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24901
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:14pm
Subject: Re: Recent Warhol film experience cellar47
--- LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
>
> David, I feel more than a little trepidation in
> telling you what I thought of
> HORSE. Undoubtedly, some people on this list will
> think I have no right to
> pronounce on the film after such a counterfeit
> screening. But what the hell.
>
Go right ahead.
> I know frustration is part of the Warhol film
> experience. But I wish the
> sound was better recorded. Or rather, I wish I could
> hear the poorly recorded
> sound as well as others obviously can. People were
> laughing at lines that gathered
> too much crud by the time they reached my ears
> (these are the wages of rock
> 'n' roll, no doubt). And the second reel was
> definitely taxing to sit through.
>
A common problem with 1965 Warhols. Sound and image
quality varies. He simply put the reel into the camera
(which was designed for shooting newsreels, and turned
it on.
> But I really dug how the film augmented the
> homoeroticism of the western
> (very THE BIG SKY, this one) not so much by
> displaying more explicit gestures but
> through an obsessive gaze at them. It's like an
> irrational enlargement of the
> scene when Kirk Douglas and Dewey Martin meet for
> the first time.
Bingo!
And I had no
> idea Tosh Carillo was a Master Sadist.
He was the love of Gregory Battcock's life.
Further
> confuses the notion of
> authorship in these films.
>
Well sure.
> HORSE and a few other Warhol titles were shown in
> conjunction with a visit by
> the great Douglas Crimp. He gave a lecture on the
> Warhol-Tavel collaboration
> as a non-collaboration. I wish he drew out the
> implications of his ultimate
> point which was about the sheer queerness of their
> modus operandi. The
> every-queer-for-him/herself vibe seems to feed into
> American individualism and
> capitalism, thereby comprising the queerness of the
> enterprise. But still, an
> intriguing talk.
>
Crimp knows whereof he speaks. It was something on hte
order of laissez-faire mise en scene. Andy neede
things to film and Ronnie wante to get his plays
staged. One hand washed the other. Ronnie's main
competitotr for Andy's cinematic attnetion was Edie's
gurur Chuck Wein. Then Paul came in and took over. The
shooitng effectively ended Andy's directorial career.
He became a "producer" after that.
> Sorry if this post sounds so defensive. But I'm
> defending my film
> scholarship, after all.
>
No need to apologize.
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24902
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:33pm
Subject: Re: Calling All Rockers blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>
> It's a little late in the day, and I know that Richard Brooks
didn't
> make anyone's list but this item from the poet Luis Campos may be
of
> interset to people in the Los Angeles area:
>
> "Calling all rockers!
>
> Tomorrow [that is, today] Sunday at 5 p.m. at the Egyptian theater,
> there'll be a 50th anniversary celebration of the classic
> film "Blackboard Jungle," which starred Glenn Ford, Anne
> Francis, Vic Morrow, Sidney Poitier, Richard Kiley, Paul
> Mazursky, Jamie Farr... and my brother Rafael. Poitier,
> Mazursky & Farr are going to be there & will discuss the
> film after the showing; the moderator will be Glenn Ford's
> son Peter. Also there will the remaining members of Bill
> Haley & the Comets, who played the film's theme, "Rock
> Around the Clock." Many other actors you're familiar with
> will be there & I'm sure Rafael's spirit will be dancing in
> the aisles, as only he could do it. I hope to see you then!
>
> Luis"
The problem with Richard Brooks never making anyone's list, which is
understandable I guess, is that his half-dozen really outstanding
movies don't get the attention or close analysis they richly deserve.
The Last Hunt, In Cold Blood, Elmer Gantry, Take the High Ground,
Blackboard Jungle and The Happy Ending are beautifully realized,
dramatically compelling and often intensely visually exciting films
which reveal someone with the passion of a real artist and not just
the "school teacher" he has been kind of typed as--as much as he may
seem to be unable to fully get there more of the time than not.
Don't forget that his favorite cinematographer in the first part of
his career was John Alton (I assume it was the also very talented
Conrad Hall later, long after Alton had retired). A preference for
Alton says something all by itself, and the reason he chose him is
evident in the films.
As I recall, his reputation in French film criticism was initially
very good in fact. Does anyone know what happened?
This is just a quick note but obviously, based on above, I'd
encourage L.A. non-initiates to get to that special Blackboard
Jungle screening about 2 1/2 hours from now if you are able to.
24903
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:44pm
Subject: Re: Recent Warhol film experience jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Y'all -
>
> Got to see Warhol's HORSE for the first time a few days ago. The
film started
> with the bottom eighth of the frame at the top. (Don't know the
technical
> term for that or the way to fix it.) I asked the projectionist if
she could fix
> it. "Oh, that's just the way it is," I was informed. "
I have NEVER encountered a projectionist who would admit to
anything being wrong with his/her projection. It's always: "That's the
way it's supposed to be," "That's the way the movie was shot" etc...
So your experience, sadly, has nothing surprising about it. And then
Warhol aesthetics tend to encourage a response of "That's just the way
it is." JPC
24904
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:15am
Subject: Re: off limits (was: directors) jaloysius56
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> Poetry as criticism should be off limits.
I don't claim here any poetry, but I humbly admit I have a weakness
for gushing. It seems to me that critics often set themselves
unnecessary limits, maybe for the sake of clarity. When their words,
written in the first person, could burn of their own desire, of their
own anger.
« Le droit à délirer a été conquis par la littérature depuis
Lautréamont au moins et la critique pourrait fort bien entrer en
délire selon des motifs poétiques, pour peu qu'elle le déclarât. (…)
La sanction du critique ce n'est pas le sens de l'œuvre, c'est le sens
de ce qu'il en dit » (Barthes)
Jean-Pierre caught me, rightfully, in lacking of meaning.
24905
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:30am
Subject: Re: Calling All Rockers jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
>
> The problem with Richard Brooks never making anyone's list, which
is
> understandable I guess, is that his half-dozen really outstanding
> movies don't get the attention or close analysis they richly
deserve.
> The Last Hunt, In Cold Blood, Elmer Gantry, Take the High Ground,
> Blackboard Jungle and The Happy Ending are beautifully realized,
>
I would add to the list DEADLINE USA (rather than TAKE THE HIGH
GROUND which I find very dated today and quite minor)and of course
one of his 3 or 4 best movies, THE PROFESSIONALS. I wouldn't call
BLACKBOARD JUNGLE outstanding although I don't dislike it as much as
I used to... What happened to Brooks was that he made a string of
pretty bad movies -- KARAMAZOV, the Williams adaptations, DOLLARS,
BITE THE BULLET, GOODBAR... which confused and perplexed even his
most ardent fans.
In France he was one of the favorite directors of the early
POSITIF, and strangely enough CAHIERS liked him too (see the Godard
note in the January 1964 special issue on American cinema).
JPC
24906
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:34am
Subject: American Cinema updates sallitt1
I finally finished my post-1968 update of Sarris' director rankings. It
got pretty massive, so instead of posting it here, I uploaded it (as an
Excel file) to the group's Files section.
I now have a much greater sympathy for Sarris's self-created predicament.
I wound up putting directors I liked into lowly categories, abusing the
wild-card groupings like "Miscellany" and "Make Way for the Clowns," and
basically breaking every single rule for what those sections are supposed
to mean. The end result isn't accurate enough to be proud of, but I
sweated over it anyway. - Dan
24907
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:43am
Subject: Re: Bergman and Bresson [Was: 25 directors] jaloysius56
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Peter Henne wrote:
> What I feel you're missing here is Cassavetes' artistic honesty, his
insistence on acknowledging that Rowlands IS an actress. He doesn't
sustain confusion, rather he brings clarity to the presentation of an
illusion.
Precisely, I reproach him for not choosing between illusion and its
negation (both approaches being tenable). Moreover, I feel that he
chose illusion but with an inappropriate, not to say contradictory,
film system. I don't accuse him of being dishonest (I respect his
work); I simply feel there is something wrong with the whole thing.
24908
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 0:51am
Subject: Re: Re: Calling All Rockers cellar47
--- Blake Lucas
wrote:
> The Last Hunt, In Cold Blood, Elmer Gantry, Take the
> High Ground,
> Blackboard Jungle and The Happy Ending are
> beautifully realized,
> dramatically compelling and often intensely visually
> exciting films
Hey -- you forgot "The Professionals" !
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24909
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:09am
Subject: Re: off limits (was: directors) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> > Poetry as criticism should be off limits.
>
> I don't claim here any poetry, but I humbly admit I have a
weakness
> for gushing. It seems to me that critics often set themselves
> unnecessary limits, maybe for the sake of clarity. When their
words,
> written in the first person, could burn of their own desire, of
their
> own anger.
>
> « Le droit à délirer a été conquis par la littérature depuis
> Lautréamont au moins et la critique pourrait fort bien entrer en
> délire selon des motifs poétiques, pour peu qu'elle le déclarât.
(…)
> La sanction du critique ce n'est pas le sens de l'œuvre, c'est le
sens
> de ce qu'il en dit » (Barthes)
>
> Jean-Pierre caught me, rightfully, in lacking of meaning.
Oh No Max, really, I'm all for gushing. Ultimately, if there is no
impulse to gush, their is no point in writing at all. But the world
pressures you into channelling the gushing into something blander
and thus more acceptable. Too bad. Of course we can always refuse
to conform, and I admire those who do, like you. I might do the same
werre I a bit younger. JPC
24910
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:15am
Subject: Re: American Cinema updates jaloysius56
Never heard of Alan Clarke...
Pleased to see George Armitage where you put it. I enjoyed Grosse
Pointe Blank and Miami Blues, but in video only. His films don't reach
the theaters here (or Miami maybe). What about the Big Bounce?
and where is Gregg Araki? This one intrigues me... I've just seen
today that his last one (don't remember the title) is released here.
24911
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:30am
Subject: Clarke, Armitage (Was: American Cinema updates) sallitt1
> Never heard of Alan Clarke...
He's a British director, mostly for TV, who died in 1990. I don't know
what's available in France, but some of his best films are or were on DVD
(THE FIRM, ELEPHANT) or VHS (RITA SUE AND BOB TOO).
> Pleased to see George Armitage where you put it. I enjoyed Grosse
> Pointe Blank and Miami Blues, but in video only. His films don't reach
> the theaters here (or Miami maybe). What about the Big Bounce?
It's rather good, but it's loosely constructed and maybe not as satisfying
as some of his other work. I greatly admire MIAMI BLUES, VIGILANTE FORCE,
HIT MAN, AND HOT ROD (aka REBEL OF THE ROAD). He's an exceptional writer,
and my favorites among his films are the ones that he also wrote.
> and where is Gregg Araki? This one intrigues me... I've just seen
> today that his last one (don't remember the title) is released here.
I've seen only THE LONG WEEKEND (O' DESPAIR) and SPLENDOR, and haven't yet
appreciated him. Do you recommend any particular titles? - Dan
24912
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:36am
Subject: ATSAS in LA sallitt1
Sorry for another self-promotion, but my movie ALL THE SHIPS AT SEA is
going to be playing at the Method Fest in Woodland Hills (an LA suburb).
Saturday, April 2, 5 pm
The MPTF Louis B. Mayer Theater
23388 Mulholland Drive
Woodland Hills, CA
The film is 64 minutes long, and will playing with a 27 minute film
called THE SHABBOS GOY. Admission is $8. - Dan
24913
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:56am
Subject: Doublas (Was: Douglas, Walters) sallitt1
> No, it wasn't FORT DOBBS, which is OK (though YELLOWSTONE KELLY is
> better). It was RIO CONCHOS--I believe JPC cited this one here
> recently. That's his best Western--it's absolutely brilliant. My
> favorite three are definitely YOUNG AT HEART, SYLVIA, RIO CONCHOS,
> in that order. A little consensus there, though he has a lot of
> films to consider and I doubt any of us has seen them all.
I've seen RIO CONCHOS, wasn't quite as wild about it as you and
Jean-Pierre, though it does looks very nice.
Do you two like KISS TOMORROW GOODBYE? I recall being startled at how
good it was. - Dan
24914
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:57am
Subject: Re: Re: American Cinema updates cellar47
--- Maxime Renaudin wrote:
> and where is Gregg Araki? This one intrigues me...
> I've just seen
> today that his last one (don't remember the title)
> is released here.
>
"Mysterious Skin." It's his best film and one of the
best of the new year so far. Not to be missed under
any circumstances.
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24915
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:02am
Subject: Re: Doublas (Was: Douglas, Walters) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > No, it wasn't FORT DOBBS, which is OK (though YELLOWSTONE KELLY is
> > better). It was RIO CONCHOS--I believe JPC cited this one here
> > recently. That's his best Western--it's absolutely brilliant. My
> > favorite three are definitely YOUNG AT HEART, SYLVIA, RIO CONCHOS,
> > in that order. A little consensus there, though he has a lot of
> > films to consider and I doubt any of us has seen them all.
>
> I've seen RIO CONCHOS, wasn't quite as wild about it as you and
> Jean-Pierre, though it does looks very nice.
>
> Do you two like KISS TOMORROW GOODBYE? I recall being startled at
how
> good it was. - Dan
I saw KISS in a crummy flypit in Paris maybe 50 years ago and loved
it. Tavernier was not quite as enthusiastic about it in our Douglas
entry. What can I say? I'd love to see it again. JPC
24916
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:04am
Subject: Re: 25 Directors sallitt1
> Here's the first 25 that spring to mind:
> Evgenii Bauer
Have you seen much of his work? I've seen only a few, but CHILD OF THE
BIG CITY made me think he might be important.
> Alf Sjoberg
> Robert Hamer
> Albert Lewin
> Sohrab Shahid Saless
Nice to see these little-noted directors mentioned. What have you seen by
Saless? I've seen only UTOPIA and STILL LIFE, both remarkable. - Dan
24917
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:07am
Subject: The spit trick (Was: Recent Warhol film experience) sallitt1
> So I finally said what's to lose, went up and and showed her the spit
> trick.
I've done a little projecting in my day, but...what's the spit trick? -
Dan
24918
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:20am
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade sallitt1
> I just rewatched "Easter Parade" and Dan has it exactly
> right.
I watched last night too. Maybe not Walters' best, but with lots of nice
stuff. Garland is really pretty wonderful in it.
The early rehearsal scenes are very funny, with all that noisy side chat:
Astaire talking to the piano player about nothing, Garland motormouthing
her way through her embarrassment. The humor is almost conceptual: much
of the fun comes from the blatantness of what would normally be thrown
away.
In general, there's something humorously repetitive about the boy-girl
schema: in each coupling, one person looks longingly, the other tries to
be as uninterested as possible. The behavior is so obvious, and pretty
much the same from one actor to the other; it's like a mask that one
character drops and the other picks up. It's as if Walters is underlining
the mechanism of the script instead of trying to make it natural. - Dan
24919
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:38am
Subject: Re: Re: Calling All Rockers sallitt1
> In France he was one of the favorite directors of the early
> POSITIF, and strangely enough CAHIERS liked him too (see the Godard
> note in the January 1964 special issue on American cinema).
