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22001


From:
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:11am
Subject: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
I've always pronounced it the way I assumed the French pronounced it:
o-terre, to rhyme with share, pear and care. But almost all the North Americans I've
heard pronounce it this way: o-toor or o-two-er, to rhyme with moor. Thoughts?

Kevin John
22002


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:12am
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I've always pronounced it the way I assumed the French pronounced
it:
> o-terre, to rhyme with share, pear and care. But almost all the
North Americans I've
> heard pronounce it this way: o-toor or o-two-er, to rhyme with
moor. Thoughts?
>
> Kevin John

o-two-er is right - there's a u in there.
22003


From:
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:30am
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
In a message dated 01/29/2005 11:16:41 AM, hotlove666@y... writes:

<< o-two-er is right - there's a u in there. >>

So even native French speakers pronounce it "o-two-er?" There's a u in "leur"
but that's not pronounced "loo-er," right?

Kevin John
22004


From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:43am
Subject: Re: SPIDER/CRASH (WAS: Lacan, Psycho Culture)
 
"Spider" does not depend upon figuring out the secret, as in a
mystery, but rather as in the healing process of repressed memories.
Thematically, it is the most complex work of Cronenberg yet, as the
mind / body split already has occeured and, contra the films its
related to, "Dead Ringers" and "Naked Lunch", we are going backwards
in examinating what caused the mind / body split, rather than
following the progressive cause.

The, to me, single most brillian aspect of "Spider" is how Cronenberg
blends reality with hallucinations, substituting images, like his
constantly re-appearing mother, and thereby creates an abstract of
reality, which may or may not be reality, but is percieved as such by
Spider. Is reality causing his disease or is the disease creating his
reality?

Where "Crash" perhaps is Cronenberg's most accomplished work as a
storyteller, "Spider" is his most accomplished work as auteur, his
best work in respect to his examination of the mind / body split.

Contra to "who donnit" films like "Memento" or "Usual suspects", which
only become duller as we know the conclusion, "Spider" intensifies
with us knowing the conclusion, invites us back to revisit the film,
not because we want to see where the director played us, but to set
things in perspective, to figure out what is reality and what is
hallucination, and to use a quiet corny phrase, by doing so, "we are
caught in the spiders web", just as Spider himself is.

Henrik


--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I'm with Ehrenstein on this one. I'd loved everything he did in the
1990s
> (even M. BUTTERFLY) but SPIDER came off as too Chinese boxy, more
MEMENTO and THE
> USUAL SUSPECTS than NAKED LUNCH or CRASH, one of the very finest
(Bill's
> favorite word) films of the 1990s. The pay off in SPIDER seemed to
impinge upon
> figuring out a secret. But as with MEMENTO and THE USUAL SUSPECTS,
what do you
> do with your life after you've solved it? By contrast, CRASH had no
pay off
> which was the greatest pay off of all given the subject matter.
Touched with the
> divine!
>
> Kevin John
22005


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:45am
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- hotlove666 wrote:

> > Here's a crazy idea - let's all review the film now,
> > so we don't have
> > to talk about it when it comes out!

How do you top "King of the World"? Astonish us! That's what James
Cameron has done in Battle Angel, a 3-D IMAX version of the Japanese
graphic novel starring House of Flying Daggers cutie Ziyi Zhang,
looking seriously "pumped" here. Returning to his action film roots
and making good use of his experiments with IMAX 3-D in aqua-docs
made in the hiatus after Titanic, the Terminator guy shows he still
has the chops to deliver pure entertainment. A legend before its
premiere, the film took six years to complete, shutting down for
three hours for the marriage of Cameron and his star in front of the
Great Wall of China with a wedding party composed largely of bond
company assholes and paraplegic stuntmen. Cameron's decision to make
the film in Esperanto, which he describes as "the language of our
future," may hurt the boxoffice prospects, while the 4 1/2-hour
running time will probably discourage children with weak kidneys. The
picture is rated NC-27 for violence and in-your-face gore effects.
22006


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:46am
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 01/29/2005 11:16:41 AM, hotlove666@y... writes:
>
> << o-two-er is right - there's a u in there. >>
>
> So even native French speakers pronounce it "o-two-er?" There's a u
in "leur"
> but that's not pronounced "loo-er," right?
>
> Kevin John
o-toor would do it. Both are pronounced more nasally than our
flat "oor."
22007


From: Craig Keller
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:04pm
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 01/29/2005 11:16:41 AM, hotlove666@y... writes:
>>
>> << o-two-er is right - there's a u in there. >>
>>
>> So even native French speakers pronounce it "o-two-er?" There's a u
> in "leur"
>> but that's not pronounced "loo-er," right?
>>
>> Kevin John
> o-toor would do it. Both are pronounced more nasally than our
> flat "oor."

The "-eur" part is like a German "," but slightly more held back,
combined with the word "air" operating at approximately one-sixth its
usual aspirative momentum.

The easiest way to learn how to say it: Listen to a Frenchman speak.
Much to the chagrin of Ain't-It-Cool-News correspondents, it's not
pronounced "aw-tore."

craig.
22008


From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:17pm
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
I would say, that the -eur is very much like the American -ear in
learn. The sound is prepalatum and as a diftong is pronounced "long".
The au- is similar to the o sound of yo-yo, but is pronounced "short",
as it stands before a t.

Henrik
22009


From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:30pm
Subject: Re: million dollar baby
 
>
> Chris shopws great promise, but if you want to read a classic,
quote-
> every-line polemic against a wrong-headed critic, check out
Jonathan
> Rosenbaum's Film Comment review of Raising Kane, reprinted in
James
> Naremore's Casebook on Kane. I see that Chris has learned from
> Jonathan's gambit of starting out moderate, before launching into
the
> most scathing demolition job on Kael ever done. It's great to have
it
> back in print.

Thanks a lot for the plug, Bil, but I'm afraid my Film Comment anti-
Kael screed isn't in the Naremore collection (which has the Kane
chapter from THIS IS ORSON WELLLES). It's in Ronald Gottesman's
anthology on Kane published by G.K. Hall.

Jonathan (IN rotterdam)
22010


From: rpporton55
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 0:30pm
Subject: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
Hello,

I am finishing up a little Cineaste Editorial on the reception of Asian cinema in the U.S. and
would like to recommend a few web sites where Asian DVDs can be purchased.
(particularly if readers have access to multiregion players.) YesAsia and Poker Industries
have already been recommended to me, although one person told me that he never
received an order from Poker Industries. In addition, if anyone can suggest sites where
multiregion players can be purchased , I might try to incorporate that information as well.

Thanks in advance....


Richard Porton
22011


From: Dave Garrett
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:04pm
Subject: Re: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "rpporton55"
wrote:

> I am finishing up a little Cineaste Editorial on the reception of
Asian cinema in the U.S. and
> would like to recommend a few web sites where Asian DVDs can be
purchased.
> (particularly if readers have access to multiregion players.)
YesAsia and Poker Industries
> have already been recommended to me, although one person told me
that he never
> received an order from Poker Industries. In addition, if anyone
can suggest sites where
> multiregion players can be purchased , I might try to incorporate
that information as well.

For multiregion players, I've heard good things about 220 Electronics
(http://220-electronics.com/ ), but I've not personally ordered from
them. Playback Trading (http://playbacktrading.com/ ) also has
multiregion players. They used to have great customer service back
in the day when they used to be Laser Exchange; I've only ordered
from them a couple of times since then, but have had no problems. You
may also want to point out the very useful site VideoHelp.com
(http://www.videohelp.com/dvdhacks ).

For Asian DVDs, the two you mentioned would be my recommendation if
one is limited to US-based vendors; if overseas vendors are an
option, DDDHouse (http://dddhouse.com/dddhouse/en/index.jsp ) and
HiViZone (http://hivizone.com/ ) are both based out of Hong Kong
and even with shipping are quite a bit cheaper than the US-based
alternatives.

Dave
22012


From: Charles Hoehnen
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:11pm
Subject: RE: Lacan, Psycho Culture (Re: Scrosese's Detractors)
 
hotlove666 wrote:

>Spider is about a psychotic guy who represents nothing but himself,
>whereas Hughes represents a psychotic society. Spider is the best
>film Cronenberg has made in ages, and a better film than The Aviator,
>IMO. But that doesn't mean The Aviator isn't a very good film!
>

This is actually what I'd hoped to hear about The Aviator. I suppose I
don't have any real excuse to not see it. Darn.

Charlie Hoehnen / year90ninezero@h...

_________________________________________________________________
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22013


From: rpporton55
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
--- I>
> For Asian DVDs, the two you mentioned would be my recommendation if
> one is limited to US-based vendors; if overseas vendors are an
> option, DDDHouse (http://dddhouse.com/dddhouse/en/index.jsp ) and
> HiViZone (http://hivizone.com/ ) are both based out of Hong Kong
> and even with shipping are quite a bit cheaper than the US-based
> alternatives.

Thanks for the information, which is quite helpful. I assume these outfits all have DVDs
with English subtitles available.

RP
>
22014


From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
I've used http://www.hkflix.com/home.asp with success both for
players and import Asian discs.
--

- Joe Kaufman
22015


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:36pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
Quoting Adrian Martin :

> THE AVIATOR is a profoundly disillusioning film for me. It made me
>
> think that Scorsese hasn't made a completely coherent and satisfying
>
> film since KUNDUN. ...


You're absolutely right Mr. Martin, Scorsese hasn't even come
close to achieving anything of substance since the magnificent
"Kundun". But the interesting this is (and what makes me even happier
you brought it up)"Kundun" is precicely the film I'd chose to review
alongside the cinematic disaster that is "The Aviator". Both are bio-pics
of sorts that use a highly selective shuffle process of facts and
re-enactments in order to compress their obvious time restraints, both
leave out much of their subjects' later years (in kundun even more so
since he is still very much alive and active), and both feature men
somewhat born into their positions and statures who have to fight
to hold on to what they have. But in comparing the films themselves,
we are clearly dealing with one made by an artist, and one by
a Hollywood hack. "Kundun", though ellusive in many areas of
its narrative and its subject's life, is an intensely focused
and passionate account of a vanishing society and its patriarch's
responsabilites in lieu of its demise. Scorsese's artistry is
amply apparent in his careful and beautiful decision making;
instead of rushing by newsreel facts any historian could
dig up, he lets us soak and and bask in the serenity of
a culture and way of life threatened with extinction.
The majority of the gorgeosly composed scenes of the
Dalai Lama's growing exposure to his holy resposibilities
and to his people's plight contain imagery of awe and pain.
There are the surveying rats during meditation, the vultures
at the ceremonious funeral, the discovery of bloodshed
along with the glorious new film-projector, and the constant
tough war dialogues during tea-time among many others. All
of which culminate into one of Scorsese's very finest acheivments,
the emotional 15 minute escape montage. This is filmmaking
of a very fine order, as we simultaneously see the tense
need for escape from the Chinese, and the glorious intracacies
of the society left behind, and very likely to die; symbolicaly
encapsulated in the imagery of the Tibetan mat-painting, whose
colored grains are brushed together and brought along to be
spread out on the mountain tops (the culture's home has been broken,
but its spirit lives on and and is spread throughout). What a momentous
play with music these last minutes give us as well, with both rising
momentum to the prospects of the Dalai Lama's escape to save his life,
and painful yearning at what he is leaving behind, complete with
royal notes accorded to the various touching displays of sacrifice
given the Dalai Lama by his people (the old man and his horse,
the armed guards who will ride back home to their deaths-revealed
in a brilliant dlooy back ect.). "Kundun" is indeed as focused
on the co-existence of human pain and exaltation (just as the
Dalai Lama is on non-violence in violent times) as it is
on death, sacrifice, and rescpectful rememberance.
Those who claimed that Scorsese didn't know his subject
as well as his usual mobsters or New York loners were
missing the larger ambitions and considerations the director
had in mind, and achieved with more idyiosincracy than one
could have imagined (combining the necessary meditative
mise-en-scene with his usual operatic flare in cutting,
dissolving, and dreamlike photography).

