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22101
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:43am
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> Based on reading the
> Chinese credits for her films, Gong appears to be her surname and Li
> her given name. Maybe list member Kevin Lee can clarify this point
> definitvely.
Kevin already answered this question for me in the past. ;~}
Although "Li" is often a family name, it is NOT one in the case of
GONG Li. Her family name is GONG.
MEK
22102
From: iangjohnston
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:10am
Subject: Re: Asian name order (was: He shoots, he scores)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- samadams@e... wrote:
>
> > most writers seem to treat Apichatpong Weerasethakul
> > as if his name
> > were written in Western fashion, an article in the
> > most recent Film
> > Comment second-references him as "Apichatpong" on
> > several occasions.
> > (I thought his friends call him Joe.) Seems like the
> > whole issue is
> > likely to be lost in transliteration.
> >
>
> At a recent screening of "Tropical malady" here in
> L.A., Marcus Hu introduced me to him saying "David --
> this is Joe."
>
This is a real can of worms...
The order of names in Thai is the same as in English - family name
last. So Film Comment got it right.
For that matter, we should also be talking of Tarr Bela and Jancso
Miklos. Hungarian is another language that puts the family name
first.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
22103
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
> Well, I don't share thr widespread admiration for "Van Gogh" and
> I agree about Dutronc, but PLEASE do yourself a favor and don't
> skip "Nous ne vieillirons pas ensemble." It's really a terrific
> movie (in my memory of seeing it only once some 20 years ago).
Maybe I'm too late, but you might want to try NOUS NE VIEILLERONS PAS
ENSEMBLE even if you didn't enjoy PASSE TON BAC - I like the latter, but
it strikes me as a minor work, and I heard that opinion from a lot of
others when the Pialat retro passed through NYC.
My favorites are A NOS AMOURS, L'ENFANCE NUE, NOUS NE VIEILERONS PAS
ENSEMBLE, LA GUEULE OUVERTE, and POLICE. Everyone but myself thinks that
POLICE is a minor work, but the other four are a pretty solid basis for
judgment, I'd say. - Dan
22104
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:43pm
Subject: April Criterions
Double-disc editions of both:
-'Divorce Italian Style' by Pietro Germi
and............
-'F for Fake' by O.W.
-- which will be in 1.66:1 original aspect ratio with a new restored
high-definition anamorphic transfer, and will include an essay by
a_f_b's own Jonathan Rosenbaum, video introduction by Peter
Bogdanovich, commentary from Oja Kodar and Gary Graver, 'Almost True'
(1992 Norwegian Film Institute documentary on Elmyr de Hory), and, last
but not least.... the 'F for Fake' trailer, and 'Orson Welles: One-Man
Band'!!!
craig.
22105
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> My favorites are A NOS AMOURS, L'ENFANCE NUE, NOUS NE VIEILERONS
PAS
> ENSEMBLE, LA GUEULE OUVERTE, and POLICE. Everyone but myself
thinks that
> POLICE is a minor work, but the other four are a pretty solid basis
for
> judgment, I'd say. - Dan
Thanks, Dan. I'm seeing two of your favorites Wednesday. But I should
add that the strong antipathy I felt Saturday was largely inspired by
reseeing the last 30 minutes of A Nos Amours. I'd actually like to
see Passe ton bac again, now that I know a bit about how it was made
(= the two shoots).
One convention in Pialat that really rubs me the wrong way: the fight
scenes, where people confront, yell, slap, punch: the dinner in A nos
amours, where you can see Pialat trying to provoke the actress, the
scene w. Haudepin and her mom in Pase to nbac. They feel so
contrived. Whereas the sequence where the writer goes bats at the
waitress and then everyone, eventually striking another writer who
criticizes him, in The Day the Pig Fell in the Wlll, seem natural and
opaque at the same time.
If I eventually reconcile with Pialat, it will have to be as someone
who makes films about people acting, as opposed to someone who makes
films about people. Taking a tip from Oudart, I will be more prepared
for the fact that his way of shooting and editing negates meaning.
That's not exactly commonplace!
22106
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Three Extremes [Was: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee)]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "acquarello2000"
wrote:
Cut and Box.
>
> The feature length of DUMPLINGS is definitely my preferred version
asa
> well. The heavily edited version for THREE EXTREMES doesn't do it
> justice at all. In addition to DUMPLINGS, I also liked Park's
> contribution CUT, which follows in a similar "what would do if you
> were thrown into the same situation?" vein as SYMPATHY FOR MR.
> VENGEANCE and OLDBOY. Miike's BOX didn't do much for me, although a
> couple of people at Sundance seem to think it's the best installment
> of the bunch (although I suspect that this was partly from not
having
> seen the feature length cut of DUMPLINGS).
So it was shown at Sundance last year? Sounds like something that
should be released theatrically, although judging from your comment,
it might do an injustice to Dumplings. I wish Durian Durian would get
shown here. It's really a stunner.
22107
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:11pm
Subject: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
>.
>
> If I eventually reconcile with Pialat, it will have to be as
someone
> who makes films about people acting, as opposed to someone who
makes
> films about people.
All films are about people acting. I'm sure you've heard of
something called "effet de reel."
I agree with Dan's Pialat selection, including POLICE (if that's
minor, then it's the major of the minors!) And I'm sorry for you
that you skipped "Nous ne vieillirons pas..." which I wish I could
see again. JPC
22108
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
On Monday, January 31, 2005, at 02:11 PM, jpcoursodon wrote:
> I agree with Dan's Pialat selection, including POLICE (if that's
> minor, then it's the major of the minors!) And I'm sorry for you
> that you skipped "Nous ne vieillirons pas..." which I wish I could
> see again. JPC
I saw 'Nous ne vieillirons pas ensemble' last year or the year before
at the Alliance française in New York, in a pristine (restored?) print.
(I'm assuming they used the same print for the Lincoln Center
retrospective, which I wasn't able to attend.) I agree that it's a
masterpiece -- although I didn't realize it until about four days
afterward. To this day I'm not even sure how to talk about it -- to
call it "a series of brutal farewells" seems too much, and yet not
enough.
craig.
22109
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:41pm
Subject: Re: April Criterions
This is fabulous news. "F For Fake" has been much in
my thoughts lately vis-a-vis journalism in general,
Welles' career (I am now prepared to say it's his best
completed film) and Francois Reichenbach (vis-a-vis my
obsession with "Those Who Love Me Can Take the Train")
Just got ahold of the test pressing of Criterion's "My
Own Private Idaho." Quite good. Haven't had a look at
it in years and I'm happy to report it's better than
ever.
--- Craig Keller wrote:
> -'F for Fake' by O.W.
>
> -- which will be in 1.66:1 original aspect ratio
> with a new restored
> high-definition anamorphic transfer, and will
> include an essay by
> a_f_b's own Jonathan Rosenbaum, video introduction
> by Peter
> Bogdanovich, commentary from Oja Kodar and Gary
> Graver, 'Almost True'
> (1992 Norwegian Film Institute documentary on Elmyr
> de Hory), and, last
> but not least.... the 'F for Fake' trailer, and
> 'Orson Welles: One-Man
> Band'!!!
>
> craig.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
22110
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
> One convention in Pialat that really rubs me the wrong way: the fight
> scenes, where people confront, yell, slap, punch: the dinner in A nos
> amours, where you can see Pialat trying to provoke the actress
Don't forget the actors!
There's definitely a lot of hitting in Pialat (mostly of women by men),
especially in A NOS AMOURS. (It's even more of a ritual in Jacques Becker
films: of the ones I've seen (all but the Arsene Lupin film and L'OR DU
CRISTOBAL), a man hits a woman in every one but ALI BABA, unless I miss my
count. It's not as violent as in Pialat, but on the other hand it's a bit
more recreational. Pialat is drawn to violence, but doesn't make it
comfortable.)
> If I eventually reconcile with Pialat, it will have to be as someone
> who makes films about people acting, as opposed to someone who makes
> films about people.
That's actually how I feel about Cassavetes - and I'm bothered because I
don't think that's how the films are built to work.
To my mind, Pialat isn't really interested in acting in a "meta" sense.
The improv is just a tool for him, I believe, one of his desperate
attempts to get something raw enough to meet his unusual standards. My
guess is you won't be able to hoe that road - but keep us posted. - Dan
22111
From:
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:47am
Subject: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
In a message dated 05-01-31 16:23:41 EST, Dan Sallitt writes:
<< It's even more of a ritual in Jacques Becker films: of the ones I've seen
(all but the Arsene Lupin film and L'OR DU CRISTOBAL), a man hits a woman in
every one but ALI BABA, unless I miss my count. >>
This sort of thing is a real turn-off for me. It ruined "Grisby" (Becker),
and also "Le Doulos" (Melville) and "Lilliom" (Fritz Lang). I find it hard to
eiether enjoy or recommend to other people films which contain men hitting women.
I do not recall anything like this in "Le Trou" (Becker).
Mike Grost
22112
From: Travis Miles
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:55pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's next
NY Post Page Six
"For this viewer, the most terrifically moving sight encountered during the
premiere screening of BATTLE ANGEL ALITA was the sight of Shinya Tsukamoto
quietly weeping at the back of the auditorium. Also spotted, Johnnie To,
fast asleep, Olivier Assayas, furiously taking notes, and Otomo Katsuhiro,
engaged in an altercation with the usher. Supporting actor Brian Cox was the
talk of the evening, as he positively radiated delight after hearing of his
nomination for this year's Ernest Thesiger award."
22113
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:08pm
Subject: Re: Pialat (Was:: OT: If I were a burglar)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-01-31 16:23:41 EST, Dan Sallitt writes:
>
> << It's even more of a ritual in Jacques Becker films: of the ones
I've seen
> (all but the Arsene Lupin film and L'OR DU CRISTOBAL), a man hits
a woman in
> every one but ALI BABA, unless I miss my count. >>
>
> This sort of thing is a real turn-off for me. It ruined "Grisby"
(Becker),
> and also "Le Doulos" (Melville) and "Lilliom" (Fritz Lang). I find
it hard to
> eiether enjoy or recommend to other people films which contain men
hitting women.
> I do not recall anything like this in "Le Trou" (Becker).
