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23601

From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 4:29pm
Subject: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
> the
>> argument that PATHS OF GLORY, for instance, is actually a pro-war
>> movie, is an unusual one not often aired. The arguments involved in
>> showing that so-called anti-war films actually make the audience
> want
>> to see good guys kill bad guys are actually quite complex.
>
> Do you think this to be the case, DC? Because it's about as antiwar
> as you can get.

I see his point. What if you could get rid of those nasty generals with a
small aggressive action?

Something like THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS might be considered a real
anti-war film. - Dan
23602


From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:

>
> I see his point. What if you could get rid of those nasty generals
with a
> small aggressive action?

It's called fragging, and is not to be confused with war, which is
between nation-states.

I take your point, and so would Kubrick, who made Full Metal Jacket
to correct the errors of Paths of Glory. But Full Metal Jacket isn't
an antiwar film.
23603


From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
hl666 wrote:

> I take your point, and so would Kubrick,
who made Full Metal Jacket to correct the
errors of Paths of Glory.

Could you expand on this if you can/have time?

> But Full Metal Jacket isn't an antiwar film.

I always thought it was:

* Boot Camp as Ludovico Technique

* The randomness and horror of violence

* The purposelessness of conflict

* The dehumanization of individuals
necessary for creating an effective fighting unit

Brian
23604


From: thebradstevens
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 5:38pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
But Full Metal Jacket isn't an antiwar film.


Yes it is. The problem is that it's not a humanist anti-war film.
It's actually anti-everything. Pro-war and anti-war gestures are seen
as indistinguishable (the peace symbol next to the words 'born to
kill' on Joker's helmet). All human aspirations are mocked, the world
equated with a lavatory (the world of shit).

I suppose one might see the film as the product of a humanism that
has turned sour by following its own logic: if the best man can do
with his intelligence and organizing ability is create better and
more efficient ways of killing his fellow man, then all one can
resonably hope for is that the whole mess will be wiped out (the end
of the world being presented with a tone of celebration at the end of
DR STRANGELOVE).
23605


From: samfilms2003
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 5:48pm
Subject: Re: More on "The Aviator"
 
--> It's faked alright, but it's not imposssible to do either one, or so
> says John Erland who gave a discourse on color, optics and foolish
> decisions made by Technicolor Corp. not to explore color technology
> when there was interest by the majors. He also said that Technicolor
> makes 2 or 3 dye transfer prints at the director's request if they
> get the run. I saw one of those for THE AVIATOR when it was screened
> for the sci-tech crowd at the Goldwyn Theater. Needless to say it
> was stunning.


Tech IB dye transfer prints are something else. I was reffering to 2 Strip
and 3 Strip cameras and negatives. The film materials that would be
needed aren't made by anyone.

Why anyone would want to recreate that technology is beyond me.

As for dye transfer prints, the last one I saw was "Apocalypse Now Redux"
AFAIK none of the machines to do them are in any operational state,
not LA, Beijing or London.

-Sam
23606


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 5:56pm
Subject: Muratova (Was: my cinema weekend)
 
> But back to Asthenic Syndrome...
> I canít quite say why I hated the film so much, but it
> certainly had something to do with a gut level
> distaste for all her mean, petty, loud, angry
> characters. The worst of it is, she builds in a lot
> of humor around the films events, so I suppose weíre
> never supposed to take it all so seriously, making
> such a negative gut level reaction to the film seem
> like I just donít get the joke. But I hated this one
> enough to walk out about an hour and a half into it.

She's got an edge on her, doesn't she. One thing you can say in her
behalf is that she contextualizes the behavior of the lead character in
that 40-minute "introductory" sequence: we're plainly not meant to
identify totally with her when she refuses to treat a sick neighbor, or
continues to spit insults at an old man who keeps asking, "What have I
done to you to deserve this treatment?"

I didn't love THE ASTHENIC SYNDROME, so I won't defend it too strenuously,
but there's a contemplative, abstract side to her association of images
that I find appealing, even if I don't always know what to do with her
weird mixture of styles.

I still think her BRIEF ENCOUNTERS is a very good film. - Dan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
23607


From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 6:03pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> hl666 wrote:
>
> > I take your point, and so would Kubrick,
> who made Full Metal Jacket to correct the
> errors of Paths of Glory.
>
> Could you expand on this if you can/have time?
>
> > But Full Metal Jacket isn't an antiwar film.
>
> I always thought it was:
>
> * Boot Camp as Ludovico Technique
>
> * The randomness and horror of violence
>
> * The purposelessness of conflict
>
> * The dehumanization of individuals
> necessary for creating an effective fighting unit
>
> Brian

All true, but Sam Fuller, when JR and I took him to see it in Santa
Barbara, thought it was a pro-war film! (Christa tells me he actually
liked the film a lot, but he was sure mad that day.)

The errors of Paths being just what Dan says - making you hate
Menjoue et al enough to kill them - are inherent in the anti-war film
as a genre, and are part and parcel of a certain type of story and
identification structure. So while I do consider Paths a very
effective anti-war film, it contains the seeds of its own subversion,
which is subversion by the dominant ideology, not by the filmmaker's
ecriture!

There is subversion of the other kind going on, but it is largely
operative at the level of the circular visual forms in the film,
suggesting that Douglas's intervention - which neither saves the
condemned men nor stops the war - is futile because it's just another
one of those circles: ie because he is part of the hierarchy that
generates them.

Full Metal Jacket is a film that shows the formation of a group mind
(Pt. 1) and its malfunctioning (Pt. 2). (Cf. Deleuze on Kubrick in
general.) But even in its malfunctioning, the scattered pieces of the
group mind are still acting out the impulses programmed into it in
Boot Camp: racism, misogyny, murder.

On another level, the film is - as SK said at the time - an attack on
the structure of H'wd narrative filmmaking, the spine that was still
present in Paths. On that level Part 2 is an anti-narrative after the
very tight narrative of the opening, where you just want to kill that
sergeant. If a (H'wd) film is like a war, as Fuller says in Pierrot,
watching the group mind scatter into an incoherent collection of
fragments subverts narrative cinema - until the sniper appears on the
last patrol, and the screws of suspense are tightened again.

Now that I've seen The Big Red One more or less whole, I think I know
what pissed Sam off: the scene where Joker kills the young sniper.
Sam has Marvin challenge the squad to kill the young German sniper,
then take his pants down and spank him. But I see Joker killing the
sniper as parallel to Pyle killing the Sergeant: Her face, like
Pyle's when he has gone insane, is what the Sgt. calls "a war face,"
the image of the death instinct that is programming the machine of
war and the machine for forging group minds alike.

I wrote about this in CdC at the time the film came out, and an
expanded English version appeared in a book called Incorporations
edited by Joanthan Crary. In the expanded version I argue that the
faces of Pyle and the sniper are like the closeup of Lola Montez
before her last jump, beaded with sweat - a subversion of the whole
machinery of the spectacle run by Ustinov. A French wroter on Ophuls
named Guerin made me aware of the importance of that shot.

Weirdly enough, the opening shot of FMJ is the same as the opening
shot of Lola Montes. Kubrick is just carrying Ophuls' subversion a
bit further by killing off the Ustinov character halfway through - as
he kills off HAL before the narrative ends and something else begins
in 2001.

The result is a film where you aren't rooting for peace against war,
kind of like The Big Red One, which provokes the same puzzled
reactions - war film? antiwar film? prowar film? - when people stop
rehashing the heroic saga of the restoration and start dealing with
the film itself. Some Italian journalists started to do that a bit in
Torino when Christa and I did a press conference, but just when it
was geting interesting, we had to make way for Sarah Michelle Gellar,
taking questions on The Grudge.

She's not as cute in person, BTW, but she seems to be pretty sharp.
23608


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 6:23pm
Subject: Re: More on "The Aviator"
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "samfilms2003" wrote:
>
"Tech IB dye transfer prints are something else. I was reffering to 2
Strip and 3 Strip cameras and negatives. The film materials that
would be needed aren't made by anyone."

Erland is the sci-tech governor of the AMPAS and the "inventor" of
blue screen. He claims that he could make the necessary materials.
He also says there are operational specimen of the 2 and 3 strip
cmaeras in existence. Of course it's not commercially feasible to
use them. (He also talked about a revolutionary new projection
system that wasn't put into production but was given an award by the
Academy anyway.)

"Why anyone would want to recreate that technology is beyond me."

Because it can be done I guess. The technological mind set is beyond
my understanding too.

"As for dye transfer prints, the last one I saw was 'Apocalypse Now
Redux' AFAIK none of the machines to do them are in any operational
state, not LA, Beijing or London."

Well, Image Works made the claim for the dye transfer print of THE
AVIATOR, and Erland said Technicolor would strike "2 or 3 prints at
the request of the director for archival purposes if they got the
print run." David Coons visited Technicolor a few years ago and said
at that time the machine in Los Angeles was operational. It may have
been around the time of "Apocalypse," and Imasge Works might have
been conning the audience that night (I wouldn't put it past them.)
The print at the Goldwyn may have looked so great just because it was
projected at that venue.

Richard
23609


From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Speck/Haneke
 
On Tuesday, March 1, 2005, at 04:35 AM, hotlove666 wrote:

> It has many levels. Who's making the tape? What for? How coerced is
> his participation? There are no unambiguous answers to any of those
> questions, and I suspect that the ambiguity of the dispositif is what
> is really unsettling - even more than the breasts. Who is behind the
> camera, and what is their agenda?

Just what do these tapes look like? Are they kind of to-camera
"confession" videos? What's with the breasts? I'm intrigued.

craig.
23610


From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
> All true, but Sam Fuller, when JR and I took him to see it in Santa
> Barbara, thought it was a pro-war film! (Christa tells me he
actually
> liked the film a lot, but he was sure mad that day.)

If a (H'wd) film is like a war, as Fuller says in Pierrot,
> watching the group mind scatter into an incoherent collection of
> fragments subverts narrative cinema - until the sniper appears on
the
> last patrol, and the screws of suspense are tightened again.
>
> Now that I've seen The Big Red One more or less whole, I think I
know
> what pissed Sam off: the scene where Joker kills the young sniper.
> Sam has Marvin challenge the squad to kill the young German sniper,
> then take his pants down and spank him. But I see Joker killing the
> sniper as parallel to Pyle killing the Sergeant: Her face, like
> Pyle's when he has gone insane, is what the Sgt. calls "a war
face," > the image of the death instinct that is programming the
machine of war and the machine for forging group minds alike.
>
> I wrote about this in CdC at the time the film came out, and an
> expanded English version appeared in a book called Incorporations
> edited by Joanthan Crary.


