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26301
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:49am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) cinebklyn
Craig writes:
> This is quite a class/ethnic/race/gender-based
cross you're bearing! But don't hoist it on my
shoulders, Jack -- I ain't carryin'.
Everyone carries it. It is part of being a human
being. And why is it a cross?
> The vague, stock-phrased, robotic ideology
you're erecting against my small attempt at
articulating A Certain Aesthetic
Well, if I knew your particulars it would be less vague,
but your aesthetic is in part shaped by your class, race,
ethnicity and gender. In fact, your small attempt to
articulate A Certain Aesthtic bespeaks a certain class
membership in and of itself. Where I am in Brooklyn,
the small attempts are to make rent, pay the cable bill
and find out what the second number is.
> is the same stuff that/ has turned the Cornell English
Department, in the last decade, into a moribund institution
within an institution.
"I wish I'd gone to Radcliffe too but Father wouldn't hear
of it -- he needed my help behind the notions counter."
> Cornell being, by the by, my alma mater (as you no doubt read
in a post I made yesterday or the day before, hence your singling
out of Nabokov's professorship and involvement in a
"class-educational complex," as a further little snip at my liver)
Actually I didn't. I just picked on Nabakov because I find him
to be one of the best examples of consumerist/elitist trend in
20th century art.
> If you have any thoughts on 'Twentynine Palms,' I,
and I'm sure everyone else too, would be happy to hear
them.
I would have to see it again. I loved his first two movies,
but this one left me cold. This one felt less grounded
in a lived-in reality, more of an exercise in style.
Brian
26302
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:50am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) cinebklyn
Mike writes:
> As a card-carrying bourgeois liberal (gasp!), I have
been trained to find these not too interesting...
So have many people. The question is: can you
move beyond your training and see art from a new
set of paradigms or do you pursue critiques that
support and echo the teachings and discourses of
the dominant society.
Brian
26303
From: Adam Lemke
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch moviemiser412
David,
The boots from that site are for the most part, rather poor, however a
few decent copies do exist (like the Watkins title Jonathan mentions). My
main concern when ordering from 5MinutestoLive is that their Quality ratings
are not to be trusted. Samuel Fuller¹s ³White Dog² for instance receives an
³A rating² for image quality, but in my opinion the disc is borderline
unwatchable.
SuperHappyFun.com seems to be more reliable and they have a TON of Watkins
stuff.
If you go to their password protected offers, type in my email address
³aplemke@...² and enter ³privilege² for the password, you will see
what I mean.
Here is another rare movie site that I have recently fallen in love with...
Some real treasures by Karlson, Siegel, Boetticher, Endfield, Walsh, and
Fuller.
http://www.noirfilm.com/haves_page.htm
Best,
Adam
On 5/1/05 7:59 PM, "David Ehrenstein" wrote:
> Wow, that site has quite a lot of interesting stuff:
>
> "Mister Freedom"
>
> "Qui Etes-Vous Polly Magoo?"
>
> "Anna"
>
> "(These Are) The Damend"
>
> "The Trial of Joan of Arc"
>
> "Donald Cammell: The Ultimate Performance"
>
> What say you as to quality overall?
>
> And Bill, did your copy of "Anna" come from this
> place?
> --- Jonathan Rosenbaum
> wrote:
>> > You can get a pretty good bootleg of it for $20 from
>> >
>> > www.5minutestolive.com.
>> >
>> > The one I long for on DVD is
>>> > > "Privilege."
>>> > >
>>> > > Timlier than ever.
>>> > >
>>> > > __________________________________________________
>>> > > Do You Yahoo!?
>>> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> > protection around
>>> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> * a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26304
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:18am
Subject: Re: Twentynine palms too many jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller
wrote:
>
> On Sunday, May 1, 2005, at 10:41 AM, jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > I agree. But one might also argue that the rejection of
> > traditional psychology is more apparent than real in many cases,
and
> > in this case particularly. What Dumont is doing is witholding
> > information, depriving us of background, backstory. Fine. But
it's
> > still "psychology" by the mere fact that we have two characters
> > alone together who "relate" constantly, although not primarily
in a
> > verbal manner (this is definitely not "Before Sunset"!) One
example:
> > she asks "What are you thinking about?" (a typically annoying
> > question). He answers nicely: "Nothing." She insists. She
> > says: "It's not true." He continues saying he isn't thinking
about
> > anything, still nice and very patient. Then he adds, with an
almost
> > imperceptible hint of annoyance, "I'm driving." And she bursts
into
> > tears.
> > Isn't that all traditional "psychology", seizing on a tiny,
> > insignificant exchange to reveal the tension between the two, the
> > girl's rather unstable state of mind?
>
> This scene was superb, a rhythm of relation that we don't see much
in
> the movies, but quite plausible and spot-on. Although it's not
exactly
> similar, these interchanges between the couple (not to mention her
fit
> in the diner, their conversation over ice cream) are what made me
think
> of 'Scenes from a Marriage.'
>
So you are responding to the scene in "this sounds so real and
convincing" terms (and I can understand it -- I have had moments
like this in my life so I can identify) but we are firmly rooted in
psychological terrain.
> > Because the characters don't
> > conduct a Proustian analysis of their emotions and feelings
doesn't
> > mean that this is not, among other things, a "psychological
study"
> > of an insecure, somewhat neurotic young woman. Thanks to the
> > providential language barrier, the psychology has to remain
> > expressed in mostly behavioral terms (of course an actual
language
> > barrier is not indispensible -- we have all experienced moments
of
> > tension with another person when verbal communication became
> > impossible although we "spoke the same language" -- but in this
case
> > it helps the director's strategy).
> >
> > Dumont has said that he chose the two actors because they were
close
> > to the characters, especially Katia ("I felt she was very close
to
> > the character: a very complex, troubled being. She had shared
with
> > me her immense difficulty of existing.") He said that when she
> > starts crying in the scene I mentioned above it wasn't in the
> > script.
>
> I'd also heard or read (maybe on the DVD?) that she was very
defiant
> on-set, and toward Dumont. It sounds like the character and the
> actress herself weren't too divergent from one another,
emotionally.
Dumont says that they were very much alike. Which i think is
irrelevant. If it's true, then instead of not liking the character
I also don't like the actress. Which is itself irrelevant... Dumont
also said that the two (David and Katia) disliked each other
intensely and that served his purpose. Fine. great art born out of
widespread universal hatred.
> > My problem is that I DO mind. And that it doesn't feel all
right
> > to me. There is no "real-world logic" of the situation. The
ending
> > is daring allright (and I quite admire the concept of that final
> > long take) but is daring a sufficient excuse for throwing all
> > narrative coherence overboard? I envy your lack of curiosity when
> > saying: "Never even mind what happens next."
>
> I should really clarify here: I didn't mean "never even mind what
> happens next" in the sense that it was inconsequential to the film
or
> an understanding of the film. (Far from it!) I only meant to
isolate
> in my example the scenes that come before the "what happens next,"
to
> point out that even if we didn't take into account the explosion
of the
> bathroom door and everything that follows, that the way the
narrative
> plays out and gets paced-out directly following the rape is itself
> quite radical... if not quite logical.
I don't see being "quite radical" as something automatically
praiseworthy. Nothing is easier than to be "radical".
> > I for one would like to
> > know, and no explanation makes any sense "in real world logic."
This
> > is why I said that the film deliberately self-destructs in the
end.
> > This ending is like the mysterious opening of the pantry door
> > in "The Shining" but although Dumont wanted to inject
a "fantastic"
> > feeling in his movie, we don't seem to be in the right genre for
> > this kind of thing (OK, mixing genres can be fun, but here the
mix
> > doesn't take). After all, if we are to accept the fact that we
have
> > entered the realm of the irrational, the entire attack/rape
episode
> > can be seen as belonging to the same realm: a dream, a fantasy, a
> > metaphor, whatever -- except something "real".
>
> I have to spend some time reflecting a little more upon your
impression
> that what happens embodies a conscious "self-destruction" (and
maybe
> not only on the part of the film itself, but David too).
As far as Dumont is concerned, I can't tell what he had in mind.
His "explanations" sound terribly weak and contrived to me. Saying
that he wanted to make a violent movie like the things he sees on
American TV (I'm quoting form a POSITIF interview). To me the self-
destructiveness may or may not be intentional -- I don't really
care. I still see the movie as a king of Tingely machine ( although
devoid of the sense of fun in Tingely's machines). As far as David:
he is a cipher, I don't think we have a right to endow him with
intentions (even subconscious) of self-destruction. And please let's
refrain from always blaming the victim. Even though from the very
beginning of the film you get the feeling that he is somehow "asking
for it" (whatever "it" is -- and it will end up by being raped).
It's amazing, for instance, that he always asks the girl to drive in
the most difficult terrain although she obviously is unfamiliar with
both the kind of vehicule and the kind of road (she doesn't even
know where the brake and accelerator are. Can she drive at all? Why
is he making her drive and risk an accident then?") Then he gets
upset because the truck gets a little scratched. Give me a break!
Yes, this seems to herald getting fucked in the ass by some
hoodlums... Actually, everything in that film is "ominous" and
somehow herlads something terrible to happen. But, I would argue, in
a fairly arbitrary and artificial kind of way.
I'll have to come back to the rest of your post later. But this
has been a stimulating ecxchange (I think we've put everybody else
to sleep). JPC.
[An
> interesting formal aspect of the endgame: we move from close-up
(the
> burst-out), to long-shot (the murder), to extreme long-shot (the
body
> in the desert).] Although I'm not quite sure I see the ending as
a
> sudden "fantastic" opening-up (or going off the rails, as some
might
> say), I did have the sense that there was something "magickal"
> happening all throughout -- the surveillance art-film the couple
watch
> on the television, the headlights of the car that pass by after
Katia
> storms out of the motel room -- these scenes struck me as
foreshadowing
> the climax (possibly explicitly so, with regard to the speeding
car and
> its headlights: they may very well belong -- or just as well may
not
> belong -- to the same marauders of the rape) -- not only because
these
> scenes and their surrounding atmosphere built up some kind of
chilly
> tone, but because they exemplified a "feeling" around the western
> expanses and desert towns of the United States -- un milieu
maudit --
> and the way this particular atmosphere of dread figures into (one
can
> say makes up a large portion of) the modern American mythscape.