What of "The Aviator"? Everything is lost in this film
(and after the debacle of "Gangs of New York", I suspect
any soul Scorsese may have had left in him). The film's
first 2 hours are nothing but jazzed up newsreel intros,
with any character edges or troubles heaved onto the cracked
shoulders of an embarrassing opening scene that makes
most Frued movie cliches seem eluminating by comparison.
When the film drags its skeleton purpose into its final
stretches and tries to emmerse itself into some type
of drama, it resorts to the most laughable recent
Hollywood trope: the power of free speech and its
ability to let you make a tear-jerking send-off
at a hearing that puts those damn law men in their
places (you might as well bunch Howard Hughes along
with Larry Flint and the Marquies De Sade now). Before that,
all the frames in the film have amounted to nothing but
a heap of glorified Hollywoof caricatures (from Louis B
Mayer, to the wasted gifts of Kate Blanchett doing
assorted Hepburn roles instead of the lady hearself, to
a useless Errol Flynn). Does Scorsese Mise en Scene save
any of the rubish? For a director who was once blessed
with a visual imagination that suited his character's
disfunctions, having to resort to a camera roaming about
various CGI-filled set-pieces, and passionless
fan-magazine parade recreations hardly seems up-lifting.
Unless Mise-en-scene has now been misunderstood as strictly
the adaptness at peddling eye-candy (we might as well
get a shrine going for David Fincher while we're at it).
Is it too narrow minded to assume that Scorsese has
simply sold himself for a more publicly accesible project
as well as a yellow-brick road to the Oscar podium?
After both "Gangs of New York" and this even worse
submission, I would have to say that the leaning
in definetly in that direction. I am not exactly
what you'd call a Martin Scorsese "fan",
but the passion I felt for him after films
like "The King of Comedy", "Taxi Driver",
"Raging Bull", "Kundun", and the "Life Lessons"
segment of "New York Stories" was undeniable.
But selling himself like he has in recent times
is hard to swallow for a man of already raised
stature and clout (it's not like his more
personal projects have been directed on shoe-strings
you know). I don't know as of yet where the man
will go from here, or what these recent travesties
will do to his legacy (which I know many cinephiles
hold more dearly than I do), but this is not the
way to go out for a once ambitious movie-brat
(it is now painfully clear that the only director
from that generation who has still marched to his own beat
this new millenium is Brian De Palma with "Femme Fatale").

Mathieu Ricordi
22016


From: Robert Keser
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
Here's a list of Korean films on DVD and VHS with English
subtitles,
including their regional configurations:
http://www.koreanfilm.org/subtitles.html

These can be purchased through YeonDVD in Seoul, which has excellent
service in my experience (and is run by film scholar Darcy Paquet
and his wife):
http://www.yeondvd.com/

CDJAPAN has good service as well, but their site is a bit confusing
to use, especially at first:
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/


--Robert Keser
22017


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:45pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
Quoting David Ehrenstein :


> There are only TWO cinematic Marty-alter-egos: Griffin
>
> Dunne in "After Hours" and Daniel Day Lewis in "The
>
> Age of Innocence"

> Everyone else is the brother nobody wants to talk
>
> about.


Actually, you are forgetting Lionel Dobie, the Nick Nolte
tortured artist role in the criminaly under-appreciated
little Scorsese gem "Life Lessons" from "New York Stories".

Mathieu Ricordi
22018


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:48pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:


> Is it too narrow minded to assume that Scorsese has
> simply sold himself for a more publicly accesible
> project
> as well as a yellow-brick road to the Oscar podium?


Yes.

I am not exactly
> what you'd call a Martin Scorsese "fan"

No shit, Sherlock!!

> but the passion I felt for him after films
> like "The King of Comedy", "Taxi Driver",
> "Raging Bull", "Kundun", and the "Life Lessons"
> segment of "New York Stories" was undeniable.

After this diatribe i have absolutely no idea of what
you mean by "passion."


> But selling himself like he has in recent times
> is hard to swallow for a man of already raised
> stature and clout (it's not like his more
> personal projects have been directed on shoe-strings
> you know). I don't know as of yet where the man
> will go from here, or what these recent travesties
> will do to his legacy (which I know many cinephiles
> hold more dearly than I do), but this is not the
> way to go out for a once ambitious movie-brat
> (it is now painfully clear that the only director
> from that generation who has still marched to his
> own beat
> this new millenium is Brian De Palma with "Femme
> Fatale").
>

Well gag me with the proverbial spoon.

I smell a Paulette!



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22019


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:53pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:


>
>
> Actually, you are forgetting Lionel Dobie, the Nick
> Nolte
> tortured artist role in the criminaly
> under-appreciated
> little Scorsese gem "Life Lessons" from "New York
> Stories".
>

Only to the degree that Marty's terribly superfond of
Rosanna Arqueete. However his girlfriend of that
moment, Illeana Douglas (who got the Gloria Grahame
treatment in "Cape Fear") plays a pivotal role in
"Life Lessons."

And there's brief shot of Michael Powell (the last
we'll ever see of him) in the film as well.

Mr. Powell would have adored Cate Blanchett -- and
Marty's use of color. And on that level "The Aviator"
is something of a cross between "Yang Kwei Fei" and
"Red Desert" -- with just a scooch of "Black
Narcissus."



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22020


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:12pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
Quoting David Ehrenstein :



> I am not exactly
>
> > what you'd call a Martin Scorsese "fan"
>

> No shit, Sherlock!!

Why do you answer like this? Just because I haven't
liked his recent films? Did you not read by rave of
"Kundun" just before my dismissal of "The Aviator"?




but the passion I felt for him after films
>
> > like "The King of Comedy", "Taxi Driver",
>
> > "Raging Bull", "Kundun", and the "Life Lessons"
>
> > segment of "New York Stories" was undeniable.
>
> After this diatribe i have absolutely no idea of what
>
> you mean by "passion."


Look, I know that I have been harsh on a film you
love, but I yield to no one in my passion for cinema
(hence my distaste for "The Aviator), to try and indicate
I have none on the grounds of a disagreement makes no sense.
Which brings me to.........




> Well gag me with the proverbial spoon.

> I smell a Paulette!

Now we are just being low. Again, I knew that I was
going to fuel your wrath by trampling on "The Aviator",
but to call me a name that indicates loyalty to one
of my most destested of film critics (if such a word
can be used to describe her) with no proof or foundation
is overreaching in your rebuttle. Regardless of the fact
that I'm not even remotly a Brian De Palma lover
(I like Scorsese a whole lot more if you must know),
the dumb notion that even if I was, that would somehow
make me a Kael lover is the worst kind of tribalist
thought process I can think of (like assuming that
because I like Jonathan Rosenbaum, that I have to love
Kiarostami and because I like Armond White that I have to
hate Michael Mann and love Speilberg). Regardless of anyone's
opinion on Brian De Palma, there is little doubt that "Femme Fatale"
is the most personal 'movie brat' film of the millenium, and saying
so should be no indication of what I think of the rest of that director's
ouevre; or even more ridicoulous, of a critic who happened to
champion him.

Mathieu Ricordi
22021


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:29pm
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
>
> I would say, that the -eur is very much like the American -ear in
> learn. The sound is prepalatum and as a diftong is
pronounced "long".
> The au- is similar to the o sound of yo-yo, but is
pronounced "short",
> as it stands before a t.
>
> Henrik

Henrik gets an "A", the others flunked. "eur" in "auteur" is indeed
closest to what you hear in the English "lear(n)" -- or "fir".

Auteur rhymes with Tourneur. it's always fun to hear Bob Osborne
pronounce that name on TCM. (it's also fun to hear the French
pronounce some American names, especially Boetticher and Scorsese,
which you probably wouldn't recognize).

JPC
22022


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:34pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:


>
> Why do you answer like this? Just because I haven't
> liked his recent films? Did you not read by rave of
> "Kundun" just before my dismissal of "The Aviator"?
>
This is anot a matter of "product loyalty." Yes I read
what you had to say about "Kundun," and I disagree.
It's in interesting minor work, IMO. That you prefer
it to "The Aviator" is a perfectly respectable
critical opinion. It's your loathing for "The Aviator"
that I don't understand. There are any number of
perfectly legitimate reasons for finding fault with
it. But that's not what I sense form posts that talk
about Marty losing his soul.

"Everything but the hound dogs yappin' at her rear
end" comes to mind.


>
>
> Look, I know that I have been harsh on a film you
> love, but I yield to no one in my passion for cinema
>
> (hence my distaste for "The Aviator), to try and
> indicate
> I have none on the grounds of a disagreement makes
> no sense.
> Which brings me to.........
>
>
>
>
> > Well gag me with the proverbial spoon.
>
> > I smell a Paulette!
>
> Now we are just being low. Again, I knew that I was
> going to fuel your wrath by trampling on "The
> Aviator",
> but to call me a name that indicates loyalty to one
> of my most destested of film critics (if such a word
> can be used to describe her) with no proof or
> foundation
> is overreaching in your rebuttle.

Not at all. DePalma has been a well-used rubber
chicken to hit Marty over the head with. Easily done.
They know each other, came along at the same time,
etc. Butthe only thing Marty got from DePalma was
Robert DeNiro.

If you prefer mindless demonstrations of "technique"
above all else then he's your man. Filmslike "The
Aviator" are a good deal more complex.


Regardless of the
> fact
> that I'm not even remotly a Brian De Palma lover

Then why birng him up in such a fashion?

> (I like Scorsese a whole lot more if you must know),

Yes, I must.

> the dumb notion that even if I was, that would
> somehow
> make me a Kael lover is the worst kind of tribalist
> thought process I can think of (like assuming that
> because I like Jonathan Rosenbaum, that I have to
> love
> Kiarostami and because I like Armond White that I
> have to
> hate Michael Mann and love Speilberg).

