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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
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21201
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:56am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> --- Saul Symonds wrote:
>
> I'm still
> > trying to find a copy of "Ciao, Federico!"....
>
> It'son the Criterion laserdics of "Fellini Satyricon"
> rather fascinating to watch Fellini work with Capucine
> -- who was constantly in need of reassurance. As
> Fellini adored women she'd come to the right auteur.
>
> "Fellini Satyricon" is especially relevant now in the
> wake of Stone's "Alexander" debacle. Fellini got there
> first with casual bisexuality, and the film was an
> enormous hit.
But it doesn't seem to be on their dvd release?? I think it came out
on VHS for a short period, but is out-of-print now - someone is sure
to have a copy they want to sell or trade.....
David, while I'm at it I was wondering if you knew of available copies
of Mario Sesti's "L'Ultima sequenza" which sounds equally fascinating.
21202
From: Doug Cummings
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:56am
Subject: "The Trial" versions?
Hi all,
I just purchased the pristine Studio Canal 2-disc French DVD of Welles'
"The Trial," and as some of you may know, it comes with two versions.
One from '63 and another from '84. But Milestone Film claims the most
recent restoration was David Pierce's edition in '98. Does anyone know
which version is definitive (if any of them) or what the differences
are? Or where I might track down this info?
Thanks,
Doug
21203
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:09am
Subject: Re: Best filmmaking of the 00s (Was Godard-Truffaut feud and Godard Trashing Van
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> You took the words right out of my mouth, Bill! Just a list is
> telling me nothing beyond "I loved those films."
And that's why everyone loves a highly annotated list.
21204
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- Saul Symonds wrote:
>
> David, while I'm at it I was wondering if you knew
> of available copies
> of Mario Sesti's "L'Ultima sequenza" which sounds
> equally fascinating.
>
>
I don't.
I saw it the other night at a Fellini event at the
Italian Cultual institute here in Los Angeles. It's a
compediumof stills from the sequence, which has Guido
and all the other characters from the film riding away
on a train. Fellini opted for the "8 1/2" ending we
now all know.But he used the train idea for the opning
of "City of Women."
>
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21205
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:26am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
wrote:
> Kate Manx is attractive - but I haven't seen "Private Property",
as it
> doesn't seem to be the easiest film to find a copy of.
A little anecdote about Kate, Saul. I may have told it before to
this group but if I did it was long before you joined... After my
rave about "Private Property" and Kate Manx was published a reader
wrote the magazine a letter saying that Kate was obviously a
transvestite (Manx = Man X, he explained)and that I was very naive
not to have noticed it. They published the letter and I responded
something cute about my latent homosexuality (remember we're talking
about 1960, and it was definitely not OK to be gay then).
Kate was the wife of the director -- Leslie Stevens, whose film
career was very short and strange. He filmed "Private Property" in
his own house for $60,000, a rare independent production in
1960. "Heroes' Island" is very impressive but I found "Incubus"
unwatchable (the dialogue is in esperanto). I saw Kate in a couple
of TV shows (an episode of Lassie) then she reportedly killed
herself. Of course two plays by Stevens were filmed -- The Marriage-
Go-Round and The War Lord. and of course he wrote Penn's "The left-
Handed Gun" based on the TV play. I don't know what to make of his
1987 comeback to direction with "Three Kinds of Heat," a grade B
Cannon production in which Victoria Bassett is vaguely reminiscent
of Kate (is this why he directed the film?). JPC
21206
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:28am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> > It's my favorite Fellini, and I never saw it on anything. But
> > there are as many or more Fellinis I don't like than Fellinis I
> > love.
>
> They don't play well on tv as a rule, though I'm sure you saw them
> all in first-run theatres.
Yes, all of them, of course! Those were the days...
21207
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:32am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> > there are as many or more Fellinis I don't like than Fellinis I
> > love.
>
> Which Fellini's don't you like?
La Dolce vita, Juliet of the Spirits, City of women are the three
I dislike most. being against Lists I'm not giving a complete list.
21208
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:35am
Subject: Old Directors & The 'Cahiers' Mafia (was Re: Rivette Trashing Minnelli, Too)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Peter Henne wrote:
> This strikes me as an oversimplification. Artists go through a
process of exploration. When abstract painters such as Kazimir
Malevich and Richard Diebenkorn returned to figurative painting, it
was not simply the case that they jettisoned all their old values.
They brought their own sensibility to realistic subjects. Artists also
question themselves--Kenneth Noland has spent his whole career doing
that, and it's led him to trying many new formats and allowing
gestural brushwork after decades of doing everything hard-edged. But I
can see a line of development in Noland's career; he has not simply
become a contradictory mess.
*****
Nor has Godard. And I take the apparent contradictions in his
statements both in interviews and in his films . . . declaring an end
to Cinema while still remaining a vital force within it . . . as a
sign of someone who doesn't pretend to know any of the answers, yet
isn't afraid to confront the questions posed by his work; not as an
indication that his thinking is hopelessly muddled or that he's given
over his life to a perpetual state of confusion (which the wording of
my post did indeed imply, sorry to say). Like all artists worthy of
the term, Godard's attitudes are ever-evolving. I just don't want to
be the one who has to keep track of which direction it evolves in or,
still worse, predict where it might go next.
For me, the same is true of Godard. When a voice (I believe it is a
voice-over) in "Helas Pour Moi" quotes Brialy's line in "A Woman Is a
Woman," "I can't tell if it's a comedy or a tragedy, but either way,
it's a masterpiece," and then mourns that he wishes he could tell the
difference, Godard is shooting a question at himself. If anything,
Godard moves on to
> stormier seas, not calmer ones. Critical self-examination allows an
artist (or anyone) to grow. And many great artists have seemingly
changed horses in mid-career, not only moderns.
*****
Correct, and all I was saying is that we have to accept whichever
horse he's traded in the old one for, regardless of how irrational a
choice it may appear to us to be. This is what I mean when I say he's
entitled to contradict himself. We'd be doing him and his work a
massive disservice if we demanded consistency from him the way we'd
demand it from an elected official.
> How do you accept an artist without bothering trying to figure out
what that individual says? I'm not sure what you mean here.
*****
Well, I probably should have worded that more precisely (it was a
*long* post and I was trying to get through it as fast as I could). I
think it's of important to discern what an artist is saying, but in
the limited time we can devote to the work of a given filmmaker
without closing ourselves off from the work of others, it does not
profit us to constantly examine and attempt to rationalize what he or
she is saying at *all* times. We have to, as a practical matter, place
limitations on how far we're willing to chase these matters down . . .
unless you're a Godard scholar and have committed some measure of your
life to the pursuit. To me, what's of critical (not Critical)interest
is Godard's work; what he's saying in that arena. That's the
topography I personally feel is more worthy of exploration. If he
makes statements in interviews which seem contradictory, well,
interesing though they may be, I can't dedicate vast amounts of time
toward trying to resolve them.
Tom Sutpen
21209
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> La Dolce vita, Juliet of the Spirits, City of
> women are the three
Well the last two I understand, but what's your beef
with "La Dolce Vita"?
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21210
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:00am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> >
> > > there are as many or more Fellinis I don't like than Fellinis I
> > > love.
> >
> > Which Fellini's don't you like?
>
>
> La Dolce vita, Juliet of the Spirits, City of women are the three
> I dislike most. being against Lists I'm not giving a complete list.
I never liked "City of Women" either, nor "Ginger and Fred", nor
"Fellini's Casanova", plus a few others. "La Dolce Vita" I saw when I
was very young and it was a film that made a strong impression on me.
My great uncle remembers Anita Ekberg most clearly, and is fond of
telling me, "Saul ... the thing about women with big breasts is ....
they look great with clothes on ... but naked they look just horrible!"
21211
From: Craig Keller
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:08am
Subject: Re: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
On Saturday, January 15, 2005, at 09:43 PM, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
>>
>> La Dolce vita, Juliet of the Spirits, City of
>> women are the three
>
> Well the last two I understand, but what's your beef
> with "La Dolce Vita"?
Aren't you a fan of 'City of Women' though, David? I seem to remember
you had some beef with 'Giulietta of the Spirits' -- I'd be interested
to hear why (if I'm remembering correctly). It's one of my favorites.
craig.
21212
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:14am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> A little anecdote about Kate, Saul. I may have told it before to
> this group but if I did it was long before you joined... After my
> rave about "Private Property" and Kate Manx was published a reader
> wrote the magazine a letter saying that Kate was obviously a
> transvestite (Manx = Man X, he explained)and that I was very naive
> not to have noticed it. They published the letter and I responded
> something cute about my latent homosexuality (remember we're talking
> about 1960, and it was definitely not OK to be gay then).
For me, one of the most enjoyable aspects of being part of this group
is the great anecdotes that come up! I'm actually always amazed at the
letters that people send to papers/magazines. Just yesterday I read
one by a guy who complained that there was no more Vegemite in the
supermarket. (I don't think Vegemite is sold outside of Australia -
it's a yeast-based spread, with a very salty taste - a little like
Marmite, but better!!). Anyway, this guy asked if everybody could buy
less Vegemite so that next time he visited the supermarket there would
be enough for him!!!!!!!
> Kate was the wife of the director -- Leslie Stevens, whose film
> career was very short and strange. He filmed "Private Property" in
> his own house for $60,000, a rare independent production in
> 1960. "Heroes' Island" is very impressive but I found "Incubus"
> unwatchable (the dialogue is in esperanto). I saw Kate in a couple
> of TV shows (an episode of Lassie) then she reportedly killed
> herself.
imdb.com says she died of suicide from pills. There doesn't seem to be
much information about her on the net - and even fewer pictures. a pity.