The
> mythscape of 'America's Most Wanted,' gang murders, people missing
in
> the desert, drifters on bordertowns and killings in their wake,
pet
> mutilations, fluorescent-lit convenient store massacres caught on
> blurry monochrome video shot from a high fixed angle -- and the
> fear-mongering that the media perpetrates as it presents -- and
creates
> -- this myth. The characters' entrance into this world, their
> conscious need to explore/create it, is, I believe, in some part
what
> "creates" their bloody end -- they are responsible for their own
tragic
> conclusion -- such an impression probably wouldn't make it into a
> critical anthology, but I'll say it anyway: There's bad mojo
around
> these myths, around this milieu, and if you believe in it, and set
out
> to play with it, it will surround you and it will kill you. I'm
not
> doing a good job of articulating it -- to make a movie about this
> feeling would be better (it's probably too messy to be called an
Idea),
> and I think that's what Dumont has done. It reminds me of what
Stewart
> does in 'Rear Window' -- creating the murder by "willing it" into
> existence.
>
> > I completely agree with both Nabokov and you, but I
consider
> > 29 Palms a very theoretical kind of "experiment" (Dumont's word)
and
> > I received it, unlike you, as a case of "narrativizing a thesis"
> > (although "thesis" might be the improper term) -- which accounts
for
> > my limited Pleasure in viewing it. JPC
>
> I can dig it.
>
> craig.
26305
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:27am
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch cellar47
Thanks!
--- Adam Lemke wrote:
> David,
> The boots from that site are for the most part,
> rather poor, however a
> few decent copies do exist (like the Watkins title
> Jonathan mentions). My
> main concern when ordering from 5MinutestoLive is
> that their Quality ratings
> are not to be trusted. Samuel Fuller¹s ³White Dog²
> for instance receives an
> ³A rating² for image quality, but in my opinion the
> disc is borderline
> unwatchable.
>
> SuperHappyFun.com seems to be more reliable and they
> have a TON of Watkins
> stuff.
>
> If you go to their password protected offers, type
> in my email address
> ³aplemke@...² and enter ³privilege² for the
> password, you will see
> what I mean.
>
> Here is another rare movie site that I have recently
> fallen in love with...
> Some real treasures by Karlson, Siegel, Boetticher,
> Endfield, Walsh, and
> Fuller.
> http://www.noirfilm.com/haves_page.htm
>
> Best,
> Adam
>
> On 5/1/05 7:59 PM, "David Ehrenstein"
> wrote:
>
> > Wow, that site has quite a lot of interesting
> stuff:
> >
> > "Mister Freedom"
> >
> > "Qui Etes-Vous Polly Magoo?"
> >
> > "Anna"
> >
> > "(These Are) The Damend"
> >
> > "The Trial of Joan of Arc"
> >
> > "Donald Cammell: The Ultimate Performance"
> >
> > What say you as to quality overall?
> >
> > And Bill, did your copy of "Anna" come from this
> > place?
> > --- Jonathan Rosenbaum
> > wrote:
> >> > You can get a pretty good bootleg of it for $20
> from
> >> >
> >> > www.5minutestolive.com.
> >> >
> >> > The one I long for on DVD is
> >>> > > "Privilege."
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Timlier than ever.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> __________________________________________________
> >>> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> >>> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best
> spam
> >> > protection around
> >>> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
> > *
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> > * a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
>
<mailto:a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> > *
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26306
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:34am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Well, if I knew your particulars it would be less vague,
> but your aesthetic is in part shaped by your class, race,
> ethnicity and gender. In fact, your small attempt to
> articulate A Certain Aesthtic bespeaks a certain class
> membership in and of itself. Where I am in Brooklyn,
> the small attempts are to make rent, pay the cable bill
> and find out what the second number is.
>
Isn't it wonderful that class struggle is still alive and well?
And struggling Brian in Brooklyn, struggling to make rent (but still
able to pay the cable bill) can scorn others for their imagined
bourgeois privileges and aesthetics.
I know I should refrain from this sort of sarcasm, it's
inflamatory, but I really don't think Brian's kind of tirade has a
place in a Group like this one.
By the way, what does "find out what the second number is" mean?
I'm probably not working class enough to know (even though I'm as
broke as the next guy, possibly more).
JPC
26307
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:41am
Subject: Re: The Bride Wore Black hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Aaron Graham wrote:
>
> >
> > I read an interview with Tarantino where this film
> > was brought up. He
> > claimed to not have seen it,
>
> I have no doubt that he was lying.
You hate real good, David.
I think De Palma was influenced by Truffaut's Hitchcock pastiches to do
his own, particularly by The Bride Wore Black, which has a Herrmman
score. Watching the beginning - well-filmed, but not studio-slick, w.
Herrmann's music - I was struck by the way it anticipates De Palma's
knockoffs, while of course being much better. A friend was in a
screening of a new Truffaut with De Palma in NY - afterward De Palma
stood up and announced that he was a better director than Truffaut OR
Hitchcock. Oh well, he's done a few good ones....
26308
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:44am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
> > But essay films are hard to do. Welles blew it in F for Fake (a
> > failure, despite brilliant passages)
>
> Some incredible tricks in there, tho.
Welles' failed experiments contain enough brilliant successes to fuel
thirty other filmmakers' careers. I gave my copy of F to Fred Baker,
who does essay films, to study if he wants to see how high the bar is
set.
26309
From: samadams@...
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:44am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch arglebargle31
Bringing Watkins and Marker together, the passage that most struck me
on my recent (4th or so) viewing of Sans Soleil was: "I met peasants
there who had come to know themselves through the struggle.
Concretely it had failed. At the same time, all they had won in their
understanding of the world could have been won only through the
struggle."
Marker and Watkins' "failure" is nothing of the sort -- it's how
deeply you affect the people who see your work, not how many see it.
I'm certainly glad Moore's on my team, but can anyone imagine
watching F 9/11 more than twice? It's all on the surface, impossible
to miss, as intended. If anyone is to be judged for not changing the
world, who explicitly said he would consider F 9/11 a failure if
George W Bush was re-elected. Historical memory's a bitch.
Sam
At 10:31 PM +0000 5/1/05, a_film_by@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>His Munch film is atypical. What he's been trying to
>do in recent years with "The Journey" and more
>recently "The Commune" is make films that aren't
>passive "consumption" experieces ut sites of activism.
>Not surprised he's not on video. Not surprised he ha't
>been successful in this anarcho-syndicalist quest
>either, as he (like Moore) just ne man and the system
>he's fighting against is vast and all-encompassing.
>
>You have the soul of a hall monitor!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26310
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:47am
Subject: Re: Twentynine palms too many hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> > The Bride Wore Black, incidentally, was remade by Lino Brocka as
> Angela Markado, a nice little noir
Attributed to Woolrich? It's quite possible that the author of the book
Tarantino adapted had read the novel...unless of course it was written
in the 14th century!
26311
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:51am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Oh boy, now you're really ripped it! "F For Fake" is
> Welles' greatest achievement. It is the supreme
> film-essay, exloding the entire notion of personality
> (Hughes, Irving, Welles, Reichenbach, Picasso, Elmyr,
> even Oja) In the process it also explodes the "real."
Agreed, but I find Welles' narration coy and irritating, and a lot of
the Oja stuff looks like a Playboy video. The ending, which is her
story (Picasso), saves the film, and the riffs on Hughes and Elmyr are
great.
26312
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:02am
Subject: Re: F 9/11 (was re: Godard the Grouch) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> >
> > Corn is a CIA asset.
>
> Do tell!!
>
> I've had my suspicions about him for some time, due to
> personal contact over several stories I was writing.
> He proved consistently unhelpful. Willfully "blind"
> when it came to the crunch on unnamed sourcing and
> male prostitution.
I'm just guessing, but it's been suggested by others. It's odd when
you see the Washington editor of The Nation writing attacks on a
troublesome 9/11 conspiracy theorist in free papers around the
country, mixing lies with facts and quoting private sources in the
LAPD, or attacking Brent Scowcroft on some esoteric infraction of
intelligence law a few days after Scowcroft comes out against the
invasion of Iraq. Then during the period when Tenet was waging
clandestine war against the White House, he suddenly spun around and
became way more anti-Bush than he had been, writing that book.
Hey, some of my best friends are CIA assets! There was a time in the
70s when you couldn't walk ten feet without bumping into one. They've
given us our money's worth at least once: they got rid of the Nixon
Gang (Mort Sahl: "Richard Nixon is the second US President
assassinated by the CIA"), and I'd say they tried hard to repeat the
favor with the Bushistas, but they were outplayed this time.
I can't wait for Vol. 2 of Harlot's Ghost - I hope Mailer has time to
write it before he leaves us. Maybe it'll make up for Oswald's Tale.
26313
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:04am
Subject: Re: Thanks for that image (Was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > Hope you get to see some Guru Dutt. Imagine von Sternberg with songs
> > and dances, starring von Sternberg.
>
> You know, Bill, that doesn't sound good at all.... - Dan
Shave off the moustache, put him in a corset and a top-hat....
26314
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:25am
Subject: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) cinebklyn
hl666 writes:
> One gesture in that direction would be to point to
Gilles Deleuze and Stanley Cavell, two professional
philosophers who have writen about films - but not
ALL films, or all good ones, by any means - as a
form of thought, or even philosophical thought.
What Deleuze and Cavell realize is that film provides
more than just sensory, aesthetic pleasure. There
are reductionists who want to diminish films to mere
aesthetic experiences, but that urge should be resisted.
For one example: in writing about "His Girl Friday,"
Cavell goes from an analysis of the film to:
"A democracy must not contain a separate, privileged
class to guard the city; for each member of the
democratic city, it is his or hers to guard. Those who
consider themselves a class of guardians, privileged to
take the lead, will not recognize the good which should
reign over the common life, but will, pursuing the only
good they know, and in ignorance of the very concept
of the common good, put their own stamp of private
power on the city."
For me, the Something Else is that ability certain films have
to propel me toward a deeper understanding of and
engagement with the world in which I live and act.
Brian
26315
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:35am
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
the process it also explodes the
> "real."
>
> Agreed, but I find Welles' narration coy and
> irritating, and a lot of
> the Oja stuff looks like a Playboy video. The
> ending, which is her
> story (Picasso), saves the film, and the riffs on
> Hughes and Elmyr are
> great.
>
>
And as you know it's the first cousin of the greatest
film ever made.
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26316
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:39am
Subject: Re: Re: F 9/11 (was re: Godard the Grouch) cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> I'm just guessing, but it's been suggested by
> others.
Oh it makes perfect sense. He refused to discuss
things I know he knows with me. And I'm sure you're
aware of what happens to anyone who rtreats me like an
idiot.
Corn's a ig Judy Miller defender too. And it's pretty
damned clear by now that she's a double agent.
