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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
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22201
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:29pm
Subject: Re: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
Whoa! Who ate his lunch and ran?
"Cate Blanchett has a good time as Katherine Hepburn
(right), playing her as an outright dyke who
inexplicably prefers screwing men."
No, that's the picture I would have made.
Charles Higham is not an authority on anything other
than Charles Higham.
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Provocative (and bitchy) Aviator review in the new
> Bright Lights,
> just up - the latest from
> too-damn-busy-to-do-more-than-lurk afb'er
> Gary Morris.
>
> http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/47/aviator.htm
>
>
>
>
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22202
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
> Don't you think "South American hellhole" is a little provincial?
*****
You say 'provincial' like it's a bad thing.
Seriously, I meant nothing pejorative about our neighbors to the
South, truly; only that the spots one would have to dig through to
locate something so lost are, I imagine, probably pretty remote and
rather forbidding for those not used to conducting such searches.
> I
> guess movies like THE RUNDOWN are still perpetuating the
> same Latin American stereotypes....
*****
Wouldn't know; haven't seen it.
> Anyway, I'm not sure what your idea of "quality time" is, but why
> wouldn't any Brazilian, whether its for cinephile or monetary
> rewards, look for the Magnificent Ambersons? It's been done;
> don't ask me, ask Hernani Heffner or anyone who is an archivist
> in Brazil.
*****
Oh, I'm sure it's been done. And done. I was saying this in the
context of the suggestion that we amateur sleuths of "a_film_by" leave
behind our quotidian occupations and hie away to do the job ourselves.
Again, nothing to get offended about, surely.
Tom Sutpen
22203
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:13pm
Subject: Re: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> Provocative (and bitchy) Aviator review in the new Bright Lights,
> just up - the latest from too-damn-busy-to-do-more-than-lurk
afb'er
> Gary Morris.
>
> http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/47/aviator.htm
Hah! I was just going to recommend this review for capturing the
movie in a nutshell: "He's just a kid, damn it, just a big, sweet
kid, with more guts than all of you phonies put together! No wonder
you had to destroy him!"
The other article in that issue about "The Aviator" puts the
script's dime store psychology (Mama bathes Sonny in pathology) in
its place by reminding us that Howard Hughes suffered serious brain
damage in a stupid flying stunt during the making of "Hell's
Angels", which more than adequately accounts for the horror he
became.
--Robert Keser
22204
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Tom Sutpen wrote:
> Seconding Gabe's comments, but in stronger terms, São Paulo and Rio de
> Janeiro are in no way "South American hellholes." Anyone who visits
> either city whose intelligence is greater than that of George W. Bush
> would find such a characterization ridiculous. Both are great world
> cities, with wonderful architecture, amazing food, and fascinating
> people. I realize the native Brazilians on this list may not want to
say
> this, but I, as a citizen of Bushland, can. I spent a month in
Brazil in
> 2003, and it was one of the happiest of my life.
*****
O-kaayy.
Once again, my apologies to all the World Travellers, 14-day tourists
and residents of the fair state of Brazil gathered herein. I
understand how fashionable it is for the All Stars to see me as less
than human and tar me as a neanderthal before the multitudes(even
should it necessitate going OT to do so), but believe it or not, my
"characterization" wasn't in reference to the country of Brazil
itself, the cities of Rio or Sao Paulo, the people, the food, the
architecture, the hotels, the bars, any of that. Only those places
where something no one has found might conceivably be. I'm sure we can
agree that even the most beautiful spots on earth have their nightmare
zones; places no one would enter for love nor money nor "Ambersons".
This, I imagine, is where the film might be should it exist at all.
It's ALL I meant.
I've never stood beneath the amber moon of Brazil, so I wouldn't
hazard under any circumstances to generalize about it. But I'll take
your word it's a nice place to visit.
Now, can I have my status as a human being back?
Tom "Pretty Please" Sutpen
22205
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>
> I've never stood beneath the amber moon of Brazil, so I wouldn't
> hazard under any circumstances to generalize about it. But I'll take
> your word it's a nice place to visit.
>
> Now, can I have my status as a human being back?
>
> Tom "Pretty Please" Sutpen
Tom's remark was humorously intended, as was Gabe's reply. I laughed
at both, anyway. But Fred is right to sing thepraises of this amazing
country. But he left out two of the most important resources Brazil
will someday offer the world, or what's left of it when the oil
fascists are thru nuking each other: magic and plants, in astonishing
variety and profusion.
22206
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:49pm
Subject: Re: A Lady without Passport
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
> .
> >
> > I've seen credit sequences he directed before becoming a
director
> > that contain more visual ideas than the whole movie that follows.
>
> Such as?
On ONE FRIGHTENED NIGHT by Christy Cabanne, Lewis is credited as
editor but obviously did the lovely credit sequence, a
veritable "soundy" whose visuals consist of people raising and
lowering windowshades.
22207
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
>
> > Last night, I ran Robbins's THE CRADLE WILL ROCK in class as an
> > introduction to the New Deal era and compared the trashing of
> > Rivera's mural to RKO's destruction of the original version of
> > AMBERSONS.
>
> Just that Rivera was no Welles.
Yes, I would agree here. But the important point is the malicious
trashing of a work of art by the ruthless capitalist establishment
which is unforgiveable whoever is involved.
Also, many students never knew how close their country was to a
National Theatre in the New Deal. Robbins's film does have its
faults but it works on an educational level and does provide some
context to understand important connections between Welles's 1930s
work and his later films for those who only know him as a sherry
commercial salesman and still buy into the myths of artistic decline
still promoted by the Hollywood establishment and others for obvious
reasons.
Tony Williams
22208
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 3:38pm
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
wrote:
many students never knew how close their country was to a
> National Theatre in the New Deal. Robbins's film does have its
> faults but it works on an educational level and does provide some
> context to understand important connections between Welles's 1930s
> work and his later films for those who only know him as a sherry
> commercial salesman and still buy into the myths of artistic
decline still promoted by the Hollywood establishment and others for
obvious reasons.
>
> Tony Williams
The memory hole known as public education, which has been eradicating
the past and the principles of the United States since the onset of
the Cold War, has just about hit rock bottom with the story published
by USA Today last week according to which 37% of high school
stundents polled thought our press is too free, and the government
should be allowed to vet stories before they appear. The history
recounted in Cradle (I just wish Welles had been able to make his
version) belongs to a lost continent called America. I miss it, and I
don't think we're ever going to see it again. No doubt the values it
once stood for will continue to spring up in other parts of the world
when the cradle of liberty has become its grave. I hope I'm wrong
about that part, but what I'm seeing is not a throwback to the Nixon
years - it's something much, much worse.
22209
From: Saul
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
> I'm sure we can
> agree that even the most beautiful spots on earth have their nightmare
> zones; places no one would enter for love nor money nor "Ambersons".
I wouldn't agree. I agree that there are "nightmare zones", if we must
use those words - but I would enter them and it wouldn't have to be
for love or money - "Ambersons" would be more than enough, though
there are a million other good reasons. One thing art can show us, and
which many movies try to show us, are these very spots - though most
filmmakers who are drawn to the "filth" and "dregs" of society don't
seem to have actually experienced this lifestyle, and seem to
visualize and narrativize it from their external position.
More, the mindset of such places and the people that inhabit them
seems to escape these films. A friend of mine who lives in housing
commission, just yesterday had his dog set on fire by a neighbour who
didn't like it - the neighbour having been recently released from
prison after serving a stint for manslaughter - the dog died. Not a
single movie title comes to mind that has captured these areas,
(please feel free to pipe up and tell me some if there are any!), but
many authors, perhaps cause anyone can write a novel without the need
for financial or social help, can severely catapult readers into a
truly unpleasant mindset and the back-alleys that beckon. Irvine Welsh
is a good mainstream starter with books like "Filth" or "Glue".
-- A slightly more impassioned than usual Saul.
22210
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:21pm
Subject: Attention Jean-Pierre
and others who've been following our verbal champ
contre champ:
http://people-vs-drchilledair.blogspot.com/
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22211
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 4:45pm
Subject: Sights & Sounds
Recently, reading an article by Michel Chion on a show in Paris
devoted to "Sound in XXth Century Art," I was reminded of my
frustration, when watching Brackage's hand-painted abstract films
(which I like a lot, especially the longer, more recent ones) at
their soundlessness, as they seem to scream for some kind of music
(I can't imagine Norman McLaren's "Begone Dull Care" or "Blinkity
Blank<" for example, without music). I know that Brackage wants his
films to be silent and has made only a very few with sound, usually
minimal. And one could argue that since I probably don't feel a
need for music to watch, say, a Jackson Pollock painting, why should
I when watching an abstract film? I would answer that painting his a
static art while both film and music are kinetic -- they are in
perpetual motion, and they depend on rhythm. The unreeling of
abstract shapes and colors on the screen seems to require a musical
complement -- or if it doesn't "require" it, at least music would
seem to bring something more, to improve the viewing experience. I
made a crude experiment, played sections of "The Art of Fugue" while
watching SB's "Love Song" and it sort of worked for me. It was a
random choice -- interestingly, almost any kind of music will fit,
because our mind instinctively establishes a relationship between
synchronized audio and visual stimuli. I would like to know what SB,
and his admirers here, especially Fred, think about this matter.
22212
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> The unreeling of
> abstract shapes and colors on the screen seems to require a musical
> complement -- or if it doesn't "require" it, at least music would
> seem to bring something more, to improve the viewing experience.
*****
I know you didn't ask for the participation of a rank xenophobe, but
here I am nevertheless.
The right music might well enhance the experience for the viewer, but
probably not in any way the artist ever intended. And to me that makes
all the difference. I don't know if your point is that this is
something Brakhage should have done himself, or that it's a
responsibility viewers and/or exhibitors should take upon themselves.
But if it should be the latter, then I can't agree. It's clear from my
knowledge of Brakhage's work that he only used sound when he felt it
necessary (Fred could speak to this point with a great deal more
authority than I, however), so for a third party to ride in apply an
additive such as music after the fact is in a sense tampering with the
work; no matter how neatly the music chosen may fit with the visual
component.
Tom Sutpen
22213
From:
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:15pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage was completely opposed to
any sort of music and sound during his silent films. Hence, they should only
be watched silent.
On the other issue: I agree with JPC that there are tremendous possiblities
in the synchronization of music and sound. Abstract films like Lapis (James
Whitney) or Motion Painting No. 1 (Oskar Fischinger) benefit greatly from their
musical scores.
Mike Grost
22214
From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:15pm
Subject: Re: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
"Scarface (1932) is an exception to this crass and sweeping
generalization, thanks to Paul Muni's over-the-top performance in
the title role, along with plenty of pre-Code babosity from Ann
Dvorak and Karen Morley."
Hm. And Howard Hawks didn't have anything to do with the film, I
suppose.
22215
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 5:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- MG4273@a... wrote:
> It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage
> was completely opposed to
> any sort of music and sound during his silent films.
When he began Warren Sonbert would create
accompaniment for his films with carefully chosen
pieces of popmucis. But by the early 70's he gave that
up and opted for total silence.