21213
From:
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:24pm
Subject: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
I too would like to hear your thoughts on LA DOLCE VITA, J-P (and David). Saw
it recently and took it as a glimpse into the counterculture avant la lettre
the way SATYRICON was a sort of hangover from the 1960s. (Didn't someone
[Bill?] say that about the latter recently? I forgot the name of the thread which
was great.) Fellini seemed to be mourning the loss of organic experience or
aura or whatever, especially in relation to sound (a particularly
counterintuitive argument given the dubbing in the film). And, of course, it's precisely this
type of preposterous hand wringing that would become one of the more rotten
legacies of the counterculture. Plus the thing is too goddamned long. But the
argument is well mounted.
Still, a friend I saw it with dissented, concluding that LA DOLCE VITA had
little if nothing to do with late 1960s countercultures. Thoughts?
Kevin John
21214
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:32am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> Still, a friend I saw it with dissented, concluding
> that LA DOLCE VITA had
> little if nothing to do with late 1960s
> countercultures. Thoughts?
>
Well as the counter-culture didn't officially 'arrive"
until 1967/8 and "La Dolce Vita" was released in 1960,
it really had nothign to do with it. It's entirely
about the post-war Italian era known as "Il Boom." The
ar was reallyover. People were coming to Italy because
it was exciting (see "The Talented Mr. Ripley" which
takes palce during that very era) and Fellini had his
antennea out for all of that.
It's a film dealing with events that took place about
five minutes before Fellini said "Action!"
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21215
From:
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:01pm
Subject: Land Down Under - the video!
In a message dated 05-01-15 22:15:10 EST, Saul Symonds writes:
<< I don't think Vegemite is sold outside of Australia -
it's a yeast-based spread, with a very salty taste - a little like Marmite,
but better!! >>
Have heard of Vegemite - it's in the lyrics of "Land Down Under" by Men at
Work.
The music video for this is one of my all time favorite films - hauntingly
poetic and mysterious. Would love to know who directed the video.
And that for "Street of Dreams" by Rainbow.
Mike Grost
21216
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:03am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
"It's entirely about the post-war Italian era known as 'Il Boom.'...
It's a film dealing with events that took place about five minutes
before Fellini said 'Action!'"
Yes, and its time-retrieval quality makes it fascinating. Not only
that, but LA DOLCE VITA is also a fashion statement as I learned from
my s.o. when we saw it together about 10 years ago. By coincidence
the current issue of Vogue at that time featured an article on '60s
Euro-style illustrated with stills from the movie. One can learn a
lot by seeing movies with a woman (or man) with an eye for fashion.
Richard
21217
From:
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:07pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
Another major film about "Il Boom" is "La Notte", by Antonioni.
Mike Grost
21218
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Aren't you a fan of 'City of Women' though, David?
Well yes I am, but it's a very difficult film and I
can perfectly understand anyone who isn't "into"
Fellini being put off by it.
> I seem to remember
> you had some beef with 'Giulietta of the Spirits' --
> I'd be interested
> to hear why (if I'm remembering correctly). It's
> one of my favorites.
>
I have no particular "beef" with it, save for the fact
that its core is a fairly banal adultery tale. But who
looks at the core?
A perfect double feature with "Yolanda and the Thief"
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21219
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:16am
Subject: Re: Corean cinema, recommendations?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin" wrote:
>
> 50 Corean films here. From the 50's to now. Classics I guess. Any
> recommendation welcome.
Do you have a link to the list of 50 films? I can recommend films
from the nineties and after, but have only seen one Korean film from
the 60s (Obaltan / Aimless Bullet). I would recommend this (although
the only remaining source is in pretty dire shape). I haven't seen any
films from the 70s or 80s yet.
Michael Kerpan
21220
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:20am
Subject: Re: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> Another major film about "Il Boom" is "La Notte", by
> Antonioni.
>
"L'Avventura" as well, most specifically for the
starlet that the press is trailing in the film's last
part. The principle characters are young beautiful and
wealthy -- save for Monica Vitti who's playing a
middle-class white collar type. Antonioni demonstrated
why neo-relaism was no longer tenable for Italian
cinema -- to Pasolini's annoyance.
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21221
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:39am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
wrote:
> I never liked "City of Women" either, nor "Ginger and Fred", nor
> "Fellini's Casanova", plus a few others. "La Dolce Vita" I saw
when I
> was very young and it was a film that made a strong impression on
me.
> My great uncle remembers Anita Ekberg most clearly, and is fond of
> telling me, "Saul ... the thing about women with big breasts
is ....
> they look great with clothes on ... but naked they look just
horrible!"
Your great uncle was wise. Look what became of Anita. But big
breasts aren't what bothers me most in fellini's films.
21222
From:
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:47pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
I understand that LA DOLCE VITA doesn't concern the counterculture per se and
I did say "avant la lettre." And I appreciate the info on Il Boom. But in
retrospect, it certainly looks a lot like the counterculture - the ephemeral,
ever-shifting communes, the polymorphous perversity (with a soupçon of
misogyny/homophobia safeguarding against the vortex), the hippie-like distrust of
technological reproduction, even the certain amount of money flowing around which
was certainly a precondition for many people to drop out later in the decade.
Kevin John
21223
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:55am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I too would like to hear your thoughts on LA DOLCE VITA, J-P (and
David). Saw
> it recently and took it as a glimpse into the counterculture avant
la lettre
>
> Kevin John
Unfortunately I have absolutely nothing interesting to say about
the film. I saw it when it came out, disliked it and never wanted to
see it again. Of course I should have, but I just didn't. But I
didn't hate it as much as JULIET (one of the few films I ever walked
out on)or CITY OF WOMEN. Anyway it would be difficult for me to
discuss it from the point of view of people who first saw it ten
years ago or so as a nostalgic period piece.
21224
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:05am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
But in
> retrospect, it certainly looks a lot like the
> counterculture - the ephemeral,
> ever-shifting communes, the polymorphous perversity
> (with a soupçon of
> misogyny/homophobia safeguarding against the
> vortex), the hippie-like distrust of
> technological reproduction, even the certain amount
> of money flowing around which
> was certainly a precondition for many people to drop
> out later in the decade.
>
True, and above all there's Nico -- who was in town
because (being a girl after my own heart) she was hot
on the trail of Alain Delon. In her very first
excahnge with marcelloshe mentions that she's through
with modelling -- which she was. She toyed with the
idea of acting, going so far as to audition for the
femlae lead in "Plien Soleil" -- starring You Know
Who. He, needless to say, nixed it.
Fellini, being Fellini, adored her and wanted to work
with her again. But she left town, came to London
where she cut a single for Andrew Loog Oldham and then
went off to New York where she joined up with Warhol,
and by consequence, very much in passing, met yours
truly.
She didn't land Delon, but she became preganant by
him. He was horrified, expecting extortion. But that
wasn't Nico's style. She got what she wanted in little
Ari -- who grew up to be the spitting image of Undear
Old Dad.
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21225
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:06am
Subject: Re: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Unfortunately I have absolutely nothing
> interesting to say about
> the film. I saw it when it came out, disliked it and
> never wanted to
> see it again. Of course I should have, but I just
> didn't.
WQell I do wish you'd give it another shot, J-P. It's
out on DVD.
But I
> didn't hate it as much as JULIET (one of the few
> films I ever walked
> out on)or CITY OF WOMEN. Anyway it would be
> difficult for me to
> discuss it from the point of view of people who
> first saw it ten
> years ago or so as a nostalgic period piece.
>
I don't see I like that. To me "La Dolce Vita" isn't
just about its period but about the way the media
operates right this minute.
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21226
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:58am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
Anyway it would be difficult for me to
> discuss it from the point of view of people who first saw it ten
> years ago or so as a nostalgic period piece.
You raise a fascinating point, JP: movies that were very much
contemporary when they were released but which over time become
period pices because they signify their particular eras. The other
night I was looking again at Since You Went Away which in 1944 was
cutting edge about life-as-we-know-it but which today is pure
homefront nostalgia. It still works beautifully, I think, but our
contemporary eyes can never begin to see it the same way that its
original audiences did.
Moving up a few decades, seeing Easy Rider as a teenager when it was
released the film spoke to me and my contemporaries and our disgust
with Vietnam era America. I've heard tales of how young people today
can't get past the fact that the Fonda and Hopper characters are
dealing drugs -- apparently, it's seen as a 60s "counter-culture"
relic, and has no relevance to George Bush's America.
21227
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Nico's son Ari (WAS: LA DOLCE VITA)
David, do you know what's up with Ari? I heard he got hooked on heroin and
Nico helped. True? And does Delon ever acknowledge him?
Kevin John
21228
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:06am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> But then Fellini's the one auteur that auteurists feel
> least kinship with.
>
I've never understood the auteurist dislike (contempt even) for
Fellini. I never particularly want to see La Strada again, but most
of his other works contain the warmth and humanism that auteurists
have found missing in Kubrick, and Bergman's self-importance and lack
of humor are not traits Fellini can be accused of -- to mention two
other Important filmmakers of of the 50s-70s that auteurists tend to
disdain.
21229
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:17am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>
> The Vogue still stands but it's not operating. The Egyptian is the
> home of the American Cinematheque, and the the Aero ("showing
movies
> on the big screen since 1940") in Santa Monica is their West Side
> home. The Nu-Art is still in business and so is the Royal.
Westwood
> is home to several single screens (including the Bruin.) There are
> probably half a dozen other single screen theatres left in LA
(though
> none are in the San Frenando Valley and there's only one other on
> Hollywood Blvd., the last of the second run cinemas here.)