Getting rather crowded in there, no?

Well I like Jonathan a whole bunch having known him
for more than half my life, but we rarely agree on
anything. So?


Regardless of
> anyone's
> opinion on Brian De Palma, there is little doubt
> that "Femme Fatale"
> is the most personal 'movie brat' film of the
> millenium, and saying
> so should be no indication of what I think of the
> rest of that director's
> ouevre; or even more ridicoulous, of a critic who
> happened to
> champion him.
>

This "movie brat" business is truly annoying. Did
Peter Biskind bite you in the neck late one evening at
Telluride?
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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22023


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:18pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
Quoting David Ehrenstein :

> There are any number of
>
> perfectly legitimate reasons for finding fault with
>
> it. But that's not what I sense form posts that talk
>
> about Marty losing his soul.


That was hardly the basis for my argument. I merely
suggested that perhaps his decline suggested a
selling out to Hollywood, but this was in no
way what I leaned on to denounce the film.


> If you prefer mindless demonstrations of "technique"
>
> above all else then he's your man. Filmslike "The
>
> Aviator" are a good deal more complex.


So now you're putting words in my mouth. As I said
before, De Palma is far from being "my man", and
mindless technique displays are nowhere near what I
seek in cinema. Although I couldn't think of a more
apt description for "The Aviator", or for liking
it above "Kundun".

> Regardless of the
>
> > fact
>
> > that I'm not even remotly a Brian De Palma lover
>
> Then why birng him up in such a fashion?

I didn't realize that by simply stating he had made a more personal
film in the new millenium than Scorsese, Speilberg, Lucas,
Demme ect, I was somehow bringing De Palma "up in such a
fashion" (although now I realize that I neglected to include
Peter Bogdanovich, whose "Cat's Meow" seems very personal as well).
You should read posts more carefully before jumping.



> Well I like Jonathan a whole bunch having known him
>
> for more than half my life, but we rarely agree on
>
> anything. So?


Why are you asking me? You're the one who assumed I liked
Pauline Kael (not to mention De Palma) just because I evoked
"Femme Fatale" as a more personal film than "The Aviator".
If anything you're proving my point, that it's ridiculous to
assume one links ones respect towards a critic based on similair
directorial/film taste, and vice-verca (i.e despite our little
back-and-forth scuffle here, and your dubious twisting
of almost everything I've said, I've respected you as a
critic ever since your brilliant defence of "Bram Stoker's
Dracula" in Film Comment)


> This "movie brat" business is truly annoying.

Oh, and evoking the stupid phrase "Paulette" is not?



>Did
> Peter Biskind bite you in the neck late one evening at
>
> Telluride?

Ooh, what wit.


Mathieu Ricordi
22024


From: K. A. Westphal
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:27pm
Subject: Armond White (Was: Re: A notable critic)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi wrote:


> >His review of LIFE AQUATIC was obviously genuine, but also bothersome;
> >
> > he's going to stick by Anderson till end of days.
>
> Actually, if memory serves, White was not a champion of "Rushmore",
> and even less of "Bottle Rocket". It seems Wes Anderson is slowly
> growing on him, and that's both welcome and a great sign.
> White's "Life Aquatic" praise was one of his great intuitions this
> year, because the majority of critics just plainly didn't get
> it, and therefore resorted to panning it. Though he had it last
> on his top ten list, White's "life Aquatic" inclusion is a
> relief (same for Mr. Ehrenstien and Mr. Fujiwara).

I never read White's original review of RUSHMORE (if he wrote one),
but I do remember that he began his review of BETTER LUCK TOMORROW
extolling Margaret Yang in RUSHMORE as the greatest Asian-American
character on cinema screens, like, ever.

--Kyle
22025


From: K. A. Westphal
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:32pm
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> I've always pronounced it the way I assumed the French pronounced it:
> o-terre, to rhyme with share, pear and care. But almost all the
North Americans I've
> heard pronounce it this way: o-toor or o-two-er, to rhyme with moor.
Thoughts?
>
> Kevin John

Seems like most auteurists are either watching films or sitting by
their computers discussing these films on a_film_by.

Hence, given the lack of human interaction, one needn't know how to
pronounce it.

=)

--Kyle
22026


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:33pm
Subject: Re: re: Scorsese's detractors
 
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:


>
>
> That was hardly the basis for my argument. I merely
> suggested that perhaps his decline suggested a
> selling out to Hollywood, but this was in no
> way what I leaned on to denounce the film.
>
>

Well it's been quite a long sell-out.

Frankly much of what you say applies to "gangs of New
York," which I initially thought a failure but now
feel is quite frankly his worst film. "Cape Fear" and
"Bringing Out the dead" while very very minor don't
reach quite as high. Moreover it appears to have been
made in the "state of panic" Mankiewicz e=mentioned
when speaking of his "Cleopatra" -- also shot in
Italy, but in a different era.

"The Aviator" is a major comeback, IMO. Never for a
oment did I wonder "why in hell are we looking at this
now?" as I did throughout "GONY"

> > If you prefer mindless demonstrations of
> "technique"
> >
> > above all else then he's your man. Filmslike "The
> >
> > Aviator" are a good deal more complex.
>
>
> So now you're putting words in my mouth. As I said
> before, De Palma is far from being "my man", and
> mindless technique displays are nowhere near what I
> seek in cinema. Although I couldn't think of a more
> apt description for "The Aviator", or for liking
> it above "Kundun".
>
"Femme Fatale" is nothing BUT a technical exercise --
something that I wouldn't say of "Scarface" or even
"Dressed to Kill."

>
> I didn't realize that by simply stating he had made
> a more personal
> film in the new millenium than Scorsese, Speilberg,
> Lucas,
> Demme ect, I was somehow bringing De Palma "up in
> such a
> fashion" (although now I realize that I neglected to
> include
> Peter Bogdanovich, whose "Cat's Meow" seems very
> personal as well).
> You should read posts more carefully before jumping.
>
It was because of the example you cited. Had you said
"I prefer DePalma's work as a whole" we'd be in a
different ballpark."

>
> Why are you asking me? You're the one who assumed I
> liked
> Pauline Kael (not to mention De Palma) just because
> I evoked
> "Femme Fatale" as a more personal film than "The
> Aviator".

And as I said it's not as unreasonable an assumption
as you imagine.

> If anything you're proving my point, that it's
> ridiculous to
> assume one links ones respect towards a critic based
> on similair
> directorial/film taste, and vice-verca (i.e despite
> our little
> back-and-forth scuffle here, and your dubious
> twisting
> of almost everything I've said, I've respected you
> as a
> critic ever since your brilliant defence of "Bram
> Stoker's
> Dracula" in Film Comment)
>
>
Well thanks. But let this be a lesson to you, young
man (I'm doing George Coulouris in "Kane" right now)
one review does not a critic encapulate.

> > This "movie brat" business is truly annoying.
>
> Oh, and evoking the stupid phrase "Paulette" is not?
>

I can't even josh you a little?

>
> >Did
> > Peter Biskind bite you in the neck late one
> evening at
> >
> > Telluride?
>
> Ooh, what wit.
>
>
> Merci, Mathieu -- and lighten up!
>
>
>
>
>

22027


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Armond White (Was: Re: A notable critic)
 
Quoting "K. A. Westphal" :

> I never read White's original review of RUSHMORE (if he wrote one),
>
> but I do remember that he began his review of BETTER LUCK TOMORROW
>
> extolling Margaret Yang in RUSHMORE as the greatest Asian-American
>
> character on cinema screens, like, ever.

> --Kyle

That's true, but it doesn't say much for what he thought
of the movie. I put more stock behind a Film Comment issue
around the time of Rushmore's release where many critics
were asked to rate the current films. When it came to "Rushmore",
I believe Armond only gave the film 2 stars, and it may have
even been 1. Also, in an interview, when asked about what he thought
of Wes Anderson, White responded "I love that he shoots wide, I love him
for that", hardly seems very glowing (and that was around the time
of "The Royal Tenenbaums" which started to turn him around. Even
"The Life Aquatic" (which he seems like to like best of all) only
made tenth spot on his list this year. So, Armond is slowly turning around
to Wes Anderson, but I'd hardly call him a fan who will "stick by him to
the end of days" just yet. But for what it's worth, I am, and I haven't
seen anything to detract me yet.

Mathieu Ricordi
22028


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:46pm
Subject: Re: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "K. A. Westphal"
wrote:

>
> Seems like most auteurists are either watching films or sitting by
> their computers discussing these films on a_film_by.
>
> Hence, given the lack of human interaction, one needn't know how to
> pronounce it.
>
> =)
>
> --Kyle

Ignorance is bliss, Kyle.
22029


From: K. A. Westphal
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:02pm
Subject: Wes Anderson (Was: Armond White)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi wrote:

So, Armond is slowly turning around
> to Wes Anderson, but I'd hardly call him a fan who will "stick by him to
> the end of days" just yet. But for what it's worth, I am, and I haven't
> seen anything to detract me yet.
>
> Mathieu Ricordi

As someone who considers ROYAL TENENBAUMS and RUSHMORE masterpieces, I
found LIFE AQUATIC unbearably unfocused. Armond's defense of the film
struck me as a modern-day critical jiggling akin to what Kael saw in
the auteurist justification of the later Preminger and Hawks films.

There are two moments emblematic of LIFE AQUATIC for me; both are
accidental in their own way.

1. Early in the film, Zissou stands on the deck of the boat after the
festival screening and lights a cigarette. It's in slow-motion, but
not the fluid slow-motion that strikes me as one of Anderson's
trademarks. Instead, it's blurred, an indication to me that it was
shot at 24 fps and slowed down in post using optics. It's a minor
thing to complain about, but I saw it as a central example of Anderson
having only a sketchy concept of the film we wanted to make.

2. I saw LIFE AQUATIC during a preview screening at Doc Films and it
was the sort of Doc experience that Fred and Jason are used to by now.
Even though the house was full and people had been waiting in line for
hours, Doc didn't put its best projectionist on the job. So, the film
began, framing was fine. Then the first reel ended, and after the
changeover, Ned had decided to finance Zissou's newest adventure. (The
scene in the brown office with the long panning). After about two
minutes, the projector stopped and they announced from the booth,
"Sorry, we switched the reels. Give us a moment!"

Anyway, so I had seen the first reel and moved onto the third reel,
but it didn't feel abrupt at all. It would've taken me a couple
minutes to know I had missed something. I groaned at this prospect.
Two reels of exposition for a six-reel movie? There's *another* 20
minutes of Team Zissou schleping around trying to find money?

I have a decent attention span (for someone my age, at least), but
upon realizing I had another 20 minutes of exposition, I became very
unsure of Anderson's ability to move his story along at the proper pace.

