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25201
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:47am
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> Hannibal L. is never shown to be a lady-killer. All the victims in
his
> past are men, too.
There was that nurse in "Silence" whose tongue he swallowed.
25202
From: "Fred Patton"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:49am
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) fred_patton
I've just watched SHALLOW HAL in its entirety and have to abandon my
previous position--many thanks to the missionaries. As was pointed out,
this inversion of beauty is always completely in Hal's POV, where it
makes complete sense. The exaggerated ugliness that gave me discomfort
seems now, in retrospect, the best way to have actors and
actresses "play" ugly, and the joke IS really on Hal's buddy, Mauricio,
in the dance scene I objected to. Getting past the ungrounded
ideological objections, there was so much finesse and subtlety to enjoy
that I really forward to subsequent viewings. Seems like a successful
anti-shallowness film to me. :-)
Fred Patton
25203
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:52am
Subject: Re: i feel a list coming on noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> IN THE REALM OF THE SENSES. Don't believe the doubters! It's an
erotic
> masterpiece. When she gets on top of him and so gracefully and
deftly
> slips his sex inside her, I almost pass away in a dead faint
everytime.
That wasn't my favorite moment (which was a hell of a lot less
graceful).
> SEX AND ZEN. Because I never realised one could do so much with
women's
> nipples in relation to every available nearby surface.
Glad to see this one mentioned.
25204
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:59am
Subject: Re: i feel a list coming on noelbotevera
Come to think of it, the Japanese have made plenty of pinku or roman
or even hentai films with rape scenarios. Wouldn't argue for their
artistic merit (tho they are often well made and even have stories and
performances), but there's a market out there creating demand for this
sort of thing.
25205
From: "Saul"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:43am
Subject: Re: i feel a list coming on asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> We haven't run out of erotic-cinema moments yet, have we ?? Like Bill,
> I react a little against over-'refinement' in this area of taste, and
> wish to speak up for some great moments of the flesh !!
Ok Adrian - well, here's a lack of refinement, I hope, and one which
for obvious reasons I didn't post before - as I didn't post the rest
of my erotic moments - but it's from Bergman's "Cries and Whisphers"
when the nurse suckles the sick woman on her large breast (am I
remembering right? it's been years since I've seen this and don't have
the film handy), and this woman, sick with fever and dying, is now
drinking from the only person in the entire film who seems to have
understood (perhaps 'loved' is a better word) her.
25206
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) f_verissimo
let the church say amen!
with all glory and praise forever!
fv
Fred:
> I've just watched SHALLOW HAL in its entirety and have to abandon my
> previous position--many thanks to the missionaries. As was pointed out,
> this inversion of beauty is always completely in Hal's POV, where it
> makes complete sense. The exaggerated ugliness that gave me discomfort
> seems now, in retrospect, the best way to have actors and
> actresses "play" ugly, and the joke IS really on Hal's buddy, Mauricio,
> in the dance scene I objected to. Getting past the ungrounded
> ideological objections, there was so much finesse and subtlety to enjoy
> that I really forward to subsequent viewings. Seems like a successful
> anti-shallowness film to me. :-)
25207
From: "Noel Bjorndahl & Carole Dent"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:57am
Subject: Re: Re: i feel a list coming on noelbjorndahl
Rossellini: in Cartesius, Descartes (Ugo Cardea) has just spent at least two hours in cerebral conversations about mathematics and the meaning of life when he turns to the servant girl Elena (Anne Pouchie) and discreetly kisses her on the lips. The erotic moment is so surprising and electrifying in the context it made me gasp.
Noel ----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Vera
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: i feel a list coming on
Come to think of it, the Japanese have made plenty of pinku or roman
or even hentai films with rape scenarios. Wouldn't argue for their
artistic merit (tho they are often well made and even have stories and
performances), but there's a market out there creating demand for this
sort of thing.
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25208
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:58am
Subject: Re: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) f_verissimo
Noel:
> There was that nurse in "Silence" whose tongue he swallowed.
I don't remember that.
he talks the guy who lives in the cell next to him (Miggs, the one that says
"I can smell your cunt" to Clarice) into swallowing his own tongue.
Hannibal prefers liver, with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
*Hisses*...
fv
25209
From: samadams@...
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:18am
Subject: Re: I feel a list coming on arglebargle31
She must have done it by accident, since she seems so determined to
make crap these days. It's funny how the most insulting things she
has to say about the movie still sound like compliments.
Sam
At 3:47 AM +0000 4/4/05, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>--- Adrian Martin wrote:
>
>>
>> BUFFALO 66. People look at me oddly when I say this,
>> but Gallo and
>> Ricci are really very gorgeous as a couple in this
>> film.
>
>And Ricci will REALLY look at you oddly. She's
>denounced the film and has said making it was the
>biggest mistake of her career so far.
>
25210
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:55am
Subject: Re: Violence Vs Storytelling (was: Violence and pleasure) henrik_sylow
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> By contrast, a modern movie such as "Se7en" spends a lot of its time on
> designer gore and horror effects. The plot and characters are
largely secondary,
> and not especially well developed.
> This seems like a huge step down for the cinema.
I disagree. Characters are very developed in "Se7en" and are displayed
mainly thru dialogue (Bondage? - Its not what you think), but also
thru subtle elements, as in the after dinner case discussion scene,
where Freeman asks for a glas of wine and Pitt hands it to him in a
waterglas, almost full to the top, noting how unsophisticated his
character is. Even the murders themselves do draw character, like the
model, who chose to kill herself rather than living disfigured.
While the murders and their grusome nature do take a central role,
they are but catalysts for character, a "weight" that tips the scale.
We can thank Fincher and Pitt for the refined characters. The original
story did not have many of the subtle touches, as the wine in
waterglass, which was added by Pitt. And Fincher changed the script in
several places, most significantly the ending, which originally had
Freeman shooting John Doe with the catchphrase, "Im retiring".
Towards the violence in "Se7en", it is not more violent or grusome
than what happends in real life, but is just bend towards having a
symbolic significance noting upon the twisted mind of John Doe. And
even as twisted as it is, it makes perfect sense within his reason,
and reflects upon how violence is eaten up in todays society. Serial
killers do reach celeb like status, murders are constantly written
into real-crime books, and the more grusome, the more they sell. I bet
there are more people who know the details of specific murders by
famous serial killers, than they know about contemporary politics or
history.
Henrik
25211
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:30am
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Verissimo"
verissimo@u...> wrote:
> Noel:
> > There was that nurse in "Silence" whose tongue he swallowed.
>
> I don't remember that.
>
The doctor in charge of him describes her to Clarice, shows her a
picture of what he did.
25212
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:33am
Subject: Re: Violence Vs Storytelling (was: Violence and pleasure) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
>
>
> I disagree. Characters are very developed in "Se7en" and are
displayed
> mainly thru dialogue (Bondage? - Its not what you think), but also
> thru subtle elements
And here I depart with Henrik. I thought se7en very silly, myself.
25213
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:41am
Subject: Re: i feel a list coming on noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Saul" wrote:
>it's from Bergman's "Cries and Whisphers"
> when the nurse suckles the sick woman on her large breast (am I
> remembering right? it's been years since I've seen this and don't
have
> the film handy), and this woman, sick with fever and dying, is now
> drinking from the only person in the entire film who seems to have
> understood (perhaps 'loved' is a better word) her.
The nurse would be Anna (Kari Sylwan), and the dying woman would be
Agnes (Harriet Anderssen). I'm not sure if you're confusing that with
the later scene, where the dead Agnes cries out from beyond the grave
for comfort, and Anna is the only one who steps forward and cradles
her in her breasts.
Now that was erotic.
25214
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 9:16am
Subject: Re: se7en habelove
> I disagree. Characters are very developed in "Se7en" and are displayed
> mainly thru dialogue (Bondage? - Its not what you think), but also
> thru subtle elements, as in the after dinner case discussion scene,
> where Freeman asks for a glas of wine and Pitt hands it to him in a
> waterglas, almost full to the top, noting how unsophisticated his
> character is. Even the murders themselves do draw character, like the
> model, who chose to kill herself rather than living disfigured.
>
Also, the plot structure is pretty ingenious, with an ending that is that rare
combination of surprising and inevitable, not to mention meaningful and powerful.
Pretty hot stuff, from a storytelling point of view, me thinks.
Hadrian
25215
From: "Saul"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:23pm
Subject: "Light Sleeper" updates. asitdid
Online Now Send IM
Hi. Just a note to let all afb'ers know of the recent updates to the
online film journal I established, "Light Sleeper: Late Night Writings
on Cinema".
I have started a section entitled "Lost Reviews/Articles", which
prints just that, reviews/articles which were written by critics at
any time in the past but, for whatever reasons, never reached
publication - (there is, on the site, an intro entitled: "Why Lost
Reviews?")
The "Lost Reviews/Articles" are:
(1) "La Dolce Anita" By Ronald Bergan
(2) "Out of his Depp" By Bill Krohn
(3) "Shooting an Elephant" By Bill Krohn
(4) "Aporia" By Bill Krohn
(5) "The Natural Art of Rauni Mollberg" By Peter Cowie
(This is an ongoing project, and more 'lost reviews' will be posted in
time...)
Also, there are two reprints of older articles in the journal.
They are:
(1) "A Jam Session on Non-Narrative" By Raymond Durgnat, David
Ehrenstein and Jonathan Rosenbaum (with new prefaces by JR and DE)
(2) "Pasolini and the Marquis de Sade" By Gideon Bachmann (with a new
introduction by Gideon Bachmann to be included soon...)
