (see my article -- English
version -- on the film in the current ROUGE issue. Original
subtitle -- not used for the translation --: "Plaisirs de l'enfer,
enfer du plaisir."
JPC
18343
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:05pm
Subject: Re: Video gaps
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Is "Je T'Aime Je T'Aime" available?
>
> It's "Je taime, je t'aime" David! Don't you read my posts?
18344
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:53pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
> My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically
or
> literally) in Hell?
DECONSTRUCTING HARRY, SOUTH PART: BIGGER, LONGER,
UNCUT, BARTON FINK, and the masterpiece LITTLE NICKY.
I'm sure there are many more.
Gabe
18345
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:03pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ciccone"
wrote:
>
>> My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically or
> literally) in Hell? I'm blanking, though it seems there should be
tons
> of obvious examples. The last two Bresson films, perhaps?
>
> PWC
The Shining, certainly...
18346
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:26pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Michael Simpson's IMPURE THOUGHTS is a real sick puppy of a film that
takes place in purgatory. It seems to have been made from an orthodox
Catholic perspective (ie. extramarital sex is something that will be
punished in the afterlife). Simpson went on to make two NIGHTMARE
VACATION sequels, so it's difficult to know how serious he could have
been about all this.
Uli Edel's PURGATORY is set in the same place.
I guess it could be argued that most film noirs take place in hell.
Then there's Monte Hellman's THE SHOOTING. And a surprising number of
porno films are set in a hell which is either literal (Damiano's
DEVIL IN MISS JONES, Francis Delia's NIGHTDREAMS) or metaphorical
(Sayadian's CAFE FLESH).
18347
From:
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
"Inflation" (Cy Enfield) is a short starring Edward Arnold as Satan, busy
causing inflation on Earth (bet Alan Greenspan and the Fed agree). Arnold was the
Ugly Capitalist in Frank Capra's "You Can't Take It With You" and other
films, so this very strange economics lesson of a movie is not that big a stretch
for him.
Then there are "The Sorrows of Satan" (D.W. Griffith) and "Leaves from
Satan's Book" (Dreyer).
"Father Knows Best" had a particularly creepy episode in the 1950's in which
the various family members make a pact with the devil to sell their souls.
This was a standby of old TV. Wonder if this episode was directed by FKB house
director Peter Tewksbury (very talented guy!).
Both "Independence Day" and "Hulk" were so depressing that I thought I was in
hell when watching them at the theater. Nuclear weapons should NOT be used
for entertainment, the way these two films do.
Mike Grost
"Hell is a city much like London" - Shelley, "Peter Bell the Third"
(this was in the 1820's, so things might be better there now!)
18348
From:
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
In a message dated 04-11-30 18:31:21 EST, Brad Stevens writes:
<< I guess it could be argued that most film noirs take place in hell. >>
On my website, I argure the exact opposite. Many film noir classics are
actually pictures of an urban paradise: Gleaming buildings, sharp clothes,
adventure, excitement, glamor, romance - urban life as the peak experience of
existence.
Mike Grost
18349
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 0:23am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Well, there's that chute to hell in Heaven Can Wait (it seems like
I'm referencing this every week!). There are several scenes in hell
in Cabin in the Sky, but all we see is an office. Archie Mayo fans
[?] will recall Claude Rains in hell in Angel On My Shoulder.
Losey's Don Giovanni? Bedazzled? Murnau's Faust?
--Robert Keser
18350
From: Peter Henne
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 1:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
What about "Touch of Evil"? Seems pretty hellish and substantially noirish.
MG4273@a... wrote:In a message dated 04-11-30 18:31:21 EST, Brad Stevens writes:
<< I guess it could be argued that most film noirs take place in hell. >>
On my website, I argure the exact opposite. Many film noir classics are
actually pictures of an urban paradise: Gleaming buildings, sharp clothes,
adventure, excitement, glamor, romance - urban life as the peak experience of
existence.
Mike Grost
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18351
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:19am
Subject: Hell!?
Of course there is no such thing as "hell" so maybe a definition
would be helpful before we start (or continue) discussing the
presence of such a concept in movies. Metaphorical hell is
ubiquitous so we can list any number of movies; and "real" hell
is... what you get to at the bottom of that chute in "Heaven Can
Wait" -- not something you really want to seriously discuss at
length.
Next subject: Heaven in movies. Bring on the Lists...
JPC
18352
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:12am
Subject: Re: Hell!?
"A Matter of Life and Death"
"Heaven Can Wait" (Lubitsch & Beatty versions)
"Carousel"
They're the first that come to mind.But before we go
any further -- a song by Irving Berlin:
"Oh
I got a message from below
'Twas from a man I used to know
About a year or so ago
Before he departed
He
Is just as happy as can be
I'll tell you what he said to me
He said, "If ever you get heavy-hearted
Pack up your sins and go to the devil in Hades
You'll meet the finest of gentlemen and the finest of
ladies
They'd rather be down below than up above
Hades is full of thousands of
Joneses and Browns, O'Hoolihans, Cohens and Bradys
You'll hear a heavenly tune that went to the devil
Because the jazz bands
They started pickin' it
Then put a trick in it
A jazzy kick in it
They've got a couple of old reformers in Heaven
Making them go to bed at eleven
Pack up your sins and go to the devil
And you'll never have to go to bed at all
If you care to dwell where the weather is hot
H-E-double-L is a wonderful spot
If you need a rest and you're all out of sorts
Hades is the best of the winter resorts
Paradise doesn't compare
All the nice people are there
They come there from ev'rywhere
Just to revel with Mister Devil
Nothing on his mind but a couple of horns
Satan is waitin' with his jazz band
And his band came from Alabam' with a melody hot
No one gives a damn if it's music or not
Satan's melody makes you want to dance forever
And you never have to go to bed at all!"