The MOVIE writers in England seemed to be quite high on him too. - Dan
24920
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:44am
Subject: Re: Calling All Rockers hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> The Last Hunt, In Cold Blood, Elmer Gantry, Take the High Ground,
> Blackboard Jungle and The Happy Ending are beautifully realized,
> dramatically compelling and often intensely visually exciting films
God help me, I've only seen In Cold Blood, and that very recently,
because I had to write on it. The script was not good. All those pie-
in-the-face associative cuts were not a good idea, even if they
mimicked the book. Neither was the primal scene stuff or the
preaching at the end. But thanks to Hall and the encouragement Brooks
gave him, the film is a visual wonder rcalling the work of some of
our great still photographers (Manny Farber wrote well about this
aspect), and the two leads are as good as one could ask for - one
reason I wasn't panting to see "Perry" swing again. (Silly, isn't
it?) It's strange that Brooks, as a writer, was his own worst enemy
on this one.
Otto Preminger wanted so badly to film the book that he got into a
brawl with Capote's agent in some New York restaurant after the nod
went to Brooks. He had already shown - brilliantly - that he knew his
way around natural lighting and other new photographic techniques in
Bunny Lake, made two years before. One can only imagine what he'd
have made of it.
24921
From: "Noel Bjorndahl & Carole Dent"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:42am
Subject: Re: 25 Directors noelbjorndahl
Bauer's "trilogy of death" (Twilight of a Woman's Soul, After Death, The Dying Swan), available on a region 2 bfi release is astonishing. His work is staged in depth anticipating Welles and Wyler by some decades. In After Death, there is a three minute take of great subtlety employing tracking and dollying to highly expressive effect. His lighting generally is extraordinarily sophisticated anticipating the mature Mizoguchi by creating darker foregrounds with the action focussed at well-lit middle to long distance (most notably in some of the interiors of Twilight of a Woman's Soul). His decor can be as crowded as Von Sternberg's; the films include moments of powerful erotic energy, dream, and struggles between life and death-all in the period 1912-1916!
The Saless films that made the greatest impact on me (mostly during the 70s) were Still Life, Far from Home and Diary of a Lover. I only recently discovered that Saless had died in 1998-he is so little discussed and written about I suspect because his work is hard to find with even the boutique DVD outfits seemingly uninterested. I can remember when his work evoked Bresson comparisons (here in Sydney at least).
Noel ----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Sallitt
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [a_film_by] 25 Directors
> Here's the first 25 that spring to mind:
> Evgenii Bauer
Have you seen much of his work? I've seen only a few, but CHILD OF THE
BIG CITY made me think he might be important.
> Alf Sjoberg
> Robert Hamer
> Albert Lewin
> Sohrab Shahid Saless
Nice to see these little-noted directors mentioned. What have you seen by
Saless? I've seen only UTOPIA and STILL LIFE, both remarkable. - Dan
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24922
From: "Noel Bjorndahl & Carole Dent"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:07am
Subject: Re: Doublas (Was: Douglas, Walters) noelbjorndahl
I've seen quite a bit: Zenobia, Saps at Sea, the Gildersleeves, The Falcon in Hollywood, most of the post-1946 stuff including some minor but very entertaining Randolph Scott westerns.
Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye is as startling as you imply-it's got to be up there with the best of the postwar gangster movies with direction as taut as strung wire-the only better Cagney performance around this period was his Cody Jarrett for Walsh.
Come Fill the Cup, in spite of its script shortcomings is another tough and stylish Cagney vehicle (he's in his element as the alcoholic journalist); The Charge at Feather River has a plot straight out of Fenimore Cooper with relentless non-stop action (like Only the Valiant); Them is terrific use of the 50s sci-fi formula, handled with unusual gracefulness and subtlety;Young at Heart treats its melodrama without condescension, makes the most of some odd chemistry between Sinatra and Day, and pulls off several impressive set-pieces that challenge its cosy 50s domestic milieu; Rio Conchos, Yellowstone Kelly and Fort Dobbs (in descending order of quality) are all to varying degrees, memorable westerns. This is not a bad track record for someone whom Sarris defined as a director "without too noticeable a personal style". Someone in Australia once posed the question "Who is Gordon Douglas?" (It may have been John Flaus).
I think GD has been more than a little under-valued.
Noel ----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Sallitt
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 11:56 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Doublas (Was: Douglas, Walters)
> No, it wasn't FORT DOBBS, which is OK (though YELLOWSTONE KELLY is
> better). It was RIO CONCHOS--I believe JPC cited this one here
> recently. That's his best Western--it's absolutely brilliant. My
> favorite three are definitely YOUNG AT HEART, SYLVIA, RIO CONCHOS,
> in that order. A little consensus there, though he has a lot of
> films to consider and I doubt any of us has seen them all.
I've seen RIO CONCHOS, wasn't quite as wild about it as you and
Jean-Pierre, though it does looks very nice.
Do you two like KISS TOMORROW GOODBYE? I recall being startled at how
good it was. - Dan
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24923
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:36pm
Subject: Re: Calling All Rockers jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
>
> God help me, I've only seen In Cold Blood, and that very recently,
> because I had to write on it.
Do you mean you deliberately avoided seeing any Brooks film
until "very recently"? And you watched IN COLD BLOOD only because you
had to? It would be interesting to know the reasons for that more than
benign neglect. It's really astonishing, especially from a person like
you who seems to have seen almost everything. It's not that Brooks
movies are difficult to find either, at least not the major ones. I'm
really perplexed. JPC
24924
From: samadams@...
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:06pm
Subject: Re: American Cinema updates arglebargle31
Me, too! The combined critique of Miami Blues and Grosse Pointe
Blanke would be devastating if it weren't so damned funny. Big Bounce
is pretty much a wash, although it does has some nice moments, and
one of the best poker scenes since some came running. Exactly what
Willie Nelson and Harry Dean Stanton are doing playing cards with
Morgan Freeman is never explained, but Armitage clearly knows the
value of letting a bunch of old salts shoot the shit. I believe
Armitage was taken ill on the set, and the movie has perhaps the most
abrupt ending of any conventional narrative I can think of -- the
characters are backed into a corner, the screen does one of those
Love Boat-esque side-to-side flips, and then there's about 30 seconds
of narration explaining the rest of the plot and how everyone got off
scot-free. Considering the seven-year wait, it has to be seen as a
bit of a disappointment, but I found things to like anyway.
Someday I mean to look up Armitage's 1970s Corman features, although
only Night Duty Nurses (tempting title, that) is available on video,
and I don't guess a retrospective is in the cards.
Sam
>
> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:15:50 -0000
> From: "Maxime Renaudin"
>Subject: Re: American Cinema updates
>
>
>Never heard of Alan Clarke...
>
>Pleased to see George Armitage where you put it. I enjoyed Grosse
>Pointe Blank and Miami Blues, but in video only. His films don't reach
>the theaters here (or Miami maybe). What about the Big Bounce?
24925
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:06pm
Subject: Saless (Was: 25 Directors) sallitt1
> The Saless films that made the greatest impact on me (mostly during the
> 70s) were Still Life, Far from Home and Diary of a Lover. I only
> recently discovered that Saless had died in 1998-he is so little
> discussed and written about I suspect because his work is hard to find
> with even the boutique DVD outfits seemingly uninterested. I can
> remember when his work evoked Bresson comparisons (here in Sydney at
> least).
I wonder if Sydney is ahead of the rest of the world here. Does anyone
remember whether Saless's films were shown in New York or Paris during the
70s? I wasn't aware of him until 1981 (when UTOPIA played Filmex in LA).
- Dan
24926
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:29pm
Subject: Armitage (Was: American Cinema updates) sallitt1
> Someday I mean to look up Armitage's 1970s Corman features, although
> only Night Duty Nurses (tempting title, that) is available on video,
> and I don't guess a retrospective is in the cards.
He wrote a number of Corman films, but he directed only one, I believe:
PRIVATE DUTY NURSES, which is interesting but pretty limited. HIT MAN is
where I feel that Armitage's style really emerges. There's a certain
strain of American personality - intellect driven into laconic, stoical
forms of expression - that Armitage does to perfection. - Dan
24927
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:59pm
Subject: Re: American Cinema updates racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> I finally finished my post-1968 update of Sarris' director
rankings. It
> got pretty massive, so instead of posting it here, I uploaded it (as
an
> Excel file) to the group's Files section.
Just to let everyone know, I'll be posting the cumulative and
individual data in the Files section for both this and the Top 25
Director poll.
Rick
24928
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:06pm
Subject: Re: Armitage (Was: American Cinema updates) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> He wrote a number of Corman films, but he directed
> only one, I believe:
> PRIVATE DUTY NURSES, which is interesting but pretty
> limited. HIT MAN is
> where I feel that Armitage's style really emerges.
> There's a certain
> strain of American personality - intellect driven
> into laconic, stoical
> forms of expression - that Armitage does to
> perfection.
Armitage worte Corman's apocalpse comedy "G-a-s-s" and
among his directorial credits is "Hit Man" -- a
blackspolitation remake of "Get Carter" with bernie
casey in the Michael Caine role.
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24929
From: programming
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:25pm
Subject: Re: The spit trick (Was: Recent Warhol film experience) cfprogramming
On 3/27/05 9:07 PM, "Dan Sallitt" wrote:
>> > So I finally said what's to lose, went up and and showed her the spit
>> > trick.
>
> I've done a little projecting in my day, but...what's the spit trick? -
> Dan
>
>
Dan,
You put a little spit on two fingers and then "pinch" the film before it
goes through the gate, thus transferring the spit to the film. Sometimes
the spit will catch any hair stuck in the gate.
But, my understanding is that this is not good for the film (the spit and
touching the film with your fingers). I use isopropyl alcohol (used to
clean the gate) and try to use qtips to apply the alcohol.
Doesn't always work, but I almost never have any luck with canned air.
Patrick F.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
24930
From: "samfilms2003"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:40pm
Subject: Re: The spit trick (Was: Recent Warhol film experience) samfilms2003
But Patrick, the spit forms a barrier between the grease on
your fingers and the film ;-)
I don't pinch, just dab, try to guess if its on emulsion or base side,
less is more. Probably ideally it's not good for the film but I've done
it projecting my own prints, can't see problems.... dust or hair rubbing
against the film in the gate not good either.
-Sam
> You put a little spit on two fingers and then "pinch" the film before it
> goes through the gate, thus transferring the spit to the film. Sometimes
> the spit will catch any hair stuck in the gate.
>
> But, my understanding is that this is not good for the film (the spit and
> touching the film with your fingers). I use isopropyl alcohol (used to
> clean the gate) and try to use qtips to apply the alcohol.
>
> Doesn't always work, but I almost never have any luck with canned air.
>
> Patrick F.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
24931
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:44pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>
> > I feel as if Walters' musicals have a winking quality
> of openly acknowledging the fiction: "Hey, let's get
> this musical started!" instead of preparation or
> character development. It's easy to be reflexive with
> the musical, but I get more of a sense than usual that
> Walters and the characters are communicating with the
> audience directly, exposing the story as a fun pretext.
>
> I just rewatched "Easter Parade" and Dan has it exactly
> right.
>
> Walters is always inviting the audience in, to share the music
> and the joy of performance instead of presenting the
> film as an objet d'art for the audience's delectation (Minnelli).
This is just a caricature of Minnelli's work. But aside from that,
I'm not sure that I see any of this "winking quality" that Dan talks
about in relation to Walters. I'll grant that the films are lighter
in tone than Minnelli's and consequently the performers are often
more relaxed and probably having a better time on the set -- although
this does not necessarily make for better cinema. I would love to see
some more specific examples from the films that convey this sense of
direct communication with the audience and in such a way that they
exceed genre norms. The example Dan just gave of the dance hall
rehearsal from "Easter Parade" is not, to my eyes, an example of
this, although it has wonderful interplay between Garland and
Astaire. That scene IS very much about character development, as it
crucially establishes the beginning of the troubled relationship
Garland and Astaire will be having.
>
> And in those moments when the movie is not "performing,"
> e.g., the scene in the restaurant where Garland tells Lawford
> that she is in love with Astaire, Walters has the camera hold
> them in a two-shot that grows increasingly tight as the camera
> moves in, as if it were squeezing the emotions out of the
> frame -- Walters provides moments of emotion and character
> rather than banal dialogue scenes that only serve to move the
> plot to the next musical sequence.
But doesn't this "squeezing" of emotion contradict the idea that his
films are often winking at the audience to not take them all that
seriously?
>
> And in this viewing, when Miller asks Astaire to dance in
> front of Garland, I was struck by the intense eroticism of the
> scene, as if Astaire were rising to have sex with Miller one last
> time to make sure he was really over her. The more I watch
> Walters, the richer his films reveal themselves to be.
There may be a stray element here of the original scene constructed
by Minnelli, Hackett, and Goodrich, in which Astaire's character is
pulled up to the stage by Ann Miller's, a moment described in the
script as one in which she seems to have an almost hypnotic hold over
him. This would certainly be consistent with Minnelli's interest in
hypnosis and the desire of one charismatic individual to hold power
over and transform another. With Walters, it's more like Astaire
feels a form of social pressure in relation to Miller since she is
asking him to dance in front of a room full of applauding people.
Walters, like Minnelli (or Cukor), makes films about performers and
about the various types of theatrical and social performances that
his characters are caught up in. In the case of Walters, you can even
see this in a piece of fluff like "Three Guys Named Mike," in which
ex-amateur actress Jane Wyman forsakes the theater and becomes an
airline stewardess with the implication being that both professions
involve forms of performance. But Walters's films are consistently
light in tone and in this regard he's almost the anti-Minnelli. This
lightness is part of the great charm of Walters's work but I think it
also limits it in that he never (for me) pushes the implications of
his work far enough, thematically or formally, in the manner of the
greatest of theatrical filmmakers, from Minnelli and Cukor to Renoir
and Ophuls.
>
24932
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
I
> would love to see
> some more specific examples from the films that
> convey this sense of
> direct communication with the audience and in such a
> way that they
> exceed genre norms. The example Dan just gave of the
> dance hall
> rehearsal from "Easter Parade" is not, to my eyes,
> an example of
> this, although it has wonderful interplay between
> Garland and
> Astaire. That scene IS very much about character
> development, as it
> crucially establishes the beginning of the troubled
> relationship
> Garland and Astaire will be having.
> >
Correct.But there's "winking" galore in the "Couple of
Swells" number -- which was garland's special
favorite. In fact when she started up her concert
career in 1951 she performed it at the palace
accompanied by -- Charles Walters.
Others who've done the Astaire part in the number for
her include Paul Sand.
Walters "winking" is all over the place in "Summer
Stock," particularly the "Happy Harvest" number --
which is written straight but played as camp.
But Walters's films
> are consistently
> light in tone and in this regard he's almost the
> anti-Minnelli. This
> lightness is part of the great charm of Walters's
> work but I think it
> also limits it in that he never (for me) pushes the
> implications of
> his work far enough, thematically or formally, in
> the manner of the
> greatest of theatrical filmmakers, from Minnelli and
> Cukor to Renoir
> and Ophuls.
>
Oh yes he does -- in his greatest critical and
commerciall success, "Lili."
This film ran for close to two years non-stop at the
Trans-Lux theater in New York -- a "art" house. It was
a "prestige" MGM release on par with "Lust for Life"
and "An American in Paris" and enjoyed by audiences at
the time over and over again. I grew up with this film
and it's hard to get my mind around the fact that
today rather than being as famous as all the other MGM
films of its era it now ranks as one of the most
obscure.