There will be more reprints in time, with one for Raymond Durgnat's
"Standing Up for Jesus" coming soon...(just looking for someone to
write an intro/preface).
Also, afb'er Aaron Graham is now a reviewer for the journal, covering
Kino International DVD releases. Currently posted is his review of
"Edison: The Invention of the Movies", with more reviews of Kino DVD's
to follow....
Hope everyone enjoys the pieces,
-- Saul.
25216
From: "Saul"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:27pm
Subject: P.S. Re: "Light Sleeper" updates. asitdid
Online Now Send IM
Ooopse - for thos who don't have it, the URL for the journal is:
http://www.lightsleepercinemag.com/
25217
From: "samfilms2003"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:49pm
Subject: Re: Violence Vs Storytelling (was: Violence and pleasure) samfilms2003
> Towards the violence in "Se7en", it is not more violent or grusome
> than what happends in real life, but is just bend towards having a
> symbolic significance noting upon the twisted mind of John Doe
It's not real world violence, it's art directed violence.
The real deal and half the audience would run from the theater.
Fincher is arty in Seven but no kind of artist.
-Sam
25218
From: programming
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: POST 503 Found! cfprogramming
On 4/2/05 8:51 AM, "Saul" wrote:
>
> I've sometimes considered writing reviews of 'lost films' (aka:
> made-up films) that I 'found' somewhere in an Australian film archive
> (which would be quite believable seeing as so many movies considered
> lost have turned up here due to Australia being, in the past, and
> sometimes in the present, last on the shipping route for distributed
> prints). JP, was there ever a plot outline for "Post 503" or any other
> info concerning this film? I haven't read or seen the Positif article
> mentioned. Jonathan: is Aaron Green's biography/filmography available
> anywhere? I'd love to be able to mention/reference these filmmakers
> and film in future reviews/articles/etc....
>
>
Hi All,
Chris Marker has produced several posters of fake "lost" films. I saw these
at the Wexner Center in Columbus, OH several years ago (they were
"satellite" parts of his installation SILENT MOVIE).
Can't remember the details, but things like Turn of the Screw (1928)
directed by Tod Browning starring Wallace Beery and Joan Crawford (just to
be clear - this is made up! - although I'd love to see it).
Best,
Patrick Friel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
25219
From: "samfilms2003"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:00pm
Subject: Re: "Light Sleeper" updates. samfilms2003
> Hi. Just a note to let all afb'ers know of the recent updates to the
> online film journal I established, "Light Sleeper: Late Night Writings
> on Cinema".
> (1) "A Jam Session on Non-Narrative" By Raymond Durgnat, David
> Ehrenstein and Jonathan Rosenbaum (with new prefaces by JR and DE)
Wow this is really good.
Also, it sums up some of my frustration at explaining / justifying (as if
one really should have to justify, but sometimes it seems that way) my
taste in, and sometimes making of, so-called "non-narrative film"
(don't like the phrase but that's another thread; one easy reason tho
is "non" isn't how I'd want to describe it or anything, maybe...)
i.e. maybe now I can say "hey you're paying 8 bucks a pop for non-narrativity
most trips to da movies whether you like it or not ;-)"
Thanks
-Sam
25220
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Patton"
wrote:
Seems like a successful
> anti-shallowness film to me. :-)
>
> Fred Patton
Thanks for taking another look, and I hope the other Farrelly films you
haven't seen give you as much pleasure. (Isn't the last visit to the
burn center a trong moment?) If you still haven't seen Stuck on You,
it's the one that convinced me they weren't just gross-out comics and
sent me back to the ones I had missed (everything but Mary).
Ironically, advance word on Fever Pitch indicates that "alternate"
critics will be gunning for them becaue it ISN'T a gross-out comedy.
You can't win for losing...
25221
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:17pm
Subject: Dwoskin (Was: i feel a list coming on) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
>
> DWOSKIN. Hey, Jean-Claude Brisseau might have saved himself some
> 'research' if he had imbibed the oeuvre of the great Dwoskin, who
seems
> so unknown among AFB members
I 've been wanting to see a Dwoskin film since reading the CdC review
of BIHINDERT. Are some of them available on tape now?
25222
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:46pm
Subject: Joe Morgenstern wins the Putlitzer Prize cellar47
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/04/business/media/04wire-pulitzer.html
This is just so cool!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
25223
From: "Fred Patton"
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) fred_patton
The burn unit scene was the most affecting for me and made me
appreciate the effectiveness of this beauty / ugliness dichotomy all
the more. The kissing game then receives its full weight in
retrospect. The broken chairs in restaurant scenes also went beyond
cuteness because one couldn't so easily insensitively quip, "Well,
what'd they expect..." When Rosemary struggles to get up or Hal to
help her, the moment is stripped of any visual blockages generated by
the stigma of obesity, and visually the viewer is confronted with what
Hal sees--a person. Also, in the same scene with the hostess, before
and after, is interesting in that one already has already formed an
impression, and when it is corrected, it doesn't erase what was seen
before, it adds to it.
I'd only previously seen SOMETHING ABOUT MARY, so I have more to look
forward to.
Fred Patton
25224
From: MG4273@...
Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 9:12pm
Subject: Re: "Light Sleeper" updates. nzkpzq
(1) "A Jam Session on Non-Narrative" By Raymond Durgnat, David
> Ehrenstein and Jonathan Rosenbaum (with new prefaces by JR and DE)
This article was quite revealing in its discussion of Hitchcock's "Number
17". I thought I was the only person completely baffled by the plot here
(versions I've seen have bad or faded sound recording). But apparently the narrative
maelstrom here is integral to this strange film's conception. Very interesting!
I loved "Number 17" anyway - dig the whole long sequence on the staircase,
that favorite Hitchcock locale. And the delightful model work at the end - some
of the best models in early 30's films, along with "The Bat Whispers" (Roland
West).
This article concentrates on 2 types of films: films which deliberately use
non-standard narrative techniques: Bunuel, Resnais, "Playtime" (Tati). And
films which seem to start out as narrative films, but which for whatever reason
become scrambled: "Number 17", "Vampyr", "The Big Sleep" (Hawks' second version
- the more coherent version 1 was not in release when this article appeared in
1978). I think such films are quite interesting and enjoyable. BUT: They form
only the tiniest percentage of films in film history.
I would hate to see these good films be used to somehow justify an annoying
type of film that is all too common today: The narrative film in which almost
nothing happens ("What Time Is It There?", "The White Balloon", etc). These
films lack the experimental narrative of Resnais or Bunuel. They are just plain
dull...
Mike Grost
25225
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) f_verissimo
> The doctor in charge of him describes her to Clarice, shows her a
> picture of what he did.
Right. I forgot that.
I swear I'll swallow my own tongue before I make that kind of mistake again.
fv
25226
From: "samfilms2003"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:22am
Subject: Re: "Light Sleeper" updates. samfilms2003
> I would hate to see these good films be used to somehow justify an annoying
> type of film that is all too common today: The narrative film in which almost
> nothing happens ("What Time Is It There?", "The White Balloon", etc). These
> films lack the experimental narrative of Resnais or Bunuel. They are just plain
> dull...
Don't worry maybe I'll use "Lancelot du Lac" to justify a masterpice like
"What Time Is It There". ;-)
Obviously, that discussion merits a more thorough appreciation from
me than just a mention of it as some kind of ammo to win a casual
debating point "see where you're eight bucks really goes" (8 - what was
I thinking, it's 2005.....)
I'll see what I can do. But anyway, the boundaries between non and
narrative fascinate me, so I appreciate this reprint on the web.
-Sam
25227
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:07am
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Patton"
wrote:
>
> The burn unit scene was the most affecting for me and made me
> appreciate the effectiveness of this beauty / ugliness dichotomy all
> the more. The kissing game then receives its full weight in
> retrospect.
It's a warm scene, and in retrospect, a little eerie: because the
words "Burn Unit" evoke scary pictures in one's mind, but also because
of that split seeing and believing, the fundamental equation on which
most films are based. To me Shallow Hal is a new form of the Uncanny,
when something isn't what it seems to be. Independent of the moral and
emotional curve of the story, that's a spooky idea, one that the
Matrix, say, made gestures toward but didn't really bring home to the
audience.
25228
From: "Fred Patton"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:27pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) fred_patton
I agree very much. SHALLOW HAL goes beyond the doppelganger effect
in that one is presented with identities and not simply disguises.
The fact that one knows in the X-MEN that someone has changed forms,
it's mere illusion; there is no pull toward re-identifying with the
disguised villain because of the altered appearance. With the
hostess and the burnt child, whichever one is being seen, the
alternate representation is readily recalled, and this oscillation
makes for this highly uncanny experience. I'm explaining this for my
own benefit really, Farrellian late-bloomer I am. Neither
alternative becomes fully satisfying, because both are seen as
incomplete, lacking its dual, since both parallel worlds are equally
necessary to understand Hal's view and the less imaginary one. All
of this irony, such as the two co-workers believing Hal is using the
poor girl, goes right at the seams of these two realities. At the
end, Hal doesn't need the crutch of physicality, making for a
Hegelian resolution, but the beautified images still persist
sentimentally for its ideally non-visual referent.
Eija-Liisa Ahtila, in her experimental work, seemed to play with
these kinds of things, but my memory needs refueling. The fact that
in SHALLOW HAL we have something highly narrative, would only make
something like this all the more uncanny.