>
> Mike Grost
It's not just Becker. "Man slapping a woman's face hard" used to
be a cliche in countless movies -- as ritualistic and predictable as
the passionate kiss or the western shootout. French cinema was
particularly fond of this ritual, especially in gangster films. It
was taken for granted that criminals and tough guys in general (and
especially pimps) beat their women up regularly, and also that the
women usually enjoyed it, or at least didn't mind, being slapped
around and beaten up being part of their fate as females. Things,
needless to say, have changed.
"Le Trou" had an all-male cast, so no girl could be slapped.
JPC
22114
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:09pm
Subject: Re: Cameron's next
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Travis Miles wrote:
> NY Post Page Six
Supporting actor Brian Cox was the
> talk of the evening, as he positively radiated delight after hearing of his
> nomination for this year's Ernest Thesiger award."
His legend grows. I already gave him the George (Buck) Flower Award for
The Ringer, which also isn't out yet.
22115
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Three Extremes [Was: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee)]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "acquarello2000"
> wrote:
> Cut and Box.
> >
> > The feature length of DUMPLINGS is definitely my preferred
version
> asa
> > well. The heavily edited version for THREE EXTREMES doesn't do
it
> > justice at all.
The full version of DUMPLINGS is much better, especially in
developing character, giving more time to the usually underrated
Tony Leung Ka-fai (often neglected in favor of Tony L Chiu-wai), and
certainly presenting a grotesque picture of the tiger economy
economic miracle very similar to that great Vietnam novella THE
GENERAL'S RETIREMENT.
Also, Leung Ka-fai is doing some great character roles these days
especially in A-1 (no relation to that Spielburp atrocity!) by
supporting Anthony Wong and other young Cantonese stars.
Tony Williams
22116
From: Noel Vera
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:44pm
Subject: Re: The situation of world vcinema (Was: The situation of Danish film)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
> wrote:
>
> > Bubungang Lata, incidentally, is O'Hara's tribute to Philippine
> > cinema. Or tribute and condemnation, both of the best and worst
of
> > that cinema--shot in ten days, for around $50,000 (the poverty-
row
> > look was I thought just perfect--as if the desperate, barely-
> > surviving people before the camera had stepped behind it to make
> the
> > picture). Just me speaking, but I'd rank it over Truffaut's Day
for
> > Night as one of the best films on films ever made.
>
> That's a strong recommendation. Noted. In general, do you feel
that
> festival programmers are doing a good job? Festival critics? I
don't
> go to enough to generalize.
I'm no veteran either (I'm surprised you're not), but I like my
experiences in Hong Kong and Singapore, and I hear good things about
Pusan--at least, they're open-minded enough to accept even the most
obscure Southeast Asian film, and savvy programmers from Vancouver,
Rotterdam and Karolvy Vary follow their lead. You want the next big
thing in Asia, they are a good bet.
22117
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:21am
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> This is fabulous news. "F For Fake" has been much in
> my thoughts lately vis-a-vis journalism in general,
> Welles' career (I am now prepared to say it's his best
> completed film).
*****
It's a labyrinthine matter, admittedly, but I'd be interested to know
what you (or anyone else here) would consider Welles' best
*un*completed work?
I only ask because I'm still reeling from my first viewing of the "Don
Quixote" footage a week ago.
Tom Sutpen
22118
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:27am
Subject: Public Toilet
I've stopped worrying about Fruit Chan. Just before the good but
conventional Dumplings he made this jaw-dropping visionary epic,
filmed on video in Pusan, Hong Kong, Beijing, along the Great Wall,
in Rome and in New York, filled with signs and wonders beyond
Hollywood's dim imaginings.
22119
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 1:54am
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> > This is fabulous news. "F For Fake" has been much in
> > my thoughts lately vis-a-vis journalism in general,
> > Welles' career (I am now prepared to say it's his best
> > completed film).
>
> *****
> It's a labyrinthine matter, admittedly, but I'd be interested to
know
> what you (or anyone else here) would consider Welles' best
> *un*completed work?
>
> I only ask because I'm still reeling from my first viewing of
the "Don
> Quixote" footage a week ago.
>
I've seen a rough-cut of The Deep that is just crying to be finished
and shown to audiences; Quixote could be magnificent, although it
can't really be finished in the usual sense of the word; Gary's
mistake in circulating a version of Other Side that he edited himself
has temporarily sunk the rep of that film, but that's like judging
the Quixote material by Jess Franco's compilation (which I assume is
what you've seen, Tom); and visually the bits I've seen of Merchant
of Venice are very strong, striking out in a whole new direction with
the filming of Shakespeare.
I'd chuck them all to have the Ambersons rough cut that never came
back from Brazil, but as that looks more and more improbable - Ruy,
don't you know ANYONE who can pick up the trail in Rio? - my next
wish is to see The Other Side of the Wind properly finished. It would
also be nice if the b&w Carnaval rough cut Dick Wilson sent to Oscar
Dancigers were sitting in an unmarked box the Mexican Cinematheque,
but given their incendiary recent history and the fact that the curse
was put squarely on that segment of It's All True, I don't have much
hopes of that. Lastly, based on Pierre Rissient's information, Moby
Dick Rehearsed might yet surprise us all.
But more money is being spent PER DAY to save Bush's face in Iraq
than has gone into the totality of all efforts to assemble and
preserve Welles' errant work since he died, and no one is even
LOOKING for Carnaval, Ambersons or Moby Dick. No one.
I was happy to hear from Stefan Droessler that we may see a better
Arkadin before long, however.
22120
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:29am
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> I've seen a rough-cut of The Deep that is just crying to be finished
> and shown to audiences.
*****
Forgive what might seem on its face a stupid question, Bill, but why
hasn't it been?
I mean, specifically.
>Quixote could be magnificent, although it
> can't really be finished in the usual sense of the word; Gary's
> mistake in circulating a version of Other Side that he edited himself
> has temporarily sunk the rep of that film, but that's like judging
> the Quixote material by Jess Franco's compilation (which I assume is
> what you've seen, Tom)
*****
Yes. It was indeed the Jess Franco assembly. But at least I knew the
reputation this version enjoyed (if that's the word) before seeing it
for the first time. So I had the advantage of more or less resigning
myself to drinking in the images and keeping in mind that this was
quite probably *not* the form Orson Welles ever intended for this
material. On that disconnected, narrow basis, Welles' footage had a
greater effect on me than it might have if I'd played along and
accepted the film as any kind of finished work; which its presentation
at the very least implies.
> But more money is being spent PER DAY to save Bush's face in Iraq
> than has gone into the totality of all efforts to assemble and
> preserve Welles' errant work since he died, and no one is even
> LOOKING for Carnaval, Ambersons or Moby Dick. No one.
*****
Another (deceptively) stupid question: What do you think, offhand, are
the chances of a *reasonably* complete "Ambersons" existing somewhere
(and I don't mean just kicking around Brazil)?
Slim? None? Greater than we might imagine?
Tom Sutpen
22121
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 5:46am
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
"no one is even LOOKING for Carnaval, Ambersons or Moby Dick. No one."
When I interviewed Christopher Lee, he told me that he had been
searching for the MOBY DICK footage. This was confirmed by Jonathan
Rosenbaum, who told me that Lee had phoned him asking if he had any
information about what had happened to the film.
There was a letter published in SIGHT AND SOUND many years ago (I
think just after Welles' death) from someone who worked for the
television company that financed MOBY DICK. If I recall correctly, he
said that the footage had been sent out of the country for Welles to
edit, but was stopped by customs officials because certain export
fees had not been paid. The reels may still be in the customs sheds.
22122
From: Nick Wrigley
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 7:35am
Subject: Re: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
> There was a letter published in SIGHT AND SOUND many years ago (I
> think just after Welles' death) from someone who worked for the
> television company that financed MOBY DICK. If I recall correctly, he
> said that the footage had been sent out of the country for Welles to
> edit, but was stopped by customs officials because certain export
> fees had not been paid. The reels may still be in the customs sheds.
Anybody know which TV company?
There's nothing at imdb.
-Nick>-
22123
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:51am
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
I had the advantage of more or less resigning
> myself to drinking in the images and keeping in mind that this was
> quite probably *not* the form Orson Welles ever intended for this
> material.
Strike "probably." It's travesty - some of the footage was shot for
another project..
What do you think, offhand, are
> the chances of a *reasonably* complete "Ambersons" existing
somewhere
> (and I don't mean just kicking around Brazil)?
Zero if you eliminate Brazil, IMO. The film was never released in any
form but what we have now. The rough-cut with all the material edited
under Welles' supervision went to Brazil and never came back, but the
chances of it surviving there without being carefully stored are
pretty low. On the other hand, It's All True was supposed to be
sitting at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. There is a list of all
the various prints made at the time in the MA production files at
UCLA Arts Special Collections if someone wants to take it and start
looking....
22124
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:56am
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> There was a letter published in SIGHT AND SOUND many years ago (I
> think just after Welles' death) from someone who worked for the
> television company that financed MOBY DICK. If I recall correctly,
he
> said that the footage had been sent out of the country for Welles
to
> edit, but was stopped by customs officials because certain export
> fees had not been paid. The reels may still be in the customs sheds.
If you don't have a copy of the letter, which was originally sent to
Jonathan, I have one. I sent it to Dan O'Herlihy, too - he had
expressed interest to a friend when he was shooting Sphere. Speaking
to someone in the producer's employ who saw some of it, Pierre
Rissient was told that it was stunning - major Welles.
22125
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 10:57am
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick Wrigley wrote:
> > There was a letter published in SIGHT AND SOUND many years ago (I
> > think just after Welles' death) from someone who worked for the
> > television company that financed MOBY DICK. If I recall
correctly, he
> > said that the footage had been sent out of the country for
Welles to
> > edit, but was stopped by customs officials because certain export
> > fees had not been paid. The reels may still be in the customs
sheds.
>
> Anybody know which TV company?
> There's nothing at imdb.
>
> -Nick>-
Nick, I'll dig out the letter if you want to pursue it. There are a
few details you might find helpful.
22126
From: Nick Wrigley
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:14am
Subject: Re: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
> Nick, I'll dig out the letter if you want to pursue it. There are a
> few details you might find helpful.
That'd be great, thanks. I'll spread the word and try and initiate some
deep searches.