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> Next subject: Heaven in movies. Bring on the
> Lists...
>
> JPC
>
>
>
>
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18353
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: Hell!?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> "A Matter of Life and Death"
>
> "Heaven Can Wait" (Lubitsch & Beatty versions)
>
> "Carousel"
>
Yes yes, but, David, I wished you hadn't taken me so literally.
Is the Berlin Song "Pack Up Your Sins and Go to the Devil"
from "The Music Box Revue " of 1922?
"Heaven, I'm in heaven, and my heart beats so that I can hardly
speak." (that's a bit less obscure!)
> >
Next subject: Heaven in movies. Bring on the
> > Lists...
> >
> > JPC
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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18354
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:06am
Subject: Re: Classical vs. Pop (Was: Hans Memling)
Craig Keller wrote:
>Very simply, the impulse or impulses, on the conscious level, that
>provoke a director into formulating a film -- interesting dramaturgical
>ideas, philosophical or political "ideas," the quest for answers to
>questions of any kind -- as opposed only to incidental or subconscious
>"plastic" results onscreen. The dividing line here really is arbitrary
>anyway -- separation between the two notions probably exists only as a
>point of argument.
>
>
That's what made me scratch my head--there seems to be something strange
about restricting the province of the intellectual to "theses";
certainly rhythms and gestures can be as intellectual as anything else
(and theses as unintellectual).
To unjustly butcher what you appeared to be saying, I was getting the
whiff of something like "Bergman's films have profound dialogue and
banal mise-en-scene; Sirk's films have trivial dialogue and superb
mise-en-scene, but who's to say that dialogue is any less cinematic a
concern than mise-en-scene?" Obviously ridiculous, but I'm not going to
argue against it, because it probably wasn't what you meant.
-Matt
18355
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Umm, at the risk of sounding schoolmarmish, wake up, people! Cinema does
not only consist of films made with crews and sets and union actors
wandering around talking in lip-sync.
The obvious examples: "Hell Itself" and "Hell Spit Flexion" by Stan
Brakhage. These are the first two parts of a four part series called,
er, "The Dante Quartet." And I can assure you that unlike many
Hollywood directors who make films of books they've not read, Brakhage
actually *did* read the book. And they're on the "!" Criterion DVD.
There are a few stills from "Hell Itself" at
http://www.fredcamper.com/Film/BrakhageS.html#HellItself
Following JPC, I'm sure Brakhage would say he was trying to make visual
metaphors for hell, since his whole oeuvre argues against the idea of
literal depictions, even when he does seem to be literally depicting
something.
Seconding Mike, I would express skepticism about saying that most film
noirs "take place" in hell. There's a difference between having
references to a descent (as "Force of Evil" does), or references to
darkness, or echoes of "The Inferno," and an artist actually trying to
depict hell, even metaphorically. It seems more useful to say of a film
like "Detour" that it has allusions ot hell, or echoes of Dante, or that
on one level it can be seen as a dreamlike descent into hell. "On one
level" is different than "take place."
Fred Camper
18356
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hell!?
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Is the Berlin Song "Pack Up Your Sins and Go to
> the Devil"
> from "The Music Box Revue " of 1922?
>
Nothing gets by you, J-P !
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18357
From: jerome_gerber
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:39pm
Subject: Strange, stale programming on TCM in Feb
Turner Classic Movie channel has always been a pleasure for turning-up films in any given
month that haven't been gold-plated as "genunine" classics for the masses, films that have
not been seen by directors who must be seen, old gems that have been hidden away or
haven't beem shown in the likes of revival houses like the Film Forum or MoMA.
For the month of Feb, with only a few exceptions, the programming seems particularly
lean on rarities, rather it seems packed with the standard "warhorses," as usually seen on
AMC or a late-night network affiliate, or selections from a list compiled by the AFI.
Somehow their programmers have lost inspiration for me as if they were in rehearsal,
heaven forbid, for advertisers.
Anyone else have this feeling or am I overreacting? Is something going on over there? Has
their charter changed?
Jerry
18358
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
Seconding Mike, I would express skepticism about saying that most
film
> noirs "take place" in hell. There's a difference between having
> references to a descent (as "Force of Evil" does), or references
to
> darkness, or echoes of "The Inferno," and an artist actually
trying to
> depict hell, even metaphorically. It seems more useful to say of a
film
> like "Detour" that it has allusions ot hell, or echoes of Dante,
or that
> on one level it can be seen as a dreamlike descent into
hell. "On one
> level" is different than "take place."
>
> Fred Camper
Well, of course it's always a metaphorical "place" and a
metaphorical "taking place.'
18359
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
jpcoursodon wrote:
> Well, of course it's always a metaphorical "place" and a
> metaphorical "taking place.'
The distinction I'm trying to make, and I don't think it's a trivial
one, is between a scene full of smoke and with devils running around, a
scene meant to literally represent the place called "hell," and the trip
down to the Hudson in "Force of Evil" or the car ride(s) in "Detour."
Fred Camper
18360
From: George Robinson
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 3:36pm
Subject: Re: Strange, stale programming on TCM in Feb
February is their annual 28 Days of Oscar, so the schedule is pretty
lousy. The fault lies with the Academy, not with their programmers. Just
be glad the Oscars are now in February so you're not subjected to 31
days of this junk.
George Robinson
jerome_gerber wrote:
>Turner Classic Movie channel has always been a pleasure for turning-up films in any given
>month that haven't been gold-plated as "genunine" classics for the masses, films that have
>not been seen by directors who must be seen, old gems that have been hidden away or
>haven't beem shown in the likes of revival houses like the Film Forum or MoMA.
>
>For the month of Feb, with only a few exceptions, the programming seems particularly
>lean on rarities, rather it seems packed with the standard "warhorses," as usually seen on
>AMC or a late-night network affiliate, or selections from a list compiled by the AFI.