Not that RUSHMORE or ROYAL TENENBAUMS are great movies for a thorough
linear construction, but my intuitive reaction to LIFE AQUATIC ruined
the film for me.

--Kyle Westphal
22030


From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism in Passion of the Christ (was: Clint's Detractors)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> I know I posted this before, but it might be worth it posting it
> again:
>
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/425
>
> Of note is Cunningham's article: he makes as good and thorough
> argument as any I know on the movie's anti-Semitism.
>
> As for an asthetic argument, I try at one here (again, repeat
> posting but I feel worth repeating):
>
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/425

Sorry, that last link was incorrect. Here's the second article:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/noelmoviereviews/message/427
22031


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:57pm
Subject: Re: Wes Anderson (Was: Armond White)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "K. A. Westphal"
wrote:
my intuitive reaction to LIFE AQUATIC ruined
> the film for me.

Sounds like it was ruined by the fluffed projection. It was my
favorite H'wd film of the year. Think Red River - also big and
sprawling.
22032


From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:00pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
James Cameron's Battle Angel, based on the Japanese anime of the
same name, outdoes the Titanic in terms of sheer size, cost, decibel
level, and obviousness. The film took five years to complete and 1.2
billion dollars to finance (a triple partnership between Rupert
Murdoch, George Lucas, Mel Gibson, and Microsoft), and is easily the
biggest production ever based on a cartoon, if not the biggest
production ever made.

While the battle scenes are up to Cameron's standards--the razing of
Los Angeles with a pair of humungous pinking shears being the most
vivid example--the drama, alas, is also typical Cameron: terrible by
almost anyone's standard. The dialogue is penny-dreadful awful, with
most of it consisting of the heroine crying out "HIRO!" and the
young man (his full name is "Hiro Protagonist") replying: "ANGEL!"
as they are chased up and down the battlefield. There are scenes of
extreme violence, badly edited, plus scenes of sopping
sentimentality, badly acted; the one scene of robot sex had a member
of the audience crying out "GET SOME LUBRICANT!" Everyone in the
theater burst out laughing.

Perhaps the most troublesome aspect of the whole production is
Cameron's attempt to tie the violence to some good ole-fashioned
religion: thus it's suggested that the Angel is a real angel, that
her foes are the Army of Darkness, and that their ultimate
confrontation is the Apocalypse. The passing out of pamphlets
outside the theater titled "ARE YOU SAVED?" did not help to dispel
suspicions with regards to the fundamentalist subtext.

The scenes of torture and mutilation are thus justified as
being "for the glory of God," and to show just how rotten the forces
of evil really are. That the enemy soldiers have pronouncedly
Semitic and Arabic features, that the arch-villain bears an uncanny
resemblance to NY Times columnist Frank Rich, and that said villain
suffers a grisly fate (his intestines and his pet dog are both
roasted on a stick) tends to suggest that there is perhaps a hidden
agenda behind all this. What it is, exactly, is anyone's guess.
22033


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wes Anderson (Was: Armond White)
 
Quoting hotlove666 :


> Sounds like it was ruined by the fluffed projection. It was my
>
> favorite H'wd film of the year. Think Red River - also big and
>
> sprawling.



Damn straight. Unfortunately I don't have the time
to give my two cents at the moment (I'd feel the need
to really get into the film), but you should all be expecting it
in the near future. In the meantime, those who got it..let loose!

Mathieu Ricordi
22034


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:

>
> Perhaps the most troublesome aspect of the whole production is
> Cameron's attempt to tie the violence to some good ole-fashioned
> religion: thus it's suggested that the Angel is a real angel, that
> her foes are the Army of Darkness, and that their ultimate
> confrontation is the Apocalypse. The passing out of pamphlets
> outside the theater titled "ARE YOU SAVED?" did not help to dispel
> suspicions with regards to the fundamentalist subtext.
>
> The scenes of torture and mutilation are thus justified as
> being "for the glory of God," and to show just how rotten the
forces
> of evil really are. That the enemy soldiers have pronouncedly
> Semitic and Arabic features, that the arch-villain bears an uncanny
> resemblance to NY Times columnist Frank Rich, and that said villain
> suffers a grisly fate (his intestines and his pet dog are both
> roasted on a stick) tends to suggest that there is perhaps a hidden
> agenda behind all this. What it is, exactly, is anyone's guess.

I knew I could count on you for the Political Reading, Noel. Now we
need a learned opinion from an expert on comic books about how
Cameron f**ked up his source, and we'll all be off the hook when the
film finally opens in about 10 years. Unless soemone wants to have a
go at it in French?
22035


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

>
> I knew I could count on you for the Political Reading, Noel. Now
we
> need a learned opinion from an expert on comic books about how
> Cameron f**ked up his source, and we'll all be off the hook when
the
> film finally opens in about 10 years. Unless soemone wants to have
a
> go at it in French?

Well, excuse me for butting in, Bill, but you have been such a
prominent figure in French Film Criticism for the past several
decades that I would have hoped that you at least knew how to
pronounce "auteur". Of course this is no reflection on your ability
as a critic. Just an insignificant marginal note. JPC
22036


From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> I knew I could count on you for the Political Reading, Noel. Now
we
> need a learned opinion from an expert on comic books about how
> Cameron f**ked up his source

I've seen the first OAV (Original Animation Video) or OVA (Original
Video Animation) of Battle Angel Aelita (the full title). It has a
purity and simplicity--very little in it except violence, and a
beautifully fatal part mecha, part human woman--that I'm almost sure
an American director will fuck up.
22037


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:20pm
Subject: Mighty Aphrodite
 
Speaking of Political Readings (see previous post), I just watched
Mighty Aphrodite for the first time with great pleasure. I mention it
only because I recall being put off by the taunts of critics about
classism and misogyny at the time. Did Walsh review this one? In any
case, it's not a work of cinematic art, but it's great Woody Allen.
He seems to flourish for about four films after he starts a new
romance, as in this one, coming at the end of the beginning of his
Soon-Yee period. If anything, it's a Freudian film, with Oedipus
playing second banana to Lenny, who obviously is obsessed with Linda
before meeting her because she symbolizes Mom to him. (Murray Abram
hands him the pen from offscreen to write down her address.)
Aphrodite trumping Oedipus - kind of an autobiographical "Incest,
what's the big deal?" Love that chorus.
22038


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:25pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I knew I could count on you for the Political Reading, Noel. Now
> we
> > need a learned opinion from an expert on comic books about how
> > Cameron f**ked up his source, and we'll all be off the hook when
> the
> > film finally opens in about 10 years. Unless soemone wants to
have
> a
> > go at it in French?
>
> Well, excuse me for butting in, Bill, but you have been such a
> prominent figure in French Film Criticism for the past several
> decades that I would have hoped that you at least knew how to
> pronounce "auteur". Of course this is no reflection on your ability
> as a critic. Just an insignificant marginal note. JPC

Thanks for the compliment, JP - you should see me pronouncing it in
person! I'm fluent, but scarcely unaccented.
22039


From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:32pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> I've seen the first OAV (Original Animation Video) or OVA
(Original
> Video Animation) of Battle Angel Aelita (the full title). It has a
> purity and simplicity--very little in it except violence, and a
> beautifully fatal part mecha, part human woman--that I'm almost
sure
> an American director will fuck up.

Correction: it's Battle Angel Alita. Otakus are tickled pink over
the possible connection with the Russian silent film.

More than you will ever want to know about Battle Angel Alita:

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/rune/241/seraph/gfaq.html
22040


From: Gary Tooze
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:35pm
Subject: Re: Mighty Aphrodite
 
At 01:25 AM 1/30/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>Speaking of Political Readings (see previous post), I just watched
>Mighty Aphrodite for the first time with great pleasure. I mention it
>only because I recall being put off by the taunts of critics about
>classism and misogyny at the time. Did Walsh review this one? In any
>case, it's not a work of cinematic art, but it's great Woody Allen.
>He seems to flourish for about four films after he starts a new
>romance, as in this one, coming at the end of the beginning of his
>Soon-Yee period. If anything, it's a Freudian film, with Oedipus
>playing second banana to Lenny, who obviously is obsessed with Linda
>before meeting her because she symbolizes Mom to him. (Murray Abram
>hands him the pen from offscreen to write down her address.)
>Aphrodite trumping Oedipus - kind of an autobiographical "Incest,
>what's the big deal?" Love that chorus.


It is in my top 3 Woody Allens... and I agree - many critics seemed to
ensnarl Allen's personal life into their critique at the time of this
release - hence denouncing him... and it.

My review is here:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview2/mightyaphrodite.htm

The encompassing desire to know his adopted son's true mother is, alone,
reflective of a Greek tragedy in the making. Supporting this intelligent
association is a occasional narration by a Greek Chorus whose third wall
with the audience is typically broken. Of course the references with
classical theatre are rife and the humor abounds further when Lenny (Allen)
finds, to his utter disbelief, the mother of his child is a dim-witted,
simple yet lovable hooker/porn star named (among other obscene pseudonyms)
Linda Ash. Her charm, melded with this dumfounded, slap-your-forehead
circumstance drives Lenny to learn more and help poor Linda overcome her
sex-trade limitations. Culminating with a dramaturgical twist worthy of
Shakespeare, Allen even throws in Deus ex machina to turn the teetering
bittersweet comedy to one of the most joyful endings I have ever seen...
Ever! This is not simply a good Woody Allen film, but rather book-ended
with "Crimes and Misdemeanors" and "Sweet and Lowdown" as his best (Yes...
I have seen them all!). To convince me I am accurate in this statement, I
need simply to see it again or better yet, just ask my 15 month old son
Kyle... he's a genius and he loves the singing and dancing of the Greek
Chorus!

Cheers,
Gary
22041


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
>
> Thanks for the compliment, JP - you should see me pronouncing it
in
> person! I'm fluent, but scarcely unaccented.

What does that mean??? If you're fluent why don't you write your
stuff directly in French instead of having it translated? Don't you
know how awful translations sound?
22042


From: Aaron Graham
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Wes Anderson (Was: Armond White)
 
> Quoting hotlove666 :
>
>
> > Sounds like it was ruined by the fluffed projection. It was my
> >
> > favorite H'wd film of the year. Think Red River - also big and
> >
> > sprawling.
>

After all of the negative reviews, I was expecting to be let down by
Anderson's fourth effort, and found it to be my second favorite of
his work so far. I really don't know what's not to love: the music
choices were perfect, he had his best assembled cast yet, and I think
a new co-writer brought some new freshness and creativity onto the
project.

I've read that Peter Ustinov was originally cast in the Michael
Gambon role, and that Anderson had originally written with him in
mind. If only that had come to pass, I'm sure that the stroll at the
end to "Queen Bitch" would have been as big a "Topkapi" reference
as "Buckaroo Banzai" ultimately was.