I remember that screening with Sam and Bill and subsequent coffee-
shop conversation a little bit differently from him, perhaps because
Sam soon afterwards gave an interview that offered a somewhat
different emphasis to his reactions. (He said in the interview--and I
believe to us as well--that he especially admired the look of hatred
in the face of the dying sniper.) As I recall, Sam's two main
objections to the film were (1) he disliked all war films that dealt
with basic training, and (2) this was the sort of movie that might
make a teenage boy say to his girlfriend that fighting in a war was
neat. (1) isn't really a point that can be debated, but when it comes
to (2), I think Sam had a point, however reluctant I was to see it at
the time. But this doesn't invalidate Kubrick's film; it just
complicates his already very complicated attraction to war as a
subject. (BTW, a good example of an antiwar film that doesn't promote
hatred for anyone is Renoir's GRANDE ILLUSION. At the old New Yorker
theater in Manhattan, Dan Talbot used to like to feature that on a
double bill with PATHS OF GLORY, perhaps to highlight the dialectic
between those films.)

I should add that Bill's article in INCORPORATIONS is not only by far
the best piece ever written on FULL METAL JACKET. It's also one of
the very best pieces on Kubrick ever written by anyone--which makes
it a pity that it's so out of reach to most people. (I have a copy of
INCORPORATIONS, but most people don't.) In fact, Bill is the only
critic who ever tackled the narrative diffusion in the film's second
half; everyone else scratched their heads and ignored it.

Bill, you may not have this piece online, but if you do, you'd be
doing this chat group an enormous service if you posted it.

Jonathan Rosenbaum
23611


From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 6:59pm
Subject: More on Muratova
 
>
> Since seeing these two films, I've been desperately seeking out her
> other works, but with little success. There are only two available
on
> DVD with english subtitles - 'Passions' from US, and 'Chekhov's
> Motivs' from Russia. I'll probably have to buy these sooner or
later.

I still have to catch up with PASSIONS (I have the DVD), but
CHEKHOV'S MOTIFS has got to be one of the greatest provocations in
modern cinema. THE ASTHENIC SYNDROME--which I personally adore,
difficulties and all--has the good excuse of being a visionary look
at the contemporary world (and in some ways one of the most
poetically apt that I know), but CHEKHOV'S MOTIFS has no such excuse,
as far as I can tell. Its dialogue in the first half largely consists
of endless repetitions during an extended family meal; the distended
action in the second half, consisting of a wedding, is even more
intractable. To make matters worse, the first time I saw this film--
a review assignment for the Reader--was on a really lousy video
transfer. But I also found to my amazement that I couldn't tear
myself away from it. All of which convinces me that Muratova is some
sort of mad genius that we'll have to spend years catching up with.
It's hard to figure out how she keeps finding the budgets for her
wild movies. I'm positively in awe of her achievement.

Jonathan
23612


From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Speck/Haneke
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>

>
> Just what do these tapes look like? Are they kind of to-camera
> "confession" videos? What's with the breasts? I'm intrigued.
>
Speck, with a blonde flip hairdo, and his black cellmate,
unidentified, are on screen, sitting on either side of a little
table - possibly in the "Education Room" at Statesville - being
interviewed by the usneen inmate behind the camera. It looks like it
was shot on Scotch tape - 1988 home video capabilities in the hands
of amateurs.

Speck answers questions about the murders, very cynical and
unrepetant (and mendacious on one point: He skips over raping the
last girl he killed, saying that when she got undressed she "didn't
have anything that interested him." Possibly for the benefit of his
cellmate...), then takes off his pants and shirt to reveal that he's
wearing blue women's underpants and has grown full-sized breasts.

He says that if people on the outside knew how much fun he was having
inside, they'd let him go. He and his cellmate are shown cutting a
small mountain of what they claim is cocaine, and lighting up what
they claim are joints. During the full tape - not shown on A&E, but
described in an encyclopedia of serial killers - Speck says he can't
count how many sexual partners he's had behind bars, speaks about the
delights of being anally penetrated and goes down on his cellmate on
camera.

It was sold to A&E and aired well after Speck's death by heart attack
in 1991 - I think it aired 5 years later. Maybe that's when whoever
shot it, or had it, got out.

The A&E wraparound speculates about Speck's psychopathology in
killing the girls, rather interestingly, based on the evidence, not
on Speck's confessions, and demands prison reform (after some good
reporting on overcrowding) - based on the claims of having fun, which
are taken at face value and moralistically decried, unlike the dope,
which is described as probably false. The matter was raised in the
state legislature, where all thought of reform or change died, that
being of course the function of the state legislature.

It's unlikely that either the tape or the commentary (critical of
what a quarter century of law-and-order political opportunism had
wrought) would air today. My critique of the overall program, which
seems to be coming from some vanished world, is a critique of
the "dispositif" (like Speck, the reporter on camera is speaking
to/for some big Other in the offspace), not the now-suppressed
investigative reporting that comes through in it, as SOME truth about
Speck and prisons comes through in its Prison Television counterpart.

All I can say from an esthetico-political standpoint is that the use
of the "dispositif" of television news in the prison tape seems to me
to be more complex and subversive than the its use in the wraparound.
Ironically, both were produced, I'm pretty sure, to make money.
23613


From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 8:14pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
>
> I remember that screening with Sam and Bill and subsequent coffee-
> shop conversation a little bit differently from him, perhaps
because
> Sam soon afterwards gave an interview that offered a somewhat
> different emphasis to his reactions. (He said in the interview--and
I
> believe to us as well--that he especially admired the look of
hatred
> in the face of the dying sniper.) As I recall, Sam's two main
> objections to the film were (1) he disliked all war films that
dealt
> with basic training, and (2) this was the sort of movie that might
> make a teenage boy say to his girlfriend that fighting in a war was
> neat. (1) isn't really a point that can be debated, but when it
comes
> to (2), I think Sam had a point, however reluctant I was to see it
at
> the time. But this doesn't invalidate Kubrick's film; it just
> complicates his already very complicated attraction to war as a
> subject.

Thanks - correction accepted. But didn't you think of the killing of
the sniper when you finally saw the end of the Germany section, now
that Germany is back in Big Red One? If Sam liked the sniper's war
face, he appreciated what Kubrick was doing, but Sam was doing
something very different by having Marvin spank the Nazi kid. Of
course, Hamill confronting the Nazi's war face in the crematorium
leads to a different result, which is then undone by Marvin's
insistence on saving Schroeder's life... The Big Red One is at least
as complex in its attitudes toward war (a good war, the one Sam
volunteered to fight) as Full Metal Jacket is -- and Kubrick was
using a war that was as discredited when his film came out as Iraq
will be in 2014.

To reiterate an earlier remark, the one film I've seen that raises
questions about the Iraq Invasion in a way that I consider on a level
w. Sam and Kubrick is David O. Russell's Soldiers Pay, available as a
supplement on the new edition of Uncovered.
23614


From: Craig Keller
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 8:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Speck/Haneke
 
On Tuesday, March 1, 2005, at 03:05 PM, hotlove666 wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> Just what do these tapes look like? Are they kind of to-camera
>> "confession" videos? What's with the breasts? I'm intrigued.
>>
> Speck, with a blonde flip hairdo, and his black cellmate,
> unidentified, are on screen, sitting on either side of a little
> table - possibly in the "Education Room" at Statesville - being
> interviewed by the usneen inmate behind the camera. It looks like it
> was shot on Scotch tape - 1988 home video capabilities in the hands
> of amateurs.

I've just discovered that stills from the video can be seen here (some
in two-frame animated .gif format) --

http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/speck.html

craig.
23615


From: hotlove666
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Speck/Haneke
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
> >
> I've just discovered that stills from the video can be seen here
(some
> in two-frame animated .gif format) --
>
> http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/speck.html
>
> craig.

Yep, that's it, although you need to see and hear it to get the stuff
I was talking about. It's hilarious that Bill Kurtis (the trench-
coated on-camera reporter in the A&E segment) is threatening to sue
over bits of the tape being on the Internet. What's he planning on
doing with them??
23616


From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
hl666 writes:

> The errors of Paths being just what Dan says -
making you hate Menjoue et al enough to kill
them - are inherent in the anti-war film as a
genre, and are part and parcel of a certain
type of story and identification structure.

But I also think that you can get mad enough
that you would decide that you want no part of
the machinery of war -- that is an option rarely,
if ever explored (though I think Coppola glances
at it at the end of Apocalypse Now). Eliminating
one piece of the machinery is futile since the
hierarchy has dozens of back-ups.

> But even in its malfunctioning, the scattered pieces
of the group mind are still acting out the impulses
programmed into it in Boot Camp: racism,
misogyny, murder.

The second half always struck me as a dispersement
of an evil entiity and its reconstitution (like one of those
globular nemeses in Hanna-Barbera cartoons which
are thought to be destroyed by a blast from a laser
gun, but who come back together even stronger, their
power enhanced by absorbing the energy from the ray
gun). The dehumanized, brainwashed Marines come
together as a force of violence when violence is
directed at them. I have always loved the opening
since the loss of hair has always been a symbol on Tarot
cards for a loss/lack of wisdom -- as if Basic Training
is a time to empty the recruits' minds of what they know
and replace it with the wisdom/way of war.

> Now that I've seen The Big Red One more or less
whole, I think I know what pissed Sam off: the scene
where Joker kills the young sniper.

I think Fuller was more of an optimist while Kubrick
followed the logic of his system to its ultimate conclusion,
no matter how grim.

> Sam has Marvin challenge the squad to kill the young
German sniper, then take his pants down and spank him.

But once you spank instead of kill, you are no longer
part of the hierarchy: you have moved from seeing your
opponent as an implaccable enemy to regarding him as
a human being capable of reform. Empathy is not a
desirable attribute in a soldier/killing machine.

> But I see Joker killing the sniper as parallel to Pyle
killing the Sergeant: Her face, like Pyle's when he has gone
insane, is what the Sgt. calls "a war face," the image of the
death instinct that is programming the machine of war and
the machine for forging group minds alike.

For me, Joker killing the sniper is where Kubrick removes
the last remnant of humanity that the audience can cling to
in the film The character who saw the dual nature of the war
has been totally absorbed into the hierarchy -- shit in a world
of shit. Fuller would have been offended, I think, because he
liked soldiers and might have felt that war could not snuff out
their humanity that completely.