Perhaps even triple -- as in Rohmer.
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26317
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:40am
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks for that image (Was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt
> wrote:
> > > Hope you get to see some Guru Dutt. Imagine von
> Sternberg with songs
> > > and dances, starring von Sternberg.
> >
> > You know, Bill, that doesn't sound good at all....
> - Dan
>
> Shave off the moustache, put him in a corset and a
> top-hat....
>
And then have him remake the "Hot Vodoo" number from
"Blonde Venus."
>
>
>
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26318
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:45am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
"Nabakov himself was a professor of Cornell, so he was
very involved in this class-educational complex. He laced
his novels with this wordplay so that the readers who
'got it' would be reinforced in their notion of intellectual
privilege."
His professorship at Cornell was his day job for that period of his
life, and his involvement the class-eucational complex was not of long
duration. I'm inclined to take Nabby at his word when he says that the
word play came about because English was his second language and as
such it was fun for him as a writer working in a foreign tongue to play
with words in and of itself; he was not pandering to intellectual
privilege here.
As a one time teacher of English as a second language I can testify
that many second language learners love word play without regard to
flattering their teachers. These folks were low-level service
employees who happened to connect with language. They came from a
highly literate culture (Japan) which has always valued puns and pivot
words without regard to intellectual privilege, though I suppose their
cultural heritage makes them privileged relative to many other nations
(including the United States.)
Richard
26319
From: "Hadrian"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:51am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch habelove
> > main concern when ordering from 5MinutestoLive is
> > that their Quality ratings
> > are not to be trusted. Samuel Fuller¹s ³White Dog²
> > for instance receives an
> > ³A rating² for image quality, but in my opinion the
> > disc is borderline
> > unwatchable.
> >
> > SuperHappyFun.com seems to be more reliable and they
> > have a TON of Watkins
> > stuff.
Superhappyfun is definitely more reliable, and regularly upgrades their material in a
constant search for quality. They are also the most omniverous --that said, the best
quality on the William Klein titles is www.pimpadelicwonderland.com , which is where
superhappyfun, and 5minutestolive got there's. He breaks a lot of the rarest stuff, but
is very narrow in focus, assuming he's even still in the operation. He does it for fun,
makes very little money, and is kind of scared cause of the latest batch of copyright
laws.
5minutestolive never found anything, he just boots other booters. THe only thing I
can say for them, is they make nice covers, which is helpful if your getting them for
your video store. Since the guy used to manage a video store, I'm sure he's savvy to
that.
Superhappyfun boy is Mike White I believe, formerly of Film Threat, and presently of
Cashiers Du Cinemart.
Some other booters off the top of my head that deal with the public:
VSOM. They're the least scrupulous, and there are many reasons to avoid them --
unfortunately, they have the largest selection, and get it to you fast. Worth looking
at, but always try and get something somewhere else.
Luminous www.lfvw.com --I used to hate the slow service back in the VHS days, and
prefer Craig at Eurotrash for quality anyways, but with the new wave of DVD-R
booting, they've really risen to the challenge. I hear this guy goes to Europe and buys
3/4 inches and shit. Some of his quality is amazing, and though he might be a bit
exploitive for your tastes, I'm sure you'll find a couple gems. I recently ordered Marco
Ferreri's "The Last Woman" from him, a fantastic find.
http://www.moviehunter.tv/ This guy is probably the bets for old Hollywood, but
extremely expensive ($50-60 bucks a shot, I can't remember). Still, if you're doing
research, he's good in a pinch. I've impressed many a customer using this guy.
Me! Feel free to shoot me a line if your looking for something, and I'll see what I can
do. Also, if you have anything rare, I'm always looking..Bill Krohn's contributions to
our humble little video archive have been invaluable, and many of the best things I've
found have been from other film scholars. I recently transferred some 3/4 inches I
was given from the form Z Channel archives of Up THe River and The Plough and the
Stars...
Hadrian
26320
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:58am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
"Isn't it wonderful that class struggle is still alive and well?
And struggling Brian in Brooklyn, struggling to make rent (but still
able to pay the cable bill) can scorn others for their imagined
bourgeois privileges and aesthetics.
"I know I should refrain from this sort of sarcasm, it's
inflamatory, but I really don't think Brian's kind of tirade has a
place in a Group like this one."
After all J-P it was posted on May Day, so maybe we can give it a
pass just this once. Next May Day I look forward to your post of the
lyrics for "The Worker's Flag is Deepest Red" and to David's
answering with "Soladarity Forever."
Richard
26321
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch cellar47
--- Hadrian wrote:
>
> Superhappyfun is definitely more reliable, and
> regularly upgrades their material in a
> constant search for quality. They are also the most
> omniverous --that said, the best
> quality on the William Klein titles is
> www.pimpadelicwonderland.com , which is where
> superhappyfun, and 5minutestolive got there's. He
> breaks a lot of the rarest stuff, but
> is very narrow in focus, assuming he's even still in
> the operation. He does it for fun,
> makes very little money, and is kind of scared cause
> of the latest batch of copyright
> laws.
>
Taht's good to now. On recent trips to Japanese stores
in downtown L.A.my boyfriend scored DVDs of "Muriel"
and "Le Couple Temoin." Japanese subtitles, of course,
but I know French.
I find Klein utterly fascinating.
>
> Me! Feel free to shoot me a line if your looking for
> something, and I'll see what I can
> do.
Basically I'm looking for Klein, Duras, early Garrel
and middle period Rivette. The appearance of a new
print of "La Cicatrice Interieure" -- currently making
the rounds acorss the cournry -- gives me hope. I saw
"Le Lit de la Vierge" and "Les Hautes Solitdes" at
MOMA many years ago and have never forgotten them.
I LONG for "Duelle" and "Noroit" on DVD
And anything by Werner Schroeter, especially "Palermo
oder Wolfsburg"
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26322
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:03am
Subject: Re: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- Richard Modiano wrote:
>
> After all J-P it was posted on May Day, so maybe we
> can give it a
> pass just this once. Next May Day I look forward to
> your post of the
> lyrics for "The Worker's Flag is Deepest Red" and to
> David's
> answering with "Soladarity Forever."
>
Then we can all restage the last reel of "Novocento"
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26323
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:07am
Subject: Reflections in a Golden Eye, & our group (was: Pesky Ideas) fredcamper
Brian Charles Dauth wrote:
> David E writes:
>
>
>>Or dipping the entire finished Technicolor print
>
> of "Reflections in a Golden Eye" in gold dye.
>
> Is that how he was going to achieve the desaturation
> effect? I never knew that. It is a shame that the film
> was never distributed the way Huston intended.
I haven't read all the posts leading up to this, so perhaps I'm missing
something, but "Reflections in a Golden Eye" was most certainly released
in a "golden" print, and the golden look, with hints of pink or other
colors, was achieved not through "gold dye" but through a complicated
manipulation of the Technicolor IB matrices, and the process was written
up in "American Cinematographer" at the time of the film's release.
I saw the film when it was released, and thought it was interesting for
its color effects and "edgy" story but otherwise cinematically
empty-headed. It was my impression that Huston's intent was realized in
the released prints.
Perhaps David was cracking a joke with the "gold dye" reference. People,
PLEASE quit being cute, especially without explaining what you mean! I
didn't spend time and server space archiving our group to archive
ambiguous cute quips whose factual status is ambiguous and which may be
confusing to readers, nor the endless quoting entire of posts with one
line comments (which still continues -- STOP this massive unnecessary
quoting please!), nor the assumptions people make about each other as
viewers that can border on personal insult. I had hoped that the opening
up of the archive would encourage everyone to behave responsibly! It's
all too easy for a group such as this to veer away from discussing
cinema into quips and snipes at each other.
Fred Camper
26324
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:09am
Subject: F for Fake (Was: Godard the Grouch) peter_tonguette
Bill, David,
Bill's long-standing argument that "Filming Othello" (which I also dearly
love) is a better "essay film" than "F for Fake" is indeed persuasive.
Nevertheless, essay film or no essay film, I think "F for Fake" is a masterpiece. But
neither of you have mentioned the sequence which absolutely "makes" the
picture for me: Chartres. Bill, I'd be amazed if you found Welles' narration here
coy or irritating! It's beautiful, as are the stunning images of the
cathedral, shot by Gary Graver without Welles being present but under his specific
directions (this according to Graver's commentary track on Criterion's new DVD of
the film.)
The Chartres sequence is among my favorite "spiritual" moments in cinema and
among my favorite moments in all of Welles. It wasn't until I saw it on film
in a decent print that I felt this way. His precise selection of shots of the
cathedral, and the editing of the shots (including heart-stopping dissolves
and laps), is just... thrilling.
Peter Tonguette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26325
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:15am
Subject: Re: CATCH 22 directed by Richard Quine! peter_tonguette
David,
Did Durgnat ever publish anything on "Strangers When We Meet"? If so, do you
know where it's available?
I like your summary of Nichols very much and am inclined to agree that he
"retreated to a simpler style" following the commercial failures of his last few,
formally ambitious films. You're also right that the Nichols of old does
resurface from time to time in his later works. I may sound nuts, but I think
one "recent" Nichols which contains an interesting mise-en-scene (albeit it also
contains an awful, hugely manipulative script - but we're used to such things
as auteurists) is 1991's "Regarding Henry." Evidently, Gavin Smith wrote
some kind of appreciation of the film in Film Comment, titled "Without Cutaways,"
but I've never been able to find Smith's piece.
Peter Tonguette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26326
From: Samuel Bréan
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:21am
Subject: Reflections in a Golden Eye quimby_the_m...
From: David Ehrenstein
>It was seen that way only in its initial run. Those
>prints haven't been shown publically, as far as I
>know, since 1967 -- adn I have no idea if they exist
>any longer.
The Action cinemas here in Paris re-released a golden print of "Reflections
in a Golden Eye" a few years ago. All prints were allegedly destroyed by
Warner Bros. at the time, following unsuccessful previews. Nonetheless, one
print was shown in Paris, but then destroyed by Warner at the end of its
run. With the help of Michel Ciment and Patrick Brion, the Action cinemas
spent two years reconstructing a print, which is circulating, I think.
More information on this page (in French):
http://www.filmdeculte.com/entretien/causse2.php
Maybe "Positif" had an article on this, Jean-Pierre?
Samuel
26327
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:39am
Subject: Re: Bride Wore Black (was: twentynine palms) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera"
wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> > > The Bride Wore Black, incidentally, was remade by Lino Brocka as
> > Angela Markado, a nice little noir
>
> Attributed to Woolrich?