Walter is indeed the anti-Minnelli. But is lightness
of spirit shouldn't obscure his attnetion to real
pain.
Prime examples include the "Better Luck Next Time"
number in "Easter Parade" and "Little Girl Blue" in
"Billy Rose's Jumbo."
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24933
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:42pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
>
> Walters "winking" is all over the place in "Summer
> Stock," particularly the "Happy Harvest" number --
> which is written straight but played as camp.
But doesn't Garland often "wink" at her audience in this manner, with
and without Walters? You can see her slight ironic detachment from
her films pretty early on, at least as early as 1940 or '41. Of
course this was the great problem Minnelli originally had with her
on "St. Louis." She was "kidding" the material. I'm more interested
in whether this quality is something one can isolate across Walters's
body of work, with and without Garland, and then once we have done so
(if we have done so) what the actual value of this approach to his
material is. You seem to be describing it as camp and it may very
well be that, at least in "Happy Harvest." But I'm not sure if this
is the same thing Dan means, although it may be related. Maybe he'll
weigh in on this at some point.
>
>
> But Walters's films
> > are consistently
> > light in tone and in this regard he's almost the
> > anti-Minnelli. This
> > lightness is part of the great charm of Walters's
> > work but I think it
> > also limits it in that he never (for me) pushes the
> > implications of
> > his work far enough, thematically or formally, in
> > the manner of the
> > greatest of theatrical filmmakers, from Minnelli and
> > Cukor to Renoir
> > and Ophuls.
> >
>
> Oh yes he does -- in his greatest critical and
> commerciall success, "Lili."
Ah. I haven't seen that one since I was a teenager and I found it
rather dreary. But I'm sure that I was unfair to it. (I was a
teenager a LONG time ago.) I'll have to take another look. It
may "unlock" the rest of the films for me.
>
>
> Walter is indeed the anti-Minnelli. But is lightness
> of spirit shouldn't obscure his attnetion to real
> pain.
> Prime examples include the "Better Luck Next Time"
> number in "Easter Parade" and "Little Girl Blue" in
> "Billy Rose's Jumbo."
These are both very nice numbers. For me, though, they don't
function any more "deeply" than the ballads in almost any
conventional musical. Do you see something here that goes deeper
than, say, "By Myself" in "The Band Wagon," or "Bill" in "Show Boat,"
or "Never Gonna Dance," in "Swing Time?" Is Walters on to something
special here?
>
> __________________________________________________
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24934
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> But doesn't Garland often "wink" at her audience in
> this manner, with
> and without Walters? You can see her slight ironic
> detachment from
> her films pretty early on, at least as early as 1940
> or '41. Of
> course this was the great problem Minnelli
> originally had with her
> on "St. Louis." She was "kidding" the material.
Oh that's true. But Walters was present throughout. He
staged all the musical numbers in "Meet Me in
St.Louis" as well as that masterpeice of camp "A Great
lady Has an Interview" in "Ziegfeld Follies."
Garland's camping saves "The Pirate" -- during which
she was having a massive breakdown. Going back to work
with Chuck on "Easter Parade" cheered her up markedly.
I'm
> more interested
> in whether this quality is something one can isolate
> across Walters's
> body of work, with and without Garland, and then
> once we have done so
> (if we have done so) what the actual value of this
> approach to his
> material is. You seem to be describing it as camp
> and it may very
> well be that, at least in "Happy Harvest." But I'm
> not sure if this
> is the same thing Dan means, although it may be
> related. Maybe he'll
> weigh in on this at some point.
> >
> >
Well this does indeed call for a lot of close analysis
-- which at this point in the morning I'm not quite up
to. I will say, hoever, that I've become more aware
recently of Walters' importance thorugh the influence
he's had on Rivette and the team of Ducastel &
Martineau.
> Ah. I haven't seen that one since I was a teenager
> and I found it
> rather dreary. But I'm sure that I was unfair to it.
> (I was a
> teenager a LONG time ago.) I'll have to take another
> look. It
> may "unlock" the rest of the films for me.
> >
Well I was a lot younger and found it absolutely
thrilling. The notion of a de[ressive, uneasy in the
real world, expressing himself though puppets is
rather profound -- particularly when the object of his
affection takes the puppets for real people.
And she's absolutely right to do so.
>
> These are both very nice numbers. For me, though,
> they don't
> function any more "deeply" than the ballads in
> almost any
> conventional musical. Do you see something here that
> goes deeper
> than, say, "By Myself" in "The Band Wagon," or
> "Bill" in "Show Boat,"
> or "Never Gonna Dance," in "Swing Time?" Is Walters
> on to something
> special here?
>
>
Yes. I would also add the "Friendly Star" number in
"Summer Stock" -- which we discussed in here a short
while back.
Walters works very, very close to his actors. The more
I examine his films the more I'm convinced there's
something special about this deeply physical intimacy.
He's not looking at his actors from across the set.
He's right IN THERE. That's why Rivette rates him so
highly.
Make no mistake, Minnelli is a great, great stylist.
What Walters is doing is a lot subtler. That's why
Freed insisted he re-shoot "The Night They Invented
Champagne" and the title song in "Gigi." They were
beyond Minnelli's ken.
He's Ozu to Minnelli's Mizoguchi.
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24935
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Calling All Rockers hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> >
> >
> > God help me, I've only seen In Cold Blood, and that very recently,
> > because I had to write on it.
>
> Do you mean you deliberately avoided seeing any Brooks film
> until "very recently"? And you watched IN COLD BLOOD only because you
> had to? It would be interesting to know the reasons for that more than
> benign neglect. It's really astonishing, especially from a person like
> you who seems to have seen almost everything. It's not that Brooks
> movies are difficult to find either, at least not the major ones. I'm
> really perplexed. JPC
I meant just the ones on Blake's list, which was a list of "neglected" Brooks films.
Actually, I dimly remember seeing In Cold Blood before - it was an event at the time
of its release, but I only learned to appreciate its qualities (as opposed to its
shrieking defects) when I had to research it and write about it.
24936
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> But Walters's films
> > are consistently
> > light in tone and in this regard he's almost the
> > anti-Minnelli. This
> > lightness is part of the great charm of Walters's
> > work but I think it
> > also limits it in that he never (for me) pushes the
> > implications of
> > his work far enough, thematically or formally, in
> > the manner of the
> > greatest of theatrical filmmakers, from Minnelli and
> > Cukor to Renoir
> > and Ophuls.
> >
>
> Oh yes he does -- in his greatest critical and
> commerciall success, "Lili."
>
> This film ran for close to two years non-stop at the
> Trans-Lux theater in New York -- a "art" house. It was
> a "prestige" MGM release on par with "Lust for Life"
> and "An American in Paris" and enjoyed by audiences at
> the time over and over again. I grew up with this film
> and it's hard to get my mind around the fact that
> today rather than being as famous as all the other MGM
> films of its era it now ranks as one of the most
> obscure.
>
> Walter is indeed the anti-Minnelli. But is lightness
> of spirit shouldn't obscure his attnetion to real
> pain.
> Prime examples include the "Better Luck Next Time"
> number in "Easter Parade" and "Little Girl Blue" in
> "Billy Rose's Jumbo."
An earlier post which described Minnelli's musicals as "objets d'art"
irked me enough I was tempted to reply, though could not have done
so more eloquently than Joe did. As I wrote to Joe a few days ago
if I started to get involved in this little dispute about Minnelli
and Walters I'd end up soaking up way too much time and energy I
don't want to spend on the subject right now. Besides, if there is
a stronger consensus among a_f_b members for Walters, it's actually
kind of interesting. And I have no desire to kick a director I like
a lot in the case of Walters. Also most of the things said about
him have been very apt, though are worth exploring more.
Instead of getting into the argument I just wanted to comment on the
above from David, who just happens to have named my favorite Walters
movie Lili, which does have a lot of depth as well as charm.
Minnelli said he turned this down, and in this case I'm glad that
Walters directed it. He was the perfect guy to create an ineffable
effect in that interaction of Lili and the puppets, which plays as
well for me now as when I was very young. And the lightness I also
associate with Walters did not stop him from catching the dark side
of the Mel Ferrer character and the troubled undercurrents that play
between him and Caron until that wonderful final ballet resolves
them. Also, David went on to mention my two favorite performances
of songs in Walters with "Better Luck Next Time" and "Little Girl
Blue." These two numbers and Lili are a really good place to start
if one wants to balance one's portrait of him as just easygoing,
casual and lighthearted.
Blake __________________________________________________
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24937
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Easter Parade) joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> >
>
>Walters was present throughout. He
> staged all the musical numbers in "Meet Me in
> St.Louis"
I was talking to a dance scholar named Beth Genne several months ago.
She had interviewed Minnelli a few times in the 1980s, most recently
about a year or so before he died. By that point he was suffering
from...I forget the name of the disease: It begins with the
letter "A" and it's not Alzheimer's. It's what happens when you want
to speak but there's a gap of several seconds or even minutes between
the function of your brain and your ability to put something into
words. Anyway, she brought up Walters's contribution to "St. Louis"
and to some statement she had run across somewhere that Walters had
not just choregraphed but directed the "Skip to My Lou" number.
Minnelli's mouth begin to quiver and he looked quite agitated but was
unable to say anything. They eventually sat down and watched his
print of "St. Louis" together and when the camera began its first
major craning movement in the "Skip to My Lou" number he leaned over
to her, touched her on the knee, pointed to the screen and said,
quite forcibly, "I remember setting up THAT shot."
> Garland's camping saves "The Pirate" -- during which
> she was having a massive breakdown. Going back to work
> with Chuck on "Easter Parade" cheered her up markedly.
Well, I think "The Pirate" is a great film and doesn't need camp
to "save" it. The entire project is permeated by camp anyway.
>
>
> Walters works very, very close to his actors. The more
> I examine his films the more I'm convinced there's
> something special about this deeply physical intimacy.
>
> He's not looking at his actors from across the set.
> He's right IN THERE. That's why Rivette rates him so
> highly.
>
> Make no mistake, Minnelli is a great, great stylist.
> What Walters is doing is a lot subtler. That's why
> Freed insisted he re-shoot "The Night They Invented
> Champagne" and the title song in "Gigi." They were
> beyond Minnelli's ken.
>
> He's Ozu to Minnelli's Mizoguchi.
I'm sure that I'm repeating myself and that I posted this information
once before, a while ago. But here I go again. For the record,
Walters did not re-shoot "The Night They Invented Champagne."
Originally the number was to have no dancing. But when Minnelli came
to shoot it he felt it needed something more choreographed. That's
when he asked Walters to supply some choreography. But Walters was
not behind the camera. Unlike Walters, I can't imagine Minnelli
deliberately handing over his camera to someone else for a musical
number.
As for the title number of "Gigi," Walters did indeed do a retake of
it. But none of it appears in the final version. Alan Jay Lerner
originally objected to Minnelli's direction of the number. He felt
that all of the "scenery" distracted from the song and so Walters did
a retake on the backlot with the camera closer to Jourdan. (Minnelli
couldn't do it himself since he was in Paris shooting another film.)
Adrienne Fazan did not think much of this footage and fought to keep
Minnelli's original version in the film and she eventually won her
argument. Even Lerner had to finally admit that there was no
comparison between the two versions. Lerner and company made a
classic error in not understanding how to look at a Minnelli frame,
in which backgrounds and foregrounds, actors and decor are not
competing with one another but are part of complex fabric of visual
and emotional relations.
There is Walters footage in the film, though. "The Parisians" song is
largely his, except for the location footage in the middle of the
number. Lerner and Loewe wanted a retake there because they thought
Previn conducted the song too fast. I think that this is visually the
weakest sequence in the entire film and is clearly not Minnelli.
There are some close-ups of Jourdan in the "She's Not Thinking of Me"
number that are Walters. And I believe that the short penultimate
sequence, when Gaston asks the grandmother for Gigi's hand in
marriage, is either partially or entirely a Walters retake.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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24938
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Easter Parade) cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
They eventually sat down and
> watched his
> print of "St. Louis" together and when the camera
> began its first
> major craning movement in the "Skip to My Lou"
> number he leaned over
> to her, touched her on the knee, pointed to the
> screen and said,
> quite forcibly, "I remember setting up THAT shot."
>
>
Well of course he did. Walters STAGED the number.
Minnelli SHOT it. The same thing happened with "A
Great Lady has an Interview" in "Ziegfeld Follies."
Every bit of STAGING was his. I sense Minnelli opnly
in the enormous flower Garland places in her hair a la
Lena Horne in "Cabin in the Sky."
Besides the number is a collaborative effort in that
its ultimate auteur is Kay Thompson -- inventing "rap"
in the process ("So there she was in Ams-ter-dam!")
>
> I'm sure that I'm repeating myself and that I posted
> this information
> once before, a while ago. But here I go again. For
> the record,
> Walters did not re-shoot "The Night They Invented
> Champagne."
> Originally the number was to have no dancing. But
> when Minnelli came
> to shoot it he felt it needed something more
> choreographed. That's
> when he asked Walters to supply some choreography.
OK, fine. he was hired to do the usual.
> But Walters was
> not behind the camera. Unlike Walters, I can't
> imagine Minnelli
> deliberately handing over his camera to someone else
> for a musical
> number.
>
Well he did, and often. Eugene Loring staged the
numbers in "Yolanda and the Thief" (the guiltiest of
all guilty pleasures) They certainly represent a lot
of Minnelli's ideas vis-a-vis surrealism but (and this
is going to get me in a lot of trouble I know)
Minnelli isn't really that much of a director of
musicals. His true metier is drama: "The Bad and the
Beautiful," "Some Came Running," "Two Weeks in Another
Town" and comedies like "Father of the Bride" and "The
Courtship of Eddie's Father" are Minnelli to me.
Of his musicals I like "Cabin in the Sky," and "An
American in Paris." But I would argue that "Gigi" is
really a drama with a few songs, and "Meet Me in St.
Louis" is really a very dark film about childhood --
with a few songs.
> As for the title number of "Gigi," Walters did
> indeed do a retake of
> it. But none of it appears in the final version.
> Alan Jay Lerner
> originally objected to Minnelli's direction of the
> number. He felt
> that all of the "scenery" distracted from the song
> and so Walters did
> a retake on the backlot with the camera closer to
> Jourdan. (Minnelli
> couldn't do it himself since he was in Paris
> shooting another film.)
> Adrienne Fazan did not think much of this footage
> and fought to keep
> Minnelli's original version in the film and she
> eventually won her
> argument. Even Lerner had to finally admit that
> there was no
> comparison between the two versions. Lerner and
> company made a
> classic error in not understanding how to look at a
> Minnelli frame,
> in which backgrounds and foregrounds, actors and
> decor are not
> competing with one another but are part of complex
> fabric of visual
> and emotional relations.
>
> There is Walters footage in the film, though. "The
> Parisians" song is
> largely his, except for the location footage in the
> middle of the
> number. Lerner and Loewe wanted a retake there
> because they thought
> Previn conducted the song too fast. I think that
> this is visually the
> weakest sequence in the entire film and is clearly
> not Minnelli.