Fred Patton
25229
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 4:16pm
Subject: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction peter_tonguette
I wanted to let everybody know that the latest issue of the online magazine I
write for, The Film Journal, is now online:
http://www.thefilmjournal.com
Of particular relevance to this group is the Letter from the Editor, a note
which announces a somewhat new direction we are headed in as a magazine. While
we've always had an auteurist presence in the journal, from this issue
forward we are going to be focusing on publishing work from that critical
perspective.
I also wanted to draw attention to the centerpiece of this particular issue,
a reprint of a great interview with John Ford from the 1960s, accompanied by a
wonderful new introduction by Tag Gallagher.
http://www.thefilmjournal.com/issue12/fordintro.html
http://www.thefilmjournal.com/issue12/ford.html
Cheers,
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
25230
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Patton"
wrote:
> I'd only previously seen SOMETHING ABOUT MARY, so I have more to
look
> forward to.
The Farellys have their moments but the movie I really liked
was "Kingpin"--thought it was the nastiest and most consistently funny.
25231
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Verissimo"
verissimo@u...> wrote:
> > The doctor in charge of him describes her to Clarice, shows her a
> > picture of what he did.
>
> Right. I forgot that.
> I swear I'll swallow my own tongue before I make that kind of
mistake again.
>
> fv
I don't know, I don't think the film was that significant--maybe the
only decent mainstream serial killer flick since uh, Clean, Shaven or
Henry (what about it, Bill K?). I don't think it's even Demme's best
work--that would probably be Melvin and Howard.
25232
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 10:05pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> I wanted to let everybody know that the latest issue of the online
magazine I
> write for, The Film Journal, is now online:
>
> http://www.thefilmjournal.com
>
> Of particular relevance to this group is the Letter from the
Editor, a note
> which announces a somewhat new direction we are headed in as a
magazine. While
> we've always had an auteurist presence in the journal, from this
issue
> forward we are going to be focusing on publishing work from that
critical
> perspective.
Bravo! -- not only for the letter, but for the whole issue. I would
like to think that the fact that Rick and Peter are both afb members -
and Peter a co-founder of the group - means that we have played some
part in this very important shift to overtly championing auteurism in
film criticism. This issue of The Film Journal may be remembered as a
turning point in a struggle that afb members are passionately
involved in. Bravo again for all who were involved.
25233
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Verissimo"
> verissimo@u...> wrote:
> > > The doctor in charge of him describes her to Clarice, shows her a
> > > picture of what he did.
> >
> > Right. I forgot that.
> > I swear I'll swallow my own tongue before I make that kind of
> mistake again.
> >
> > fv
>
> I don't know, I don't think the film was that significant--maybe the
> only decent mainstream serial killer flick since uh, Clean, Shaven or
> Henry (what about it, Bill K?). I don't think it's even Demme's best
> work--that would probably be Melvin and Howard.
<< I just saw M&H again and wouldn't disagree, although I was one of the
few who really liked Beloved and The Truth about Charley (sp?). What
people who set Silence of the Lambs aside as not typical of its author
forget is that there is a marked paranoid streak in Demme that is on
view early on, in Last Embrace and Citizen's Band. I've always thought
he'd be a good director for The Crying of Lot 49. Instead he made
Silence of the Lambs, which I plan to resee soon for purposes of
evaluation, but which I sort of dislike for historical reasons.
>>
I think serial killer cinema entered a period of decline in the 90s
from which it has never recovered. For me the heyday of serial killer
cinema begins with The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari and ends sometime in
the 70s. The Golden Age produced Caligari, The Lodger, Pandora's Box,
M, Night Must Fall, Drole de Drame, Shadow of a Doubt, The Leopard Man,
Arsenic and Old Lace, Bluebeard, Hanghover Square, The Spiral
Staircase, Pieges, Monsieur Verdoux, Follow Me Quietly, Night of the
Hunter, Bucket of Blood, The Criminal Life of Archibaldo de la Cruz,
While the City Sleeps, Screaming Mimi, Peeping Tom, Psycho, Blood and
Black Lace, Repulsion, The Bride Wore Black, Targets, The Boston
Strangler, Le Boucher, The Honeymoon Killers, The Bird with the Crystal
Plumage, 10 Rillington Place, Dirty Harry, Frenzy, Trauma, Vengeance Is
Mine, The Night Stalker, Sisters, Badlands, Black Christmas, Texas
Chainsaw Massacre, God Told Me To, Last Chants for a Slow Dance,
Halloween, When a Stranger Calls, Driller Killer, Cruising, Dressed to
Kill and many more that are a couple of notches below the level of
excellence represented by these films, or more obliquely "on topic."(I
didn't list Young Girls of Rochefort, for instance.)
Cruising and Dressed to Kill were at the beginning of the 80s, although
they feel more like the point d'orgue of the 70s. The 80s also brought
us The Fourth Man, Tightrope, Nightmare on Elm Street, Fear City, The
Atlanta Child Murders, Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, Matador,
Black Widow, Cop, Sea of Love, Doctor Petiot, Nightbreed and -
continuing into the 90s - Twin Peaks, Exorcist 3 and The People Under
the Stairs. I would say that the subject was still capable of inspiring
films with some emotional, social, philosophical and formal complexity
at this point. Even some of the slashers made during this period have
certain carnivalesque flair.
Then Silence of the Lambs won 5 Oscars and we suddenly had all these
copycat movies and tv series, which have seriously danaged the
reputation of serial killers. Not that good work hasn't continued to be
done - some of Fred Walton's best films belong to the 90s, which also
produced Freeway and Serial Mom - but the "genrefication" that followed
on the heels of Demme's hit has been pernicious in a way that the
success of Psycho wasn't in the 60s. The only hint of some possibility
of renewal has been all these direct-to-video SK films like Ed Gein and
Ted Bundy, or the arthouse equivalent: Sombre. But I would call that a
faint hope after the brilliant achievement of the earlier decades.
25234
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 11:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> I just saw M&H again and wouldn't disagree, although
> I was one of the
> few who really liked Beloved and The Truth about
> Charley (sp?). What
> people who set Silence of the Lambs aside as not
> typical of its author
> forget is that there is a marked paranoid streak in
> Demme that is on
> view early on, in Last Embrace and Citizen's Band.
> I've always thought
> he'd be a good director for The Crying of Lot 49.
> Instead he made
> Silence of the Lambs, which I plan to resee soon for
> purposes of
> evaluation, but which I sort of dislike for
> historical reasons.
>
Yep.
His "Manchurian Candiate," however represents a
comeback of sorts, IMO.
I've always favored early Demme: "Crazy Mama" and the
sublime "Caged Heat" most of all.
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25235
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:47am
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction jess_l_amortell
Two or three things that surprised me (more and/or less) in the Top 25 poll:
No Kiarostami (or any other Iranians?)
No Almodovar
No Lubitsch?
John Sturges but no Preston Sturges?
Michael Mann higher than Anthony Mann?
Fassbinder higher than Sirk
Couldn't "Find" Dovzhenko ... oops, he's there as "Dozhvenko"
Charles Chaplin at 15th place but Charlie Chaplin at 20th???
25236
From: "Saul"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:04am
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
> Charles Chaplin at 15th place but Charlie Chaplin at 20th???
Haha...Well, that makes sense: Charles Chaplin was always the
sophisticated director of comdies, pantomines with music, and what
have you. Charlie Chaplin was the Little Tramp, and he died along with
Monsieur Verdoux.
25237
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 1:02am
Subject: Re: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction peter_tonguette
Thank you for the kind and inspiring words, Bill. Although Rick must take
the lion's share of credit, I'm very proud with how this issue came out. I
would say that it is unlikely that the magazine - one I've written for in one
capacity or another for almost three years - would be making this change in
editorial direction were it not for my involvement with a_film_by. Not only has it
sharpened by own critical sensibilities immensely, but it's also reaffirmed in
my own mind the idea that there are a slew of writers out there who approach
film from an auteurist perspective.
And the Richard Fleischer symposium I mention in my Editor's Letter: it's
happening next issue and feel free to email me if anyone wants to pitch a piece!
As with Robert Mulligan, who was the focus of our previous issue, Fleischer
is a filmmaker with many serious admirers and yet relatively little great
writing exists on him.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
25238
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:01am
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" > I
think serial killer cinema entered a period of decline in the 90s
> from which it has never recovered. For me the heyday of serial
killer
> cinema begins with The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari and ends sometime
in
> the 70s.
Agreed, especially with Silence putting such a stamp on all subsequent
SK movies that they began to look like Japanese automobiles (alike).
But shouldn't you be narrowing down your Golden Age a bit? That's
something like forty years!
25239
From: "Fernando Verissimo"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:21am
Subject: Re: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction f_verissimo
> No Lubitsch?
I voted for him.
I understand you guys couldn't publish individual ballots, but shouldn't you
include a list of the survey's participants?
fv
25240
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:53am
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Verissimo"
verissimo@u...> wrote:
> > No Lubitsch?
>
> I voted for him.
>
> I understand you guys couldn't publish individual ballots, but
shouldn't you
> include a list of the survey's participants?
>
> fv
Go the Sight and Sound route--publish ALL their lists as well.
25241
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:54am
Subject: Pierre Rissent noelbotevera
I hear he's very ill. Does anyone have any details?