-Aaron
22044


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:50pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's Next?
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Thanks for the compliment, JP - you should see me pronouncing it
> in
> > person! I'm fluent, but scarcely unaccented.
>
> What does that mean??? If you're fluent why don't you write
your
> stuff directly in French instead of having it translated? Don't you
> know how awful translations sound?

Experiments in that direction have failed. And my written French
isn't as good as your written English. I've had more occasion to
speak it.
22045


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Wes Anderson (Was: Armond White)
 
--- Aaron Graham wrote:


> I've read that Peter Ustinov was originally cast in
> the Michael
> Gambon role, and that Anderson had originally
> written with him in
> mind. If only that had come to pass, I'm sure that
> the stroll at the
> end to "Queen Bitch" would have been as big a
> "Topkapi" reference
> as "Buckaroo Banzai" ultimately was.
>

The casting of Ustinov would have re-inforced the
"Lola Montes" references -- specifically the scene
where Steve walks the length of the ship -- which is a
reprise of the one Martine Carol does as a young girl
while her mother is waltzing and canodling with Ivan
Desny.
>
>
>
>




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22046


From: hotlove666
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:18pm
Subject: OT: If I were a burglar
 
If I were, I'd make a list of a_film_by members' addresses and
hit 'em all on Saturday night - they'd all be at the movies!
Actually, I'm off to Passe ton bac d'abord (Pialat) at UCLA myself.
22047


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:47pm
Subject: Re: OT: If I were a burglar
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> If I were, I'd make a list of a_film_by members' addresses and
> hit 'em all on Saturday night - they'd all be at the movies!
> Actually, I'm off to Passe ton bac d'abord (Pialat) at UCLA myself.

I never go to a movie on Saturday night, Bill. That's why I never
get burglarized.

So how did you like the Pialat? Not his best, but not bad, as far
as I can remember.

My two favorites: "Nous ne vieillirons pas ensemble" and "La
Gueule ouverte". Neither seen recently though.
22048


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:48am
Subject: Re: Second Languages (Was Cameron's Next?)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:


"Experiments in that direction have failed. And my written French
isn't as good as your written English. I've had more occasion to
speak it."

Of listening, speaking, reading and writing, writng is the hardest
master for the second language speaker according to standard studies
of language acquisition. If you were raised to be bi-lingual, it's
another matter. Then again, some people are apparently endowed with
the ability to master a second language with relative ease. Judging
by J-P's eloquence in English I'd say he falls into that category;
the rest of us have to struggle.

Richard
22049


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:17am
Subject: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:

>
> So how did you like the Pialat? Not his best, but not bad, as far
> as I can remember.

That kind of on-camera improvisation is not my cup of tea - I find it
false and irritating. I'm skipping "We won't grow old" tomorrow,
despite your recommendation, but I will try again with L'Enfance nu
and La geule ouverte (which you like) on Wednesday. I know Pialat is
the staff of life to many here, but to me he's poison. I'll get
caught up on my work this week so as to have time for the WONDERFUL
PREMINGER SERIES that starts at UCLA in February.

I'm always quoting Biette, so here's another one: "Watching Van Gogh,
I was never once able to accept that Dutronc was anyone but Dutronc."
Me three.
22050


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26am
Subject: Clint's Next Oscar
 
Clint got the DGA best director nod. By my reckoning, it's an easy
stroll for him from here to the stage of wherever-they-have-it-now to
pick up his statue.
22051


From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:09am
Subject: The situation of Danish film
 
As I've said many times before, Denmark is a third world country in
regards to film. It is a country where films like "Bridget Jones'
Diary" is considered Arthouse and where cineplex' dominate.

How much cineplex' dominate can be read out of how much American films
contribute to the revenue of cinemas in Denmark. Roughly speaking 15
films out of an average of 100 films shown each year (American top 10,
Danish top 5) represent 60% of the box office revenue. The two next
most shown and seen countries are United Kingdom (5-10% of the films
shown, aprx 0,5 to 1% of BO) and France (6-10% of the films shown,
aprx 0,1 to 0,5% of the BO). Other countries are represented by 1-2
films a year.

The situation for cinema has changed drastically over the last 20
years because of home cinema, in form of first VHS, but took a drastic
turn in the 90s thanks to DVD. Many films, which 20 years ago would
have been released theatrically, are now only released on DVD, and the
average run for a big film has been reduced from 10 weeks to aprx 4
weeks (in average).

To counter this, ticket prices has over the last 20 years increased by
300%, where the price index only has increased by 38% in same period,
and concession prices have likewise rocketed: In 83 a back of popcorn
was aprx $1, today its $8 (in Denmark), corrected for currency
differences its aprx a 400% increase. So where one could go to the
cinema, watch a film and have his soda / popcorn for aprx Dkr 40 in
83, the price today is Dkr 120.

However, the countermeasure for cinema survival has to be compared to
the cost of a DVD. Thus, two people going to the cinema with soda and
popcorn is about the same as buying the film on DVD and having soda
and popcorn aswell. This suggests, that to attract people to the
cinema, the cinemas has to offer only the biggest successes and only
for a short period of time, as on one side, only a limited amount of
people go the cinema, and the DVD is around the corner.

While cinema no longer is the main revenue of American studios, the
paradigm for American studios is to launch a film in as many screens
as possible, then after a few weeks, prepare the DVD release. In
average, a DVD is released 5 months after its premiere (4-6 months
depending on various factors).

The single biggest problem for Danish cinema in terms of presenting
itself is money. In average a Danish production is $1 to $2 million,
and the biggest productions have a marketing budget of about $1
million for Denmark alone. This alone means, that only the 1-3
biggests hits make a profit at the cinema, while the rest have to hope
to make it on DVD (sale / rental). This also means, that only 1-2
Danish films a year have a backing to be shown internationally, and
while Danish films is highly respected at Locarno and San Sebastian,
the only festival they surface at is Berlin. As such, Danish film is
for danes only.

This has two consequences. The first is, that our most talented
directors stagnate in development of their skill. They have no
problems getting their films fonded in Denmark, as they are household
names, so there is no real risc involved here. Secondly, their films
rarely gets in competition with other foreign films. As such, the
technical skills of the director never is challenged by the constantly
developing international language of film, and their stories remain
good enough.

Thus, originality and international attention is based on luck. Two of
our biggest names, Thomas Vinterberg and Susanne Bier, both
internationally acclaimed with "Festen" and "Italiensk for Begyndere",
never managed to follow up on their succes.

The situation even is worsend by the fact, that unless you have
Zentropa backing you up, your films almost never get international
attention. Thus one of our finest and most original auteurs, Nicholas
Winding Refn, remains unknown to the international film community.

The need for domestic succes thus causes Danish film to stagnate
creativily and thus to isolate itself from the surrounding world. And
as the Danish audience in general is dumb and ignorent of cinema, one
cannot dare to take riscs by attempting to follow how cinema
internationally changes. Only one Danish director can, and thats Lars
von Trier.

I will assume that the situation in Denmark in large terms represent
the situation for other European countries. Even at festivals, I don't
see many German, French, Italian, Spanish or British films. At best
one or two.

Henrik
22052


From:
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:28pm
Subject: Re: The situation of Danish film
 
In a message dated 05-01-30 04:10:32 EST, Henrik writes:

<< Thus, originality and international attention is based on luck. Two of
our biggest names, Thomas Vinterberg and Susanne Bier, both
internationally acclaimed with "Festen" and "Italiensk for Begyndere",
never managed to follow up on their success. >>

"Italiensk for Begyndere / Italian for Beginners" was a big hit here in
Detroit, Michigan, USA and played for weeks at the art-house down the street from
me. But we have never been allowed to see any other films by the same director.
What makes the situation worse is that DVDs of Danish films rarely show up in
local video stores.

Mike Grost
22053


From: thebradstevens
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:29am
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
> Auteur rhymes with Tourneur. it's always fun to hear Bob Osborne
> pronounce that name on TCM. (it's also fun to hear the French
> pronounce some American names, especially Boetticher and Scorsese,
> which you probably wouldn't recognize).

When I sampled the commentary track on the GANGS OF NEW YORK DVD, I
was surprised to hear Martin Scorsese pronouncing his name as 'score-
sess-ee'. I heard Robbie Robertson pronounce it that way in the
MOVIES ARE MY LIFE documentary, but everyone else seems to pronounce
it as 'score-say-see', or sometimes 'score-see-say'.

But does anyone know how to pronounce Frank Borzage?
22054


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:27am
Subject: Re: Clint's Next Oscar
 
Marty skunked AGAIN?

SHIIIIIIITTTTT!!!!!!!

--- hotlove666 wrote:

>
> Clint got the DGA best director nod. By my
> reckoning, it's an easy
> stroll for him from here to the stage of
> wherever-they-have-it-now to
> pick up his statue.
>
>
>
>




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22055


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:46am
Subject: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> >
> > So how did you like the Pialat? Not his best, but not bad, as
far
> > as I can remember.
>
> That kind of on-camera improvisation is not my cup of tea - I find
it
> false and irritating. I'm skipping "We won't grow old" tomorrow,
> despite your recommendation, but I will try again with L'Enfance
nu
> and La geule ouverte (which you like) on Wednesday. I know Pialat
is
> the staff of life to many here, but to me he's poison. I'll get
> caught up on my work this week so as to have time for the

WONDERFUL
> PREMINGER SERIES that starts at UCLA in February.
>
> I'm always quoting Biette, so here's another one: "Watching Van
Gogh,
> I was never once able to accept that Dutronc was anyone but
Dutronc."
> Me three.

Well, I don't share thr widespread admiration for "Van Gogh" and
I agree about Dutronc, but PLEASE do yourself a favor and don't
skip "Nous ne vieillirons pas ensemble." It's really a terrific
movie (in my memory of seeing it only once some 20 years ago).
22056


From:
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:52am
Subject: Re: Clint's Next Oscar
 
The Academy has an obsession for giving Best Director awards to
actors-turned-directors. Vide Robert Redford, Mel Gibson, Clint Eastwood. It seems just
ridiculous. IMHO, Eastwood is just a hack, without one-tenth of the talent
Scorsese has in one of his toes. But then, Martin Scorsese is not a Movie Star, a
fact that seems all-important to Academy voters.
Many critics also seem mesmerized by actors-turned-directors. Maybe it is
just easier to remember a director's name, if they are a famous performer.

Mike Grost
22057


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:01am
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
>
> But does anyone know how to pronounce Frank Borzage?

In the States I've always heard it pronounced in three syllables:
Bor-za (long "a")-ge (as in the first syllable of "guitar".) The
French pronounce it in two syllables: Borz-age (to rhyme
with "corsage").

The French pronounce Boetticher "Beau-ti-cher (like in "Cher" the
singer/actress, or "chair," the French word for "flesh"; sometimes,
to sound more American, the "cher" part is pronounced "tcher" (like
the English "chair"). I've heard various prononciations
of "Scorsese" that are quite different from any American
prononciation. And to many American ears, the way French people
pronounce Howard Hawks makes his name sound like "Doakes."