Took a look. Screenplay by Jose Lacaba, from a "komiks" by Carlos J.
Caparas. No mention of Woolrich, tho it's very possible Caparas simply
lifted the storyline when he saw Truffaut's film.
(footnote: Caparas went on to become a filmmaker of no real
distinction, except he hit a goldmine with "The Vizconde Massacre,"
starring President Corazon Aquino's daughter Kris, and went on to make
a series of "massacre films;" Kris Aquino starred in enough of these
to be dubbed "massacre queen." Last I heard, the ex-president's
daughter became involved in breaking up the marriage of Brocka protege
Philip Salvador (kind of a full circle, there), then went on to be
involved in an affair with Pasay City mayor Joey Marquez. THEIR
eventual breakup was especially acrimonious, with public discussions
of Mayor Marquez beating her and giving her a sexually transmitted
disease. This is starting to sound a bit more entertaining than The
Bride Wore Black).
It's quite possible that the author of the book
> Tarantino adapted had read the novel...unless of course it was
written
> in the 14th century!
Don't quite get you there--are you saying Tarantino adapted "Kill
Bill" from Woolrich? I would have thought he simply saw the film.
26328
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:11am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch dreyertati
>
> Here is another rare movie site that I have recently fallen in love
with...
> Some real treasures by Karlson, Siegel, Boetticher, Endfield, Walsh,
and
> Fuller.
> http://www.noirfilm.com/haves_page.htm
>
> Best,
> Adam
Wow, what a find!!!
Many thanks,
Jonathan
26329
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:45am
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Dan writes:
>
> For me, Hitchcock engineers the rupture because he is
> going against filmic conventions and audience
> expectations. Films that center on heterosexual men are
> most often concerned with the laying out of a task and the
> pursuit of its accomplishment. Hitchcock ruptures the conventional
> narrative to grant Devlin the emotional complexity usually
> accorded only to women.
>
Selznick was furious because he didn't understand Devlin and thought
neither Hitchcock nor Hecht did either. I've attributed a reading of
Dev to Hecht in Hitchcock at Work - basically the same one that is
spelled out in Hitchcock's Bi-Textuality - but he is definitely the
mystery at the center of the film. Bergman we understand immediately,
but before the scene you point out, Devlin is a black hole. He would
have been a bit less of one if Hitchcock had been able to film the
scene where he asks Calhern to take him off the case, but it's
probably just as well he couldn't.
26330
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:47am
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
> Dan writes:
>
> > There's definitely some kind of suspension going
> on there in NOTORIOUS, but I wonder if the motivation
> is to tell the audience something that needs to be told.
>
> For me, Hitchcock engineers the rupture because he is
> going against filmic conventions and audience
> expectations. Films that center on heterosexual men are
> most often concerned with the laying out of a task and the
> pursuit of its accomplishment. Such men are normally not
> given space or time to express their emotions. As
> Mankeiwicz said, a movie called "All About Steve" would
> be, at best, a short. Hitchcock ruptures the conventional
> narrative to grant Devlin the emotional complexity usually
> accorded only to women.
>
> Brian
Correction: REfilm the scene with Calhern. Hitchcock shot it, but by
the time the ink dried on the pages and the Production Code people
said that Calhern's casual reference to Alicia getting a divorce once
Raines is caught wouldn't fly, Calhern was gone and the scene
couldn't be reshot.
26331
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:53am
Subject: Re: TAAL hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> Has anyone see TAAL by S. GHAI?
>
> I have only seen about 10 Bollywood films; I thought TAAL one of the
> most entertaining, perhaps because it is modern in its story
content /
> place / time. The opening scene of dancers in contemporary black
> leotards with white dots made me wonder if the rhythmic charm of the
> song and dance would be sacrificed... but it wasn't, though a
> COKE-a-COLA commercialism is so bad, it gets funny.
>
Not surprising. After seeing a hit Indian film at a festival ten years
ago I rode to the airport with one of the producers, who had been to LA
to study the methods of Ovitz's agency (which of course has the Coke
account) in hopes of reshaping the already fantastically successful
Indian cinema along more "commercial" (ie American) lines.
26332
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:53am
Subject: Re: TAAL hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth Nolan wrote:
> Has anyone see TAAL by S. GHAI?
>
> I have only seen about 10 Bollywood films; I thought TAAL one of the
> most entertaining, perhaps because it is modern in its story
content /
> place / time. The opening scene of dancers in contemporary black
> leotards with white dots made me wonder if the rhythmic charm of the
> song and dance would be sacrificed... but it wasn't, though a
> COKE-a-COLA commercialism is so bad, it gets funny.
>
Not surprising. After seeing a hit Indian film at a festival ten years
ago I rode to the airport with one of the producers, who had been to LA
to study the methods of Ovitz's agency (which of course has the Coke
account) in hopes of reshaping the already fantastically successful
Indian cinema along more "commercial" (ie American) lines.
26333
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:04am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> > It was seen that way only in its initial run. Those
> prints haven't been shown publically, as far as I
> know, since 1967 -- adn I have no idea if they exist
> any longer.
I saw it that way thru a blur of hash, and it freaked me out. For one
thing I was 1-A, and for another, I couldn't figure out if the damn
thing was in color. These little red details kept appearing and
disappearuing as soon as I looked...
26334
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:17am
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> >
> > Agreed, but I find Welles' narration coy and
> > irritating, and a lot of
> > the Oja stuff looks like a Playboy video. The
> > ending, which is her
> > story (Picasso), saves the film, and the riffs on
> > Hughes and Elmyr are
> > great.
> >
> >
> And as you know it's the first cousin of the greatest
> film ever made.
Still haven't seen all of it - just the bits screened at Joe's party.
Another thing: The breathless attempt to build ever madder
labyrinthine ironies out of one or two so-so coincidences (again in
the narration) is strained. The editing is very good, but I don't
think Welles actually finished the editing himself - maybe he'd have
gotten rid of some of the things that irritate me if he had. I used
to like it a lot, but it has grown "off" me.
26335
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:18am
Subject: Re: F 9/11 (was re: Godard the Grouch) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Corn's a ig Judy Miller defender too.
Puh-yook.
26336
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:26am
Subject: Re: Pesky Ideas (was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
>
> His professorship at Cornell was his day job for that period of his
> life, and his involvement the class-eucational complex was not of
long
> duration. I'm inclined to take Nabby at his word when he says that
the
> word play came about because English was his second language and as
> such it was fun for him as a writer working in a foreign tongue to
play
> with words in and of itself; he was not pandering to intellectual
> privilege here.
Richard, as you know I have gotten tremendous pleasure from VN over
the years, but (under the heading of stating the obvious, which I
seem to be into these days) he is a dreadful snob, and what sure
sounds like aristocratic class attitudes hang over parts of the work
in unpleasant ways. No? I mean, put him next to Chekhov, Tolstoy and
Solzhenitsyn (who hated Soviet Communism every bit as much as VN),
and all but a few works suffer by comparison, IMO.
That said, I'm now reading The Enchanter, which turned up at an LA
Public Library book sale in my nabe last weekend (for fifty cents!),
and finding it facsinating. This version really IS about pedophilia!
26337
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:45am
Subject: Re: F for Fake (Was: Godard the Grouch) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Bill, David,
>
> cathedral, shot by Gary Graver without Welles being present but
under his specific
> directions (this according to Graver's commentary track on
Criterion's new DVD of
> the film.)
Hm - a jangadeiro lady we interviewed in Fortaleza said she visited
Chartres with a friend and Welles happened to be there shooting that
day. But she was intimidated, so she didn't go in - maybe it was just
Gary. It's a lovely sequence, but I don't believe what he's saying. I
mean, I don't believe he means it.
When FFF came out, we were in the high 70s and Derrida and Barthes
were all over my head, so you can believe that the "signature" theme
didn't fall on deaf ears. But when I spoke to Welles he seemed more
lighthearted about it: just said he stopped doing fisheye shots when
people started calling them Welles shots. And in fact, he did. But
that has more to do with his unending Titanic struggle to achieve
originality, which I don't think had really stopped when he was
making FFF. FO is more modest, makes fewer big claims and is all told
a more honest film, to me. I don't think he is saying anything there
for effect, and if we're talking essay film, that counts. Most of the
out-and-out essay films by Welles that are extant are pretty bad.
The garden fragment from The Dreamers, on the other hand, convinces
me with its expression of some kind of genuine weariness with being
Welles. It may help that he put the words in Oja's mouth - I'm not
sure he could've said them himself as well. You have to realize, a
lot of what he was musing about in that interview comes from working
on The Dreamers - he had just finished shooting the garden fragment
when we did it. So the whole business of erasing the signature, which
had been going on for a decade, was culminating then, and finds its
finest expression in that fragment, not at Charters, however
beautiful that bit may be.
What's wonderful about Filming Othello is that he sort of settled
into just being himself in it: a man talking to men in the language
of men, to use Wordsworth's phrase. The Montaigne influence is very
strong there, and would have predominated if he had made Filming The
Trial, etc.
26338
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:49am
Subject: Re: Bride Wore Black (was: twentynine palms) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
This is starting to sound a bit more entertaining than The
> Bride Wore Black).
yes it is!
>
> It's quite possible that the author of the book
> > Tarantino adapted had read the novel...unless of course it was
> written
> > in the 14th century!
>
> Don't quite get you there--are you saying Tarantino adapted "Kill
> Bill" from Woolrich? I would have thought he simply saw the film.
Kill Bill is based on a Chinese novel, The Bride. I have no idea what
the date of it is. I was speculating that it might have been influenced
by Woolrich, so that the similarities might not be synchronicity or
Tarantino having seen The Bride Wore Black. Sometimes a common source
is the explanation for this kind of mystery.
26339
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:02am
Subject: Re: Reflections in a Golden Eye thebradstevens
David Ehrenstein
> >It was seen that way only in its initial run. Those
> >prints haven't been shown publically, as far as I
> >know, since 1967 -- adn I have no idea if they exist
> >any longer.
>
The golden version was shown a few years ago on one of the commercial
German television stations (without any kind of fanfare - it simply
happened to be the version they had access to). It seemed to be an
extremely old print, probably dating from the film's original German
theatrical release. It was letterboxed at a compromised 1.85 ratio,
and dubbed into German. I spent some time dubbing the soundtrack from
the UK video of REFLECTIONS over this transfer, since I assumed this
would be the only chance I'd ever have to see the film as Huston
intended.