25242
From: "filipefurtado"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:07am
Subject: Re: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction filipefurtado
> Go the Sight and Sound route--publish ALL their lists as well.
I think that Rick could put all the lists in a txt file and had an option for download. It wouldn't change anything substantial or take any space in the issue and it would be easier to download to those who have curiosity about it.
Filipe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________________
Acabe com aquelas janelinhas que pulam na sua tela.
AntiPop-up UOL - É grátis!
http://antipopup.uol.com.br/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
25243
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:35pm
Subject: Re: The Birth of a Nation bufordrat
Apologies for the delayed response; I've been "out" for a few days.
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>And for the life of me I can't see it as being
>intended as anything else!
>
>Does everyone recall how the film ends?
>
>
There must be some miscommunication here. It would truly surprise me to
find that we disagreed about the racial politics of Griffith's film.
All I meant was that he doesn't seem to have made it thinking "I'm going
to make a film for the express purpose of spreading a pernicious
ideology that erroneously posits the Negro as a degenerate biological
type and attributes responsibility for civil unrest in the U.S. to
persons of this type." It's difficult for me to imagine any racist
proceeding in this manner.
My original point was that the language in which Bill cast _Shallow Hal_
and _The Birth of a Nation_ (I realized just after sending my original
post that I was guilty of contributing to the tradition Seymour Stern
rightly took it upon himself to lament--whoops) was anything but
neutral, leading me to question the usefulness of pointing out
"gotchas." It still sounds to me as though accusing someone of playing
gotcha amounts only to accusing them of disagreeing with you.
-Matt
25244
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:39pm
Subject: Re: Gotchas bufordrat
Hadrian wrote:
>This is semantics.
>
Pragmatics, to be precise.
>Honestly, I think it's a little silly for me to have to supply a meaning for the depth
>metaphor, would has been apt enough for common usage, and surely one you
>understand. Again, you could argue that it's a weak metaphor, but hardly that
> it's MEANINGLESS.
>
>
Why not? Contemporary parlance is riddled with nonsense that passes for
sense. Surely that's why Wittgenstein took it as his mission to
transform "disguised nonsense" into "patent nonsense."
>No, they don't use the explicit declarations I just gave. That was my own
>summation of what I thought they were saying through implication, presupposition,
>etc. as opposed to yours. I think mine made more sense, honestly.
>
When did I offer a take on what beauty cultists were saying? ("Doing"
would probably more apropos.) I don't recall having done so, and yet
somehow we're already getting into Occam's Razor.
-Matt
25245
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Gotchas cellar47
--- Matt Teichman wrote:
Contemporary parlance is riddled with
> nonsense that passes for
> sense. Surely that's why Wittgenstein took it as
> his mission to
> transform "disguised nonsense" into "patent
> nonsense."
>
Wittgensteiun was a great fan of Betty Hutton and
Carmen Miranda.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
25246
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Birth of a Nation cellar47
--- Matt Teichman wrote:
> All I meant was that he doesn't seem to have made it
> thinking "I'm going
> to make a film for the express purpose of spreading
> a pernicious
> ideology that erroneously posits the Negro as a
> degenerate biological
> type and attributes responsibility for civil unrest
> in the U.S. to
> persons of this type." It's difficult for me to
> imagine any racist
> proceeding in this manner.
>
Racists rarely state their motives baldly.
__________________________________
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Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
25247
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:18pm
Subject: Re: The Birth of a Nation michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Racists rarely state their motives baldly.
I suspect most racists truly believe they are "telling the truth".
I'm sure this was Griffith's outlook. The fact that a peddler of
racist myths may be completely "sincere" does not excuise their
racism, however.
25248
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:31pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
>
> Two or three things that surprised me (more and/or less) in the
Top 25 poll:
>
> No Kiarostami (or any other Iranians?)
>
> No Almodovar
>
> No Lubitsch?
>
> John Sturges but no Preston Sturges?
>
> Michael Mann higher than Anthony Mann?
>
> Fassbinder higher than Sirk
>
> Couldn't "Find" Dovzhenko ... oops, he's there as "Dozhvenko"
>
> Charles Chaplin at 15th place but Charlie Chaplin at 20th???
He he he. It comes with copy from Excel and pasting into HTML.
Ok, so here goes. Chaplin has been upgraded due to the multiple
listing.
Can't help you with Almodovar or Kiarostami.
Lubitsch is at #13. He was, somehow, sorted out in the transfer.
Also, Preston Sturges somehow became John Sturges when I was
sorting. Just a mind-lapse typo, because I don't think the other
Sturges got a single vote.
Fassbinder-Sirk? Don't know what to say.
Dovzhenko must have been spelled wrong in one of the ballots and
when I sorted them, I kept the incorrect spelling. Again, my fault.
For the Sarris update, I will certainly display complete ballot
information.
Rick
25249
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:42pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Thank you for the kind and inspiring words, Bill. Although Rick
must take
> the lion's share of credit, I'm very proud with how this issue
came out.
Though I've not been a particularly vocal member of afb, Peter's
passion for it and my perception of the group as an inspiration for
contemporary auteurist thinking and writing, certainly helped make
this decision easier. Response has already been great, from those
here (thank you with all my heart, Bill) and from our readers.
Issue 12 will easily be our most widely read issue yet (in the first
5 days of its publication, it's had more visitors than any issue
prior to Issue 10 in its entirety).
I hope afb can become a creative pool of resources for the journal
(and we're hoping to be able to pay for contributions very soon!).
Thanks again, everyone.
Rick
25250
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:23pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Curnutte"
wrote:
> Can't help you with Almodovar or Kiarostami.
I had Kiarostami on my ballot at number 12. I do find it highly
surprising that he didn't make the final cut while two other directors
for whom I voted, Gillian Anderson [sic -- should be Armstrong] and
William Dieterle, my numbers 22 and 25, respectively, did show up on
the list. I certainly would not have expected these two somewhat more
obscure (in terms of general acclaim) filmmakers to have overall
greater support in the poll than Kiarostami.
25251
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>
>
> His "Manchurian Candiate," however represents a
> comeback of sorts, IMO.
I liked it. Which reminds me - an earlier example of the kind of "uncanny" that I see
in Shallow Hal woulkkd be the opening of Frankenheimer's Manchurian Candidate -
the tea party that is really happening in Red China.
25252
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Violence and pleasure (Was: Powell/Pressburger + Feminist journals) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" > I
> think serial killer cinema entered a period of decline in the 90s
> > from which it has never recovered. For me the heyday of serial
> killer
> > cinema begins with The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari and ends sometime
> in
> > the 70s.
>
> Agreed, especially with Silence putting such a stamp on all subsequent
> SK movies that they began to look like Japanese automobiles (alike).
> But shouldn't you be narrowing down your Golden Age a bit? That's
> something like forty years!
Perhaps there were two, each followed by an attempt at "genrefication" that didn't
inhibit creativity: Caligari to Psycho (followed by a spate of "psycho-killer movies" in
the 60s) and the 60s and 70s (followed by the spate of "slashers"). The 80s, a kind
of last flowering, kept on tickin' despite all those cookie cutter slashers, and then in
the 90s Silence "perfected" the genre and brought things to a halt, except for gory
films existing in the margins and focusing on the behavior of killers, sans profilers.
25253
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:11pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
>
> I hear he's very ill. Does anyone have any details?
That's terrible. Pierre has been diabetic for years. has he taken a turn for the worst?
I saw him 6 months ago w. Scott and Gabe and he was fine.
25254
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:11pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Curnutte"
> wrote:
>
> > Can't help you with Almodovar or Kiarostami.
>
>
> I had Kiarostami on my ballot at number 12. I do find it highly
> surprising that he didn't make the final cut while two other
directors
> for whom I voted, Gillian Anderson [sic -- should be Armstrong] and
> William Dieterle, my numbers 22 and 25, respectively, did show up on
> the list. I certainly would not have expected these two somewhat
more
> obscure (in terms of general acclaim) filmmakers to have overall
> greater support in the poll than Kiarostami.
He's there, at number 14. It seems that several of the directors got
sorted out from my original spreadsheet in the transfer to HTML. I've
compared the two lists now, and they should be accurate. Any other
inaccuracies, feel free to point them out (not that you're a shy lot).
I promise the next poll will be more on the money.
Rick
25255
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:14pm
Subject: Re: The Birth of a Nation hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Matt Teichman wrote:
It still sounds to me as though accusing someone of playing
> gotcha amounts only to accusing them of disagreeing with you.
>
> -Matt
It amounts to accusing someone of disagreeing with me in a specific, abstruse,
arguable way. There are gotchas and gotchas - those I agree with are great. I don't
really know any other way to separate the wheat from gthe chaff.
25256
From: "Gabe Klinger"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent gcklinger
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
> >
> > I hear he's very ill. Does anyone have any details?
>
> That's terrible. Pierre has been diabetic for years. has he taken a turn for the worst?
> I saw him 6 months ago w. Scott and Gabe and he was fine.
I don't think there is anything to be worried about.
I just heard from two different people that he is fine and heading out to the film festival in
Alba for several days.... There. I was alarmed by Noel's post this morning, but I don't think
there is any indication Pierre is more ill now than he has been in the last few years. Just, as
Scott says, more conscientious about it.
Gabe
25257
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:33pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
I don't think
> there is any indication Pierre is more ill now than he has been in the last few
years. Just, as
> Scott says, more conscientious about it.
>
> Gabe
Thanks, Gabe. Glad to hear it. I really love that goofy bastard.