> I wrote about this in CdC at the time the film came out,
and an expanded English version appeared in a book called
Incorporations edited by Joanthan Crary.

I will look for it in used bookstores in New York.

> The result is a film where you aren't rooting for peace
against war, kind of like The Big Red One, which provokes
the same puzzled reactions - war film? antiwar film? prowar
film?

I think Fuller regarded WWII as a necessary war -- what he
seemed to be most interested in was the humanity of the men
who fought in wars. He loved soldiers, but hated war.

I think Kubrick deplores the the system of dehumanization
and hatred cultivation that makes war possible. What is
interesting is that you you see very few senior officers in
FMJ. Even the Sgt is just a lowly cog in the Marine machine
(there is something poignant/pathetic about the way Kubrick
costumed him for his death scene).

Kubrick is more interested in systems -- how they work and
how they extinguish the humanity Fuller champions. Barry
Lyndon could be a character out of Fuller: he fires into the air
when his stepson misfires. But in Kubrick's world displaying
your humanity only gets you maimed and exiled.

Brian
23617


From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
>
> > In fact, Bill is the only
> critic who ever tackled the narrative diffusion in the film's
second
> half; everyone else scratched their heads and ignored it.
> > Jonathan Rosenbaum

Actually, another article does exist which deals with the film's
separate "two parts" from a pyschoanalytic perspective.

"Floating 'In a World of Shit' - FULL METAL JACKET's Excremental
Vision" which first appeared in FILM AND PHILOSOPHY 1 (1994) and
should be online.

But Jonathan is right. Both Bill's article and the relationship of
PATHS to FMJ need further discussion.

Tony Williams
23618


From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 9:57pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
If Sam liked the sniper's war
> face, he appreciated what Kubrick was doing...

I think we also should not neglect the extended close-up on
Joker's face as he makes the "mercy killing decision" concerning the
sniper rather than leaving her to the "motherfucking rats" as Animal
Mother suggests. It shows the slow development of a hardening
resolution leading to Joker finally showing his "war face" rather
than being urged by Sgt. Hartman to do so in the barracks. The scene
ends following the shooting with Rafterman uttering the lines "Real
Hardcore" - or words to that effect.

Then out supposedly objective narrator becomes an anonymouus figure
in his platoon singing "The Mickey Mouse song."

Tony Williams
23619


From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 11:21pm
Subject: Fuller
 
> I think Fuller was more of an optimist while Kubrick
> followed the logic of his system to its ultimate conclusion,
> no matter how grim.


Maybe some of the details in THE BIG RED ONE make him more
optimistic. But the paradoxical thing about Sam is that, in spite of
being such a life-enhancing individual, he had the bleakest and most
pessimistic view of humanity of anyone I've ever known. And that's in
his films, too.
23620


From: Matt Armstrong
Date: Tue Mar 1, 2005 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Fuller
 
>
> Maybe some of the details in THE BIG RED ONE make him more
> optimistic. But the paradoxical thing about Sam is that, in spite
of
> being such a life-enhancing individual, he had the bleakest and
most
> pessimistic view of humanity of anyone I've ever known. And that's
in
> his films, too.

I just saw "Underworld USA" and I completely agree. The movie was
incredibly lurid and bleak. Cliff Robertson's street thug reminded
me of the killer dog in "White Dog." Those who love him hold out
hope for reform, but forces beyond his control have already deformed
him and cast his fate. "The Big Red One" looks optimistic by
comparison.
23621


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 0:18am
Subject: Re: Fuller
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Armstrong"
wrote:

>
> I just saw "Underworld USA" and I completely agree. The movie was
> incredibly lurid and bleak. Cliff Robertson's street thug reminded
> me of the killer dog in "White Dog." Those who love him hold out
> hope for reform, but forces beyond his control have already deformed
> him and cast his fate. "The Big Red One" looks optimistic by
> comparison.

In a great article about Fuller and the idea of conditioning, Tag Gallagher
referred to the heroes of Big Red One as ''four white dogs' fighting their way
across Europe. He makes White Dog a central film in that respect. But he also
talks about the ecriture and what it's doing. Don't know where that one's
archived.
23622


From: Jason Guthartz
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 0:34am
Subject: Re: Fuller
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> In a great article about Fuller and the idea of conditioning, Tag
Gallagher
> referred to the heroes of Big Red One as ''four white dogs' fighting
their way
> across Europe. He makes White Dog a central film in that respect.
But he also
> talks about the ecriture and what it's doing. Don't know where that
one's
> archived.

Here it is:
http://www.filmint.nu/netonly/eng/fuller.htm

"Fuller himself is part of a squad of white dogs in The Big Red One
who kill as trained in seven countries, until the death camps, when
they kill with rage."
23623


From: samfilms2003
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 3:08am
Subject: Re: More on "The Aviator"
 
> He claims that he could make the necessary materials.

But why ???


> He also says there are operational specimen of the 2 and 3 strip
> cmaeras in existence. Of course it's not commercially feasible to
> use them.

Again, why use a camera the size of minivan when integral tripack
film gives better results - and did for years on fims printed Technicolor IB ?


> Well, Image Works made the claim for the dye transfer print of THE
> AVIATOR,

Where ? They did a digital emulation in After Effects, Photoshop, and
by using 2 of 3 color channels in a Cintel telecine.

Again, you cannot get a dye transfer print now anywhere.

-Sam
23624


From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 5:52am
Subject: Re: Pause!
 
J. Mabe wrote:

>I also saw Peter
>Kubelka speak and present his Metaphoric Films. This
>is the third time Iíve seen him speak and my viewings
>of each of his films (except for Poetry and Truth)
>probably number around a dozen apiece. Each time I
>hear him speak he speaks on entirely new subjects and
>subsequently, each time I see his films they seem like
>entirely new works. I still donít ďgetĒ or enjoy
>Pause, but other that that it was a joy to see.
>
I think _Pause!_ is a key Kubelka work, related to his post-_Mosaik im
Vertrauen_ oeuvre as punctuation mark to formula. As I suggested during
the "acting" thread some months back, the film is a knockdown argument
in itself for the importance of acting (especially under the rubric of
Fred C.'s "critical approach," whose medium purism seems to be a nod to
Kubelka's).

Josh: out of curiosity, were you sitting in the first few rows during
the NYFF lecture? I'm sure you know why I'm asking...

-Matt
23625


From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 6:36am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
I'm not a big fan of Full Metal Jacket, but there are things in
there I do like--the training sequence slapstick, the way the last
sequence is mapped out by Kubrick (without showing the least bit
effort of doing it) so that the whole space surrounding the sniper
is clear in your mind and if you suddenly stepped into the picture
you'd know exactly where you are, and how to get around (I can still
picture the location in my head, actually, as I write this).

Bill, scanned your interesting piece on the movie in Senses of
Cinema; is that the one Jonathan was talking about? An edited
version, perhaps?

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> If a (H'wd) film is like a war, as Fuller says in Pierrot,
> watching the group mind scatter into an incoherent collection of
> fragments subverts narrative cinema - until the sniper appears on
the
> last patrol, and the screws of suspense are tightened again.

Maybe my biggest problem with the film was the sniper sequence--to
(SPOILERS) shoot the mysterious assassin, and find out it's a young
girl--that smacked of some old World War 2 sequence or story I've
seen or read (can't remember off the top of my head tho), and hardly
the moral shock required by the film.

Didn't help that I can't forget the ending of the novel--which I
thought was far stronger than what Kubrick actually shot. Ever read
that?
23626


From: Jonathan Rosenbaum
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:03am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
> Bill, scanned your interesting piece on the movie in Senses of
> Cinema; is that the one Jonathan was talking about? An edited
> version, perhaps?


I can't find it in SENSES OF CINEMA, but I just came across the
piece online, here:

www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0104.html

Jonathan
23627


From: Noel Vera
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:30am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
> I can't find it in SENSES OF CINEMA, but I just came across the
> piece online, here:
>
> www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0104.html
>
> Jonathan

I've got that saved, then. I must have misremembered seeing it in
Senses.
23628


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 9:02am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
>
> I can't forget the ending of the novel--which I
> thought was far stronger than what Kubrick actually shot. Ever read
> that?

Well, I forgot it. But the original ending of the movie - in the
script - was Joker dying: cut to his funeral. I guess when principal
photography lasts a year the temptation to tinker is well-nigh
irresistible.
23629


From: thebradstevens
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:30am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
I must have misremembered seeing it in
> Senses.

I wrote about the film for SENSES - maybe that's what you're
remembering.
23630


From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 1:19pm
Subject: re: Full Metal Jacket
 
Apart from the fine pieces by Tony and Brad which address the two-part
structure of FULL METAL JACKET, I also highly recommend one of the best
articles on Kubrick I have ever read: Dana Polan's "Jack and Gilles" (yep,
that's Deleuze!), which is in the tremendous ' special film issue' of ART &
TEXT, no. 34, 1989. Polan starts (as Bill did too, I think) from Kubrick's
own statement (to M. Ciment in POSITIF) that he wanted to 'blow up the
narrative structures' in this film.

Adrian
23631


From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 1:24pm
Subject: A Sign of Intelligent Life in the Universe
 
I heard a wonderful story today about a guy who is a much sought-after
director in Australian TV drama.

This director loves to change the usual way of shooting and staging TV. No
breaking the thing down into conventional shots and inserts, no lazy
handheld follow-the-action stuff.

Instead, he sets his camera up the back of the set on some lateral tracks,
and starts guiding the actors: 'You'll move to this mark, then this mark' -
choreographing different patterns of bodies and lines of action in the
long-take mise en scene.

When he first tried this, some actors and crew revolted. But when they saw
the results, they said: 'OK, now we get it.'

And do you know how this director announces his method on set? He tells
everyone: "Now we are going to do a Preminger shot."

Otto lives! (That's a story for you, Chris.)

Adrian
23632


From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 1:19pm
Subject: Re: A Sign of Intelligent Life in the Universe
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:

> I heard a wonderful story today about a guy who is a much sought-after
> director in Australian TV drama.

Who's that, Adrian?
23633


From: J. Mabe
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 1:34pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pause!
 
--- Matt Teichman wrote:
> Josh: out of curiosity, were you sitting in the
> first few rows during
> the NYFF lecture? I'm sure you know why I'm
> asking...
>
> -Matt

No I wasn't. When I saw him at the Austrian Cultural
Forum, he strung a copy of Schwechater through the
entire (small) audience, but didn't cut it. I sat in
the far back at Views, and he did. And this time
around I sat in the second row, hopeing he would give
out more clips, but it didn't happen. Oh well.