26340
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:06am
Subject: Re: Reflections in a Golden Eye, & our group (was: Pesky Ideas) thebradstevens
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper "Reflections
in a Golden Eye" was most certainly released
> in a "golden" print, and the golden look, with hints of pink or
other
> colors
Certain strong colors are clearly evident in the 'golden' print. One
scene which involves green grass and blue sky almost appears to be
full color. Much of the rest of the film doesn't appear to have a
trace of any color. For an idea of exactly how this looked onscreen,
watch the opening sequence of the director's cut of PAT GARRETT &
BILLY THE KID.
26341
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:07pm
Subject: Re: F for Fake (Was: Godard the Grouch) cellar47
--- ptonguette@... wrote:
>
> The Chartres sequence is among my favorite
> "spiritual" moments in cinema and
> among my favorite moments in all of Welles. It
> wasn't until I saw it on film
> in a decent print that I felt this way. His precise
> selection of shots of the
> cathedral, and the editing of the shots (including
> heart-stopping dissolves
> and laps), is just... thrilling.
>
I agree it's very lovely. And the fact that Welles
wasn't there for it only goes on to prove the film's
thesis.
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26342
From: samadams@...
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:08pm
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch arglebargle31
Speaking of bootlegs, has anyone come across anything by Vittorio de
Seta in their travels? I caught the Tribeca Film Fest's two-part
tribute and was blown away by the reel of seven early documentaries,
and well impressed with his second feature Almost a Man, which given
my low tolerance for psychodrama is really saying something. I've
found an English-dubbed copy of Bandits of Orgosolo available several
places, but that's it.
And speaking of De Seta, any thoughts on the man? The docs, as I
mentioned, were astonishing: 7 10-minute films of Sicilian
fisherfolk, shepherds and so forth, with Eisensteinian editing and
abrasive, often shocking use of natural sound (too much so in the
case of the magnificent Island of Fire, in which the festival let the
sound of steam hissing out of an island volcano run at ear-splitting
volume for the duration despite numerous complaints and the fact that
half the auditorium was watching with their fingers in their ears).
Really jaw-dropping.
Almost a Man, which De Seta referred to as "my neurosis in progress,"
was an entirely different kettle of fish. (The fest unfortunately
skipped over Bandits, although Martin Scorsese, whose collection the
docs were drawn from, did pass on the tasty tidbit that Jack
Nicholson based his script for Ride in the Whirlwind on De Seta's
tale of shepherds forced into banditry by extreme poverty.) That
psychoanalytic stuff tends to bore me, but the compositions were
still striking, and the blacks in the freshly struck print were
positively mesmeric.
So did anyone else catch the De Seta retros either in NY or at the
Full Frame Festival in Durham? Or would any old-heads care to weigh
in? Thanks in advance to the a_f_bers who recommended the De Seta
films in advance since they ended up being, by quite a stretch, the
best things I saw at Tribeca.
Sam
26343
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:12pm
Subject: Re: CATCH 22 directed by Richard Quine! cellar47
--- ptonguette@... wrote:
> David,
>
> Did Durgnat ever publish anything on "Strangers When
> We Meet"? If so, do you
> know where it's available?
>
He mentions it a lot in "Films and Feelings" and it
pops up in "Standing Up For Jesus" -- which I
reprinted from "Motion" and is now available on-line
at "Light Sleeper."
> I like your summary of Nichols very much and am
> inclined to agree that he
> "retreated to a simpler style" following the
> commercial failures of his last few,
> formally ambitious films. You're also right that
> the Nichols of old does
> resurface from time to time in his later works. I
> may sound nuts, but I think
> one "recent" Nichols which contains an interesting
> mise-en-scene (albeit it also
> contains an awful, hugely manipulative script - but
> we're used to such things
> as auteurists) is 1991's "Regarding Henry."
> Evidently, Gavin Smith wrote
> some kind of appreciation of the film in Film
> Comment, titled "Without Cutaways,"
> but I've never been able to find Smith's piece.
>
One degee of separation! Several scenes of "Regarding
Henry" were shot at the Rancho Los Amigos Medical
center in Downey -- where I also went to recover from
my stroke in '97.
What do you think of Nichols rendition of "Angels in
America" ? I find it rather fascinating that Kushner
should end up with Nichols after declaring way back
when the play was first written that his major
influence was Altman -- particularly "Nashville." At
one time or another Altman was attached to a movie
version of "Angels" -- which finally collapsed and was
replaced by this TV version.
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26344
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:35pm
Subject: De Seta (Was: Godard the Grouch) sallitt1
> So did anyone else catch the De Seta retros either in NY or at the
> Full Frame Festival in Durham?
I saw most of the recent De Seta screenings in NYC. The documentary
program ran so late that I had to make a choice between programs, so I
didn't see all the shorts. Hopefully they'll return in Feb. when MOMA
hosts that comprehensive De Seta retro.
The guy is pretty amazing. He's always swinging for the fences: I
expected a more modest artistic presence, but he's got the temperament of
a major artist.
BANDITS OF ORGOLOSO, which I revisited at MOMA a few weeks ago, is a
really good film: it stays within its neorealist boundaries, but has a
strong sense of counterpoint, so that the grandiose aspects of the filming
and the mundane aspects of the characters' lives play off against each
other in an ongoing way.
ALMOST A MAN may not be as successful, but it's mighty impressive and
compelling. Even though I don't think it's as good as BANDITS, it makes
an even stronger case for De Seta as a major dude: certainly he wasn't
tied to any notions of documentary verisimitude, nor to the ascetic
qualities of socially conscious neorealism.
What I saw of the documentaries was also quite ambitious, but perhaps in a
more old-school way: they almost felt like works of the 30s instead of the
50s, but with a strong subjective slant. Again, the guy seems to be
firing on all cylinders all the time.
- Dan
26345
From: "Zach Campbell"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch rashomon82
Sam Adams:
> the tasty tidbit that Jack
> Nicholson based his script for Ride in the Whirlwind on De Seta's
> tale of shepherds forced into banditry by extreme poverty.)
Technically in both cases they are impoverished innocents forced
into flight because of mistaken association with bandits!
> That
> psychoanalytic stuff tends to bore me, but the compositions were
> still striking, and the blacks in the freshly struck print were
> positively mesmeric.
Yeah, ALMOST A MAN was working its way toward all-time status for
me, but as it wore on it seemed to constrict itself a bit too much
with the psychoanalytic content. Kind of a pity. It's a *gorgeous*
film, though, and you're right to say that the print
proved "mesmeric." The film is like a 90-minute Calvin Klein ad in
a lot of ways, but that's no diminution of its visual and rhythmic
beauty.
I kinda suspect that the Italian filmmakers who "got started" in the
neorealist revival of the early 1960s (Olmi, Pasolini, De Seta, and--
waiting on my video pile--perhaps Zurlini) are one of the most
undervalued strains in film history, Pasolini's quite respectable
stature notwithstanding.
I'm thrilled that MoMA will present a De Seta retrospective next
February--I guess I'll get a chance to see those early shorts, which
I missed at Tribeca.
--Zach
26346
From: Jesse Paddock
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:59pm
Subject: Vittorio De Seta (Was: Godard the Grouch) jesse_paddock
Sam,
I posted on De Seta after Full Frame. The subtitled print of Bandits
in Orguloso was astonishing. Here's what I had to say about it:
>>>I caught a gorgeous 35mm screening of De Seta's 1961 B&W feature
Banditi A Orgosolo yesterday. It was my first encounter with the
man's work and I found it pretty incredible: a very simple, almost
Bressonian story of a shepherd who's framed for theft and forced to hide out
on top of a mt. with his flock and younger brother.
This is obviously Neo-Realist: the relationship b/w the man and his
brother reminded me of nothing so much as Antonio and lil Bruno in
Bicycle Thief. But there was something in the rough, rocky terrain of
De Seta's Sardinia that gave the film some treacherous suspense: in
some ways it was more like Saura's La Caza or at its most abstract, it
looked ahead to Gerry. <<<<<
Here's Dan Sallitt's insightful response:
>>>>What I like about it is that
it has a strong sense of the mundane that's used very effectively against
the slightly grandiose filming of the landscape. De Seta seems quite
interested in the little chores the actors do while they talk, or how long
it takes them to cross a little field.<<<<<<<
I think my favorite of the shorts was Easter in Orgosolo, but you're
right on with your inpressions about Volcano. Scorsese was at Full
Frame to promote De Seta's work (De Seta himself was there, too) and
give a talk on documentary filmmaking in general. He said he was
given the set of 35 prints by his Italian producers of Il Mio Viaggio
in Italia. They've pretty much blown away everyone who's seen them,
so I for one am glad they're starting to make the rounds. I'd be
willing to bet a decent DVD release follows.
Tribeca looked pretty exhausting. What else have you managed to see?
Jesse
26347
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Reflections in a Golden Eye cinebklyn
Thanks for all the information on "Reflections."
Since next year is Huston's centenary, hopefully
someone will show a restored print.
I must disagree, however, with Fred's view that
the film is of little cinematic interest. The way
Huston isolates all the characters from one another
and frames them as if they are imprisoned in the
interiors is of great interest. It is as if the
characters are visually and verbally at cross-
purposes, as if they are incapable of communicating
not only with each other, but also with their
inner desires.
Huston keeps the audience at a distance (as he so
often does), so that the intensity of the lack of
communication becomes almost suffocating.
Brian
26348
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Twentynine palms too many (SPOILERS!) sallitt1
We are still SPOILING the heck out of TWENTYNINE PALMS - please do not
read a word of this if you're going to see the film.
> Isn't that all traditional "psychology", seizing on a tiny,
> insignificant exchange to reveal the tension between the two, the
> girl's rather unstable state of mind? Because the characters don't
> conduct a Proustian analysis of their emotions and feelings doesn't
> mean that this is not, among other things, a "psychological study"
> of an insecure, somewhat neurotic young woman.
My take on this is that the psychology throughout is plausible and
coherent enough, but it is only lightly connected to plotting, even before
the disjunctive ending. If the psychology was tightly linked to story
until the end, the film would be a kind of shaggy-dog narrative. If the
behavior didn't hold up under psychological examination, then the film
would be more abstract than it is. Dumont takes a middle ground between
those extremes. One can be interested in the people, and the film
supports our being interested; but even before the end, we can probably
sense that characterization is not going to be the element that pulls this
film into a unity.
> is daring a sufficient excuse for throwing all
> narrative coherence overboard?
Well, no. But I don't think daring is the idea: I think that throwing
narrative coherence overboard is the idea.
