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Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
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23201
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:13pm
Subject: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
wrote:
> > > She supplied a number of interesting anecdotes about working
with him but I can save those for later, if anyone's dying to hear
them.
> >
> > She also said some interesting things about
> > Rivette...
> wrote:
> That I'd like to hear.
On "L'amour fou" she said that Rivette filmed in a very free and
improvisational manner. But by the time of "Le pont du Nord" she
said that he had "changed." Although the actors did make
contributions to the screenplay and receive co-credit for the
writing, and while Rivette does not extensively rehearse, nothing was
improvised. Nevertheless, she feels that the freedom Rivette gives to
his actors is essentially illusory. All of this interest in their
contributions and ideas is ultimately just a way of manipulating and
controlling them. I may be wrong (and if anyone here knows their
history and relationship better than I please contribute)but I sensed
a certain ambivalence on Ogier's part towards Rivette. The way that
she said he had changed by the time of "Le pont du Nord" (his first
film after the breakdown, no?) suggested that this change was
slightly disappointing to her. In the Claire Denis film on Rivette,
Ogier is interviewed and when Denis asks her what Rivette is really
like she confesses that, even though she has known him for years, she
has no idea what he is really like.
Her admiration for Schroeter, on the other hand, seemed total. She
said that he inspires fierce loyalty and devotion from his cast and
crew who are willing to go to great lengths to help him realize the
film. For actors, working with him is very demanding not
psychologically (there is little psychology in the films)but
physically. She particularly admired Huppert's willingness to submit
to the demands of "Deux," working all night and doing take after take
of the most physically strenuous material. Interesting background on
the shot in the film in which Huppert is wearing some kind of Soviet
military uniform and standing amidst many nude bodies lying on the
ground, an image clearly meant to evoke the Holocaust: Ogier said
that they were all AIDS patients Schroeter had brought in from (I
think) Amsterdam.
Julianne Lorenz, incidentally, has said that the Fassbinder
Foundation is now working to preserve and promote Schroeter's work.
I hope this means that a traveling retro will take place sometime
soon.
23202
From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:19pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
If I love the film I stay, mainly because I'm still unwilling to let
the film go. This happens maybe once every five years or so.
Occasionally I stick around to see if the film supplies a credit for
its widescreen process (if any) or film stock, if I'm dying to find
out right then and there. For some reason, though, fewer and fewer
films supply information about Panavision/Technovision/Super 35,
etc. All a big secret and you usually have to look elsewhere to find
this stuff out. Rarely have I seen a film with a final credit
sequence worth sticking around for, the one recent exception I can
think of being "Kill Bill, Volume 2," in which Tarantino turns the
credits into a short film in its own right.
23203
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
Adrian asks:
Or am I being excessively old-fashioned about this?
You are, but then so am I.
My husband and friends have gotten used to being
the lasts ones out of the theatre. LOL.
For me it is a matter of respect. But I have always
retained the right to leave before the credits finish
as an indication of disgust or disappointment at the
film and/or filmmaker.
Brian
23204
From:
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
I stay until the very end for three reasons beyond those already mentioned:
1. To find out where it was filmed
2. To get a list of the songs played in the film
3. To find out who funded the film (if it's not a big Hollywood production)
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23205
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:45pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
> Personally, I like watching end credits, I often learn something I didn't
> expect to from them. And - after all - the film is simply NOT OVER until the
> last frame has unspooled, the soundtrack has ended, the lights have come on
> and the curtains have closed !!! Or am I being excessively old-fashioned
> about this?
I agree with you, but when I'm at a busy festival and have only a few
minutes to get across town to another film, I allow myself to let the
credits go. - Dan
23206
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:58pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I like watching end credits, I often learn something I
didn't
> expect to from them. And - after all - the film is simply NOT OVER
until the
> last frame has unspooled, the soundtrack has ended, the lights
have come on
> and the curtains have closed !!! Or am I being excessively old-
fashioned
> about this?
>
> still in the theatre, Adrian
"Old-fashioned" would bring us back to an era when there were no
end credits, and therefore no problem of whether to stay or go. But
you bring up an issue that goes beyond the question of whether to
stay or leave. Ever since those endless end credits have become the
rule for all movies I have been having this strange in-between
feeling in the movie theatre that the film is over and at the same
time not over (it's not over till it's over, I guess). In a way,
films no longer "end" in the sense they used to. I feel the end-
credit rule brought about a drastic change in our relationship to
movies and movie watching.
Most of the time there is little information of any interest to be
picked up from those credits. Sometimes they're worth listening to
for the score, though. But by and large the experience of watching
names scrolling up for five or ten minutes is rather depressing, a
let-down after a good movie, something to be avoided after a poor
one.
Maybe Adrian is right that a film critic should watch a movie to
the bitter end, but most ordinary people leave the moment the end
credits start rolling and you can't blame them.
An early and very unusual kind of end credits was Saul Bass's
animation for "Round the World in 80 Days". It was by far the most
enjoyable part of the movie. But in France, even during the film's
firt run in Paris, theatres turned on the house lights and the
cartoon was projected on closed curtains while all the spectators
raced to the exits...
I remember a time, long before end credits came around, when many
moviegoers, in France at least, considered the opening credits a
waste of time and tried to avoid them. There always was a first part
of the show, with shorts, newsreels and trailers, then an
intermission, during which lots of people went into the lobby or
even out of the theatre to smoke or have a drink or whatever, and
when the feature started they stayed out until they could tell (from
the music, I guess) that the credits were over.
I knew a cinephile in New York who wanted to write a book on the
history of film credits and had amassed a huge documentation. I
don't think anything ever came out of it but that could have been
quite interesting.
JPC
23207
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
I always stay for the complete credits, whether I like the film or not.
Similarly, I virtually never walk on on a film, even if I hate it. I'm
not saying never never; I don't want to force myself to endure something
truly painful, but I can't remember the last time I walked out on
something. My theory here is that credits are part of the film, and that
if you haven't seen the whole film you haven't really seen it, and then
what's the point.
Two cases in point: Chabrol's "Landru" has a freeze frame over which the
credits appear, but then at the end of the credits the image unfreezes,
the camera moves, and comes to rest on a new and amazing image. Even
more stunning is the end of "In Harm's Way." The credits appear over
waves, and last a long time, but after they end something amazing
happens with those waves. When the film was in its commercial release it
was hard to catch all this: the curtains were closing, the colored
lights were coming on the curtains, as typically was done with end
credits, and you had to strain to see the film's true end in these
horrible conditions. Both endings are quite great, and prove that their
credits are part of the film.
On the other hand, this viewing "purity" can be carried too far. Before
I knew about exit music we showed a print of I think it was Ford's
"Judge Priest" at our film society. It ends with five minutes of black
leader and "Dixie" or something. Because we always showed the complete
film our audience had to sit through five minutes of "Dixie" in the
dark, which was surely no one's intent vis-a-vis exit music sequences,
intended to run with the lights on.
Similarly, most current credits, white on black with no image and
nothing after, are arguably not really part of the film. The other
reasons to stay, such as those Kevin gave, are for information.
Fred Camper
23208
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
I generally stay until the end of the end credits, unless I'm so repulsed by
the film that I need some air and then leave right after the screen goes
black.
Some reasons for staying:
1) recovering
2) trying to realize what the film was all about, testing its equilibrium,
etc.
3) you leave the theater without having to listen to moronic statements
(mainly at press screenings) that make you remember how much stupid people
there are in the world.
4) all those Kevin mentions
I generally don't attend press screenings because I go to sleep very late
and wake up at 11. It takes more than Alexander to make me wake up before
that hour. Still, I was so glad I managed to avoid what people were saying
after press screenings of Million Dollar Baby and The Aviator.
ruy
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] Re: Staying power
>
> I stay until the very end for three reasons beyond those already
mentioned:
>
> 1. To find out where it was filmed
> 2. To get a list of the songs played in the film
> 3. To find out who funded the film (if it's not a big Hollywood
production)
>
> Kevin John
23209
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:09pm
Subject: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> On "L'amour fou" she said that Rivette filmed in a
> very free and
> improvisational manner. But by the time of "Le pont
> du Nord" she
> said that he had "changed." Although the actors did
> make
> contributions to the screenplay and receive
> co-credit for the
> writing, and while Rivette does not extensively
> rehearse, nothing was
> improvised. Nevertheless, she feels that the freedom
> Rivette gives to
> his actors is essentially illusory. All of this
> interest in their
> contributions and ideas is ultimately just a way of
> manipulating and
> controlling them.
Very interesting and just as I'dlong suspected.
I may be wrong (and if anyone here
> knows their
> history and relationship better than I please
> contribute)but I sensed
> a certain ambivalence on Ogier's part towards
> Rivette. The way that
> she said he had changed by the time of "Le pont du
> Nord" (his first
> film after the breakdown, no?) suggested that this
> change was
> slightly disappointing to her.