__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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23634


From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
> > the
> >> argument that PATHS OF GLORY, for instance, is actually a pro-war
> >> movie, is an unusual one not often aired. The arguments involved
in
> >> showing that so-called anti-war films actually make the audience
> > want
> >> to see good guys kill bad guys are actually quite complex.
> >
> > Do you think this to be the case, DC? Because it's about as
antiwar
> > as you can get.

Well, this is Lester's argument: if it weren't for the stoopid
generals, a good officer like Kirk Douglas could lead us out there
and we could all kill Germans more efficiently. It's not that we hate
Menjou and MacReady so much we cd kill them, just that the actual
running of the war is a side-issue. Plus you can't easily use WWI as
a model since most people agree it was wasteful and unnecessary. Now,
if you attack WWII successfully, you're really proving your point...

PATHS OF GLORY is a great film ABOUT war, and about life and death
too. Lester is a Kubrick admirer, and his gripe with the film seems
to be a categorisation thing rather than a dislike of the movie
itself.
23635


From: Dave Kehr
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 4:14pm
Subject: Re: A Sign of Intelligent Life in the Universe
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> I heard a wonderful story today about a guy who is a much sought-
after
> director in Australian TV drama.
>
> This director loves to change the usual way of shooting and
staging TV. No
> breaking the thing down into conventional shots and inserts, no
lazy
> handheld follow-the-action stuff.
>
> Instead, he sets his camera up the back of the set on some lateral
tracks,
> and starts guiding the actors: 'You'll move to this mark, then
this mark' -
> choreographing different patterns of bodies and lines of action in
the
> long-take mise en scene.

Sounds more like Oscar Jaffe in "Twentieth Century" than OP.
23636


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
--- cairnsdavid1967 wrote:


> Well, this is Lester's argument: if it weren't for
> the stoopid
> generals, a good officer like Kirk Douglas could
> lead us out there
> and we could all kill Germans more efficiently. It's
> not that we hate
> Menjou and MacReady so much we cd kill them, just
> that the actual
> running of the war is a side-issue. Plus you can't
> easily use WWI as
> a model since most people agree it was wasteful and
> unnecessary. Now,
> if you attack WWII successfully, you're really
> proving your point...
>

This misses the real issue which relates to the class
system. Macready only VISITS the trenches. He does not
fight. Menjou doesn't even visit. Douglas is in the
fray with his troops -- though he doesn't have to be,
which is Menjou's message to him. Douglas questions
the class system -- and pays the piper.

> PATHS OF GLORY is a great film ABOUT war, and about
> life and death
> too. Lester is a Kubrick admirer, and his gripe with
> the film seems
> to be a categorisation thing rather than a dislike
> of the movie
> itself.
>

And it's much more effective than "How I Won the War"
whoich deals with many of the smae issues but in a far
more frivolous way.

I prefer "The Bed-Sitting Room."




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23637


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 5:48pm
Subject: USA Today on Marty
 
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-03-01-new-scorsese-film_x.htm






__________________________________
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23638


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 6:53pm
Subject: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-03-01-new-scorsese-film_x.htm

Is this Infernal Affairs or something else?


>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
23639


From: Brandon
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Samuel Fuller
 
Thanks for everyone's help with my Sam Fuller video project. Looks like
I've found 'em all except some of the TV work, which I can live
without. Here's the list, in case anyone else was looking for these titles:

eurotrashcinema.com:
The Madonna and the Dragon

deepdiscountdvd.com:
Girls In Prison
Shark!
Meanest Men in the West, which is only $6, but I've seen enough
warnings about this title so I'm not going to get it.

Darker Image in Maine (darkerimagevid@w...):
Baron of Arizona
The Crimson Kimono
Fixed Bayonets
I Shot Jesse James
Park Row

superhappyfun.com:
Hell & High Water

coming soon to region-1 DVD:
The Big Red One
Dead Pigeon on Beethoven Street
Forty Guns
House of Bamboo

Fuller's "Run of the Arrow" will be on Turner Classic Movies on Thursday,
May 5th. On the same night - five Luis Bunuel films! "Simon of the
Desert"!! Oh happy day. Looks like it's Orson Welles month, too - ten of
his films, including "The Immortal Story". Full list here:
http://turnerclassicmovies.com/Schedule/Print/0,,05-2005|0|,00.html

Brandon Bentley
23640


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
It's "Internal Affairs."

But what he's doing with it suggest Jean-Pierre
Melville.

--- hotlove666 wrote:

>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> >
>
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-03-01-new-scorsese-film_x.htm
>
> Is this Infernal Affairs or something else?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
>
>
>
>


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23641


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:44pm
Subject: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Brandon wrote:


>
> Fuller's "Run of the Arrow" will be on Turner Classic Movies on Thursday,
> May 5th.

They've run it letterboxed before. It should be seen in that format.

On the same night - five Luis Bunuel films! "Simon of the
> Desert"!!

The most spit-up-your-liver-hilarious of all Bunuels. The only video copy I
could find recently is murky as hell. Grab this one - especially if you heart
Sylvia Pinal. Her lusty performance her makes you regret a little that Tristana -
originally planned as a follow-up to Viridiana, also to star Pinal - ended up
being made with Deneuve.

Oh happy day. Looks like it's Orson Welles month, too - ten of
> his films

Including Jack Arnold's Man in the Shadow, which makes an interesting
companion piece to Touch of Evil: similar stories, with Arnold's restrained
version of noir contrasted to Welles' baroque. Man in the Shadow shows that
Welles wasn't the only anti-racist director working at Universal in the 50s. The
subject is the exploitation and murder of illegal Latino immigrants.

Racism is the subject of many of Arnold's best films, and a subtle leitmotif in
the sci-fi group, where the hero is dark-haired and intellectual and his
antagonist, Aryan. Their built-in antagonism is set off against the larger
anatgonism that pits all humans against a monster - often misunderstood
himself.
23642


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:46pm
Subject: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> It's "Internal Affairs."

Maybe this will be the Rio Lobo of his gang trilogy. The first two are among his
best films. he's never worked w. Nicholson. I can't wait!
23643


From: BklynMagus
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:52pm
Subject: Re: TCM in May (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
Full list here:
http://turnerclassicmovies.com/Schedule/Print/0,,05-2005|0|,00.html

There will also be 4 Charles Walters movies.

May 1

12:00 PM Walk, Don't Run (1966) Set during the Tokyo Olympics, one of three unlikely housemates plays matchmaker with the other two. Cary Grant, Samantha Eggar, Jim Hutton. D: Charles Walters. C 114m. LBX

May 3

630 AM Good News (1947) A football hero falls in love with his French tutor. June Allyson, Peter Lawford, Joan McCracken. D: Charles Walters. C 93m. CC

8:30 AM The Barkleys Of Broadway (1949) A married musical team splits up so the wife can become a serious actress. Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, Oscar Levant. D: Charles Walters. C 109m. CC

May 23

10:00 PM Billy Rose's Jumbo (1962) The daughter of a circus owner fights to save her father from a takeover spearheaded by the man she loves. Doris Day, Jimmy Durante, Martha Raye. D: Charles Walters. C 124m. LBX CC

I know it may be heretical, but despite the fact that Minnelli and Donen get all the kudos, I have always loved Walters best. Good News, Easter Parade and High Society are three of my all-time favorite musicals.

So sue me.

Brian
23644


From: Travis Miles
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
Well, the original is essentially Melville via Tsui/To, so that makes sense.
INFERNAL AFFAIRS is so operatic in tone and structure that Scorsese seems
like a natural choice. However, Matt Damon for Andy Lau is like trading a
nickel for a dime cause it looks bigger.
T


On 3/2/05 2:33 PM, "David Ehrenstein" wrote:

>
> It's "Internal Affairs."
>
> But what he's doing with it suggest Jean-Pierre
> Melville.
>
> --- hotlove666 wrote:
>
>>
>> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
>> wrote:
>>>
>>
> http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-03-01-new-scorsese-film_x.htm
>>
>> Is this Infernal Affairs or something else?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
>>> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
>>> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
23645


From: Matt Armstrong
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:08pm
Subject: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Travis Miles
wrote:
> Well, the original is essentially Melville via Tsui/To, so that
makes sense.
> INFERNAL AFFAIRS is so operatic in tone and structure that
Scorsese seems
> like a natural choice. However, Matt Damon for Andy Lau is like
trading a
> nickel for a dime cause it looks bigger.

I read somewhere that Scorsese hasn't see the original "Internal
Affairs" and doesn't plan on it. Can anyone confirm this? David?
This wouldn't make it a remake in the sense we're used to.

While I love Andy Lau in the original, Damon gets something of a bad
rap. I think he's a very capable action hero in "The Bourne
Supremacy."
23646


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:14pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
> Racism is the subject of many of Arnold's best films, and a subtle
> leitmotif in the sci-fi group, where the hero is dark-haired and
> intellectual and his antagonist, Aryan.

I haven't seen the film, but wouldn't this strategy fall more into the
category of racism than anti-racism? - Dan
23647


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: TCM in May (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
--- BklynMagus wrote:


>
> I know it may be heretical, but despite the fact
> that Minnelli and Donen get all the kudos, I have
> always loved Walters best. Good News, Easter Parade
> and High Society are three of my all-time favorite
> musicals.
>
> So sue me.
>
You're not about to be sued by the likes of me!
Charles Walters is the pivotal figure in the history
of the Metro musical.

He came to the stuido in a package when it bought Cole
Porter's "DuBarry Was a Lady" in which he appeared and
sang "Well Did You Evah?" with Betty Grable. Years
later he taught Bing Crosy and Frank Sinatra to do it
in "High Society."

At first at metro he was a dance director and
feaured dancer. That's him partnering Judy in the
"Embracable You" number in "Girl Crazy" and the
"Broadway Rhythm" finale of "Presenting Lily Mars" --
under Minnelli's direction. But it was Walters who did
the choreography for "Meet Me in St. Louis" and the
staging of "A Great Lady Has an Interview" in
"Ziegfeld Follies" (the number referred to by Judy
adepts as "The National Anthem.")

There's a marvelous short he did in 46 called
"Spreading' the Jam" about a rent party that Rivette
clearly saw as he reproduced its choreographic style
in "Haut/Bas/Fragile" Rivette has been on record as
preferring Walters to Minnelli -- and in this he's on
firmer ground than simply dissing Minnelli outright.