Dumont has talked about the angle that Craig has mentioned: that he finds
the American desert a scary place. If the bad stuff had started happening
after 30 minutes, we would find ourselves in a typical horror movie
situation. (And horror films quite often have some difficulty
establishing a meaningful connection between the characters and what
happens to them.) Here we have the peculiar effect of deferring horror
until the end. The disjunctive aspects of this approach are emphasized
rather than minimized.
> This ending is like the mysterious opening of the pantry door
> in "The Shining" but although Dumont wanted to inject a "fantastic"
> feeling in his movie, we don't seem to be in the right genre for
> this kind of thing (OK, mixing genres can be fun, but here the mix
> doesn't take). After all, if we are to accept the fact that we have
> entered the realm of the irrational, the entire attack/rape episode
> can be seen as belonging to the same realm: a dream, a fantasy, a
> metaphor, whatever -- except something "real".
Saying "the mix of genres doesn't take" doesn't mean much here, though.
If you're saying that the mix isn't smooth, then, yeah, most would agree
with you. If you're saying you don't want the film destroyed, then I can
understand, and even relate. But I don't see much evidence that Dumont is
going for an effective "mix" in the usual sense of the word.
As for the plausibility of the end, it seems as if your main problem is
that the actor took so many blows to the head that he shouldn't be able to
perform the climactic actions. Maybe - I don't know. I often wonder how
movie characters recover from what they experience. This is really a
question for a doctor. In my current state of knowledge, I'm not too
troubled by this sort of thing. Hitchcock once said about eliminating
some plot inconsistency, "It's the easiest part, so why bother?" Mentally
edit out a few blows of the baseball bat, and the movie is back on track.
This of course says nothing about the plausibility of why David should
behave as he does in the aftermath of the attack. I feel pretty sure that
we are supposed to find this inexplicble, and that the effect of the
ending is based on the inexplicability. - Dan
26349
From: Craig Keller
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: Twentynine palms too many evillights
On Sunday, May 1, 2005, at 10:18 PM, jpcoursodon wrote:
> I'll have to come back to the rest of your post later. But this
> has been a stimulating ecxchange (I think we've put everybody else
> to sleep). JPC.
I'll also have to resume the discussion, which has indeed been
stimulating, at a later time -- I'm going to be in New York for a
couple of days, and will bookmark your message for a reply when I
return!
I just realized that 'Tih Minh' is screening Wednesday night and
Thursday night at MoMA -- and in one continuous sitting on Saturday.
Unfortunately I won't be able to make it... but I don't feel that bad
about it, as it's the less complete version as controlled by Gaumont.
(Longer version of the film is in stasis -- thanks, Gaumont -- at the
Belgian Cinémathèque.) If it's -practically- complete, I'll probably
catch up with it on DVD, as I predict a release within a year's time.
Enough people are buzzing about Feuillade these days that it no longer
seems so implausible (a big MoMA retrospective never hurts such
prospects, either). Not to mention that whereas I can turn the volume
off on my television, I can't very well shoot the piano player.
On another P.S. -- from the TCM website's page on 'The Immortal Story'
--
The cinematographer Willy Kurant first worked with Jean-Luc Godard on
Masculin, Feminin (1966) and has since alternated between projects for
French directors, among them Agnes Varda, Alain Robbe-Grillet and
Maurice Pialat, and miscellaneous American TV movies and independent
films. His most recent credit is the blaxploitation spoof Pootie Tang
(2001).
Willy Kurant shot 'Pootie Tang' -- who knew!
craig.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26350
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Twentynine palms too many cellar47
--- Craig Keller wrote:
>
> Willy Kurant shot 'Pootie Tang' -- who knew!
>
SOMEBODY had to. And who better than the dp of
"Masculin-Feminin" and "Le Depart"?
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26351
From: programming
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:11pm
Subject: Re: Peter Watkins on dvd (was Re: Godard the Grouch) cfprogramming
Punishment Park plus
Two early short films by Peter Watkins - The Forgotten Faces and The Diary
of an Unknown Soldier - plus filmography, documents, and articles about the
film.
is available on dvd from Canyon Cinema for $35 for home use.
They also have La Commune listed at, I think, $135 for vhs but it does not
specify if that's rental or sale (awfully cheap if it's rental).
Patrick F.
On 5/1/05 11:11 AM, "Craig Keller" wrote:
>
> On Sunday, May 1, 2005, at 09:27 AM, David Ehrenstein wrote:
>> >
>> > His Munch film is atypical. What he's been trying to
>> > do in recent years with "The Journey" and more
>> > recently "The Commune" is make films that aren't
>> > passive "consumption" experieces ut sites of activism.
>> > Not surprised he's not on video.
>
> Oh, but he is. 'The War Game' is out on DVD from the BFI. 'La Commune
> (Paris, 1871)' is out on DVD in France (two-disc, complete 5h 45m
> version), with English subtitles. Soon to come from Masters of Cinema:
> 'Punishment Park.' Additionally, a few of the previous Watkins films
> are currently being prepared for DVD from other publishers -- 'Edvard
> Munch' and a handful of others.
>
> craig.
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26352
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:21pm
Subject: Speaking of Willy Kurant cellar47
There seems to be a whole "Alternate History of the
Cinema" in Willy Kurant's credits
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005763/
including as they do items I've been obsessing about
lately like "Anna" and "Je t'aime, moi non plus."
And right alongside them you'll find the outre likes
of "Harper Valley PTA," "The Babysitter's Club" and
"Mama Dracula."
Takes one's breath away.
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26353
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
>
>
> > On Truffaut: I have really missed the boat on him. Need to
see "The
> Bride
> > Wore Black" and "The Soft Skin" ASAP. Always loved "Fahrenheit
451"
> and "Day for
> > Night".
>
> You have one treat in store for you. If you love Fahrenheit 451,
> you'll love The Bride Wore Black. (Has anyone noticed that it has
the
> same plot as Kill Bill?) You may not enjoy The Soft Skin - it
falls
> in that grim realism slot, although it is highly stylized. But
bleak.
Although your description of The Soft Skin is apt enough, Bill,
Truffaut doing bleak is rather entrancing--and I consider this one
of his best movies. Can't think of any reason Mike wouldn't like
it, what with good storytelling, characters, style, and all those
things which I also value. Still, your earlier observation that
Godard's A Married Woman is actually more immediately entertaining
is probably true, strangely enough, though I don't necessarily think
it's a deeper, finer film. I like both very much.
Mike, your mention of four Truffauts inevitably makes one curious as
to which ones you've seen and not seen. Everyone has seen those
first three features, right? Of later ones, The Story of Adele H is
my personal favorite, my favorite of all his movies perhaps, though
I haven't seen Shoot the Piano Player in years. Adele H is a close
to unique experience of someone's personal narrative through their
consciousness, though it beautifully visualizes her world as well,
even if it doesn't contextualize her in it in any conventional way.
If you haven't seen Mississippi Mermaid or Two English Girls, you
may be interested to know that the versions now available are longer
(the original French ones) than those first seen here, much to their
advantage--both were lifted to masterpiece status for me when I saw
them that way. Truffaut is an incredibly mature soul on subjects
like these.
The Green Room was at one time derided in some quarters--it's deeply
moving, a passionate cri de coeur (apologies to David) about death,
and Truffaut himself plays the lead. Recently watched again his
final movie Confidentially Yours. It's charming--he plainly just
loved it and didn't want to see it end.
Blake
26354
From: "Ruy Gardnier"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Speaking of Willy Kurant ruygardnier
David,
a much more comprehensive list can be found at
http://www.beer1.freeler.nl/PaginasDoPh/kurant.htm
It's funny, because I was doing some research about Pialat's "Chroniques
turques" (while composing a Pialat filmography for Sessão Cineclube, which
will show À nos amours in ten-days time), that had Kurant as cameraman (the
crew, it seems, was basically both men) and film stolen from Robbe-Grillet's
"L'Immortelle" (apud Clelia Cohen in CdC 576). They are among the very first
entries in the imdb Kurant filmography.
Ruy
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ehrenstein"
To:
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: [a_film_by] Speaking of Willy Kurant
> There seems to be a whole "Alternate History of the
> Cinema" in Willy Kurant's credits
>
> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005763/
>
26355
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood sallitt1
> Films that center on heterosexual men are
> most often concerned with the laying out of a task and the
> pursuit of its accomplishment. Such men are normally not
> given space or time to express their emotions. As
> Mankeiwicz said, a movie called "All About Steve" would
> be, at best, a short. Hitchcock ruptures the conventional
> narrative to grant Devlin the emotional complexity usually
> accorded only to women.
My first impression is that nearly every good film centering on a male
heterosexual character is an exception to that rule.... - Dan
26356
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:00pm
Subject: Re: Speaking of Willy Kurant cellar47
--- Ruy Gardnier wrote:
> David,
> a much more comprehensive list can be found at
> http://www.beer1.freeler.nl/PaginasDoPh/kurant.htm
Wow -- thanks. Fascinating that he was camera operator
on "A Night to Rememebr" and "The Gypsy and the
Gentleman." Quite important. Remember, while Russell
Metty was the dp on "Touch of Evil" the camera
operator who actually executed the most famous long
take in the history of the cinema was Phil Lathrop.
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26357
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
Of later ones, The
> Story of Adele H is
> my personal favorite, my favorite of all his movies
> perhaps, though
> I haven't seen Shoot the Piano Player in years.
> Adele H is a close
> to unique experience of someone's personal narrative
> through their
> consciousness, though it beautifully visualizes her
> world as well,
> even if it doesn't contextualize her in it in any
> conventional way.
It's one of his finest achievements. The climactic
shot of Adjani walking right past Bruce Robinson
without recognizing him is devestating.
I suspect the hard edge Truffaut brings to the film
stems from the fact that he never got to first base
with his star.
We can't ALL be Warren Beatty.
> If you haven't seen Mississippi Mermaid or Two
> English Girls, you
> may be interested to know that the versions now
> available are longer
> (the original French ones) than those first seen
> here, much to their
> advantage--both were lifted to masterpiece status
> for me when I saw
> them that way. Truffaut is an incredibly mature
> soul on subjects
> like these.
>
I've always loved "La Sirene du Mississsipi." Belomond
and Deneuve are lovey together, the Duhamel score is
great ant the fact that it all ends in the same cabin
that "Shoot the PIano Player" ended in makes it Auteur
Heaven.
I"ll have to look at "Two English Girls" agaian.
> The Green Room was at one time derided in some
> quarters--it's deeply
> moving, a passionate cri de coeur (apologies to
> David) about death,
> and Truffaut himself plays the lead.