His first film after the breakdown was "Merry Go
Round."
I suspect her ideas about acting have changed over the
years as well. Clearly her performance as Viva in
"Duelle" is as carefully directed as anything anyone
has ever attempted.
In the Claire Denis
> film on Rivette,
> Ogier is interviewed and when Denis asks her what
> Rivette is really
> like she confesses that, even though she has known
> him for years, she
> has no idea what he is really like.
>
That's very French.
> Her admiration for Schroeter, on the other hand,
> seemed total. She
> said that he inspires fierce loyalty and devotion
> from his cast and
> crew who are willing to go to great lengths to help
> him realize the
> film. For actors, working with him is very
> demanding not
> psychologically (there is little psychology in the
> films)but
> physically. She particularly admired Huppert's
> willingness to submit
> to the demands of "Deux," working all night and
> doing take after take
> of the most physically strenuous material.
> Interesting background on
> the shot in the film in which Huppert is wearing
> some kind of Soviet
> military uniform and standing amidst many nude
> bodies lying on the
> ground, an image clearly meant to evoke the
> Holocaust: Ogier said
> that they were all AIDS patients Schroeter had
> brought in from (I
> think) Amsterdam.
>
No surprise there. Schroeder lost so many to AIDS it's
not funny -- one long-time lover in particular. For
awhile many felt he'd never make movies again.
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23210
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
I actually wrote a long article about this, "Generiques de fin,"
starting off with the twin phenomena of staying till the end and the
studios' use of longer end credits since the 60s (I had had to proof
those suckers when I did presskits at Fox), and segueing to an
analysis of the end credits of Innocent Blood - in CdC's "Cela
s'appelle l'horreur" issue, number 463. The point of departure was
the fact that Alfred Hitchcock and Count Dracula (played by
Christoppher Lee) are both listed as characters in Innocent Blood,
despite only being seen in clips on tv. I called Landis' office to
ask why, and the answer came back thru his assistant: "Because they
ARE characters in the film." You can imagine what I made of that.
I still stay till the end it even at home, where I use FF, and I
almost always learn something. It's part ritual, part rational,
although the rational part is theoretically not necessary if one has
a press kit - or the imdb! Maybe the ritual part never caught on in
Australia?
23211
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:21pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> I always stay for the complete credits, whether I like the film or
Fun end credits seen in just the last few weeks: The Back Lot Murders
(just bloopers) and Jack Frost 2: Revenge of the Mutant Killer
Snowman, where they mad a mini-mini-Japanese film and put it right
after the cast. Resaw The Village last night at the Academy: very
nice credits (tintypes) and score (the only thing nominated). You'd
have to be a heartless fiend to walk out on the end credits of Edward
Scissorhands, which end, musically, on an unresolved chord - quite
daring. And as I recall, the end credits of Night of the Living Dead
are the most important thing in the movie.
Kubrick obviously didn't care for long end credits - Full Metal
Jacket was especially brief - but Spielberg made the end credits of
Eyes Wide Shut drag on forever with that waltz playing, as
a "tribute" to the departed. >Gag! Retch!<
23212
From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:34pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> Can I get a show of hands on this? Is it only me, or do MOST of us
here at
> AFB agree that it is sensible, sometimes useful & informative, sometimes
> even fun - and, most importantly, a necessary act of respect towards
a movie
> - to stay until the very end of the credits?
I agree, though I've had more than a few friends express utter
bewilderment when I stay seated through the credits ("Do you know
someone who worked on the film?"). Unless it's an "Austin Powers"- or
Jackie Chan-type film promising a sequence of outtakes, it's rare to
see people stay through the end credits. On that note, since I don't
see many new releases, I wonder whether the rise of supplement-laden
DVDs has eliminated that practice of appending outtakes to those kind
of films.
On the other hand, if it's a film in which I'm finding no interest
whatsoever, I have no problem leaving in the middle (of the film, not
the credits; to the horror of many in this group, I did this most
recently with Hou's "City of Sadness").
I suspect a lot of critics walked out during the end credits of Spike
Lee's "Bamboozled", missing an important part of what I think is a
flawed-but-great film.
-Jason
--
Jason Guthartz
jason@r...
--
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen
with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing
anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable."
--Hunter S. Thompson
RIP
23213
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:36pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
In general, I always stay thruout the credits. For me, its a period
where I can make the first reflection on the film and enjoy those who
made the film. In the 30's end credits sometimes said "A good cast is
worth repeating" (or something like that), and the participants where
then presented. For me, that still is true. Even though I know who
directors, edited, scored, and so on, the film, I still love to sit
and watch their names appear.
I very rarely use end credits as source. First of all, they roll by so
fast, that one has to write shorthand to get those worth recording.
Second of all, I can always get their names thru presskits, IMDB or
otherwise. And finally, only the major staff is of interest. I really
don't care who was 2nd assistent gaffer.
At press screenings I never walk out, but I will walk out on a film at
festivals or if I've paid money to see it, if the film is horible bad.
There is nothing worse than sitting thru a bad film. I simply don't
have the endurance of Fred, and I don't even admire it. If a filmmaker
has made a piece of shit, which insults its audience, by lacking pace,
story, or anything else, I will walk out.
A totally different question is, how many here have fallen asleep
during a film?
While I've dozed off at Festivals after having seen 6 films that day,
I have to admit, that I've simply fallen asleep while watching even
good films at the cinema, because the seats was so cozy and warm :)
Henrik
23214
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:37pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
ht666 writes:
> Kubrick obviously didn't care for long end credits -
Full Metal Jacket was especially brief - but Spielberg
made the end credits of Eyes Wide Shut drag on
forever with that waltz playing, as a "tribute" to the
departed.
Spielberg did the end credits for "EWS"?
Brian
23215
From: Zach Campbell
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:59pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
Fred:
> My theory here is that credits are part of the film, and that
> if you haven't seen the whole film you haven't really seen it, and
> then what's the point.
Though I don't usually walk out on the first appearance of credits,
I confess I usually do dip out of the theater somewhere in the
middle of credit sequences in commercial films--which is not
something I think is good practice, but it's a habit. But if I
really am moved by a film, or if there's reason to believe that
extra sequences will appear, or if there is an image behind the
credits (as in your examples, Fred) then I'll usually stay.
To reiterate my affection for Lisandro Alonso, his features both
have heavy electronic music playing over simple black-screen credits
which provides an interesting counterpoint to the quiet, wilderness-
infused film "narrative" you've just watched. I have a few
intuitions-in-search-of-a-theory as to what he might be up to with
such a strategy.
--Zach
23216
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
Just falshed on the end credits for two very important
Scorsese films:"Raging Bull" and "The Aviator." In the
former an arangement of "At Last"-- echoing as if from
a distant room -- plays as we hear the sound of the
real Jake la Motta snoring in his sleep.
In "The Aviator" a Leadbelly song about Howard Hughes
and Katherine Hepburn plays over the final credits.
This is the only appearance by an African-American in
the entire film -- for reasosn its openig scene makes
obvious.
Marty must have felt like he struck gold when he found
that song.
--- BklynMagus wrote:
> ht666 writes:
>
> > Kubrick obviously didn't care for long end credits
> -
> Full Metal Jacket was especially brief - but
> Spielberg
> made the end credits of Eyes Wide Shut drag on
> forever with that waltz playing, as a "tribute" to
> the
> departed.
>
> Spielberg did the end credits for "EWS"?
>
> Brian
>
>
>
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23217
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:03pm
Subject: Kapu on Sunday 27FEB 5pm PST on Turner Classic Movies
KapÚ has been discussed here; will someone briefly mention why?
23218
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:16pm
Subject: Christopher Maclaine and Arthur Lipsett
If there are members of our group who are interested in seeing films by
Christopher Maclaine and/or Arthur Lipsett and expect to be in the
Chicago area in March or April, please email me off list.
They are both, in my view, very great and too little known filmmakers.
Maclaine worked in San Francisco in the 50s; Lipsett in Montreal mostly
in the 60s. Both made films of acerbic social criticism. After a
productive decade each stopped, Maclaine apparently brain damaged due to
heavy methamphetamine use (he died in an institution, apparently barely
coherent), Lipsett due to the onset of the mental illness that
eventually led to his suicide in 1986.