Walters was over the years much more valuable to MGM
than Minnelli in that he created bigger hits at lower
cost with less trouble. Garland was a handful to
Minnelli, but not so with "Chuck" That's why he got
her last MGM film "Summer Stock." When they were doing
the "Friendly Star" number, which is a seemingly
simple but rather subtle crane/pan from Garland to
Kelly and back again, ending with a big close-up of
Garland he said (after the take that was a "print") --
"Somebody throw me a towel, I've just come!"
Judy loved thatsort of thing.


His comedies are often as inventive as his musicals,
particularly "Ask Any Girl" with Shirley MacLaine (a
favorite of Raymond Durgnat's)

Of his later films "Billy Rose's Jumbo" is really
something special. Day singing "My Romance" and
"Little Girl Blue" are indelible. And her duet with
Martha Raye on "Why Can't I?" is teriffic too.

It's significant that his last film "Walk Don't Run" (
a remake of Stevens'"The More the Merrier") is also
Cary Grant's last film. The last shot of cary grant --
waving to the happy couple, and by extension to all of
us in the audience -- is in the most offhand, casual
way imaginable a complete heartbreaker.


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23648


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
--- Matt Armstrong wrote:


>
> I read somewhere that Scorsese hasn't see the
> original "Internal
> Affairs" and doesn't plan on it. Can anyone confirm
> this? David?
> This wouldn't make it a remake in the sense we're
> used to.
>

I'm sure he's seen it by now, but ht wouldn't really
influence what he plans to do with it, I don't think.

> While I love Andy Lau in the original, Damon gets
> something of a bad
> rap. I think he's a very capable action hero in "The
> Bourne
> Supremacy."
>
>

Damon is a very underrated actor. I find him nothing
short of sublime in both "Ripley" and "Gerry."
>
>


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23649


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Racism is the subject of many of Arnold's best films, and a subtle
> > leitmotif in the sci-fi group, where the hero is dark-haired and
> > intellectual and his antagonist, Aryan.
>
> I haven't seen the film, but wouldn't this strategy fall more into the
> category of racism than anti-racism? - Dan

Arnold was Jewish - got his start in Yiddish theatre in NY - and one of his first
films was a documentary against anti-Semitism. Because of the Aryan
stereotyping that predominated in the hero category in H'wd, particularly at
the level Arnold worked at, it was simply reversing a trend to have the hero be
dark-haired and his antagonist blond in a scifi chiller. I think you can only call
it racism when it's a stereotype imposed by studio casting directors in a large
number of films.

In Man in the Shadow, Jeff Chandler is the heroic sheriff who takes on Welles'
corrupt rancher, so what I'm talking about doesn't apply.
23650


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 8:58pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

"Arnold was Jewish - got his start in Yiddish theatre in NY - and one
of his first films was a documentary against anti-Semitism."

So that's why IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE was such a perfect fit for
Arnold. It's little preachy, but considering the era in which it was
made Arnold and Bradbury were being fairly bold. In fact, I think IT
CAME FROM OUTER SPACE is Arnold's best science fiction film (also the
best b & w 3-D picture.)

Richard
23651


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 9:32pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> "Arnold was Jewish - got his start in Yiddish theatre in NY - and one
> of his first films was a documentary against anti-Semitism."
>
> So that's why IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE was such a perfect fit for
> Arnold. It's little preachy, but considering the era in which it was
> made Arnold and Bradbury were being fairly bold. In fact, I think IT
> CAME FROM OUTER SPACE is Arnold's best science fiction film (also the
> best b & w 3-D picture.)

I was miffed when Independence Day opened and all the reviewers who
mentioned 50s scifi typed it as right-wing paranoia. The Thing is actually one
of the few right-wing scifi films of that era. Even Earth vs. the Flying Saucers
postulates that they initially came in peace. Actually William Alland, the
producer of Arnold's scifiers (and Thompson in Kane), was a Party member
who testified before HUAC and named names in between It Came and
Creature. His and Arnold's last collaboration, The Space Children, is very
poetic.

(I recommend Blake Lucas's beautiful piece on Universal scifi in the just-out
Science Fiction Reader as a corrective to the "rightwing paranoia" myth. That
is more the current mode: Independence Day and perhaps Spielberg's
version of War of the Worlds, which was stripped of its anti-imperialist allegory
by George Pal, in one of the only scifiers of the period that fit the stereotype. If
De Mille had done his version, of course, it would have been about
miscegenation!)

I hope someday you can see With These Hands, the Oscar-nominated
documentary/docudrama about the ILGWU that brought Arnold to H'wd.
There's a gorgeous 35mm print in Betty A's garage, which I will try to get the
Academy to preserve. The use of tailor's implements - needle, thread, thimble
- for survival and combat in The Incredible Shrinking Man (more developed in
the storyboards, where a dressmaker's dummy left in the cellar becomes a
Brobdinagian female image, replaced in the film by the looming image of
Scott's wife) is not fortuitous. Arnold was a liberal, but his parents subscribed
to The Daily Worker, and he plays a Communist agitator (seen from behind)
in With These Hands.

Girls in the Night, his first feature for Universal, is an interesting cross between
exploitation and neorealism, set in NYC. You can rent it at Cinefile.
23652


From: BklynMagus
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Charles Walters (was: TCM in May)
 
David writes:

> You're not about to be sued by the likes of me!

Good I couldn't afford a lawyer.

> Charles Walters is the pivotal figure in the history
of the Metro musical.

No argument here.

>When they were doing the "Friendly Star" number,
which is a seemingly simple but rather subtle
crane/pan from Garland to Kelly and back again,
ending with a big close-up of Garland . . .

Maybe that is what I cherish so much. His style
seems so direct and simple, but when you begin
to break it down you realize how intricate it
really is.

For me, he is also a master at choreography
in confined spaces.

> Of his later films "Billy Rose's Jumbo" is really
something special.

I also love the ending of "Belle of New York"
with Astaire and Vera-Ellen rising in the air.

> The last shot of cary grant is in the most offhand,
casual way imaginable a complete heartbreaker.

I always feel that Walters had a great deal of
generosity toward his characters. At the end of
"Easter Parade", Lawford loses Garland, picks up the
phone, calls Ann Miller and says: "Nadine, get out
the hounds." So wistful, both sad and forward-looking.
To me this is a great contrast with the sourness I often
find in Donen.

Walters also gave me one of my top five camp lines.
In "Torch Song" when a chorus boy trips over Joan
Crawford's leg: "You are paid a lot of money to dance
around that leg."

Brian
23653


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- hotlove666 wrote:


> Actually William Alland, the
> producer of Arnold's scifiers (and Thompson in
> Kane), was a Party member
> who testified before HUAC and named names in between
> It Came and
> Creature. His and Arnold's last collaboration, The
> Space Children, is very
> poetic.
>

Leave us not forget that Alland achieved cinematic
immortality in "Citizen Kane."

Too bad he was also a fink!

> (I recommend Blake Lucas's beautiful piece on
> Universal scifi in the just-out
> Science Fiction Reader as a corrective to the
> "rightwing paranoia" myth. That
> is more the current mode: Independence Day and
> perhaps Spielberg's
> version of War of the Worlds, which was stripped of
> its anti-imperialist allegory
> by George Pal, in one of the only scifiers of the
> period that fit the stereotype. If
> De Mille had done his version, of course, it would
> have been about
> miscegenation!)
>
That's why I'm interested in what tack Spielberg will
take in his version.




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23654


From: jpcoursodon
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 9:57pm
Subject: Walters' "Friendly Star" (was: Re: TCM in May
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
When they were doing
> the "Friendly Star" number, which is a seemingly
> simple but rather subtle crane/pan from Garland to
> Kelly and back again, ending with a big close-up of
> Garland he said (after the take that was a "print") --
> "Somebody throw me a towel, I've just come!"
> Judy loved thatsort of thing.
>


Not even "seemingly" simple! It's an exquisitely complex and
elegant take, actually three shots that are made to look like one.
He starts on Garland turning off the lights inside the house while
she sings the verse. As she finishes her task and the verse she goes
out on the front porch -- start of the second shot. The camera crane
follows her slowly in a high-angle shot. She gets to the 24th bar of
the chorus (the end of the release) and Walters cuts again, very
smoothly, and frames Garland in a still shot until the 32nd bar
("There you are") which is followed by a kind of tag or coda, a
reprise of the last eight bars with new words ("There my love you
will be/Standing close beside me/ In your eyes I will see/My
friendly star"). On "There you are" the camera starts tracking back,
away from Garland, drifts left, leaves Garland completely out of
frame and goes into a semi-circular move that discovers Kelly
sitting in a chair, goes by Kelly and finds Garland again for a
closeup and the end of the song. WOW! No surprise Walters "came" at
the end of the take! It epitomizes his style. JPC
23655


From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
On Wednesday, March 2, 2005, at 03:58 PM, Richard Modiano wrote:
> In fact, I think IT
> CAME FROM OUTER SPACE is Arnold's best science fiction film (also the
> best b & w 3-D picture.)

Have you seen Julian Roffman's 'The Mask' (1961)? The 3D sequences in
Roffman's film are, to me, the finest committed to celluloid -- indeed,
among the most psychologically intense scenes EVER filmed. They take
place whenever the protagonist dons the accursed mask and "goes under"
(as it were) to an occult dream realm whose entire essence describes a
singular, protracted ritual amid local-TV-spook-theater fog machines
and costume department cowls. Every gesture, gaze, or pose struck to
extend "beyond the screen" here resonates like the most shocking
conceivable "next-step" in a highly dramaturgical rite. The set
construction is clearly hand-fashioned and one suspects intensely
personal; the trance scenes are too weird and disturbing for the
picture not to be. (It's pretty clear that those parts are the meat of
the film for Roffman, as everything between them can essentially be
categorized as dramatically flat, nondescript C-horror.) So
hypnotic/psychtronic are the 3D sequences, in fact, that I felt my
vision lost a couple precious points after only one recent screening
(the first since I was 5 years old and scared to death by the film;
available on a superbly transferred bootleg disc from Brutallo.com).

craig.
23656


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:40pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
>
> That's why I'm interested in what tack Spielberg will
> take in his version.

Per the Net: The invaders aren't Martians, and the treatment will be very
realistic, a la Private Ryan.
23657


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:47pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
> --- hotlove666 wrote:
>
>
> > Actually William Alland, the
> > producer of Arnold's scifiers (and Thompson in
> > Kane), was a Party member
> > who testified before HUAC and named names in between
> > It Came and
> > Creature. His and Arnold's last collaboration, The
> > Space Children, is very
> > poetic.
> >
>
> Leave us not forget that Alland achieved cinematic
> immortality in "Citizen Kane."