You guys in LA are lucky to have these old theatres operating and I
hope you all frequent them. I haf always thought that Los Angeles
had even less respect for its architectural heritage than New York,
but clearly not, at least wwhen it comes to movie houses. (I
remember being heartbroken when a paradigm of 40s Southern California
car culture, Tiny Naylor's on Sunset and (I believe) La Brea was torn
down.)
I remember in the early 80s seeing Streetcar and East of Eden at the
Sepulveda (in Inglewood -- is that still there) and Leave Her To
Heaven and Laura at the Four Star on Wilshire (which I know is gone),
and the great thing was that you felt you were seeing the films in a
contemporary setting, as if it was the 40s/50s and these were new
releases.
21230
From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:21am
Subject: Most Dangerous Man Alive (Was: More Last Films at the 'Theque)
>From: "Maxime Renaudin"
>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan >
> > I'm especially looking forward to seeing those last Dwan and
> > Ulmer features Maxime talked about, since I greatly enjoyed the
> > works by these two directors I've seen so far.
>
>Samuel, you were there for the Dwan? Hope so.
>When Elained Stewart curled herself around Randell to warm up his
>dead body, I cried again. The sniggering doesn't affect me anymore,
>but, please, tell me you love it.
Yes, I was there. I cant't exactly say I loved the film, because I was
disturbed by the very slow pace and the many continuity errors. But I
enjoyed it nonetheless, though not as much as the other Dwan films I've
seen.
I had convinced my brother, who is a sci-fi and comic books fan, to come to
the screening with his girlfriend (she said she was disturbed by the
"mysogynist" violence in the film, but then, she always makes that kind of
complaint). The film seemed interesting to us with respect to the evolution
of the superhero genre, the "Zeitgeist" of (especially) Marvel comic books.
My brother also remarked that it could be seen as a critique of "revenge"
films: since in other films of that genre, the main character usually
succeeds in getting even with those who betrayed him without getting hurt,
finding a supernatural explanation for his invincibility is a way to say
that it's absurd anyway!
I was struck by the many ellipsis in the plot: when the bad guys say "Get
this girl!," we see her in their car in the next frame. Dwan's direction
seemed much less dynamic to me than in SILVER LODE, for example. A sense of
urgency was lacking, I think. Oh, and I also wish we had not sit in the same
row as a man who laughed repeatedly at the film...
Samuel.
21231
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:47am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
.
>
> I saw it the other night at a Fellini event at the
> Italian Cultual institute here in Los Angeles. It's a
> compediumof stills from the sequence, which has Guido
> and all the other characters from the film riding away
> on a train. Fellini opted for the "8 1/2" ending we
> now all know.But he used the train idea for the opning
> of "City of Women."
Was it worth a trip, David? It's playing at least once more.
21232
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:49am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
> wrote:
>
> > Kate Manx is attractive - but I haven't seen "Private Property",
> as it
> > doesn't seem to be the easiest film to find a copy of.
>
> A little anecdote about Kate, Saul. I may have told it before to
> this group but if I did it was long before you joined... After my
> rave about "Private Property" and Kate Manx was published a
reader
> wrote the magazine a letter saying that Kate was obviously a
> transvestite (Manx = Man X, he explained)and that I was very naive
> not to have noticed it.
> Kate was the wife of the director -- Leslie Stevens, whose film
> career was very short and strange. I saw Kate in a couple
> of TV shows (an episode of Lassie) then she reportedly killed
> herself.
Because he regretted the operation.
21233
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:53am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I too would like to hear your thoughts on LA DOLCE VITA, J-P (and
David). Saw
> it recently and took it as a glimpse into the counterculture avant
la lettre
> the way SATYRICON was a sort of hangover from the 1960s.
The Satyricon and Dolce Vita are about their respective eras - and
about decadence.
The film that singlehandedly caused the counterculture was Jules et
Jim.
21234
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:56am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
>
> "It's entirely about the post-war Italian era known as 'Il
Boom.'...
> It's a film dealing with events that took place about five minutes
> before Fellini said 'Action!'"
I think it's my favorite after Satyricon. Or maybe I Clowns is. But
I'd be hard-pressed to name a Fellini I don't love. Orchestra
Rehearsal maybe.
21235
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:03am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>
> I've never understood the auteurist dislike (contempt even) for
> Fellini. I never particularly want to see La Strada again, but
most
Olivier Assayas wrote a great piece about how Fellini posited himself
as the alternative to the New Wave. As a result he holds Dolce Vita
and Roma high up above the rest of the oeuvre: films about
contemporary reality.
Anyway, that's what I love about OA's criticism: He sees Cinema at
any given moment as a battlefield.
21236
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:04am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> > I remember in the early 80s seeing Streetcar and East of Eden at
the
> Sepulveda (in Inglewood -- is that still there) and Leave Her To
> Heaven and Laura at the Four Star on Wilshire (which I know is gone
You sound like Gromeck, Damien! Re: NY vs. LA, we just have more
space.
21237
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:10am
Subject: Re: Most Dangerous Man Alive (Was: More Last Films at the 'Theque)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan wrote:
> >From: "Maxime Renaudin"
> >
> >Samuel, you were there for the Dwan? Hope so.
> >When Elained Stewart curled herself around Randell to warm up his
> >dead body, I cried again. The sniggering doesn't affect me anymore,
> >but, please, tell me you love it.
Since yahoo ate my comment, I'll repeat it. I do love it, and every
time I see those scenes in the supposedly isolated villa with cars
whizzing by outside I wonder if Straub saw this movie. Biette thought
it was Dwan's answer to White Heat.
I assume everyone knows he believed he was making some kind of tv
pilot. As previously noted, the return to nothing but practical
locations in this and Enchanted Island closes the circle for me very
movingly.
21238
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:37am
Subject: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> The late, great Dorothy Dean -- who gave me the skinny
> on Chayevsky and his hydrotherapy -- loved "The
> Hospital." It's a far more pointed bit of satire than
> "Network."
Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV satire ever
made? This? Being There?
My favorite Chayefsky has to be Altered States--treats his script
exactly as it should be treated. My favorite Russell however--I can
see the eyebrows rising--is Crimes of Passion.
21239
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:41am
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
In a message dated 01/16/2005 3:38:34 AM, noelbotevera@y... writes:
<< Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV satire ever
made? This? Being There? >>
WILL SUCCESS SPOIL ROCK HUNTER?
Kevin John
21240
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:53am
Subject: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
> most
> of his other works contain the warmth and humanism that auteurists
> have found missing in Kubrick,
Aaaargh....!!! Everybody thinks or says that Kubrick makes cold films.
This is not true. He makes intensely emotional films, (with warmth and
humanism), as "Barry Lyndon" proves. This is a topic and a director I
could blather on about for hours, so I will stop before I start. I
merely didn't want to leave your comment without mentioning something.
21241
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:28am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> True, and above all there's Nico -- who was in town
> because (being a girl after my own heart) she was hot
> on the trail of Alain Delon. In her very first
> excahnge with marcelloshe mentions that she's through
> with modelling -- which she was. She toyed with the
> idea of acting, going so far as to audition for the
> femlae lead in "Plien Soleil" -- starring You Know
> Who. He, needless to say, nixed it.
> Fellini, being Fellini, adored her and wanted to work
> with her again. But she left town, came to London
> where she cut a single for Andrew Loog Oldham and then
> went off to New York where she joined up with Warhol,
> and by consequence, very much in passing, met yours
> truly.
I first came across Nico when I bought a copy of "The Velvet
Underground and Nico", the best album of 1967, (Ok - there was lot of
good ones that year, and an amazing amount of good debut's - and those
who like their music are probably gonna pull me up and list one of the
following from '67: "Sgt. Peppers" or "Magical Mystery Tour" "David
Bowie", "The Doors" or "Strange Days", "Surrealistic Pillow", "Are You
Experienced?" or "Axis: Bold as Love", "I Never Loved a Man the Way I
love You", "The Piper at the Gates of Dawn", "Lumpy Gravy", "Songs of
Leonard Cohen", "Forever Changes", "Smiley Smile", can I stop now? No,
none of them were as good, not even Simon and Garfunkel live in NYC,
(if that's your kind of music).
To this day it's an album I often listen to. My favourite track is
"Venus in Furs". Of course, I didn't know of Sacher-Masoch when I
bought the album at the age of around 9 or 10 I think. I love the
lyrics: "Shiny, shiny, shiny boots of leather, Whiplash girlchild in
the dark ... ... Kiss the boot of shiny, shiny leather, Shiny leather
in the dark ... Taste the whip, in love not given lightly, Taste the
whip, now bleed for me"
Sorry for this long intro, I was merely, in a reverie of countless
hours spent lying in the sun listening to this album, leading up to
the question: David, WHAT WAS NICO LIKE??? PLEASE DON'T SKIMP ON
DETAILS......... :)
Yours Truly,
Saul.
21242
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:37am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
In a message dated 05-01-16 02:58:41 EST, you write:
<< Easy Rider as a teenager when it was released the film spoke to me and my
contemporaries and our disgust with Vietnam era America. I've heard tales of
how young people today can't get past the fact that the Fonda and Hopper
characters are dealing drugs >>
I saw Easy Rider as a teenager in the early 1970's - and was just as turned
off by the drug dealing back then! I was amazed that people could regard drug
dealers as heroes.
My cinematic image of 60's anti-war activities was "The Smothers Brothers"
comedy hour. Still recall Pete Seeger singing "Waste Deep in the Big Muddy",
after the network censors finally let him do it.