>
>Somehow their programmers have lost inspiration for me as if they were in rehearsal,
>heaven forbid, for advertisers.
>
>Anyone else have this feeling or am I overreacting? Is something going on over there? Has
>their charter changed?
>
>Jerry
>
>
18361
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Gloria in Excelcis
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Here's that Catherine Deneuve movie I was thinking
> about:
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078549/
>
> I've never seen it, but Jonathan Rosenbaum has and his
> description has always intrigued me.
I appreciate your crediting me for this, David. But I blush to admit
that I have no recollection of having seen Ecoute Voir--or any other
Hugo Santiago film, for that matter--and if I reviewed it, I don't
think it was for the Reader, because I can't find anything on the
database.
Jonathan
18362
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:43pm
Subject: Re: Hell!?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
"...Metaphorical hell is ubiquitous so we can list any number of
movies; and "real" hell is... what you get to at the bottom of that
chute in "Heaven Can Wait" -- not something you really want to
seriously discuss at length.
"Next subject: Heaven in movies. Bring on the Lists..."
If we include Indian cinema, the list for heaven in movies would run
into the thousands since virtually all movies based on classical
Indian literature have scenes that take place in heaven where
voluptious female angels dance for the enjoyment of the gods and
their viting human guests (depicted as a lavish production number
reminiscent of Busby Berkeley.)
The Asian heaven is rather different from its Western counterpart
inasmuchas it is also thought to be a temporary state of mind (ditto
for hell)not necessarily desireable. In the Asian scheme (or more
accurately shared Hindu and Buddhist cosmology) there are six realms
of existence including heaven and hell, the hungry ghost realm, the
animal realm, the human realm (the realm of the senses,) and the
jealous god realm. Again, these realms are also states of mind as
well as places so this schema covers the whole of cinematic subject
matter, and any lists based on it would be a matter of classifying
which movies belong to what category.
Richard
18363
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> jpcoursodon wrote:
>
>
> > Well, of course it's always a metaphorical "place" and a
> > metaphorical "taking place.'
>
> The distinction I'm trying to make, and I don't think it's a
trivial
> one, is between a scene full of smoke and with devils running
around, a
> scene meant to literally represent the place called "hell," and
the trip
> down to the Hudson in "Force of Evil" or the car ride(s)
in "Detour."
>
> Fred Camper
It's exactly what I was saying.
Since there is no such "place" as hell, its actual "representation"
must remain problematic. A scene full of smoke and with devils
running around has its place in slapstick comedy, I guess (I
mentioned the opening of "Hellzapoppin'") but who would consider a
serious representation of hell? Dante's Inferno in the eponymous
1935 Fox film is just a carnival sideshow...
JPC
18364
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Wasn't it Sartre who said that "Hell is watching Robert Redford's
ORDINARY PEOPLE"?
Pasolini's THE CANTERBURY TALES ends with a memorable tour through
Hell.
There's a Theodore Flicker directed episode of NIGHT GALLERY in which
a hippy goes to Hell, where a middle-class couple will show him their
holiday photos for all eternity. Flicker also appears as the Devil.
There was a nice John Brahm episode of THE TWILIGHT ZONE in which a
criminal ends up in an afterlife where all his desires are granted.
This proves to be so boring that the criminal begs to be sent to 'the
other place', only to be informed that 'this is the other place'.
I seem to recall that several Jose Mojica Marins films include
sequences in Hell.
18365
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
JPC,
I am *extremely* disappointed to learn that there really is no hell, as
my very survival for decades has partly depended on the ongoing thought
that certain people who shall remain nameless will wind up there.
Does this mean there is also no Santa Claus?
Seriously, while most Hollywood representations of hell may in fact be
the slapstick that you say they are, I still think there's got to be
some difference between claiming that "Detour" takes place in hell and
claiming that some Hollywood spectacle with devils and smoke and
tormented souls takes place in hell. The former claim seems more of a
metaphoric one than the latter. There's a difference a film that tries
to immerse the viewer in the illusion of a place, whether a real place
or not ("Shinbone," the town of "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance,"
wasn't a real place either), and a film whose milieu may suggest a place
it doesn't actually show, whether a real place or not.
Fred Camper
18366
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Gloria in Excelcis
This was in one of the columns you wrote for "Film
Comment." I'm surpised you don't remember it.
--- Jonathan Rosenbaum
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>
> wrote:
> > Here's that Catherine Deneuve movie I was thinking
> > about:
> >
> > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078549/
> >
> > I've never seen it, but Jonathan Rosenbaum has and
> his
> > description has always intrigued me.
>
> I appreciate your crediting me for this, David. But
> I blush to admit
> that I have no recollection of having seen Ecoute
> Voir--or any other
> Hugo Santiago film, for that matter--and if I
> reviewed it, I don't
> think it was for the Reader, because I can't find
> anything on the
> database.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
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18367
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:51pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> JPC,
>
> I am *extremely* disappointed to learn that there really is no
hell, as
> my very survival for decades has partly depended on the ongoing
thought
> that certain people who shall remain nameless will wind up there.
>
> Does this mean there is also no Santa Claus?
>
Not only that, but there is no heaven either. L'enfer c'est les
autres, as Robert Redford once said (although with an American
accent).
> Seriously, while most Hollywood representations of hell may in
fact be
> the slapstick that you say they are, I still think there's got to
be
> some difference between claiming that "Detour" takes place in hell
and
> claiming that some Hollywood spectacle with devils and smoke and
> tormented souls takes place in hell. The former claim seems more
of a
> metaphoric one than the latter. There's a difference a film that
tries
> to immerse the viewer in the illusion of a place, whether a real
place
> or not ("Shinbone," the town of "The Man Who Shot Liberty
Valance,"
> wasn't a real place either), and a film whose milieu may suggest a
place
> it doesn't actually show, whether a real place or not.