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22216
From:
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 0:43pm
Subject: Re: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
This review by the zany Alan Vanneman is quite funny. It is not deep, but it
sure does evoke the mood of the film.
Mike Grost
22217
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Sutpen" wrote:
>
I don't know if your point is that this is
> something Brakhage should have done himself, or that it's a
> responsibility viewers and/or exhibitors should take upon
themselves.
> But if it should be the latter, then I can't agree.
It is neither, and particularly not the latter! I would never
dream of tampering (or asking anyone to tamper) with a work of art,
and my little experiment was conducted for the sole purpose of
satisfying my curiosity.
My point was simply that I feel that those films would be
enhanced by music, although I realize that if Brakhage wants them
soundless, then soundless they should be. Generally speaking, by the
way, I dislike music added to silent films (to the point that when i
watch one on TV or video, I often turn off the sound -- which brings
me back to the days of pristine silence at the Paris Cinematheque!).
But silent films were soundless because they had no other choice.
Brakhage has. That is why i would like to know his reasons for
refusing music (I'm referring specifically to his hand-painted
abstracts films). As I wrote before, films by len Lye or Norman
McLaren which in some ways are very much like SB's, have music and
are difficult to imagine without it. Maurice Blackburn's wonderful,
witty score for "Blinkity Blank" or the Oscar Peterson trio improv.
to the three sections of "Begone Dull Care" are an integral part of
the visuals. Of course those films were intended for their
particular music, it was not tacked on them artificially. Maybe
Brakhage feels is art is purer if kept soundless, and that would be
a perfectly legitimate stand, even though, as a viewer, I can't
quite agree with it.
JPC
22218
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage was completely
opposed to
> any sort of music and sound during his silent films. Hence, they
should only
> be watched silent.
>
Yes, but is it totally inappropriate and rude to ask why?
22219
From: Matt Armstrong
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 6:47pm
Subject: Jan Kounen
Is anyone familiar with this director? I was invited to see his
latest at the SF Indie Fest tomorrow night. A psychedelic Western
starring Vincent Cassell and Ernest Borgnine, co-written by Gerard
Brach (!)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0276830/maindetails
22220
From:
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 2:28pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
In a message dated 05-02-03 19:30:26 EST, you write:
<
during his silent films. Hence, they should only be watched silent.
JPC: Yes, but is it totally inappropriate and rude to ask why? >>
Did not mean to give that impression! JPC's question is a good one!
Unfortunately, I do not know Brakhage's reasoning on the subject. He talks
about it in the Brakhage biopic, but I do not remember his reasoning.
I too remember watching a lot of 1920's silent films in complete silence back
during my college Film Society days. It's a "different" experience. First you
see one image, then another image flows out of it, then another. You are in a
totally visual world. There is a sort of "logic" that builds up. Each image
is related purely to the image before it, and derives from it. This logic is
lacking in films with sound. Even music adds an extra element, that is not part
of the pure visual logic. It is like a form of visual reasoning. It is a
fascinating experience, at its best.
I love silent films!
Mike Grost
22221
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:29pm
Subject: Re: Jan Kounen
What a cast ! Juliette AND Geoffrey Lewis.
Why isn't Julie Delpy in it?
--- Matt Armstrong wrote:
>
> Is anyone familiar with this director? I was invited
> to see his
> latest at the SF Indie Fest tomorrow night. A
> psychedelic Western
> starring Vincent Cassell and Ernest Borgnine,
> co-written by Gerard
> Brach (!)
>
> http://imdb.com/title/tt0276830/maindetails
>
>
>
>
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22222
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage was
completely
> opposed to
> > any sort of music and sound during his silent films. Hence, they
> should only
> > be watched silent.
> >
>
> Yes, but is it totally inappropriate and rude to ask why?
But it's something of a fantasy to suppose that a movie can be
watched in soundless conditions. When no soundtrack of any kind is
provided, then the ambient sound of the environment necessarily
takes over as the soundtrack.
I remember showing "The Dante Quartet" to a film class last year,
all to the unwelcome accompaniment of a series of fire engines
wailing down the street outside (which intruded on half the running
time of the film). Even without big honking sound-producers, there's
always the random coughs, snuffles, chair-creaks, and what-have-you
that then become the uncontrollable aural environment for the film.
--Robert Keser
22223
From: Robert Keser
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 7:50pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage was
completely
> opposed to
> > any sort of music and sound during his silent films. Hence, they
> should only
> > be watched silent.
But it's something of a fantasy to believe in a soundless film. When
no soundtrack is provided, then the ambient sound in the environment
takes over as the soundtrack, for better or ill.
I remember showing "The Dante Quartet" to a film class last year
while a fleet of fire engines wailed down the street outside the
window, making an unwelcome accompaniment through a good half og the
film's running time. Was this okay with Brakhage?
Even without great honking noise-producers, the "soundless"
screening room gets filled with the coughs, snuffles, chair-creaks,
and various rumbles of the environment. Some of my students regarded
the silence as an affectation.
--Robert Keser
22224
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 8:22pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
> I would like to know what SB,
> and his admirers here, especially Fred, think about this matter.
I thought I remembered seeing this discussed here, but I may have been thinking of this, from another forum: http://www.hi-beam.net/fw/fw20/0222.html
22225
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 9:22pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
> But it's something of a fantasy to believe in a soundless film. When
> no soundtrack is provided, then the ambient sound in the environment
> takes over as the soundtrack, for better or ill.
This a Cagean understanding which I think Brakhage, having studied
with Cage, would have acknowledged, though to a degree he seemed to
reject Cage's aesthetics (or at least Cage's aesthetic philosophy,
which I don't think Cage himself completely accepted). But as the most
significant artists of the 20th century in their fields, both Brakhage
and Cage transgressed traditional boundaries and expanded
possibilities for both artists and "friendly experiencers" (to borrow
a phrase from another restructuralist, Anthony Braxton).
This whole question seems rather silly. Would those who complain
about the lack of sound while watching a silent Brakhage film also
complain about the lack of images while listening to a Lachenmann
composition? (There too, there is always something to watch in the
Cagean sense.) There are plenty of artists who focus on ways of
integrating sound and image. Once it's "out in the world," an artwork
can be used in all kinds of ways. I mean, one could say that a Calder
mobile is better experienced in a room where people are ballet
dancing, or that it should be adapted into some kind of mouse trap, or
that one should ideally be receiving oral sex while looking at it. The
uses are endless. What purpose does it serve to speculate about what
Brakhage did *not* do, when he did so much -- more than anyone in the
history of cinema whose work I've seen -- to explore the possibilities
of projected-images-in-sequence. The quality and variety in his work
seem to be sufficient to enjoy and explore for a lifetime.
That said, there certainly are many interesting avenues to explore in
screwing around with "original" works, whether it's adding a mustache
to a famous portrait and retitling it, or sampling a Maceo Parker riff
from an old JB tune. The transformation of preexisting material is
what art is (at least good art). But I don't understand why one would
complain about an artist not conforming his/her selection of materials
to what other artists select.
If we're speculating, how 'bout projecting some Orson Welles films
accompanied by a butoh dancer? Or a video documentary about such an
event, displayed on monitors in an art gallery during a sound-poet's
performance? Hey, this is fun!
grrrr,
Jason
22226
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 9:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sights & Sounds
Thanks to Jess for citing my FrameWorks post on what Brakhage said about
"performances" of his silent films with music.
I think his point was that he couldn't exclude the possibility that
someone might make an interesting new work out of a pairing of music
with his films, so he didn't want to prohibit it; he just wanted to make
clear that such an event was not a Brakhage film.
JP, in selecting "The Art of Fugue" you've selected music much closer to
Brakhage's own aesthetic and personal tastes in music than the rock that
usually accompanies his films at those events where someone chooses to
pair them with music.
Brakhage gave many reasons over the years as to why his films are
silent, but I think the real one, and the one he gave most often, is
that he felt his film rhythms were themselves musical, and that any
external music would dominate and destroy them. The rhythm of a sound
track always dominates the image rhythm, he used to say, and I think he
was right. He wrote an early essay that was published in an old "Film
Culture," "The Silent Sound Sense," arguing that "classic" silent films
were great in the way that events on the screen suggested sound, and
that it was a bad idea to show them with music or sound effects. I agree
with him here too, even though it's historically incorrect; I much
prefer "Sunrise" silent than with the presumably accurate sound track on
most prints. (It's been way too long since I read this essay, so I may
be a bit off.)
About sound dominating picture, try to see Harry Smith's "Early
Abstractions" both with the Beatles sound track he put on it and then,
afterwards, silent. I think it's much much greater silent.
This could be partly a matter of personal taste. I suspect someone
viewing "Lovesong" while listening to Bach is getting at least some of
what Brakhage intended. But it's also a question of habit and focus. I
think most people who prefer sound could learn to love the silence of
Brakhage's films too.
When he was working on his films and seeing the final prints it was
almost invariably with a projector in the room, that is, with projector
noise. He once even speculated that he might have miscalculated by
viewing them that way -- that they were different when there was no
projector noise. Certainly sirens and the like would be very destructive
to the films' aesthetic.
To me, it's really important to learn to love them silent. The "music"
they make is non-physical, non-aural, and different for each viewer, and
appeals to the imagination. "Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
/ Are sweeter...," John Keats wrote (http://www.bartleby.com/126/41.html
), and there's a long tradition in Romanticism and Modernism of
worshipping the idea of silence as representing a purer and more
interior state of consciousness, a removal from the banality of the
physical. Brakhage's films are physical too, in important ways, but the
kind of "virtual" imagery that he creates is, in my view, best
appreciated silent, in his silent films.
He also made, over the years, some sound films that made a really great
use of sound. Blue Moses, Fire of Waters, the first reel of "Scenes From
Under Childhood" among the earlier ones. The DVD has a great later one,
"Crack Glass Eulogy," and there's also "Visions in Meditation #3" and
"Christ Mass Sex Dance" and "Boulder Blues and Pearls and..." among the
best of his later sound films. These were made in collaboration with
musician friends, and the attempt was to have the sound and picture
occupy somewhat separate "spaces" for the viewer.
Fred
22227
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 9:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
Sorry, but I missed the humor in Sutpen's post. "Tropical hellhole" is
such a stereotypical (and offensive) cliché that I took it as seriously
offensive rather than a joke. Agreeing with Saul, I would have loved to
explore Brazil's favelas, for example, but worried a bit about safety so
I didn't. I would not ever call them "hellholes," and from my limited
glimpses they seemed fascinating. As the context of the discussion
Sutpen was responding to referred to searches in Rio de Janeiro and São
Paulo, it seemed to me that it was not unreasonable to read his
"hellhole" as a characterization of those cities. Humor is hard to get
across through email; a little (j/k) ("just kidding") might be added
when appropriate. I also didn't read Gabe's reply as humorous, but as a
gentle disagreement, so perhaps my reading skills are way off.
Fred Camper
22228
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
An interesting essay on this issue:
http://www.horschamp.qc.ca/new_offscreen/silent_legacy.html
includes this Brakhage quote:
"The more informed I became with aesthetics of sound, the less I began
to feel any need for an audio accompaniment to the visuals I was
making… The more silently-oriented my creative philosophies have
become, the more inspired-by-music have my photographic aesthetics and
my actual editing orders become, both engendering a coming-into-being
of the physiological relationship between seeing and hearing in the
making of a work of art in film."