-Nick>-
22127
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:53am
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
>The rough-cut with all the material edited
> under Welles' supervision went to Brazil and never came back,
>but the
> chances of it surviving there without being carefully stored are
> pretty low.
Yes. All the proof that you need is in a document by Carlos
Roberto de Souza titled: "Incofidencia Archiveira: Nitrate Fires in
Brazilian Film History". Though Souza doesn't discuss the
Ambersons case specifically, if we believe the film was where it
was in the '40s in Brazil then there is almost no fucking way.
If it survived after RKO's orders to destroy it, then it would have
had to survive Paulo Emilio's cinematheque fire in the '50s
(which also destroyed all the documents that listed their
holdings) and then the Cinedia floods in the '70s, which
destroyed 80% of their archive.
22128
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 0:26pm
Subject: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
>
> >The rough-cut with all the material edited
> > under Welles' supervision went to Brazil and never came back,
> >but the
> > chances of it surviving there without being carefully stored are
> > pretty low.
>
> Yes. All the proof that you need is in a document by Carlos
> Roberto de Souza titled: "Incofidencia Archiveira: Nitrate Fires in
> Brazilian Film History". Though Souza doesn't discuss the
> Ambersons case specifically, if we believe the film was where it
> was in the '40s in Brazil then there is almost no fucking way.
>
> If it survived after RKO's orders to destroy it, then it would have
> had to survive Paulo Emilio's cinematheque fire in the '50s
> (which also destroyed all the documents that listed their
> holdings)
The guy who actually went down there looking did speak to someone who
saw Amberson cans in some cinematheque in the 50s - possibly the one
that burned: I don't know. I have to dig that note out too. Apart
from that unconfirmed sighting, I am reasonably sure Ademar Gonzaga
wouldn't have destroyed it when RKO told him to - his confirming memo
back to them is very probably a white lie. After that...
22129
From: Travis Miles
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 0:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Three Extremes [Was: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee)]
I hugely enjoyed his iconic appearance as an aging Judo master in
(ever-growing in positive critical consensus) Johnnie To's THROWDOWN.
>
> Also, Leung Ka-fai is doing some great character roles these days
> especially in A-1 (no relation to that Spielburp atrocity!) by
> supporting Anthony Wong and other young Cantonese stars.
>
22130
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 8:25pm
Subject: Ambersons cans in Brazil
Bill and Gabe,
Nearly all of the Cinedia documents were burnt in the Cinemateca fires in
1957. But the journals of Adhemar Gonzaga from 1942 were kept. Hernani
Heffner, who's a researcher and worker for Cinedia, says Gonzaga would
describe meticulously in his diary if a nail fell on the floor, but there's
not any acknowledgment of having received any film cans from RKO. Doesn't
prove a thing, but shows that it is VERY UNLIKELY that a rough cut of The
Magnificent Ambersons has reach Cinedia any time. And, given the actual lack
of any documents acknowledging the materials' arrival on Brazil (on customs
houses, on film archives), it is unlikely that a rough cut has even landed
here.
Considering the hipothesis that the rough cut arrived, it ptobably did not
at Cinedia, but at Copacabana Palace, where Welles and, it seems, the RKO
crew was staying, and then the Welles-hater delegate producer of RKO might
have gotten rid of it. Or maybe the mailman intercepted it, bought himself a
movie house and screened it to himself till the film fell apart. Or maybe he
hid it in a cave, and someone a Welles lover will find it.
It is more likely that George W Bush turns into a muslim than finding a
rough copy of The Magnificent Ambersons in a brazilian film archive. It's
definitely not on Cinedia, definitely not on Cinemateca Brasileira. And
Bill, you're right: Gonzaga, had he received the rough cut, could have sent
that memo, but lying... He would never destroy it.
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:26 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
>
22131
From: filipefurtado
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
> saw Amberson cans in some cinematheque in the 50s - possibly the one
> that burned: I don't know. I have to dig that note out too. Apart
> from that unconfirmed sighting, I am reasonably sure Ademar Gonzaga
> wouldn't have destroyed it when RKO told him to - his confirming memo
> back to them is very probably a white lie. After that...
I wouldn't be that sure. Given his positions of what sort of image of Brazil Brazilian Cinema should make, Gonzaga was certainly among the people who wasn't
very happy with what Welles was doing in It's All True (on the other hand he was a filmmaker who probably admire Welles and could identify with his
difficulties).
As for the issue of Brazilian film preservation, it is a sad story (we had a whole issue of Contracampo about that). Till Paulo Emilio Salles Gomes come back
from France in 54 there wasn't much in a way of effort on the subject, and just after his return the São Paulo Cinemateque caght fire. The number of
important films made betwen 1920 and 1949 that are lost is very high, so the odds that Ambersons was drestoyed is big (to give an example Humberto Mauro -
usually regard as Brazil's first great filmmaker - made over 300 educative shorts for a govern institute between 37 and 64, of those only 80 survived). The
Fire was in the São Paulo Cinemateque and Welles stayed in Rio where they had the MAM cinemateque, the National Archive, the Cinedia (Gonzaga's studio)
archive, the Brasil Vita Filmes archive (which walso caught fire), the were no reasons for the negatives beto be in São Paulo when the Cinemateque caught
fire. In the positive side, the São Paulo cinemateque is a mess (ans from what I heard so is the one they have in Rio) and people who works there is so busy
trying to do what they can for the brazilian stuff that nobody pays attention to the foreign copies they have.
Filipe
__________________________________________________________________________
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22132
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 8:53pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
> Bill and Gabe,
> Nearly all of the Cinedia documents were burnt in the Cinemateca
fires in
> 1957. But the journals of Adhemar Gonzaga from 1942 were kept.
To back-track a bit: Wise has confirmed that the rough cut was sent
to Welles in Rio and never came back; the RKO order to trash it
(noted by Carringer before the records were sealed by Turner) was
addressed to Gonzaga; and a memo came back from Gonzaga: "Ambersons
trashed per your order." So the print got there, and he at least
implied in that memo had his hands on it at some point. Its presence
in Rio - whether at Cinedia (where there were editing rooms) or RKO
headquarters or the hotel or Welles' private apartment nearby -
explains the amazingly detailed cables Welles was sending Jack Moss
about how to re-edit the film, which Moss, according to Cy Enfield,
was tossing in the wastebasket.
Quite apart from the no doubt illusory hope of finding the print,
what else does the Gonzaga diary say about the making of It's All
True?!!! I asked Alicia on my visit to the present-day studios what
records remained and she stonewalled me, fed me one of the worst
lunches I ever ate and gave me a fascinating clipping: a published
article by Ademar "proving" that Chaplin murdered the British comic
from whom he stole the Tramp character. This was in line with
something Alicia told me: that Ademar had named all the streets at
the original studio (now a factory, I gather) after people forgotten
by film history.
All the more reason to think that if he really had the work print,
he'd have hung onto it. I'll see if I can find that last fax about
the cans that were seen somewhere, just in case.
22133
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
wrote:
, the Brasil Vita Filmes archive (which walso caught fire), the were
no reasons for the negatives beto be in São Paulo when the
Cinemateque caught fire. In the positive side, the São Paulo
cinemateque is a mess (ans from what I heard so is the one they have
in Rio) and people who works there is so busy trying to do what they
can for the brazilian stuff that nobody pays attention to the foreign
copies they have.
>
> Filipe
>
Thanks, Filipe. I'll copy you as well on the last report I got about
the mysterious cans, if I can find it. They may have been at the Sao
Paolo archives, but I need to refresh my memory. Of course Rogerio
went through those archives with a microscope assembling Welles
newsreel footage and paid out of his own pocket to preserve it for
use in Nem Tudo. That's where we were able to access it for the
documentary. I can't imagine HE would've overlooked it, but as
Michael Cimino says, "Assumptions are the mother of fuckups."
22134
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
We can use the yahoogroups chat if you like.
> To back-track a bit: (1) Wise has confirmed that the rough cut was sent
> to Welles in Rio and never came back; (2) the RKO order to trash it
> (noted by Carringer before the records were sealed by Turner) was
> addressed to Gonzaga; (3) and a memo came back from Gonzaga: "Ambersons
> trashed per your order." So the print got there, and he at least
> implied in that memo had his hands on it at some point.
Are 2 and 3 documents or heard-of stuff? By 1 and the memo on the Lilly
Archives in Indiana that first started the Ambersons in Rio whole deal, it's
pretty sure that RKO wanted to send the rough cut to Rio. Having only heard
of the Lilly Library memo, Hernani thinks RKO had intended to send the cans,
but never really did it. Again, more than one researcher has searched for
the customs papers in Rio and nothing appeared. Could it ever be sent to
Fortaleza?
Its presence
> in Rio - whether at Cinedia (where there were editing rooms) or RKO
> headquarters or the hotel or Welles' private apartment nearby -
> explains the amazingly detailed cables Welles was sending Jack Moss
> about how to re-edit the film, which Moss, according to Cy Enfield,
> was tossing in the wastebasket.
I'm with you on this one.
> Quite apart from the no doubt illusory hope of finding the print,
> what else does the Gonzaga diary say about the making of It's All
> True?!!!
I've never read it. Hernani did. So did Lecio Augusto Ramos, a researcher
who studied and researched A LOT to do a book on Welles in Rio but never
actually did. And that illusory hope is not completely illusory till it's
proved the print was actually burnt. I still hope -- who doesn't?
> I asked Alicia on my visit to the present-day studios what
> records remained and she stonewalled me, fed me one of the worst
> lunches I ever ate and gave me a fascinating clipping: a published
> article by Ademar "proving" that Chaplin murdered the British comic
> from whom he stole the Tramp character. This was in line with
> something Alicia told me: that Ademar had named all the streets at
> the original studio (now a factory, I gather) after people forgotten
> by film history.
Alice is a tough one. But Hernani is her main man. Everything you have to
ask her, ask him and he'll get for you.
> All the more reason to think that if he really had the work print,
> he'd have hung onto it. I'll see if I can find that last fax about
> the cans that were seen somewhere, just in case.
I make any efforts to have this whole matter cleared
22135
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 9:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
When Gonzaga moved to Sao Paulo, he carried all his archives (film & paper)
with him and delivered them to the Cinemateca. If Gonzaga had his hands on
the rough cut of TMA, didn't burn it and kept it with him, it had to go to
Sao Paulo too. He came back to Rio in the 60s but he only got the Cinemateca
to return his materials to Rio (and not all of it) in the 70s.