For more of my views, and
some information on their work (with links), see
http://www.fredcamper.com/Film/Maclaine.html and
http://www.fredcamper.com/Film/Lipsett.html
Fred Camper
23219
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:39pm
Subject: re: Staying Power
David, I second your singling out of Scorsese's end credits. Believe it or
not, I have entertained several friends by getting them to stay through the
end credits of GOODFELLAS - and getting them to 'count in' (quietly!) to
demonstrate the fact that the credits are edited to the music! (Something
Kubrick also did on occasion - he has very dramatic credits; Todd Haynes
mimics this in VELVET GOLDMINE). Amusingly, the industrial hierarchy is
still conformed to by Scorsese: 'full frame' credits get more beats than
lowlier bunched-names !!!!!
Except: last time I tried this with my buddies, it was a TV screening of
GOODFELLAS - and, horror of horrors, we found that the credits had been
re-edited in order to speed them up!!! Thus they no longer appeared 'on the
beat'. Sacrilege.
Believe me, even the 'assistant gaffer' credit is exciting when you can
triumphantly count in your head '4, 3, 2, 1 ... ' before it appears on
screen!!!!!!
definitely obsessed Adrian
23220
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:37pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> ht666 writes:
> Spielberg did the end credits for "EWS"?
>
> Brian
Assumption. A. they're long. b. I believe that Spielberg helped Harlin get the
film in shape to release. SK died after he locked the picture - there are many
details that come after that.
23221
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Kapu on Sunday 27FEB 5pm PST on Turner Classic Movies
> KapÚ has been discussed here; will someone briefly mention why?
Jacques Rivette wrote a famous article condemning KAPO, focusing on one
sequence in particular. The article is a touchstone for the idea that
what seems like a purely aesthetic decision - like a tracking shot - can
have moral consequences. - Dan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23222
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> In "The Aviator" a Leadbelly song about Howard Hughes
> and Katherine Hepburn plays over the final credits.
> This is the only appearance by an African-American in
> the entire film -- for reasosn its openig scene makes
> obvious.
>
> Marty must have felt like he struck gold when he found
> that song.
It is nice.
I just saw an Aviator script, which begins with a infected-looking swamp and
ends (prose description) with the idea that HH's madness was the price he
paid for his greatness. This comment comes just before the end; there is also
a moment whjere the old HH is glimpsed watching himself on tv. But the
"future" line etc. is the same, and the bath shot comes on right after the
swamp.
23223
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
What annoys me are those people who get to their feet as soon as the
end credits begin, pull on their jackets, and then just stand there
staring at the screen, seemingly oblivious to the fact that people
seated behind them might have some interest in watching the credits.
I always thought that this would make a great opening scene for
George Romero's next zombie film.
The other annoyance is when the cleaning staff move towards the front
of the cinema and glare at you.
There's a nice gag at the end of FERRIS BUELLER'S DAY OFF. Matthew
Broderick walks into the frame and asks "why there are you still
sitting there?".
23224
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:22pm
Subject: Re: Kapu on Sunday 27FEB 5pm PST on Turner Classic Movies
Searching the archives for a very old post can be difficult, so: There
was an early discussion of this ("Kapo") at post 1026, but I think the
thread you're looking for begins at post 6707. (This is based on a quick
search of my files; feel free to offer corrections if I've missed
something.)
Fred Camper
23225
From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:02pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> In a way,
> films no longer "end" in the sense they used to. I feel the end-
> credit rule brought about a drastic change in our relationship to
> movies and movie watching.
>
> Most of the time there is little information of any interest to be
> picked up from those credits.
While of course we're not interested in actors here, one obvious advantage of today's endless credits has been the longer cast listings. Older films, frustratingly, left so many actors in smaller parts not just unidentified but unnamed.
Aren't today's end credits a lot more excessive than in the days of In Harm's Way, though? I think my decision to stay through them dates to the example of Bertolucci's Little Buddha, which had a wonderful post-credits image (it's nice to give the audience, non-Buddhists anyway, a reward for their patience), but I haven't seen its like (or much of anything, really) since. I tend to stay if only for a glance at the music tracks, which usually comes late in the sequence, but by that time (unless of course a film has been in some way stunning), instead of actually still sitting there I'm increasingly likely to be in mid-retreat or even halfway out the door (of course the important thing here is not to block anyone else's view)...
23226
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:18pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
one obvious advantage of today's endless credits has been the longer cast
listings. Older films, frustratingly, left so many actors in smaller parts not just
unidentified but unnamed.
The AFI Catalogue has done great work filling that gap. Of course the work is
still in progress, but someday when they catch up and it's all available on line
or CD rom, that will be the definitive source for American narrative films.
Music credits are also good to get. And since I used to work in PR, I'm curious
to see the unit publicist and photographjy credits. Stunned to see that my old
friend and fellow Gurdjieffian Paulette Dawber did the unit on Huckabees, I
knew the presskit would be useful. The name Michael Singer as unit publicist
means the presskit will be a small, high-quality book - he turned in 90 pp. for
New World, the new Malick film, he tells me. Dedications, thank-yous - there's
lots of good info. (Anderson's thankyou to Demme on Punch Drunk Love
bespoke the link between that film and Demme's Truth About Charlie, out at
the same time: 40th anniversary tributes to Shoot the Piano Player.) Of course
if it's a small film you find out who drove the honeywagon, something I first
saw proofing credits for Enemies, A Love Story.
23227
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
--- jess_l_amortell wrote:
>
> Aren't today's end credits a lot more excessive than
> in the days of In Harm's Way, though? I think my
> decision to stay through them dates to the example
> of Bertolucci's Little Buddha, which had a wonderful
> post-credits image (it's nice to give the audience,
> non-Buddhists anyway, a reward for their patience),
> but I haven't seen its like (or much of anything,
> really) since.
I am suddenly reminded of the greatest end credit
sequence of all-time : "Citizen Kane."
Recently I had an exchange with someone in Romenesko's
Media News as I quoted "I think it would be fun to run
a newspaper" as being the film's last line. He said it
was the last line spoken in the end credits, and
that's where I brought up the fact that the end
credits of "Citizen Kane" are ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL to
its meaning and not a pasted on optional extra.
"Citizen Kane" is strutured as a series of "catalogue
raissonee" of Charles Foster Kane's life. The cryptic
opening shots are one rendition. This is followed by
"News on the March" which presents another. The
Thatcher Library account is another, and the
successive interviews with Bernstein, Leland and Susan
present others in turn. In the last reel the reporters
go once more round the manse speaking of individual
aritifacts and their potential meaning. Finally we end
up with the sled.
After that comes the end credits, ostensibly designed
to "introduce" the Mercury Players and give them a
curtain call, but in fact constitute an ultimate
underescoring of what's most important in "Kane"
And it's there we find the heart-wrenching
"I have his truck all packed.I've had it packed for a
week now."
and the sublime
" 'I think it would be fun to run a newspaper.' I
THINK IT WOULD BE 'FUN' TO RUN A NEWSPAPER!"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
23228
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> In "The Aviator" a Leadbelly song about Howard Hughes
> and Katherine Hepburn plays over the final credits.
> This is the only appearance by an African-American in
> the entire film -- for reasosn its openig scene makes
> obvious.
>
> Marty must have felt like he struck gold when he found
> that song.
It is nice.
I just saw an Aviator script, which begins with a infected-looking swamp and
ends (prose description) with the idea that HH's madness was the price he
paid for his greatness. This comment comes just before the end; there is also
a moment whjere the old HH is glimpsed watching himself on tv. But the
"future" line etc. is the same, and the bath shot comes on right after the
swamp.
23229
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> In "The Aviator" a Leadbelly song about Howard Hughes
> and Katherine Hepburn plays over the final credits.
> This is the only appearance by an African-American in
> the entire film -- for reasosn its openig scene makes
> obvious.
>
> Marty must have felt like he struck gold when he found
> that song.
It is nice.
I just saw an Aviator script, which begins with a infected-looking swamp and
ends (prose description) with the idea that HH's madness was the price he
paid for his greatness. This comment comes just before the end; there is also
a moment whjere the old HH is glimpsed watching himself on tv. But the
"future" line etc. is the same, and the bath shot comes on right after the
swamp.
23230
From: hotlove666
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:41pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> In "The Aviator" a Leadbelly song about Howard Hughes
> and Katherine Hepburn plays over the final credits.
> This is the only appearance by an African-American in
> the entire film -- for reasosn its openig scene makes
> obvious.
>
> Marty must have felt like he struck gold when he found
> that song.
It is nice.
I just saw an Aviator script, which begins with a infected-looking swamp and
ends (prose description) with the idea that HH's madness was the price he
paid for his greatness. This comment comes just before the end; there is also
a moment whjere the old HH is glimpsed watching himself on tv. But the
"future" line etc. is the same, and the bath shot comes on right after the
swamp.
23231
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Staying power
Bill K. is turning into Howard H. repeating "The way of the future"
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
To:
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 4:41 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Staying power
>
> It is nice.