>
> Fred Camper
Fred we are in total agreement on that. I guess I expressed myself
poorly.
18368
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 8:52pm
Subject: Re: Hell!?
Coincidentally, I recently saw Nobuo Nakagawa's
cult film, "Hell" (Jigoku), from 1960, and it is
one of the most unique films I've ever come
across--it plays like a cross between Hammer
films and Luis Buñuel with a raucous jazz score.
About 3/4 of the way into the movie, time
literally stops and all of the decadent
bourgeoisie fall en masse into Hades, which
precipitates some of the most garish and
imaginative Grand Guinol I've ever seen. I'm not
generally attracted to sensationalistic Japanese
cult cinema, but this one is really something to
behold.
Doug
18369
From:
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Deep questions to ponder:
1) Does the Burger King commercial set to the tune of "Disco Inferno"
constitute a cinematic hell?
2) Does the fact that Kenneth Anger edits in footage of a Dante film into in
"Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome" count?
3) The only film whose demons ever seemed convincing is "Rosemary's Baby".
How does Polanski do this?
Mike Grost
18370
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 0:42am
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Deep questions to ponder:
> 1) Does the Burger King commercial set to the tune
> of "Disco Inferno"
> constitute a cinematic hell?
Anyone who eats at Burger King is going to Hell
> 2) Does the fact that Kenneth Anger edits in footage
> of a Dante film into in
> "Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome" count?
The entire film counts as does "Invocation of My Demon
Brother'
> 3) The only film whose demons ever seemed convincing
> is "Rosemary's Baby".
> How does Polanski do this?
>
By making them ordinary. The film is a logical
progression out of Val Lewton's "The Seventh Victim"
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18372
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Re: Gloria in Excelcis
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> This was in one of the columns you wrote for "Film
> Comment." I'm surpised you don't remember it.
>
> --- Jonathan Rosenbaum
> wrote:
I wasn't doing a column for Film Comment in 1979. By then I was
living in New York and Hoboken and writing "Moving Places". So it's
possible that you're thinking of a Paris Journal by Gilbert Adair
(who I see from the IMDB credits is in the film) or David Overbey--
unless I'm simply getting senile, which is also possible.
18373
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 2:17am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- MG4273@a... wrote:
>
> > Deep questions to ponder:
> > 1) Does the Burger King commercial set to the tune
> > of "Disco Inferno"
> > constitute a cinematic hell?
>
Is there an auteurist justification to discuss Burger King
Commercials on this Group?
> Anyone who eats at Burger King is going to Hell
>
Right David, but there are so many other sites that qualify as
metaphorical hell...
> > 2) Does the fact that Kenneth Anger edits in footage
> > of a Dante film into in
> > "Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome" count?
>
Dante film?? Which Dante? Haven't seen this very boring Anger
film in 40 years so please excuse my ignorance.
> The entire film counts as does "Invocation of My Demon
> Brother'
>
> > 3) The only film whose demons ever seemed convincing
> > is "Rosemary's Baby".
> > How does Polanski do this?
> >
>
> By making them ordinary. The film is a logical
> progression out of Val Lewton's "The Seventh Victim"
>
> David almost always gets it right.
>
> (please don't respond: "What do you mean, "almost"?")
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
18374
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Gloria in Excelcis
--- Jonathan Rosenbaum
wrote:
>
> I wasn't doing a column for Film Comment in 1979. By
> then I was
> living in New York and Hoboken and writing "Moving
> Places". So it's
> possible that you're thinking of a Paris Journal by
> Gilbert Adair
> (who I see from the IMDB credits is in the film) or
> David Overbey--
> unless I'm simply getting senile, which is also
> possible.
>
You know you're right -- it probably was Gilbert.
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The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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18375
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Dante film?? Which Dante? Haven't seen this very
> boring Anger
> film in 40 years so please excuse my ignorance.
>
"Dante's Inferno" -- also if memory serves something
from early DeMille.
The boredom of "Pleasure Dome" can be mediated by
select use of controlled substances.
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18376
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 3:24am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
"Dante film?? Which Dante? Haven't seen this very boring Anger
film in 40 years so please excuse my ignorance."
I think Mike is referring to DANTE'S INFERNO which you cited
earlier. But I think those few shots come from Rex Ingram's THE
MAGICIAN since that film was based Maugham's novel which was his take
on Aliester Crowley, and of course Anger was and still is a
Crowleyite.
Richard
18377
From:
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 10:39pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
The 1966 version of "Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome" (Kenneth Anger) edits
in footage from an old Hollywood movie, reportedly "Dante's Inferno" (Harry
Lachman, 1935), a film I have never seen. The footage gets added to the
multiple superimpositions in the second half of Anger's film. I really like
Inauguration, but admittedly it is slower paced than some other Angers. Still it has
awesome color and a real sense of visual style.
As for the Burger King commercial, was just trying to add some humor to the
discussion. Disco is dead, "Disco Inferno" might be the campiest song title in
pop music of its era, and the Burger King commercial to the tune seems utterly
de trop. The plain looking commercial is pretty innocuous, and has little
cinematic interest at all. In fact, IMHO almost all commercials are just junk.
Every so often I try to watch one of those Greatest Commercials of the Year:
specials TV puts out, and always find myself totally bored and disappointed with
the commercials.
Mike Grost
18378
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 5:22am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
>
>
> > My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically
> or
> > literally) in Hell?
>
> DECONSTRUCTING HARRY, SOUTH PART: BIGGER, LONGER,
> UNCUT, BARTON FINK, and the masterpiece LITTLE NICKY.
>
> I'm sure there are many more.