But today every reel in the Cinemateca and in Cinedia is databased. Maybe
databased wrong, but it would take sheer stupidity to mistake it for
anything else or to read the label and database the reels for the label.
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:00 AM
Subject: Re:[a_film_by] Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "filipefurtado"
wrote:
, the Brasil Vita Filmes archive (which walso caught fire), the were
no reasons for the negatives beto be in São Paulo when the
Cinemateque caught fire. In the positive side, the São Paulo
cinemateque is a mess (ans from what I heard so is the one they have
in Rio) and people who works there is so busy trying to do what they
can for the brazilian stuff that nobody pays attention to the foreign
copies they have.
>
> Filipe
>
22136
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
I visited the Sao Paulo archives and was overwhelmed. Ruy or
Filipe, have you ever been there? Most of their non-nitrate stuff is
kept under good archival conditions (climatized). The nitrate --
forget about it. Not only is it a mess but there is no climatization.
Magnificent Ambersons might be in there but if it is it's probably
shiny red and silver dust.
My friend Patricia, an archivist who studied at George Eastman
House (and who was restoring Joquim Pedro de Andrade's
films last time I talked to her), is paid on a per project basis; so
she's never been full-time, and apparently, neither are most of
her colleagues, which means for the amount of work needed
and the amount of people they have, it could be *another* sixty
years till someone sees the cans.
Hey, don't you guys realize that just talking about this we are
risking certain death?
Gabe
22137
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:30pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
>
> Are 2 and 3 documents or heard-of stuff?
They're documents that have been reduced to the state of hearsay by
Turner's puting everything under lock and key in a snit after legal
papers were used to stop him colorizing Kane. Carringer saw them
before the lockup and based his statement in the book that all prints
were destroyed on seeing them.
> Alice is a tough one. But Hernani is her main man. Everything you
have to
> ask her, ask him and he'll get for you.
She introduced us that day, I think. It was in 1986.
>
>
> I make any efforts to have this whole matter cleared
I just have to retrieve that fax summing up the researcher's efforts.
He was a young guy - Josh Greenberg - who heard about my speculations
and called me and grilled me and took the ball and ran with it. He
spoke to Carringer (about the memoes) and Wise re: the print going
but not coming back), and he made at least one trip to Rio, hooking
up with Rogerio to make his inquiries. I believe the guy who wrote
all this up in Vanity Faitr also spoke to him, but didn't get the
part about the cans having been spotted at SOME point. Maybe Josh
held that back, but I have it in his last fax to me.
The workprint went first to Florida, where Welles and Wise worked on
it some more for 3 days before Welles actually flew to Brazil. Wise
had gotten a passport and was supposed to follow, but couldn't
because of wartime space restrictions - Richard Wilson considered
this a broken promise on RKO's part. I don't recall whether the print
left with Welles or was shipped later by Wise. It could have
travelled down as part of Welles' luggage, I guess.
22138
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:36pm
Subject: Re: Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
> When Gonzaga moved to Sao Paulo, he carried all his archives (film
& paper)
> with him and delivered them to the Cinemateca. If Gonzaga had his
hands on
> the rough cut of TMA, didn't burn it and kept it with him, it had
to go to
> Sao Paulo too. He came back to Rio in the 60s but he only got the
Cinemateca
> to return his materials to Rio (and not all of it) in the 70s.
> But today every reel in the Cinemateca and in Cinedia is databased.
Maybe
> databased wrong, but it would take sheer stupidity to mistake it for
> anything else or to read the label and database the reels for the
label.
Thanks, Ruy, that's useful to know. I had heard from Catherine
Benamou that Gonzaga's film collecytion was splut between several
archives.
Mislabelling: The Big Red One was never really a lost film, but I had
to track it down in 1994 anyway when Joel Silver told me he'd checked
w. Warners post-production and they informed him the negative was
lost. I made two calls and Leith Adams went down to Pacific Title and
confirmed that the 3 of the 90 boxes of "postive trims" - selcted at
random - all contained negative. Four Men on a Raft was in cans
labelled "All Is True - Bonito" - otherwise it would have been
destroyed on orders from Paramount's legal dept., who were fearful of
potential litigation arising from the fact that anything Welles
personally directed would have, under the terms of the RKO contract,
a "clouded title." The Angel of Death passed over because the cans
were...mislabelled.
22139
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2005 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
>
> Hey, don't you guys realize that just talking about this we are
> risking certain death?
>
> Gabe
I'm deeply aware of it, Gabe.
Gabe's description of the jaw-dropping realities of the Sao Paolo
archives just confirms ever single experience I have had in the world
of lost, found, restored and destroyed films. In decreeing that the
workprint of MA that went to Brazil had been destroyed because he'd
seen a memo on RKO stationery that said it was, Carringer was being
Cartesian about a non-Cartesian country and about a man - Gonzaga -
whose eccentric mentality he knew nothing about.
When I told Scorsese how Fountain of Youth happened to be preserved -
Sandy Delaney, the Paramount para-legal who found IAT while looking
for a backup print of FOY, had been mother-henning it for years
because it reminded her of her Desilu days, the happiest days of her
life - he said, "So much for the science of film preservation!"
A small example of what Gabe's talking about - when IAT was finally
turned over to UCLA for safe-keeping, they waited until months after
Welles' death to even open the cans and look inside, because they
were busy preserving things like a color, Spanish-language Stooges
short and didn't have time. When they did look, they found one piece
of color footage - I assume printed - and sent it to the AFI in
Washington, who lost it.
The stories are endless, particularly if you talk to serious
archivists, like my buddy D. John Turner in Canada, a man whose
excess of rationality in a profession that is congenitally challenged
in that regard threatens to send him over the edge every day of his
life. The truth is, proximity to celluloid makes the human animal,
already a poor excuse for a rational being, totally insane.
22140
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:54am
Subject: What's Happening ?
I just read a breathless mention in a 1964 Susan Sontag article about a
Maysles' documentary on The Beatles, called WHAT'S HAPPENING (no question
mark). She says: "There is more vitality and art" in it "than in all
American story films made this year". I have never encountered it (or even
heard of it), can anyone on the list bear witness?
Adrian
22141
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:03am
Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> I just read a breathless mention in a 1964 Susan Sontag article about a
> Maysles' documentary on The Beatles, called WHAT'S HAPPENING (no
question
> mark). She says: "There is more vitality and art" in it "than in all
> American story films made this year". I have never encountered it
(or even
> heard of it), can anyone on the list bear witness?
>
> Adrian
Wow, talk about synchronicity. I read that exact same article today --
"Going to the Theatre, etc."
I've not seen "What's Happening!" myself, but the Maysles Films Inc.
site has a page devoted to it here:
http://www.mayslesfilms.com/film_whatshappeing.html
22142
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:06am
Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 03:54 AM, Adrian Martin wrote:
> I just read a breathless mention in a 1964 Susan Sontag article about a
> Maysles' documentary on The Beatles, called WHAT'S HAPPENING (no
> question
> mark). She says: "There is more vitality and art" in it "than in all
> American story films made this year". I have never encountered it (or
> even
> heard of it), can anyone on the list bear witness?
>
> Adrian
If I'm not mistaken, this is the film frequently referred to as 'The
Beatles' First U.S. Visit' / 'The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit.' It's
out on DVD here --
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00018D2X8/
qid=1107331010/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl74/102-0900034-
4988138?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846
It's quite good -- the boys are captured at their most infectiously
ebullient and charismatic -- energized not just by the realization
they're on the cusp of conquering America, but also simply by the fact
of making a first trip to the country whose music and entertainment
industry meant so much to them. While the screaming crowds are
pounding the outside windows of their caravan and flanking the streets
outside the hotel, Maysles's camera is, like, inches away capturing
their faces and reactions from inside each fortress. And making funny
exclusive phone-ins to Murray the K. It's a very exciting film.
craig.
22143
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:11am
Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> If I'm not mistaken, this is the film frequently referred to as 'The
> Beatles' First U.S. Visit' / 'The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit.'
It's
> out on DVD here --
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00018D2X8/
> qid=1107331010/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl74/102-0900034-
> 4988138?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846
Don't know if it means anything, but Amazon and the Maysles site give
significantly different running times.
22144
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:18am
Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
> It's a very exciting film.
I just want to revise my own post by saying that it is, in fact, a
-tremendously- exciting film -- and the emotional flipside of Michael
Lindsay-Hogg's 'Let It Be' from six years later. Which I actually
prefer, despite its tone of obvious self-censorship. Nothing beats the
electric, up-tempo version of "Two of Us" that John and Paul perform at
the onset -- nor the mute expression on John's face afterward, during
one of Paul's rambles, that screams: "I couldn't be less fucking
interested."
craig.
22145
From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:29am
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
> The stories are endless, particularly if you talk to serious
> archivists, like my buddy D. John Turner in Canada, a man whose
> excess of rationality in a profession that is congenitally
challenged
> in that regard threatens to send him over the edge every day of
his
> life. The truth is, proximity to celluloid makes the human animal,
> already a poor excuse for a rational being, totally insane.
Christ, you're telling me. Aside from fires, moisture, and everyday
heat, they used to take the prints during New Year's Eve and make
them into plastic trumpets. Regal Studios' storage rooms--I've been
there--look like the prison cells Leonardo DeCaprio was trapped in
in Catch Me if You Can.
I hear stories like this producer who fell in love with his lead
actor, and when the actor rebuffed him he dumped the film in the
theaters to show only a few days (I caught the commercial run), then
all the prints disappeared, presumably forever. Greatest Filipino
action film ever made, in my opinion, and when a friend of mine
tried to send it to Berlin Film Festival, the producer's secretary
said they just weren't interested. And that was that. Except a few
years ago I met the producer and HE was looking for the film,
hopefully a copy from some projectionist or provincial distributor.
Last I heard he succumbed to a coma.
And more, much more. Insanity would be a blessing, actually.