JPC
22058


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:02am
Subject: Re: Re: Clint's Next Oscar
 
However today's L.A. Times notes:

"But the DGA hasn't been quite the bellwether it once
was. Since 2001, just two of the four DGA award
winners went on to win the Oscar: Ron Howard for
2001's "A Beautiful Mind" and Peter Jackson for 2003's
"The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King"

--- MG4273@a... wrote:

> The Academy has an obsession for giving Best
> Director awards to
> actors-turned-directors. Vide Robert Redford, Mel
> Gibson, Clint Eastwood. It seems just
> ridiculous. IMHO, Eastwood is just a hack, without
> one-tenth of the talent
> Scorsese has in one of his toes. But then, Martin
> Scorsese is not a Movie Star, a
> fact that seems all-important to Academy voters.
> Many critics also seem mesmerized by
> actors-turned-directors. Maybe it is
> just easier to remember a director's name, if they
> are a famous performer.
>
> Mike Grost
>


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22059


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:36am
Subject: Re: Clint's Next Oscar
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Marty skunked AGAIN?
>
> SHIIIIIIITTTTT!!!!!!!

Well, they could give Marty Best Director ( would be a rare case
of a sensible choice) and Clint Best Picture (which would also make
sense) and everybody would be happy -- except Mike (no, Mike,
Eastwood is not a hack).
JPC


>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
22060


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:04am
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> The French pronounce Boetticher "Beau-ti-cher (like in "Cher" the
> singer/actress, or "chair," the French word for "flesh";
sometimes,
> to sound more American, the "cher" part is pronounced "tcher" (like
> the English "chair"). I've heard various prononciations
> of "Scorsese" that are quite different from any American
> prononciation. And to many American ears, the way French people
> pronounce Howard Hawks makes his name sound like "Doakes."


Let's not forget "Cassavetes" pronounced to rhyme with "castanets."
22061


From: Sam Adams
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:12am
Subject: Re: The situation of Danish film
 
FYI, ITALIAN... was directed by Lone Schirfig, whose followup, WILBUR WANTS TO KILL
HIMSELF was recently released on DVD by Sundance (who took the liberty of printing
everything but "Wilbur" in tiny type, presumably so the title doesn't offend anyone).
While we're speaking of Danes, Kristian Levring's followup to THE KING IS ALIVE is also just
out; THE INTENDED, on New Video. Neither got much of a US release.

Sam

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-01-30 04:10:32 EST, Henrik writes:
>
> << Thus, originality and international attention is based on luck. Two of
> our biggest names, Thomas Vinterberg and Susanne Bier, both
> internationally acclaimed with "Festen" and "Italiensk for Begyndere",
> never managed to follow up on their success. >>
>
> "Italiensk for Begyndere / Italian for Beginners" was a big hit here in
> Detroit, Michigan, USA and played for weeks at the art-house down the street from
> me. But we have never been allowed to see any other films by the same director.
> What makes the situation worse is that DVDs of Danish films rarely show up in
> local video stores.
>
> Mike Grost
22062


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:47am
Subject: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-01-30 04:10:32 EST, Henrik writes:
>
> << Thus, originality and international attention is based on luck.

The key is festivals. As Olivier Assayas has pointed out, currently
hot Asian directors like Wong Kar-Wai are not making money in their
own countries. Quentin Tarantino saw Chungking Express when Marco
Muller showed it at Locarno and sponsored a release by Miramax in the
states.

Again according to Olivier (in CdC's hors-serie Made in China), Hong
Kong commercial cinema was already losing its place as "capital of an
invisible empire, the Chinatowns of the whole world" when he and
Charles did the CdC HK issue in 1982. In this regard, he adds, WKW's
situation is no different from that of Hou Hsiao-Hsen, Nanni Moretti,
Aki Kurismaki, Atom Egoyan or (he might have added) Lars von
Trier, "isolated filmmakers giving news of their cities. These
filmmakers know the geography of contemporary cinema well and are
legitimated more by international than by local recognition."

I'm not sure what the situation in S. Korea is, but I suspect that
Sang-Soo Hong has rich relatives, or he wouldn't be making the
uncompromising films I have seen by him so far. And he'd better start
getting the kind of notice he deserves outside of France or he won't
be able to keep it up, unless his father owns Samsung. On the other
hand, Another Public Enemy will be shooting this year, suggesting
that Public Enemy was a hit locally, with little international
recognition.

Watching the deterioration of Fruit Chan since his wonderful Durian
Durian, which I saw at Venice, I suspect that he DOESN'T have rich
relatives and is obliged to do simplistic work to stay afloat. If the
prize had gone to him instead of to The Circle, maybe he'd have made
more films like Durian Durian, but there was only one prize to give,
both were excellent films and Samira Mahkmalbaf (sp?) was making her
presence strongly felt on the jury. The window of opportunity is that
small.

For the record, there are much better filmmakers than Nanni Moretti
in Italy, but they can't even get films made, and there must be
better filmmakers in Finland than Aki Kurismaki - Mika, for example! -
but they don't know "the geography of contemporary cinema" (=the
modernist conventions currently in fashion) as well as the wildly
overrated AK, so I don't even know their names.

Lars von Trier is obviously representing Denmark on the world
festival stage at the moment, and the much-decried Dogma movement was
a way of publicizing other Danish filmmakers AND getting the films
made on the cheap, opening the possibility for more than one Dane at
least potentially to break out. A smart producer and a good
filmmaker, IMO, who is taking his responsibility as Mr. Denmark
seriously, and inventing his own version of modern cinema rather than
copying what's "in."

This also means that critics who go to festivals have heavier
responsibilities than ever: to see everything and to avoid cant,
fashion and cronyism as much as is humanly possible so as to help the
filmmakers who really deserve their help, and desperately need it.
22063


From: Fred Camper
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:14pm
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>But does anyone know how to pronounce Frank Borzage?

There's good evidence that it was pronounced Bor-ZAY-ghee, as JPC has
it; apparently that's how he pronounced it.

"Boetticher" is "Bett-eh-ker," approximately.

Fred Camper
22064


From: Dave Garrett
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:18pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
> wrote:

> > But does anyone know how to pronounce Frank Borzage?
>
> In the States I've always heard it pronounced in three syllables:
> Bor-za (long "a")-ge (as in the first syllable of "guitar".) The
> French pronounce it in two syllables: Borz-age (to rhyme
> with "corsage").

Bor-zay-gee (hard "g") is correct, insofar as that's the way it was pronounced by those who worked with him.

Dave
22065


From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:30pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
BTW, How shall I pronounce Irene Dunne?? I have always been puzzled
by that one. And I know for sure I'm mistaken (the "Dunne" part).
22066


From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:59pm
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
I fully agree. Festivals are the key. Not only does it allow directors
to compete their skill and language against the contemporary
international language, but it also allows critics to see their work.

The funny thing is, that while we are speaking, Susanne Bier just
recieved the audience award at Sundance for "Brothers", which for
those interested is available on DVD from Denmark in a superb edition:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews8/brothers.htm

Returning to subject...

But film should not be either arthouse / festival or blockbusters.
While Danish film to some degree has had luck at Locarno and San
Sebastian, and Sundance, its not films which recieve limited release
in other countries.

Some time ago Tom Tuckwar said, that the biggest error of German film
was, that German film tried to imitate American cinema. But when
having to chose between a big Hollywood production and a German
production, made for the fragtion of the cost, what would you chose,
he asked rhetorically. Tuckwar suggested, that only by making films,
which were national, as in embraced the national mentality, something
unique could be made.

And looking at films by Kiarostami and Makmahlbaf, by Bier and
Kaurismaki, by Hou and War, one sees what he means. Just take one of
last years best films, the turkish "Uzak".

Bill very correctly points out, that the sitation requires, that
critics who go to festivals have heavier responsibilities than ever.

But is this healthy for the development of film?

Henrik
22067


From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:09pm
Subject: Dan gets a rave review
 
Our Dan Sallitt's ALL THE SHIPS AT SEA, previously championed by Bill
Krohn and others, gets a rave review in the current weekly VARIETY by
Scott Foundas: "...arrives like a gust of crisp sea air....highly
impressive...follows the tradition of Dreyer, Bergman and Bresson,
and is distinguished by two exceptional lead performances and an
unusually rigorous aesthetic."

I'd link to the review, but VARIETY requires a paid online subscription.
--

- Joe Kaufman
22068


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:13pm
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
turkish "Uzak".
>
> Bill very correctly points out, that the sitation requires, that
> critics who go to festivals have heavier responsibilities than
ever.
>
> But is this healthy for the development of film?

You mean is it good for the future of our national cinemas to be in
the hands of people KNOWN for cronyism, fashion-following and
kneejerk politics? No, it isn't. But all film lovers - including the
small number of influential critics who don't fit that description at
all - have to keep the pressure on the pack to earn their free lunch
by assiduously promoting merit.

That's one thing a group like this can do by ruthlessly separating
the wheat from the chaff as it comes down the slide from the circuit,
and vigorously beating the drums for the wheat, online and off. The
alternative is letting a handful of programmers and critics decide
what we see, and what talents live or die.

That's why I am always available to friends who program festivals to
seek out and recommend films, even if only 1 in 10 of my
recommendations ends up on the circuit. And I'm sure others here do
that all the time. But this discussion sparked by Henrik also serves
to focus attention on how important that filtering process has -
sadly - become. And hopefully to take the stigma off being
a "director for festivals." Right now there are basically two kinds
of directors working: directors for festivals and directors who make
money for producers and distributors where they make their movies. If
anyone reading this sees a 3d way, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Let me also praise again the work of video outlets like Cinefile who
cast their net wide. I told Lurking Marvin about Hong, and the only
video store he could find in BERKELEY that had any Korean films in
stock had just one - some epic with a lot of swordplay. I was
shocked. Apparently we have it better than I knew in LA, but it
shouldn't be like that.

In the meantime, as many members have both indicated, the Net plus a
sense of adventure can take you far. You don't have to wait for the
tastemakers to tell you what to watch, any more than you did in the
days when H'wd was making a hundred good films a year and the
tastemakers were writing about De Sica.
22069


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:22pm
Subject: Pialat (Was: Dan gets a rave review)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Kaufman wrote:
> Our Dan Sallitt's ALL THE SHIPS AT SEA, previously championed by
Bill
> Krohn and others, gets a rave review in the current weekly VARIETY
by
> Scott Foundas:

Our Dan will also be quoted in the Bruin in an article on the Pialat
retro at UCLA. Since I've been knocking Pialat, I feel I can and
should give at least part of what he said for publication here, since
little of what any of us said will make it into print:

"In all his films he tries to generate a great deal of contradictory
material on his characters, playing with improvisation and drawing on
biographical and autobiographical material. He then assembles this
material in an imbalanced way, with big chunks of time removed from
the story, and the characters' contradictions emphasized rather than
explained. What he sacrifices in drama, he makes up in a powerful
sense of immediacy.