Mike Grost
21243
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:59am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
on 8 1/2:
The recent Criterion DVD has a few stills of the original train ending of the
film, which was shot, then discarded. It looks nice - but nowhere as
interesting as the circus dance, which is one of the great movie endings. The DVD says
the dance was originally created to be the TRAILER for 8 1/2, but Fellini
later decided to put it in the actual film. The dance is so reflexive and
self-referential - it includes all the characters in the film, dancing around the
hero. Such a self-reflective approach is typical (to a degree) of trailers, which
are supposed to be ABOUT a movie. But putting this scene in the actual movie,
it adds this kind of self-commentary right into the film itself. This was
radical and innovative. It is also a triumph of formal design, with the circular
dance.
on Juliet of the Spirits
When I saw this decades ago, it just seems like an endurance test. But recent
TV viewings seemed like a whole different and much better movie. The material
about going to the various New Age types seemed richly detailed and
fascinating - and I am definitely not a New Age type myself. The color in the film also
seemed rich and magnificent.
Have no idea why a film will seem so different. Did I change? Did the culture
change? The recent TV print seemed much better than the 70's print - perhaps
a partial explanation.
on Fellini: A Director's Notebook
This was on the 8 1/2 DVD's. It was pretty disappointing, despite some witty
material on Ancient Rome. To be fair, the print is terribly faded - Fellini's
original might have been much better looking. It suffers from exquisitely
horrible dubbing - like JPC's worst nightmares!
on Toby Dammit, Fellini Satyricon, The Clowns
This great trio of films from around 1970 seem to be Fellini's greatest
works. They are just overflowing with invention.
Mike Grost
21244
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:59pm
Subject: Re: Nico's son Ari (WAS: LA DOLCE VITA)
--- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> David, do you know what's up with Ari? I heard he
> got hooked on heroin and
> Nico helped. True? And does Delon ever acknowledge
> him?
>
The answer to those questions, and much more, can be
found in Susanne Ofteringer's 1995 documentary
"Nico/Icon" which has been out on Dvd for quite a few
years now.
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21245
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Multiplex Madness: Two More Theatres To Bite The Dust
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Was it worth a trip, David? It's playing at least
> once more.
>
>
>
>
It's a treribly uncomfortable place to look at movies
this time of year because the auditorium is unheated.
There's an exhibit of recently discovered photos shot
on the set of the film that's very much worth looking
at if you love "La Dolce Vita."
__________________________________________________
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21246
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:13pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
--- Noel Vera wrote:
> Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece
> of TV satire ever
> made? This? Being There?
>
My vote goes to Robert Downey Sr.'s "Putney Swope"
> My favorite Chayefsky has to be Altered
> States--treats his script
> exactly as it should be treated. My favorite Russell
> however--I can
> see the eyebrows rising--is Crimes of Passion.
>
>
Mine are on the ceiling.
Ken Russell to me lights are the trio of masterpeices
that were released in 1971: "The Devils," "The Boy
Friend" and (using it's proper complete title) "Ken
Russell's film on Tchaikovsky and the Music Lovers."
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21247
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- Saul Symonds wrote:
>
> Sorry for this long intro, I was merely, in a
> reverie of countless
> hours spent lying in the sun listening to this
> album, leading up to
> the question: David, WHAT WAS NICO LIKE??? PLEASE
> DON'T SKIMP ON
> DETAILS......... :)
Just what you'd expect: Gorgeous, imperious,
unapproachable. The "Girl Next Door" if "Next Door" is
Mars. One didn't have a conversation with her. One
merely "hung out" in her presence.
I saw her again the year before she died when she made
her last concert appearance in L.A. at the "Whiskey"
with the truly marvelous kick-ass band that james
Young (who wrote the Nico memoir "Songs They Don't
Play on the radio") led. She had Tim Hardin open for
her. The assembled group of punks had no idea who he
was, and he sang several of his songs -- looking like
a teddy bear with half the stuffing pulled out,and
sounding like an Angel.
Two weeks later he was dead of an OD that may well
have been a murder.Nico had, of course, returned to
Europe by then. But I gather she could handle bad
smack better than anyone.
Or to quote Marianne Faithful (an unimpeachable
authority on these matters):
"Born in 1938
A good year for the Reich.
She could not participate
She didn't have the right.
For she was fatherless in the Fatherland.
Now it's 1966
Andrew's up to all his tricks.
And when Brian Jones is near
Nico doesn't feel so queer;
She's in the shit, though she's innocent —
Yesterday is gone,
There's just today — No tomorrow.
Yesterday is gone,
There's just today — No more ...
Now it's Andy Warhol's time
Mystic 60's on a dime.
Though she kinda likes Lou Reed —
She doesn't really have the need.
Already in the shit, though she's innocent.
And now she doesn't know
What it is she wants
And where she wants to go
And will Delon be still a cunt.
Yes, she's in the shit, though she is innocent.
Yesterday is gone
There's just today
No tomorrow.
Yesterday is gone
There's just today
No more.
Yesterday is gone
There's just today
No tomorrow.
Yesterday is gone
There's just today
No more."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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21248
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:29pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I saw Easy Rider as a teenager in the early 1970's - and was just as
turned
> off by the drug dealing back then! I was amazed that people could
regard drug
> dealers as heroes.
> My cinematic image of 60's anti-war activities was "The Smothers
Brothers"
> comedy hour. Still recall Pete Seeger singing "Waste Deep in the Big
Muddy",
> after the network censors finally let him do it.
Mike, I saw Easy Rider as a teenager in the early 1990's - and wasn't
turned off by the drug dealing at all. Apart from the fact that Hopper
and Fonda are about as loveable as drug dealers can get, and apart
from the fact that the film wasn't really about drug dealing, and
apart from the fact that drugs were an indelible part of that culture,
and apart from the fact that drug dealing was a very possible way for
two bikers such as themselves to make enough money to fund a trip such
as the one they went on, there is also the fact to be considered that
making them drug dealers was merely a way of positioning them as
against and opposed to every good, moral, and decent value society
upheld. A gesture no less transparent than the throwing down of the
watch into the dirt, like Gary Cooper throwing his badge into the dirt
many years before in "High Noon". And this was just a year before
'American loners' disastisfied with the world as it was, turned into
more troubled, and perhaps unlikable characters, starting, probably,
with Peter Boyle and Dennis Patrick in "Joe".
21249
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:53pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds" wrote:
> Sorry for this long intro, I was merely, in a reverie of countless
> hours spent lying in the sun listening to this album,
*****
Damn, Saul. You haven't listened to it under the optimal conditions.
The best time to listen to that album . . . or any other Velvet
Underground recordings . . . is between 3 and 6AM; preferably in a
cramped, somewhat cold, anonymous space (a University dorm room being
the paradigm) and hovering dangerously close to the edge of suicide.
Listen to it under those circumstances and it could well change your life.
Tom Sutpen
21250
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:32pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
wrote:
>
>
> To this day it's an album I often listen to. My favourite track is
> "Venus in Furs". Of course, I didn't know of Sacher-Masoch when I
> bought the album at the age of around 9 or 10 I think. I love the
> lyrics: "Shiny, shiny, shiny boots of leather, Whiplash girlchild
in
> the dark ... ... Kiss the boot of shiny, shiny leather, Shiny
leather
> in the dark ... Taste the whip, in love not given lightly, Taste
the
> whip, now bleed for me"
>
So, was that your intro to the wonderful world of BDSM, Saul?
21251
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:41pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> The film that singlehandedly caused the counterculture was Jules
et
> Jim.
Surely you jest, Bill...
21252
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 01/16/2005 3:38:34 AM, noelbotevera@y... writes:
>
> << Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV satire
ever
>
> made? This? Being There? >>
>
> WILL SUCCESS SPOIL ROCK HUNTER?
>
> Kevin John
You beat me to it, Kevin. The Tashlin stands above all others ("It's
Always Fair Weather" is also up there).
21253
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:05pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
> WILL SUCCESS SPOIL ROCK HUNTER?
Well it's either that or SCTV (now that the reality has caught up
with the parody).
gee why am I getting depressed ;-)
-Sam
fighting the temptation to say "Putney Swope" ....................!
21254
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
> My vote goes to Robert Downey Sr.'s "Putney Swope"
Thanx David, I hadn't read this one yet when I replied,
you're bolder than I am !!
-Sam
21255
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
> > It's a far more pointed bit of satire than
> > "Network."
>
> Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV satire ever
> made? This? Being There?
*****
"A Face in the Crowd" might have been, if Elia Kazan hadn't been so
damn solemn about the whole thing (nothing on this earth is more dour
than reformed Communists). As it stands, "Network" isn't even satire
any longer. It's practically a documentary.
> My favorite Chayefsky has to be Altered States--treats his script
> exactly as it should be treated. My favorite Russell however--I can
> see the eyebrows rising--is Crimes of Passion.
*****
I've seen worse Russell than that ("Lair of the White Worm", "Whore",
"Salome's Last Dance"), so my eyebrows are staying where they are.
Tom "Elgar" Sutpen
21256
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:36pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
> "A Face in the Crowd" might have been, if Elia Kazan hadn't been so
> damn solemn about the whole thing (nothing on this earth is more dour
> than reformed Communists). As it stands, "Network" isn't even satire
> any longer. It's practically a documentary.
And Lonesome's in the White House....
-Sam
p.s. I kinda hated Ken Russell.... until I saw "Pink Floyd The Wall" ...
then I was in the theater, screaming "OK OK I take it
all back, bring in Ken Russell - PLEASE ! :)
21257
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:48pm
Subject: Re: Beyond Our Ken (was: Padlock Chayefsky)
--- Tom Sutpen wrote:
> *****
> I've seen worse Russell than that ("Lair of the
> White Worm", "Whore",
> "Salome's Last Dance"), so my eyebrows are staying
> where they are.