22146
From:
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:26am
Subject: Re: What's Happening
It does indeed. The Maysles' original version (never shown) featured
a scene where the Fabs play DJ during a radio station, choosing
records and commenting on them (often sardonically), which is missing
from the DVD, probably for right issues. I believe the DVD (which I
haven't seen, although I've seen the Maysles' cut) includes scenes
that aren't in any previous version.
Sam
>
> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:11:39 -0000
> From: "Matthew Clayfield"
>Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
>
>
>--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, this is the film frequently referred to as 'The
>> Beatles' First U.S. Visit' / 'The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit.'
>It's
>> out on DVD here --
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00018D2X8/
>> qid=1107331010/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl74/102-0900034-
>> 4988138?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846
>
>Don't know if it means anything, but Amazon and the Maysles site give
>significantly different running times.
>
22147
From: Jim Healy
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 11:41am
Subject: Re: Re: What's Happening
We screened the complete 16mm version of What's Hapening (a catchphrase
of Murray the K, I think) at Eastman House last year for a Beatles
series. I haven't seen the shorter video version, but I've heard that
any sequences involving the Beatles listening to other music (Marvin
Gaye, The Impressions) were cut out by Apple. It's a great movie
all-around, but these are some of the best scenes. Either Apple didn't
want to pay for the music rights or they didn't want anyone to think
that the Beatles had other musical influences.
I've heard Maysles has complained that A Hard Days Night ripped off his
documentary and he has a point: it shows the Beatles running away from
fans and being yanked from one appearance to another. It has a long
sequence on a train and it even features a scene of Ringo interacting
with a young child - in this case, it's a little girl.
Jim
samadams@e... wrote:
> It does indeed. The Maysles' original version (never shown) featured
> a scene where the Fabs play DJ during a radio station, choosing
> records and commenting on them (often sardonically), which is missing
> from the DVD, probably for right issues. I believe the DVD (which I
> haven't seen, although I've seen the Maysles' cut) includes scenes
> that aren't in any previous version.
>
> Sam
>
> >
> > Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 08:11:39 -0000
> > From: "Matthew Clayfield"
> >Subject: Re: What's Happening ?
> >
> >
> >--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
> wrote:
> >>
> >> If I'm not mistaken, this is the film frequently referred to as
> 'The
> >> Beatles' First U.S. Visit' / 'The Beatles: The First U.S. Visit.'
> >It's
> >> out on DVD here --
> >>
> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00018D2X8/
> >> qid=1107331010/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl74/102-0900034-
> >> 4988138?v=glance&s=dvd&n=507846
> >
> >Don't know if it means anything, but Amazon and the Maysles site give
>
> >significantly different running times.
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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> Service.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22148
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:40am
Subject: Re: Re: What's Happening
--- samadams@e... wrote:
> It does indeed. The Maysles' original version (never
> shown) featured
> a scene where the Fabs play DJ during a radio
> station, choosing
> records and commenting on them (often sardonically),
> which is missing
> from the DVD, probably for right issues. I believe
> the DVD (which I
> haven't seen, although I've seen the Maysles' cut)
> includes scenes
> that aren't in any previous version.
>
> Sam
>
Theprimary disparity between the DVD and the original
version of "What's Happening" is the inclusion of
concert footage not sot by the Maysles. These are
simple, static long shots of the Beatles on stage --
most likely filmed via camera instaled in the
auditorium for all events.
It's quite a wonderful film and intersting for the
ways in which it differs and echoes "A hard Day's
Night" -- which reconfigures many of its ideas as a
conventional narrative AND Scopitone.
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22149
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 11:24am
Subject: The Celluloid Asylum (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> Christ, you're telling me.
I have to tell a story John Turner told me: A Canadian feature
director used to show up on set with a family of big teddy bears he
insisted on having chairs for - they went everywhere with him. He was
such a bastard that some of the crew kidnaped the bears one day, and
he went on strike, refusing to direct until they were returned.
22150
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:19pm
Subject: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
Now here's a question that has, to the best of my knowledge, never
been answered: Why are there two entirely different edits of MR
ARKADIN - with different takes, different dubbing, different choice
of scenes, different structure, different voiceovers and different
titles - in circulation? Who made the changes (it seems pretty clear
that MR ARKADIN is the earlier cut), and why?
Also, it is my understanding that Welles was fired early in the
editing. But there are several characters in the film who are dubbed
by Welles himself (moreso in MR ARKADIN than in CONFIDENTIAL REPORT).
But wouldn't the dubbing have been carried out after the editing had
been completed? And does this mean that Welles was still involved
during the late stages of post-production?
22151
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:31pm
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
Here's that letter about MOBY DICK, which appeared in the Autumn 1986
issue of SIGHT AND SOUND:
SIR,- If you seek the great white whale, you will not find him in the
whaling grounds but more likely in the vaults of HM Customs and
Excise.
Seriously, reading Jonathan Rosenbaum's article on Orson Welles I
delved deep into the fading memories of Associated Rediffusion TV. I
was a film editor and director from 1955 and remember the MOBY DICK
production. The whale was in the stalls and the ship on stage. Orson
insisted on shooting all his close-ups for the entire production in
one go with the camera canted to simulate the ship rolling about. As
a result, nobody believed it would ever cut together. It would have
been shot in 35mm B&W, possibly by ARTV's senior film cameraman Ted
Lloyd.
I remember a large number of cans turning up at the old Television
House in Kingsway in the late 60s, in bond, with a customs demand for
duty. Rediffusion in the dying days of its contract would not, of
course, pay so they would have been returned to bond. Which is where
they may be to this day.
I cannot remember what ARTV's involvement in the productions was,
except that Orson was shooting some programmes for ARTV in the early
days - 'Orson Welles in London', or similar. They would have been
edited by the late Bill Morton, who was one of the original film
editors with AR and who had worked with Orson in Spain - another
blind alley I fear.
So this may be of no value whatever, but someone might like to follow
it up.
Yours faithfully,
Jim Pople.
Thames Television.
---------------
The TV series mentioned in the penultimate paragraph was AROUND THE
WORLD WITH ORSON WELLES. The London episode actually includes a
reference to the production of MOBY DICK.
22152
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:34pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
All utterly fascinating questions, and the mind
boggles at trying to figure out the answers to
anyone's ultimate satisfaction. But I would guess that
the alterations on "Arkadin/Confidential Report" were
done to a roughly "finished" cut Welles had put
together, complete with dubbing.
I first saw "Mr. Arkadin" in 1962 when it was relased
in the U.S through Dan Talbot's New Yorker films.
Though I loved "Kane," it was "Arkadin" that impressed
me most vis-a-vis Welles, and comined with Losey's
"The Servant" which I first saw the following year at
the New York Film Festival sparked my interest in film
as a "director's medium."
It has always been my feeling that the major damage to
the film was done in the second half as numerous
scenes between Arden and Redgrave, Flon,Auer, Paxinou,
et. al. are foreshortened in a manner that clearly
suggests more was there before someone took a hatchet
to them.
The backward track down a darkened corridor as Arden
heads up a tiny stairway to his meeting with Akim
Tamiroff was slavishly copied by Bertolucci for use in
numerous films including "partner," "The Conformist,"
"The Spider's Strategem" and "Last Tango in Paris."
There's even a trace of it in his (wildly underrated)
"The Sheltering Sky" (which as I'm sure you know stars
Bill Krohn's nemesis)
Love the Paul Misraki score. And Kaxinou's
gut-wrenching cry "I was crazy in love with him
mister!" is nothing short of sublime.
--- thebradstevens wrote:
>
> Now here's a question that has, to the best of my
> knowledge, never
> been answered: Why are there two entirely different
> edits of MR
> ARKADIN - with different takes, different dubbing,
> different choice
> of scenes, different structure, different voiceovers
> and different
> titles - in circulation? Who made the changes (it
> seems pretty clear
> that MR ARKADIN is the earlier cut), and why?
>
> Also, it is my understanding that Welles was fired
> early in the
> editing. But there are several characters in the
> film who are dubbed
> by Welles himself (moreso in MR ARKADIN than in
> CONFIDENTIAL REPORT).
> But wouldn't the dubbing have been carried out after
> the editing had
> been completed? And does this mean that Welles was
> still involved
> during the late stages of post-production?
>
>
>
>
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22153
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 1:56pm
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
Thanks, The Brad - that's one paper I won't have to look for! That's the Xerox I
had and retyped and sent to O'Herlihy. I also gave it to Bob Gitt of UCLA, but
I'm pretty sure he did nothing to follow up. It's in the able hands of Nick now.
I believe the person who put up the money was Jolivet, also the producer of
Arkadin. It was one of his henchmen who described the footage he saw in
Paris to Pierre. So some footage did get there - which doesn't mean that the
negative etc. isn't all in Britain somewhere. Nick, I'll send you Pierre's e-mail
address off-line.
The play is in print if anyone ever finds the footage - I've actually seen it
performed, and it's great: Moby Dick, which was deeply influenced by
Shakespeare, turned into a five-act Shakespearean tragedy. A brilliant idea,
brilliantly executed by OW.
22154
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 2:01pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
> Now here's a question that has, to the best of my knowledge, never
> been answered: Why are there two entirely different edits of MR
> ARKADIN -
The tale is told in an article JR wrote for Video Watchdog, called something
like The Seven Arkadins. Most of the research has been done by the Italian
Ciro Giorgine, who has also done an essay film on the subject, I believe. (Ciro
made Rosabella, a documentary about Welles in Italy.) Gary Graver jokes
about Ciro that every time he finds a print with a few frames missing he calls it
a "new Arkadin," so the count may be over seven by now. Stefan Droessler's
find, which he is working on now is independent of all that, but will hopefully
be something closer to Welles' film than any of the multitudinous Arkadins
already out there.
22155
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:35pm
Subject: Lumière
I was wondering whether someone on the list might know of any place on
the Web where a complete list of Louis/August Lumière's films might be
found -- with the "catalogue number" for each film attached. (i.e.,
'Chapeaux à transformations, Lumière no. 105')
Thanks!
craig.
22156
From: extreme_elvis
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:53pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
I read "The Seven Arkadins" reprinted in Rosenbaum's book "Movies as
Politics" just a couple days ago. It made me wonder which version of
the film I saw, a VHS copy taken from the library and titled "Mr.
Arkadin AKA Confidential Report."