25258
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:17pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction jess_l_amortell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
> directors
> for whom I voted, Gillian Anderson [sic -- should be Armstrong]
While J. Hoberman's Voice blurb for The House of Mirth today says: "Present in virtually every scene, Gillian Armstrong gives a stunning performance..."
25259
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:34pm
Subject: OT: Link for TFJ Contributors racurnutte1
Just an FYI for current and potential contributors to THE FILM
JOURNAL. We've set up a rudimentary page that lists various materials
we have available for review:
http://www.thefilmjournal.com/contributorsresources.html
Rick Curnutte
25260
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:16pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>>
> Thanks, Gabe. Glad to hear it. I really love that goofy bastard.
"Goofy bastard"??
Well, come to think of it...
25261
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> >>
> > Thanks, Gabe. Glad to hear it. I really love that goofy bastard.
>
>
> "Goofy bastard"??
>
> Well, come to think of it...
Alluding to the ongoing Farrelly debate - a reference to Something About Mary.
25262
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:32pm
Subject: Pierre Rissient: alive and well jpcoursodon
I just got an e-mail from Tavernier who had dinner with Pierre this
very evening. Bertrand says Pierre looked happy and full of energy,
talked a lot, as usual, about recent films he liked (the Eastwood,
Sideways...) and disliked (can't remember which ones...) and was very
funny. Of course, as Bertrand also said, Pierre tends to make a
mystery of his health problems...
After losing a Pope we can hardly afford losing an eminence grise...
JPC
25263
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:34pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissent jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> Alluding to the ongoing Farrelly debate - a reference to Something
About Mary.
I really have to brush up my Farrellys...
JPC
25264
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> After losing a Pope we can hardly afford losing an
> eminence grise...
>
Indeed!
http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g012/pierrerissient.html
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25265
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:41pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > After losing a Pope we can hardly afford losing an
> > eminence grise...
> >
>
> Indeed!
>
> http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/g012/pierrerissient.html
>
"grise" David, not "gris"
>
25266
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 10:58pm
Subject: "Dyer. George Dyer." cellar47
Daniel Craig is the new James Bond.
But for me he'll always be the Kray tough who fell in
love with Francis Bacon.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119577/
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25267
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 11:57pm
Subject: Re: "Dyer. George Dyer." jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Daniel Craig is the new James Bond.
>
> But for me he'll always be the Kray tough who fell in
> love with Francis Bacon.
>
So, a gay Bond? How perfectly divine!
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
25268
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 8:05pm
Subject: Re: "Dyer. George Dyer." nzkpzq
I think Daniel Craig might also have played quantum physicicst Werner
Heisenberg in the film "Copenhagen", but I am uncertain.
Mike Grost
25269
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:12am
Subject: Re: Re: "Dyer. George Dyer." cellar47
--- MG4273@... wrote:
> I think Daniel Craig might also have played quantum
> physicicst Werner
> Heisenberg in the film "Copenhagen", but I am
> uncertain.
>
You are correct.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0340057/
__________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
25270
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 9:43pm
Subject: Re: "Dyer. George Dyer." nzkpzq
In a message dated 05-04-06 20:14:54 EDT, David E writes:
<< --- MG4273@... wrote:
> I think Daniel Craig might also have played quantum physicicst Werner
> Heisenberg in the film "Copenhagen", but I am uncertain. >
You are correct.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0340057/ >>
It's a physics joke: Heisenberg developed the Uncertainty Principle. :)
Actually, the only Craig film I've seen is "Hotel Splendide".
Mike Grost
25271
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well nzkpzq
I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
But - who is he?
The IMDB says he is the writer and director of two films.
Mike Grost
Who loves French films, but who is no expert on them...
Heck, I just caught up with "Quai des brumes" (Marcel Carne, 1938)!
25272
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:44am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
> But - who is he?
>
> The IMDB says he is the writer and director of two films.
>
> Mike Grost
> Who loves French films, but who is no expert on them...
> Heck, I just caught up with "Quai des brumes" (Marcel Carne, 1938)!
Sic transit gloria mundi
25273
From: "Gabe Klinger"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:24am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well gcklinger
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
> But - who is he?
A man of many hats. Literally. Also many t-shirts.
Let's just say, put Bill and Pierre in the same room and you have an overdose of cinephilia.
Gabe
25274
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:37am
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction cinebklyn
Rick wrote:
> Fassbinder-Sirk? Don't know what to say.
Somemight say that the more talented filmmaker was
ranked above the less talented one.
Brian
25275
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:56am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
> > But - who is he?
>
> A man of many hats. Literally. Also many t-shirts.
>
> Let's just say, put Bill and Pierre in the same room and you have
an overdose of cinephilia.
>
> Gabe
I like to think of him as Mephisto. Or Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
Quite a character. I think he told me of his diabetes. I'm
rechecking what I heard, glad to hear he's alive and well.
He helped Lino Brocka smuggle several of his film prints out of the
Philippines--I'd say he saved the very best of Brocka's work. Which
is why they're in viewable condition instead of turning into vinegar
as most Filipino films of the '70s are doing right now.
Even nowadays he's a friend of our cinema. He was at the screening
of "Babae sa Breakwater" at last year's Director's Fortnight--first
Filipino film to screen in Cannes in fifteen or so years.
25276
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:01am
Subject: Re: Violence Vs Storytelling (was: Violence and pleasure) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> I am not a gorehound - and find most gory scenes in movies just
something
> very dull and fairly icky I have to endure.
> A big aesthetic change that I lament:
> "Entertainment" used to mean "storytelling", to many people.
Often today, it
> means "violence, gore and horror effects".
> An old time Western, such as "A Lawless Street" (Joseph H. Lewis),
used to
> spend a great deal of its running time on plot, characterization,
and character
> interaction - "storytelling". These became enormously complex over
the course
> of the film, and very absorbing.
> By contrast, a modern movie such as "Se7en" spends a lot of its
time on
> designer gore and horror effects. The plot and characters are
largely secondary,
> and not especially well developed.
> This seems like a huge step down for the cinema.
> In fact, I suspect that the replacement of "storytelling"
by "violence" in
> the popular arts after around 1970 or so is the single biggest
factor in the
> artistic decline of commercial movies, and comic books.
> When I go to a film like "Se7en", I feel I am at a conversation in
which I am
> not wanted, and my tastes are ignored. Both the director and the
audience are
> there to exchange gory imagery with each other - pure and simple.
My desire
> for a story and characters is not part of the equation. (By the
way, I went to
> this picture after getting a misleading impression about it from a
trailer,
> which seemed to paint it as a Hitchcock-style thriller).
> Usually I just stay away from really violent modern movies. I do
not
> disapprove of others seeing them - and am not trying to be a
killjoy. But I do mourn
> the great world of popular storytelling they replaced.
>
> Mike Grost
There were some good responses at the time--and the violence/gore
thread is not new and keeps coming back and will surely continue to
do so--but I wanted to come back to this post because I feel a
particular sympathy for a couple of things Mike says. First, if I
were given the choice tonight to watch either "A Lawless Street"--a
movie I have seen a number of times--or "Se7en"--which I've only
seen once, I would opt for the former, and partly for the reasons he
says.
I like violence in films, and I like action in films. But in
classical films, and Westerns will always be the best example, there
never needed to be much of either. Instead, there was often a
carefully laid-out narrative, with deeply-drawn characters, which
could be richly inflected by the director no matter how familiar the
motifs. The result was that when the climactic action came, this
well-motivated action, which could be very forceful in its violence,
had a cathartic power often lacking in later films. Perhaps an
ideal example of this is the lengthy climax of "Man of the West."
I pretty much agree with Mike that this has gone by the wayside, and
just as much in contemporary movies, policiers like Finchers, a
movie on which everyone seems to have a strong opinion.
And I do too. Surprisingly, this one overcame my prejudices, which
Mike states very well in his "a conversation in which I am not
wanted..." line. I didn't intend to see this, but it got so much
serious critical attention that I finally relented in the last few
weeks of its theatrical run. I don't think it's a great example
of "storytelling" as one sees in the classic cinema, but is it
trying to be that kind of film? Rather, it seems interested in the
realization of a very dark vision of the world, but one in which one
feels light somewhere. This is probably the element on which
Fincher (and his cinematographer--sorry that name is eluding me)
seem to have given the most attention. The visual texture of this
movie is stunningly beautiful--it's been awhile for me to recall it
as well as I'd like but I remember its deep blacks and coldly
shimmering surfaces in the investigation scenes which seem to lock
the characters into a terrible purgatory which the world has become.
I don't think the dialogue with the audience in this is an enjoyment
of gore, though that element is foregrounded. The horror and gore
are placed against humanity--again, we feel "a vestige of the
thoughts that once we had" (and apologies to Christina Rossetti for
again changing from singular to plural as "Kiss Me Deadly" did),
especially in the character played by Morgan Freeman. The scene in
which he goes to the library accompanied by the Bach "Air" is
obvious I know, yet it is affecting. It expresses the film's deeper
concerns. And that brings me to a point.
No more than characterization is "Se7en" concerned with classical
storytelling--the characters are essentially opaque, there to serve
the vision of the film. But within that limitation they are very
well realized (did you see Brad Pitt try to play Achilles?). This
is especially true of Freeman's veteran detective. This is a
character we all know well from many films over the years, and
variations of it have been played in masterpieces and by some of the
best actors. Yet somehow, as constrained as the context is, Freeman
actually carries this familiar character to a whole new level.