>
> I just saw an Aviator script, which begins with a infected-looking swamp
and
> ends (prose description) with the idea that HH's madness was the price he
> paid for his greatness. This comment comes just before the end; there is
also
> a moment whjere the old HH is glimpsed watching himself on tv. But the
> "future" line etc. is the same, and the bath shot comes on right after the
> swamp.
>
23232
From: Robert Keser
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:26pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- "thebradstevens" wrote:
"The other annoyance is when the cleaning staff move towards the
front of the cinema and glare at you."
My experience, in Chicago at least, has been that the cleaning staff
hang back until the last patron has left the theater. I can speak
authoritatively about this because the last one is usually me.
The Farrelly Brothers movies have by far the most inclusive (and
entertaining) end credits. In SHALLOW HAL (I believe), between
crediting every last Foley Artist and Personal Hairdresser, they go
on to not only thank but name and show pictures of extras whose
scenes were eliminated in the final cut!
It's true that the information in end credits is available
elsewhere, but it's worth waiting for the occasional surprise.
For example, there's nothing in the film itself to betray the fact
that the Hollywood locations in SEED OF CHUCKY were almost entirely
shot in Rumania! For those of us who don't receive press kits, such
info can point to interesting and little-remarked trends.
--Robert Keser
23233
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
"Kubrick obviously didn't care for long end credits..."
The exception of course is 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY, the first movie in
my memory to have extensive end credits (released in Los Angeles in
July 1968.) The title credit was just that: the title. Also in 1968
was ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST where every credit except the title
appears at the beginning, and the end title reads: "The end of ONCE
UPON A TIME IN THE WEST," thus making the whole movie a pre-title
sequence.
I recently re-saw 2001 at the Cinematheque with my landlord a special
effects god who chatted with all the other special effects gods who
came to see it, and everyone of them remained until the last credit.
At the Academy's Samuel Goldwyn Theatre (best theatre on the West
Coast) at screenings for technical people everyone stays until the
last credit presumably to see their names or their friends' and
rivals' names. Maybe it's different for other screenings there.
Richard
23234
From: Frederick M. Veith
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:56pm
Subject: Los Muertos end credits
Zach,
It's interesting that you feel this way, because I found the end credits
to Los Muertos particularly difficult to take in a way which continues to
affect my impression of the film. I hasten to add that this has nothing
per se to do with the "heaviness" or dissonance of the music itself; I
have much more "extreme" records that I listen to with pleasure. But
where you saw an interesting counterpoint, I perceived a disjuncture
between the credits and what I saw (or wanted to see) in the film proper
which was either not productive or negatively productive of meaning. The
music together with the RED on BLACK starkness of the typeface of the
credits (I definitely wouldn't describe these as "simple black") all
seemed a bit too portentous and frankly juvenile in a very Gasper Noe-ish
way. (Neither was I surprised to see who funded the film at the end of the
credits.) It just all seemed like an unnecessary kick in the teeth in the
"aid" of a film which did not require such flourishes. That said, there
was a lot to like in what preceeded it. I'm curious about your
intuitions....
Fred.
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Zach Campbell wrote:
> To reiterate my affection for Lisandro Alonso, his features both
> have heavy electronic music playing over simple black-screen credits
> which provides an interesting counterpoint to the quiet, wilderness-
> infused film "narrative" you've just watched. I have a few
> intuitions-in-search-of-a-theory as to what he might be up to with
> such a strategy.
23235
From: thebradstevens
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
the end title reads: "The end of ONCE
> UPON A TIME IN THE WEST," thus making the whole movie a pre-title
> sequence.
I've never seen a print of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST that ended
that way!
23236
From:
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:42pm
Subject: The President's Barber
Has anyone seen this Korean movie, and if so, would you recommend it?
(I'm looking at you, Moon So-Ri fans.) It's between that and Swing
Time tomorrow night.
Sam
23237
From:
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
A big part of "Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen", Clive
Donner's toungue-in-cheek version of the old detective series, is a long music
video-like sequence cut to the Zampa Overture by Herold - the best part of the
movie, although the whole film is highly stylish and inventive. The lovely music is
reprised again over the end credits, and is worth sitting through to the
climax.
Similarly, the music in "The Naked City" reaches its true climax in the end
credits.
I almost always stay for the end credits. It is sort of relaxing, in addition
to all the reasons in other posts.
But, one of David Zucker's spoofs has a notice reminding us at the very end
of a long final credit sequence: "If you had left the theater when these
credits began, you'd be home by now."
Words of Wisdom!
Mike Grost
23238
From: jaketwilson
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
Even tonight at a preview of
> CONSTANTINE, an actual AFB member - you know who you are! - went
south long
> before a very important (and charming) post-credits scene arrived.
This would be me (hello, Adrian!). Years ago I did make a ritual of
staying to the very end, but irritated enough friends that I got out
of the habit. I do stay if I suspect there'll be a scene afterwards
(mainly in comedies), or if I want specific information, or if the
music maintains a mood. But on the whole my feeling is that the
typical modern closing-credits sequence isn't really "part" of the
film, any more than the publishing details at the front of a book
constitute an additional chapter.
JTW
23239
From: Robert Keser
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:14pm
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
" A big part of "Charlie Chan and the Curse of the Dragon Queen",
Clive Donner's tongue-in-cheek version of the old detective series,
is a long music video-like sequence cut to the Zampa Overture by
Herold - the best part of the movie..."
And the best part of "Down With Love" was the musical number during
the end credits!
--Robert Keser
23240
From: Elizabeth Nolan
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:14pm
Subject: RE: Staying power
I seldom read credits as most of that info is available on the
internet, but I do stay while they roll to allow the film to
consolidate in my mind. I started to stay because I found that I often
could not remember the ending of a movie. Analyzing that as a
psychologist, I decided the lapse of memory for the movie ending was
because of the retrograde inhibition on the last part of the movie
brought on by all the attention paid to other things (like walking up
the aisles, through the theater, to the parking lot, etc). So I stay,
but I don't read the credits, just consolidate the movie in my mind.
The is one film critic who hurries out of the theater, sometimes
missing that added last scene... he needs to get his nicotine fix.
23241
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:49pm
Subject: Bogdanovich on WFMU
Peter B. is on The Speakeasy on WFMU right now in interview for the
hour. About another hour after it ends, the show will be up on the
website archived for streaming listening.
craig.
23242
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Los Muertos end credits
Fred, Zach
Interestingly, I felt the same way as Fred. It's kind of funny, because I
recognize questions of style and trends in contemporary modern cinema (I'd
add Naomi Kawase's "Shara", Vincent Gallo's "The Brown Bunny" and Claire
Denis' "L'Intrus" as well, Zach), but Los Muertos falls short in comparison.
I haven't seen "La Libertad", so maybe I'm missing something, and of course
there are very interesting things about the film, but I don't think "Los
Muertos" is a great one. Lisandro Alonso certainly knows what to do with the
camera, when to cut, what to show, what not to show (even if I think that
the scene with the whore is a very textbook account on showing/not showing).
But I don't see the rhythm of the film or its dry style matches anything
that's on the screen - certainly not the protagonist's life rhythm. "Los
Muertos" strikes me as too much self-conscious, and a wild tour with a
guide. It was not only the end credits but the whole ending that got me
thinking: why does it end with us seeing the toys in the sand? (should I
have said: SPOILERS?) If it was signed David Fincher or Gaspar Noé, I'd be
sure what the toys meant (he was a psycho and murdered the little ones). I
felt that the ending at that time was as good as ending 20 minutes earlier
or 30 minutes later (maybe, again, I'm missing something). Lisandro Alonso
is obviously talented and the scene at the jail is a great one. After that,
I think he loses himself delirious about the otherness (jungle/city,
poor/middleclass, uneducated/educated, wild/mild) that he portrays, rather
than opening himself to a very interesting character and a very interesting
place to film. He is called out where Apichatpong "Joe" Weerasethakul has
hit a home run. Maybe he'll be the Wim Wenders of this new global trend
(which has to be analyzed together with other phenomena as reality shows,
"24", internet webcams and such), maybe he just scored low on this one.
Still a promising one, for sure am I gonna see his following films.
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick M. Veith"
To: "a_film_by"
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:56 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Los Muertos end credits
>
> Zach,
>
> It's interesting that you feel this way, because I found the end credits
> to Los Muertos particularly difficult to take in a way which continues to
> affect my impression of the film. I hasten to add that this has nothing
> per se to do with the "heaviness" or dissonance of the music itself; I
> have much more "extreme" records that I listen to with pleasure. But
> where you saw an interesting counterpoint, I perceived a disjuncture
> between the credits and what I saw (or wanted to see) in the film proper
> which was either not productive or negatively productive of meaning. The
> music together with the RED on BLACK starkness of the typeface of the
> credits (I definitely wouldn't describe these as "simple black") all
> seemed a bit too portentous and frankly juvenile in a very Gasper Noe-ish
> way. (Neither was I surprised to see who funded the film at the end of the
> credits.) It just all seemed like an unnecessary kick in the teeth in the
> "aid" of a film which did not require such flourishes. That said, there
> was a lot to like in what preceeded it. I'm curious about your
> intuitions....