> There are some close-ups of Jourdan in the "She's
> Not Thinking of Me"
> number that are Walters. And I believe that the
> short penultimate
> sequence, when Gaston asks the grandmother for
> Gigi's hand in
> marriage, is either partially or entirely a Walters
> retake.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources
> site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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24939
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:35pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> He's Ozu to Minnelli's Mizoguchi.
>
I hope that doesn't mean that Donen somehow equates to Naruse,
David.
I wrote to support what you said about Lili and those other two
numbers which I like so much, but when I see someone call Minnelli
a "stylist" at this late date--even a "great, great stylist" I know
it's time to return to work on my Minnelli book.
Collaborate though he might on all aspects of a film, the worlds of
Minnelli's films are created by him and they are his in a way the
work of only the greatest artists can be. St. Louis is a great
example in its interplay of actors, movement, decor, the kind of
richness within the frame, both visually and behaviorally, to which
Joe alludes. Joe was quite right to remind that Garland came in
ready to send up her role (Minnelli initially compared her
unfavorably to Bremer, who was already doing her role perfectly) and
when I compare Judy (definitely one of the most talented people ever
to grace the screen) in this to any of her roles before, I see
someone who has matured enough to become one with a role and even,
in this case, take her place in an ensemble to pleasing effect.
Minnelli shaped this performance and the subsequent one in The
Clock, which I consider her two best, especially the latter, in
which she doesn't even sing. And Walters benefitted from this
greater maturity when he directed her, even if he does let her out
of character a little more at times. Also, it doesn't take anything
away from the contribution of Walters' choreography in Meet Me in
St. Louis to say that close analysis reveals a camera style as well
as specific ideas (like Esther at the window in "The Boy Next Door")
animating all the numbers which are purely Minnelli's.
Joe's knowledge of the Gigi retakes is ahead of mine, since there
have been different accounts--it was always my understanding that
the final version of the title number was the one Minnelli
originally shot. I agree that "the Parisians" is the dullest.
One thing that should always be kept in mind when looking at MGM
musical directors of the period is that they all basically follow
the same long take approach (intimated in Astaire's musicals of the
30s on Astaire's own insistence), though individually inflected.
This goes for Walters and Donen, and even, mostly, George Sidney (in
these the Rob Marshalls and Baz Luhrmann's of today are the
opposite). But Minnelli, with the first masterpieces from the Freed
unit, did most to shape that style, as he did to transform the
studio's art department. I can't imagine Walters and Donen would
not acknowledge some influence, but Minnelli would say he was
influenced by Max Ophuls, with whom he really has more in common, I
believe.
Just in passing Joe--
> > These are both very nice numbers. For me, though,
> > they don't
> > function any more "deeply" than the ballads in
> > almost any
> > conventional musical. Do you see something here that
> > goes deeper
> > than, say, "By Myself" in "The Band Wagon," or
> > "Bill" in "Show Boat,"
> > or "Never Gonna Dance," in "Swing Time?" Is Walters
> > on to something
> > special here?
Can you possibly be suggesting that these songs don't all go deep
enough? They're all pretty soulful and work wonders for each of the
movies in question, don't they? And that's not to compare the
movies, but these are five beautifully done numbers.
And that's a lot more than I wanted to get into all this right now.
Blake
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24940
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Easter Parade) joe_mcelhaney
> >
>>
> > But Walters was
> > not behind the camera. Unlike Walters, I can't
> > imagine Minnelli
> > deliberately handing over his camera to someone else
> > for a musical
> > number.
> >
> Well he did, and often. Eugene Loring staged the
> numbers in "Yolanda and the Thief" (the guiltiest of
> all guilty pleasures)
Doing the choreography for a number is not necessarily the same thing
as being responsible for the direction of the entire sequence.
Loring (or Michael Kidd or whoever) would stage the dances for a
Minnelli musical. But it was Minnelli (in collaboration with his
choreographers, of course) who would determine the placements and
movements of the camera and the integration of the decor with the
dance. A Minnelli musical number has its own particular conception of
movement and space. The meanings and emotional responses one might
have to the numbers are so often related to not simply the dance or
the performance of the song but to all of the elements of the mise-en-
scene working in dialogue with one another. So many great musical
numbers do this, of course, but in the case of Minnelli there is an
intensity and richness to the mise-en-scene which exceeds that of
Walters, Donen, Sidney, etc., hence (for example) Lerner's complaint
that Minnelli's camerawork distracted the viewer from the content of
the songs. Gene Kelly has said that when he would stage a dance
sequence or even attempt set up a shot for a dance number in a
particular manner with Minnelli, Minnelli would always bring
something else (an idea about camera placement or movement or
whatever)which would completely transform the number.
They certainly represent a lot
> of Minnelli's ideas vis-a-vis surrealism but (and this
> is going to get me in a lot of trouble I know)
> Minnelli isn't really that much of a director of
> musicals.
Oh, I pass on this claim. Someone else can go for it, if they
want.
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
24941
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
>
> >
> Just in passing Joe--
>
> > > These are both very nice numbers. For me, though,
> > > they don't
> > > function any more "deeply" than the ballads in
> > > almost any
> > > conventional musical. Do you see something here that
> > > goes deeper
> > > than, say, "By Myself" in "The Band Wagon," or
> > > "Bill" in "Show Boat,"
> > > or "Never Gonna Dance," in "Swing Time?" Is Walters
> > > on to something
> > > special here?
>
>
> Can you possibly be suggesting that these songs don't all go deep
> enough? They're all pretty soulful and work wonders for each of
the
> movies in question, don't they? And that's not to compare the
> movies, but these are five beautifully done numbers.
Oh, not at all. I was just baiting David. Off the top of my head, I
was just listing five numbers that always move me profoundly.
Wonderful post, Blake. Typically insightful. And what a comfort to
know that I'm not battling the elements alone.
>
>
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
24942
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade cinebklyn
Joe writes:
> This is just a caricature of Minnelli's work.
No, I don't think it is. I always feel as if
Minnelli were building a stylistic edifice in
order to mask something he did not want
the audience to see.
> I'll grant that the films are lighter in tone
than Minnelli's and consequently the
performers are often more relaxed and
probably having a better time on the set --
although this does not necessarily make for
better cinema.
What I think makes for better cinema is
Walters' directness as opposed to Minnelli's
clutteredness, both emotionally and visually.
> I would love to see some more specific
examples from the films that convey this
sense of direct communication with the
audience and in such a way that they
exceed genre norms.
I can only reiterate what David has said.
The "Better Luck Next Time" number is
emotionally riveting to me. For me,
Walters finds the perfect distance to
place the camera in front of Judy Garland.
Also, in the first two renditions of "It Only
Happens When I Dance With," the camera
seems to me to be in the only place it could
be.
Minnelli to me always seems to be creating
eye candy to be consumed -- as David says
he keeps the camera back. Minnelli is the
auteur as consumerist. He is in the
business of producing beautiful images,
which he does, but I always feel he adds that
one extra touch or flourish that sinks the
shot for me.
> But doesn't this "squeezing" of emotion
contradict the idea that his films are often winking
at the audience to not take them all that
seriously?
No, why should it? Walters talent is capacious
enough that a film can be composed of both
light and serious moments.
> With Walters, it's more like Astaire feels a form of
social pressure in relation to Miller since she is asking
him to dance in front of a room full of applauding people.
On the surface it may be social pressure, but there is
definitely an undercurrent of eroticism which is Walters.
Had Minnelli filmed it, he would not have been able to
bring off both levels simultaneously. It would have
been heavier and cluttered (I know you see Minnelli
as intense and rich in his visuals, but they just don't
affect me that way. My quick homo shorthand for the
two is that Minnelli is the tormented fop and Walters the
level-headed queer).
> But Walters's films are consistently light in tone and in
this regard he's almost the anti-Minnelli.
You have it backwards: Minnelli is the anti-Walters.
> This lightness is part of the great charm of Walters's work
but I think it also limits it in that he never (for me) pushes
the implications of his work far enough . . .
For me it is just the opposite, with Minnelli getting himself
lost in quagmires of confused emotions, while Walters'
approach -- one of lightness, sophistication, clarity and
charm -- conveys more wisdom about human behavior than
Minnelli's does.
I also agree with David that Minnelli is more successful in
drama -- my favorites are "Some Came Running" and
"Home from the Hill." Here his "tormented" style works
to good effect for me.
Minnelli's critical triumph is due to the fact that people say:
"Gosh, Minnelli's films are deep. If I can see all this in them,
then I must be deep too." It was the same trick Eugene O'Neill
used in the 20's to become a success. There is a great book
about it called "Staging Depth."
> thematically or formally, in the manner of the greatest of
theatrical filmmakers, from Minnelli and Cukor to Renoir
and Ophuls.
You've forgotten Mankiewicz who is the greatest theatrical
director of all.
Brian
24943
From: Peter Henne
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bergman and Bresson [Was: 25 directors] peterhenne
Online Now Send IM
My position comes out of Modernism 1A. Film (and visual art in general) holds an ambiguous position between object and artifice. When we experience a visual artwork we experience it "seeing-as," e.g., as flickering shadows, but also as three-dimensional; and as actors speaking lines, but also as people living out conflicts. Most films tend to suppress this first aspect, and some filmmakers like Cassavetes and the later Bergman don't. They embrace the contradiction. With the exception of the film theatre sequence in "Four Nights of a Dreamer," Bresson maintains the illusion of drama. It could be said that he wishes to collapse object and artifice together, at least insofar as our attention is placed on the models. My own take is that he is a storyteller--we are led to follow the dramatic arc of characters like in any film--but he implies objectness, through stylization by extreme compositional simplification, the rejection of the star system, the already-mentioned training of
non-professionals, the highly noticeable role of sound, and several other means. This is just a sketch, and these tendencies do not add up to his style.
I feel like we could re-enact the argument over professional actors in the 1966 Cahiers du Cinema interview with Bresson conducted by Godard and Delahaye. Godard maintains an actor is a person and, by Bresson's own standards, any person might be cast in a film. Bresson says no, professional actors cannot be. I come out on the side of Godard.
Peter Henne
Maxime Renaudin wrote:
I reproach him for not choosing between illusion and its
negation (both approaches being tenable). Moreover, I feel that he
chose illusion but with an inappropriate, not to say contradictory,
film system. I don't accuse him of being dishonest (I respect his
work); I simply feel there is something wrong with the whole thing.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
24944
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
I always feel as if
> Minnelli were building a stylistic edifice in
> order to mask something he did not want
> the audience to see.
>
Well I can't agree with you on that. Much of Minnelli
is involved with Revelation Write Large. Think of the
scene in"The Bad and the Beautiful" where Kirk Douglas
destroys the shrine Lana Turner (clearly evoking Diana
Barrymore) has created to her father.
Bust of all there's the scene in "Two Weeks in Another
Town" where Doiglas realizes the best camera position
for the scene he's shooting is the one Minnelli has
taken to shoot everything.
The bug Cyd Charisse orgy scene in the same film (with
Leslie Uggams singing Minnelli's favorte song, "Don't
Blame Me") is likewise revelatory.
Minnelli likes to SHOW you stuff.
>
> What I think makes for better cinema is
> Walters' directness as opposed to Minnelli's
> clutteredness, both emotionally and visually.
>
Clutter has its truth. The best thing in the
essentially unfinished "A Matter of Time" is the scene
where Liza walks out of the casino and into a ballroom
where an orchestra is playing and sings "Do It Again."
Lots of clutter, lovingly detailed.
>
>
__________________________________
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24945
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Armitage (Was: American Cinema updates) habelove
He also had a real zany, surrealistic gag-writing streak. Corman's post-
apocalyptic comedy Gas-s-s-s- has some inspired Pythonesque sketches, like the
former football team pep talk about their upcoming rape-and-pillage session of a
neighboring town.
But the real gem is Darktown Strutters, a psychedelic blaxplotiation film perhaps
the single most jaw-dropping film I've ever seen. It's so
bizarre it actally hurts after a while. The plot is about an racist Colonel Sanders
style magnate, who is planning on destroying the black community by kidnapping
and cloning their leaders, then brainwashing them to vote for white people.
Wonderful musical numbers pop up randomly, some of them quite good, and the
production is cartoonish and occasionally inspired --the police sirens are the size
of an ottoman (my friend saw this and said, "this movie IS marijuana."). The
director, William Witney, started out doing serial westerns in the 30's, and his style
is completely incongrous to the proceedings. So I've always felt the real auteur of
this film was obviously Armitage, whose shown me more than once he can reach to
the moon to find a strange gag.
Hadrian
> He wrote a number of Corman films, but he directed only one, I believe:
> PRIVATE DUTY NURSES, which is interesting but pretty limited. HIT MAN is
> where I feel that Armitage's style really emerges. There's a certain
> strain of American personality - intellect driven into laconic, stoical
> forms of expression - that Armitage does to perfection. - Dan
24946
From: "Josh Mabe"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:06pm
Subject: Films at USC... come on out next week if you're nearby brack_28
at the Russell House
USC
Columbia, SC
April 6, 8PM
Warren Sonbert's Friendly Witness
Michael Snow's New York Eye and Ear Control
April 6, 9.15PM
Owen Land's On the Marriage Broker Joke as Cited by Sigmund Freud in
Wit and its Relation to the Unconscious or Can the Avant-Garde
Artist be Wholed?
Julie Murray's Untitled (light) & Fl. Oz
Robert Breer's Breathing, Fuji, & Bang
April 7, 8PM
Ken Jacobs's Blonde Cobra
Christopher Maclaine's The End
April 7, 9.20 PM
Lewis Klahr's Daylight Moon
Nick Dorsky's The Visitation
Bruce Baillie's All My Life
Standish Lawder's Colorfilm
Daniel Barnett's The Ogre
...maybe there are too many titles for just two days, but I can only
hit up the school for cash once a semester, so I have to take
advantage of every dollar they let me use.
24947
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:07pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade cinebklyn
David writes:
> Minnelli likes to SHOW you stuff.
Agreed, but I often feel as if he is
a salesman showing his wares. I
am never totally convinced he is
trying to communicate anything,
but rather selling something -- a
notion of beauty perhaps.
Saturday night I watched "The
Bandwagon" prior to seeing
"Easter Parade," and it just
seemed Minnelli was trying a
lot harder that Walters was to
"make" a musical.
> Clutter has its truth.
Truth can be found amidst clutter,
but is truth ever cluttered? It can be
variegated and mutlifaceted, but
cluttered?
I guess for me Minnelli's clutter is not
eloquent or maybe I cannot speak its
language.
To me, Minnelli's films are symbolic
of their times: overstuffed, overfed
movies for a complacent, overfed
America living in their new suburban
overstuffed homes. It was a time to
celebrate acquisition (in terms of both
material goods and psychological depth),
and Minnelli's film and their clutter were
the perfect objective correlatives for the
time.
> Lots of clutter, lovingly detailed.
And that was the ethos of the times: you
can never possess too much stuff --
lovingly detailed to show your good taste
of course.
Walters films are less remembered since
he traveled light -- Cary Grant's wave at
the end of "Walk, Don't Run" or Fred
Astaire on air in "The Belle of New York."
He achieved profundity without staging
depth.
Brian
24948
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Easter Parade) blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
>
>
> They certainly represent a lot
> > of Minnelli's ideas vis-a-vis surrealism but (and this
> > is going to get me in a lot of trouble I know)
> > Minnelli isn't really that much of a director of
> > musicals.