It's been a few years now, but I remember the almost baroque style,
the grotesque bit characters and the hammy lead performance
by Robert Arden. It's not as consistent (probably due to
interference) as some of the films considered Welles masterpieces,
but it's a lot of fun to watch. Thematically, it's almost the anti-
Kane. I know it may be heresy, but this is the one film I've often
fantasized about remaking. I'd like to see Arkadin recast as a
flamboyant amnesiac gangster rap record mogul. He hires an
enterprising young blackmailer and sets the guy up as a patsy.
Imagine the castle party scenes and the costumes! I am going to hell
for sure.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
> wrote:
> >
> > Now here's a question that has, to the best of my knowledge,
never
> > been answered: Why are there two entirely different edits of MR
> > ARKADIN -
>
> The tale is told in an article JR wrote for Video Watchdog, called
something
> like The Seven Arkadins. Most of the research has been done by the
Italian
> Ciro Giorgine, who has also done an essay film on the subject, I
believe. (Ciro
> made Rosabella, a documentary about Welles in Italy.) Gary Graver
jokes
> about Ciro that every time he finds a print with a few frames
missing he calls it
> a "new Arkadin," so the count may be over seven by now. Stefan
Droessler's
> find, which he is working on now is independent of all that, but
will hopefully
> be something closer to Welles' film than any of the multitudinous
Arkadins
> already out there.
22157
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 3:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- extreme_elvis wrote:
I know it may be heresy, but this is the one
> film I've often
> fantasized about remaking. I'd like to see Arkadin
> recast as a
> flamboyant amnesiac gangster rap record mogul. He
> hires an
> enterprising young blackmailer and sets the guy up
> as a patsy.
> Imagine the castle party scenes and the costumes!
Imagine the deals you'd strike at Sundance!
I
> am going to hell
> for sure.
>
No shit, Sherlock!
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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22158
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:13pm
Subject: Cafe Lumiere, HHH
I remember with a certain pleasure my discovery of Hou's works in
the late 90's. The Boys From Fengkuei, A Summer at Grandpa's, The
Time to Live and the Time to Die... mainly, if not only. I wouldn't
know which one I favour; I guess they are all somewhat mixed up in
my memories right now. A rare balance between the modesty, the
delicacy of a gaze that doesn't touch things and the strength of
welling up emotions. Restraint but palpable emotion.
But what came next... Was there any change indeed? Café Lumière is
such a bore. Weak and half-hearted. Off-peak, shall we say? But what
are the peaks? Over-valued time, swelling up to a point where it
seems only full of vacuum. Hou shows nothing. The film has no object
beyond the contemplation of a wait that never resolves itself. These
views of the crazy trains interchanges are beautiful, but I never
felt the presence of the characters in that world. Absent bodies. No
soul and no secrets.
22159
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Lumière
Don't know, but I have somewhere (Sadoul's) a full list from #1 to
#400 approx. if it may help.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
> I was wondering whether someone on the list might know of any
place on
> the Web where a complete list of Louis/August Lumière's films
might be
> found -- with the "catalogue number" for each film attached.
(i.e.,
> 'Chapeaux à transformations, Lumière no. 105')
>
> Thanks!
>
> craig.
22160
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:22pm
Subject: Re: Pialat
Among Parisian cinephiles, La Maison des bois, his '71 TV serie,
seems to be the must. I haven't seen it, but it seems to me I read
somewhere it will be shown here this year. Any thought on that one?
22161
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:28pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
>
> The tale is told in an article JR wrote for Video Watchdog, called
something
> like The Seven Arkadins.
You're confusing two articles that appeared around the same time.
Jonathan's THE SEVEN ARKADINS appeared in FILM COMMENT, and was
reprinted in MOVIES AS POLITICS. Tim Lucas' two part article appeared
in VIDEO WATCHDOG.
According to Jonathan, Welles spent four months editing the film, but
was fired after he missed the deadline. The editing was completed by
Renzo Lucidi (with Welles continuing to communicate his intentions to
him). "Once Lucidi had finished ediitng this version, (producer
Louis) Dolivet apparently asked for the film to be reedited without
most of the flashbacks - in chronological order after the opening
sequence - and this was the principal version released in Europe as
CONFIDENTIAL REPORT".
Welles later claimed that MR ARKADIN was the film of his that was the
most completely destroyed in the cutting...but was he referring to MR
ARKADIN, or to CONFIDENTIAL REPORT.. or to both? Did he even know
that more than one version was in circulation?
In the Bogdanovich interview book, Welles claims that "In my version,
you saw Arkadin as a sentimental, rather maudlin Russian drunk. Those
scenes were cut out - there was another party scene, and another
scene between Arkadin and Van Stratten, neither of which is in the
picture now". Intriguingly, CONFIDENTIAL REPORT does contain another
party scene (technically an added sequence within the party scene)
showing Arkadin describing a dream he had about a cemetery...a scene
which could be described as showing Arkadin as a maudlin drunk. This
scene is not in MR ARKADIN. So is CONFIDENTIAL REPORT, though
apparently the product of Lucidi's reediting, closer to Welles'
intentions than MR ARKADIN?
Stefan Droessler's
> find, which he is working on now is independent of all that, but
will hopefully
> be something closer to Welles' film than any of the multitudinous
Arkadins
> already out there.
Tell me more.
22162
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:32pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "extreme_elvis"
wrote:
>
> I read "The Seven Arkadins" reprinted in Rosenbaum's book "Movies
as
> Politics" just a couple days ago. It made me wonder which version
of
> the film I saw, a VHS copy taken from the library and titled "Mr.
> Arkadin AKA Confidential Report."
I should add that there are two versions entitled MR ARKADIN.
The 'other' version is nothing more than a clumsily recut version of
the long MR ARKADIN which totally dispenses with the flashback
structure.
"but this is the one film I've often fantasized about remaking."
Didn't George Bush hire somebody to dig into his past, just to see
what might be discovered? It's pure Gregory Arkadin. Forget about
filming the remake...we're living it!
22163
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:48pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
> wrote:
> >
>
> > Hey, don't you guys realize that just talking about this we are
> > risking certain death?
> >
> > Gabe
>
> I'm deeply aware of it, Gabe.
>
In view of the passionate discussion this subject has evoked would
it be possible for all (or some) of us to travel down to Brazil and
explore these archives? Would the authorities allow us to do so in
the firt place in a quest which resembles an Arthurian quest for the
Holy Grail?
Last night, I ran Robbins's THE CRADLE WILL ROCK in class as an
introduction to the New Deal era and compared the trashing of
Rivera's mural to RKO's destruction of the original version of
AMBERSONS.
Tony Williams
22164
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lumière
On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 05:15 PM, Maxime Renaudin wrote:
>
> Don't know, but I have somewhere (Sadoul's) a full list from #1 to
> #400 approx. if it may help.
Wow, that would be great. I'm just trying to establish some kind of
order to the films in my cataloguing. If you have this digitally, I'd
love to see it!
craig.
22165
From: Maxime Renaudin
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:15pm
Subject: Re: Lumière
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller >
Wow, that would be great. I'm just trying to establish some kind of
> order to the films in my cataloguing. If you have this digitally,
Note that the official Lumiere catalogue order is not chronological.
But alphabetical/thematic (at least the 1st catalogue)
22166
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:21pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
> I read "The Seven Arkadins" reprinted in Rosenbaum's book "Movies as
> Politics" just a couple days ago. It made me wonder which version of
> the film I saw, a VHS copy taken from the library and titled "Mr.
> Arkadin AKA Confidential Report."
Was it this one, actually "Confidential Report AKA Mr Arkadin" (on Home Vision Video, and apparently the same as the collector's-item Criterion laser disc):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0780020634/qid=1107384603/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-0608819-2510503?v=glance&s=video
...
rather than the PD version (see http://www.wellesnet.com/Arkadin%20videos.htm)?
If so (if, for example, it contains, as I think it does, the "black American pianist" and the "Georgian toast"), I think it is Jonathan's "no. 6" -- the
"British cut." But I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong; when I compared some of it to the British DVD (bought on eBay), I did notice some shoddy
edits and the like -- the beginning of one shot was noticeably clipped, e.g.
22167
From:
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 0:22pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
In a message dated 05-02-02 17:56:31 EST, Tony Williams writes:
<< Last night, I ran Robbins's THE CRADLE WILL ROCK in class as an
introduction to the New Deal era and compared the trashing of
Rivera's mural to RKO's destruction of the original version of AMBERSONS. >>
If a_film_by-ers ever come to Detroit, Michigan, please be sure to see Diego
Rivera's murals here. They show the Ford plant, and are at the Detroit
Institute of Art. We did NOT destroy our Rivera's - instead, they are a symbol of
Detroit!
It was fascinating to compare Rivera's murals with Charles Sheeler's "Ford
plant" photographs, which just has a retrospective here. And I finally got to
see the Paul Strand-Sheeler film, "Manhatta", a poeti clook at a skyscraper
filled neighborhood in downtown New York (static, but beautifully filmed).
I loved "Mr. Arkadin" when I saw it decades ago - but have no info on its
versions.
Mike Grost
22168
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 5:48pm
Subject: Douchet & Burdeau on Minnelli
Just came across this interesting discussion of Minnelli (in French)
with Jean Douchet, Emmanuel Burdeau and several others from last
June. It's on the long side so for those of you interested I would
recommend printing it out.
http://www.festival-larochelle.org/fr/rencontre.asp?id=93
22169
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lumière
On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 06:15 PM, Maxime Renaudin wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller >
> Wow, that would be great. I'm just trying to establish some kind of
>> order to the films in my cataloguing. If you have this digitally,
>
> Note that the official Lumiere catalogue order is not chronological.
> But alphabetical/thematic (at least the 1st catalogue)
Duly noted. Besides containing the appended catalogue numbers, is the
Sadoul list ordered chronologically?
craig.
22170
From: Matt Armstrong
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 6:12pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
I couldn't swear to it, but looks like the Home Vision Video one is
the version I saw.
So anyways, Suge Knight as Arkadin?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
>
> > I read "The Seven Arkadins" reprinted in Rosenbaum's
book "Movies as
> > Politics" just a couple days ago. It made me wonder which
version of
> > the film I saw, a VHS copy taken from the library and
titled "Mr.
> > Arkadin AKA Confidential Report."