>
> Fred.
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, Zach Campbell wrote:
>
> > To reiterate my affection for Lisandro Alonso, his features both
> > have heavy electronic music playing over simple black-screen credits
> > which provides an interesting counterpoint to the quiet, wilderness-
> > infused film "narrative" you've just watched. I have a few
> > intuitions-in-search-of-a-theory as to what he might be up to with
> > such a strategy.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
23243
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Los Muertos end credits
Lisandro Alonso and I had a very nice "formal" chat about LOS
MUERTOS for the Dutch magazine De Filmkrant. Here's an
excerpt:
"Like in La Libertad, I like to use music to give my films a time
period. Without music, these films could take place fifteen years
in the past or in the future."
Fred V. wrote:
>The music together with the RED on BLACK starkness of the
>typeface of the credits (I definitely wouldn't describe these as
>"simple black") all seemed a bit too portentous and frankly
>juvenile in a very Gasper Noe-ish way.
I haven't heard it from Lisandro first-hand but the beginning of
LOS MUERTOS is said to be a response to IRREVERSIBLE. It
was also a shot that he made to raise money for the project.
But back to the music: Lisandro stated when I first met him three
years ago that it's to remind us of the city. He grew up in the city,
and only became fond of the country in his '20s. Remember: in
both LA LIBERTAD and LOS MUERTOS there are elements of
autobiography, since Alonso identifies with these men, and was
friends with and saw a soul mate in Misael (the woodcutter in LA
LIBERTAD).
>(Neither was I surprised to see who funded the film at the end
>of the credits.)
Huh?
> It just all seemed like an unnecessary kick in the teeth in the
> "aid" of a film which did not require such flourishes.
I don't have a problem with it... In fact, I once taught an entire
class on LA LIBERTAD, and nearly all of the students thought the
techno music was an interesting contrast since in the context of
their class they had been learning about Argentine culture and
how affluent Argentines, especially in Buenos Aires, are in denial
about the poverty that lurks outside of the metropolises.
Gabe
23244
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Los Muertos end credits
Ruy, you should get in the habit of trimming the quoted text in
your posts
Anyway, the ending of LOS MUERTOS reminded me of a Manny
Farber painting since the space in the film is suddenly
"miniaturized".
Gabe
23245
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:20am
Subject: favorite videoclips
As Mike is constantly showing his love for music videoclips, here are some favorites of mine. I once watched and taped movieclip programs. Now I only download some that interest me. Sure there are a lot of interesting things I've never seen, and never heard of, not being a follower at all.
Still:
Neworder "Round and Round" (the one with the models shot in black and white)
The Smiths "How Soon Is Now?"
Joy Division "Atmosphere"
Aphex Twin "Windowlicker"
Portishead "Only You"
Neworder "The Perfect Kiss" (in its supeficial simplicity, catches a live performance and the looks in the eyes of musicians in a way I have never seen equal)
and nearly everything by Chris Cunningham, from whom I have already selected "Windowlicker" and "Only You" (and these two beat "Come to Daddy" and "Frozen" by inches.
Ruy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23246
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:30am
Subject: Re: Staying power
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens" wrote:
"...the end title reads: 'The end of ONCE
UPON A TIME IN THE WEST,' thus making the whole movie a pre-title
sequence."
"I've never seen a print of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST that ended
that way!"
I've seen two different versions (the shoeter 1968 release and the
later extended version seen sometime in the late '70s and
early '80s), and the beginning and ending are the same for both: the
beginning credits end with "Directed by Sergio Leone" in white
letters coming down like a barricade in front of the train. In
reading the beginning credits one dosen't see the title ONCE UPON A
TIME IN THE WEST. It took me two or three viewings to realize
that. "The end of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST" occurs in the last
shot. It's possible there are more than two different prints in
circulation. (By the way, I was speaking with tongue in cheek when I
called the entire movie a pre-title sequence.)
Richard
23247
From: Andy Rector
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:39am
Subject: Re: Los Muertos end credits
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
> the ending of LOS MUERTOS reminded me of a Manny
> Farber painting since the space in the film is suddenly
> "miniaturized".
> Gabe
That pan down to the toy is extraordinary...the miniaturization, for
me, suddenly explodes into its opposite when the chicken walks into
the frame... suddenly there is this enormous animal next to a man.
The end credits/music made me want to flee, but I think Alonso is
right to put us back in Noe land after all that...
yours,
andy
23248
From: Aaron Graham
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:21am
Subject: Re: favorite videoclips
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Ruy Gardnier"
wrote:
> Neworder "The Perfect Kiss" (in its supeficial simplicity, catches
a live performance and the looks in the eyes of musicians in a way I
have never seen equal)
This is a favorite of mine as well. Directed by Jonathan Demme with
photography by Henri Alekan.
A personal favorite of mine is Tobe Hooper's zombie-infested clip for
Billy Idol's "Dancing with Myself", which was made during his Cannon
Group days of "Lifeforce" and "TCM 2".
I've always found it ironic that most film directors, when they
dabble in music video, very rarely move the camera. See, for
instance, Brian DePalma's clip for Bruce Springsteen's "Dancing in
the Dark" or the aforementioned Demme-New Order collaboration).
-Aaron
23249
From: Gabe Klinger
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:52am
Subject: Re: Los Muertos end credits
> That pan down to the toy is extraordinary...the miniaturization,
>for
> me, suddenly explodes into its opposite when the chicken
>walks into
> the frame... suddenly there is this enormous animal next to a
>man.
And Andy, who is too modest to post the link to his own piece,
talks more about this here:
http://www.fipresci.org/criticism/archive/archive_2004/vienna/los
muertos_arector.htm
Gabe
23250
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:17am
Subject: Re: favorite videoclips
I saw a very interesting music video just recently. It was a cover
of "Billie Jean" by a band called The Bates and, while I have no idea
who directed it or what year it's from or anything like that (the
copy I saw was taped by a friend, just by accident, off a late night
music video program here in Australia a couple of years ago), it was
a strikingly accurate, almost shot-by-shot "remake" of "Psycho"!
And it was very well done, too. The lead singer's ability to play
Perkins' Norman, for example, was uncanny; the nervous, child-like
shiftiness; the run; everything was pitch-perfect. The only major
difference between film and video, and it's an interesting one, was
that Marion, the obligatory Hitchcock blonde, was, in fact, made to
be a brunette!
23251
From:
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Demme (was: favorite videoclips)
Have never seen any of these favorites of Ruy's. Thanks! Will be watching for
them.
Admirers of Jonathan Demme should watch his protest video "Sun City". It is a
dynamic piece of montage. It proves montage filmmaking did not end around
1930, but is still going strong.
Mike Grost
23252
From:
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:03am
Subject: Re: Re: favorite videoclips
In a message dated 2/21/05 7:23:32 PM, machinegunmccain@y... writes:
> > Neworder "The Perfect Kiss" (in its supeficial simplicity, catches
> a live performance and the looks in the eyes of musicians in a way I
> have never seen equal)
>
And "The Perfect Kiss" is from their 1985 full-length LOW LIFE which just so
happens to be my vote for the greatest album of all-time. Both Demme's video
and the cover of LOW LIFE are central to New Order's genius navigation of the
public sphere.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23253
From: Henrik Sylow
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:32am
Subject: need etailers
I need links to etailers
GREEK
ISRAELIAN
INDIAN
POLISH
FINNISH
HUNGARIAN (and general east european)
MEXICO
ARGENTINA (and other south american)
SOUTH AFRICA
ICELAND
PHLLIPINES
Henrik
23254
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Henri Alekan
What a career that fellow had. Cocteau, Duvivier, Carne, Gance, Henri
Verneuil, Jules Dassin, Yves Allegret, William Wyler, Joseph Losey,
Straub/Huillet, Wim Wenders, and now Jonathan Demme!
-Matt
Aaron Graham wrote:
>This is a favorite of mine as well. Directed by Jonathan Demme with
>photography by Henri Alekan.
>
>
23255
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Henri Alekan
Add Amos Gitai to the deal. Alekan made his last films with him, and among
them the very amazing "Esther" and the three Golem films. Samuel Fuller is
an actor in two of them.
Did I trim it right this time, Gabe?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Teichman"
> What a career that fellow had. Cocteau, Duvivier, Carne, Gance, Henri
> Verneuil, Jules Dassin, Yves Allegret, William Wyler, Joseph Losey,
> Straub/Huillet, Wim Wenders, and now Jonathan Demme!