No apologies necessary. It's a masterpiece -- and one
of the best James adaptations ever. Takes him clean
away from Merchant-Ivory.
Recently
> watched again his
> final movie Confidentially Yours. It's charming--he
> plainly just
> loved it and didn't want to see it end.
>
It's quite cute -- alove letter to Fanny Ardant. Where
Truffaur fails is "The Woman Next Door." It SHOULD be
a masterpeice but Truffaut loses his nerve and makes
it all too cozy and "normal." The man who made "Jules
and Jim" certainly knew l'amour fou when it came to
call. Not here. Likewise "The Last Metro" -- his last
big mainstream success -- suffers from being a big
mainstream success. It's really not all that far from
Henri Verneui.
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26358
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch jontakagi
On 5/1/05, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Taht's good to now. On recent trips to Japanese stores
> in downtown L.A.my boyfriend scored DVDs of "Muriel"
> and "Le Couple Temoin." Japanese subtitles, of course,
> but I know French.
"Muriel" is also out on DVD in France, with a couple extra
shorts tacked on (like "Van Gogh" and "Paul Gauguin").
> Basically I'm looking for Klein, Duras, early Garrel
> and middle period Rivette.
I've located almost every Rivette film, but in very poor quality.
I've also been able to track down quite a few Duras, but also
quite poor. You can send an email to Pierre at Aux films du
temps (http://www.auxfilmsdutemps.com). It's a poster
shop, but when I was there a couple months back, they
had SECAM VHS copies (not bootlegs) of several Duras titles.
The only one I remember off the top of my head is "Le Camion".
Jonathan Takagi
26359
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch cellar47
--- Jonathan Takagi wrote:
>
> I've located almost every Rivette film, but in very
> poor quality.
Well truly teriffic DVDs of "Hurlevent" ("Wuthering
Heights") and "Secret Defense" came out a few years
ago from Image. They're both excellent.
> I've also been able to track down quite a few Duras,
> but also
> quite poor. You can send an email to Pierre at Aux
> films du
> temps (http://www.auxfilmsdutemps.com). It's a
> poster
> shop, but when I was there a couple months back,
> they
> had SECAM VHS copies (not bootlegs) of several Duras
> titles.
> The only one I remember off the top of my head is
> "Le Camion".
>
Thanks. But what we need is the REAL Duras -- namely a
two DVD set of "India Song" and "Son nom du Venise
dans Calcutta desert." Other choice items like
"Agatha" and "Le Navire Night" are likewise
DVD-worthy.
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26360
From: Jonathan Takagi
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch jontakagi
On 5/2/05, David Ehrenstein wrote:
> Well truly teriffic DVDs of "Hurlevent" ("Wuthering
> Heights") and "Secret Defense" came out a few years
> ago from Image. They're both excellent.
I suppose that "Out 1" is possible as well - there was a
VHS release, why not DVD?
> Thanks. But what we need is the REAL Duras -- namely a
> two DVD set of "India Song" and "Son nom du Venise
> dans Calcutta desert." Other choice items like
> "Agatha" and "Le Navire Night" are likewise
> DVD-worthy.
Why not "Nathalie Granger"? "India Song" is already out
on DVD in Japan. My copy of "Son nom de Vénise..." is
terrible - it's in b/w, probably from a faulty SECAM transfer.
Jonathan
26361
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:54pm
Subject: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
>.
>
>mere
> aesthetic experiences>
I know I'm taking these three words out of context but isn't that
kind of a poor choice of words? When I was introduced to ideas of
criticism (by the teacher who remained my best, and was in fact a
classics professor later on), the first thing he taught was that
vicarious experiences were common, aesthetic experiences less so.
But not only do "mere aesthetic experiences" enjoy a special,
privileged place in the universe--and one central to life for most
a_f_b members, I'd venture to guess--but I've found over the course
of experiencing all forms of art, both critically and just for
pleasure, that most of the thoughts and feelings that are most
eternal are brought to greater clarity and depth in our minds and
souls through precisely those experiences. But really, I didn't
mean to start a long essay on this here...
(I'm not caught up reading posts and maybe someone else has
responded to this already).
Blake
26362
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood cinebklyn
Dan writes:
> My first impression is that nearly every
good film centering on a male heterosexual
character is an exception to that rule....
I agree. That is why they are good films.
But the usual pattern for most male-centered
films is an unquestioning acceptance of the
chase/search/quest being the normal pursuit
of the straight male. Men are doers and
women are feelers.
Great films work against this approach and
critique it as being reductive vis a vis the
complexity of the heterosexual male
experience. I think Huston does the most
with this theme -- showing the toxic effect
societal expectations can can have on the
male and how society trains men for its own
purposes and discards them without remorse
once they have outlived their usefulness or
are maladaptive ("Fat City" -- it feels as if the
characters are part of the landscape of
Stockton itself).
Brian
26363
From: "Fred Patton"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:08pm
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch fred_patton
I picked up India Song some months ago from one of the Japanese
etailers--had to be cdjapan.co.jp or hmv.com. Anyway, it's not
subtitled, and not 16:9, as was indicated. The publisher was Happinet
Pictures.
Fred Patton
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Thanks. But what we need is the REAL Duras -- namely a
> two DVD set of "India Song" and "Son nom du Venise
> dans Calcutta desert." Other choice items like
> "Agatha" and "Le Navire Night" are likewise
> DVD-worthy.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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26364
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: Godard the Grouch cellar47
--- Jonathan Takagi wrote:
>
> I suppose that "Out 1" is possible as well - there
> was a
> VHS release, why not DVD?
>
Good question.
> Why not "Nathalie Granger"?
Your'e right, I should have mentioned that -- and
"Destroy She Said" and "La Femme du Gange."
"India Song" is already
> out
> on DVD in Japan. My copy of "Son nom de Vénise..."
> is
> terrible - it's in b/w, probably from a faulty SECAM
> transfer.
>
Yikes!
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26365
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> But the usual pattern for most male-centered
> films is an unquestioning acceptance of the
> chase/search/quest being the normal pursuit
> of the straight male. Men are doers and
> women are feelers.
>
Then I'd love to have your take on "The Searchers" --
which among other things a top-to-bottom critique of
the chase/search/quest -- exposing it as basically
pathological.
True Natalie Wood should have gotten more screen time
but still. . .
>
>
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26366
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:37pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Blake Lucas wrote:
> Of later ones, The
> > Story of Adele H is
> > my personal favorite,
>
> It's one of his finest achievements. The climactic
> shot of Adjani walking right past Bruce Robinson
> without recognizing him is devestating.
Yes, that's the peak--the "moment of highest emotion" as someone
once said of something else.
>
> I suspect the hard edge Truffaut brings to the film
> stems from the fact that he never got to first base
> with his star.
That's interesting--and hey, I don't blame him if it had that effect.
>
> We can't ALL be Warren Beatty.
>
Actually, I always thought Truffaut was quite cute. Neither of us
mentioned he has a nice cameo (as a soldier) whom Adjani approaches
thinking it's Robinson. He's quite wonderful in that moment.
> >
> > The Green Room was at one time derided in some
> > quarters--it's deeply
> > moving, a passionate cri de coeur (apologies to
> > David) about death,
> > and Truffaut himself plays the lead.
>
> No apologies necessary. It's a masterpiece -- and one
> of the best James adaptations ever. Takes him clean
> away from Merchant-Ivory.
>
Not many good James adaptations--and this one really jumps out.
I resisted adaptation of "The Spoils of Poynton" (PBS version),
as much as I love that particular (short) novel, which is riveting--
because I just was so dubious about its prospects (maybe that's
unfair). But I also resisted their "Secret Agent" although I love
Conrad even more than James. (Hitchcock's rather free adaptation
"Sabotage" is fine in its own right though).
> Recently
> > watched again his
> > final movie Confidentially Yours. It's charming--he
> > plainly just
> > loved it and didn't want to see it end.
> >
> It's quite cute -- alove letter to Fanny Ardant.
At least he got to first base with her!
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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26367
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood sallitt1
>> My first impression is that nearly every
> good film centering on a male heterosexual
> character is an exception to that rule....
>
> I agree. That is why they are good films.
But then isn't it a bit odd to cite Hitchcock for doing what nearly every
good film centering on a male heterosexual character does? - Dan
26368
From: "Aaron Graham"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:45pm
Subject: Re: Speaking of Willy Kurant machinegunmc...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ehrenstein"
> > There seems to be a whole "Alternate History of the
> > Cinema" in Willy Kurant's credits
> >
> > http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005763/
There's a wonderful Q&A with Kurant located here:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/forum/onFilm/kurantQA.shtml
26369
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:51pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> >
> > I suspect the hard edge Truffaut brings to the film
> > stems from the fact that he never got to first base
> > with his star.
>
> That's interesting--and hey, I don't blame him if it had that effect.
> >
Just to clarify, not only do I not blame him but that "hard edge" is
exactly what makes the film, of course.
Blake
26370
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood cinebklyn
Dan writes:
> But then isn't it a bit odd to cite Hitchcock
for doing what nearly every good film
centering on a male heterosexual character
does?
I do not understand your question.
I think what Hitchcock does is terrific. He is
constantly expanding the range of what
heterosexual men do on screen.
The rupture I referenced in "Notorious" was
something I was praising as an example as
of Hitchcock's daring. Sorry it didn't come
off that way.
Brian
26371
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:07pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood cinebklyn
David E. writes:
> Then I'd love to have your take on
"The Searchers" -- which among other
things a top-to-bottom critique of the
chase/search/quest -- exposing it as
basically pathological.
Agreed. I am not a big John Ford fan,
but I do like this movie. He really lets
the darkness out.
An even more scathing critique to me is
Huston's magisterial "The Kremlin Letter."
The despair of "Reflections" is even
deeper here. It is a remarkable film.
Brian
26372
From: "Henrik Sylow"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:10pm
Subject: Kingdom of Heaven henrik_sylow
"Kingdom of Heaven" may well be Scott's weakest film since "Legend"
and his most political.
Having altered the history about the siege of Jerusalem by Saladin and
its defence by Balian of Ibelin, into a sort of "ugly duckling" story,
the films also notes on two interesting aspects.
The first is having none of the films christian characters being
believers. Balian and his father Godefrey both say that "God is not
with them" and rather than believing in an omnipotent God, the good
guys rather believe, that God is within them and guides their actions
thru what their heart and mind tells them. Directly opposing the
Church, King Baldwin IV opposes the decree of the Pope in killing
muslims, by having muslims, judes and christians living in peace side
by side in Jerusalem, and believing in peace between Jerusalem and the
Saracens.