Of an appropriately shadowy sort.
>
> Too bad he was also a fink!

Somehow I doubt that he said on the way out: "Thanks for the use of the
room!"
23658


From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
>
> Per the Net: The invaders aren't Martians, and the treatment will
be very
> realistic, a la Private Ryan.

In that case are we to assume that the Worlds represent the West
and Islam and the invaders Al-Quaida? That would fit in very much
with Spielberg's Arab bashing in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK and his
produced BACK TO THE FUTURE with Palestinian terrorists firing UZI's
in a schoolyard? I can already see traces of DeMille from
the "divine intervention" climax in Pal's 1950s version with AIDS
representing the appropriate bacteria.

Tony Williams
23659


From: hotlove666
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 10:57pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000" <
peckinpah20012000@y...> wrote:

That would fit in very much
> with Spielberg's Arab bashing in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK

But a good Arab is part of the band of heroes who ride off into the desert at the
end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
23660


From: Travis Miles
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: USA Today on Marty
 
>> While I love Andy Lau in the original, Damon gets
>> something of a bad
>> rap. I think he's a very capable action hero in "The
>> Bourne
>> Supremacy."
>>
>>
>
> Damon is a very underrated actor. I find him nothing
> short of sublime in both "Ripley" and "Gerry."

>
>
Oh, I like Matt Damon just fine. But Andy Lau, I mean were talking about a
Heavenly Sky King here.
T
23661


From:
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:28pm
Subject: Aryans in SF (was: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM)
 
In a message dated 05-03-02 16:05:14 EST, you write:

<< Racism is the subject of many of Arnold's best films, and a subtle
> > leitmotif in the sci-fi group, where the hero is dark-haired and
> > intellectual and his antagonist, Aryan. >>

Alex Raymond's comic strip "Flash Gordon" - the most popular science fiction
work of its era - epitomized the blond "superior" hero in sf. It became a
cliche. Buster Crabbe even had to dye his hair blond to play Flash in the movies.
Raymond's work is certainly racist - its very first panels in January 7, 1934
contrast Flash with inferior people from inferior races (a pretty ugly
opening). We know Flash is superior to these folks: he's a "Yale graduate and
world-renowned polo player".
The black-haired Superman (1938) by Siegel & Shuster is almost certainly a
reaction against this. Most comic book creators HATED the Nazis with all their
heart - so there were lots of dark haired superheros in the comic books.
One suspects Bill is right - having a dark haired hero in 1950's sf film is
still an anti-Nazi political commentary.

Mike Grost

Mike Grost
23662


From:
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 7:32pm
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
In a message dated 05-03-02 16:06:56 EST, Richard Modiano writes:

<< In fact, I think IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE is Arnold's best science
fiction film (also the best b & w 3-D picture.) >>

Still remember how gorgeous this looks in 3-D. The Joshua trees in the Mohave
Desert look especially beautiful. It is a uniquely poetic experience. This is
one of the rare films that used 3-D for mise-en-scene and visual style.

Mike Grost
23663


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 0:39am
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM (was: Samuel Fuller)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-03-02 16:06:56 EST, Richard Modiano writes:
>
> << In fact, I think IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE is Arnold's best science
> fiction film (also the best b & w 3-D picture.) >>
>
> Still remember how gorgeous this looks in 3-D. The Joshua trees in the
Mohave
> Desert look especially beautiful. It is a uniquely poetic experience. This is
> one of the rare films that used 3-D for mise-en-scene and visual style.
>
> Mike Grost

Some credit must go to production designer Robert Boyle, who had already
created a desert on Universal soundstages for Hitchcock in Saboteur. But
Arnold was able to wring poetry from practical locations as well, notably from
Malibu in The Space Children, where his "sea" and "desert" symbols, filmed at
the Magic Hour, met for the first time, at the close of his sci-fi cycle.
23664


From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:01am
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
Bill wrote:

>I was miffed when Independence Day opened and all the reviewers who
>mentioned 50s scifi typed it as right-wing paranoia. The Thing is actually one
>of the few right-wing scifi films of that era. Even Earth vs. the
>Flying Saucers postulates that they initially came in peace.

Let's not forget that EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS was written by
Bernard Gordon under his nom-de-blacklist Raymond T. Marcus.

--

- Joe Kaufman
23665


From: peckinpah20012000
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:18am
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
> That would fit in very much
> > with Spielberg's Arab bashing in RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK
>
> But a good Arab is part of the band of heroes who ride off into
the desert at the
> end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

But does one good Arab make up for the frequent racial
vilifications that often characterize Spielburp's work? The
denigration of Indians in INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM is
another appalling example.

Tony Williams
23666


From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:46am
Subject: "The Big Red One" 2004? Yes or no
 
Hey Guys,

I was wondering if anybody here could engage with me on this one:
A few cinephile friends and I are meeting in the near future to converse
about our top ten lists of 2004. A prior discussion involved the big
question.... should Samuel Fuller's "The Big Red One: the Reconstruction"
be allowed? This subject has been of particular interest to me ever
since I saw it appear on numerous critics' top tens this year
(I hope those in particular could answer me here please). In fact,
I don't think I've ever seen a re-touched film (or one brought
back to something like the director's original intentions) so
considered as being included in the year of its re-release.
This certainly wasn't the case with the 1998 re-touched "Touch of
Evil", the 2001 re-touched "Apocalypse Now Redux", or the 1992
re-find of "L'atalante". And I'm not even mentioning the re-release
of films in recent years in somewhat longer lengths or better color
corrections such as "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly", or "Rear Window".
So, why is the "The Big Red One: The Reconstruction" being considered
part of this year on such a wide spread basis? I'm really wondering
what criteria we use to now consider a film for a certain year.
This is a film that was mutilated to be sure, but it was from 1980,
and even though we're finally seeing it for what is should have been
for the first time, why is it considered more of this year than
most films that appear years later in their more intended forms?
Is this film, no matter how grateful we are to finally see it
in a version closer to its director's intentions, not still
an 80s work?

Mathieu Ricordi
23667


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:52am
Subject: Re: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- peckinpah20012000
wrote:


> >
> > But a good Arab is part of the band of heroes who
> ride off into
> the desert at the
> > end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
>

No. What makes up for it is the fabulous opening
number with Kate Capshaw and a bevvy of tp-dancing
chorus girls doing "Anything Goes."




__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
23668


From: J. Mabe
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 2:10am
Subject: Re: Re: TCM in May : Gabriel Figeroa
 
There also seems to be about a dozen movies on in may
shot by Gabriel Figeroa (which I'm probably
misspelling), four of which are directed by Emilio
Fernandez. After seeing just a taste of Figeroa and
Fernandez's work in New York this summer, I'm hooked.

Josh




__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
23669


From: Richard Modiano
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 3:08am
Subject: Re: The Mask '61 (Was Jack Arnold, Bunuel, Fuller on TCM)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:

"Have you seen Julian Roffman's 'The Mask' (1961)? The 3D sequences
in Roffman's film are, to me, the finest committed to celluloid --
indeed, among the most psychologically intense scenes EVER filmed."

I saw it in my youth in the flat format at the Reseda Theater which
had triple-bill horror pictures on Saturday afternoon. It was more
than viscerally scary, it was genuinely disturbing. I finally saw it
in 3-D about 20 years ago during the 3-D revival. It held up, and I
agree that the 3-D sequences were brilliant and the flat parts were,
well, flat. The Aztec mask in the film was modeled after an actual
Aztec mask I later discovered.

But for a black and white 3-D film in that format form beginning to
end I still give the laurel leaf to Arnold. As Mike Grost noted, he
did make the 3-D part of the mise-en-scene in a way that most other 3-
D movies neber bothered to do. CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON also
used 3-D very expressively, but IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE was more
inspired in every respect.

Richard
23670


From: J. Mabe
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 4:49am
Subject: Oral History.
 
Hello everyone. In the next two months Iíve got to
complete an oral history interview for a graduate
level class out of the University of Kentucky (though
Iím taking the class out of USC). The subject of the
interview is of my choosing and I am trying to find a
filmmaker, cinematographer, or editor willing to do an
interview. Preferably the filmmaker will be of the
personal filmmaking vein (avant-garde, experimental,
whatever) and will be located in the American South,
but at this point Iím open to any suggestions and am
willing to make a bit of a trip. The only names that
have come to me so far from the South are Gordon Ball
and Katherine Stenholm (Bob Jones Universityís
filmmaker for many years - an odd choice I know, but
regardless of what that school stands for, it would
probably be fascinating to talk to a woman filmmaker
from that era (1950s - on) and environment). The
interview will be going to an archive after Iím done
with it, so hopefully this will be of value and wonít
just end with my turning in the assignment. Any
suggestions would be appreciated. You can email me on
or offlist if youíd like (brack_28@y...).

Thanks,
Joshua Mabe




__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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23671


From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 6:03am
Subject: Critic After Dark: A Review of Philippine Cinema
 
It's a compilation of my articles, from 1994 to 2004, and it's
coming out in April, to be printed by the Singapore-based Big O
Magazine.

The book launching will be at the 18th Singapore International Film
Festival. Filmmaker Lav Diaz will be there.

Here's a link to an excerpt (an article on Tikoy
Aguiluz's "Segurista" (Dead Sure, 1996)):

http://journals.aol.com/noelbotevera/MyJournal/entries/686

The book will be available online. I'll post links as soon as they
are available.
23672


From: Saul
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 7:10am
Subject: Mel Gibson's directorial vision made more "accessible"???
 
This press release was just sent to me by Icon in Australia"

"Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" will return to cinemas
nation-wide on approximately 70 screens this Easter on March 24th,
together with a limited release of the new version "The Passion
Recut".

The new film entitled "The Passion Recut" will be approximately 6
minutes shorter than the original to deliver a version which will
appeal to a wider audience. The Passion Recut will carry an MA rating
the same as the original film.


Is this happening in other countries as well???

-- Saul.
23673


From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 7:14am
Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's directorial vision made more "accessible"???
 
Gibson's got to wring every last cent out of his snuff flick, has
he?

I wish he'd come out with an Invincible Loincloth. Y'know, something
that would resist tearing, soiling, and being ripped to shreds
during scourgings.

"Protect your modesty!" I can see it now. "Wear Christ Briefs!"