"Of the many things that intrigue me about his work, one is the way
he uses biographical material. One gets the sense that he doesn't
trust screenwriters, including himself, to come up with material that
is lifelike enough to make a good movie. So he often started from
his own life experiences, or those of his collaborators, just to have
material random and erratic enough to satisfy him."


Back to Bill: I hope that - since Dan doesn't have access to the Net
right now - this balances my skeptical response to Passe ton bac.
22070


From:
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:22am
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Dan...
 
In a message dated 05-01-30 14:01:14 EST, Henrik writes:

<< Some time ago Tom Tuckwar said, that the biggest error of German film was,
that German film tried to imitate American cinema. But when having to chose
between a big Hollywood production and a German production, made for the
fragtion of the cost, what would you chose, he asked rhetorically. Tuckwar
suggested, that only by making films, which were national, as in embraced the national
mentality, something unique could be made.

And looking at films by Kiarostami and Makmahlbaf, by Bier and Kaurismaki,
by Hou and War, one sees what he means. Just take one of last years best films,
the Turkish "Uzak". >>

Another possibility for World Cinema: to really upgrade quality, in all
departments.
Storytelling is really the pits in many Hollywood films today. A subtitled
film that was brilliantly plotted might also have some staying power in the
world market. Many Hollywood films are all violence and special effects. A film
that had a really absorbing story might be an impressive change of pace. Here in
the US "Primer" (Shane Carruth) was a really welcome change of pace - a
strongly imaginative science fiction film.

on Uzak / Distant. This was my choice for Best Cinematography last year (by
its writer-director-photographer, Nuri Bilge Ceylan). Its landscapes of the
Istanbul area are superb. But the film is weakened by its near total lack of
plot. It is another minimalist mood piece in which almost nothing happens, in the
over-worked currently fashionable mode.
This may sound heretical, but: after seeing it, had the wish that the
director could find a Turkish mystery writer who could could plot as well as Agatha
Christie, and make a mystery film with the wonderful atmosphere and visuals of
Uzak - but with a really strong mystery plot.

Mike Grost
22071


From: samfilms2003
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:39pm
Subject: VARIETY (was Re: Dan gets a rave review)
 
> I'd link to the review, but VARIETY requires a paid online subscription.

I signed up for 2 week trial subscription to online Variety, just to read
a review of an Andrew Noren film ! (I was afraid I was hallucinating ;-)

This was a moth ago, after the pleas for me to sign up for X$ / year
which I ingnored I'm still getting it...

My experience with trade pubs in print at least is, it's harder to end a
free subscription than it is to get one !

-Sam
22072


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:47pm
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Dan...
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:


> on Uzak / Distant. This was my choice for Best Cinematography last
year (by
> its writer-director-photographer, Nuri Bilge Ceylan). Its
landscapes of the
> Istanbul area are superb. But the film is weakened by its near
total lack of
> plot. It is another minimalist mood piece in which almost nothing
happens, in the
> over-worked currently fashionable mode.
> This may sound heretical, but: after seeing it, had the wish that
the
> director could find a Turkish mystery writer who could could plot
as well as Agatha
> Christie, and make a mystery film with the wonderful atmosphere and
visuals of
> Uzak - but with a really strong mystery plot.

Mike: Pascal Bonitzer (Encore, Little Cuts, Rien sur Robert) is
developing 3 scripts, one based on a Christie novel.
22073


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:49pm
Subject: VARIETY (was Re: Dan gets a rave review)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
>
> > I'd link to the review, but VARIETY requires a paid online
subscription.
>
> I signed up for 2 week trial subscription to online Variety, just
to read
> a review of an Andrew Noren film ! (I was afraid I was
hallucinating ;-)
>
> This was a moth ago, after the pleas for me to sign up for X$ / year
> which I ingnored I'm still getting it...
>
> My experience with trade pubs in print at least is, it's harder to
end a
> free subscription than it is to get one !
>
> -Sam

I'm still getting the headlines and first lines of the big stories
for free. No problem!
22074


From:
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 0:28pm
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
In a message dated 05-01-30 13:33:02 EST, Maxime writes:

<< How shall I pronounce Irene Dunne?? I have always been puzzled by that
one. >>

Dunne is pronounced just like the English words "dun" and "done". It rhymes
with "sun" and "fun". It is one syllable.
Irene is pronounced eye-REEN. (Long I and long E, as they say.)

Here on the Border, we get Canadian Radio (CBC). The highly professional
announcers research name pronounciation till they drop. Both classical music
figures, and people in the news. Listening to the broadcasts is a real education,
in learning how to say names.
The announcers have been known to lament on the air, that there is still no
good, reliable, single source, for learning the right ways to pronounce a name.
They have to scramble through a multitude of sources.
Unfortunately, the CBC only rarely covers films, other than Canadian ones. I
can pronounce Atom Egoyan, just fine now. But how does one say Andrzej Wajda?
Or Hou Hsiao-Hsien? I have no idea.

Mike Grost
whose name rhymes with Frost
22075


From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:47pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>But how does one say Andrzej Wajda?
> Or Hou Hsiao-Hsien? I have no idea.

In France (where we may be wrong...) we simply skip the "h" and say
something like

oo - see how - see en(d)
22076


From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:29pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
> Dunne is pronounced just like the English words "dun" and "done". It rhymes
> with "sun" and "fun".

Or, same as French "donne" (rhymes with "bonne")...


> But how does one say Andrzej Wajda?
> Or Hou Hsiao-Hsien?

VY (rhymes with Why)-da, no? But I'll pass on Andrzej.

First dozen or so times I heard the latter pronounced, rapidly and, I'm sure, authoritatively -- as Ho Show (as in shower) Shen -- I was incapable of

relating it to the name I'd seen in print, and had no idea what was being said...
22077


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:55pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
> > But how does one say Andrzej Wajda?
> > Or Hou Hsiao-Hsien?
>
> VY (rhymes with Why)-da, no? But I'll pass on Andrzej.
>
> First dozen or so times I heard the latter pronounced, rapidly
and, I'm sure, authoritatively -- as Ho Show (as in shower) Shen --
I was incapable of relating it to the name I'd seen in print, and
had no idea what was being said...

Those Asiatic directors probably don't recognize their names when
pronounced by westerners. Conversely I wonder how French or English
names sound when pronounced by Asiatics.


I must confess I find all those three-barreled Korean names
confusing and all similar-sounding. I wax nostalgic about those good
all easy anglo-saxon or gallic names: Ford, Walsh, Fuller, Hawks,
Renoir, Clair, Cocteau, Resnais, Bresson...
22078


From: Charles Leary
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:09pm
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
On Jan 30, 2005, at 6:29 AM, thebradstevens wrote:

> When I sampled the commentary track on the GANGS OF NEW YORK DVD, I
> was surprised to hear Martin Scorsese pronouncing his name as 'score-
> sess-ee'.

That's how David Letterman pronounces it too. During one show, out of
the blue (Scorsese wasn't a guest), someone remarked how sharp Dave's
blazer was, and he said something like, "yeah I should wear this and go
downtown, and hang out with Marty Scorsese." He made a point of
carefully enunciating Scorsese's name, with gestures, as well. It was
pretty funny, although I don't really know what he was talking about.

Charley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22079


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:42pm
Subject: Letterman on Scorsese (was something else)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Charles Leary wrote:
>

> That's how David Letterman pronounces it too. During one show, out
of
> the blue (Scorsese wasn't a guest), someone remarked how sharp
Dave's
> blazer was, and he said something like, "yeah I should wear this
and go
> downtown, and hang out with Marty Scorsese." He made a point of
> carefully enunciating Scorsese's name, with gestures, as well. It
was
> pretty funny, although I don't really know what he was talking
about.
>
> Charley
>
"enunciating MS's name, with gestures" was pretty funny? I must
be missing something, probably the visuals.

But of course every word those late-night talk show guys utter is
greeted with roars of laughter from the audience (quite often they
even laugh before the punch line -- I guess they're so grateful they
got in.) JPC
22080


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:50pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>

>
> Those Asiatic directors probably don't recognize their names when
> pronounced by westerners. Conversely I wonder how French or English
> names sound when pronounced by Asiatics.

I doubt if Dreyer would either, after hearing it pronounced by the
guy who does the excellent commentary on the Michael DVD.

BTW, am I wrong saying Sang-Soo Hong instead of Hong Sang-Soo? I was
corrected very obnoxiously on that one last night, but I have been
assuming that Hong is his last name. Tell my I'm right, someone.
22081


From: Craig Keller
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:18pm
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
>
> BTW, am I wrong saying Sang-Soo Hong instead of Hong Sang-Soo? I was
> corrected very obnoxiously on that one last night, but I have been
> assuming that Hong is his last name. Tell my I'm right, someone.

You're right.

How did Dreyer's name get pronounced on the 'Michael' DVD? Was this
the UK Masters of Cinema one?

craig.
22082


From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:32pm
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
> I doubt if Dreyer would either, after hearing it pronounced by the
> guy who does the excellent commentary on the Michael DVD.
> BTW, am I wrong saying Sang-Soo Hong instead of Hong Sang-Soo? I was
> corrected very obnoxiously on that one last night, but I have been
> assuming that Hong is his last name. Tell my I'm right, someone.

You're right, but in fact only the IMDB lists chinese and korean names with
prename first and family name last. Unless we get reaccustumed to write and
speak Yimou Zhang, Kaige Chen, Kar-wai Wong, Ming-liang Tsai, Hsiao-hsien
Hou, Kwon-Taek Im, Cheh Chang, Kar-leung Lau or Ki-Duk Kim, for the sake of
coherence it's better to remain with Hong Sang-Soo.
Oh, and official festival selection for the IMDB is "Nomination", like "The
Motorcycle Diaries" was "nominated" for the Palme d'or at Cannes.
22083


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:42pm
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> >
> > BTW, am I wrong saying Sang-Soo Hong instead of Hong Sang-Soo? I
was
> > corrected very obnoxiously on that one last night, but I have been
> > assuming that Hong is his last name. Tell my I'm right, someone.
>
> You're right.
>
> How did Dreyer's name get pronounced on the 'Michael' DVD? Was
this
> the UK Masters of Cinema one?
>
> craig.

More like droo-yer - Henrik can improve on that, I'm sure.
22084


From: hotlove666
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:52pm
Subject: Three Extremes [Was: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee)]
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:

> You're right, but in fact only the IMDB lists chinese and korean
names with
> prename first and family name last.

Shit!