>
> Oh, I pass on this claim. Someone else can go for it, if they
> want.
>
And that's an assertion I have no desire to respond to either, nor
to later post which seemed to refer rather gratuitously to the
sexuality of both Walters and Minnelli. May I gently suggest that
may not be the key to everything some people think it is?
As regards Minnelli's talent or lack of it for musicals, it's
interesting that both of you prefer Minnelli's melodramas (and maybe
comedies). For years, the conventional wisdom was that he was only
good at musicals and was out of his depth otherwise, the opposite
point of view.
I will just say objectively--and I'm sure Joe will support me on this
--that to those who think of Minnelli as one of the greatest of all
film artists, his musicals, comedies and melodramas are all of a
piece and we do not value his work in one genre over another.
Blake
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
24949
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:21pm
Subject: Re: Armitage (Was: American Cinema updates) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Hadrian" wrote:
>
> But the real gem is Darktown Strutters, a psychedelic blaxplotiation film perhaps
> the single most jaw-dropping film I've ever seen. It's so
> bizarre it actally hurts after a while. The plot is about a racist Colonel Sanders
> style magnate, who is planning on destroying the black community by kidnapping
> and cloning their leaders, then brainwashing them to vote for white people.
I wonder if Karl Rove saw this one.
24950
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Walters & Minnelli (was: Easter Parade) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas
wrote:
> >
> And that's an assertion I have no desire to respond
> to either, nor
> to later post which seemed to refer rather
> gratuitously to the
> sexuality of both Walters and Minnelli. May I
> gently suggest that
> may not be the key to everything some people think
> it is?
>
And may I suggest it might?
BTW, Minnelli was Bi, though SUCH a fop that in many
minds he embodied Hollywood gayness. Walters is, of
course, less of a known quantity all around. But his
gayness was VERY important in terms of his work with
Garland. Next to Vito Russo he was the best gay fan
she ever had.
__________________________________
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24951
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
>>
> Saturday night I watched "The
> Bandwagon" prior to seeing
> "Easter Parade," and it just
> seemed Minnelli was trying a
> lot harder that Walters was to
> "make" a musical.
What does this mean, "trying a lot harder to 'make' a musical?"
> > Clutter has its truth.
>
> Truth can be found amidst clutter,
> but is truth ever cluttered? It can be
> variegated and mutlifaceted, but
> cluttered?
Bruegel? Welles? Anyway, Minnelli's frames aren't THAT cluttered.
There's usually some kind of center or "truth" or whatever you want
to call it to the images.
>
> I guess for me Minnelli's clutter is not
> eloquent or maybe I cannot speak its
> language.
>
> To me, Minnelli's films are symbolic
> of their times: overstuffed, overfed
> movies for a complacent, overfed
> America living in their new suburban
> overstuffed homes. It was a time to
> celebrate acquisition (in terms of both
> material goods and psychological depth),
> and Minnelli's film and their clutter were
> the perfect objective correlatives for the
> time.
>
> > Lots of clutter, lovingly detailed.
>
> And that was the ethos of the times: you
> can never possess too much stuff --
> lovingly detailed to show your good taste
> of course.
I disagree with everything you're saying here. The notion that
Minnelli's films are only symptomatic of post-war American
consumerism is not borne out by close attention to the films
themselves. The relationship between Minnelli's films and consumerism
and modernity is a complex one. Jim Naremore writes about it in his
book on Minnelli and I also touch on it in the Minnelli chapter of my
book -- which I just sent off to my publisher this morning. Minnelli
is very strongly drawn towards the display of objects. That's very
obvious. (He did, after all, work as a window dresser.) But leaving
it at that is simply inadequate. A film like "The Long, Long
Trailer," for example, is clearly ABOUT this mania for consumerism,
a "terrifying satire on the American way of life" as Jean Douchet
described this film. It was Douchet (and Domarchi) who in the sixties
wrote about this impulse on the part of Minnelli's characters to
surround themselves with beautiful objects and to bring this world in
line with their desires. But what the films repeatedly dramatize is
the failure of this dream to fully realize itself, hence the
recurring motif of the destruction of decor.
>
24952
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
But what the films
> repeatedly dramatize is
> the failure of this dream to fully realize itself,
> hence the
> recurring motif of the destruction of decor.
> >
A very important point. In "Cabin in the Sky" the
nightclub is destroyed by a tornado -- the very one
form "The Wizard of Oz" in point of fact. Lana
Turner's climactic car ride in "The Bad and the
Beautiful" is entirely about the destruction of her
personality.
And who can forget Shirley MacLaine crumpled up like a
discarded rag doll at the end of "Some Came Running"?
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24953
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) mathieu_ricordi
Quoting David Ehrenstein :
> Hey, I put him (and Pressburger) very high on my list!
>
> Didn't you see it?
Quoting Dan Sallitt :
> He was on my list too.
>
>
>
> Anyway, you shouldn't be bothered when someone is left off a top-25 list -
>
> there just aren't enough slots to go around for all the great directors. -
Quoting Noel Bjorndahl & Carole Dent :
> Where's Powell? High in my 25, that's for sure.
To David Eherenstien, Dan Sallitt, Noel Bjorndahl, Carole Dent,
and all others who had Powell on their lists: I apologize for
missing the fact that you had him, but the fact of the matter is
I read a lot of lists, and none included this cinema giant, so
I felt compelled to write something. But of course, my post
was directed at no one personally, it was a broad stroke, based
on my wish to speak up on what I felt seemed like further neglect
of an undeniable master. That you people responded with your
own personal words of passion for Powell made my ramblings
worth it and then some. As to Dan's comments that I shouldn't
be too upset that lists don't include Powell because 25 is a
small enough number and there are a lot of directors to include,
I would simply respond that oversights on one's favourite directors,
or movies on presentaions such as lists present the perfect opportunity
to sound off about the merits of your prized artist or work. I believe all
of us feel strongly about certain people and would consider them
(as Lord Wendover decrees in Barry Lyndon) "People about whom there
are no questions". Powell is such a figure for me, and even
though I felt other greats were being left off many of your lists,
I had to be selective and I chose him to bring up. Like I said though,
the fact that this all led me to see that the neglect wasn't as big
as I thought it was makes it heart warming to say the least; just
a short while ago I rented a car on several occasions to make a series
of trips from Vancoucer to Seattle to watch some Powell films at the
Seattle Arts Museum (how often are such films seen on the big screen!),
on the night of "A Matter of Life and Death" (Powell's own personal
favourite) was a visit from Thelma Schoonmaker who I got a chance to talk
to afterwards, her various evocations of her late husband's years and
years of living as if in oblivion (no one new of or remembered him) and
of his struggles to get one last project off the ground were frusterating
to the max. Thank God a guy like Martin Scorsese did all he could
to see these films surface once again. But imagine a Powell film in
the 80s as there was rumours of. I heard about a pure fantasy
adventure in the works, but I'll stop now, it would have been something
to behold.
Mathieu Ricordi
24954
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:57pm
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) cellar47
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
> on the night of "A Matter of Life and Death"
> (Powell's own personal
> favourite) was a visit from Thelma Schoonmaker who I
> got a chance to talk
> to afterwards,
Isn't she fabulous? The last time I saw "A Matter of
Life and death' was at the Museum of Flying here in
L.A. Amazing film.
her various evocations of her late
> husband's years and
> years of living as if in oblivion (no one new of or
> remembered him) and
> of his struggles to get one last project off the
> ground were frusterating
> to the max. Thank God a guy like Martin Scorsese did
> all he could
> to see these films surface once again. But imagine a
> Powell film in
> the 80s as there was rumours of. I heard about a
> pure fantasy
> adventure in the works, but I'll stop now, it would
> have been something
> to behold.
>
Zoetrope studios was within walking distance of my
apartment back in the 80's. I wasn't there when "One
From the Heart" was actually being shot but I visited
the set many times. And on several occasions I saw Mr.
Powell riding around the lot on a bicycle dressed in a
powder blue leisure suit and grinnign like a happy
child. Had Zoetrope taken off the way Coppola hoped it
would, Powell would have made a film for Coppola.
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24955
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:04pm
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
Matthieu - Have you seen Bluebeard's Castle? Do you have any idea where it can be
seen? It is certainly thematically related to Peeping Tom!
24956
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:38pm
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals bufordrat
I thought you brought a much-needed dose of feminism to the discussion
of _Shallow Hal_ a while back, in post #21573. I find it persistently
amazing how critics manage to turn a blind eye to the fact that films
like _Shallow Hal_ or _Monster_ offer us the contemporary equivalent of
blackface. Well, not all that amazing, I suppose, in view of our media
culture's complexes around feminine beauty.
I'm inclined to pose the complement of JPC's question: who on the list
isn't a feminist?
-Matt
LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
>I am a feminist, JP. Or rather, to borrow bell hooks' useful phrase, I
>advocate feminism.
>
>Very little of the feminist film theory I've read (which is a lot) is mumbo
>jumbo.
>
>Unsarcastically,
>
>Kevin John
>
>
24957
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:13am
Subject: Re: Easter Parade damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
> I disagree with everything you're saying here. The notion that
> Minnelli's films are only symptomatic of post-war American
> consumerism is not borne out by close attention to the films
> themselves. The relationship between Minnelli's films and consumerism
> and modernity is a complex one. Jim Naremore writes about it in his
> book on Minnelli and I also touch on it in the Minnelli chapter of my
> book -- which I just sent off to my publisher this morning.
Joe, what is your book? Given your eloquence and insight on Minnelli,
I'd certainly look forward to any book by you.
24958
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:16am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
> I thought you brought a much-needed dose of feminism to the
discussion
> of _Shallow Hal_ a while back, in post #21573. I find it
persistently
> amazing how critics manage to turn a blind eye to the fact that
films
> like _Shallow Hal_ or _Monster_ offer us the contemporary
equivalent of
> blackface. Well, not all that amazing, I suppose, in view of our
media
> culture's complexes around feminine beauty.
>
> I'm inclined to pose the complement of JPC's question: who on the
list
> isn't a feminist?
>
> -Matt
>
I feel compelled to respond. I am happy to have found that there
are fervent feminists, or advocate of feminisn, in this all-male
Group. Feminist stances had not been posted here before, but there
was no reason to conclude from it that there were no feminists in
male garb out there. And of course you don't have to be a woman to
be a feminist.
Women who know me tend to think I am the least macho guy they
ever met and who possibly ever lived.
However, before deciding whether I am a feminist or not, I would
need a clear definition of what you and the other defenders of
feminism who were shocked by my post consider 'feminism" to be.
My objection to a "feminist" approach to film criticism is that
feminism is an ideology and I have always been leary of ideological
approaches to criticism.
Of course one might argue that auteurism is an ideology too. Maybe
that's why I have shied away from auteurist tenets as often as I
have adhered to them.
That said, I surely must crawl out of my cave and read some bell
hooks. With a name like that she sure must have something to say.
JPC
> >
24959
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) mathieu_ricordi
Quoting hotlove666 :
> Matthieu - Have you seen Bluebeard's Castle? Do you have any idea where it
> can be
>
> seen? It is certainly thematically related to Peeping Tom!
No sir. Vancouver doesn't have much of anything, and everytime
I want to see something even remotely rare it's always a
Holy Grail type search. Getting things on Ebay alone has
the debts rising to the roof, and when
a friend of mine recently brought back 4 dvds
I had told him to get on his trip to France the
conversion from Euros to CDN dollars had me paying
close to $80 a DVD. The Powell films alone are hard
to get outside of the ones released on Criterion DVD, the one you
mentioned is surely of interest to me (anything along the lines
of "Peeping Tom" is). Of course any info you could give me yourself
would be greatly appreciated.
Mathieu Ricordi
24960
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:39am
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) mathieu_ricordi
Quoting David Ehrenstein :
> Zoetrope studios was within walking distance of my
>
> apartment back in the 80's. I wasn't there when "One
>
> From the Heart" was actually being shot but I visited
>
> the set many times. And on several occasions I saw Mr.
>
> Powell riding around the lot on a bicycle dressed in a
>
> powder blue leisure suit and grinnign like a happy
>
> child. Had Zoetrope taken off the way Coppola hoped it
>
> would, Powell would have made a film for Coppola.
That must have been fantastic, I can imagine Mr. Powell
being a terific personality; there is that particular instance
in the commentary track for Criterion's "Life and Death of Colonel
Blimp" DVD where that amazing scene of the animal head's popping
up on the wall and ending off on the soldier's helmet is being
played and Powell says "I never got that scene right, it wasn't witty
enough, Max Ophuls would have done better" (I disagree, but what a guy
for critiquing himself like that, and what a comment).
Are you saying that if perhaps "One From the Heart" (a film
which I really like by the way, and feel is judged much too harshly),
hadn't been such a bomb, that we could have had an 80s Powell film
almost for certain? It would be ironic, since I think Powell would
have really like that film, an example (although not as succesful as his
own brilliant ones) of what Powell called "a composed film".
Mathieu Ricordi
24961
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 0:53am
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) cellar47
--- Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
>
> Are you saying that if perhaps "One From the Heart"
> (a film
> which I really like by the way, and feel is judged
> much too harshly),
> hadn't been such a bomb, that we could have had an
> 80s Powell film
> almost for certain? It would be ironic, since I
> think Powell would
> have really like that film, an example (although not
> as succesful as his
> own brilliant ones) of what Powell called "a
> composed film".
>
Yes indeed. Coppola was hoping that it would
jump-start his entire project of creating a movie
studio for personal films. Powell was actually on
staff there as an "advisor" -- as was Gene Kelly. I
quite love "One From the heart," being a great fan of
Teri Garr to begin with. The songs are lovely,
especially "Old Boyfriends," which these days has a
special resonance for me.
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
24962
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:12am
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman wrote:
I find it persistently
> amazing how critics manage to turn a blind eye to the fact that films
> like _Shallow Hal_ or _Monster_ offer us the contemporary equivalent of
> blackface.
I haven't seen Monster, but I don't find Shallow Hal offensive, as I no doubt said
earlier when the subject came up. The argument that never showing Hal "with" the
real Gwyneth is offensive strikes me as overly-subtle in the context of a film that
tackles body-image issues head-on like this.
Matt, I've been reading a lot of feminist writing about serial killers for a project I'm
doing, and I would caution against this kind of "gotcha," which is common in the
literature, particularly the stuff dating from th 70s and 80s. "We never see serial
killers in movies praying on men -- except The Atlanta Child Murders -- but that's
because they're black." (Except for Cruising, natch -- one of the earliest of the
current wave. But of course that one's homophobic. And now the canon includes yet
more man on man serial killer sagas: Dahmer, Gacy. All presumably suspect, of
course...) "The men gathered outside the prison where Ted Bundy was executed
waving asigns saying 'Put another Ted on the barbie' were really expressing
admiration for Bundy, whopse divinity demanded a public execution as the sacrificial
conclusion of the serial killer mythos." Really?
I love subtle arguments, but it throws me when I'm reading a strong article, book or
post and suddenly see the writer skidding off the track because (s)he couldn't resist
hyperbole, or admit to having committed it.
24963
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:17am
Subject: Walters (Was: Easter Parade) sallitt1
> The example Dan just gave of the dance hall
> rehearsal from "Easter Parade" is not, to my eyes, an example of
> this, although it has wonderful interplay between Garland and
> Astaire. That scene IS very much about character development, as it
> crucially establishes the beginning of the troubled relationship
> Garland and Astaire will be having.