> -Matt
23256
From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:56pm
Subject: Borzage's MOONRISE on UK TV
UK-based members of 'A Film By...' may like to note that Frank
Borzage's late masterpiece MOONRISE is playing on BBC2 next Tuesday
(March 1st) at 1.30 PM. As far as I am aware, this sublime film,
which contains passages as beautiful as anything in THE NIGHT OF THE
HUNTER, has never been shown on British television before, though
there was a hard-to-find video release in the 80s.
23257
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:23pm
Subject: Re: Borzage's MOONRISE on UK TV
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
As far as I am aware, this sublime film,
> which contains passages as beautiful as anything in THE NIGHT OF
THE
> HUNTER, has never been shown on British television before, though
> there was a hard-to-find video release in the 80s.
Which happily is available at my branch of the LA Public Library.
Sublime's the word, all right. When UCLA showed their bodacious print
last year, film buffs came from all over, like flies. All those
Republic serials did lead somewhere, didn't they? The cinematographer
was John L. Russell, who is often misdescribed as a tv cameraman when
Hitchcock's decision to have him shoot Psycho is recounted. Dwan,
having seen Moonrise, must have told Yates, "It's my turn, now,"
because he made Driftwood the next year. That also begins with an
extremely beautiful night sequence shot by...John Alton.
23258
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:31pm
Subject: Lee Eun-ju
New and old fans of the films of Hong Sang-soo will be saddened to hear
that Lee Eun-ju, star of THE VIRGIN STRIPPED BARE BY HER BACHELORS and
BUNGEE JUMPING OF THEIR OWN, killed herself last week.
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200502/200502220032.html
- Dan
23259
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> New and old fans of the films of Hong Sang-soo will be saddened to hear
> that Lee Eun-ju, star of THE VIRGIN STRIPPED BARE BY HER BACHELORS and
> BUNGEE JUMPING OF THEIR OWN, killed herself last week.
>
> http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200502/200502220032.html
Not last week. Only yesterday. I literally feel sick.
I consider her performance in "Virgin" to have been the best part of
that wonderful film (even better than the remarkable black and white
cinematography).
It's just too stupid (and sad).
MEK
23260
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
> > New and old fans of the films of Hong Sang-soo will be saddened
to hear
> > that Lee Eun-ju, star of THE VIRGIN STRIPPED BARE BY HER
BACHELORS and
> > BUNGEE JUMPING OF THEIR OWN, killed herself last week.
> >
> >
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200502/200502220032.html
>
> Not last week. Only yesterday. I literally feel sick.
>
> I consider her performance in "Virgin" to have been the best part of
> that wonderful film (even better than the remarkable black and white
> cinematography).
>
> It's just too stupid (and sad).
That's the worst new I've heard since the election. Worse than the
election. We might still get our country back some day, but there was
only one Lee Eun-ju. Goodbye, Soo-Yung.
> MEK
23261
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:59pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> That's the worst new I've heard since the election. Worse than the
> election. We might still get our country back some day, but there was
> only one Lee Eun-ju. Goodbye, Soo-Yung.
Only 24 years old -- Lee graduated (belatedly) from college just last
Friday:
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200502/kt2005022216371710220.htm
MEK
23262
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lee Eun-ju
>> New and old fans of the films of Hong Sang-soo will be saddened to hear
>> that Lee Eun-ju, star of THE VIRGIN STRIPPED BARE BY HER BACHELORS and
>> BUNGEE JUMPING OF THEIR OWN, killed herself last week.
>>
>> http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200502/200502220032.html
>
> Not last week. Only yesterday. I literally feel sick.
The Korean guys at my workplace know her from TAE GUK GI, which was a
major hit. Apparently she wasn't an obscure art-film actress - her death
is big news there. - Dan
23263
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:46pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> The Korean guys at my workplace know her from TAE GUK GI, which was a
> major hit. Apparently she wasn't an obscure art-film actress - her
death
> is big news there.
She also recently starred in a very popular TV series.
Bringing this story somewhat closer to being on topic. It sounds a
bit like the Korean press may make the director of "Scarlet Letter"
(BYUN Hyuk) the "fall guy" for her death -- because he had her perform
nude scenes for this film -- and this involves much more stigma still
in Korea.
23264
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lee Eun-ju
> It sounds a bit like the Korean press may make the director of "Scarlet
> Letter" (BYUN Hyuk) the "fall guy" for her death -- because he had her
> perform nude scenes for this film -- and this involves much more stigma
> still in Korea.
And yet there's a fair amount of sex in Korean films.
Sounds as if the family gave the press the "racy" performance as the
reason for her depression. That kind of depression takes on a life of its
own, though, no matter what the impetus was. - Dan
23265
From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:41pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> Sounds as if the family gave the press the "racy" performance as the
> reason for her depression. That kind of depression takes on a life of its
> own, though, no matter what the impetus was. - Dan
Soo-Yung, her signature role, is a depressed girl. That's one of the things that
makes the performance so strong. The character is very convincingly "down"
the whole time, making her awakening at the very end all the more moving.
23266
From: Saul
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:49pm
Subject: Suicides (Was: Lee Eun-ju)
> > > Lee Eun-ju, star of THE VIRGIN STRIPPED BARE BY HER
> BACHELORS and
> > > BUNGEE JUMPING OF THEIR OWN, killed herself last week.
> > >
> http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200502/200502220032.html
> >
> > Not last week. Only yesterday. I literally feel sick.
This group is getting to be a depressing place. Suicides have littered
our posts for the last month or so. I just wrote a review of
"Breakfast with Hunter", and only hours after finishing it, heard of
Hunter S. Thompson's suicide on the nightly news - I added a
postscript upon hearing this and then posted the review. I think he
should be mentioned here, cause his writing inspired two good movies,
Art Linson's "Where the Buffalo Roam" (in which Bill Murray first
comes into his own as an actor), and "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"
which visualy captures a "I'm high/stoned/drunk/whatever" feeling that
many movies try for but fail to pull off..."awww....mama, can this
really be the end ... to be stuck inside of mobile with the memphis
blues again.........."
(And re. Adrian's recent post on the sped-up credits on Scorsese
films: I don't know how other countries deal with film credits, but
I've often noticed that they're sped up on Aussie TV. What's more,
Channel 10 have been progressively cutting further and further into TV
sitcomes with commerical time. To watch a show like "Seinfeld" they
often cut to a commercial before that segment has ended, sometimes
leaving off a line or two - and over the years they've got more bold,
and cut more and more out of such show to give a couple extra seconds
to commercials.)
23267
From: Chris Fujiwara
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 0:09am
Subject: Miao Tien
And on Saturday, Miao Tien, who played the father character in most
of Tsai Ming-liang's films (and was also in King Hu's Dragon Gate Inn
and many other films), passed away. Goodbye Dragon Inn thus turned
out to be his last film - a very appropriate farewell.
23268
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:58am
Subject: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
> All of this interest in their
> contributions and ideas is ultimately just a way of manipulating and
> controlling them. I may be wrong (and if anyone here knows their
> history and relationship better than I please contribute)but I sensed
> a certain ambivalence on Ogier's part towards Rivette.
I believe the manipulation part, which seems like a natural tendency
of many directors. Rivette's post-70's "improvisation" is a widely
misunderstood topic, it seems.
Ogier was at a screening of "Duelle" that I attended a year and a half
ago (seated right next to me). Her presence was not advertised (as
his was), and they seemed to be perfectly friendly. I assume she came
out of respect for him and the film, though I have no idea what their
true feelings are.
Jonathan Takagi
23269
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:17am
Subject: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
--- Jonathan Takagi wrote:
>
> Ogier was at a screening of "Duelle" that I attended
> a year and a half
> ago (seated right next to me). Her presence was not
> advertised (as
> his was), and they seemed to be perfectly friendly.
> I assume she came
> out of respect for him and the film, though I have
> no idea what their
> true feelings are.
>
Where was this? Was the print good? "Duelle" is my
absolute favorite Rivette. Ogier, Berto, Garcia and
Karagheuz achieve a kind fo synthesis as they evoke
Maria Casares, Marlene Dietrich and Louise Brooks.
Jean Babilee is incredibky strange. The use of actual
darkness as a kind of devouring monster is unique. And
thene there's that score, played "live" by Jean Wiener.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
23270
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:01am
Subject: Re: Suicides (Was: Lee Eun-ju)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
> What's more,
> Channel 10 have been progressively cutting further and further into
TV
> sitcomes with commerical time.
Yes! They try and make it look like a vision mixing error, but you so
know it isn't.
23271
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:51am
Subject: Re: Henri Alekan
I saw him lecture (with the aid of a translator) at the Edinburgh
Film Festival and he was a twinkly-eyed charmer!