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
> This press release was just sent to me by Icon in Australia"
>
> "Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" will return to cinemas
> nation-wide on approximately 70 screens this Easter on March 24th,
> together with a limited release of the new version "The Passion
> Recut".
>
> The new film entitled "The Passion Recut" will be approximately 6
> minutes shorter than the original to deliver a version which will
> appeal to a wider audience. The Passion Recut will carry an MA
rating
> the same as the original film.
>
>
> Is this happening in other countries as well???
>
> -- Saul.
23674


From: Matthew Clayfield
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 7:55am
Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's directorial vision made more "accessible"???
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:

> The new film entitled "The Passion Recut" will be approximately 6
> minutes shorter than the original to deliver a version which will
> appeal to a wider audience. The Passion Recut will carry an MA rating
> the same as the original film.

It strikes me as strange that they'd go to the trouble of re-cutting
the film only to walk away with the same rating as before. For some
reason (I can't remember what), I've known they were doing this for
some time. I assumed they'd be cutting it back to an M rating so that
fourteen year olds would be able to get in. Wouldn't it have been
easier to just, you know, re-release the original cut?
23675


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 8:56am
Subject: Re: Jack Arnold
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Kaufman wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> >I was miffed when Independence Day opened and all the reviewers who
> >mentioned 50s scifi typed it as right-wing paranoia. The Thing is
actually one
> >of the few right-wing scifi films of that era. Even Earth vs. the
> >Flying Saucers postulates that they initially came in peace.
>
> Let's not forget that EARTH VS. THE FLYING SAUCERS was written by
> Bernard Gordon under his nom-de-blacklist Raymond T. Marcus.
>
> --
>
> - Joe Kaufman

I believe he talks in his memoir of the Red Scare about how he
smuggled a positive political message into that movie.
23676


From: Saul
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 9:09am
Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's directorial vision made more "accessible"???
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Clayfield"
wrote:

> fourteen year olds would be able to get in. Wouldn't it have been
> easier to just, you know, re-release the original cut?

The original cut is being re-released, side-by-side with the new
version. And as both are sanctioned by Gibson, it would be interesting
to compare the differences in his directorial vision - to see how the
deletion of certain shots, and the new juxtapositions that occur,
change, if at all, the film's meanings. From recently comparing the
Australian and US versions of "The Shining" I found it more
interesting, and more rewarding from what it revealed, to look at it
from the vantage point of, not what had been excised, but at what new
shot/scene juxtapositions these excisions created.

-- Saul.
23677


From: thebradstevens
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:27am
Subject: Re: Mel Gibson's directorial vision made more "accessible"???
 
Maybe Gibson has simply cut out the anti-semitic sections.

From recently comparing the
> Australian and US versions of "The Shining"

As far as I am aware, the long version of THE SHINING (the one that
includes Anne Jackson's scene as a doctor who examines Danny) was
only released in America. The short version (which Kubrick preferred)
was released not only in Australia, but also throughout Europe, and
probably everywhere else.
23678


From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:52am
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
> This misses the real issue which relates to the class
> system. Macready only VISITS the trenches. He does not
> fight. Menjou doesn't even visit. Douglas is in the
> fray with his troops -- though he doesn't have to be,
> which is Menjou's message to him. Douglas questions
> the class system -- and pays the piper.

All of which doesn't make the film an anti-war movie. Ie I don't
think you could use it in an argument about why Iraq is a bad idea.

> And it's much more effective than "How I Won the War"
> which deals with many of the same issues but in a far
> more frivolous way.

I don't think it's a frivolous film, in tone or subject - I sense
real anger there. It uses humour, absurdism, slapstick, including a
lot of VERY silly jokes, but these are distanciation devices which
don't even need to be funny to be effective. Lester said you can't
make an anti-war film because as soon as you bring in the big toys,
sound and colour, and you have likeable characters, you end up
rooting for one side to defeat the other. In PATHS OF GLORY, we have
this impossible mission, and the audience will be thinking "I know
the attack on the anthill is misguided, but I hope they succeed." The
attack on "military justice" is far more effective, but can't really
serve as an attack on war itself.

The best attack on the class system in war, for me, is Losey's KING
AND COUNTRY.

HOW I WON THE WAR prevents the audience from caring too much by
making the mission unbelievable and the characters pasteboard, and
debunking all teh tragic moments, as well as exposing the mechansims
of cinema and everything else it can think of. I like the scattershot
inventiveness of it.

> I prefer "The Bed-Sitting Room."

I like 'em both!
23679


From: cairnsdavid1967
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:57am
Subject: Re: pieceashit FUNNY GAMES
 
> The direct address partakes of the same tone as the drama. My
general
> sense is that reflexivity doesn't so much change a film in itself
as it
> does give the filmmaker a chance to introduce new perspectives or
tones.

I think it can make a big difference, but the films it's used in will
tend to be ones where the movie is tending towards distanciation of
some kind, so exposing the mechanisms of the medium will be an
extension of that.

In FG I think the real alienation comes from the blandness of the
characterisation - the posh family are so underwritten that although
we're offended by what happens to them we don't really identify much.
We're not rooting for them because we like them but because we hate
the killers.

But I've seen Italian horror films which manage this more
effectively, and are doing it primarily to allow the audience to
enjoy the sadism. Curiously, that offends me less than Haneke's
desire to simply give us a hard time.
23680


From: joe_mcelhaney
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:20pm
Subject: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Charles Walters/TCM in May)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>
> At first at metro he was a dance director and
> feaured dancer. That's him partnering Judy in the
> "Embracable You" number in "Girl Crazy" and the
> "Broadway Rhythm" finale of "Presenting Lily Mars" --
> under Minnelli's direction.

The notion that Minnelli directed the finale to "Presenting Lily
Mars" came up here a number of months ago. It was the first time I
had ever heard of this and so I went through every book I have for
confirmation but there was nothing. Even that walking encyclopedia on
Garland, John Fricke, never refers to Minnelli working on the film.
Minnelli mentions the film in passing in his autobiography as being a
favorite of Garland's but that he himself did not like it very much.
But he does not indicate that he worked on it. Fricke has elsewhere
claimed that the first time Garland was ever directed by Minnelli in
any capacity was on "St. Louis."
>
>
> Walters was over the years much more valuable to MGM
> than Minnelli in that he created bigger hits at lower
> cost with less trouble. Garland was a handful to
> Minnelli, but not so with "Chuck" That's why he got
> her last MGM film "Summer Stock." >

Actually, she got to be too much even for Walters. He was supposed to
direct "Royal Wedding" but refused, telling Freed that he just
couldn't face directing her again. After working with her on "Stock"
and the aborted attempt at "Annie," Walters claimed that he
was "ready for a mental institution."
>
>_______
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
23681


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 1:46pm
Subject: Royal Wedding (Was: Walters & Minnelli)
 
> Actually, she got to be too much even for Walters. He was supposed to
> direct "Royal Wedding" but refused, telling Freed that he just
> couldn't face directing her again.

Was Garland supposed to have the Jane Powell role in ROYAL WEDDING? I
think Powell is absolutely delightful in that film. (With FUNNY FACE and
SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, it's my favorite Donen.) - Dan
23682


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 2:12pm
Subject: Re: Royal Wedding (Was: Walters & Minnelli)
 
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:


>
> Was Garland supposed to have the Jane Powell role in
> ROYAL WEDDING?

Yes. it was to be a reunion for Garland and Astarie
asthey had been such a hit together in "easter
Parade."

I
> think Powell is absolutely delightful in that film.
> (With FUNNY FACE and
> SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, it's my favorite Donen.)

I like her in "The Girl Most Likely" and "Small Town
Girl" as well. She was supposed to have been teriffic
in Sondheim's "Bounce." Happily an original cast CD
was made of it.

That Walters may have had second thoughts about
directing her again, he didn't shy away from Judy
otherwise. In fact he partnered her live on stage at
the Palace for her one-woman show in 1951, re-creating
the "Couple of Swells" number from "Easter Parade."






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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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23684


From: Michael E. Kerpan, Jr.
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 4:07pm
Subject: Plugging Chris Fujiwara -- on Korean cinema
 
Since Chris Fujiwara (one of my two favorite Boston film writers) is
too reticent to plug his new article in the Boston Phoenix, on the
extensive Korean film retrospective currently at the Harvard Film
Archive (curated by Gina Kim), I'll plug it for him:

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/movies/documents/04506720.asp

MEK
23685


From: Matt Armstrong
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 6:13pm
Subject: Re: pieceashit FUNNY GAMES
 
> First act of physical violence, very much on-screen, very
> visible and very shocking: one of the hoods shatters the husband's
> knee by hitting it hard with a golf club. Nice! The man will
suffer
> horribly from the wound throughout the film. No physical violence?
> JPC

At the risk of reanimating the "no physical violence" thread, I'd
like to correct this point. I just re-watched "FG" and the scene you
describe is most definitely *not shown.* It is implied, but we never
see the swing of a golf club, nor the impact to the knee. We know
that this is what has happened, but Haneke does not show it.

The fact that you remember seeing this when it is never shown only
confirms to me Haneke's command of the craft.

"FG" portrays violence, but Haneke has taken tremendous care to
drain the kineticism from the violence.
23686


From: jess_l_amortell
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 6:49pm
Subject: VV on Westerns
 
Not sure why, but I was surprised by a few comments in the Village Voice's catch-all coverage of Film Forum's western series: http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0509,westerns,61593,20.html
First, there's a reference to "the overlong, overpraised Rio Bravo" (that's by Mark Holcomb, who's surely entitled to his opinion). But what about Michael Atkinson, who calls The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "a pernicious flimflam [. . .] virtually an apologia for Ford's career of reactionary simplemindedness and eager militarism"! Without getting into arguing the issue here, Atkinson's blunt denunciation seems surprisingly uninformed by decades of auteurist passion and insight, shall we say?
23687


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 6:58pm
Subject: The Wrong Man (Was: pieceashit FUNNY GAMES)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "cairnsdavid1967"
wrote:

In FG I think the real alienation comes from the blandness of the
> characterisation - the posh family are so underwritten that
although
> we're offended by what happens to them we don't really identify
much.
> We're not rooting for them because we like them but because we hate
> the killers.
>
> But I've seen Italian horror films which manage this more
> effectively, and are doing it primarily to allow the audience to
> enjoy the sadism. Curiously, that offends me less than Haneke's
> desire to simply give us a hard time.