22229
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:31pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Keser" wrote:
"But it's something of a fantasy to suppose that a movie can be
watched in soundless conditions. When no soundtrack of any kind is
provided, then the ambient sound of the environment necessarily
takes over as the soundtrack...there's always the random coughs,
snuffles, chair-creaks, and what-have-you that then become the
uncontrollable aural environment for the film."
John Cage gave a series of silent piano recitals in the early 1950s
by working from a score consisting entirely of rests. He scanned the
page from top to bottom and turned to the next page so the only
sounds were the rustling of the pages and the ambient sounds of the
auditorium (which sometimes included embarassed titters and boos from
the audience.)
In Brakhage's case the soundtrack of the screning provided by the
ambient sound of the venue may complement the picture in unforeseen
ways that add to or detract from from it, but a musical accompaniment
(which is what J-P was originally talking about) adds an affective
layer that Brakhage apparently wanted to avoid,
Richard
22230
From: Peter Henne
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
I'm inclined to think the belief that moving images compel a need for synchronized sound is a prejudice of our noisy, urban times. After hearing several live
and pre-recorded pieces over the years synched to Dreyer's "Passion of Joan of Arc," I've given up matching any music to the film. All of them either drag
the film down into some kind of litany of symbols, or at best feed the conditioned desire we all have to fill up our movie time with noise, jabber, etc. If I
am watching the Criterion DVD, I select the silent version and adjust my expectations regarding aural space to be filled. I realize that Dreyer did intend a
score, but given the presently known options it works best without sound. About ten minutes in, you have started to put all of your attention on the images
and you forget the expectation for music. Why should sound have to somehow carry a film? The fact that it is initially bothersome to watch a film without
sound, yet engaging once you drop the desire to hear
something, should only raise questions about ingrained viewing habits. I would also encourage members to go back to their "Notes on Cinematography" and
re-read Bresson's entries regarding sound in film, in particular his disdain for its excessive degree.
Peter Henne
Robert Keser wrote:
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > It seems to be a historic fact, that Stan Brakhage was
completely
> opposed to
> > any sort of music and sound during his silent films. Hence, they
> should only
> > be watched silent.
But it's something of a fantasy to believe in a soundless film. When
no soundtrack is provided, then the ambient sound in the environment
takes over as the soundtrack, for better or ill.
--Robert Keser
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22231
From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:17pm
Subject: Re: Brazil (OT) (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
Agreeing with Saul, I would have loved to
> explore Brazil's favelas, for example, but worried a bit about
safety so
> I didn't. I would not ever call them "hellholes," and from my
limited
> glimpses they seemed fascinating.
You wouldn't live long in a Rio favela, but Castela Encantada in
Fortaleza is a wonderful, albeit very poor, place where I spent a lot
of time and have many friends. Our entree was the saintly Catherine
Benamou, who had lived among the jangadeiros of Castela Encantada,
helping them mend their roofs and bury their dead. Dona Catherine is
still seen as a patroness, a friend and a member of the community by
those people, some of the nicest I met while I was in Brazil, or
anywhere else for that matter.
22232
From: Craig Keller
Date: Thu Feb 3, 2005 11:54pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
On Thursday, February 3, 2005, at 11:46 PM, Peter Henne wrote:
> I'm inclined to think the belief that moving images compel a need for
> synchronized sound is a prejudice of our noisy, urban times. After
> hearing several live and pre-recorded pieces over the years synched to
> Dreyer's "Passion of Joan of Arc," I've given up matching any music to
> the film. All of them either drag the film down into some kind of
> litany of symbols, or at best feed the conditioned desire we all have
> to fill up our movie time with noise, jabber, etc. If I am watching
> the Criterion DVD, I select the silent version and adjust my
> expectations regarding aural space to be filled. I realize that Dreyer
> did intend a score, but given the presently known options it works
> best without sound. About ten minutes in, you have started to put all
> of your attention on the images and you forget the expectation for
> music.
I agree completely. And whenever a director is said to have "intended
a soundtrack," the original soundtrack almost without fail turns out to
be nondistinctive syrupy orchestral gush -- which calls into question
the fact whether this was ever intended. Music hardly wells up over
any of the later Dreyer sound features, so I can't imagine why there
would be truth behind his intentions for 'La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc'
to have a score -- unless that score was something akin, to, say
several Bach violin partitas. Having said that, I also agree with Fred
that for the most part, the rhythms inside of the frames and the meter
of the montage stand in for the musicality of many silent works -- but
in my opinion, it's not so much that -any- soundtrack would rupture the
visual cadence, but that the most common brand of scoring
contemporaneous to the period probably -would-. Most of the contest
winners for the TCM scoring event (which has a new reality show
charting the competition -- yuck) have in the past aped The Silent
Score Tradition, which is really too bad. Donald Sosin (about whom
I've been having an offline discussion with Kevin Lee) strikes me as
yet another example of un-inspiration; I find his work obvious,
sentimental, and extremely over-noted -- two seconds of seeing what he
came up with for 'A Story of Floating Weeds,' and I went right back to
the DVD's default choice of complete silence. Same with the score for
the new Kino release of Lang's 'Woman in the Moon' -- with the volume
off, however, the viewer is in for one of -the- most rapturous
motion-picture experiences s/he'll have all year, without a doubt.
One pleasant surprise I had with a "new" silent score so far in 2005,
however: the Arthur Barrow accompaniment to Keaton/Sedgwick's 'The
Cameraman,' found on the recent TCM Archives "Buster Keaton Collection"
release. The arrangement is quite varied in both instrumentation and
tone, and never creeps into caterwauling or the realm of over-robust
orchestration.
craig.
22233
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:01am
Subject: erratum - Soundtrack etc.
On Friday, February 4, 2005, at 12:54 AM, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> One pleasant surprise I had with a "new" silent score so far in 2005,
> however: the Arthur Barrow accompaniment to Keaton/Sedgwick's 'The
> Cameraman,'
err, I meant Arthur BarNow.
craig.
22234
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:11am
Subject: Ozu silents
Jean-Pierre Leaud's character in IRMA VEP says:
"I like silence in silence movies."
I agree with him. Ozu's silents have been showing in Chicago
with accompaniment by the talented David Drazin. But I would
much rather miss his piano skills and see the films in total
silence, which is how I saw them about six years ago in Spain.
Consequently, there would have to be a no popcorn policy.
Without popcorn and without music, would people come? That's
the trouble. Ozu's films are for the studious -- why ruin the pace
and mood with music that obviously does not belong to them?
What's the pleasure in it, guys? What am I missing?
Gabe
22235
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:14am
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Peter Henne wrote:
> After hearing several live and pre-recorded pieces over the years
synched to Dreyer's "Passion of Joan of Arc," I've given up matching
any music to the film. All of them either drag the film down into
some kind of litany of symbols, or at best feed the conditioned
desire we all have to fill up our movie time with noise, jabber, etc.
Amen to that; I watched "The Passion of Joan of Arc" for the first
time last week -- without sound -- and, afterwards, tried to play it
with the disc's optional score. I simply couldn't do it -- I couldn't
get through five minute's worth. The music contaminates the imagery.
[No doubt there are countless other examples of this contamination
out there, too, but how does one know when to watch a silent film
with sound and when to watch without it?]
22236
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:24am
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
>
> Jean-Pierre Leaud's character in IRMA VEP says:
> "I like silence in silence movies."
And he also complained about incorrect aspect ratios in 'Masculine
Feminine.' Were I unable to separate the man from the characters he
plays (and it's an iffy thing with Léaud to begin with), he'd still be
my favorite actor.
> Consequently, there would have to be a no popcorn policy.
>
> Without popcorn and without music, would people come?
> What's the pleasure in it, guys? What am I missing?
>
> Gabe
You're not missing anything. And with no accompaniment, and no
popcorn, anyone of the sort who would show up to a screening of a
silent film to begin with would still show up. The little lies about
"take the tiny things away, like popcorn, and you'll lose your public"
is fat-headed sales-rep bullshit-whimsy that resounds through the
culture and our history like scientific truth, and keeps everything
static. NO-ONE, not even the most middle-brow of spectators, comes out
of a piano-accompanied silent screening saying, "Oh, the film was good,
but the music -made- it!"
Tirez sur les pianistes,
craig.
22237
From: Craig Keller
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:25am
Subject: Re: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
On Friday, February 4, 2005, at 01:14 AM, Matthew Clayfield wrote:
>
> Amen to that; I watched "The Passion of Joan of Arc" for the first
> time last week -- without sound -- and, afterwards, tried to play it
> with the disc's optional score. I simply couldn't do it -- I couldn't
> get through five minute's worth.
You were right to retch. The sad truth is...
the Einhorn "Voices of Light" score/opera...
...is -shit-.
craig.
22238
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:39am
Subject: Re: Spoilers
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> Now to tackle the challenge of reviewing for next week's newspaper
> MILLION DOLLAR BABY...
And for the record, Adrian, I thought you handled the spoiler issue
quite well...!
22239
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 6:55am
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> Donald Sosin (about whom I've been having an offline discussion
> with Kevin Lee) strikes me as yet another example of un-inspiration;
> I find his work obvious, sentimental, and extremely over-noted --
> two seconds of seeing what he came up with for 'A Story of Floating
> Weeds,' and I went right back to the DVD's default choice of
> complete silence.
Is silence really the default? The score seems to be turned on in the
background of Richie's commentary track. ;~}
The thing is -- we more or less know the _type_ of scores the Ozu
films actually had. The Matsuda group has made benshi narration (plus
score) videos of some of Ozu's (and others') silent films -- and they
have historic and artistic continuity with the original presentations.
Moreover, we know what the music was like in the earliest surviving
Japanese sound films. I think it is safe to assume that Ozu's silents
(especially his comedies) would have had music not terribly different
from that used in his late films (just a bit more old-fashioned). In
other words, any score for an Ozu silent needs to MOSTLY have a
neutral, wall-paperish quality. Sosin's composition (whatever its
virtues) simply has nothing to do with Ozu's film. The same was true
with the well-played accompaniments provided when the Harvard Film
Archive showed the Ozu retrospective. However musical these may have
been -- they were completely unidiomatic.
FWIW -- Gershwin's light piano works, some of Stravinsky's lighter
works and some of Shostakovich's jazzy early light works all work --
more or less -- with Ozu silents.
MEK
22240
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:39am
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
> > Consequently, there would have to be a no popcorn policy.
> > Without popcorn and without music, would people come?
> with no accompaniment, and no
> popcorn, anyone of the sort who would show up to a screening of a
> silent film to begin with would still show up.
Popcorn sales are presumably lucrative, though.
(Popcornless) MoMA used to have one accompanied and one unaccompanied screening of a silent film, a good idea except that in fact the incessant geriatric
coughing and other audience noise made the "silent" screenings more unbearable than the ones sabotaged by their then-regular pianist.
One could perhaps resort to earplugs; theaters might consider dispensing them along with the pianism and popcorn. Are there any effective brands? I used to
use "Boules Quies" to drown out street noise at night but I don't know if they would stand up to the 88 keys.