>
> Was it this one, actually "Confidential Report AKA Mr Arkadin" (on
Home Vision Video, and apparently the same as the collector's-item
Criterion laser disc): http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/0780020634/qid=1107384603/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-0608819-2510503?
v=glance&s=video
> ...
> rather than the PD version (see http://www.wellesnet.com/Arkadin%
20videos.htm)?
>
> If so (if, for example, it contains, as I think it does,
the "black American pianist" and the "Georgian toast"), I think it
is Jonathan's "no. 6" -- the "British cut." But I hope someone will
correct me if I'm wrong; when I compared some of it to the British
DVD (bought on eBay), I did notice some shoddy edits and the like --
the beginning of one shot was noticeably clipped, e.g.
22171
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 7:39pm
Subject: Re: Lumière
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
"I was wondering whether someone on the list might know of any place
on> the Web where a complete list of Louis/August Lumière's films
might be found..."
This information about the Lumiere Bros. in Japan may be of
interest. They screened 20 films in Osaka in the spring of 1897,
the first public film screening held in Japan. After that they made
several film throughout Japan (similiar to their European films in
content, but with the addition of a kendo match, geisha performing,
religious ceremonies, the idigenous people of Hokkaido, and other
scenes unique to Japan.) Constant Girel and Gabriel Veyre were the
camera operators, but Shibata Tsunekichi shot Tokyo street scenes
filmed in 1898, thus becoming the first known Japanese
cinematographer.
Richard
22172
From: Nick Wrigley
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:00pm
Subject: Re: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
Thanks Brad and Bill.
Fascinating stuff indeed. I shall poke around everywhere I can think of
and spread the word.
Associated Rediffusion TV only started broadcasting in September 1955,
the day after ITV began, so this MOBY DICK REHEARSED must've been one
of the first things they were involved with. They came off air in 1968,
but merged with another company and became Thames Television (which is
still operational, but a subsidiary of Pearson TV).
[Bytheway, for non-Brits, these are independent TV stations which
contributed to the channel ITV, (ie. nothing to do with the BBC). For
decades, the UK only had two TV channels - BBC1 and ITV. BBC2 arrived
in the 1960s, and Channel 4 in the 1980s). For over 50 years this is
all the UK had -- then Murdoch arrived and, if you pay him, you can
have 500 satellite/cable/digital channels of rubbish, and only a couple
of channels worth their salt.]
-
Interestingly, the very first night of Associated Rediffusion TV in
September 1955 featured "ROUND THE WORLD WITH ORSON WELLES" at 9:30pm:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/itw/AR/programmes.html
-
Can anybody nail down the month of filming for MOBY DICK REHEARSED?
-Nick>-
22173
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:41pm
Subject: In Search of the White Whale (Was Unfinished Welles (Was: Re: April Criterions)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Nick Wrigley wrote:
> Thanks Brad and Bill.
> Can anybody nail down the month of filming for MOBY DICK REHEARSED?
>
> -Nick>-
June 16-July 9, 1955 - see p. 418 0f Jonathan's Welles work bio in
This Is Orson Welles for more details on who did what, etc.
22174
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:43pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "extreme_elvis"
wrote:
>
> I read "The Seven Arkadins" reprinted in Rosenbaum's book "Movies
as
> Politics" just a couple days ago. It made me wonder which version
of
> the film I saw, a VHS copy taken from the library and titled "Mr.
> Arkadin AKA Confidential Report."
>
> It's been a few years now, but I remember the almost baroque style,
> the grotesque bit characters and the hammy lead performance
> by Robert Arden. It's not as consistent (probably due to
> interference) as some of the films considered Welles masterpieces,
> but it's a lot of fun to watch.
Welles said it was trashed worse than Ambersons.
Thematically, it's almost the anti-
> Kane. I know it may be heresy, but this is the one film I've often
> fantasized about remaking.
You're not the only one.
22175
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Pialat
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin"
wrote:
>
> Among Parisian cinephiles, La Maison des bois, his '71 TV serie,
> seems to be the must. I haven't seen it, but it seems to me I read
> somewhere it will be shown here this year. Any thought on that one?
Biette, in the long diary entry on Pialat that begins "I wish I liked
his films more," says that La Maison des bois blew him away when he
saw it in '71 at a private screening.
22176
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:47pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> Stefan Droessler's
> > find, which he is working on now is independent of all that, but
> will hopefully
> > be something closer to Welles' film than any of the multitudinous
> Arkadins
> > already out there.
>
> Tell me more.
That's all I know. I don't even know how to spell Dolivet!
22177
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:50pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
wrote:
would
> it be possible for all (or some) of us to travel down to Brazil and
> explore these archives? Would the authorities allow us to do so in
> the firt place in a quest which resembles an Arthurian quest for
the
> Holy Grail?
Well, we'd be sure of a good time, anyway.
22178
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
> In view of the passionate discussion this subject has evoked would
> it be possible for all (or some) of us to travel down to Brazil and
> explore these archives? Would the authorities allow us to do so in
> the firt place in a quest which resembles an Arthurian quest for the
> Holy Grail?
Why not? It's a kind of free country, where presidents are elected properly
and don't support colonialism. Be sure to bring Miss Marple, Maigret,
Sherlock and Mr. Hercule Poirot.
> Last night, I ran Robbins's THE CRADLE WILL ROCK in class as an
> introduction to the New Deal era and compared the trashing of
> Rivera's mural to RKO's destruction of the original version of
> AMBERSONS.
Just that Rivera was no Welles.
22179
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
And if one stays three weeks from tomorrow one will be able to catch Au
Hasard Balthazar, Beware of the Holy Whore and The Passenger on Sessão
Cineclube.
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:50 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
>
>
> Well, we'd be sure of a good time, anyway.
>
22180
From: Fred Camper
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 10:22pm
Subject: Re: A Lady without Passport
Adrian, I'm curious if you saw Joseph H. Lewis's "A Lady Without
Passport," which you inquired about earlier, and what you thought. I did
see it in a good 16mm print a few days ago here in Chicago, the same
showing that Jonathan wrote a capsule for. While it's uneven, which
Lewis's masterpieces are not, I thought it had some really great things,
and for me part of the pleasure of auteurism applied to Hollywood films
is in loving those "uneven" films which have moments of genuine vision.
The opening is great, a view from a car moving car a bit reminiscent of
the famous long-take bank robbery in "Gun Crazy," the view from a car
ultimately "fingering" a pedestrian. There are some fine tightly framed
close shots that resonate with what I think is Lewis's great theme,
people lost in space, either in a labyrinthine swamp (there are at least
five Lewis lost in swamp scenes) or the metaphorical swamp of the things
like the final fog of "The Big Combo," or seen in isolating close-ups
that unbalance things. Anyway, "A Lady Without Passport" ends with a
terrific swamp scene.
The great shot that I remembered is actually a two-shot sequence. A
small band of would-be illegal émigrés to the US from Cuba has hired a
smuggler to fly them in, but now their plane is being pursued by a US
government plane, and the pilot and smuggler are plotting to save only
themselves. In the first of these two shots, the camera films the
émigrés from behind, looking out the window at the plane, and quickly
dollies back from them. Lewis then cuts on the pullback to a reverse
shot of them looking through the window from outside the window. This
cut alone is great, in the way that the pulling away from them
emphasizing their fate collides with an even more "distanced" shot as
they're seen imprisoned behind glass. But the imprisoned behind glass
shot is tremendous, one of the greatest moments in Lewis, their faces
floating in the glass's "fog" as the pursuing plane's reflection is also
visible.
I want to be clear that I'm not defending pretty pictures or nice
touches. This is a moment that goes to the core of Lewis's art, in this
film and in others, and follows a pattern I've seen again and again in
films by great "auteurs": an extremely great moment that is a visible
manifestation of a stylistic principle that informs the whole work.
Other examples include the famous TV-reflection image in Douglas Sirk's
"All That Heaven Allows," the cut to the first TV image in Fritz Lang's
"The 1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse," the great ambulance camera movement in
Andre de Toth's "Slattery's Hurricane," the long camera movement past
objects to their shadows in Frank Borzage's "The Mortal Storm," the two
moments in John Ford's "How Green Was My Valley" when groups of
characters freeze for a moment in the face of news of the family's
dissolution.
Fred Camper
22181
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Wed Feb 2, 2005 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
> In view of the passionate discussion this subject has evoked
> would
> it be possible for all (or some) of us to travel down to Brazil and
> explore these archives?
I know a travel agent.
Seriously though, you have to be awfully ingenuous to believe
that these places haven't been combed for the Ambersons cans
by dozens of folks, especially in the last twenty years. But it would
make for a fascinating movie (which is what I think Northwestern
grad Josh Greenberg was doing when he went down to Brazil
looking for it).
Gabe
22182
From: Saul
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:57am
Subject: Memories of Silent Cinema
Was it just me, or did anyone else who saw Chanel's Haute Couture
Spring Summer 2005 collection, think it reminded them of silent
cinema? Not just in the stylistic influences of the designs, and not
just in the predominance of blacks and whites, but in the heavily
powdered faces of the models, most of whom have their eyebrows painted
thick and dark black...
A question: when did fashion designers first start working in
connexion with the movies? And did it first happen in America, or
somewhere else such as France?
22183
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:25am
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
>
you have to be awfully ingenuous to believe
> that these places haven't been combed for the Ambersons cans
> by dozens of folks, especially in the last twenty years.
If only that were true, Gabe.
22184
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:24am
Subject: Re: A Lady without Passport
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Adrian, I'm curious if you saw Joseph H. Lewis's "A Lady Without
for me part of the pleasure of auteurism applied to Hollywood films
> is in loving those "uneven" films which have moments of genuine
vision.
I've seen credit sequences he directed before becoming a director
that contain more visual ideas than the whole movie that follows.
22185
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:37am
Subject: Re: Pialat
Not that his rep stands or falls on what I think, but I did like
L'enfance nu and La geule ouverte tonight. More money than Passe ton
bac and less improvising than A nos amours, but the same radical
negativity (to borrow Oudart's word). These are very strange films -
as strange as the Straubs - and they take getting used to; even then
they are defiantly off-putting. People who compare Pialat to Bresson
haven't an inkling what either filmmaker is doing - they're polar
opposites.