There is something about the way he inhabits the man that gives
incredible substance to a character never really fleshed out in the
script. I may not love this movie the way I do so many others but
I'll never forget the last closeup of him and what he says over it
in his concluding narration.
A film to which I was not inclined, nor am I more inclined to this
kind of film after seeing it. But I thought it was superb and have
to acknowledge talent in David Fincher. I still haven't seen any
other of his films. Maybe I should.
Blake
[Please note my new snappier i.d. with this--when I originally
signed on I incorrectly had the impression I had to attach my name
to it]
25277
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 8:17am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
> > But - who is he?
>
> A man of many hats. Literally. Also many t-shirts.
>
> Let's just say, put Bill and Pierre in the same room and you have an
overdose of cinephilia.
>
> Gabe
If such a thing is possible.
25278
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 8:27am
Subject: Re: I Feel a List Coming On hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> For me, any list of memorable erotic moments in cinema would shade
quickly
> into areas that have nothing to do with cinema craft or art. But
here are
> a few scenes that I don't think have been mentioned yet, where
direction
> plays a role in creating the frisson.
>
> 1) There's a remarkable moment in Cukor's CAMILLE, during the early
part
> of the Armand-Marguerite romance, after Robert Taylor sinks to his
knees
> and says, "I can't leave," where Garbo impulsively covers Taylor's
face
> with small, rapid kisses. For that brief moment, I have the
feeling that
> censorship has been thrown away, and that the actors are going to
do
> something forbidden before they regain control of themselves. It's
also
> moving that Garbo, usually too self-contained to convey sex,
suddenly
> shifts into a gear where it's very easy to imagine having sex with
her.
>
> 2) Someone mentioned Dorothy Malone, but no one has recalled that
> startling scene in BATTLE CRY where she undresses in an armchair.
One
> feels as if one has seen her naked.
>
> 3) Staying with Raoul Walsh, there's a peculiar moment in GUN FURY
where
> bad guy Philip Carey pushes or pulls kidnapped fiancee Donna Reed
to make
> her leave a room along with the outlaw gang. Reed's demeanor and
> expression, and the casual attitude of possession, somehow manages
to
> convey what Hollywood is forbidden to convey in such stories, that
Reed
> has been used sexually by her captors. (There might be some story
context
> that supports this interpretation. I think we saw Carey advance on
Reed
> in a preceding scene.)
>
> 4) As I have introduced the theme of power imbalance, there's that
uncanny
> scene in JAMAICA INN where Laughton binds and gags Maureen O'Hara.
As
> Truffaut observed in the Hitchcock interview, the situation seems
to
> connect to the inner submissive in O'Hara's character.
>
> 5) Continuing with fetishism: in one of Jane Campion's short films -
A
> GIRL'S OWN STORY, probably still her most accomplished work - a
young
> brother and sister play provocative, infantile games that will
eventually
> lead to a bad place. Trying to convince the truculent brother to
play,
> the sister imitates a cat, meowing and rubbing her face against her
> brother's knee. Totally unnerving.
>
> 6) Tobe Hooper's THE FUNHOUSE follows a fairly standard teen-horror
story,
> with protagonist Elizabeth Berridge and her friend going on a
double-date
> in the eponymous structure. Hooper sticks to the sex-before-
violence
> rhythm of the genre, but he pulls a tiny variation: good girl
("final
> girl"? Am I using that correctly?) Berridge is casually undressed
during
> the communal necking, and the camera finds her with her breasts
uncovered.
> In an unobtrusive way, Hooper is blurring a well-established
psychological
> boundary, and it feels a bit wanton. (Something similar might
happen in
> Lynch's FIRE WALK WITH ME - but I can't remember it well enough to
say for
> sure.)
>
> 7) On the theme of nudity enhanced by formal play: in Rudolph's
WELCOME TO
> L.A., Keith Carradine and Geraldine Chaplin are in Chaplin's
apartment,
> about to consummate their eccentric courtship. On a closeup of
> Carradine's face, we hear some noises, then hear Chaplin say, "I'm
naked
> now." Staying on Carradine makes us think that the nudity will be
elided
> - but then we cut to a sustained shot of Chaplin's full frontal
nudity,
> even more surprising because of the formal sleight-of-hand.
>
> That's all for me, Chance. - Dan
You're a very sick man, Dan.
25279
From: "Saul"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:15am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well asitdid
Online Now Send IM
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger" wrote:
>
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> > I'm very glad Pierre Rissient is doing so well!
> > But - who is he?
>
> A man of many hats. Literally. Also many t-shirts.
>
> Let's just say, put Bill and Pierre in the same room and you have an
overdose of cinephilia.
>
Gabe, doesn't that kind of answer the question without answering it?
25280
From: MG4273@...
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:58am
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well nzkpzq
Hey guys, fun is fun. But I sincerely want to learn more. I joined a_film_by
in part to try to change my ignorance (a slow and difficult process!).
Everyday I read about filmmakers here of whom I have never before heard. It's a
mind-expanding process. Will add Pierre Rissient to this list.
Mike Grost
25281
From: Matt Teichman
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:13pm
Subject: Re: The Birth of a Nation bufordrat
David Ehrenstein wrote:
>Racists rarely state their motives baldly.
>
>
Well, now you've hit on why I think what Bill was calling the gotcha is
necessary.
-Matt
25282
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well sallitt1
> Hey guys, fun is fun. But I sincerely want to learn more. I joined
> a_film_by in part to try to change my ignorance (a slow and difficult
> process!). Everyday I read about filmmakers here of whom I have never
> before heard. It's a mind-expanding process. Will add Pierre Rissient to
> this list.
Mike - I think Pierre Rissient is primarily known as a film writer and
historian, rather than as a filmmaker. Though I admit I don't know his
filmmaking either. - Dan
25283
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> Hey guys, fun is fun. But I sincerely want to learn more. I joined
a_film_by
> in part to try to change my ignorance (a slow and difficult
process!).
> Everyday I read about filmmakers here of whom I have never before
heard. It's a
> mind-expanding process. Will add Pierre Rissient to this list.
>
> Mike Grost
OK, here's the real lowdown.
Rissient (born in Paris, 1936)is not really a film critic or
historian (contrary to what Dan wrote) as he has published very
little, aside from one book on Joseph Losey in 1964. However his
influence has been quite considerable as a sort of behind the scene
cinephilic guru. Going back to the mid-fifties he took charge of
programming the famed MacMahon movie theatre in Paris and founded
the equally famed MacMahon Circle, whose cinephilia has been
discussed several times on a_film_by. He branched out into
distribution (MacMahon Distrib.) and also became a partner with
Bertrand Tavernier as press attache (and sometimes distrib.)
pioneering a new style of promoting films, especially foreign, esp.
American,, of the kind auteurists and cinephiles at large most
praised. As Noel pointed out, he was instrumental in arranging
release for films from the Philippines (he edited Lino
Brocka's "Bayan Ko/Kapit Sa Patalim" SP?) in 1984. He discovered
Hong Kong's King Hu, loved "A Touch of Zen" then, in a typical
Rissient reversal, totally rejected the man who, he wrote, "sank
into the most sordid vileness I ever witnessed."). Rissient's
film "Cinq et la peau", shot in Manilla, is quite a cult item among
French cinephiles (interesting Dossier on it in POSITIF #254-255,
May 1982). It has a rather fascinating early-Wenders quality...
JPC
25284
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:20pm
Subject: Rissient PS jpcoursodon
I forgot to mention that Pierre has been involved in programming the
Cannes Film Fest. for many years. But I have probably forgotten many
other things.
25285
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> He discovered
> Hong Kong's King Hu, loved "A Touch of Zen" then, in
> a typical
> Rissient reversal, totally rejected the man who, he
> wrote, "sank
> into the most sordid vileness I ever witnessed.").
WHOA! Do you know whatPierre thought of "Goodbye
Dragon Inn" J-P ?
> Rissient's
> film "Cinq et la peau", shot in Manilla, is quite a
> cult item among
> French cinephiles (interesting Dossier on it in
> POSITIF #254-255,
> May 1982). It has a rather fascinating early-Wenders
> quality...
>
I know he was also obsessed with Kubrick's "Fear and
Desire." I believe he hoped to re-release it somehow.
As for this business about T-shirts . . .
http://www.postmodern.com/ttgallery/groups/la_aug/pages/gerbils_jpg.htm
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
25286
From: "samfilms2003"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Violence Vs Storytelling (was: Violence and pleasure) samfilms2003
> But I thought it was superb and have
> to acknowledge talent in David Fincher.
Oh don't get me wrong, I think Fincher is quite talented. But I agree with Amy Taubin,
he's better than his material.
-Sam
ps Darius Khondji shot "Seven"
25287
From: "Rick Curnutte"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:57pm
Subject: Re: The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction racurnutte1
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
> > Fassbinder-Sirk? Don't know what to say.
>
> Somemight say that the more talented filmmaker was
> ranked above the less talented one.
>
> Brian
Actually, I agree. I was just saying that I didn't know what to say
about the complaint...
Rick
25288
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:07pm
Subject: Alice ou la derniere fugue (Was: Erotic, not porn) sallitt1
> Dan and Bill: Are you guys searching for this film at a cinema
> screening, or just for a copy full stop? I'm pretty sure it's
> available, if not on dvd then on vhs. I have a feeling Polygram Video
> released it in the early 80's. I'm sure I could find it on the Net
> somewhere.