>
"Whore" is really bad, and "Salome's Last Dance" is a
sadly opportunity, But I adore Amanda Donohue luring
boys scouts to their doom in "Lair of the White Room."
And who can resist Catheroine Oxenberg suspended over
a sacrificial snake pit in her undies, rescued in the
nick of time by everyone's favorite snake, Hugh Grant?
__________________________________
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21258
From: jaketwilson
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:00pm
Subject: EASY RIDER (was: LA DOLCE VITA)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds" wrot
...there is also the fact to be considered that
> making them drug dealers was merely a way of positioning them as
> against and opposed to every good, moral, and decent value society
> upheld. A gesture no less transparent than the throwing down of the
> watch into the dirt, like Gary Cooper throwing his badge into the dirt
> many years before in "High Noon".
I saw EASY RIDER as a kid on the recommendation of my parents, ex-
hippies whose moviegoing peaked in 1970 or so. Though nonplussed by the
psychedelic interlude I had no problem accepting drug-dealing as part of
the characters' way of life: I was used to antisocial outlaw heroes in
sci-fi action movies so I pretty much took the convention for granted.
Far more disturbing to my youthful sense of morality was the scene where
Clint Eastwood rapes a prostitute in HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER -- also a
favorite of my parents, though I doubt they'd seen it since it came out.
To say the least, it's hard to picture something like that happening in
an American genre film today.
JTW
21259
From: Raymond P.
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:15pm
Subject: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
Has anyone else seen HARVEST TIME by Marina Razbezhkina? If so, can
you explain to me how can any paid reviewer be so clueless as to
completely misunderstand a film to this degree? Here's the offending
review in question:
http://www.thehollywoodreporter.com/thr/reviews/review_display.jsp?
vnu_content_id=1000721088
Grimfarrow
21260
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 0:41pm
Subject: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
For some reason, I have always been much more interested in the good guys in
films, books and comics, than in the villains.
Recent posts suggesting that viewers liked the drug dealer protagonists in
"Easy Rider" and sympathized with the killers in "Elephant" have left me
completely baffled. At least on an emotional level. I could never take an interest in
such people (although Peter Fonda's motorcycle outfit is cool.) I am not
wired inside to respond to them. Never liked JR on "Dallas", either, or any other
soap villains. Criminal masterminds in films like Die Hard just sem like dead
screen space to me.
I did enjoy Burgess Meredith as The Penguin on Batman, and I like non-violent
Society Jewel Thieves, such as Cary Grant in "To Catch a Thief" or Roger
Moore on "The Saint" - although whether such characters are really villains is an
open question. Otherwise, zero in this depratment. I am still mad at Tim
Burton for giving Jack Nicholson a bigger role in "Batman" than Michael Keaton.
One of the things that bugs me about Hollywood films of the last 15 years is
how sleazy many of the protagonists are. I would rather see 100% heroes. This
tends to spoil my enjoyment of the films. I like the old days, in which the
Lone Ranger would never kill anyone - only bad guys killed people.
A big exception: the very enjoyable "Speed". Only the bad guys in this film
use violence. The heroes, Keanu Reeves, Jeff Daniels and the rest, keep trying
to help people. It gives the film a very interesting structure.
Mike Grost
PS I would love to have a guest star role in "The Lone Ranger", if they ever
revive it. At the end one guest star always turns to another and says "Who was
that masked man?"
Reply: "That was the Lone Ranger!"
Just about every actor who gets to say the final line looks like he is in
actor's heaven. Try watching the old shows on the Western Channel - you'll soon
notice...
21261
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:43pm
Subject: Daisy Kenyon Author Dies
Elizabeth Janeway, who wrote the novel upon which Premminger's "Daisy
Kenyon" was based, has died at age 91. She was also a social critic
and feminist activist.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/books/16janeway.html
21262
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:05pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> > The film that singlehandedly caused the counterculture was Jules
> et
> > Jim.
>
> Surely you jest, Bill...
I never jest about earthshaking matters. I may exaggerate a little,
but I do believe that (for those who saw it) JyJ offerred a first
look at Bohemia, which was not very visible here the first year of
JFK's short reign. The Beats had been assimilated into the
mainstream - Bob Newhart started at the Hungry i, for heaven's sake -
and things like sharin' wimmen and not workin' and "just doin' it"
were exciting news to some of us.
21263
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> > << Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV
satire
> ever
> >
> > made? This? Being There? >>
> >
> > WILL SUCCESS SPOIL ROCK HUNTER?
> >
> > Kevin John
>
> You beat me to it, Kevin. The Tashlin stands above all others
("It's
> Always Fair Weather" is also up there).
Farenheit 451 gets in some pretty good digs.
21264
From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:12pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> For some reason, I have always been much more interested in the
good guys in
> films, books and comics, than in the villains.
Hitchcock wd be shocked. Ray Milland in Dial M - a bore? Judith
Anderson, Robert Montgomery, James Mason -- total stiffs? And what
about the baddies Welles was always playing, like Quinlan and Arkadin?
21265
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond P." wrote:
>
> Has anyone else seen HARVEST TIME by Marina Razbezhkina? If so, can
> you explain to me how can any paid reviewer be so clueless as to
> completely misunderstand a film to this degree?
*****
Because that's what they're getting paid for?
Seriously, my mystification with critical attitudes reached a kind of
zenith last year around the time I saw some of them waxing rhapsodic
over Bertolucci's "The Dreamers".
I remember thinking: Jesus. Every cinephile who couldn't get laid in a
whorehouse is going weak at the knees over this thing.
Tom "Langlois" Sutpen
21266
From: Raymond P.
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:32pm
Subject: Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond P."
wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone else seen HARVEST TIME by Marina Razbezhkina? If so,
can
> > you explain to me how can any paid reviewer be so clueless as to
> > completely misunderstand a film to this degree?
>
> *****
> Because that's what they're getting paid for?
>
> Seriously, my mystification with critical attitudes reached a kind
of
> zenith last year around the time I saw some of them waxing
rhapsodic
> over Bertolucci's "The Dreamers".
>
> I remember thinking: Jesus. Every cinephile who couldn't get laid
in a
> whorehouse is going weak at the knees over this thing.
>
> Tom "Langlois" Sutpen
Uhmm...I'd have to assume you haven't seen the film then, as you
have also missed the reason for my criticism of the review.
The review states that it is a "documentary" multiple times...it's
not. Not even close. Did the guy even watch the film?
21267
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
--- Tom Sutpen wrote:
>
> Seriously, my mystification with critical attitudes
> reached a kind of
> zenith last year around the time I saw some of them
> waxing rhapsodic
> over Bertolucci's "The Dreamers".
>
> I remember thinking: Jesus. Every cinephile who
> couldn't get laid in a
> whorehouse is going weak at the knees over this
> thing.
>
HUNH? "The Dreamers" got Bertolucci the biggest
drubbing of his career. Fewer people saw it than
"Rochelle Rochelle" (aka. "Stealing Beauty")
Frankly, I rather enjoyed it -- despite Gilbert's
mendacity and the lack of HOT CINEPHILE-ON-CINEPHILE
ACTION between Louis "Spitting Image of My Dad" Garrel
and Michael "Tommy Gnosis" Pitt
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21268
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
--- Tom Sutpen wrote:
>
> Seriously, my mystification with critical attitudes
> reached a kind of
> zenith last year around the time I saw some of them
> waxing rhapsodic
> over Bertolucci's "The Dreamers".
>
> I remember thinking: Jesus. Every cinephile who
> couldn't get laid in a
> whorehouse is going weak at the knees over this
> thing.
>
HUNH? "The Dreamers" got Bertolucci the biggest
drubbing of his career. Fewer people saw it than
"Rochelle Rochelle" (aka. "Stealing Beauty")
Frankly, I rather enjoyed it -- despite Gilbert's
mendacity and the lack of HOT CINEPHILE-ON-CINEPHILE
ACTION between Louis "Spitting Image of My Dad" Garrel
and Michael "Tommy Gnosis" Pitt
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21269
From: Raymond P.
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:37pm
Subject: Another example of journalistic incompetence...in NY Times
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?
res=9F0DE6DB1131F933A25751C1A9629C8B63
The review for "A Talking Picture", by Manohla Dargis
Here's the gem:
In both its intellectual reach and the elegant simplicity of its
form, ''A Talking Picture'' bears resemblance to Andrei
Sokurov's ''Russian Ark.''
21270
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 1:48pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
In a message dated 05-01-16 13:13:18 EST, you write:
<< Hitchcock wd be shocked. Ray Milland in Dial M - a bore? Judith
Anderson, Robert Montgomery, James Mason -- total stiffs? And what
about the baddies Welles was always playing, like Quinlan and Arkadin?
>>
Have to admit Welles is an exception! He is always fascinating.
But in Hitchcock, the villians have never interested me the way the heroes
do.
Mike Grost
21271
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time & utterly clueless reviews
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Raymond P." wrote:
> Uhmm...I'd have to assume you haven't seen the film then, as you
> have also missed the reason for my criticism of the review.
>
> The review states that it is a "documentary" multiple times...it's
> not. Not even close. Did the guy even watch the film?
*****
Probably not (it's been known to happen). I know I haven't seen it(nor
did I claim to). I live in a cinephile's desert, anyway. You think I'm
gonna get a chance to see that film anytime soon?
All I did was accept your characterization of the review as "clueless"
at face value. My apologies, sir. I'd bow before you with vast
humility, except I happen to be paralyzed with shame right at the moment.
Tom "Catch my Humble act later" Sutpen
21272
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:56pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> >>
> Have to admit Welles is an exception! He is always fascinating.