The other paragraph I wrote might come a little closer to what I was
trying to convey, though nothing in Walters' films is blatantly reflexive.
The way the characters deal with the mechanism of the story (four
characters in unrequited love with each other) has a kind of good-natured
automatism to it - I wouldn't call it mockery of the story, but more of a
sense that the audience and the actors all know the conventions.
Obviously there is some characterization in the rehearsal scenes, but how
much, really? The character concepts are established pretty quickly and
stay there. What's funny is that the mundane quality of Astaire's
conversation with the pianist makes as much noise as important dialogue
would, and that Garland's embarrassed chatter is turned up so that it
competes aurally with the other chat. It's almost vulgarity, but deadpan,
and sort of conceptual.
> But doesn't this "squeezing" of emotion contradict the idea that his
> films are often winking at the audience to not take them all that
> seriously?
That wasn't what I was trying to say. You can wink at the audience about
a level of convention in the movie, and still keep an option on
seriousness. In different ways, Hawks and Lubitsch let the audience in on
the fiction, and yet they can express a range of emotion.
> With Walters, it's more like Astaire
> feels a form of social pressure in relation to Miller since she is
> asking him to dance in front of a room full of applauding people.
Yeah, I agree - hypnosis, or that kind of immersion, doesn't seem typical
of Walters.
> I'm more interested in whether this quality is something one can isolate
> across Walters's body of work, with and without Garland, and then once
> we have done so (if we have done so) what the actual value of this
> approach to his material is.
The "wink" is pretty easy to do in a musical, so one has to be careful in
attributing attitudes to Walters that the genre seems to encourage anyway.
But I feel as if Walters' informality with the musical is at more of an
extreme. In GOOD NEWS, the show starts with little ado: a bunch of actors
in college clothes start walking across a campus and singing to us. I
recall a similar feeling to the beginning of DANGEROUS WHEN WET (which I
think is underrated), with Esther Williams' family just turning up and
starting a musical-ish kind of activity on their camping trip. Walters
isn't disposed to bringing out the drama in the musical, to creating slow
buildups, working with tension, or bringing out psychological depth.
That's not the same as saying that the films are shallow, though.
Don't know if this is helpful - it's work in progress, really. - Dan
24964
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:44am
Subject: Re: Walters (Was: Easter Parade) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
In GOOD NEWS, the show starts with little
> ado: a bunch of actors
> in college clothes start walking across a campus and
> singing to us.
Not quite. You're remembering the "Be a Ladies Man"
number a bit further on. "Good News" starts with a
whole group in front of a building on campus -- with
Joan McCracken checking out the men's butts. (No I'm
not making this up.) Walters' real skill shows in the
pivotal "The French Lesson" which segues into "The
Best Things in Life are Free." beautiful stuff.
Walters
> isn't disposed to bringing out the drama in the
> musical, to creating slow
> buildups, working with tension, or bringing out
> psychological depth.
> That's not the same as saying that the films are
> shallow, though.
>
I disagree. Seemy comments about "Good News" above.
Walters' touch may be light but he can be trenchant
all the same.
__________________________________
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24965
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) cinebklyn
Joe writes:
> What does this mean, "trying a lot harder to 'make'
a musical?"
Minnelli's musicals always strike me as laborious.
For all the crane work, there is a leaden feel to me --
as if the characters cannot escape all the set decoration
and costumes no matter how hard they try. I am
always left with the belief that Minnelli believes more
is better, that the road to beauty is paved with excess.
> Minnelli's frames aren't THAT cluttered.
One person's clutter is another's Zen garden.
> There's usually some kind of center or "truth"
or whatever you want to call it to the images.
I will look at for that next time I see one of his
films.
> The notion that Minnelli's films are only symptomatic
of post-war American consumerism is not borne out by
close attention to the films themselves.
I look at the end of "The Bad and The Beautiful" and
see three people who have acquired much from their
relationship with Jonathan Shields (despite what it cost
them) willing to work with him again in order to acquire
even more. I do not see Minnelli satirizing them or
their acquisitive desires. But that is how it strikes me.
> Jim Naremore writes about it in his book on Minnelli
I have seen it, but not gotten it. Worth getting?
> A film like "The Long, Long Trailer," for example, is clearly
ABOUT this mania for consumerism, a "terrifying satire on the
American way of life" as Jean Douchet described this film.
I guess I have never thought of Minnelli as a satirist. He has
always struck me as too lush an auteur to be a satirist. I never
feel that narcissists like Jonanthan Shields are being satirized,
but admired for their self-absorption. I think Kelley worked so
well with Minnelli since he enjoyed and responded to Kelley's
evident high degree of self-regard.
> It was Douchet (and Domarchi) who in the sixties wrote about
this impulse on the part of Minnelli's characters to surround
themselves with beautiful objects and to bring this world in
line with their desires.
But isn't that what narcissists do? Surround themselves with
beautiful objects/people that reflect their own beauty/worth?
> But what the films repeatedly dramatize is the failure of this dream
to fully realize itself, hence the recurring motif of the destruction of
decor.
I will also look at the films with this in mind. But the question is:
does the dream fail the dreamer or does the dreamer fail the dream?
Where does Minnelli, for you, locate the source of the failure?
What is the critique (if any) that he is making of people and/or
society? That is what has never been clear to me.
Brian
24966
From: "Robert Keser"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:12am
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) rfkeser
Mathieu Ricordi wrote:
The Powell films alone are hard
> to get outside of the ones released on Criterion DVD, the one you
> mentioned is surely of interest to me (anything along the lines
> of "Peeping Tom" is). Of course any info you could give me yourself
Mathieu,
You should check out Steve Crook's *extremely* informative Powell
and Pressburger site (at http://www.powell-pressburger.org/), which
keeps in touch with Thelma Schoonmaker, Jack Cardiff, and other
veterans of the PnP productions. If you join the (delightful) group,
you can ask to be included for an occasional "Care package" of PnP
rarities (which is how I first saw "Oh, Rosalinda!!" and "Gone to
Earth"). They can tell you everything about festival showings of PnP
films and about different DVD versions available in all regions.
--Robert Keser
24967
From: Fred Camper
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:34am
Subject: Re: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) fredcamper
Brian Charles Dauth wrote:
> ...I guess I have never thought of Minnelli as a satirist. He has
> always struck me as too lush an auteur to be a satirist. I never
> feel that narcissists like Jonanthan Shields are being satirized,
> but admired for their self-absorption. ...
In most of his greatest films, Minnelli neither unthinkingly admires nor
satirizes his central characters. These are not the only two choices! By
the end of "Some Came Running," virtually every character except for
Ginny is critiqued for their self-absorbtion. That's the meaning of the
funeral -- and of Bama's removal of his hat. And this behavior is a
response to the film's imagery, to everything from the honky-tonk colors
of the cafe to the stultifying symmetry of Gwen's bedroom. A similarly
complex range of characters and attitudes is displayed in "Home From the
Hill."
I second Joe McE's comment, and apply it to most of the films, that
Minnelli's films are *about* consumerism, rather than merely a symptom
of it.
Fred Camper
24968
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:59am
Subject: Re: Saless (Was: 25 Directors) blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > The Saless films that made the greatest impact on me (mostly
during the
> > 70s) were Still Life, Far from Home and Diary of a Lover. I only
> > recently discovered that Saless had died in 1998-he is so little
> > discussed and written about I suspect because his work is hard
to find
> > with even the boutique DVD outfits seemingly uninterested. I can
> > remember when his work evoked Bresson comparisons (here in
Sydney at
> > least).
>
> I wonder if Sydney is ahead of the rest of the world here. Does
anyone
> remember whether Saless's films were shown in New York or Paris
during the
> 70s? I wasn't aware of him until 1981 (when UTOPIA played Filmex
in LA).
> - Dan
UTOPIA is still the only one I've seen, at the same Filmex press
screening as Dan in 1981. I only saw it once and have never
forgotten it--would love to see it again and anything else he's
done. That one was just memorable, among other things it meditated
on time and space and their impression on our existence in a very
individual way, as other great films have done in their way. It
also seemed to stare into the souls of its characters, not
psychologically, but in a way abstractly. I'm trying to summon it
back and maybe not doing that well. A haunting movie, though.
Posts about Saless as referenced above suggest a problem of cinema
to me. Vagaries of distribution aside, and these can be pretty
serious, if something worthwhile does come along, it is kind of easy
to miss it or skip if it gets no critical attention, nothing to make
it sound interesting. And I don't remember that UTOPIA sounded that
interesting--it sounded long and at first seemed like it would feel
that way too. A long film with this subject sounded like it might
be excruciating. You just can't know until you see it. Of course
those who try hard to see as much as they can, as I know Dan still
does, have the advantage over me here I know.
Anyway, one more vote for a Saless retrospective...
Blake
24969
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:21am
Subject: Re: Gordon Douglas (Was: Douglas, Walters) blakelucaslu...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
>
> I've seen RIO CONCHOS, wasn't quite as wild about it as you and
> Jean-Pierre, though it does looks very nice.
>
> Do you two like KISS TOMORROW GOODBYE? I recall being startled at
how
> good it was. - Dan
I liked KISS TOMORROW GOODBYE--saw it several times but both times
were a long time ago. After resisting going back to gangster films
for a number of years, Cagney relented for WHITE HEAT (Raoul Walsh)
and then made this soon afterward. And this was nicely harsh too as
I recall but for me in the shadow of WHITE HEAT, one of my favorite
movies. I know someone else mentioned it in a related post before
me.
I won't launch into an elaborate defense of RIO CONCHOS here except
for a few points. You say it "looks very nice"--that means, I hope,
that you saw a good color print in 'Scope. Did you see it on the
big screen?--I think that would make a difference with this one and
probably did for both me and Jean-Pierre initially. But as
magisterial as I find it visually--in staging, color and composition
which we probably agree are among Douglas' gifts--it has other
virtues as well. The Italian Western and related American Westerns
with some usually tension-ridden group on some task (almost always
over the border) was coming into full swing at this point, and very
soon the characters would basically all be completely mercenary.
That's not true here--they have different motives. Revenge for one,
protecting America for another, and the one purely mercenary
character enlisted, the bandit (Tony Franciosa) is ultimately a
villain for this reason, though a likeable one. The hatred between
the revenge-bent "hero" (Richard Boone) and his Indian antagonist
(Rodolfo Acosta) is compellingly played out--seen as mutually self-
destuctive and that's all. In short, rather than being facetious,
like so many of the movies to come, it's serious. But it isn't
soft, it's nicely hard-bitten.
Douglas' Westerns are an uneven bunch, but there are some other good
ones, especially his Jim Bowie movie THE IRON MISTRESS which I saw
again very recently--it's striking visually and a pretty interesting
character study with some dark elements. As I said before,
YELLOWSTONE KELLY and FORT DOBBS are pretty good too (both written by
Burt Kennedy). Some of the others are very disappointing, despite
his flair for action as shown in CHARGE AT FEATHER RIVER.
Some nice things have been written about Douglas since he first came
up--all of which I felt sympathy with (there was one that took up
quite a few of his films I hope everyone read). Earlier, Dan
alluded to the problem of someone like this, then later said when he
seems unengaged he "lays down" (nice phrase, Dan, which does seem to
evoke it, and I believe I've seen Don Siegel do the same thing with
some of his movies). The problem is of course in auteur theory.
Douglas is plainly talented. You wish maybe that he would walk onto
the set seeing himself as an artist and act that way, become more
purposeful about his work. And yet, when some Hollywood directors
have been encouraged to do this, it has had a bad effect on them.
So I don't know what the answer is.
24970
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Easter Parade joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
> wrote:
>
> > I disagree with everything you're saying here. The notion that
> > Minnelli's films are only symptomatic of post-war American
> > consumerism is not borne out by close attention to the films
> > themselves. The relationship between Minnelli's films and
consumerism
> > and modernity is a complex one. Jim Naremore writes about it in his
> > book on Minnelli and I also touch on it in the Minnelli chapter of
my
> > book -- which I just sent off to my publisher this morning.
>
> Joe, what is your book? Given your eloquence and insight on
Minnelli,
> I'd certainly look forward to any book by you.
Thanks so much for your interest, Damien. The book is just going into
production now and given the way academic publishers work it probably
won't be in stores until early 2006. It's called "Film on the Edge of
Catastrophe: Hitchcock, Lang, Minnelli." The Minnelli chapter is
primarily on "Two Weeks in Another Town."
24971
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Walters (Was: Easter Parade) joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>>
> The other paragraph I wrote might come a little closer to what I
was
> trying to convey, though nothing in Walters' films is blatantly
reflexive.
> The way the characters deal with the mechanism of the story (four
> characters in unrequited love with each other) has a kind of good-
natured
> automatism to it - I wouldn't call it mockery of the story, but
more of a
> sense that the audience and the actors all know the conventions.
>
> Obviously there is some characterization in the rehearsal scenes,
but how
> much, really? The character concepts are established pretty
quickly and
> stay there. What's funny is that the mundane quality of Astaire's
> conversation with the pianist makes as much noise as important
dialogue
> would, and that Garland's embarrassed chatter is turned up so that
it
> competes aurally with the other chat. It's almost vulgarity, but
deadpan,
> and sort of conceptual.
>
> > But doesn't this "squeezing" of emotion contradict the idea that
his
> > films are often winking at the audience to not take them all that
> > seriously?
>
> That wasn't what I was trying to say. You can wink at the audience
about
> a level of convention in the movie, and still keep an option on
> seriousness. In different ways, Hawks and Lubitsch let the
audience in on
> the fiction, and yet they can express a range of emotion.
>
> > With Walters, it's more like Astaire
> > feels a form of social pressure in relation to Miller since she is
> > asking him to dance in front of a room full of applauding people.
>
> Yeah, I agree - hypnosis, or that kind of immersion, doesn't seem
typical
> of Walters.
>
> > I'm more interested in whether this quality is something one can
isolate
> > across Walters's body of work, with and without Garland, and then
once
> > we have done so (if we have done so) what the actual value of
this
> > approach to his material is.
>
> The "wink" is pretty easy to do in a musical, so one has to be
careful in
> attributing attitudes to Walters that the genre seems to encourage
anyway.
> But I feel as if Walters' informality with the musical is at more
of an
> extreme. In GOOD NEWS, the show starts with little ado: a bunch of
actors
> in college clothes start walking across a campus and singing to
us. I
> recall a similar feeling to the beginning of DANGEROUS WHEN WET
(which I
> think is underrated), with Esther Williams' family just turning up
and
> starting a musical-ish kind of activity on their camping trip.
Walters
> isn't disposed to bringing out the drama in the musical, to
creating slow
> buildups, working with tension, or bringing out psychological
depth.
> That's not the same as saying that the films are shallow, though.
>
> Don't know if this is helpful - it's work in progress, really. - Dan
Thanks, Dan. This makes things a little clearer. You know, you or
David should write some kind of introductory essay on Walters, laying
some foundations for writing further about his films. Maybe
something for the director database at Senses of Cinema?
24972
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Joe writes:
>
>>
> > The notion that Minnelli's films are only symptomatic
> of post-war American consumerism is not borne out by
> close attention to the films themselves.