>
> Gabe
"What Dreams May Come", lots of horror films: the "Hellraiser" and
"Nightmare on Elm Street" series being the most obvious, "Bedazzled",
"El Topo", "The Devil's Adovcate" (does Hell on Earth count?, cause
then many Vietnam-set films such as "Full Metal Jacket" and
"Apocalypse Now" could be mentioned), many Breillat films...
18379
From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:37am
Subject: Re: Bernal and Brocka
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
>
> Anyone here ever find a way to see the films of these classic
Filipino
> directors?
>
> I can't find any trace of subtitled (in English or French) videos
(or
> DVDs).
No, sadly very, very few of Brocka's films are available, and none
of Bernal's best. Not to mention Mike de Leon, Celso Ad. Castillo,
Mario O'Hara...
Posted something about Filipino films here:
http://journals.aol.com/noelbotevera/MyJournal/entries/543
that includes some links to where you can order Brocka's Maynila sa
Mga Kuko ng Liwanag and maybe some lesser Brocaks and Bernals.
Facets has Brocka's Macho Dancer and a quite good one, Orapronobis.
That's about it.
18380
From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:47am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
Filipino films that literally took place in hell include Efren C.
Pinon's "The Killing of Satan" (a cult classic, apparently, for
horror afficionados), and Gerardo de Leon's "Caridad" sequence
in "Fe, Esperanza, Caridad." That latter one is actually worth
looking at, about a nun seduced by the Devil who turns out to be his
match. Nice atmospheric filmmaking, but what I remember is the
Devil's Saturday Night Fever-style bedroom.
Metaphorically, Lino Brocka's "Maynila sa Mga Kuko ng Liwanag" is
the most beautifully presented vision of Manila as a lower circle of
Hell, with Mario O'Hara's "Bagong Hari" (The New King) as a close
second.
18381
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Bernal and Brocka
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
> No, sadly very, very few of Brocka's films are available, and none
> of Bernal's best. Not to mention Mike de Leon, Celso Ad. Castillo,
> Mario O'Hara...
Thanks for the information. It's sad to see that there hasn't been
any real improvement in this respect since the last time you answered
this question for me (a couple of years ago -- on the Ozu list, I
think). ;~}
Michael Kerpan
Boston
18382
From: acquarello2000
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 1:53pm
Subject: Re: Bernal and Brocka
> Posted something about Filipino films here:
>
> http://journals.aol.com/noelbotevera/MyJournal/entries/543
>
> that includes some links to where you can order Brocka's Maynila sa
> Mga Kuko ng Liwanag and maybe some lesser Brocaks and Bernals.
> Facets has Brocka's Macho Dancer and a quite good one, Orapronobis.
FYI - I tried to order "Manila in the Claws of Light" earlier this
year from Kabayan Central and they eventually cancelled my order
saying that the studio has decided to discontinue selling copies of
the film. It's no longer listed on their new site. You may want to
contact them first to see if they can still get it.
"Orapronobis" is quite melodramatic for my taste (which is I guess
true of Brocka in general), but the passion and sense of social
justice is commendable. The VHS says Spanish with English subs, but
it is actually in Tagalog with English subs (incidentally, Spanish
fluency isn't really going to help decipher Tagalog).
Lamberto Avellana is pretty good too. His film "Badjao: The Sea
Gypsies" is atypical in that the culture is (tribal) Moro rather than
Catholic. The LVN release has English subs.
acquarello
18383
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> >
> >
> > > My question: what other great films take place (metaphorically
> > or
> > > literally) in Hell?
> >
> > DECONSTRUCTING HARRY, SOUTH PART: BIGGER, LONGER,
> > UNCUT, BARTON FINK, and the masterpiece LITTLE NICKY.
> >
> > I'm sure there are many more.
> >
> > Gabe
>
> "What Dreams May Come", lots of horror films: the "Hellraiser" and
> "Nightmare on Elm Street" series being the most
obvious, "Bedazzled",
> "El Topo", "The Devil's Adovcate" (does Hell on Earth count?, cause
> then many Vietnam-set films such as "Full Metal Jacket" and
> "Apocalypse Now" could be mentioned), many Breillat films...
And The Devil in Miss Jones.
18384
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Lipstick Killer Dies at 72
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041130/ap_en_ce/obit_barrymore
>
> His greatest performance: "The Big Night"
I didn't see that one, but I did like him in High School
Confidential, where he improvises a hipster rap in one of the
classroom scenes. He's clearly where Drew got it from.
For those interested, William Heirens, the boy convicted of the
Lipstick Muders in Illinois in 1946, is still alive -- a few years
older than Barrymore -- and most recently petitioned Gov. Ryan for
clemency in 2002. Many believe that he was railroaded by the cops
and...yes...the press. His petition can be accessed at
texhttp://64.233.161.104/search?
q=cache:hjtbyUzS0GQJ:www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/do
cuments/Heirenspetition.pdf+%22william+heirens%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8t
The book that inspired While the City Sleeps, The Spur, was based on
the Heirens case, which Lang had followed at the time it was
happening because of Heirens' Nazi regalia collection. Like De Salvo,
the man convicted of the Boston Strangler murders (who may also have
been innocent), Heirens had a split personality. His other
personality was named Murman = Murder Man. Maybe Heirens is just
pissed because, as Buddy Love would say, they didn't sentence him to
half the time and "the other guy" to half -- he'd have been out long
ago!
The only book on the subject, by a sympathetic investigator of that
period who believed Heirens was railroaded, is called "Before I Kill
More," from the actual message the killer left at one of the crime
scenes, famously replicated in Lang's film.