By the way, Dumplings, the good but not great Fruit Chan that Joseph
K and I both rented at Cinefile, is really part of Three Extremes, a
pan-Asiatic horror trilogy directed by Fruit Chan, Park Chen-Wook
(the recent Cannes winner) and Takashi Miike, (presumably) all shot
by Christopher Doyle. Anyone see all of it? The other segments, per
the imdb, are called Cut and Box.
22085


From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:26pm
Subject: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier" wrote:
> You're right, but in fact only the IMDB lists chinese and korean
names with
> prename first and family name last. Unless we get reaccustumed to
write and
> speak Yimou Zhang, Kaige Chen, Kar-wai Wong, Ming-liang Tsai,
Hsiao-hsien
> Hou, Kwon-Taek Im, Cheh Chang, Kar-leung Lau or Ki-Duk Kim, for the
sake of
> coherence it's better to remain with Hong Sang-Soo.

It seems that, in general, the same person/institution will use the
"family--given" order in some cases (those mentioned above) but use
the "given--family" order in others (e.g., Kenji Mizoguchi, Yasujiru
Ozu, Akira Kurosawa). Is this just a generational thing where people
are now more aware of the proper order for the names of younger
filmmakers, while the improper order used in the older literature is
perpetuated out of habit?

-Jason

--
Jason Guthartz
http://www.restructures.net/chicago/film.htm
--
"Mind your wants 'cause someone wants your mind."
--George Clinton, "Funkentelechy"
22086


From: Noel Vera
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:52pm
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"

> wrote:
> turkish "Uzak".
> >
> > Bill very correctly points out, that the sitation requires, that
> > critics who go to festivals have heavier responsibilities than
> ever.
> >
> > But is this healthy for the development of film?
>
> You mean is it good for the future of our national cinemas to be
in
> the hands of people KNOWN for cronyism, fashion-following and
> kneejerk politics? No, it isn't.

It's the way things are. For years I was annoyed with how Toronto
would program its Filipino films--really bad melodramas that Sirk
wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Then I heard the rumor that one
of the programmers was being treated by one of the producers (whose
son's films used to get an annual screening) to a bevy of boys.
Can't prove it, can't say his name, but that story left a bad taste
in my mouth.

Which is why I thought it was an act of outrageous courage when
Mario O'Hara inserted a line of dialogue in his film, Babae sa
Bubungang Lata (Woman on a Tin Roof, 1998--hey, the producer decided
on that title) where a man was looking for a filmmaker at his house
and the boy there answered that he wasn't there, he was in Toronto;
apparently Filipino films are big in the festival because of the gay
porn content.

Bubungang Lata, incidentally, is O'Hara's tribute to Philippine
cinema. Or tribute and condemnation, both of the best and worst of
that cinema--shot in ten days, for around $50,000 (the poverty-row
look was I thought just perfect--as if the desperate, barely-
surviving people before the camera had stepped behind it to make the
picture). Just me speaking, but I'd rank it over Truffaut's Day for
Night as one of the best films on films ever made.

Footnote: when that same programmer showed up in Manila to view
O'Hara's movie, I waited to see what his reaction was. Nada--he was
politely non-committal. But the film didn't go to Toronto; instead,
Tony Rayns (god bless him, even if half of world cinema's
establishment--okay, maybe eighty percent--hate his guts) chose it
for Vancouver.
22087


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Guthartz" wrote:

"It seems that, in general, the same person/institution will use
the'family--given' order in some cases (those mentioned above) but use
the 'given--family' order in others (e.g., Kenji Mizoguchi, Yasujiru
Ozu, Akira Kurosawa). Is this just a generational thing where people
are now more aware of the proper order for the names of younger
filmmakers, while the improper order used in the older literature is
perpetuated out of habit?"

East Asian (China, Korea, Japan) names are surname first folloed by
the given name. Chinese and Korean names have always been given in
the proper order (ever read or hear Tse-Tung Mao or Il-Sung Kim?) but
because Japan was occupied by the US for 7 years Japanese names were
reversed by the Occupation authorities in official documents and hand-
outs to journalists, and by and large that order has been kept by
Western reporters and US government personnel. Most Western
academics keep the correct order, as do Western expats living in
Japan (I keep that name order because of prior residence there; I'm
used to it.)

Richard
22088


From: Matt Teichman
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:07am
Subject: Re: Asian DVDs; Multiregion Players
 
Has anyone mentioned "sensasian" for DVDs? (www.sensasian.com)
Fabulous prices.

-Matt



Richard Porton wrote:

>I am finishing up a little Cineaste Editorial on the reception of Asian cinema in the U.S. and
>would like to recommend a few web sites where Asian DVDs can be purchased.
>(particularly if readers have access to multiregion players.)
>
>
22089


From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:57am
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:

> Bubungang Lata, incidentally, is O'Hara's tribute to Philippine
> cinema. Or tribute and condemnation, both of the best and worst of
> that cinema--shot in ten days, for around $50,000 (the poverty-row
> look was I thought just perfect--as if the desperate, barely-
> surviving people before the camera had stepped behind it to make
the
> picture). Just me speaking, but I'd rank it over Truffaut's Day for
> Night as one of the best films on films ever made.

That's a strong recommendation. Noted. In general, do you feel that
festival programmers are doing a good job? Festival critics? I don't
go to enough to generalize.
22090


From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:02am
Subject: Re: The situation of world cinema
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"

Speaking of fests, Rotterdam just cancelled one Theo van Gogh film (a
short) and showed the other (the feature he was finishing when he was
murdered). Unclear why the distinction. The reasons cited for
cancelling the short were "security":

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050130/ap_en_mo/netherlands_van_gogh
22091


From: Fernando Verissimo
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:22am
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
 
From: "hotlove666"

>>there must be
better filmmakers in Finland than Aki Kurismaki - Mika, for example!


Mika is living in Brazil for quite some time now.

As a matter of fact, he made a film here called, err, I LIVE IN BRAZIL.

fv

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22092


From: Kristian Andersen
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:48am
Subject: Dennis Hopper
 
Has anyone seen The American Dreamer (HYPERLINK
"http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177516/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx
0dD1vbnxwbj0wfHE9dGhlIGFtZXJpY2FuIGRyZWFtZXJ8aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u;fc=1;ft=20;fm=
1"http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0177516/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMH
x0dD1vbnxwbj0wfHE9dGhlIGFtZXJpY2FuIGRyZWFtZXJ8aHRtbD0xfG5tPW9u;fc=1;ft=20;fm
=1). The doc about Dennis Hopper? Anyone know if its released anywhere, Im
dying to see it. Hopper is the greatest hack in art, next to Schnabel (I
love those guys).


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.5 - Release Date: 26/01/2005



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22093


From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:17am
Subject: Re: Dennis Hopper
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kristian Andersen"
wrote:
> Has anyone seen The American Dreamer

It can be ordered from:

http://www.superhappyfun.com/content.htm
22094


From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:24am
Subject: Hsiao me the money (waRe: How does one pronounce "a...
 
"First dozen or so times I heard the latter pronounced, rapidly and,
I'm sure, authoritatively -- as Ho Show (as in shower) Shen -- I was
incapable of relating it to the name I'd seen in print, and had no
idea what was being said..."

I'd always understood that the correct pronunciation was 'who show
shen'.
22095


From:
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:05am
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
The commercial exigencies of the film industry seem to make hash of
any hard and fast rules -- take, for example, Zhang Yimou's (surname
first) frequent collaborations with Gong Li (surname last) and Zhang
Ziyi (surname first, until she recently announced she was "changing"
her name to Ziyi Zhang.) I saw one article two weeks ago that
referred to "Zhang Yimou and Ziyi Zhang" back to back, which could
have only increased the confusion by throwing in a "(no relation)".
And then there's an actor like "Maggie Cheung Man-Yuk", who use what
I take to be Chinese/English portmanteau credits on her
Chinese-language movies, but Western naming conventions on a movie
like CLEAN. Sticking with screen credits seems to be the least
controversial route, though you still end up with confusion; though
most writers seem to treat Apichatpong Weerasethakul as if his name
were written in Western fashion, an article in the most recent Film
Comment second-references him as "Apichatpong" on several occasions.
(I thought his friends call him Joe.) Seems like the whole issue is
likely to be lost in transliteration.

Sam
22096


From:
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:07am
Subject: Re: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
 
The one controversial pronunciation I know for sure? Steve Buscemi's
last name is pronounced with a soft "s" -- "Boo-sem-ee." That's how
he says it, although I've hear directors he's worked with pronounce
it otherwise.

Now I just need help with Fatih Akin.

Sam
22097


From: acquarello2000
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:32am
Subject: Re: Three Extremes [Was: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee)]
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> By the way, Dumplings, the good but not great Fruit Chan that
Joseph
> K and I both rented at Cinefile, is really part of Three Extremes,
a
> pan-Asiatic horror trilogy directed by Fruit Chan, Park Chen-Wook
> (the recent Cannes winner) and Takashi Miike, (presumably) all shot
> by Christopher Doyle. Anyone see all of it? The other segments, per
> the imdb, are called Cut and Box.

The feature length of DUMPLINGS is definitely my preferred version asa
well. The heavily edited version for THREE EXTREMES doesn't do it
justice at all. In addition to DUMPLINGS, I also liked Park's
contribution CUT, which follows in a similar "what would do if you
were thrown into the same situation?" vein as SYMPATHY FOR MR.
VENGEANCE and OLDBOY. Miike's BOX didn't do much for me, although a
couple of people at Sundance seem to think it's the best installment
of the bunch (although I suspect that this was partly from not having
seen the feature length cut of DUMPLINGS). BOX is more subdued than
typical Miike and typically atmospheric, but is also more fractured
(than usual) in the way he interweaves flashbacks and dreams.

acquarello
22098


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
--- samadams@e... wrote:

> most writers seem to treat Apichatpong Weerasethakul
> as if his name
> were written in Western fashion, an article in the
> most recent Film
> Comment second-references him as "Apichatpong" on
> several occasions.
> (I thought his friends call him Joe.) Seems like the
> whole issue is
> likely to be lost in transliteration.
>

At a recent screening of "Tropical malady" here in
L.A., Marcus Hu introduced me to him saying "David --
this is Joe."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
22099


From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:31am
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:

> The commercial exigencies of the film industry seem to make hash of
> any hard and fast rules

When writing anything, I try to introduce Asian names with the family
name in all capital letters -- e.g. ZHANG Yimou, HONG Sang-soo,
Yasujiro OZU. I note that Japanese films with bilingual credits often
seem to do this.

MEK
22100


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:39am
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, samadams@e... wrote:

"The commercial exigencies of the film industry seem to make hash of
any hard and fast rules -- take, for example, Zhang Yimou's (surname
first) frequent collaborations with Gong Li (surname last) and Zhang
Ziyi (surname first, until she recently announced she was "changing"
her name to Ziyi Zhang.)"

I have some Japanese reading ability, and the the kanji for names and
a several nouns are the same as in Chinese. Based on reading the
Chinese credits for her films, Gong appears to be her surname and Li
her given name. Maybe list member Kevin Lee can clarify this point
definitvely.

Richard

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