22241
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:55am
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
> Without popcorn and without music, would people come? That's
> the trouble. Ozu's films are for the studious -- why ruin the pace
> and mood with music that obviously does not belong to them?
Well, I would say that Ozu's silents (like his sound films) are
(mainly) NOT for the studious -- but rather were made for audiences to
"enjoy". And inappropriately over-dramatic music hinders enjoyment
(my enjoyment, at any rate). ;~}
No popcorn at the HFA -- and still good sized crowds at most of the
Ozu films. (But a couple sitting near us smuggled in their supper --
and the sight and smell did not enhance our movie-going experience).
MEK
22242
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:25am
Subject: Ozu silent scores (was: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr." wrote:
> The thing is -- we more or less know the _type_ of scores the Ozu
> films actually had.
> Sosin's composition (whatever its
> virtues) simply has nothing to do with Ozu's film.
I was wondering about this. Sosin says he composed his Schumann pastiche (I only listened to a bit of it) in consideration of Ozu's love of Schumann. He
doesn't actually say, as far as I recall, that Schumann piano music (or its like) was ever used for Ozu's films, but some online reviewers, praising the
score, seem to have reached that conclusion...?
22243
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 8:40am
Subject: Ozu silent scores (was: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE...)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
> I was wondering about this. Sosin says he composed his Schumann
> pastiche (I only listened to a bit of it) in consideration of
> Ozu's love of Schumann. He doesn't actually say, as far as I recall,
> that Schumann piano music (or its like) was ever used for Ozu's films,
> but some online reviewers, praising the score, seem to have reached
> that conclusion...?
It's irrelevant whether or not Ozu liked Schumann's "Traumerei" (this
is what one of Ozu's score writers said -- not that Ozu liked Schumann
in general). This is not the type of music he chose to use in his
films -- and it is unlikely that his silent films would have used much
classical music of this type. I suspect that Stephen Foster would
(far) more likely have been featured than Schumann. ("Old Black Joe"
is used to devastating effect at the end of "Only Son" -- I find it
impossible to believe that, in this case, Ozu and his composer did not
know the significance of this particular Foster song).
MEK
22244
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:11am
Subject: Re: Ambersons cans in Brazil
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
> wrote:
>
> many students never knew how close their country was to a
> > National Theatre in the New Deal.> >
> > Tony Williams
>
> "The history
> recounted in Cradle (I just wish Welles had been able to make his
> version) belongs to a lost continent called America. I miss it,
and I
> don't think we're ever going to see it again. No doubt the values
it
> once stood for will continue to spring up in other parts of the
world
> when the cradle of liberty has become its grave. I hope I'm wrong
> about that part, but what I'm seeing is not a throwback to the
Nixon
> years - it's something much, much worse. "
The class was silent after the screening and did not respond to an
invitation for questions and comments. I'm putting this down to awe
and amazement - for the moment. The evening concluded with an
extract from Welles's speech to the Academy at the AFI Life
Achievement event where he shows some footage from THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE WIND. I directed the class to a shot of the guests at the
ceremony, two of whom were glowering at Orson and certainly not
joining in the applause. They didn't think he deserved the Award and
certainly got the point concerning his references to "conglomerates"
and "supermarkets."
However, on an historical level, isn't this period another episode
in America's reactionary swing of the pendulum documented in the
historical fiction of Gore Vidal such as the aftermath of the Palmer
Red Raids and Cold war hysteria. This also may pass - unless I'm
mistaken and see some FBI men in the audience (who were also present
when Cuba's Santiago Alvarez was a guest during a student film
festival here in 1985.
Tony Williams
22245
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:21am
Subject: Re: It All Started When His Mother Washed His Balls
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> "Scarface (1932) is an exception to this crass and sweeping
> generalization, thanks to Paul Muni's over-the-top performance in
> the title role, along with plenty of pre-Code babosity from Ann
> Dvorak and Karen Morley."
>
> Hm. And Howard Hawks didn't have anything to do with the film, I
> suppose.
No, I don't suppose he did otherwise Marty would have had to
reveal who the real auteur was, not a rich, anti-semitic Texan kid
dabbling in movies whose fetishistic attraction to planes and Jane
Russell's breasts represent a low point in Hollywood cinema.
We must also remember that directors were influenced by
expressionist techniques at the time such as John Ford. Hawks's
employment of Lee Garmes's cinematography reflected one contemporary
stylistic influence. We must also remember Robin Wood's defintion of
SCARFACE as a comedy, one Hawks agreed with.
Finally, today's letters page of the World Socialist Review Web
Site has an interesting contribution by a French film critic.
Tony Williams
22246
From: Yoel Meranda
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:49am
Subject: He shoots, he scores (ess-ee) (waRe: How does one pronounce "auteur?"
i'll try to help with Fatih Akin, whose film I haven't seen yet:
"faah - tich" rhymes with emmerich.
the last name "ah - kin" rhymes with drunken.
and by the way, Akin is not the correct spelling of the name. the "i"
has to be bare, without the point on the top. unfortunately my keyboard doesn't have the
exact letter and even if it did, i'm not sure yahoo groups would be able to show.
hope it helps,
yoel
22247
From: programming
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:56am
Subject: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
Apologies to those not in Chicago and for the organizational self-promotion
(but if Bruce makes it to your town, definitely go! He'll also be at the
Media City festival in Windsor, Ontario next week [Mike G.!] and very soon
at the Mass Art Film Society in Boston)
*******************************************
Tonight at the University of Chicago
Saturday at Chicago Filmmakers
Two Different Shows!!
Not to be missed!!
"...the three [works] that I've seen live are wonders." (Fred Camper, from
his Critic's Choice in this week's Reader)
************************************************************************
Chicago Filmmakers and the Experimental Film Club at the University of
Chicago Present
New York Experimental Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person!
Two Programs of Live Projector Performances
Friday and Saturday, February 4 and 5
Filmmaker Bruce McClure does some unbelievable things with projectors.
Using small perforated metal plates, film loops, specially modified
projectors (up to four at a time), and other tinkered bits, McClure creates
abstracted Rorschachs of light and dark, Rothko-like patterns and textures,
swirling and pulsing shapes and shadows, and other visual phantasmagoria
which will please the eye and boggle the brain. His work has been screened
at the Whitney Biennial, the London Film Festival, the Walter Reade Theater
at Lincoln Center, the Ann Arbor Film Festival, and many other venues and
festivals around the U.S. and Europe.
Program 1
Friday, February 4 - 8:00 pm at the Film Studies Center (University of
Chicago), Cobb Hall, Room 307, 5811 S. Ellis Ave.
Hollywood Backstage and More - Projector Performances by Bruce McClure
Hollywood Backstage (2004, approx. 16 mins.) "Four projectors all fitted
with flicker loops and one projector bi-packed with a length chosen from my
collection of street finds starring Erv Westmore make-up artist." (BM)
Cut (2003, approx. 12 mins.) Two projector work with one 16mm
black-and-white film print, one length of 16mm clear leader, red gel,
optical sound modified with equalizer and digital delay.
Crossfades (2003, approx. 14 mins.) 4 projector work.
Crosscut Jack (2004, approx 14 mins.) 3 projector work
Admission: free
*************************************************************
Program 2
Saturday, February 5 - 8:00 pm at Chicago Filmmakers, 5243 N. Clark St.
Breaking the Frame Series
Christmas Tree Stand and More - Projector Performances by Bruce McClure
Highlighting the program is McClure's newest work, Christmas Tree Stand -
Part 1 (2004 approx. 20 mins.), a stunning new two-projector performance
which utilizes a black screen. Two projectors each fitted with a perforated
metal plate (punched with 3/16" diameter 1/4" diameter hole), flicker loops.
.
Selections from the Crib and Sift series:
Circle Jerks (2002, approx. 14 mins.) Four 16mm film prints in four
projectors, variable transformers, and colored gels, sound.
Presipio (2003, approx. 14 mins.) Four 16mm film prints in four projectors
fitted with horizontal and vertical brass plates, black-and-white, silent.
Chiodo (2003, approx. 14 mins.) Four 16mm film prints in four projectors
fitted with horizontal and vertical brass plates, back-and-white, silent.
"In his recent four-projector series titled 'Crib and Sift (2002-2004),
McClure dispenses with the direct use of color, choosing instead on length
of clear leader sprayed with black ink. From the hand-painted original
McClure made four prints, two on single-perforated stock and two on
double-perforated, allowing him to identify four different orientations for
inserting the films in the projector. For some of the works, McClure has
retrofitted four projectors with brass plates installed in the gates,
masking one half of each individual image. Projected together, they are
reassembled on the screen as superimposed quadrants. The works the comprise
'Crib and Sift' represent various combinations of the print orientation
(which McClure calls 'sifting'), and disctinct ways of focusing the
projector on the gates, the inserts, or the film itself ('cribbing').
In the 'Crib and Sift' series, McClure continuously traverses the border
between order and chaos. He establishes a set of clear parameters only to
introduce elements of inescapable variation - the framing is alsways a
little different, the films cannot be started at exactly the same time, each
projector runs at a slightly variable speed - so that four identical copies
are projected in such a way that their outcome is once again unpredictable.
Relinquishing the projectionist's control of the screening situation, the
artist initiates a noisy onslaught on the viewer's perception." (Henriette
Huldisch, Whitney Museuem of American Art)
Admission: $7.00
22248
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:07am
Subject: New York, New York on DVD
Just a word of warning to those of you with any expectations about
this new "special edition" DVD of "New York, New York." The section
of the single-disc set devoted to alternate takes and deleted scenes
is, in fact, a REDUCED version of the same material put out on the
laser disc box set from the 1990s. While Amazon lists 25 minutes of
deleted material for the disc, I counted only about 19 minutes. The
laser disc, by contrast, has well over an hour's worth of deleted
material. In general, the DVD extras here are a reduction of
everything from the old laser: storyboards, research material,
production stills, etc. The shooting script as well as a brief
interview with Scorsese and Liza M., both on the laser, are also
missing from the DVD. The commentary, by M.S. and Carrie Rickey, is
a leftover from the laser. What the film needed was a 2-disc
treatment but MGM/UA clearly had no faith in the product.
I don't know if anyone in the group can answer this question: The
soundtrack to the "Happy Endings" number has always (on film, video)
looked slightly out of sync with the image. To my eyes and ears, it
looks like Liza and everyone else in the number was performing on the
set to a different track than the one used in the final version of
the film. In particular, Liza's voice on the soundtrack will be
belting while her face and body will be performing in a more muted
(or at least sightly unrelated) physical manner: I'm thinking
particularly of the beginning of the number while she's still an
usherette. Was there a problem with the soundtrack to this number
for the 1981 reissue in which the only version available was one that
didn't quite fit the image? Or is this supposed to be some kind of
weird, misplaced distanciation effect?
22249
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:16am
Subject: Film School Paranoia? (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
wrote:
>
> However, on an historical level, isn't this period another episode
> in America's reactionary swing of the pendulum documented in the
> historical fiction of Gore Vidal such as the aftermath of the
Palmer
> Red Raids and Cold war hysteria.