> But in Hitchcock, the villians have never interested me the way
the heroes
> do.
>
> Mike Grost
Who's the hero in Shadow of a Doubt? The detective? Are you
interested in him? Of course not. The actual "hero' is Uncle
Charlie, a fascinating bad guy.
21273
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:22pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
In a message dated 05-01-16 13:57:46 EST, you write:
<< Who's the hero in Shadow of a Doubt? The detective? Are you
interested in him? Of course not. The actual "hero' is Uncle
Charlie, a fascinating bad guy. >>
Heresy: "Shadow of a Doubt" is one of my least favorite Hitchcock's. I just
don't "get it", on some emotional level. This might be more a blind spot in my
"wiring", than any sort of critical judgment - Hitchcock is one of the
all-time greats. Always feel like seeing something else whenever Uncle Charlie shows
up.
I do think Raymond Burr was a classic villain. He's great in Rear Window, Raw
Deal, Desperate, Crime of Passion, Horizons West etc. Robert Ryan is
electrifying in "Caught" and "The Racket".
Am not trying to elevate this to some sort of "fetish", as Fred Camper
rightly warns about. If lack of appreciation for villains interferes with
understanding great directors, then it is up to me to broaden my response to include
them.
But it does impact my visceral response to films. I am much more likely to
enjoy Buster Keaton than Arnold Schwarzenegger, for instance. Keaton plays a
resourceful, admirable hero, while AS is usually some sort of mass murderer, even
if he has the nominal "hero" role. Yecch! There is much more to Keaton's art
than just being a good guy, of course, but it serves as a conduit into
appreciating his performance and actions.
It also affects other kinds of responses. Take Gus Van Sant. I liked the
young writer in "Finding Forrester" much more than the killers in "Elephant", for
instance. The writer is certainly a far more admirable person - as well as
being much more complexly characterized. Am thus a bit puzzled by the widespread
critical feeling that "Finding Forrester" is a "sell-out film", while
"Elephant" is art. My emotions keep telling me the opposite - that the young writer is
a really interesting person, while the killers are just self-pitying rich
kids.
Let's try to move into positive territory. One reason I like Lubitsch so
much, is that his characters just fascinate. They get the full, intense interest
my subconscious gives to good guys.
Mike Grost
Trying to be exploratory here, rather than dogmatic or laying down final
judgments.
21274
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
Am thus a
> bit puzzled by the widespread
> critical feeling that "Finding Forrester" is a
> "sell-out film", while
> "Elephant" is art. My emotions keep telling me the
> opposite - that the young writer is
> a really interesting person, while the killers are
> just self-pitying rich
> kids.
Well the young writer IS a reallyinteresting person.
As for the kids in "Elephant" (rich?) no special
pleading is made for them -- or anyone else in the
film."Finding Forrester" and "Elphant"approach the
cinema in two different -- almost antithetical --ways.
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21275
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:57pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Take Gus Van Sant. I liked the
> young writer in "Finding Forrester" much more than the killers in
"Elephant", for
> instance. The writer is certainly a far more admirable person - as
well as
> being much more complexly characterized.
But he's complex in ways so endemic to mainstream Hollywood
storytelling that, if you've seen enough movies, there's nothing
complex about him at all. He's just one quirk, one impulse away from
being John Dall in "The Corn is Green". Do we really need to see
something like that again?
And why is it necessary for characters in *any* film to be admirable?
> Am thus a bit puzzled by the widespread
> critical feeling that "Finding Forrester" is a "sell-out film", while
> "Elephant" is art.
*****
Because anybody could have directed "Finding Forrester" and come up
with the same thing so long as they colored inside the lines.
"Elephant" is a deeply observant work.
After decades of movies about teenagers . . . from the Andy Hardy
series to Larry Clark's lurid exercises . . . "Elephant" is the one
that's come closest to getting it right; to replicating the emotional
terrorism and rampant status-consciousness that passes for social
interaction in that hideous environment. It is not a paint-by-numbers
affair at all and, I'll admit, after all those years of seeming to
have foundered upon the mainstream, it's a film I didn't think Van
Sant had in him any longer (on the other hand, "Gerry" is the kind of
film you think *no one* has in them).
Tom Sutpen
21276
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
In a message dated 01/16/2005 12:58:05 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
<< Who's the hero in Shadow of a Doubt? The detective? Are you
interested in him? Of course not. The actual "hero' is Uncle
Charlie, a fascinating bad guy. >>
Um, hello, J-P! What about Young Charlie? Her very name suggests what's at
stake in the film. And her trip to the library is an act of heroic proportions
indeed!
But even though I think Mike is totally misguided (if not being somewhat
dishonest) about ELEPHANT, I agree that we could all stand with a lot less
violence in films (and life). Being nice is always harder than being mean. But that
just makes it doubly difficult to make interesting on the big screen.
Kevin John
21277
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:38pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"The Beats had been assimilated into the mainstream..."
Not by 1962. Beatnik villains were still a mainstay of US TV crime
shows, and as late as 1964 Beats were either portrayed as comic
incompetents or cynical villains in pictures like THE FLESH EATERS,
THE BEAT GENERATION, THE HYPNOTIC EYE, TAKE HER SHE'S MINE.
I like Gary Snyder's description of the counterculture as the "Great
Subculture" (in his essay "Why Tribe" and also in "Passage to More
Than India") whose '60s mainfestation was preceded by 50 years of
Euro-American bohemianism. A movie cited by all of the Beats was LA
BAS FOND seen in the late 1940s, and Jean Gabin was *the* bohemian
hero for them (as noted in Ginsberg's published journals, Kerouac's
correspondence, Clellon Holme's journals and correspondence.)
Snyder, Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady are the links between the
Beats and the Hippies (they were all at the Great Human Be-In of
January 1967.) Pictures like FLOWER THEIF and PULL MY DAISY showed
contemporary bohemia before JULES & JIM though the latter was
probably seen by more people by a small margin; the critics who
promoted JULES & JIM also promoted PULL MY DAISY and at one point
they even had the same distributor I think. I'd also add NIGHT TIDE
as a movie with a Beat sensibility (filmed in the then-Beat enclave
of Venice West.)
Bob Dylan was inspired by Kerouac and Ginsberg; Cassady electrified
the Merry Pranksters. (And William Burroughs was a Punk icon in the
late '70s and '80s, but that's a later development of the Great
Subculture.)
Richard
21278
From: Peter Henne
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:53pm
Subject: Re: Old Directors & The 'Cahiers' Mafia (was Re: Rivette Trashing Minnelli, Too)
Tom Sutpen,
Thanks very much for the reply. I can see we have some agreement. I, too, wish I had more time to devote to these posts, but unfortunately my Sunday is
turning into another work day. Pardon this short message,
Peter Henne
Tom Sutpen wrote:
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Peter Henne wrote:
> This strikes me as an oversimplification. Artists go through a
process of exploration. When abstract painters such as Kazimir
Malevich and Richard Diebenkorn returned to figurative painting, it
was not simply the case that they jettisoned all their old values.
They brought their own sensibility to realistic subjects. Artists also
question themselves--Kenneth Noland has spent his whole career doing
that, and it's led him to trying many new formats and allowing
gestural brushwork after decades of doing everything hard-edged. But I
can see a line of development in Noland's career; he has not simply
become a contradictory mess.
*****
Nor has Godard. And I take the apparent contradictions in his
statements both in interviews and in his films . . . declaring an end
to Cinema while still remaining a vital force within it . . . as a
sign of someone who doesn't pretend to know any of the answers, yet
isn't afraid to confront the questions posed by his work; not as an
indication that his thinking is hopelessly muddled or that he's given
over his life to a perpetual state of confusion (which the wording of
my post did indeed imply, sorry to say). Like all artists worthy of
the term, Godard's attitudes are ever-evolving. I just don't want to
be the one who has to keep track of which direction it evolves in or,
still worse, predict where it might go next.
For me, the same is true of Godard. When a voice (I believe it is a
voice-over) in "Helas Pour Moi" quotes Brialy's line in "A Woman Is a
Woman," "I can't tell if it's a comedy or a tragedy, but either way,
it's a masterpiece," and then mourns that he wishes he could tell the
difference, Godard is shooting a question at himself. If anything,
Godard moves on to
> stormier seas, not calmer ones. Critical self-examination allows an
artist (or anyone) to grow. And many great artists have seemingly
changed horses in mid-career, not only moderns.
*****
Correct, and all I was saying is that we have to accept whichever
horse he's traded in the old one for, regardless of how irrational a
choice it may appear to us to be. This is what I mean when I say he's
entitled to contradict himself. We'd be doing him and his work a
massive disservice if we demanded consistency from him the way we'd
demand it from an elected official.
> How do you accept an artist without bothering trying to figure out
what that individual says? I'm not sure what you mean here.
*****
Well, I probably should have worded that more precisely (it was a
*long* post and I was trying to get through it as fast as I could). I
think it's of important to discern what an artist is saying, but in
the limited time we can devote to the work of a given filmmaker
without closing ourselves off from the work of others, it does not
profit us to constantly examine and attempt to rationalize what he or
she is saying at *all* times. We have to, as a practical matter, place
limitations on how far we're willing to chase these matters down . . .
unless you're a Godard scholar and have committed some measure of your
life to the pursuit. To me, what's of critical (not Critical)interest
is Godard's work; what he's saying in that arena. That's the
topography I personally feel is more worthy of exploration. If he
makes statements in interviews which seem contradictory, well,
interesing though they may be, I can't dedicate vast amounts of time
toward trying to resolve them.