>
> I look at the end of "The Bad and The Beautiful" and
> see three people who have acquired much from their
> relationship with Jonathan Shields (despite what it cost
> them) willing to work with him again in order to acquire
> even more. I do not see Minnelli satirizing them or
> their acquisitive desires. But that is how it strikes me.
I think that this is a magnificent final shot, not just in terms of
how it looks but how it captures so much of what the film is about.
And there is nothing satirical about it. The shot concisely captures
the basic drives of the characters: Their simultaneous attraction
for and hatred of Jonathan Shields, a man who created but also
betrayed and, in different ways, destroyed them. It's a shot in which
meaning is slightly suspended, giving us neither a happy nor a sad
ending, an ending which neither precisely confirms that the three of
them will return to working with Jonathan nor denies it either. If
they accept the film, what will they go back to? Will the cycle of
euphoria and misery repeat itself all over again? You find this
ambivalence throughout Minnelli's work
>
> > Jim Naremore writes about it in his book on Minnelli
>
> I have seen it, but not gotten it. Worth getting?
Yes. And he writes well about the last shot of "The Bad and the
Beautiful."
> > A film like "The Long, Long Trailer," for example, is clearly
> ABOUT this mania for consumerism, a "terrifying satire on the
> American way of life" as Jean Douchet described this film.
>
> I guess I have never thought of Minnelli as a satirist. He has
> always struck me as too lush an auteur to be a satirist. I never
> feel that narcissists like Jonanthan Shields are being satirized,
> but admired for their self-absorption. I think Kelley worked so
> well with Minnelli since he enjoyed and responded to Kelley's
> evident high degree of self-regard.
>
> > It was Douchet (and Domarchi) who in the sixties wrote about
> this impulse on the part of Minnelli's characters to surround
> themselves with beautiful objects and to bring this world in
> line with their desires.
>
> But isn't that what narcissists do? Surround themselves with
> beautiful objects/people that reflect their own beauty/worth?
Of course. Many of Minnelli's protagonists are narcissists. This
isn't necessarily a negative, though.
>
> > But what the films repeatedly dramatize is the failure of this
dream
> to fully realize itself, hence the recurring motif of the
destruction of
> decor.
>
> I will also look at the films with this in mind. But the question
is:
> does the dream fail the dreamer or does the dreamer fail the dream?
> Where does Minnelli, for you, locate the source of the failure?
> What is the critique (if any) that he is making of people and/or
> society? That is what has never been clear to me.
I would suggest you do some reading. Naremore's book is one good
place to start. There's also Thomas Elseasser's essay in Rick
Altman's anthology "Genre: The Musical," Fred has written about
Minnelli and you can find the link on his website. Douchet is
absolutely fundamental and if you can read French some of his
writings on Minnelli have been collected in a book called "L'Art
d'Aimer." There's an interesting interview with him in the book
conducted by Daney and Narboni. There he maintains that of the
Cahiers group only he and Domarchi truly loved Minnelli. More
conventiently (and you don't even have to leave your computer
screen), you can also read the Minnelli piece I did for Senses of
Cinema which deals with some of these issues which you find so
problematic: the narcissism of the characters, the lush visual style,
etc.:
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/04/minnelli.html
24973
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Easter Parade cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
The
> Minnelli chapter is
> primarily on "Two Weeks in Another Town."
>
>
>
Well thn I, for one, am really looking forward to it
as "Two Weeks in Another Town" is not only one of my
favorite Minnellis but back in 1962 was rather crucial
in terms of my growing interest in directors. Certain
films are door-openers for cirtical sensibilities and
in my case the big three were "Contempt," "The
Servant," and "Two Weeks in Another Town." These were
films I saw over and over again to examine cutting,
framing, camera movement, and the pitch of
performances.
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24974
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Walters (Was: Easter Parade) cellar47
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
>
> Thanks, Dan. This makes things a little clearer.
> You know, you or
> David should write some kind of introductory essay
> on Walters, laying
> some foundations for writing further about his
> films. Maybe
> something for the director database at Senses of
> Cinema?
>
>
Maybe. Needless tosay all this Walters talk has really
got me thinking about his work in new ways.I expect
I'll be writing something "major" down the line.
>
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24975
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:09pm
Subject: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) cinebklyn
Joe writes:
> It's a shot in which meaning is slightly suspended,
giving us neither a happy nor a sad ending, an ending
which neither precisely confirms that the three of
them will return to working with Jonathan nor denies it
either.
That reading works too, but it is not the way it strikes
me. For me, you have the imperial het male being
listened too again, even though he has wreaked such
havoc. It is amazing how Bush II reminds me of
Jonathan Shields. Son of a successful father who is
ruthless and destructive in proving he can be
successful in the world too.
> You find this ambivalence throughout Minnelli's work
Got it. Guess ambivalence toward the imperial American
male is not my glass of tea.
> Of course. Many of Minnelli's protagonists are narcissists.
This isn't necessarily a negative, though.
I found your piece last night and it was very good. Where we
part company is in viewing narcissism as not always negative.
For me, narcissism is a withdrawl into private concerns and a
rejection of social responsibility. Viewing narcissism as you do,
your reading of Minnelli works beautifully.
For me Minnelli symbolizes in part of the change from art being
an act of communication to one of personal expression. As
I said before, I think he works so well with actors like Kelley and
Douglas because of their high self-regard, that sense that they
are right because, well . . . they are right. Amiable tyrants to be
indulged since they accomplish so much, and what does a little
broken decor matter. We will all gather 'round the phone and
listen to the spiel once more cause, gosh, we're American and
that's the American way.
I am understanding your argument that Minnelli is ambivalent:
he admires the drive and charisma of Jonathan Shields, but
also recognizes the destructiveness as well. My barrier is that
I do not share Minnelli's fascination with characters like Shields.
For me, they exert no charm at all.
Brian
24976
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> That reading works too, but it is not the way it
> strikes
> me. For me, you have the imperial het male being
> listened too again, even though he has wreaked such
> havoc.
I've got to research this a bit more but it's my
understanding that as originally concieved by Schnee,
Sields wasn't supposed to be as het as all that.
obviously it couldn't be done in the 50's but Elaine
Stewart's cynical tootsie makes far more sense as a
male hustler.
But frankly I'm glad it was Eliane Stewart after all.
She's my favorite movie tough guy.
"Saw the picture, Georgia. You were swell."
It is amazing how Bush II reminds me of
> Jonathan Shields. Son of a successful father who is
> ruthless and destructive in proving he can be
> successful in the world too.
>
Oh If Only C-Plus Augustus were a tenth as charismatic
as Kirk Douglas!
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24977
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Saless (Was: 25 Directors) sallitt1
> Posts about Saless as referenced above suggest a problem of cinema
> to me. Vagaries of distribution aside, and these can be pretty
> serious, if something worthwhile does come along, it is kind of easy
> to miss it or skip if it gets no critical attention, nothing to make
> it sound interesting.
Blake - there was a fairly detailed career overview by Olaf Moller in
the Jul-Aug 2004 of Film Comment. Wish I could figure out where people
are seeing Saless's films.... - Dan
24978
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Gordon Douglas (Was: Douglas, Walters) sallitt1
> I won't launch into an elaborate defense of RIO CONCHOS here except
> for a few points. You say it "looks very nice"--that means, I hope,
> that you saw a good color print in 'Scope. Did you see it on the
> big screen?--I think that would make a difference with this one and
> probably did for both me and Jean-Pierre initially.
I saw it on TV, but it was indeed a good color print in 'Scope, courtesy
of (I think) Turner Classic Movies. Ah, the old days are gone forever....
- Dan
24979
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:57pm
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) peckinpah200...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> film".
> >
>
> Yes indeed. Coppola was hoping that it would
> jump-start his entire project of creating a movie
> studio for personal films. Powell was actually on
> staff there as an "advisor" -- as was Gene Kelly. I
> quite love "One From the heart," being a great fan of
> Teri Garr to begin with. The songs are lovely,
> especially "Old Boyfriends," which these days has a
> special resonance for me.
I also interviewed Michael Powell at Zoetrope in 1981. After the
initial hesitation mostly caused by the British reaction to PEEPING
TOM, he proved to be a real gentleman in answering my questions and
then taking me on a guided tour of the studio. He was greatly
admired and respected there rather than occupying the demeaning
position described by Ken Russell in one of his autobiographies.
However, others were also present in Zoetrope. We passed a room
with a familiar looking figure whom Powell greeted, "Hello, Jean-
Luc." Yes, it was the man himself, Godard, who was also working
there as a creative consultant. We then watched one of the regular
afternoon screenings with Zoetrope employees. It was David Lynch's
ERASERHEAD. After the film finished, the room was in silence until
Michael Powell made the humorous comment, "Well, I suppose if you
have the have these fantasies, it's just as well you get rid of them
in film." Spoken in his English gentleman accent, it brought the
entire house down.
Powell escorted me to the gate of the studio speaking of his
admiration for D.W. Griffith and Walt Disney. It was a remarkable
day made all the more memorable for my encounter with a man who
really loved film. I'm sure if Zoetrope had survived we would have
had another Michael Powell movie directed in the Hollywood he so
obviously admired.
Tony Williams
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
24980
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:21pm
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000" <
peckinpah20012000@y...> wrote:
>
Tony,
Thanks for the reminiscence of Zoetrope. I remember how the national press ganged
up on Coppola at that time - with Richard Jameson's unauthorized review of a
roughcut test screening of One from the Heart in Film Comment leading the pack. It
was an ugly feeding frenzy, and anyone who loves film who actually visited that lot
knows who the bad guys were.
24981
From: MG4273@...
Date: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18pm
Subject: Re: Minnelli's Vision (Was: Easter Parade) nzkpzq
I have a deep love of Minnelli, too.
Minnelli is part of a group of filmmakers all of whom have a really complex
visual style: Sternberg, Ophuls, Mizoguchi, Tourneur, Harrington, Paradjanov,
etc. These are some of the core filmmakers in film history, IMHO. A name for
them: Pictorialists. Andrew Sarris used "pictorialism" in The American Cinema to
describe Sternberg (and Rex Ingram, whose "Scaramouche" is very good),
although not necessarily to describe this precise group of the Heirs of Sternberg.
A modern filmmaker in the same tradition, and not that far from Minnelli: the
great Tran Anh Hung.
There is a lengthy essay on Minnelli on my web site at:
http://members.aol.com/MG4273/minn.htm
By the way, have always found "The Bad and the Beautiful" to be one of
Minnelli's lesser films. Its visual style seems much less elaborate than many other
Minnelli movies. And am puzzled by the film's glorification of its movie
producer protagonist, like others on this thread. Hope TBATB is not taken as a
definitive Minnelli film statement. So many other films are so much better.
Minnelli is usually fairly sympathetic to his characters. He reserves his
scorn for the way society mistreats outsiders, such as creative artists on the
one hand, and gays and the trans-gendred on the other. There is also one of the
few denunciations of child labor in film, in "Lust for Life".
Minnelli has many strategies for creating visual beauty. One of them is
indeed the "lavishly decorated interior of the wealthy". Minnelli seems not to view
such settings deeply positively or neagtively, as social commentary. Instead,
they mainly seem to be another Minnelli method of creating dazzling form and
color on the screen - he has around 20 methods, or maybe 100!
Mike Grost
24982
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 0:18am
Subject: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) peckinpah200...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000" <
> peckinpah20012000@y...> wrote:
> >
> Tony,
>
> Thanks for the reminiscence of Zoetrope. anyone who loves film who
actually visited that lot...> knows who the bad guys were.
Bill,
You're very welcome. I wanted to share my memories of Zoetrope and
Powell with the group since it is the latter's Centenary year. At the
time, I was a visitor to the U.S.A. and did not follow up on the
information you mention.
But, from my perspective, a creative and optimistic atmosphere
existed on the studio. I met Vittorio Storaro again when he was
shooting some scenes for ONE FROM THE HEART. (I previously spoke to
him in Manchester England when he was shooting REDS one evening.).
Powell asked me who else I would like to meet so I said Coppola since
I admired APOCALYPSE NOW. The man himself was enclosed within a
darkened trailer surrounded by video monitors so my encounter very
much resembled Willard's meeting with Kurtz in the theatrical version
of the film. Like Storaro, he was tired and engrossed in his work so I
limited my conversation with him to some ten minutes.
I've always distrusted Jameson and my feelings are reinforced by what
you have mentioned. It was a stimulating environment in Zoetrope and I
think that Coppola wanted to help international directors as well as
their Hollywood counterparts.
Tony Williams
24983
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:07am
Subject: Re: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) mathieu_ricordi
Quoting Robert Keser :
> Mathieu,
>
>
>
> You should check out Steve Crook's *extremely* informative Powell
>
> and Pressburger site (at http://www.powell-pressburger.org/), which
>
> keeps in touch with Thelma Schoonmaker, Jack Cardiff, and other
>
> veterans of the PnP productions. If you join the (delightful) group,
>
> you can ask to be included for an occasional "Care package" of PnP
>
> rarities (which is how I first saw "Oh, Rosalinda!!" and "Gone to
>
> Earth"). They can tell you everything about festival showings of PnP
>
> films and about different DVD versions available in all regions.
>
>
Thanks for the info Robert, I'll be sure to follow up on that.
Mathieu Ricordi
24984
From: Mathieu Ricordi
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:31am
Subject: Re: Re: Michael Powell (Was: 25 Directors) mathieu_ricordi
Quoting peckinpah20012000 :
> > peckinpah20012000@y...> wrote:
>
> You're very welcome. I wanted to share my memories of Zoetrope and
>
> Powell with the group since it is the latter's Centenary year. At the
>
> time, I was a visitor to the U.S.A. and did not follow up on the
>
> information you mention.
>
>
>
> But, from my perspective, a creative and optimistic atmosphere
>
> existed on the studio. I met Vittorio Storaro again when he was
>
> shooting some scenes for ONE FROM THE HEART. (I previously spoke to
>
> him in Manchester England when he was shooting REDS one evening.).
>
> Powell asked me who else I would like to meet so I said Coppola since
>
> I admired APOCALYPSE NOW. The man himself was enclosed within a
>
> darkened trailer surrounded by video monitors so my encounter very
>
> much resembled Willard's meeting with Kurtz in the theatrical version
>
> of the film. Like Storaro, he was tired and engrossed in his work so I
>
> limited my conversation with him to some ten minutes.
>
>
>
> I've always distrusted Jameson and my feelings are reinforced by what
>
> you have mentioned. It was a stimulating environment in Zoetrope and I
>
> think that Coppola wanted to help international directors as well as
>
> their Hollywood counterparts.
>
> Tony Williams
I also want to jump in and say it's been a pleasure reading up
on some glimpses of this studio and its promises (that infortunately never
materialized the way we all would have hoped). For my part, I can
only experience such stories through books and documentaries, and being
too young, was not around when they were taking place; however, I feel
the frustration of their non-fruition as if i was living it in the present.
Coppola is a man whose films I admire greatly, as well as their maker.
His post Godfather ventures represent the kind of risk and unpredictable
force that critics all too often mistake for losing ones way or slipping
in talent. His utopic vision for Zoetrope was to be admired, and
anybody who is snide towards it should give their heads a shake.