I mainly knew his Cocteau work then, but have since come to love
TOPKAPI too, a film whose visual sparkle gave Martin Scorsese's
archivist a headache for a week.
23272
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:54am
Subject: Re: Borzage's MOONRISE on UK TV
> UK-based members of 'A Film By...' may like to note that Frank
> Borzage's late masterpiece MOONRISE is playing on BBC2 next
Tuesday
> (March 1st) at 1.30 PM. As far as I am aware, this sublime film,
> which contains passages as beautiful as anything in THE NIGHT OF
THE
> HUNTER, has never been shown on British television before, though
> there was a hard-to-find video release in the 80s.
The comparison with TNOTH is apt, since both rediscover silent movie
grammar and use it to remarkable poetic effect. I also love Rex
Ingram. "Why do you call everything 'Mister'?" "Ain't enough dignity
in the world."
The film HAS screened on UK TV though - my own copy is a copy of
Lindsay Anderson's off-air recording, made sometime in the late
eighties, I think.
23273
From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 0:04pm
Subject: Re: favorite videoclips
> The only major
> difference between film and video, and it's an interesting one, was
> that Marion, the obligatory Hitchcock blonde, was, in fact, made to
> be a brunette!
And we see her bare bottom. That might not be a major difference, but
it seemed major to me. After seeing her bottom I really didn't want
her to die.
23274
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:20pm
Subject: Re: favorite videoclips
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:
>
> And we see her bare bottom. That might not be a major difference, but
> it seemed major to me.
No, you're right. The video's definitely more explicit when she gets
ready for the shower.
Meanwhile, speaking of music video "remakes" of Hitchcock's work, has
anyone seen Joseph Kahn's video for Faith No More's "Last Cup of
Sorrow"? It's based on "Vertigo," but plays with it far more than The
Bates' video plays with "Psycho". For a start, Midge is played by a
transvestite and Carlotta has a beard!
The major interest for me, however, is Kahn's cutting for rhythm. The
orchestration of the scene at Ernie's -- the hypnotic cutting between
the profile shot of Madeleine and the shot of Scottie watching her --
isn't as it is in "Vertigo," but mimesis isn't at all the point of the
video and the effect in and of itself is fantastic.
23275
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
Her mother chaperoned her to Cannes. When Lee stayed up late one
night talking to a critic friend of mine and Hong Sang-Soo, she kept
knocking on the door to make sure sex wasn't transpiring.
23276
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:41pm
Subject: Re: Staying Power
I doubt if many people have walked out on the end credits of Cry
Freedom.
23277
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lee Eun-ju
> Her mother chaperoned her to Cannes. When Lee stayed up late one
> night talking to a critic friend of mine and Hong Sang-Soo, she kept
> knocking on the door to make sure sex wasn't transpiring.
Wow.
I cling to the idea that there's something sui generis and autonomous
about suicidal depression...but it's hard not to spin a whole
psychological narrative out of these little fragments of information. -
Dan
23278
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:58pm
Subject: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
> After seeing her bottom I really didn't want her to die.
Another tricky piece of data for the dossier on identification in cinema!
I know exactly what David means. The interesting thing is that there's a
whole branch of cinema that's seemingly dedicated to the proposition that
provoking sexual desire for a character and then killing her is a pleasing
and harmonious narrative figure.
Sometimes it's fruitful to take a page from psychoanalytic thought and
treat an extreme position and its opposite as fundamentally the same
thing. - Dan
23279
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:11pm
Subject: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Where was this? Was the print good? "Duelle" is my
> absolute favorite Rivette.
UCLA Archives has prints of all the Filles du feu. And Duelle has
recently been put out on DVD in France, I believe.
23280
From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:09pm
Subject: Re: Lee Eun-ju
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> I cling to the idea that there's something sui generis and
autonomous
> about suicidal depression...but it's hard not to spin a whole
> psychological narrative out of these little fragments of
information. -
I had a girlfriend who attempted suicide after spending quality time
with her family back in Europe: Her brother, father and a neighbor
had abused her as a child. She used to say, "Manic-depressives are
made, not born." Again, to keep this On-T, I think that Soo-Young is
quite depressed in Oh, Soo-Yung.
23281
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> UCLA Archives has prints of all the Filles du feu.
Really? So Talgadjieff coughed thme up, eh?
High time they were taken out and shown again!
"Duelle" and "Noroit" should be of particular interest
to those who fancy "Kill Bill" an original cinematic
idea.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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23284
From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> The interesting thing is that there's a
> whole branch of cinema that's seemingly dedicated to the proposition
that
> provoking sexual desire for a character and then killing her is a
pleasing
> and harmonious narrative figure.
Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. I was reading J. Hoberman's review of Noé's
"Irréversible" this evening and was struck by how important the
Belluci character's sexual attractiveness seemed to be to his
description of the rape scene: "gorgeous," "appetizingly wrapped in
the flimsiest of frocks," "beautiful". And raped before our very eyes,
as though it serves us right for desiring her.
I wonder what the effect would have been if Belluci was sexually
unattractive.
23285
From:
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:33am
Subject: Thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK?
Hey y'all! The Ransom Center at UT-Austin is showing an apparently difficult
to get print of BRIGHTON ROCK (1947) directed by one John Boulting who I've
never even heard of. Any thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK? Should I break a leg to see
it?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23286
From: BklynMagus
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:35pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
Dan writes:
> The interesting thing is that there's a whole branch of
cinema that's seemingly dedicated to the proposition that
provoking sexual desire for a character and then killing
her is a pleasing and harmonious narrative figure.
Would this be an example of ideology (the cultural
demand for punishment of sexual desire) triumphing
over ecriture?
Brian
23287
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:45pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
>
> Would this be an example of ideology (the cultural
> demand for punishment of sexual desire) triumphing
> over ecriture?
>
> Brian
Doesn't it always, though?
By the way, in France her name is spelled Lee Hunjoo. Which, if any,
is 'correct"?
23288
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
Matthew:
> And raped before our very eyes, as though it serves us right for
> desiring her.
Brian:
> Would this be an example of ideology (the cultural demand for punishment
> of sexual desire) triumphing over ecriture?
My take on this classic situation is that the killing or violence figures
in the narrative less as punishment for desire than as Another Good Thing
to Happen. Many of us don't like to think that there's joy in watching
bloodletting, but, boy, do audiences ever behave as if there is.
Of course, one can enjoy something and also take it as punishment on
another level, and one can often detect both layers.
In the slasher narrative popularized by HALLOWEEN, the violence seems even
more intimately connected to the sex: something softcore, followed by
something hardcore; a loophole in censorship. Carpenter was ambitious
enough to play with the theme of abstinence being a shield against bloody
death, but the films that followed were by no means so thematically
disciplined, and we see death as a followup to sex and desire in all sorts
of configurations. - Dan
23289
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:59pm
Subject: Re: Ogier on Rivette/Schroeter (was: Deux)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> UCLA Archives has prints of all the Filles du feu. And Duelle has
> recently been put out on DVD in France, I believe.
I don't find any sign that Duelle is (or has been) available on DVD in
France -- unless it was released by some entity that does not sell
products through any of the usual oneline suspects (FNAC, Alapage,
Amazon.fr).
I wish what you said WERE true, though.
MEK
23290
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:09pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> Matthew:
> My take on this classic situation is that the killing or violence
figures
> in the narrative less as punishment for desire than as Another
Good Thing
> to Happen.
The history of cinema is, among other things, the history of
attractive (desirable) young women being threatened by any number of
dire fates, including the "fate worse than death" an death itself. I
have always felt that the frustration and resentment triggered by
the fact that the "object of desire" cannot really be "possessed"
tends to result in a desire to erase the object, destroy it. Rape is
clearly such an effort to erase. Ultimately the killing of the
object is the only way out. JPC
23291
From: Ruy Gardnier
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Lee Eun-ju
cf. Superstar - The Karen Carpenter Story, directed by Todd Haynes.
That's very sad news.
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "hotlove666"
> Her mother chaperoned her to Cannes. When Lee stayed up late one
> night talking to a critic friend of mine and Hong Sang-Soo, she kept
> knocking on the door to make sure sex wasn't transpiring.
23292
From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:00pm
Subject: Revenge of the Middlebrow (was Re: Staying Power)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> I doubt if many people have walked out on the end credits of Cry
> Freedom.
Some of us didn't even make it as far as the opening credits!
Which brings up what seems to me a shared theme in recent posts.
First, we had several members of the group singing the praises of
James L. Brooks. Then we had some posts claiming that ORDINARY PEOPLE
was a better film than RAGING BULL (and thus fully deserving of its
best picture Oscar). And now...Bill Krohn says somthing nice about
Richard Attenborough!!!!!!!!