Vidal seems to think so - he's predicting that Bush will be run out
of town on a rail before finishing his second term.
Sylvie Pierre told me an anecdote about her first lecture at some
venue in Rio: Fresh from post-68 France, she was showing two
Eisenstein films, and before she could speak at the break, the
organizer whispered in her ear that the secret police were in the
audience. I think the second part of the night's program - October -
was then cancelled.
A friend who teaches film told me that recently she isn't always sure
who she's lecturing to - meaning that she's no longer confident that
her large lecture classes don't contain young neocons or born-agains
who just aren't saying anything for the moment. And we've all heard
about how teachers all over the country are suddenly afraid to bring
up Darwin in class. Staying on-topic, I wonder if others here who
teach film are feeling the chill. I don't teach, so I have no way of
knowing.
22250
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:22am
Subject: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming
wrote:
> Filmmaker Bruce McClure does some unbelievable things with
projectors.
Sounds great! I met a guy at a party in NY in the late 70s who worked
w. projectors and told me he was worried about being known as "the
light beam guy." Would that have been McClure or a predecessor? His
point was a very 70s concern about whether his work wasn't dependent
on the institutional context within which the beams were projected
for its meaning.
22251
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:21am
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
> Well, I would say that Ozu's silents (like his sound films) are
> (mainly) NOT for the studious -- but rather were made for audiences to
> "enjoy". And inappropriately over-dramatic music hinders enjoyment
> (my enjoyment, at any rate). ;~}
*****
I would go so far as to say that *any* music hinders my enjoyment of a
silent film to one degree or another. Even the best scores tend to set
up a predetermined emotional state that could well be contrary to the
artist's intentions; practically dictating how you're supposed to
respond to the images at all moments. The worst, most mediocre scores
can effectively ruin the experience completely by locking you into
something that either distracts or confuses; moreso than any plague of
ambient noise ever could (I never let other people's noise bother me).
Tom Sutpen
22252
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:22am
Subject: Re: New York, New York on DVD
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> I don't know if anyone in the group can answer this
> question: The
> soundtrack to the "Happy Endings" number has always
> (on film, video)
> looked slightly out of sync with the image. To my
> eyes and ears, it
> looks like Liza and everyone else in the number was
> performing on the
> set to a different track than the one used in the
> final version of
> the film. In particular, Liza's voice on the
> soundtrack will be
> belting while her face and body will be performing
> in a more muted
> (or at least sightly unrelated) physical manner:
> I'm thinking
> particularly of the beginning of the number while
> she's still an
> usherette. Was there a problem with the soundtrack
> to this number
> for the 1981 reissue in which the only version
> available was one that
> didn't quite fit the image? Or is this supposed to
> be some kind of
> weird, misplaced distanciation effect?
>
>
>
>
Some kind of weird, misplaced distanciation effect
nails it. This is the ay the number always was. Sorry
to hear they've skimped on the DVD.
"Happy Endings" was the very first thing shot for the
movie. It all went so well that everybody thought the
rest of the shoot would be a breeze. Famous last
words. Trouble offscreen and on 24/7 with everybody
breaking up with their respective spouses and Marty
and Liza embarking on a whirlwind affair -- even while
she was stepping out on Jack Haley Jr. with
Barishnikov.
Great movie and a very vivid demosntration of the act
thatLiza had more than "Cabaret" in her.
But not much more as this was her last real hurrah as
a musical comedy performer instead of a famous barely
walking train wreck.
__________________________________________________
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22253
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:52am
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
> I remember showing "The Dante Quartet" to a film class last year,
> all to the unwelcome accompaniment of a series of fire engines
> wailing down the street outside (which intruded on half the running
> time of the film).
Yes but that might be just as "unwelcome" if you were reading Dante or
a Beethoven Quartet was being played. ?
I've seen the so called "Text Of Light Band" improvise with various
Brakhage films - 'The Text Of Light' among others, just doesn't work.
-Sam
22254
From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:54am
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
>
> One could perhaps resort to earplugs; theaters might consider
dispensing them along with the pianism and popcorn.
Also handy for blotting out the fire engines with Brakhage movies!
--Robert Keser
22255
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:02pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
> Music hardly wells up over
> any of the later Dreyer sound features, so I can't imagine why there
> would be truth behind his intentions for 'La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc'
> to have a score -- unless that score was something akin, to, say
> several Bach violin partitas.
Well there was a version of Dreyer's "Jeanne d'Arc" in release in the
seventies that had Baroque music on the track - Vivaldi, I don't
remember who else (Corelli ?). Pretty bad. Vivaldi & Bach are not
15th Century music ! Better Avro Part...... !
-Sam
22256
From: programming
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
On 2/4/05 11:22 AM, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming
> wrote:
>> > Filmmaker Bruce McClure does some unbelievable things with
> projectors.
>
> Sounds great! I met a guy at a party in NY in the late 70s who worked
> w. projectors and told me he was worried about being known as "the
> light beam guy." Would that have been McClure or a predecessor? His
> point was a very 70s concern about whether his work wasn't dependent
> on the institutional context within which the beams were projected
> for its meaning.
>
>
Wouldn't have been Bruce you met - he hasn't been doing projector works that
long.
Patrick
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
22257
From: Travis Miles
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Sights & Sounds
Fred,
I have seen "Scenes from Under Childhood" three times (Anthology, NY
Film-makers' Coop and University of Colorado prints), and it was never shown
with sound on the first reel. Did he withdraw the sound reels at some point,
or did all the projectionists ignore their instructions? I know that
"Scenes" is somewhat of a tangling with Olivier Messiaen, and I have often
wanted to combine the two to see what he meant. Was the original sound
Messiaen?
My one consolation is that when Sonic Youth accompanied this very reel at a
Brakhage memorial concert, they performed something not too dissimilar in
mood from the Chronochromies.
My favorite sound Brakhages are "I...Dreaming" and "Passage Through: A
Ritual," with its amazing Couperin by way of Corner soundtrack.
T
>
> He also made, over the years, some sound films that made a really great
> use of sound. Blue Moses, Fire of Waters, the first reel of "Scenes From
> Under Childhood" among the earlier ones. The DVD has a great later one,
> "Crack Glass Eulogy," and there's also "Visions in Meditation #3" and
> "Christ Mass Sex Dance" and "Boulder Blues and Pearls and..." among the
> best of his later sound films. These were made in collaboration with
> musician friends, and the attempt was to have the sound and picture
> occupy somewhat separate "spaces" for the viewer.
22258
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:17pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
> The thing is -- we more or less know the _type_ of scores the Ozu
> films actually had. The Matsuda group has made benshi narration (plus
> score) videos of some of Ozu's (and others') silent films -- and they
> have historic and artistic continuity with the original presentations.
I saw Mizoguchi's "Taki no Shiraito" in Nov on a print with Benshi narration,
very glad I saw (heard) it but must even so confesss I'd like to see this
film again - uh - without, you know ?
(I also must confess I like rather like"October" with the 1967 Shostakovitch
score - although it's a bit too fast @ 24fps; --even if some silents from
that late work OK at 24..)
-Sam
22259
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:20pm
Subject: Re: Sound in Brakhage (was: Sights & Sounds)
Travis,
The first reel of "Scenes From Under Childhood" had sounds that Brakhage
made, "abstract" slowed down moanings that I imagine were his stab at
fetal-memory sounds, or something like that. When he decided that the
rest of the film would be silent, he also decided to circulate a silent
version of the first reel but to keep the sound version available also.
When all four sections are shown together I certainly think that the
first reel should be shown silent. I see that in the current Coop
catalogues only the sound versions are listed, so I'm going to inquire
of Marilyn Brakhage about this. Originally Stan's intention was to keep
it available. I don't think the sound had much to do with Messaien; it
was more the editing patterns.
Fred Camper
22260
From: thebradstevens
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:20pm
Subject: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
Does anyone know what the relationship is between the film NEW YORK,
NEW YORK and the novel NEW YORK, NEW YORK, written by Earl Mac Rauch
(who, along with Mardik Martin, is credited as co-screenwriter of the
film)? The novel was published in 1977, as a tie-in with the film,
and would appear to be a novelization. But the story, ending, and
even character names are very different (the central male character
is named Johnny Boyle, whereas in the film he is Jimmy Doyle).
Aside from all that, the novel clearly has literary ambitions way
beyond those of any novelization I'm familiar with. Here's the
opening paragraph:
----------------
Johnny Boyle was dying of shame as he pushed open the heavy door into
the world of jazz. This was when he was thirteen. You've all seen the
movies, the Dick Powell-June Allyson sort of flick where they're
doing somebody's life and the hero is played by a kid actor until he
reaches the age of puberty, at which point Dick Powell steps in as
though it were a natural process of evolution. One minute an unknown
kid and the next minute a star; if you blink twice, you can miss the
transition. Yet audiences seem never to complain of the incongruity
of Dick Powell playing an unknown kid and vice versa. Maybe they're
even amused. These days when everybody seems to know the rules of
motion-picture-making, it's understood that the movie tycoons aren't
going to stand around waiting for the kid to grow up. But what a
great movie it would make if they did just that. Execs might die off,
writers, directors, cameramen. Everybody dies except the kid, and
he's just getting old. Finally, at the end of his life, they release
the movie, and it's so authentic. Maybe one scene took five years to
shoot, waiting for the aging process. But then what happens is the
kid doesn't make it as a star at any age. He's a broken old man, and
his only picture now loses a bundle. The execs who are left turn to
each other in the screening room and say, "We should have listened to
Father and used Dick Powell."
------------------------
Three possibilities occur to me:
1- That Earl Mac Rauch wrote the novel, but it wasn't published.
Martin Scorsese happened to read it in manuscript form, and decided
to make a film of it. The original novel then saw the light of day as
a tie-in ediiton with the film.
2- That Mac Rauch was hired to write the screenplay, but decided to
write the initial draft in novel form (as Graham Greene did with THE
THIRD MAN).
3- That Mac Rauch wrote the first draft of a screenplay. That this
draft was heavily rewritten by Mardik Martin. That Mac Rauch then
wrote a novelization based on his original draft.
Incidentally, Monte Hellman told me that Mac Rauch was a protege of
Terence Malick. He did a lot of uncredited writing on Hellman's
COCKFIGHTER (the porch scene, for example).
22261
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:25pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- thebradstevens wrote:
>
> 3- That Mac Rauch wrote the first draft of a
> screenplay. That this
> draft was heavily rewritten by Mardik Martin. That
> Mac Rauch then
> wrote a novelization based on his original draft.
>
That's it!
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
22262
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
Thanks to Patrick for referring to my Critic's Choice on McClure, the
"full" text of which (it's short, hence "full" rather than full) is at
http://onfilm.chicagoreader.com/movies/critic.html -- only for the next
week.
Bill, projector performances began in earnest in the late 60s, when a
typical show was hippy-dippy-trippy, with flashing strobe lights and
multiple projectors and slide projectors and in the wilder versions a
naked woman walking arounnd holding a candle. The "genre" turned dryer
and more "structural" in the 1970s, Anthony McCall's famous "Line
Describing a Cone" being a prime example.