Mathieu Ricordi
24985
From: "Andy Rector"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:41am
Subject: Francis Copious kinoslang
Now that all of Coppola's children are grown up and any "financial"
risks will not collaterally damage them, why hasn't he reinstituted
his towel of babel?
24986
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:51am
Subject: 25 Directors blakelucaslu...
John Ford
Nicholas Ray
Vincente Minnelli
Max Ophuls
Jean Renoir
D. W. Griffith
Mikio Naruse
Raoul Walsh
Jacques Tourneur
Carl Dreyer
Howard Hawks
Jean-Luc Godard
Roberto Rosselini
Kenji Mizoguchi
Anthony Mann
Douglas Sirk
Buster Keaton
Jacques Demy
Henry King
Luis Bunuel
Alfred Hitchcock
Alain Resnais
Ida Lupino
Jerry Lewis
R. W. Fassbinder
I initially resisted this but thought about it anyway. Every night
as I went to sleep I'd count the directors I'd intend and it always
turned out there were more than 25 but since there are going to be
more than a few great directors left off anyway, I finally stuck to
that number and will just have to make peace with some favorites who
are just not on it. In any event, I sent the top 12 to Fred and
Peter when I became a member and intended to share that at some
point anyway. More of the others than not probably would have made
any list, but I created some space for a few I especially want to
champion right now for various reasons, and who have been very
meaningful to me lately. Plainly, I'm most comfortable with cinema
I've been living with for a long time, so Fassbinder is my nod in
the direction of the sense I had in the 1970s, which he continues to
most inspire, that the post-classical cinema could be as good as all
of that which went before. And there are always films and
filmmakers that still make me feel this is true.
Blake Lucas
24987
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:33am
Subject: Re: 25 Directors jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> as I went to sleep I'd count the directors I'd intend and it always
> turned out there were more than 25
Counting directors before going to sleep sounds so sweet.
"When I'm awake and I can't sleep
I count directors instead of sheep..."
(David will know that one I'm sure)
And, Blake, what a perfect canonical list...
JPC
24988
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:02am
Subject: A new trend for film henrik_sylow
I recently got a reviewcopy of the Danish DVD of the Danish classic
"Ditte menneskebarn", and hardly had I pressed play, before my jaws
dropped to the ground.
The film was made in 1946 and has the correct AR of 1.33:1, yet the
DVD reproduced the film in 1.78:1 and in 16x9. This must be a mistake
I thought, but after having talked to Nordisk Film, it wasn't. It was
a "corperate decision" to crop the frame by 37%.
The reason was, that a growing number of television stations around
the world demand that films are 16x9 friendly, that is are 1.78:1, if
they are to buy them. A correct fact, as for instance RTL only shows
films in 16x9 or full frame; During the easter they showed both "Lord
of the Rings" and "Training Day", both OAR of 2.35:1, in scanned 1.78:1.
The tendency has also been seen on a few DVD releases, as for instance
"Once upon a Time in Mexico" and "Barbarian Invasion" both were 2.35:1
at the cinema, but were "redone" to 1.78:1 on DVD.
Thus, we are entering a new age where tv is dictating "pan/scan"
versions, where Blockbuster and major chains like Wal-Mart are
demanding "pan/scan" versions, and where the general DVD and cinema
audience is demanding OAR. And depending on the financial capacity,
the production will suffice only what is within their budget. Where
major companies as American studios have the capacity to make several
versions of a film, small European companies will meet the demands of
those who pay the most.
I believe we only have seen the tip of the iceberg at the moment.
Henrik
24989
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:29am
Subject: Re: 25 Directors damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
>
> Counting directors before going to sleep sounds so sweet.
>
> "When I'm awake and I can't sleep
> I count directors instead of sheep..."
>
>
> (David will know that one I'm sure)
And, Oscar nominee as it was, it -- like The Director That Got Away --
lost to Three Directors In The Fountain (one of whom, presumably, was
Fellini)
24990
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:23am
Subject: Re: Francis Copious hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Rector" wrote:
>
> Now that all of Coppola's children are grown up and any "financial"
> risks will not collaterally damage them, why hasn't he reinstituted
> his towel of babel?
Poor credit rating.
24991
From: "Saul"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 0:35pm
Subject: directors left out asitdid
Online Now Send IM
Where does Just Jaeckin stand in our recent ratings of directors? Does
he get a mention? What about Fulci?
By the way, JP, I remember you showed some disdain at my earlier
mention of Lina Wertmüller. Any reason??? I remember some very
powerful scenes from "Seven Beauties", particularly where Giancarlo
Giannini was debasing himself for the sadistic female guard in order
to ingratiate himself and, of course, the scene where he has to shoot
his friend at the end and the friend says, "better you than someone
else". Also, you so often pine for pictures of Kate Manx, but where do
you place Sylvia Kristel?
24992
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:39pm
Subject: Re: 25 Directors jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Counting directors before going to sleep sounds so sweet.
> >
> > "When I'm awake and I can't sleep
> > I count directors instead of sheep..."
> >
> >
> > (David will know that one I'm sure)
>
> And, Oscar nominee as it was, it -- like The Director That Got
Away --
> lost to Three Directors In The Fountain (one of whom, presumably,
was
> Fellini)
"Which one will the fountain bless?"
24993
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:55pm
Subject: Re: directors left out jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>
> Where does Just Jaeckin stand in our recent ratings of directors?
Does
> he get a mention? What about Fulci?
>
> By the way, JP, I remember you showed some disdain at my earlier
> mention of Lina Wertmüller. Any reason??? I remember some very
> powerful scenes from "Seven Beauties", particularly where Giancarlo
> Giannini was debasing himself for the sadistic female guard in order
> to ingratiate himself and, of course, the scene where he has to shoot
> his friend at the end and the friend says, "better you than someone
> else". Also, you so often pine for pictures of Kate Manx, but where
do
> you place Sylvia Kristel?
I intensely disliked every Wertmuller film I have seen. I think she
was immensely overrated in the US for "Seven beauties" and "Swept
Away". Her subsequent films were not realy worse. Just as awful.
However I haven't watched any of her stuff in 25 years at least, so I
may be prejudiced.
Can't remember how Sylvia Kristel looks. I'll stay faithful to Kate.
RE: Jaeckin: Surely you jest! Fulci: haven't seen any of his films.
By the way, Saul, I just realized that I have my "Quills" article in
my computer. I'll just e-mail it to you.
JPC
24994
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: 25 Directors cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> Counting directors before going to sleep sounds
> so sweet.
>
> "When I'm awake and I can't sleep
> I count directors instead of sheep..."
>
>
> (David will know that one I'm sure)
>
You mean --
"When i'm worried and I can't sleep
I count directors instead of sheep
And I fallasleep
Counting directors.. . "
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
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24995
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:28pm
Subject: Re: Feminism? bufordrat
jpcoursodon wrote:
> However, before deciding whether I am a feminist or not, I would
>need a clear definition of what you and the other defenders of
>feminism who were shocked by my post consider 'feminism" to be.
>
>
Did I sound shocked? I really didn't mean to.
I think part of the beauty of feminism lies in the number of conflicting
ideas as to what it's supposed to be about. Trying to get ten feminists
to agree on a definition of feminism is kind of like trying to get ten
surrealists to agree on a definition of surrealism.
With said proviso in view, I'll propose the following naive definition,
with which I'm sure most feminists would disagree: a critical movement
with an interest in resisting the idea that gender has an ontological,
rather than cultural basis. Historically this has a good deal to do
with the study of femininity, or the set of language games people
acquire competence in for the purpose of defining themselves as
"girls." While such notions as femininity are thought usually to be
ideologically opressive, there also seems to be an interest in studying
"alternative" engagements with femininity which, through a certain kind
of misreading, open up possibilities for it as a liberating force.
I suppose I'll stop there for now.
-Matt
24996
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals bufordrat
hotlove666 wrote:
>I haven't seen Monster, but I don't find Shallow Hal offensive, as I no doubt said
>earlier when the subject came up. The argument that never showing Hal "with" the
>real Gwyneth is offensive strikes me as overly-subtle in the context of a film that
>tackles body-image issues head-on like this.
>
>
It's hard for me to see what you're saying here; do you mean "subtle" as
in abstruse, overcomplicated, etc?
I can't say for sure because I haven't read them, but there doesn't seem
to be much of a parallel at all between the serial killer articles you
describe and Kevin's post; it sounds as though they're working under
questionable assumptions regarding the ideological import of violence
against women in fiction film. Obviously there shouldn't be anything
wrong, per se, with films in which only women are killed.
I'm uncertain as to whether your disagreement ends at finding _Shallow
Hal_ more critical of the "fat woman" trope than I'm giving it credit
for, or whether it runs deeper. Surely you agree that this is an issue
of considerable importance?
-Matt
24997
From: "Saul"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:30pm
Subject: Re: directors left out asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
> I intensely disliked every Wertmuller film I have seen. I think she
> was immensely overrated in the US for "Seven beauties" and "Swept
> Away". Her subsequent films were not realy worse. Just as awful.
> However I haven't watched any of her stuff in 25 years at least, so I
> may be prejudiced.
Well, I saw "Seven Beauties" very late one night, with no knowledge of
the reaction it got when released, whether it was loved or hated, (and
admittedly praise heaped one a decent film can, in the right context,
sour a reaction to it), and it hit all the right emotional buttons.
What do you think of Liliana Cavani? I ask now, because every time I
think of "Seven Beauties" I always, for some reason, think of "Il
Portiere di notte". I though "Ripley's Game" was interesting though
Wenders and Ganz (before his downfall ... *groan* ... aren't I
witty...) did it better. "There is nothing to fear but fear itself." I
liked the scene in the train where Malkovich keeps killing people and
stuffing them into a small bathroom, a scene that was, perhaps
untintentionally(?), quite funny as it recalled a similar Marx
brothers prank on a ship (in what film I can't recall now) where they
kept piling more and more people into this small room.
> Can't remember how Sylvia Kristel looks. I'll stay faithful to Kate.
I'm going to try and see if I can find where all the KM pic's went...
> RE: Jaeckin: Surely you jest!
Hahahah....I guess...not sure...I just have Sylvia Kristel on the
brain and was looking over some of the French erotic films of the 70's
in preperation for a review of the dvd of "Secrets of a French Maid" I
was sent, though I don't think that's a French movie. Not sure. I
think it's in German....hmm.... Can anyone here reccomend some good
Erotic (not porn!) films of the 70's, early 80's period??
> Fulci: haven't seen any of his films.
I just finished "City of the Living Dead" which got a dvd release
here, restoring the scenes cut from the vhs release, and restoring the
original ratio. Oh well, you miss (though I'm sure you don't mind
missing this) a zombie priest causing a woman to puke out her guts and
bleed from the eyeballs, and a scene where a man has a 12" drill bit
inserted into his head and out the other side. Fulci always had a
flair for gore, and I guess like many Italian directors has a feel
for, in particular, the way he FRAMES a shot.
>
> By the way, Saul, I just realized that I have my "Quills" article in
> my computer. I'll just e-mail it to you.
>
> JPC
24998
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:23pm
Subject: Erotic, not porn (Was: directors left out) sallitt1
> Hahahah....I guess...not sure...I just have Sylvia Kristel on the
> brain and was looking over some of the French erotic films of the 70's
I've had Laura Antonelli on the brain lately, for some reason.
Back in 1977 I passed up an opportunity to see Chabrol's ALICE OU LA
DERNIERE FUGUE, with Kristel, and it has never come around again.
> Can anyone here reccomend some good
> Erotic (not porn!) films of the 70's, early 80's period??
It's a fine line, isn't it? There was an interesting director named
Salvatore Samperi who used to work on the line between art film and
erotica. His best known film here was MALIZIA, with the aforementioned
Laura Antonelli. But everything he did had an interesting perverse
quality, and was at least somewhat character-driven.
There was another Italian named Pasquali Festa Campanile who at least
dabbled in light sex films (he made THE SEX MACHINE) and who struck me as
a pretty good director. - Dan
24999
From: Craig Keller
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Francis Copious evillights
On Wednesday, March 30, 2005, at 06:23 AM, hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Poor credit rating.
What's the latest on his attempts to finance 'Megalopolis'? I take it
he hasn't gotten very far?
craig.
25000
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman
wrote:
> It's hard for me to see what you're saying here; do you
mean "subtle" as
> in abstruse, overcomplicated, etc?
Yes - but I need to look back at Kevin's post. I may be attributing
the wrong argument to him.
>
Obviously there shouldn't be anything
> wrong, per se, with films in which only women are killed.
Yes there is something wrong with that. Those were arguments used by
Jane Caputi in The Age of Sex Crime, a groundbreaking feminist book
about serial killers in life and in cultural representations. The
truth of her thesis - that this type of violence is directed mostly
at women, and that this is even more he case in movies than in life -
is so blindingly obvious that she shouldn't have to discount the rare
movie that deals with boys being killed (the second-favorite victim
of male serial killers in real life) because they were black to prove
it. The "because they were black" part is abstruse and just plain
silly.
Also, the fact that the real-life murders of Ted Bundy tell us
something about misogyny in patriarchal society is undeniable - you
don't have to argue that the men howling for Bundy's blood outside
the penitentiary in Colorado were somehow admirers - an abstruse
argument if there ever was one - for that fact to stand.
I was reminded of that habit in ideological argumentation when I
encountered it in that book. I even spent a fair amount of time
looking up Caputi's sources -- eg an article on early gyneocological
practices that included castrating women who were unruly or had too
much desire. It was a good, important article that she had quoted (to
show that Freud was just like these guys) without bothering to
mention that the gynecologist who proposed the practice was barred
from practicing in England. It was mainly being done in wild and
woolly 19th Century America.
In a recent collection of articles about the same topic I saw that
she has backed off on equating Freud and Jack the Ripper, for
whatever reason, and it makes for a better book. I thought it was an
interesting example of how feminist scholarship has evolved. There
have also been good books since about serial murder by Maria Tatar
and Sara L. Knox, books that are more sophisticated, more revealing
in some ways -- and at the same time less open about what they're
saying, so that I still value the blunt polemics of Caputi, where
there's no room for misconstruing her thesis.
I also think someone should check into the whereabouts between August
and November of 1888 of that gynecologist who got drummed out of the
corps...
>
> I'm uncertain as to whether your disagreement ends at finding
_Shallow
> Hal_ more critical of the "fat woman" trope than I'm giving it
credit
> for, or whether it runs deeper. Surely you agree that this is an
issue
> of considerable importance?
Absolutely. Didn't Terri Schiavo have her brain-destroying heart
attack because of an eating disorder? Laird Creger, I just learned,
might have gone on to win an Oscar someday if he hadn't had bariatric
surgery after finishing Hangover Square, and I'd say that Welles'
death at 70 was related to a diet, the latest of many - hence to all
those "fat" jokes.
But that's one reason I LIKE Shallow Hal, and more generally the work
of the Farrellys - their regular use of intellectually challenged and
otherwise non-standard actors (including the big Hawaiian guy who
turns up in a couple of films) is the result of a sincere commitment
on their part to fighting Hollywood's portrayal of a world where such
people don't exist.
Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, the author of Between Men and Epistemology of
the Closet, has "outed" herself as a fat woman and written about body
image politics. I haven't read the articles, but I'm sure they're
good, because her writing on homosexuality and homosociality (sp?) is
good.
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