Tom Sutpen
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21279
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
Pictures like FLOWER THEIF and PULL
> MY DAISY showed
> contemporary bohemia before JULES & JIM though the
> latter was
> probably seen by more people by a small margin; the
> critics who
> promoted JULES & JIM also promoted PULL MY DAISY and
> at one point
> they even had the same distributor I think.
And eave us not forget that the female lead of PULL MY
DAISY is Delphine Seyrig.
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21280
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Beats & Beatniks (was: LA DOLCE VITA)
My first exposure as a child to a Beatnik character, was "Maynard G. Krebs"
(Bob Denver) on the TV comedy series "The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis"
(1959-1963). He played the bongo drums, said things like "Daddy-O!", and was a favorite
of kids throughout the US, including me. He was more a wanna-be - he was a
teenager trying to be a beatnik, rather than a full grown Jack Kerouac. "Beats"
were thus something very much in the public eye in US consciousness, by 1959.
I loved "The Flower Thief" (Ron Rice). But my one viewing decades ago excited
me more by the picture's visual style, than by any social content. Richard
Mondiano's suggestions that it and "Night Tide" (Curtis Harrington) have early
features of Beat culture is very interesting!
Mike Grost
So all the night tide I lay down by the side,
of my darling, my darling, my love and my bride.
In her sepulcher by the sea,
in her tomb by the sounding sea.
Poe - "Annabel Lee".
21281
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:16pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> And eave us not forget that the female lead of PULL MY
> DAISY is Delphine Seyrig.
Belated question to Bill: how could a French film about a French
and a German intellectual and their girlfriend before and just after
WWI have any serious influence on the American "counterculture" of
the sixties? There is nothing 'countercultural" in Truffaut's film
anyway. American artists, writers and intellectuals didn't wait for
Jules et Jim to show them how to engage in slightly unconventional
romantic relationships.
Speaking of "Jules et Jim" -- for nearly 20 years I have kept a
clipping from a Washington, D.C. newspaper movie schedule page
identifying the film as "Jewels and Gems."
21282
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:21pm
Subject: 'The Dreamers' and the Credulous (was Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> HUNH? "The Dreamers" got Bertolucci the biggest
> drubbing of his career.
*****
I thought that honor belonged to "Little Buddah". God knows the two
films make a matching set of low points in Bernardo Bertolucci's career.
Though you're correct that the film got slapped around mightily. My
reaction was based on the few good reviews I saw it get (Ebert's comes
vividly to mind) and its presence on at least two Top Ten
constructions. There's a certain kind of cinephile out there . . . you
all know exactly the kind I'm referring to . . . who'd be pre-disposed
to swoon over *any* movie if it was set in the midst of that deranged
circus which attended the firing of Langlois (you know, I never
understood all the rumpus. From a bureaucratic standpoint, the
Cultural Affairs Ministry was well within its bailiwick to toss him
out on the street. Why take to the streets? In Springtime, yet).
All Bertolucci needed to do was throw in a lot of sex and some old
clips then, quicker than you can say "La Commare Secca", he had these
birds flying through the skies on wings of delirium.
The whole thing makes me wince.
Tom Sutpen
21283
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
>
> Belated question to Bill: how could a French film
> about a French
> and a German intellectual and their girlfriend
> before and just after
> WWI have any serious influence on the American
> "counterculture" of
> the sixties?
Because while it was set in a period not our own it
reflected much of the zeitgeist. Jules and Jim were
like kids without parents -- making up their lives as
they went along.
There is nothing 'countercultural" in
> Truffaut's film
> anyway. American artists, writers and intellectuals
> didn't wait for
> Jules et Jim to show them how to engage in slightly
> unconventional
> romantic relationships.
>
True. And Truffaut himself was quite the conformist.
Yet there's something bohemian about the movie anyway.
Maybe Jeanne Moreau is its real auteur.
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21284
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: Re: 'The Dreamers' and the Credulous (was Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time)
--- Tom Sutpen wrote:
> *****
> I thought that honor belonged to "Little Buddah".
> God knows the two
> films make a matching set of low points in Bernardo
> Bertolucci's career.
>
Oh but Keanu was at his loveliest in it!
There's a certain kind of cinephile
> out there . . . you
> all know exactly the kind I'm referring to . . .
> who'd be pre-disposed
> to swoon over *any* movie if it was set in the midst
> of that deranged
> circus which attended the firing of Langlois
Ys, and here's a picture of him:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/News/03/14/gays.in.hollywood/link.author.jpg
(you
> know, I never
> understood all the rumpus. From a bureaucratic
> standpoint, the
> Cultural Affairs Ministry was well within its
> bailiwick to toss him
> out on the street. Why take to the streets? In
> Springtime, yet).
>
Because it was spring and REvolution was in the air.
You had to be there, Tom. And at the time you weren't
so much as gleam in your parent's eyes, correct?
> All Bertolucci needed to do was throw in a lot of
> sex and some old
> clips then, quicker than you can say "La Commare
> Secca", he had these
> birds flying through the skies on wings of delirium.
>
> The whole thing makes me wince.
>
Well it could have done with a lot MORE sex, IMO. And
where was Allen Midgette anyway (speaking of "La
Commare Secca")?
Or has he gone off to that Great Cinematheque in the
Sky?
>
>
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21285
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Most Dangerous Man Alive
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Bréan
> I can't exactly say I loved the film, because I was
> disturbed by the very slow pace and the many continuity errors.
I'm generally puzzled as to how understand what are
continuity "errors". I'd like to say, à la Ruiz, "What
continuity?", "Is there any continuity here?", but I have to
acknowledge that Dwan's work fits into a classic tradition that
takes such continuity as granted. (OT, and relatively speaking, such
commentaries have a special talent for getting on my nerves when
related to Mocky's pieces). As for MDMA, it's true that cutting is
rather harsh, which is notably explained by the impossible shooting
schedule. But this raw treatment seems to me constituent of the
subject. I'm not trying here to praise low budget for its own (re:
Lourcelles/Ulmer, or those guys masturbating with some Corman's
pieces), but Dwan precisely deals here with a declining, corrupted
world, the hardness and cruelty of which is admirably restored by
such a treatment. The desolation is also moral. You mention Silver
Lode ("Dwan's direction seemed much less dynamic to me than in
Silver Lode, for example. A sense of urgency was lacking, I
think."). I have always been a bit cooled down by this one, though I
admire it, where the unquestionable virtuosity appears to run
somewhat empty. Nothing but functional, in a way. Precisely, I
didn't see there any sense of urgency. In MDMA, every single shot
is burning of a steel glaze over the world before the Fall. Shots
pulled out from nothingness. Yelling, with the hero, "I wanna
feel", "I wanna die". The lightning ellipses are those of a
dissolving world. I'm not surprised by the reaction of your
brother's girlfriend (the semi-rape scene in the car is incredibly
violent), but men have their share too. Our monstrous hero is
precisely there to expiate the sins of his peers, in flames, trough
this impressive ending, that, as pointed out by Bill re: Biette,
echoes White Heat "top of the word".
> Oh, and I also wish we had not sit in the same
> row as a man who laughed repeatedly at the film...
This damned sniggering...
21286
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:51pm
Subject: Re: Corean cinema, recommendations?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr." > Do you
have a link to the list of 50 films? I can recommend films
> from the nineties and after, but have only seen one Korean film
> from the 60s (Obaltan / Aimless Bullet). I would recommend this
>(although the only remaining source is in pretty dire shape).
> I haven't seen any films from the 70s or 80s yet.
The program
http://www.cinemathequefrancaise.com/photos/16_coree.pdf
Films are from
Jeong Chang-hwa
Jang Sun-woo
Jeong Ji-young
Kang Dae-jin
Kim Ki-duk
Kim Soo-yong
Kim Ki-young
Im Kwon-taek
Im Chang-jae
Shin Sang-ok
Yoo Hyeon-mok
Lee Doo-yong
Lee Chang-dong
Lee Jang-ho
Lee Man-hee
Lee Kang-cheon
Lee Won-se
Bong Joon-ho
Song Neung-han
An Byung-ki
Yong-kyun Bae
Hong Sang-soo
Park Kwang-soo
Han Hyeong-mo
21287
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:54pm
Subject: Re: Padlock Chayefsky (was: I WORSHIP lists!)
> > In a message dated 01/16/2005 3:38:34 AM, noelbotevera@y...
writes:
> << Makes me wonder--what was the most effective piece of TV satire
> ever made? This? Being There? >>
Videodrome is shown on TV right now. Not precisely satire. But I
don't know anything more powerfull about TV images.
21288
From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:08pm
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
> After decades of movies about teenagers . . . from the Andy Hardy
> series to Larry Clark's lurid exercises . . . "Elephant" is the one
> that's come closest to getting it right; to replicating the emotional
> terrorism and rampant status-consciousness that passes for social
> interaction in that hideous environment.
Sorry to plug a friend's work, but Eugene Martin's "Edge City" very much
gets it right with the teenagers. IMHO.
-Sam Wells
21289
From:
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:29pm
Subject: 'The Dreamers' and the Credulous (was Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time)
>
> > HUNH? "The Dreamers" got Bertolucci the biggest
> > drubbing of his career.
>
Not quite. Here are only some of the good reviews THE DREAMERS got:
New York Magazine (Rainer)
The New York Times (AO Scott)
Chicago Tribune (Wilmington)
Premiere
Chicago Sun Times (Ebert)
NY Daily News
San Francisco Chronicle
Christian Science Monitor
Boston Globe
Rolling Stone
Washington Post
Newsweek
LA Weekly
There were lots of others who liked it, some mildly, and I'm sure a
lot of critics also hated it, but I always find it amazing when
people make these hyperbolic statements about the critics "hating" a
film or "giving it a drubbing" or whatever. The truth just doesn't
bear it out, folks. (And for the record, LUNA and TRAGEDY OF A
RIDICULOUS MAN were much more disliked than this. The latter was, as
I recall, booed at Cannes.