McClure's work is really terrific, very "classical" in a way. Each piece
has a relatively fixed form with calculated and randomized variations,
but the shapes on the screen both refer to the nature of film projection
and make metaphors for things or emotions in the world. One of the two
pieces I commented on, "Presepe," ("Presipio" in the offiical program,
which is a mistake) is named after the Italain word for Nativity scenes,
and the empty center was in part inspired by such scenes, McClure says.
You wouldn't guess that, but the dark center does have real suggstive power.
I'd strongly recommend his work to all, and especially to those who are
addicted to that tiny portion of cinema devoted to maoving pictures of
people walking around and talking in lip sync as part of a story shot
with a union crew and money from SKG or Time Warner or Mickey Mouse.
Fred Camper
22263
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:29pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> I saw Mizoguchi's "Taki no Shiraito" in Nov on a print with Benshi
narration,
> very glad I saw (heard) it but must even so confesss I'd like to see
this
> film again - uh - without, you know ?
Actually, when watching the benshi narrated version, one finds out
things about the plot of this film that one does not find out when one
just watches the ancient subtitled regular version (which I had seen
previously). Given the gruesomeness of what one finds out -- I wonder
if I didn't prefer my previous state of ignorance. ;~}
The lady who narrated this hyere in Boston was a treasure though.
> (I also must confess I like rather like"October" with the 1967
Shostakovitch
> score - although it's a bit too fast @ 24fps; --even if some silents
from
> that late work OK at 24..)
Shostakovich is my favorite 20th century composer -- but I really hope
that I can see the Eisenstein films with their original
(non-Shostakovich) soundtracks some day (especially Potemkin). By the
same token, I really want to see the Kozintsev/Trauberg films (such as
"New Babylon") WITH the original Shostakovich score. (I will never
forgive Facets for its inauthentic -- and expensive -- video of "New
Babylon" -- or its even more execrable vidoe of Kozintsev's "King Lear").
MEK
22264
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:31pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what the relationship is between the film NEW
YORK,
> NEW YORK and the novel NEW YORK, NEW YORK, written by Earl Mac
Rauch
> (who, along with Mardik Martin, is credited as co-screenwriter of
the
> film)?
I'm pretty sure it's a novelization. Earl Mac Rauch is/was a very
offbeat screenwriter. He wrote the screenplay for THE ADVENTURES OF
BUCKAROO BANZAI IN THE EIGHTH DIMENSION.
Another novelization where the author also wrote the script: BLOODY
MAMA by Robert Thom. Like Mac Rauch, Thom (aka Mr. Millie Perkins)
was a hip novelist (and poet), and his novelization is more ambitious
than the film.
Sometimes novelizations do take on a life of their own. "Ellery
Queen" was hired to write the n. of A STUDY IN TERROR (Holmes vs.
Jack the Ripper) and contrived a present-day frame story with a new
solution to the mystery, not reflected in the film.
I found in a Kentucky used book store a novelization of FOUR DEVILS,
to which the author had attached an epigraph from Nietzsche.
Paul Monette earned money by doing a couple of high-profile
novelizations, but they weren't anything special - just better
written than usual.
The novelization of HATARI! doesn't contain the goat-milking gag.
22265
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:33pm
Subject: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
The "genre" turned dryer
> and more "structural" in the 1970s, Anthony McCall's famous "Line
> Describing a Cone" being a prime example.
>
That's who I met. Is he still doing projector works?
22266
From: Fred Camper
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
hotlove666 wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
>
Anthony McCall's famous "Line
>>Describing a Cone" b
>
> That's who I met. Is he still doing projector works?
Not that I know of. He made some other works after "Line Describing a
Cone," then did a lot of commercial work I believe (Web design? I can't
remember), but lately I've heard he has a new film.
Fred Camper
22267
From: Travis Miles
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: For Chicagoans - NY Filmmaker Bruce McClure in Person tonight and Sat.
Yes, he had piece in the last Whitney Biennial, although that was an earlier
work somewhat revamped. By the way, anybody who's spent an hour in and
around "Line Describing a Cone" with a bunch of five year olds could hardly
call it dry. One of the most stunning sculptures I've ever seen and very,
very fun.
T
On 2/4/05 1:33 PM, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
>
> The "genre" turned dryer
>> and more "structural" in the 1970s, Anthony McCall's famous "Line
>> Describing a Cone" being a prime example.
>>
> That's who I met. Is he still doing projector works?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
22268
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 0:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
>
> Shostakovich is my favorite 20th century composer --
> but I really hope
> that I can see the Eisenstein films with their
> original
> (non-Shostakovich) soundtracks some day (especially
> Potemkin).
I'm quite intrigued by the new "Potemkin" with music
by the Pet Shop Boys.
I would venture that it's worthwhile trying new things
with accepted classics, as spectators can judge the
results froman already given context.
Still I LOATHED the Giorgio Moroder "Metropolis."
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22269
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:28pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
> 3- That Mac Rauch wrote the first draft of a screenplay. That this
> draft was heavily rewritten by Mardik Martin. That Mac Rauch then
> wrote a novelization based on his original draft.
I vaguely remember an interview with MacRauch from the '70s in which
he said that once Scorsese began to throw out his script a
novelization became his only way of preserving his original work. Or
words to that effect. Pauline Kael had apparently read this script
and thought it was perfect and that if Scorsese had left it alone it
would have made for a better film. I don't know...
22270
From: thebradstevens
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:45pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
>
> Paul Monette earned money by doing a couple of high-profile
> novelizations, but they weren't anything special - just better
> written than usual.
>
Dennis Etchison, an absolutely brilliant horror novelist/short story
writer, did the novelizations of HALLOWEEN 2 and 3 and VIDEODROME,
all under a pseudonym.
22271
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:59pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
> Sometimes novelizations do take on a life of their own. "Ellery
> Queen" was hired to write the n. of A STUDY IN TERROR (Holmes vs.
> Jack the Ripper) and contrived a present-day frame story with a new
> solution to the mystery, not reflected in the film.
Screenwriter Thomas Rickman ("The White Dawn") wasn't happy with the
way "W.W. And the Dixie Dancekings" came out, so he asked to write
the novelization himself.
At the end of Neal Williams' (pseudonym?) novelization of "Blow Out",
Sally (Nancy Allen) lives.
-Aaron
22272
From: Robert Keser
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Guthartz"
wrote:
> ...This whole question seems rather silly. Would those who complain
> about the lack of sound while watching a silent Brakhage film also
> complain about the lack of images while listening to a Lachenmann
> composition? (There too, there is always something to watch in the
> Cagean sense.) There are plenty of artists who focus on ways of
> integrating sound and image. Once it's "out in the world," an
artwork can be used in all kinds of ways. ... What purpose does it
>serve to speculate about what Brakhage did *not* do, when he did so
>much -- more than anyone in the history of cinema whose work I've
>seen -- to explore the possibilities of projected-images-in-
>sequence. The quality and variety in his work seem to be
>sufficient to enjoy and explore for a lifetime... But I don't
>understand why one would complain about an artist not conforming
>his/her selection of materials to what other artists select.
I'm by no means criticizing Brakhage's artistic achievement
or his freedom to draw mustaches on the arrière-garde. It's
just that this aesthetic of quasi-silence appears to ignore (or
perhaps accept) a surprising randomness, though maybe I'm the
only one surprised.
However, I can't help thinking of the opposite situation: what if
I make a film with no image at all, where the projectionist is
instructed to unscrew the projector's bulb, so that not even a
flicker appears on the screen and the brain's persistence of
vision cannot be engaged. Nevertheless, the film does go through the
projector to deliver a soundtrack. The "viewers" would then
be "free" to look at each other, their feet, out the window,
or close their eyes. As an experiment, it sounds interesting and is
pretty certainly a film, but it seems at least questionable as a
long-term aesthetic.
To put it another way, did John Cage, turning his pages of music in
silence, open doors for other artists or did he close them?
--Robert Keser
22273
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 2:09pm
Subject: Re: Film School Paranoia? (Was: Ambersons cans in Brazil)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>>
> A friend who teaches film told me that recently she isn't always
sure
> who she's lecturing to - meaning that she's no longer confident
that
> her large lecture classes don't contain young neocons or born-
agains
> who just aren't saying anything for the moment. And we've all heard
> about how teachers all over the country are suddenly afraid to
bring
> up Darwin in class. Staying on-topic, I wonder if others here who
> teach film are feeling the chill. I don't teach, so I have no way
of
> knowing.
I teach in Manhattan at a college (Hunter) with a student body of
essentially middle and working class origin. (If they were otherwise,
they'd be studying film at NYU or Columbia.) Some of them are not
just out of high school but have returned to college in their late
twenties or early thirties (and sometimes later)so that their ties to
the (possibly conservative) values of their family are not so strong.
Furthermore, many of them are not American but come from Eastern
Europe, Japan, Korea and Israel. Most of them are paying for their
tuition themselves and not relying on Mommy and Daddy or financial
aid. Virtually all of them are feeling the Republican indifference to
the needs of anyone but the wealthy as the Pataki administration
keeps reducing financial aid for them while the City University
system (controlled by a board of Guiliani appointees) jacks up
tuition and cuts aid while giving themselves substantial raises. So
far, I have not encountered any strong right-wing sentiments
expressed in class. My political views are, I think, clear enough to
the students but I do make an attempt to leave a wide area for
students to express their own opinions and political viewpoints.
Nothing frightening has emerged out of the mouth of a student yet and
the atmosphere in my classes after Bush's re-election was almost as
depressed and confused as it was after 9/11. (My first screening
after the election was "The Long, Long Trailer" and that film's
scabrous view of American consumerism hit home on that particular
day.)
Having said this, there are moments when they are more responsive to
overtly political cinema than others and when they apparently cannot
help but be caught up in a tidal wave of right wing patriotism. For
example, when I first showed Robert Kramer's "Starting Place" about
two months after 9/11 the students were incredibly responsive to the
politics of that film since they were beginning to be caught up in a
number of discourses in which U.S. foreign policy was increasingly
being held indirectly accountable for acts of terrorism.
Nevertheless, when I showed the film again not long after the
invasion of Iraq and Bush's declaration that the invasion was a
success, their response was much more cautious and skeptical, as
though they somehow wanted to believe that our foreign interventions
are ultimately for the good and that Kramer was some kind of left-
wing crank. No one stated this overtly but it was very difficult
getting a discussion on that day as the students just did not buy
into the film at that moment.
22274
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:22pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
"Actually, when watching the benshi narrated version, one finds out
things about the plot of this film that one does not find out when one
just watches the ancient subtitled regular version (which I had seen
previously). Given the gruesomeness of what one finds out -- I wonder
if I didn't prefer my previous state of ignorance. ;~}"
Mizoguchi didn't want benshi accompaniment for his silent films and
contrived ways to circumvent it, in part because benshi elaborated
and fabricated plot points. Many benshi were notorious for this
practice. You may have experienced something like that when you saw
TAKI NO SHIRAITO.
By the way, there are three extant versions of the movie. One was an
Occupation-era re-release with a happy ending. The correct version
was not screened outside of Japan for many years (and it's the
longest version.)