Joseph K. and I were laughing afterwards about the idea of showing
L'enfance nu in one of those screenwriting classes where they talk
about "character arcs" and "journeys." Everything possible has been
done to wring the neck of those conventions, along with the kind of
cutting called "suture," which is virtually absent. Meaning to be
supplied, in an act of desperation, by the spectator, because the
movie suspends it, shot by shot.
22186
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 8:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Pialat
> Among Parisian cinephiles, La Maison des bois, his '71 TV serie,
> seems to be the must. I haven't seen it, but it seems to me I read
> somewhere it will be shown here this year. Any thought on that one?
It's also Pialat's favorite. But I've seen it twice, and for me it's not
one of his best at all. There are many good things in it, but there's
also a more conventional feeling to the drama. And Pialat experiments
with minimalist ideas that don't seem a perfect fit for him. - Dan
22187
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 8:11am
Subject: Re: Memories of Silent Cinema
--- Saul wrote:
>
> A question: when did fashion designers first start
> working in
> connexion with the movies? And did it first happen
> in America, or
> somewhere else such as France?
>
>
I would hazard a guess by the 1920's. A number of
years back I had a chance to interview Erte who,
besides being an illustrator was also a fashion
designer for the Ziegfeld DFollies, George' White's
Scandals and other such shows. He was thus hired by
MGM to create designs for them. He wasn't even put a
on a specific movie -- just hired to create high
fashion outfits for the stars. He recalled the young
Joan Crawford as being especially difficult to work
with.
Wehn I worked on the "Hollywood and History" show for
the L.A. County Museum we discovered thatseveral
different designers were used for the silent "Ben-Hur"
-- only a few of whose designs made it into the
finished film. Byt the start of thsound era the
studios found it easier to have their own fashion
creators and thus, Adrian, Travis Bnaton, et. al.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
22188
From: Sam Adams
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 8:20am
Subject: Re:Memories of Silent Cinema
Saul:
Since David E. beat me to a more comprehensive answer, I'll just point out there's a fascinating short film on the dvd of Grey Gardens about fashion
collections that have been influenced by documentaries. Todd Oldham's GG colllection is one of them, of course, but there's Isaac Mizrahi line inspired by
Nanook of the North as well.
Sam
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:57:04 -0000
From: "Saul"
Subject: Memories of Silent Cinema
Was it just me, or did anyone else who saw Chanel's Haute Couture
Spring Summer 2005 collection, think it reminded them of silent
cinema? Not just in the stylistic influences of the designs, and not
just in the predominance of blacks and whites, but in the heavily
powdered faces of the models, most of whom have their eyebrows painted
thick and dark black...
A question: when did fashion designers first start working in
connexion with the movies? And did it first happen in America, or
somewhere else such as France?
22189
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:21am
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
> > In view of the passionate discussion this subject has evoked
> > would
> > it be possible for all (or some) of us to travel down to Brazil and
> > explore these archives?
>
> I know a travel agent.
*****
Yeesh. Why did Aldrich's "Flight of the Phoenix" suddenly pop into my
head?
> Seriously though, you have to be awfully ingenuous to believe
> that these places haven't been combed for the Ambersons cans
> by dozens of folks, especially in the last twenty years.
*****
Are you sure about that, Gabe? Personally, I can't imagine anyone,
save for the most reckless cinephile, who'd relish apending quality
time searching through every forbidding corner of some South American
hellhole even for a Grail as Holy as "Ambersons". If it's in
Brazil(which it probably isn't), my guess is it'll probably stay there.
Some lost films just aren't meant to be found.
Tom Sutpen
22190
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:27am
Subject: Re: A Lady without Passport
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
.
>
> I've seen credit sequences he directed before becoming a director
> that contain more visual ideas than the whole movie that follows.
Such as?
22191
From:
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:34am
Subject: Re: Memories of Silent Cinema
What you need is a wonderful book, "Costume Design in the Movies" (1976) by
Elizabeth Leese.
Leese describes how from 1910 on, there were non-fiction short films of
fashion shows.
Then, around 1915, movies started advertising that their stars were garbed in
the latest fashions. These were often by designers outside of Hollywood.
By 1916, Vera West was actually working at the studios, doing "Intolerance"
(Griffith), then moving on to Cecil. B. De Mille productions. Her gown for Bebe
Daniels in "The Affairs of Anatol" (De Mille, 1921) has to be seen to be
believed (shot in blazing red in the 2-color Technicolor finale of the film.) They
don't make movies like they used to!
Mike Grost
22192
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:50am
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
> wrote:
> >
> you have to be awfully ingenuous to believe
> > that these places haven't been combed for the Ambersons
cans
> > by dozens of folks, especially in the last twenty years.
>
> If only that were true, Gabe.
But it is true! When the people at the Cinemateca put me in touch
with Hernani Heffner a little over a year ago, he said I was only
about the hundredth person to ask.
Seriously, if a bunch of a_film_byers fly out to Brazil, what are
they gonna do except drink caipirinhas?
Gabe
22193
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:00pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
> Personally, I can't imagine anyone,
> save for the most reckless cinephile, who'd relish apending
>quality
> time searching through every forbidding corner of some South
>American
> hellhole even for a Grail as Holy as "Ambersons".
Don't you think "South American hellhole" is a little provincial? I
guess movies like THE RUNDOWN are still perpetuating the
same Latin American stereotypes....
Anyway, I'm not sure what your idea of "quality time" is, but why
wouldn't any Brazilian, whether its for cinephile or monetary
rewards, look for the Magnificent Ambersons? It's been done;
don't ask me, ask Hernani Heffner or anyone who is an archivist
in Brazil.
22194
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:36pm
Subject: Re: Memories of Silent Cinema
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
> Was it just me, or did anyone else who saw Chanel's Haute Couture
> Spring Summer 2005 collection, think it reminded them of silent
> cinema? Not just in the stylistic influences of the designs, and not
> just in the predominance of blacks and whites, but in the heavily
> powdered faces of the models, most of whom have their eyebrows
painted
> thick and dark black...
>
> A question: when did fashion designers first start working in
> connexion with the movies? And did it first happen in America, or
> somewhere else such as France?
Depending on how deeply you want to go into this, Saul - and I do see
you've had some good answers already - the guy to talk to is David
Chierrichetti. I have a number for him if you want it - kind of old.
22195
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:37pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> Seriously, if a bunch of a_film_byers fly out to Brazil, what are
> they gonna do except drink caipirinhas?
Well, that would be a start!
22196
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:47pm
Subject: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
Tom Sutpen wrote:
> ....I can't imagine anyone,
> save for the most reckless cinephile, who'd relish apending quality
> time searching through every forbidding corner of some South American
> hellhole ....
Seconding Gabe's comments, but in stronger terms, São Paulo and Rio de
Janeiro are in no way "South American hellholes." Anyone who visits
either city whose intelligence is greater than that of George W. Bush
would find such a characterization ridiculous. Both are great world
cities, with wonderful architecture, amazing food, and fascinating
people. I realize the native Brazilians on this list may not want to say
this, but I, as a citizen of Bushland, can. I spent a month in Brazil in
2003, and it was one of the happiest of my life.
So there are in fact many reasons for visiting Brazil other than
searching for "Ambersons." Among them:
1. Amazing landscapes. Rio is spectacular.
2. Great food, and food that's "different" too. For a holder of dollars
or Euros, prices are very cheap; a great meal can be had for $10.
3. An interesting popular culture. Ruy can point you to concerts unlike
what you'll hear elsewhere, as he did for me. (Thanks, Ruy.)
4. Great architecture. I love Oscar Niemeyer, whose buildings I saw in
São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Niteroi, Belo Horizonte, and especially
Brasilia. Rio also has a great 1936 office building, a real beauty,
which Le Corbusier worked on, and which is sometimes called the first
glass curtain-wall skyscraper, the Ministry of Education and Health.
5. The young cinephiles of Brazil are very much worth meeting -- I
enjoyed meeting Ruy, Filipe, Fernando, and others. And they don't just
know cinema. They knew and loved the Le Corbusier building when I
mentioned it. Sticking to early skyscrapers, how many New York
cinephiles know Louis Sullivan's Bayard Building in Manhattan --
especially those in their 20s? Or even the great Woolworth Building?
6. A general feeling of "difference," for an American. The U.S. is
certainly multi-racial, but there was something about the wide variety
of colors among Brazilians that made race seem a lot less relevant, more
like a "flavor" than an identity. This may be all wrong, it may be just
a tourist's perspective, but that's how things looked to me -- and not
how things looked in, for example, Italy, where African immigrants are
not exactly assimilated.
Fred Camper
22197
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Tom Sutpen wrote:
?
>
> 6. A general feeling of "difference," for an American. The U.S. is
> certainly multi-racial, but there was something about the wide
variety
> of colors among Brazilians that made race seem a lot less relevant,
more
> like a "flavor" than an identity. This may be all wrong, it may be
just
> a tourist's perspective, but that's how things looked to me -- and
not
> how things looked in, for example, Italy, where African immigrants
are
> not exactly assimilated.
"We have a lot to learn from Brazilians, who have the blood of all
men." Orson Welles
I will repeat what I've said before - Brazil is the future, the
United States is the past.
22198
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:02pm
Subject: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
Provocative (and bitchy) Aviator review in the new Bright Lights,
just up - the latest from too-damn-busy-to-do-more-than-lurk afb'er
Gary Morris.
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/47/aviator.htm
22199
From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:08pm
Subject: Re: MR ARKADIN vs CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
> wrote:
>
> > Stefan Droessler's
> > > find, which he is working on now is independent of all that,
but
> > will hopefully
> > > be something closer to Welles' film than any of the
multitudinous
> > Arkadins
> > > already out there.
> >
I don't see how it could be, because combining all the footage
doesn't address the differences in editing in the separate versions.
Next week, Jim Naremore and I are recording a joint commentary for
the Criterion DVD of ARKADIN (the Corinth version),; Stefan's
version will also be on the disc.
Jonathan
22200
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:12pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
"4. Great architecture. I love Oscar Niemeyer, whose buildings I saw
in São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Niteroi, Belo Horizonte, and
especially Brasilia..."
Let me add the great landscape architect Roberto Marx to the list,
probably the most innovative landscape architect of the modern era.
Richard
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