18385
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 10:27pm
Subject: Biopics (WAS: Re: A Very Long...) (Hawks & Air Force)
> Dear Fred,
I've been rather late in replying to your post since I wanted to
look up a recent article by Greg M. Smith, "Moving Explosions:
Metaphors of Emotion in Sergei Eisenstein's Writings," QUARTERLY
REVIEW OF FILM AND VIDEO 21.4 (2004): 303-315, which concludes
that "Emotions not only operate at all levels of the cinema but they
also crucially govern the transitions between levels. Eisenstein's
reorientation makes him see the emotions as not merely the engine
upon which the cinematic mechanism depends. Emotion becomes both the
guiding principle upon which filmmakers make every artistic decision
and the ultimate aspiration for spectators." (315).
Tonight, I'm moving to the penultimate film in my Peckinpah class
CROSS OF IRON. I ran the whole of CLEMENTINE earlier to show the
Ford connection but wish I had now run the entire LIBERTY VALANCE
since I was also extremely moved by the 20 mins I ran. I had not
seen the film for five years but it was a really emotional
experience for me and something difficult to put into words of
objective analysis, whether in terms of genre or authorship. I felt
it was a great and moving film very much according to the ideas you
describe. But I also find the concept of emotions both in Eisenstein
and the poetic metaphoric use of montage in Peckinpah - explored by
Stephen Prince in SAVAGE CINEMA - also really valuable.
Thanks for raising these issues - again.
Tony Williams
> It's my claim that an overridingly great "aesthetic vision"
ultimately
> transcends and destroys any analysis. But when I think of films
that are, for me, at the
> limits of cinema's greatness -- "Sansho Dayu," "Voyage to
Italy," "Au
> Hasard, Balthazar," "Tabu," "The Tarnished Angels," "The Man Who
Shot
> Liberty Valance," "Lola Montes" (sticking to narrative films here
for
> the sake of this discussion) -- what's great about them seems to
me to
> obliterate talk of differences with genre,
directorial "stategies," et
> cetera. .
> The first time I saw "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," at maybe
18 but
> when I'd already seen and loved a bunch of other Fords, I
certainly
> noticed the film's more "critical" attitude toward Western myths
(not
> exactly a hard-to-decode subtext here), but the main thing I
remember
> was that the street lights, and even the elaborate curves of
Harvard's
> Carpenter Center (where I saw it), all looked like the vertical
wooden
> shacks in a John Ford town for a little while afterwards, the
film's
> transformative vision was that strong.
>
> then, you're mostly left just dazzled.
>
> Fred Camper
18386
From: thebradstevens
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:34pm
Subject: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
Ladies and gentlemen. The post you are about to read is true. The
names have been changed to protect the innocent.
Thursday, 11.34 PM. One of the UK's public domain channels has
started screening DRAGNET episodes directed by Jack Webb. As far as I
know, Webb directed every segment of this series.
Since I admired the Webb-directed films I'd managed to see (PETE
KELLY'S BLUES and -30-), I decided to give this series a try. Just
watched a 1953 episode entitled 'The Big Thief', and, without wishing
to make palpably absurd comparisons, I must say that it struck me a
astonishingly Bressonian - certainly more so than one has any right
to expect from a long-running 1950s TV cop show. Webb clearly loved
shooting conversations as a series of looming close-ups showing
impassive faces, and appears to have worked as hard as Bresson to
prevent his actors from expressing emotions. And the decision to use
an unmoving camera seems motivated by something other than necessity -
Webb's camera cuts to the view beneath a table as Joe Friday, his
partner, and a man who has just been robbed look at a piece of
evidence lying on the floor - but when the three men stand up, Webb
neither cuts to another angle nor moves his camera, instead remaining
on the characters' legs as they continue talking.
The result is really quite remarkable: everything is cut to the bone,
every scene constructed so that it conveys the necessary plot
information as quickly and efficiently as possible - yet Webb still
spends several minutes showing Friday and his partner talking to a
nervous expectant father, even though the entire scene in which this
character appears is superfluous to the plot. Taken together with the
number of shots that make striking use of small objects (such as a
telephone or a glass) at the forefront of the frame, the overall
impression is of a directorial style which, despite its obvious
limitations, is entirely coherent.
18387
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:39pm
Subject: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
>
> Since I admired the Webb-directed films I'd managed to see (PETE
> KELLY'S BLUES and -30-), I decided to give this series a try. Just
> watched a 1953 episode entitled 'The Big Thief', and, without
wishing
> to make palpably absurd comparisons, I must say that it struck me a
> astonishingly Bressonian - certainly more so than one has any right
> to expect from a long-running 1950s TV cop show.
There's a very interesting and detailed stylistic analysis of DRAGNET
(both the film and the TV show) by Thom Andersen in LOS ANGELES PLAYS
ITSELF--for me, the best film criticism on film to have emerged in
recent years--that compares Webb to Ozu (albeit somewhat
sarcastically, while discussing the political implications of Webb's
work). This showed at the last London Film Festival, by the way.
18388
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 11:43pm
Subject: Aviator
The first thing that struck me about THE AVIATOR -- which is as
dull and discombobulated as GANGS OF NEW YORK -- is that
it's a remake of 8 1/2 in many ways. The second thing that struck
me is that Leo DiCaprio is actually amazing as Hughes.
So I'll leave it at that for now. I wonder if others have seen it yet.
Gabe
18389
From:
Date: Thu Dec 2, 2004 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
Have never seen any of the 1950's Dragnet, but grew up watching Webb's 1960's
revival of the series, which follows an apparently identical format (in a
moment, the results of that trial!) Politically, this 60's series was often
considered right wing because of its attacks on drug use and the drug culture (plus
Sgt Friday's short haircut). But equating this with right wing politics in
any Bush sense might be very misleading.
There are moments in the LAPD movie "Code Two" (Fred Wilcox, 1953) that seem
Ozu like.