Richard
22275
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:33pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
> Actually, when watching the benshi narrated version, one finds out
> things about the plot of this film that one does not find out when one
> just watches the ancient subtitled regular version (which I had seen
> previously). Given the gruesomeness of what one finds out -- I wonder
> if I didn't prefer my previous state of ignorance. ;~}
True of course. Like I said, this was a treat. It was a recording of a famous
benshi narrator but I forget his name (I'm sure someone here will know).
I just want to see it again for the more abstract "Mizoguchi values" :)
-Sam
22276
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:38pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> Mizoguchi didn't want benshi accompaniment for his silent films and
> contrived ways to circumvent it, in part because benshi elaborated
> and fabricated plot points. Many benshi were notorious for this
> practice. You may have experienced something like that when you saw
> TAKI NO SHIRAITO.
Apparently, the Matsuda benshi script simply supplies information from
the original story that is fully consistent with (but more detailed
than) the images themselves.
> By the way, there are three extant versions of the movie. One was an
> Occupation-era re-release with a happy ending. The correct version
> was not screened outside of Japan for many years (and it's the
> longest version.)
Definitely no happy ending for the Matsuda version. I wonder how they
concocted a happy ending for the film -- add footage from something
else? The final imagery is unquestionably bleak.
MEK
22277
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:42pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> True of course. Like I said, this was a treat. It was a recording of
a famous
> benshi narrator but I forget his name (I'm sure someone here will know).
You must have heard the version narrated by Mr. Matsuda (on the
soundtrack) long ago. I got to see it narrated live by the very
charming Ms. Midori Sawato. Much more fun. ;~}
> I just want to see it again for the more abstract "Mizoguchi values" :)
I want to see a really first-rate print (or the closest possible
approxinmation -- since I suspect no such thing exists).
MEK
22278
From: Yoel Meranda
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 3:46pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
Robert Keser wrote:
"As an experiment, it sounds interesting and is pretty certainly a film, but it seems at least
questionable as a long-term aesthetic."
It's certainly NOT a film. It is a musical performance!
What makes cinema cinema is not the fact that there is a film going through the projector.
It is the fact that our eyes see the lights reflected from the screen.
Projecting a black leader from the beginning to the end, with or without sound, would be
cinema, since there is the flicker and the eyes would see some light reflected from the
screen (since black can never be perfect) along with scratches, etc.
Yoel
22279
From:
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:52am
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
I don't think Brakhage was trying to make some sort of philosophical
statement about silence. He was just trying to get people to concentrate on a pure
flow of images, rather than the combination of picture+sound.
I don't think Brakhage was deeply interested in "silence", or that he wanted
the audience to experience "silence", or listen to ambient sounds in the
auditorium, or anything like that. He just wanted them focused purely on his
images.
Nor do I think Brakhage was being experimental or avant-garde about this. He
worked in an era in which lots of pre-1930 narrative silent movies were shown
silent, in which most people's home movies were silent, etc. Most people
except the desperately poor and very rich made silent home movies. Really silent
films were everywhere in the 1950's through the 1980's.
Brakhage DID believe that people experienced the world differently, when
watching purely silent films, than they did with films with sound.
Mike Grost
22280
From:
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:23am
Subject: Happy Waitangi Day!
To celebrate New Zealand's national holiday:
Wish more people were interested in New Zealand's Stuart Main and Peter
Wells. Their two features, one a poetic documentary "The Mighty Civic", the other a
wonderfully stylized fiction film called "Desperate Remedies", cry out for
revival.
Some brief notes on my web site:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/exper.htm#Main
Have also added some notes on Hitchcock's OTHER film about birds and killing,
"Arthur", set in New Zealand:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/hitch.htm#Arthur
Mike Grost
"We are all strangers in this land called Love." - "Desperate Remedies"
22281
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:26pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
The laser disc of "New York, New York" contains a shooting script,
dated May 12, 1976, in which the title page credits the writing
entirely to MacRauch. The laser disc, though, gives an "edit" credit
to Mardik Martin. The shooting script makes for a very interesting
read in that much of the basic outline for the film as it stands now
is already there. Much of the dialogue, though, is entirely
rewritten or in some cases reshuffled. Jimmy Doyle's bit about the
importance of the "major chord" appears in a slightly later scene,
for example. I was surprised to see that Francine constantly
repeating "no...no..." to every pick-up line of Jimmy's in the
opening was in the script since it feels like something that came out
of an improv. The script is also a help in attempting to place a
last minute shuffling of scenes in the editing room that was always
puzzling. The Up Club sequence originally came much later, near the
very end of their marriage and it is from that point on that he
essentially drifts away from her, wandering the streets of New York
rather than coming home. (The scene in the club in Harlem,
culminating with the beating of Francine in the car, was earlier.) I
don't know if it was shot, but MacRauch (or somebody) wrote a scene
in which Paul Wilson calls Jimmy to tell him that Francine is in the
hospital giving birth but Jimmy tells him that he can't come until
he's finished playing his set for the evening. I'm not sure what
Scorsese's thinking was in moving these scenes around, unless he
wanted some feeling of a crisis in the marriage building to a
melodramatic climax in the car rather than, as originally conceived,
Francine and Jimmy just drifting away from one another.
It's not difficult to see what Scorsese was uncomfortable with in
MacRauch's script. The dialogue often has a stiff, self-conscious
wisecracking quality that, at least on the page, doesn't seem all
that promising. It would make for a collection of very brittle,
writerly scenes between Minnelli and DeNiro. One thing MacRauch does
give the two characters is a lot of dialogue in which they talk about
music and specific musicians, so that Jimmy will hold forth on
Charlie Parker or Count Basie while Francine will talk about Peggy
Lee or Helen Forrest. Lots of names get tossed around. Interesting
that Scorsese would want to remove that kind of specificity in terms
of the music of the period. I rememeber seeing Gerry Mulligan on TV
in the late seventies and he said he walked out on the film, which he
found totally inauthentic in its treatment of jazz. I'm not sure how
much that kind of authenticity really matters in relation to the film
Scorsese ended up making, though.
22282
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:39pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
"Apparently, the Matsuda benshi script simply supplies information
from the original story that is fully consistent with (but more
detailed than) the images themselves."
You're right. The Matsuda Shinsui version is fleshed out with
material from the original Kyoka story.
"Definitely no happy ending for the Matsuda version. I wonder how they
concocted a happy ending for the film -- add footage from something
else? The final imagery is unquestionably bleak."
The Occupation version tacks on the dream sequence at the end after
explaining in an inter-title that Taki was reprieved because the
money lender had committed some other crime. I haven't seen the
third version, but from what I've read the dream sequence has been
cut and Sadakichi (the law student become judge) dosen't commit
suicide.
Richard
22283
From: hotlove666
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:39pm
Subject: Audiovisual Propaganda - It Works! (Was: Film School Paranoia? )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
Thanks, Joe. The effect you describe of propaganda between 2 screenings of
one film is interesting. My ex- watched embedded coverage of the Iraq
invasion day and night for three days and came out of it a raving pro-Bush,
pro-war fanatic. I had to talk her down gently - but it was an interesting case.
Did anyone see The Hug during the State of the Union? I wasn't watching, but
read descriptions. Did it look real or staged?
22284
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:45pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
Among the oddities I have is an "Ironside" (the TV series)
novelization by Jim Thompson, no less....
-Sam
22285
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Audiovisual Propaganda - It Works! (Was: Film School Paranoia? )
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Did anyone see The Hug during the State of the
> Union? I wasn't watching, but
> read descriptions. Did it look real or staged?
>
>
>
>
Staged.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
22286
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:50pm
Subject: Re: THE SOUNDTRACK INVENTED SILENCE [Was: Sights & Sounds]
> Mizoguchi didn't want benshi accompaniment for his silent films and
> contrived ways to circumvent it, in part because benshi elaborated
> and fabricated plot points. Many benshi were notorious for this
> practice. You may have experienced something like that when you saw
> TAKI NO SHIRAITO.
I'll have to ask the presenter, who's comments certainly didn't
suggest this (and who researched benshi in Japan).
> By the way, there are three extant versions of the movie. One was an
> Occupation-era re-release with a happy ending. The correct version
> was not screened outside of Japan for many years (and it's the
> longest version.)
Absolutely NOT a happy ending to the version I saw.
I'm stll bummed out three months later ;-)
-Sam
22287
From: Zach Campbell
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 4:55pm
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
Tom:
> Even the best scores tend to set
> up a predetermined emotional state that could well be contrary to
> the artist's intentions; practically dictating how you're supposed
> to respond to the images at all moments.
I share the general preference here (it seems) for silent viewing
experiences of silent movies, or at least scores that are as
unobtrusive as possible, but I think we should keep in mind that
when these films were circulated . (And what's more, it was common
for audiences to talk noisily during screenings--at least, that's
what I've heard. Perhaps this was the case in some countries and
not others; I don't know.)
But in general the artist's intention (and expectation) for most of
these silent films was NOT for them to be seen in total silence!!!
So while we are perfectly free to "reduce" our potential experience
of a silent film to the experience adhering closest to "just" what
the original filmmakers have presented, we shouldn't pretend that
we're somehow staying true to their "original vision." Seeing old
silent narratives in the twenty-first century is by necessity a
mediated, compromised, transformed event ...
Also, I would meld Michael and Gabe's positions on Ozu. His films
are there to be enjoyed, but they can and do profoundly reward the
studious. I don't think Ozu is EVER as difficult as the high
modernists. To me he's as immediately appealing and engaging as
anything I can think of. 100% comfort cinema, 100% rigorous art. A
real "mystery of faith."
--Zach
22288
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Sights & Sounds
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>
> Brakhage DID believe that people experienced the world
differently, when
> watching purely silent films, than they did with films with sound.
>
> Mike Grost
He was right, of course. It's a fundamentally different experience.
And that is precisely why I feel that films made in the silent era
are better appreciated when viewed silent rather than with a musical
accompaniment (the term itself is annoying: does the film need an
escort?) -- even if the score and orchestration were chosen by the
filmmaker, which of course is very rarely the case anyway.
Perhaps the worst fault of any music tacked on a silent film is the
tyrannical fact that it has to be non-stop, when practically no
narrative film needs music all the time (and a lot of them would be
better with much less). Invariably the music, whether good, bad or
indifferent, just takes over, imposes itself upon the viewer, while
at the same time being so ever-present as to become almost absent
(you no longer notice it), or just a kind of background drone, no
more meaningful than the drone of the projector in a silent
projection. But no matter how significant or insignificant a scene,
a shot, a frame is, the music must never stop. This, for me at
least, tends to destroy most silent films.
I remember a pianist accompanying silents at MOMA back in the
eighties (forgot his name). Once he created a tremendously
impressive effect. At a moment of great suspense or tension in the
film (can't remember what it was either), he just stopped playing
for a few seconds. It was more dramatic than anything he had been
playing since the beginning. Film needs silence as much as it needs
sound!
I agree with Fred that it's better to watch "Sunrise" silent than
with any accompaniment, including the one supposedly chosen by
Murnau. Actually you might make the same case for Murnau (and other
filmmakers of the silent era)as for Brakhage: the image creates its
own rhythm, therefore the addition of a musical rhythm is either
redondant or disruptive.