I happen to love THE DREAMERS, btw. But that's another story.
> I thought that honor belonged to "Little Buddah". God knows the two
> films make a matching set of low points in Bernardo Bertolucci's
career.
>
{bites tongue...}
-Bilge
21290
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Beats & Beatniks (was: LA DOLCE VITA)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> "The Beats had been assimilated into the mainstream..."
>
> Not by 1962. Beatnik villains were still a mainstay of US TV crime
> shows, and as late as 1964 Beats were either portrayed as comic
> incompetents or cynical villains in pictures like THE FLESH EATERS,
> THE BEAT GENERATION, THE HYPNOTIC EYE, TAKE HER SHE'S MINE.
My favorite TV beatniks were on an episode of "Dennis The Menace."
Bird-watcher Mr. Wilson placed an ad in the paper looking for other
bird lovers to form a club. The two guys who show up turned out to
be hipsters who thought he meant Charlie Parker.
-- Damien
21291
From: Damien Bona
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:46pm
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I never jest about earthshaking matters. I may exaggerate a little,
> but I do believe that (for those who saw it) JyJ offerred a first
> look at Bohemia, which was not very visible here the first year of
> JFK's short reign. The Beats had been assimilated into the
> mainstream - Bob Newhart started at the Hungry i, for heaven's
sake -
> and things like sharin' wimmen and not workin' and "just doin' it"
> were exciting news to some of us.
A friend of mine who was in college at the time said that for him and
a lot of people he knew, it was "Breakfast At Tiffany's" which opened
their eyes to the world's possibilities -- you had a beautiful woman
who clearly was sleeping around and didn't apologize for it,
an "older" woman who was unapologetic about having a rent boy and an
overall attitude about this is simply how things are.
21292
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:06am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> Speaking of "Jules et Jim" -- for nearly 20 years I have kept a
> clipping from a Washington, D.C. newspaper movie schedule page
> identifying the film as "Jewels and Gems."
I have a clipping from an old film magazine identifying Mark Hamill's
character in "Star Wars" as Luke Starkiller.
21293
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:09am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> So, was that your intro to the wonderful world of BDSM, Saul?
Well JP, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours???
No wait ... is a public forum such as this group a proper place to
post such details??
21294
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:25am
Subject: Re: EASY RIDER (was: LA DOLCE VITA)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jaketwilson" wrote:
> Far more disturbing to my youthful sense of morality was the scene
where
> Clint Eastwood rapes a prostitute in HIGH PLAINS DRIFTER -- also a
> favorite of my parents, though I doubt they'd seen it since it came
out.
> To say the least, it's hard to picture something like that happening in
> an American genre film today.
>
> JTW
Well, it would be hard to picture mainstream American films of the
50's, and perhaps even the 60's and 70's, containing the sheer amount
of blow jobs which they contain today - I used to think that stuff was
strictly filmed in the realm of pornography.
I do question your definition of "rape" though. As far as I remember,
she wanted it. She egged him on and, if memory serves, quite enjoyed
the whole experience. Perhaps living in a fronteir town she was
roughly abused by men, or thrown around, ensured the only way she
could connnect, sexually or otherwise, was through such abuse. But he
definantlty didn't force upon her anything she didn't want.
21295
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:32am
Subject: Re: My Heroes Have Always Been Good Guys
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> For some reason, I have always been much more interested in the good
guys in
> films, books and comics, than in the villains.
> Recent posts suggesting that viewers liked the drug dealer
protagonists in
> "Easy Rider" and sympathized with the killers in "Elephant" have
left me
> completely baffled. At least on an emotional level. I could never
take an interest in
> such people (although Peter Fonda's motorcycle outfit is cool.) I am
not
> wired inside to respond to them. Never liked JR on "Dallas", either,
or any other
> soap villains. Criminal masterminds in films like Die Hard just sem
like dead
> screen space to me.
> I did enjoy Burgess Meredith as The Penguin on Batman, and I like
non-violent
> Society Jewel Thieves, such as Cary Grant in "To Catch a Thief" or
Roger
> Moore on "The Saint" - although whether such characters are really
villains is an
> open question. Otherwise, zero in this depratment. I am still mad at
Tim
> Burton for giving Jack Nicholson a bigger role in "Batman" than
Michael Keaton.
> One of the things that bugs me about Hollywood films of the last 15
years is
> how sleazy many of the protagonists are. I would rather see 100%
heroes. This
> tends to spoil my enjoyment of the films. I like the old days, in
which the
> Lone Ranger would never kill anyone - only bad guys killed people.
> A big exception: the very enjoyable "Speed". Only the bad guys in
this film
> use violence. The heroes, Keanu Reeves, Jeff Daniels and the rest,
keep trying
> to help people. It gives the film a very interesting structure.
But the way your describing good guys and bad guys makes them
fundamentally the same on one level: they are both morally
uni-dimensional. Good guys who never shoot anymore are no more opaque
or layered than bad guys who are evil criminal masterminds. It is this
lack of morally ambiguity I dislike. The films of Sergio Leone are
full of moral ambiguity - even a character like James Bond or "Man on
Fire"s Creasy have a certain moral opaquness to them - it is this
which gives them 'depth' and which interests me in them. Plus, I find
deeply flawed characters (e.g. Cool Hand Luke or Newman's character in
"The Verdict") more intriguing than those perfect super-men who do
good or evil merely because the morally-bland universe they live in
only allows for those two extremes.
21296
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:52am
Subject: 'The Dreamers' and the Credulous (was Re: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Oh but Keanu was at his loveliest in it!
I thought that would have been one from the triple-Keanu Reeves
splurge of '91: "My Own Private Idaho", "Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey"
or "Point Break"
21297
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 0:57am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>(And William Burroughs was a Punk icon in the
> late '70s and '80s, but that's a later development of the Great
> Subculture.)
Wasn't it Burroughs who said, "I always though a punk was someone who
took it up the ass"??? While doing some work at a local tv station on
a chat show I was asked by one of the researchers to skip through a
book on punk history for any reference to Debbie Harry, as she was
being interviewed later in the week, and this is where I found the
Burroughs quote. I did in fact, very much in passing, meet her and sit
with her for a while as she waited in the green room.
21298
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:27am
Subject: The "rumpus" over Langlois (was:The Dreamers' and the Credulous
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>
There's a certain kind of cinephile out there . . . you
> all know exactly the kind I'm referring to . . . who'd be pre-
disposed
> to swoon over *any* movie if it was set in the midst of that
deranged
> circus which attended the firing of Langlois (you know, I never
> understood all the rumpus. From a bureaucratic standpoint, the
> Cultural Affairs Ministry was well within its bailiwick to toss him
> out on the street. Why take to the streets? In Springtime, yet).
>
To understand the rumpus, you'd have to have been there at the
time, and to have been a child of the Cinematheque, as all those
protesters were. Of course Langlois's management of the Cinematheque
was a disaster but very few cinephiles cared about that (they didn't
know, or didn't want to know). Langlois was a symbol of everything
they loved, because they had spent such a large portion of their
lives at the Cinematheque.
In 1977 "Les Cahiers de la Cinematheque de Toupouse" published a
thoroughly documented report on the Cinematheque Francaise and
Langlois, written by Raymond Borde, that set the record straight (it
was expanded in book form the same year) A bit late, but better late
than never (a few people had contested the 1968 hysteria, among
them Pierre Billard, and they were villified for it). Borde, who
died last September at age 84, was an important cinephilic figure,
founder of the Toulouse Cinematheque and author of several film
books, on everything under the sun from Renoir to film noir. He
wrote a famous "Letter to Robert Bresson" and his earliest work was
an unpublished essay on "The Economic Thought of Joseph Stalin" (I
kid you not. Only in France...
JPC
>
> Tom Sutpen
21299
From: Saul Symonds
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:28am
Subject: Quoting to save time (Was: Marina Razbezhkina's Harvest Time)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>My apologies, sir. I'd bow before you with vast
>humility, except I happen to be paralyzed with shame right at the
>moment.
> Tom "Catch my Humble act later" Sutpen
Dear Tom: I recall that you, not infrequently, compose posts where you
apologize for this or that. To save time, and not have to write such
long posts, it might be easier for you if you just collect up a bagful
of quotes wich you can dispense at the apporpriate moment. Below are
some starters:
The bible, always being a good source for quotes, (Old Testament makes
for good quotes, New Testament just sounds preachy):
"I have sinned ... and I will no more do thee harm ... behold, I have
played the fool and erred exceedingly" (I Samuel 26:21-23)
There's some great stuff in Blake in The Everlasting Gospel which I
can't recall now, though I'm sure Mike could suggest a few good ones,
so the only other quote I will give you is perhaps the only line I
remember from Dostoyevsky's "The Idiot": "I am naked and a beggar and
an atom in the vortex of humanity", (I think that one pretty much says
"Catch my humble act later")
Actually, driving through a small country town a while back I came
across the Humble Pie Restaurant, where you could, quite literally,
eat Humble Pie.
21300
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:33am
Subject: Re: LA DOLCE VITA (WAS: Multiplex Madness)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul Symonds"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> > So, was that your intro to the wonderful world of BDSM, Saul?
>
>
> Well JP, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours???
>
> No wait ... is a public forum such as this group a proper place to
> post such details??
This is definitely NOT the proper place. Private e-mails welcome.
JPC
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