Still haven't seen FG, but I consider The Wron gMan an exemplary film
when it comes to giving the audience a hard time. Does it bother you
that AH did that?
23688


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 7:09pm
Subject: Re: VV on Westerns
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
>
> Not sure why, but I was surprised by a few comments in the Village
Voice's catch-all coverage of Film Forum's western series:
http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0509,westerns,61593,20.html
> First, there's a reference to "the overlong, overpraised Rio Bravo"
(that's by Mark Holcomb, who's surely entitled to his opinion). But
what about Michael Atkinson, who calls The Man Who Shot Liberty
Valance "a pernicious flimflam [. . .] virtually an apologia for
Ford's career of reactionary simplemindedness and eager militarism"!
Without getting into arguing the issue here, Atkinson's blunt
denunciation seems surprisingly uninformed by decades of auteurist
passion and insight, shall we say?

You know those westerns where an aging gunfighter confronts a psycho
kid out to make a name for himself? That's what this is.

Speaking of which, how much do we love My Name Is Nobody? "Nobody was
quicker on the draw."
23689


From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 7:34pm
Subject: Re: The Wrong Man (Was: pieceashit FUNNY GAMES)
 
> Still haven't seen FG, but I consider The Wron gMan an exemplary film
> when it comes to giving the audience a hard time. Does it bother you
> that AH did that?

I'm interested to hear David's opinion, but I addresed this issue a
little bit in post #23397. - Dan
23690


From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 8:04pm
Subject: Re: The Wrong Man (Was: pieceashit FUNNY GAMES)
 
I'm not sure what's meant by "a hard time." I was
raised in the very area in Queens where the actual
events took place. The lawyer who defended Ballestrero
became a successful local politician. I rode the same
subway train that Ballestrero did for the first 20
eyars of my life. Yet Hitchcock's film never
registered for me as "personally" as say "The World of
Henry Orient" -- which is practically a documentary on
the girls I went to school with.

There's a kind of iconographic ambiguity to "The Wrong
Man" in that Henry Fonda, so often cast as the "common
man" still maintaoins his status as Henry Fonda, Movie
Star. Sturges gives him a much "harder time" in "The
Lady Eve." And his "common man" cred is most
successfully\utilized in "The Big Street."

--- Dan Sallitt wrote:

> > Still haven't seen FG, but I consider The Wron
> gMan an exemplary film
> > when it comes to giving the audience a hard time.
> Does it bother you
> > that AH did that?
>
> I'm interested to hear David's opinion, but I
> addresed this issue a
> little bit in post #23397. - Dan
>





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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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23691


From: BklynMagus
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 8:58pm
Subject: Re: VV on Westerns
 
jess writes:

> First, there's a reference to "the overlong, overpraised Rio Bravo"

I didn't get that one either. I fell in love with "Rio Bravo" the first
time I saw it. To me it is beautifully paced, written and acted. Two
favorite parts: a) when Angie throws the flowerpot and Hawks stays
with the scene to show her gradual realization of what she has done;
b) the two songs -- not one -- but two. To me Hawks was just seeing
how langorous he could make the narrative without it losing all
tension. Just amazing.

My question is where is its evil twin "El Dorado" and "Red River."
Are they UN-essential?

But it was good to see 2 John Sturges movies (if only 2).

> But what about Michael Atkinson, who calls The Man Who Shot
LibertyValance "a pernicious flimflam [. . .] virtually an apologia
for Ford's career of reactionary simplemindedness and eager
militarism"!

To me Ford has always been both anti-racist and racist. There
are moments/films that are smart and subtle critques (The
Searchers) and then those that make my skin crawl (my
reaction -- YMMV): the ending of "The Prisoner of Shark Island"
and Stepin Fetchit.

> Atkinson's blunt denunciation seems surprisingly uninformed
by decades of auteurist passion and insight, shall we say?

Ford seems to be one of those filmmakers who put his talent at
the service of both ideology and ecriture. Unfortunately for
Ford, the ideology he espoused was particularly nasty and that
tends to obscure out his more subtle critiques.

Personally I like "The Searchers" best. Under all that formal
rigour are all these passions, biases, ideologies contesting
with each other as if at the height of his aesthtic power, Ford
was also dealing most openly/deeply with America's issues.

Brian
23692


From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:09pm
Subject: Re: Antiwar (Was: Paths of Glory)
 
Forgot to reply to this:

--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
> wrote:
> >
> > I can't forget the ending of the novel--which I
> > thought was far stronger than what Kubrick actually shot. Ever
read
> > that?
>
> Well, I forgot it. But the original ending of the movie - in the
> script - was Joker dying: cut to his funeral.

SPOILERS

The original ending had Cowboy pinned down by the sniper. Joker's
solution was to shoot Cowboy so they could all go home.

That's the kind of irony and nihilism I thought would be more up
Kubrick's alley. Why he pulled back with the ending he did film I
don't understand.
23693


From: Matt Teichman
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:25pm
Subject: Re: My Name is Nobody
 
hotlove666 wrote:

>Speaking of which, how much do we love My Name Is Nobody? "Nobody was
>quicker on the draw."
>
>
What a fantastic film! Possibly the finest closing credits freeze frame
I've ever seen. Maybe even the finest Italian film I've seen.

What does everyone think of Tonino Valerii? I have yet to see any of
his other work.

-Matt
23694


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:25pm
Subject: Prisoner of Shark Island (Was: VV on Westerns)
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> jess writes:
>
>
>

>
> To me Ford has always been both anti-racist and racist. There
> are moments/films that are smart and subtle critques (The
> Searchers) and then those that make my skin crawl (my
> reaction -- YMMV): the ending of "The Prisoner of Shark Island"
> and Stepin Fetchit.

Rosabell's extraordinary fecundity is contrasted cruelly with Mudd's castration
as he hobbles home aged by prison - a castration that begins with his attempt
to conceal the facts of life from his little girl, who then delivers Booth's boot to
the detectives because she has made it a sled for her dolly. (The return of the
repressed.)

Mudd replaces the Ford Mother who is not yet present in this film to incarnate
the Law: as a result of his repressive attitudes, he is "castrated" by being
separated from his family and thrown in a prison on an island surrounded by
sharks. And while there he gradually assumes the maternal role by tending
the plague victims.

When he returns at the end, Ford's mise-en-scene shows his age even
though the script has elided the passage of time. The announcement that
Rosabell has done it again is just another example of the cruel Fordian irony
which is brought to bear on one of the most aberrant Ford heroes of the 30s,
whose lot generally was not a happy one.

I wish that Prisoner of Shark Island had been aired daily after 9/11 as a
comment on the unconstitutional imprisonments and tortures that Cheney,
Rumsfeld and Gonzalez were setting in m otion. Although ironically Mudd
turns out to have probably been part of the conspiracy to kill Lincoln - along
with Lincoln's Secretary of War.

Tag Gallagher says that The Searchers were made during the yearlong
Supreme Court deliberations on school integration.
23695


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:28pm
Subject: Re: My Name is Nobody
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman wrote:
> hotlove666 wrote:

> What does everyone think of Tonino Valerii? I have yet to see any of
> his other work.

For starters, I don't think he directed My Name Is Nobody. It's quite clear to me
that Leone did. It's my favorite Leone film, actually.
23696


From: Noel Vera
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:44pm
Subject: Re: My Name is Nobody
 
Not my favorite Leone (Once Upon a Time in the West--predictable
choice, so sue me) and not my favorite Italian film by a long shot,
but definitely enjoyable and one of the better spaghetti westerns.


--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
> > hotlove666 wrote:
>
> > What does everyone think of Tonino Valerii? I have yet to see
any of
> > his other work.
>
> For starters, I don't think he directed My Name Is Nobody. It's
quite clear to me
> that Leone did. It's my favorite Leone film, actually.
23697


From: Matt Teichman
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: Re: My Name is Nobody
 
hotlove666 wrote:

>>What does everyone think of Tonino Valerii? I have yet to see any of
>>his other work.
>>
>>
>
>For starters, I don't think he directed My Name Is Nobody. It's quite clear to me
>that Leone did. It's my favorite Leone film, actually.
>
>

That would explain the Leone signatures with which the film is riddled.

If Leone it be, it's definitely his masterpiece.

-Matt
23698


From: K. A. Westphal
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 11:07pm
Subject: Re: VV on Westerns
 
-- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell" wrote:
But what about Michael Atkinson, who calls The Man Who Shot Liberty
Valance "a pernicious flimflam [. . .] virtually an apologia for
Ford's career of reactionary simplemindedness and eager militarism"!
Without getting into arguing the issue here, Atkinson's blunt
denunciation seems surprisingly uninformed by decades of auteurist
passion and insight, shall we say?

---

The part you left out--"pernicious flimflam that maintains that
history is rightly a matter of convenience and control"--is equally
strange.

I assume that because "print the legend!" is not just a line of
dialogue but also a Ford credo, Atkinson feels comfortable in using
"rightly," but I really don't think THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE
endorses that view. What's more, I read VALANCE one as an elegiac more
than an ideological statement.

--Kyle
23699


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 11:08pm
Subject: Re: My Name is Nobody
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman wrote:
> hotlove666 wrote:

>
> If Leone it be, it's definitely his masterpiece.
>
> -Matt

Noel is right that Once Upon a Time is tough to top for sheer esthetic chills
and thrills - hard to separate from Morricone's masterpiece of a score - but
MNIN gives me more pleasure. I love those crazy Wild Bunch shots w. Ride of
the Valkyries played over them on a kazoo, or the shootout shown thru the still
camera, recalling Marx's line about bourgeois history showing things upside
down. Or Peckinpah's grave, or Fonda's epitaph, "Nobody was quicker on the
draw," with its wry ambiguity.

The intrusion of Bud Spencer's youthful insouciance and sense of comedy
into the myth that was set in bronze at the end of Once Upon a Time is very
contemporary. Leone made it without signing it while waiting to do Once
Upon a Time in America, another towering masterpiece. Made to kill time, My
Name Is Nobody is a blissfully minor film like Duck You Sucker (Once Upon a
Time in the Revolution in French), and even more fun than that one.

But they are all great, from the first Fistful to the fadeout on De Niro's smile.
What a giant of a filmmaker. Only Demy can compare with him.
23700


From: hotlove666
Date: Thu Mar 3, 2005 11:11pm
Subject: Re: VV on Westerns
 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "K. A. Westphal" wrote:

Fort Apache doesn't print the legend - it prints the truth. Then someone SAYS
"Print the legend." There's a difference! The Man... prints the truth too. The
Man... is Ford's Chimes at Midnight.

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