Saul - I'd love to find this on VHS or DVD, but I think I'd need subtitles
(English or French). I can find a few references to an out-of-print
video, but nothing on DVD versions. - Dan
25289
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:21pm
Subject: Trafic 53 joe_mcelhaney
If anyone's interested, the latest issue of Trafic has a selection of
essays devoted to Minnelli: Bellour, Burdeau, Jacques Ranciere, Patrick
Brion, Judith Revault d'Allonnes and Jean-Claude Lebensztejn. Also, an
essay by Jean Louis Schefer on In the White City, Jean-Michel Durafour
on Wong Kar-Wai, etc.
Brion discusses, among other things, some of the production
circumstances of Minnelli's films and mentions the retakes done by
other directors on some of these: Kismet, Gigi, Lust for Life, all of
which is pretty well documented. But he also mentions Minnelli's work
on the films of others, including Best Foot Forward, The Heavenly Body,
and two Cukors, Gaslight and A Life of Her Own. All of this is news to
me although, of course, this sort of thing only becomes interesting if
one can actually detect the intervention of the uncredited director.
25290
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] fredcamper
Brian Charles Dauth wrote:
> Rick wrote:
>
>
>>Fassbinder-Sirk? Don't know what to say.
>
>
> Somemight say that the more talented filmmaker was
> ranked above the less talented one.
Well, I vehemently disagree. The notion that Fassbinder is "more
talented" than Sirk seems about as ridiculous to me as the proposition
that Speilberg is "more talented" than Hawks or Hitchcock.
Wait. Let's get rid of the "talented" concept, which doesn't really mean
anything, and talk about the films.
Fassbinder's films are nice humanist melodramas with some stylish
touches borrowed from Sirk. You may like them, or not, depending on your
appetite for interesting stories stylishly told that amount to no more.
(My appetite for that sort of thing is about zero).
Sirk's films are profound essays in the impossibility of human
understanding. The perceptual paradoxes he sets up don't stem from the
individual characters, though they usually connect with them, but go to
the very nature of human existence. The tiny figures of Ron Kirby
standing amid the Christmas trees in "All That Heaven Allows" or of
Annie Johnson in the Moulin Rouge in "Imitation of Life" are not tiny
only because of their place in the story at that moment, though their
size is surely appropriate to the meanings of their narratives, but
because in Sirk's universe, human beings are always qualified and
tentative presences. The entrance to the Miami hotel suite in "Written
on the Wind" is not simply a comment on the way Kyle is trying to use
his money translated into objects and surfaces to compensate for his
felt impotence (though it certainly is that); it also comments on the
blinding excess of American materialism; it also sets up blindingly
diverse color patterns and relationships that form a labyrinth that no
person could ever hope to navigate successfully, and in that sense it is
kin to the out-of-focus crucifix at the end of "The First Legion" and
Annie's "triumph of surfaces" funeral at the end of "Imitation of Life."
Sirk's meditation on human perception and human possibility and
impossibility place him in a league with Brakhage, and Cézanne.
I might extend the comparison to Haynes's "Far From Heaven," which I
rather liked. In the Haynes, the characters can't be happy because of
local conditions, racism or homophobia. In Sirk, characters can't be
happy because of the state of the universe.
I don't know the reasons behind these latest "opinions without backup,"
but I have to say that the mode of of defending a film in which the
style is seen as simply an effective vehicle for conveying character
emotion, which is perhaps the most common mode among auteurists and
which I certainly do plenty of, has, if it's the only defense, has
nearly zero correlation with my idea of what makes a film a work of art.
Fred Camper
25291
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Pierre Rissient: alive and well hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon" wrote:
>
> Rissient (born in Paris, 1936) is not really a film critic or
> historian
I'd call him a scholar-adventurer of the first generation of auteurism, but his work as
distributor, publicist and producer is probably what he'll be remembered for. He did a
lot to promote Walsh in France and was good friends with him and Lang. He was
also the key to Eastwood's marketing of himself as an auteur in Europe. And as a
grey eminence at Ciby 2000 he got The Piano made, along with a lot of films that
were less commercial, like Through the Olive Trees. When that company ceased to
exist, he became a g.e. at Pathe, from which he is now semi-retired.
Pierre's scholarship is unrecorded - it has become part of the common heritage and
is often attributed to others. For example, he's the guy who identified, tracked down
and interviewed Zimet, the blacklisted screenwriter of Ulmer's The Naked Dawn.
Lots and lots of primary research like that.
The travelling has often taken him to Asia - I suspect he was the first auteurist to
set foot in Korea, and he has lately been grey eminenc'ing the upsurge of distribution
of Korean cinema. He masterminded the release of Hong Sang-Soo's first 3 films
(more or less simultaneously) in France and renamed Oh, Soo-Young The Bride
Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, a typically smart commercial idea.
Every now and then I hear from Pierre because he wants to promote something at
Cannes thru CdC. He was backing Georgia - he likes Ulu Grossbard's invisible,
actor-driven filmmaking, so we talked about it; I saw a few; I saw the film, met w.
Grossbard and the writer and wrote a review for the pre-Cannes issue, which Pierre
had set up with them. When the legendary Simon Shin had his first film in years,
Vanished, premiering at Cannes, Pierre introduced me to Simon and Martha Chang,
who supplied me w. two key early Shins(I lost those tapes - no requests), and
without seeing Vanished (which I still haven't seen!) I wrote a portrait of Mr. Shin
focusing on his incredible adventures in the North and then in H'wd.
I'm always thrilled when Pierre calls because I know he has something for me that
will be well worth discovering, and I'm sure that is true of scores of other auteurist-
journalists around the world. (He was with Jerry Schatzberg at Amiens, and it was
partly thanks to Pierre that I belatedly discovered Schatzberg there.) He is an
indefatigable filmgoer. The next-to-last time I saw him, the Cinematheque was
showing I Wouldn't Be in Your Shoes, a Monogram adaptation of Cornell Woolrich
that hadn't been shown since its first release. The film was terrible, but Pierre was
there to check it out.
I haven't seen Cinq et la peau, but it is praised to the sky in Michel Mourlet's Le
Langage de la mise-en-scene, the Bible of MacMahonian thought.
25292
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:41pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] cellar47
--- Fred Camper wrote:
> Well, I vehemently disagree. The notion that
> Fassbinder is "more
> talented" than Sirk seems about as ridiculous to me
> as the proposition
> that Speilberg is "more talented" than Hawks or
> Hitchcock.
>
The Sirk-Fassbinder connection arises obviously
because of RWF's stated indebtedness to Sirk coming
ariveing simultaneously with the Great Sirk Revival of
the 1970's When Sarris wrote "The American Cinema" al
the talk in the rest of the critical community was of
Hitchcock and Hawks. it took years for serious
discussion of Tashlin and Jerry Lewis to take shape.
Nowadays everybody talks about Sirk. But it's unfair
to compare him with Fassbinder in that thet they
worked in different eras under different
circumstances.
It's apples and oranges, really.
> Fassbinder's films are nice humanist melodramas with
> some stylish
> touches borrowed from Sirk.
They're savage denunciations of his parent's aritistic
pretensions. They're a cri de coeur from a man who
spent his entire life trying to feel forsomeone other
than himself -- and failing again and again and again.
>
> I might extend the comparison to Haynes's "Far From
> Heaven," which I
> rather liked. In the Haynes, the characters can't be
> happy because of
> local conditions, racism or homophobia. In Sirk,
> characters can't be
> happy because of the state of the universe.
>
I wouldn't say "local." Todd resituates the Sirkian
world historically. Sirk made contemporary films.
Todd's is a period piece about the Sirkian world --
making its subtext a primary text. Sirks confrontation
with racism in "Imitation of Life" becomes a desire
for what would have been caled "race-mixing" in
thattime. Likewise Rock Hudson's off-screen gayness
becomes a major on-screen plot element.
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25293
From: Fred Camper
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] fredcamper
David,
I believe I agree with just about all of your comments.
Keep in mind that I was only replying to two members who stated that
Fassbinder was "more talented" than Sirk -- one who said that, another
who agreed. People can have any opinion they want about filmmakers, and
others of us can disagree.
I think you're right in your description of "Far From Heaven." I guess
"historical" seems more "local" to me that Sirk's more philosophical
queries. If I felt the "historical" aspects of "Far From Heaven"
approached the level of generality with which Rossellini used his zoom
to "think" about history, that would be something else.
As for who gets most of the attention, while google may be an imprecise
measure, it does yield 282,000 hits for "Fassbinder" and "film," and
only 69,000 for "Sirk" and "film." This confirms my impression that
Fassbinder is still taken more seriously by more people.
Fred Camper
25294
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Brian Charles Dauth wrote:
>
> > Somemight say that the more talented filmmaker was
> > ranked above the less talented one.
>
> Well, I vehemently disagree. The notion that Fassbinder is "more
> talented" than Sirk seems about as ridiculous to me as the
proposition
> that Speilberg is "more talented" than Hawks or Hitchcock.
>
> Wait. Let's get rid of the "talented" concept, which doesn't
really mean
> anything, and talk about the films.