What I'm getting at is that several auteurist critics have suddenly
become very enthusiastic about the kinds of bland (it seems to me),
boring (it seems to me), conservative (it seems to me) middlebrow
filmmakers whose work tends to dominate the Academy Awards. I'd
always imagined that auteurists rejected this kind of 'cinema' out of
hand.
So is this a new trend in auteurist writing that I wasn't previously
aware of? Were those middlebrow critics of the 50s who regarded
Kramer, Zinnemann, Stevens and Wyler as superior to Mann, Ray, Hawks,
Boetticher, Sirk, and Tashlin right after all? Will Bill K. now start
researching the production history of DRIVING MISS DAISY? Will Adrian
Martin write the BFI Modern Classics book on A DANGEROUS MIND? Is JP
Coursodon preparing an article about SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE? Will the
next issue of POSITIF contain a dossier on the cinema of Mel Gibson?
Is Raymond Bellour studying the editing of FORREST GUMP? We should be
told!
23293
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
"Hey y'all! The Ransom Center at UT-Austin is showing an apparently
difficult to get print of BRIGHTON ROCK (1947) directed by one John
Boulting who I've never even heard of. Any thoughts on BRIGHTON
ROCK? Should I break a leg to see it?"
You should definitely see it. It's very hard to come by (I saw it
last 30 years ago)if just for the Attenborough performance and the
Greene-Rattigan screenplay.
John Boulting was Roy Boulting's brother and they had a production
company for awhile. They liked producing better than directing it
seems (Roy also directed; he was married to Hayley Mills and made a
70s horror picture with her.)
Richard
23294
From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Lee's Name (Was Back to identification)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
"By the way, in France her name is spelled Lee Hunjoo. Which, if any,
is 'correct'?"
Either is correct. At present there is no consistent way of
transliterating Korean names into roman letters. I've seen the same
Hangul (Korean character)for Lee(for example)spelled as Li, Ri, Ree
and Rhee. Native pronunciation of "Lee" is somewhere between an "L"
and an "R" sound depending on the region of the speaker.
Richard
23295
From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Clayfield"
wrote:
> I wonder what the effect would have been if Belluci was sexually
> unattractive.
Well, Imamura deals with this, to some extent, in "Akai satsui"
(Intentions of Murder). The raped heroine there is not especially
attractive (by normal movie standards) and initially comes across as
rather doltish and thick-headed.
23296
From: BklynMagus
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Back to identification (Was: favorite videoclips)
Dan writes:
> My take on this classic situation is that the killing or
violence figures in the narrative less as punishment
for desire than as Another Good Thing to Happen.
Good Thing in terms of providing pleasure to the
audience?
What I wonder about is whether it is the content
of the action that is providing the pleasure or the
technique/style used to convey that content. Or
a combination of both.
I remember watching "Eraser" with my then
husband, and we came to the scene where
Arnold's hand is nail-gunned to a refrigerator
door. At that instant I thought: "How on earth
could I consider such a scene 'entertaining'."
Maybe it was my first nascent realization of
ecriture vs. ideology.
If JPC is correct and ideology always triumphs
over ecriture, then all any auteur is left with
is technique. Since he cannot inscribe his moral
vision in his work, the best he can do is be as
technically accomplished as possibly in conveying
the prevailing ideology.
Side note: I do think ecriture can triumph, but
only in the strongest of auteurs: Mizoguchi,
Imamura, Mankiewicz, Fassbinder would be at the
top of my list, but there are others.
Dan:
> Many of us don't like to think that there's joy in
watching bloodletting, but, boy, do audiences ever
behave as if there is.
I remember being forced to leave the theater by
my then husband and best friend at the conclusion
of an opening night screening of "Scarface" in Times
Square. They told me they would pay for me to
come back to read the credits since fights had
broken out in an audience supercharged by what
they had just seen (I was so intent on the credits
that I needed to be told that there was a fight going
on two rows behind me).
JPC:
> I have always felt that the frustration and
resentment triggered by the fact that the "object of
desire" cannot really be "possessed" tends to result in
a desire to erase the object, destroy it.
In comedy the desire is often gratified, e.g. "His Girl
Friday" where Grant carries off Russell (in a tragedy
he would have carried off and raped her).
In a desirous, acquisitive, possession-fixated culture
such as ours, cinema espousing the ideology of
desire is to be expected. Cinema itself can be seen
as a mechanism of desire regulation: women desiring
in the most tasteful and elegant of ways; men boldly
announcing their ambitions and going after them. A
continual delight has been Mankiewicz's inversion of
these roles: women renouncing the role of eternal
supplicant (deep bow to Gene Tierney) and ambition
being placed under a microscope through switching
genders/sexes.
Cinema warns us when to curb desire: Montgomery
Clift should have remembered his place within the class
structure, married Shelley Winters, and given up all
hopes of Elizabeth Taylor (JLM's reworking of this through
Tennessee William's "Suddenly, Last Summer" is brilliant).
Dan's "Another Good Thing to Happen" is satisfaction of
the audience's desire to see desire punished fulfilled.
In that way, the lack of desire satisfaction in real life is
then cast as not suich a bad thing, preferable to getting
what you want and being punished and/or unhappy.
You can also read the collected works of Bertolucci as
the chronicle of a journey from a Western/Abrahamic
concept of desire to a Buddhist one. Bertoclucci
shifts the focus away from the object of desire to the
way in which desire is conceived and implemented
(which may be his most radical contribution to cinema).
Brian
23297
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK?
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
> John Boulting was Roy Boulting's brother and they
> had a production
> company for awhile. They liked producing better
> than directing it
> seems (Roy also directed; he was married to Hayley
> Mills and made a
> 70s horror picture with her.)
>
Raymond Durgnat writes about it in "A Mirror For
England." It's a film version of one of Graham
Greene's most important novels. I've never seen it,
but the prospect of Richard Attenbrough playing a
"punk avant la lettre" is too tantilizing to pass up.
The title refers to a brand of hard candy.
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23298
From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:26pm
Subject: Re: Thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK?
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Hey y'all! The Ransom Center at UT-Austin is showing an apparently
difficult
> to get print of BRIGHTON ROCK (1947) directed by one John Boulting
who I've
> never even heard of. Any thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK? Should I break
a leg to see
> it?
>
> Kevin John
>
> I don't know about breaking a leg, but I remember the film as a
fine semi-documentary thriller shor partly on location (popular
Brighton Beach, not unfaithful to Greene's novel (he collaborated on
the script), with a great oppening sequence where mobsters chase a
guy through the Sunday crowds on the boardwalk and beach. Boulting
was quite an important figure of British cinema in the forties to
sixties. His twin brother Roy produced most of the films he
directed, and John produced the films directed by Roy. Another JB
movie I like a lot is "The Magic Box" and "Private's Progress",
which I haven't see, has a good reputation. JPC
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23299
From: Robert Keser
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:53pm
Subject: Re: Thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK?
LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
"Any thoughts on BRIGHTON ROCK? Should I break a leg to see
it?"
The quite rarely seen BRIGHTON ROCK has the reputation of being one
of the major works of so-called Brit noir (along with THEY MADE ME A
FUGITIVE and THE SMALL BACK ROOM). Supposedly, BRIGHTON ROCK is
rivaled only by its American cousins BORN TO KILL, THE DEVIL THUMBS
A RIDE, and KISS ME DEADLY in propounding a ruthlessly brutal
worldview.
John Boulting also directed the crackling terrorist thriller SEVEN
DAYS TO NOON (1950), another title that merits revival and re-
evaluation, but he's most often noted as instrumental in putting
Peter Sellers into the spotlight, especially with the sharp labor
relations comedy I'M ALL RIGHT, JACK.
23300
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Revenge of the Middlebrow (was Re: Staying Power)
> What I'm getting at is that several auteurist critics have suddenly
> become very enthusiastic about the kinds of bland (it seems to me),
> boring (it seems to me), conservative (it seems to me) middlebrow
> filmmakers whose work tends to dominate the Academy Awards. I'd
> always imagined that auteurists rejected this kind of 'cinema' out of
> hand.
I wrote a post like this a few months ago, half-humorously complaining
about the number of auteurists who now like Lean and Kubrick. But, you
know, it's a good thing. It's painful not to agree with one's cohort, but
it keeps one questioning one's assumptions. It's much worse when an
orthodoxy is powerful enough to ensure uniformity.
And there's no easy way to identify the kind of cinema that should be
dismissed out of hand. Cukor seems like an Academy-fodder director at
first glance, but auteurists have followed their instincts and kept his
reputation alive, which I'm glad about.
> Will Bill K. now start researching the production history of DRIVING
> MISS DAISY?
DRIVING MISS DAISY isn't bad at all, actually.... - Dan
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