I would make a distinction, however, between films of the silent era
and films made after the switch to sound. Perhaps because I was born
after sound came and was raised watching sound movies (like
everybody in this group, I assume) I find it difficult to completely
enjoy a film made without sound when sound was available. And that
includes "abstract" avant-garde films such as Brakhage's, even
though his rationale for preferring silence is perfectly legitimate.
Again I'll cite my favorite "avant garde" (if that's the correct
term in his case) filmmaker, Norman McLaren. The middle section
of "Begone Dull Care," with little white dots and white vertical
lines moving on a black background, looks very much like one
Brakhage sequence also with vertical white lines. However the
McLaren is wonderfully enhanced by the relationship between the
moving lines and the Errol Garnerish ballad playing of Oscar
Peterson and his bass player. Maybe it's not "pure" visual art but
it turns me on in a way Brakhage doesn't no matter how great his
painting looks. JPC
22289
From: Tom Sutpen
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:05pm
Subject: OT: Re: Audiovisual Propaganda - It Works! (Was: Film School Paranoia? )
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> > Did anyone see The Hug during the State of the
> > Union? I wasn't watching, but
> > read descriptions. Did it look real or staged?
> >
> Staged.
*****
Crudely staged, to these eyes.
And if word around the campfire (bloggers) is anything to go by, the
Iraqi woman was 'encouraged' to make the gesture by White House
staffers. It may just be idle talk, but somewhow I doubt it.
Tom Sutpen
22290
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ozu silents
Quoting "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr." :
> Well, I would say that Ozu's silents (like his sound films) are
>
> (mainly) NOT for the studious -- but rather were made for audiences to
>
> "enjoy". And inappropriately over-dramatic music hinders enjoyment
>
> (my enjoyment, at any rate). ;~}
> MEK
What a coincidence that this should currently be a subject
for the group. Just last night I drove all the way to Seattle
to catch a screening of the great "I was Born But...." which
was held with a live score accompaniment (a woman with a cello,
and another with a large string instrument of which I don't know the
name). I had previously seen the film only in complete silence,
so this was to be a new viewing experience of it. What a step down
it was; the film's power still held up, but the wallpaper music,
(which never seemed to change in tonality or expressiveness) proved
quite bothersome, and despite the musicians efforts, I would have
highly peffered their non-participation. I don't know if they were
playing the original score meant for the film (if there ever was one),
but this composition was not meant to be. At any rate, this is far from
the first time that I have regretted the music in a silent film,
I think that this is actually the Achilles' heel of the silent era,
and I would have loved to sit down with Grifith, Von Storheim, Maurice
Tourneur, Murnau, and countless others, to ask them what they
thought of the music use in their own films. I can't beleive that
men of such talent would have been behind the plastered rudementary
scores that played throughout their films without rest, or stoppage
for nuance.
Mathieu Ricordi
22291
From: thebradstevens
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:16pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
>
> Among the oddities I have is an "Ironside" (the TV series)
> novelization by Jim Thompson, no less....
But surely this can't be THE Jim Thompson!!!!!!!!
22292
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ozu silents
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
this is far from
> the first time that I have regretted the music in a
> silent film,
> I think that this is actually the Achilles' heel of
> the silent era,
> and I would have loved to sit down with Grifith, Von
> Storheim, Maurice
> Tourneur, Murnau, and countless others, to ask them
> what they
> thought of the music use in their own films.
I quite agree. For several films musical accompaniment
was created. Theaters plaing Griffith'stwo bigges "The
Birth of a Nation" and "Intolerance" were given scores
for the orchestra. Then there's Chaplin whose "Modern
Times" and "City Lights" while silent were constructed
with specific music in mind. Indeed "City Lights"
especially is unthinkable without its music. I wish
other silent films were the same but alas they're not.
When watching silent films on home video I find it
best to turn the music down very low. This keeps it
from getting in the way while avoiding the monotony of
pure silence.
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22293
From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 5:19pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
> >
> > Among the oddities I have is an "Ironside" (the TV series)
> > novelization by Jim Thompson, no less....
>
> But surely this can't be THE Jim Thompson!!!!!!!!
It is, Brad. Thompson did a number of novelizations including the
John Wayne/Rock Hudson post-Civil War film THE UNDEFEATED. Like
contemporary writers like Max Allen Collins, he had to make a living.
Tony Williams
22294
From:
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 1:06pm
Subject: Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
There apparently was huge money involved in some novelizations.
That's why famous writers such as Isaac Asimov did "Fantastic Voyage", and
Ellery Queen did "A Study in Terror", as Bill Krohn pointed out.
Mike Grost
22295
From: thebradstevens
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:05pm
Subject: novelizations (was Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
> > >
> > > Among the oddities I have is an "Ironside" (the TV series)
> > > novelization by Jim Thompson, no less....
> >
> > But surely this can't be THE Jim Thompson!!!!!!!!
>
> It is, Brad. Thompson did a number of novelizations including the
> John Wayne/Rock Hudson post-Civil War film THE UNDEFEATED. Like
> contemporary writers like Max Allen Collins, he had to make a
living.
>
Fascinating. Have Jim Thompson specialists ever analyzed this stuff
to see if any of it contains traces of Thompson's usual themes?
So is there anything else I should know? Did J. D. Salinger spend the
70s pseudonymously novelizing DUKES OF HAZARD episodes?
Does anyone know who wrote the novelizations of STAR WARS (attributed
to George Lucas) and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND (attributed
to Spielberg)?
Bernardino Zapponi's novelization of FELLINI'S CASNOVA is a lot of
fun - it even has an introduction by Casanova, who keeps breaking
into the novel to argue with Fellini about historical accuracy:
----------
CASANOVA: One moment, Signor Fellini! There was never any bird in my
MEMOIRES. How can you put such an obvious lie into your film?
FELLINI (mumbling): But the symbolism...I thought it would be good to
put in this leitmotif of the golden bird, which stands for-
CASANOVA: I know very well what it stands for. But in my day no one
talked about phallic symbols. Freud wasn't born yet, and neither was
Kraft-Ebbing. Well, then?
FELLINI (timidly): De Sade was, though.
CASANOVA: All right, go on.
------------
There are also a number of fascinating asides:
-----------
Several years pass. Revolutions break out, wars are waged, nations
die and other are born. A new age presses on the heels of the old.
The study of economics reaches its highest development. Adam Smith in
his WEALTH OF NATIONS shows that in a competitive society an
individual, by pursuing his personal interests, necessarily serves
the interests of the community as well. Adam Smith did not know
Casanova, otherwise he would have made a small exception to his
theory (it's the exception that proves the rule, anyway). Casanova
does nothing but pursue his own interests, which never become those
of the community. Sometimes, unfortunately, they don't even serve him.
-------------
22296
From: thebradstevens
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 7:10pm
Subject: novelizations (was Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
Just did an internet search for Jim Thompson's bibliography, and
noticed that he wrote the novelization for Michael Roemer's
remarkable 1964 film NOTHING BUT A MAN - only the novelization
doesn't appear to have been published until 1970!
22297
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Ozu silents
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Zach Campbell" wrote:
> But in general the artist's intention (and expectation) for most of
> these silent films was NOT for them to be seen in total silence!!!
> So while we are perfectly free to "reduce" our potential experience
> of a silent film to the experience adhering closest to "just" what
> the original filmmakers have presented, we shouldn't pretend that
> we're somehow staying true to their "original vision." Seeing old
> silent narratives in the twenty-first century is by necessity a
> mediated, compromised, transformed event ...
Silent film makers knew that their films would have music imposed (and
in Japan, narration as well) -- but in most cases had no role
whatsoever in choosing the music. I would argue that, for the most
part, the sound dimension of such films is entirely outside of their
creators' "vision". This leaves us free to take any course that
doesn't affirmatively interfere with our ability to give due attention
to the elements that were under their creative control.
> Also, I would meld Michael and Gabe's positions on Ozu. His films
> are there to be enjoyed, but they can and do profoundly reward the
> studious. I don't think Ozu is EVER as difficult as the high
> modernists. To me he's as immediately appealing and engaging as
> anything I can think of. 100% comfort cinema, 100% rigorous art. A
> real "mystery of faith."
I would never suggest that Ozu's films can't be studied or aren't
worth studying. :~} Just that, unless we first understand how they
functioned as "entertainment", we can have very little real
understanding of what they mean (or how they work).
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
> Just last night I drove all the way to Seattle
> to catch a screening of the great "I was Born But...." which
> was held with a live score accompaniment *******
> I don't know if they were
> playing the original score meant for the film (if there ever was
> one), but this composition was not meant to be. **************
> I can't beleive that
> men of such talent would have been behind the plastered rudementary
> scores that played throughout their films without rest, or stoppage
> for nuance.
"Silent" Japanese films probably never had non-stop musical
accompaniment. Music would have been used selectively -- and when the
tone of the film's images suggested music was unhelpful, music would
take a break.
MEK
MEK
22298
From: samfilms2003
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:15pm
Subject: novelizations (was Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
> > > But surely this can't be THE Jim Thompson!!!!!!!!
First sentence: "It was the kind of a place where if you didn't
spit on the floor at home you could go down there and do it"
need further proof ? ;-)
"The smell was thick enough to write your name on (if you were
still using your own name) -...."
I suspect I've convinced you. It gets better ;-)
"From somewhere in the smoke and stench, an unreasonable facsimilie
of a piano player was doing his own arrangement of "Goofus." It had
to be his own, no one else would have claimed it."
and into Thompsonian metaphysics on the next page:
"The Killer's comdenation was reserved for creatures of free will.
For those who might have done very well and had, perversely,
done very badly. As with God (reputedly), the Killer had tolerance
and understanding for the hapless evil of predestination."
> Fascinating. Have Jim Thompson specialists ever analyzed this stuff
> to see if any of it contains traces of Thompson's usual themes?
See above :-)
Really, it's been years since I read it, but as I recall he does actually
introduce Ironside and uh, write the book he was hired to !
I'd guess whoever commisioned this thing didn't read it;
probably counted enough words to confirm it was a novel, or
maybe just weighed the MS on a postal scale !
-Sam
22299
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2005 11:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ozu silents
Quoting "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr." :
> "Silent" Japanese films probably never had non-stop musical
>
> accompaniment. Music would have been used selectively -- and when the
>
> tone of the film's images suggested music was unhelpful, music would
>
> take a break.
>
> MEK
Well I sure wish that could have been the case for
the screening of "I was born but...." that I attended.
Mathieu Ricordi
22300
From: Noel Vera
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2005 11:56am
Subject: novelizations (was Re: New York, New York - novel into film, or film into novel?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
>
> > > But surely this can't be THE Jim Thompson!!!!!!!!
> >
Thompson from what I remember didn't make a lot of money from his
books. Philip Dick, to cite a similar example, had to write fast and
plenty to support himself and at one point had to live off dog food.
His books were often found in the porn section.
> Does anyone know who wrote the novelizations of STAR WARS
(attributed
> to George Lucas) and CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND
(attributed
> to Spielberg)?
If I remeber right, Alan Dean Foster HACK! HACK! HACK!
sorry, something in my throat...
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