It is hard to see any of the numerous TV cop shows of the 1950's, because
they were filmed in black and white, and hence are not considered "commercial" to
show today. Some led to movie tie-ins: "China Smith" evolved into "World for
Ransom" (Robert Aldrich), and "The Lineup" gave rise to the Don Siegel film of
the same name. Both of these films are rich in visual style.
Mike Grost
PS: The 1990's public TV series "Mathnet", a Dragnet pastiche that follows
mathematician Sgt Monday and her partner as they solve math problems, is a gem.
I remember that Bill Krohn recommended this highly in an earlier post, too.
18390
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 5:35am
Subject: Re: Aviator
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
>
> The first thing that struck me about THE AVIATOR -- which is as
> dull and discombobulated as GANGS OF NEW YORK -- is that
> it's a remake of 8 1/2 in many ways.
Very astute. I assume the opening scene of the boy being bathed by
his mother and the maternal roles played by some of his subsequent
girlfriends is what suggested this parallel. Or did you have other
details in mind?
I didn't find it dull--although I agree somewhat
about "discombobulated".
18391
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 5:50am
Subject: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
> Have never seen any of the 1950's Dragnet, but grew up watching
Webb's 1960's
> revival of the series, which follows an apparently identical format
(in a
> moment, the results of that trial!)
I've also not seen any of the 50s Dragnet series, but remember the
60s Dragnet as being quite memorable and ostensibly similar to its
original incarnation. I seem to recall that there were an awful
number of episodes that didn't center around a particular crime, but
rather on the police procedures and training methods of the LAPD (and
according to imdb trivia, these episodes were used for
actual "training tools" for the real LAPD.) Depictions of 1960s
counterculture always made for laughable episodes, particularly ones
involving LSD and other drugs.
Webb would also use the same actors over and over again, always in
different roles, throughout the series (particularly an actress named
Virginia Gregg.) Some notable guest stars: Dick Miller, Cassavetes'
regular Val Avery, and Warhol's factory favorite Tom Baker.
-Aaron
18392
From: George Robinson
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 5:57am
Subject: Re: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
Not to mention Burt Mustin, the Old Geezer of all time.
g
Aaron Graham wrote:
>
>
>>Have never seen any of the 1950's Dragnet, but grew up watching
>>
>>
>Webb's 1960's
>
>
>>revival of the series, which follows an apparently identical format
>>
>>
>(in a
>
>
>>moment, the results of that trial!)
>>
>>
>
>I've also not seen any of the 50s Dragnet series, but remember the
>60s Dragnet as being quite memorable and ostensibly similar to its
>original incarnation. I seem to recall that there were an awful
>number of episodes that didn't center around a particular crime, but
>rather on the police procedures and training methods of the LAPD (and
>according to imdb trivia, these episodes were used for
>actual "training tools" for the real LAPD.) Depictions of 1960s
>counterculture always made for laughable episodes, particularly ones
>involving LSD and other drugs.
>
>Webb would also use the same actors over and over again, always in
>different roles, throughout the series (particularly an actress named
>Virginia Gregg.) Some notable guest stars: Dick Miller, Cassavetes'
>regular Val Avery, and Warhol's factory favorite Tom Baker.
>
>-Aaron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
--
Elective despotism is not the
government we fought for.
-- James Madison
18393
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 6:01am
Subject: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
"Have never seen any of the 1950's Dragnet, but grew up watching
Webb's 1960's revival of the series, which follows an apparently
identical format (in a moment, the results of that trial!)
Politically, this 60's series was often considered right wing
because of its attacks on drug use and the drug culture (plus
Sgt Friday's short haircut). But equating this with right wing
politics in any Bush sense might be very misleading."
I've seen both, and the 1950s version was much more minimal than the
revival. Also, the attacks were against the counter culture/youth
culture and one way of attacking it was to reduce it to the "drug
culture" (whatever that imprecise term may mean.) One thing I've
noticed about crime fiction since the 1950s is its use of bohemians
as criminals, beats in the '50s, hippies in the '60s (and the
homosexual villain was a stand-by since the '30s.) Ross Macdonald
was the honorable exception.
Another reason DRAGNET was associated with the right was Jack Webb's
anti-communism as expressed in the fantasy film he introduced and
which was shown in schools. It was called something like "When the
Communists Take Over America," and came to be regarded as low camp.
Here in Los Angeles during the '50s and '60s Webb was a prominent
supporter of conservative causes, for those who know this back story
taints the '60s show. Be that as it may, the 1950s DRAGNET has some
intelligent formal ideas working for it that make it worth viewing
again.
Richard
18394
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 6:17am
Subject: Re: Re: Jack Webb's DRAGNET
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
>
> I've seen both, and the 1950s version was much more
> minimal than the
> revival. Also, the attacks were against the counter
> culture/youth
> culture and one way of attacking it was to reduce it
> to the "drug
> culture" (whatever that imprecise term may mean.)
> One thing I've
> noticed about crime fiction since the 1950s is its
> use of bohemians
> as criminals, beats in the '50s, hippies in the '60s
> (and the
> homosexual villain was a stand-by since the '30s.)
> Ross Macdonald
> was the honorable exception.
>
I've always found the tough guy persona Webb developed
to be quite amusing in contrast with the character of
the assistant director, Artie, that he played in
"Sunset Boulevard" -- a metrosexual avant la lettre.
He was the guy Nancy Olson was going with before she
met and fell for William Holden's doomed
screenwriter-turned-kept-boy.
Of course the world ilder created for thatfilm was
infinitely tougher than any Webb could cocktail up for
"Dragnet."
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
18395
From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 7:04am
Subject: Re: Bernal and Brocka
There were some video stores back in 1992--Kino Videos or something,
in Manhattan--that actually carried VHS tapes of Brocka's and
Bernal's films, even Kidlat Tahimik, an indie filmmaker.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
>
> Thanks for the information. It's sad to see that there hasn't been
> any real improvement in this respect since the last time you
answered
> this question for me (a couple of years ago -- on the Ozu list, I
> think). ;~}
No--there's an Ozu list?! On yahoogroups, perhaps? I never knew...