It's fine to say this, Fred, but may I point out that the articulate
things you go on to say "talk about the films" in specifics only in
relation to Sirk, while Fassbinder is dismissed with the kiss off of
the next few lines and gets no specific consideration. I happen to
like both directors--they both made my top 25 in recent poll here,
though Sirk is higher. Fassbinder would have been the first to
acknowledge that he owed something to Sirk, but the description of
his films below does not acknowledge that that they have a range
beyond "nice humanist melodramas" and that more than a few of his
stylish touches do not derive from Sirk. Sirk in fact seems to have
thought Fassbinder had gone way beyond him, though Fassbinder would
never have agreed with that I'm sure.
>
> Fassbinder's films are nice humanist melodramas with some stylish
> touches borrowed from Sirk. You may like them, or not, depending
on your
> appetite for interesting stories stylishly told that amount to no
more.
> (My appetite for that sort of thing is about zero).
>
> Sirk's films are profound essays in the impossibility of human
> understanding. The perceptual paradoxes he sets up don't stem from
the
> individual characters, though they usually connect with them, but
go to
> the very nature of human existence. > Sirk's meditation on human
perception and human possibility and
> impossibility place him in a league with Brakhage, and Cézanne.
>
> I might extend the comparison to Haynes's "Far From Heaven," which
I
> rather liked. In the Haynes, the characters can't be happy because
of
> local conditions, racism or homophobia. In Sirk, characters can't
be
> happy because of the state of the universe.
>
Your dismissal of Fassbinder really grated on me here, because of
the two other directors beside Sirk under discussion it is surely
Haynes who could only claim a "nice humanistic melodrama" with
some "stylish touches borrowed from Sirk." I wouldn't give it that
much. "Far from Heaven" shows you can watch "All That Heaven
Allows" a hundred times and copy slavishly in much of the film (and
even have a character say something like "Can we ever know more than
the surface of things?" as if he has just read an essay on Sirk),
yet still not turn out anything but a hollow copy, taken to heart by
some critics for what I hope you'd agree are the most superficial
reasons--the fashionable additions of racisim and homophobia which
played no part in the original. By contrast, Fassbinder's "Ali:
Fear Eats the Soul" (the first Fassbinder I saw, by the way) rings a
beautiful variation, entirely personal in style compared to Haynes,
which shows both depth and wit as R W makes the material his own.
He even manages a hilarious homage to the famous TV scene, and this
was something that Haynes didn't even attempt, thank God.
Fassbinder created his own world, which it is stimulating to compare
to Sirk's, while Haynes is purely pretty but empty. And yes, I did
check out at least a part of that film again and it seemed even
worse, in fact.
> I don't know the reasons behind these latest "opinions without
backup,"
> but I have to say that the mode of of defending a film in which
the
> style is seen as simply an effective vehicle for conveying
character
> emotion, which is perhaps the most common mode among auteurists
and
> which I certainly do plenty of, has, if it's the only defense, has
> nearly zero correlation with my idea of what makes a film a work
of art.
A Sirk/Fassbinder discussion is worth having (without bringing in
Haynes, in my opinion). And I don't doubt you could contribute a
lot to it, Fred. But in this post "opinions without backup" seems
only to apply to Fassbinder.
25295
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] sallitt1
> Fassbinder's films are nice humanist melodramas with some stylish
> touches borrowed from Sirk. You may like them, or not, depending on your
> appetite for interesting stories stylishly told that amount to no more.
Like them or not, I wouldn't call them humanist. (And certainly not
nice.) People, or their wreckage, are left behind by Fassbinder's camera.
He's sort of a metaphysician who nonetheless creates a world without
meaning. A weird contradiction, but not humanism as I understand the
word.
Your lack of interest in Fassbinder's form has always puzzled me, but
these things are of course hard to pin down. - Dan
25296
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Dissing Todd[Was: Fassbinder/Sirk] cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
> Your dismissal of Fassbinder really grated on me
> here, because of
> the two other directors beside Sirk under discussion
> it is surely
> Haynes who could only claim a "nice humanistic
> melodrama" with
> some "stylish touches borrowed from Sirk." I
> wouldn't give it that
> much. "Far from Heaven" shows you can watch "All
> That Heaven
> Allows" a hundred times and copy slavishly in much
> of the film (and
> even have a character say something like "Can we
> ever know more than
> the surface of things?" as if he has just read an
> essay on Sirk),
> yet still not turn out anything but a hollow copy,
> taken to heart by
> some critics for what I hope you'd agree are the
> most superficial
> reasons--the fashionable additions of racisim and
> homophobia which
> played no part in the original.
Well your dismissal of Todd really grates. Racism and
homophobia aren't "fashionable" -- they're historical
realities. Indeed the fact that they're discussed so
freely these days testifies to their pivotal
socio-political import. They can't be avoided or
glossed over. And this is where Todd comes in,
revisitng Sirk's world THROUGH its glossiness.
By contrast,
> Fassbinder's "Ali:
> Fear Eats the Soul" (the first Fassbinder I saw, by
> the way) rings a
> beautiful variation, entirely personal in style
> compared to Haynes,
> which shows both depth and wit as R W makes the
> material his own.
You think it's impersonal? HAH! Todd broke up with
James Lyons -- his collaborator, editor and sometime
acting star (eg."Poison") after having been together
since the dawn of time. He said "Iflew to
hawaii,finished Proust and wrote 'Far From Heaven.' "
Created with Julianne Morre specifically in mind it
just flowed right out of him. This is in sharp
contrast to the years spent on "Velvet Goldmine."
And I'm sure you're aware of Fassinder's history with
the psychotic El Hedi Ben Salem.
> He even manages a hilarious homage to the famous TV
> scene, and this
> was something that Haynes didn't even attempt, thank
> God.
As you should recall, "Magnatech" -- the Firm Dennis
Quaid works for -- is a television manufacturing
company.
> Fassbinder created his own world, which it is
> stimulating to compare
> to Sirk's, while Haynes is purely pretty but empty.
See also Richard Hamilton's paintings based on Sirk's
"Shockproof." Todd certainly did!
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25297
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:24pm
Subject: Fassbinder/Sirk joe_mcelhaney
Like Blake, I have a high regard for both Sirk and Fassbinder and I
personally feel that Fassbinder is one of the greatest of all
filmmakers. But to say that his films consist of nice Sirkian touches
but little else is far too casual. Fassbinder, as Dan correctly notes,
was not a humanist. Rather, he took upon himself the task of nothing
less than an attempt to testify to the state of post-war German
culture. This is most explicit in the trilogy of "Maria
Braun," "Lola," and "Veronika Voss" but it also present throughout his
body of work in which the films repeatedly and implicitly ask: How did
Germany get to this place in history? Time and again in Fassbinder we
see how the behavior of his (usually middle-class) characters is shaped
by the forces of this history and this culture. One may dislike the
films for how they articulate this, one may quarrel with Fassbinder's
stylistic choices or with the ideology of the films. But if one is to
criticize them, one must at least understand the most basic level at
which they operate.
25298
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Fassbinder/Sirk [Was The Film Journal: A New Issue and a New Direction] sallitt1
> As for who gets most of the attention, while google may be an imprecise
> measure, it does yield 282,000 hits for "Fassbinder" and "film," and
> only 69,000 for "Sirk" and "film." This confirms my impression that
> Fassbinder is still taken more seriously by more people.
In the 2002 Sight and Sound polls, 5 critics and 5 filmmakers voted for
Fassbinder films, whereas 4 critics and 3 filmmakers voted for Sirk films.
- Dan
25299
From: "Matt Armstrong"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:42pm
Subject: Sin City matt_c_armst...
Saw this the other night and had a very strong negative reaction. I'm
sure my political sensibilities got in the way of my appreciation, but
even on its own terms, the movie is a failure. I posted a review here:
http://democracysblooperreel.typepad.com/democracys_blooper_reel/2005/0
4/the_tortured_ch.html
25300
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:45pm
Subject: Re: All That Gayness Allows (Was:Fassbinder/Sirk) lukethedealer12
>
>
Likewise Rock Hudson's off-screen gayness
> becomes a major on-screen plot element.
>
God, I wish you had not said this, David. Now that you say it I
have no doubt Haynes did intend this exactly as you say. It only
makes the film more trivial, not to say reprehensible.
Yes, Rock Hudson was gay. So are a lot of actors, and a lot of them
are straight also. They are supposed to be able to play different
roles of either sexual persuasion regardless of this.
In spite of that fact, a film was made a few years ago based on the
thesis that all of Rock Hudson's roles revealed that he was gay, and
that this is what you see in his performances. I'm guessing you
probably support that view.
What does that say about him as an actor? Would you say a straight
actor playing a gay man reveals that he is straight (say Dennis
Quaid in Far from Heaven)? Why have them even try to play the
role? What an insult this kind of thinking is.
This is not to argue the formal accomplishment of "All That Heaven
Allows" (which goes far beyond Hudson's screen persona, of course
--his presence and performance are only one artistic element), now
being argued in relation to Fassbinder and Haynes in other posts,
including one I already sent. But may I be so bold as to suggest
that Rock Hudson was unusually persuasive playing attractive
heterosexual leading man roles (and hasn't been given enough credit
for this). Especially in "All That Heaven Allows" and other Sirk
movies. If you doubt it, ask my wife or any woman. Or just ask me,
because I'm straight and always believe him in these roles.
His gayness was his business and like many other people you love to
discuss in some of your "gayer than thou" posts, it seems like he
preferred to keep it this way. And if you do really think it's
relevant in his performances (especially in this particular Sirk
movie) than may I suggest you are totally trashing his ability as an
actor, as the appearance of gayness in this character could only
undermine the movie.
Blake Lucas
>
>
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