18396
From: Noel Vera
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 7:10am
Subject: Re: Bernal and Brocka
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "acquarello2000"
wrote:
> FYI - I tried to order "Manila in the Claws of Light" earlier this
> year from Kabayan Central and they eventually cancelled my order
> saying that the studio has decided to discontinue selling copies of
> the film. It's no longer listed on their new site. You may want
to
> contact them first to see if they can still get it.
I hear the producer, Mike de Leon, will come out with a DVD.
Hopefully this comes to pass, and I can post it.
> "Orapronobis" is quite melodramatic for my taste (which is I guess
> true of Brocka in general), but the passion and sense of social
> justice is commendable. The VHS says Spanish with English subs,
but
> it is actually in Tagalog with English subs (incidentally, Spanish
> fluency isn't really going to help decipher Tagalog).
No, Tagalog is quite different from Spanish.
Orapronobis is agitprop--but very well made agitprop. Not one of
Brocka's best, but not a bad sample of his better works.
> Lamberto Avellana is pretty good too. His film "Badjao: The Sea
> Gypsies" is atypical in that the culture is (tribal) Moro rather
than
> Catholic. The LVN release has English subs.
Is this available online? I wasn't aware. My favorite Avellana would
be "Kundiman ng Lahi" (Song of the Race, 1959).
18397
From: Alexis Tioseco
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 7:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Bernal and Brocka
--- Noel Vera wrote:
> I hear the producer, Mike de Leon, will come out
> with a DVD.
> Hopefully this comes to pass, and I can post it.
Unfortunately, for one reason or another, Mike De Leon
has lost a bit of steam in regard to producing the
DVD's. It's quite a shame, I must say. He had made
test copies (or at least one), of "Maynila sa Mga Kuko
Ng Liwanag" complete with subtitle test fonts,
beautiful menu and packaging, and a brief test of the
color grading. The picture quality on the DVD is
stunning. Included was a short documentary on the
making of the film (featuring interviews with Brocka
and the principal cast, Bembol Roco and Hilda Koronel)
by scriptwriter Clodualdo 'Doy' Del Mundo. It was
meant to come out in a box set of DVD's that would
have included one of Mike's films "Kisapmata" or In
the Blink of an Eye (for which a test DVD was produced
as well), and a film each, I believe, by Lamberto
Avellana and Eddie Romero (or perhaps Gerardo De
Leon?).
I don't know Mike De Leon personally, but I will try
to get in touch with him. I think he would be
heartened to hear of the international interest in DVD
copies of these works.
18398
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 8:44am
Subject: Re: Aviator
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
> wrote:
> >
> > The first thing that struck me about THE AVIATOR -- which is as
> > dull and discombobulated as GANGS OF NEW YORK -- is that
> > it's a remake of 8 1/2 in many ways.
>
> Very astute. I assume the opening scene of the boy being bathed by
> his mother and the maternal roles played by some of his subsequent
> girlfriends is what suggested this parallel. Or did you have other
> details in mind?
>
> I didn't find it dull--although I agree somewhat
> about "discombobulated".
I liked it. Gangs of NY was drastically recut at Harvey Weinstein's
behest and was definitely discombobulated; this film is intact, and
quite good, I thought. DeCaprio is great, as usual, but I guess the
film stands or falls on what one makes of Blanchett -- I thought she
was delightful. I hear Hell's Angels is out on DVD - this film made
me want to see it. Trite though it is, Citizen Kane seems to me a
more apt reference than 8 1/2 - 8 1/2 is about an artist finding his
way, not about someone slipping into madness.
The digital simulation of two-strip Technicolor until 1935 -- much
discussed in the "below the line" screening I attended tonight -- is
one factor that makes this almost the only Hollywood in the Twenties
film I like (the genre has always struck me as our version of le mode
retro); another is the portrayal of the Coconut Grove as a den of
lions, with a no doubt accurate but rather scary singer presiding.
(HE'S a bit Fellinesque.) Scorsese's version of overlapping dialogue
in the Hepburn lunch party scene makes it as brutal as one of Jake
LaMotta's fights. All in all a pleasant surprise. I had almost
written this director off.
18399
From: Michael Brooke
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 10:42am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 989
On 1 Dec 2004, at 12:36, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> Murnau's Faust?
18400
From: Michael Brooke
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 10:51am
Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
On 1 Dec 2004, at 12:36, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> From: "Robert Keser"
> Subject: Re: Movies that take place in Hell
>
>
> Murnau's Faust?
Jan Svankmajer's 'Faust', definitely - and on a number of levels. I
haven't seen it for ages, but I recall both a deliberately hokey
depiction of the conventional notion of "hell", complete with hordes of
horned demons, and a much more complex rendition of contemporary Prague
as a Satanic labyrinth.
Svankmajer's work in general provides plenty of suitably hellish images
- the following titles spring to mind:
The Garden (1968) - a man lives in a house surrounded by a wall made up
of imprisoned human beings holding hands;
The Flat (1968) - a man trapped in a room where literally everything
contained within it flouts both his expectations and natural laws (taps
produce rocks instead of water, a glass of beer shrinks to a thimble in
transit to his lips, and then back again to an empty beer glass, and so
on);
Down to the Cellar (1983) - a little girl goes down to the cellar to
fetch some potatoes, which is transformed by her imagination into a
terrifying network of sinister corridors and lurking creatures;
The Pendulum, the Pit and Hope (1983) - a man is trapped in an endless
cycle of torture and escape by cowled monks;
Flora (1989) - a human figure made up of vegetables and tied to a bed
literally rots away while a pristine glass of life-preserving water
stands mere inches away;
Michael
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