At the same time, the main character, Balian, is a sinner, having not
only killed a priest, but is also doing it big time with another mans
wife (that it is Orlando Bloom is no excuse).
The bad guys, represented by Guy de Lusignan, is a fundamentalist,
believing that only a dead muslim is a good muslim, constantly seeking
war and having his priest using "It's Gods Will" towards any argument
and if you oppose, its "Blasphemy".
On the other side the muslims are depicted as faithful believers,
showing them praying three times thru the film, and depicting Saladin
as a man of honor.
The political angle can be read Guy de Lusignan and Balian of Ibelin.
Where Guy is ultraconservative, constantly seeking war and the
elimination of the muslims, Balian is a man of the people, defending
the weak, believing in peace and dialogue.
It being a conflict between christians and muslims, its very near by
to read Guy as a Bush-like character. And while the films allows such
a reading, Scott extends a possible politcal allegori to a direct
politcal text, by concluding the film with a text saying, that the
conflicts which rose in the wake of the crusades are the same
conflicts which still is present in the area today, and explains in
the press release, that its the cause for the problems in the middle
east today.
Thus it is very curious why he portraits christians as either
rationalists or fundamentalists, and muslims are believers. Especially
within the films political context.
All this aside, the main character, played by Orlando Bloom, simply is
unbelievable. A simple peasant blacksmit in 1186, he "just like that"
becomes a master swordsman, suddenly knows about irrigation, about
accounting (even though he does show some frustration in that scene)
and about siegestrategy and geometri. His character is given no
background information, no motivations, no explainations. It is as if
the mere fact that he is the hero, even that he is Orlando Bloom, is
enough character background.
Furthermore his character refuses to become part of the political game
played at the court, thereby putting him outside a main part of the
story, and to some degree outside of the films narrative frame.
Henrik
26373
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:15pm
Subject: Re: CATCH 22 directed by Richard Quine! hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> What do you think of Nichols rendition of "Angels in
> America" ?
I'm on record as being disappointed, and I don't think it's only
because my memories of the play at the Taper are indelible. Nichols'
production is very B'way. Now that you've seen it, David, what did you
think?
26374
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
> Not many good James adaptations--and this one really
> jumps out.
> I resisted adaptation of "The Spoils of Poynton"
> (PBS version),
> as much as I love that particular (short) novel,
> which is riveting--
> because I just was so dubious about its prospects
> (maybe that's
> unfair). But I also resisted their "Secret Agent"
> although I love
> Conrad even more than James. (Hitchcock's rather
> free adaptation
> "Sabotage" is fine in its own right though).
>
Conrad loved "The Spoils of Poynton." So much so, in
fact thathe wrote a novella called "The Return" in
tribute to what he saw in James -- and presented it to
The master. It's really not in James' style, but
reading it you can sense what got Conrad excited aout
James in "The Spoils of Poynton."
And interestingly enough the new Patrice
Chereau,"Gabrielle," is an adaptation of "The Return"
starring Pascale Greggory and Isabelle Huppert.
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26375
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood sallitt1
>> But then isn't it a bit odd to cite Hitchcock
> for doing what nearly every good film
> centering on a male heterosexual character
> does?
>
> I do not understand your question.
>
> The rupture I referenced in "Notorious" was
> something I was praising as an example as
> of Hitchcock's daring. Sorry it didn't come
> off that way.
Oh, no, I understood that it was a compliment to Hitchcock. But we both
agree that nearly every good film centering on a male heterosexual
character does this sort of thing. So it didn't seem to me very
descriptive to cite NOTORIOUS for such a basic virtue. - Dan
26376
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Willy Kurant cellar47
Thanks, that's really interesting -- especially the
remark about filming Bardot.
--- Aaron Graham wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Ehrenstein"
>
> > > There seems to be a whole "Alternate History of
> the
> > > Cinema" in Willy Kurant's credits
> > >
> > > http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005763/
>
> There's a wonderful Q&A with Kurant located here:
>
>
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/forum/onFilm/kurantQA.shtml
>
>
>
>
>
>
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26377
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) cinebklyn
Blake writes:
> I know I'm taking these three words
out of context but isn't that kind of a
poor choice of words?
Yes, you are right. What I was trying to
distinguish was beauty created for its own
sake and beauty deployed for larger
purposes. What I see more and more of
is the creation of beauty without any
conection to social/moral concerns: a
consumerist approach to aesthetics, as
if the creation of an aesthetic experience
in and of itself were of value.
> When I was introduced to ideas of
criticism (by the teacher who remained my
best, and was in fact a classics professor
later on), the first thing he taught was that
vicarious experiences were common,
aesthetic experiences less so.
I would disagree.
> But not only do "mere aesthetic
experiences" enjoy a special, privileged
place in the universe
I am a pre-Romantic so I would disagree
with categorizing aesthetic experiences
as privileged.
> I've found over the course of experiencing
all forms of art, both critically and just for
pleasure, that most of the thoughts and
feelings that are most eternal are brought to
greater clarity and depth in our minds and
souls through precisely those experiences.
I will have to think about this more carefully.
My first question would be how does the
aesthetic experience bring about this "greater
clarity and depth," and what particular mindset
on the part of the viewer is needed for the
aesthetic experience to be successful in this
way?
Brian
26378
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: CATCH 22 directed by Richard Quine! cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> I'm on record as being disappointed, and I don't
> think it's only
> because my memories of the play at the Taper are
> indelible. Nichols'
> production is very B'way. Now that you've seen it,
> David, what did you
> think?
>
It was just OK. "Angels" really has to be seen and
appreciated in a theater.
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26379
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:25pm
Subject: Re: Godard the Grouch hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Zach Campbell"
wrote:
> I kinda suspect that the Italian filmmakers who "got started" in the
> neorealist revival of the early 1960s (Olmi, Pasolini, De Seta, and--
> waiting on my video pile--perhaps Zurlini) are one of the most
> undervalued strains in film history
How about filmmakers who got started with neorealism? Luciano Emmer,
showcased at Torino last year, is still alive, still working and
totally unknown. He started with ensemble-cast features somewhat in the
De Sica vein (but better, from the one I've seen), then was doing tv
art documentaries all thru the period when people were being
discovered, and only returned to features in the 90s, still doing
ensemble-cast stories. He also created a kind of dramatic interlude
that is unique to Italian tv and well-remembered by people who grew up
watching them. Resnais credits a visit from Emmer to his school with
his decision to become a director instead of an editor. He's very good;
check him out at http://imdb.com/name/nm0256488/
26380
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) sallitt1
> I suspect the hard edge Truffaut brings to the film
> stems from the fact that he never got to first base
> with his star.
>
> We can't ALL be Warren Beatty.
But, like, didn't Truffaut sleep with nearly every other female lead in
his films? If I recall correctly, the Toubiana-de Baecque bio says that
Adjani shut him down, and it is vague about whether he slept with Lafont
and Baye - and everyone else was his lover. Maybe I'm forgetting another
holdout, but that seems like a competitive record even at the Beatty
level. - Dan
26381
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:28pm
Subject: Willy Kurant (Was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Craig Keller wrote:
>
> The cinematographer Willy Kurant first worked with Jean-Luc Godard on
> Masculin, Feminin (1966) and has since alternated between projects
for
> French directors, among them Agnes Varda, Alain Robbe-Grillet and
> Maurice Pialat, and miscellaneous American TV movies and independent
> films. His most recent credit is the blaxploitation spoof Pootie Tang
> (2001).
>
> Willy Kurant shot 'Pootie Tang' -- who knew!
>
He also shot Skolimowski's Le Depart, staring Jean-Pierre Leaud. V.
important. He lives in LA now, as does Skolimowski.
26382
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:30pm
Subject: Re: Man in the Shadow (Was:TCM / catch-up / Peckinpah) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> >
> > Among the "starring": Man in the Shadow, directed by Jack Arnold,
is
> > worth a look. It's an interesting companion piece to Touch of Evil.
>
> I always felt Welles had influenced the direction more than in
any
> other film in which he just acted. Fine-looking black and white
> CinemaScope (the same year Arnold's "The Tattered Dress" also in B&W
> Scope, wasn't bad at all). JPC
I find that proposition a little dubious, not to say he didn't have
some influence probably, but Arnold was quite a confident director
in his own right and "Shadow" more resembles "Dress"--its immediate
predecessor in his filmography, and also in black-and-white
CinemaScope used in a similar way ("Touch of Evil" which followed soon
after "Shadow" looks completely different than either). As Bill
suggests, there are some interesting resonances between "Shadow" and
"Touch"--Welles would have made the powerful rancher of "Shadow" a
tragic hero if he could have, but at least gets the harsh pathos of
his incestuous fixation on his daughter (Colleen Miller), which is in
back of the film's initating murder.
I actually prefer "The Tattered Dress" to "Man in the Shadow" but the
authority of Arnold's direction in both films seems undeniable, and
understandably so--note that his masterpiece "The Incredible Shrinking
Man" immediately preceded them. But I know he has a lot of fans in
a_f_b land and it sounds like you are another.
I always thought Welles was a rather imposing influence on "Jane Eyre"
(Robert Stevenson, and produced by old associate John Houseman with
another early--and beautiful--Herrmann score)--a pretty fair
adaptation. More than that, though, I recently watched again "The
Third Man" (Carol Reed). Sometimes these long-entrenched classics are
really less than their reputations and this is one of those cases.
Yes, Graham Greene wrote it, it has a great cast and that wonderful
music. But it only captures me when Welles comes in--though I
consider this hambone far from the greatest actor (though he rises to
the occasion in some of his own films, especially as Falstaff, but
also, let's face it, as Quinlan), the relative brevity of the part and
the fact that he was plainly given a certain creativity in fashioning
his role and scenes (at least the meeting with Cotten) seems to work
wonders for the film when he comes in. So here's one where I think
one can speak very effectively of his influence.
Finally, who did not note above that is is Colleen Miller, no less,
who plays Welles' daughter in "Man in the Shadow." Though the role
is not nearly as good as those she had in "Four Guns to the Border"
(Richard Carlson) or "The Night Runner" (Abner Biberman), or even
the lesser but likeable "Playgirl" (Joseph Pevney) and "Hot Summer
Night" (David Friedkin), she is in only a relative few films, so that
makes her presence another asset here. And she is the center of a
very beautiful and expressive final shot--which I won't describe for
the benefit of those who will be catching the movie for the first time.
As I always say:
"There's mise-en-scene...and there's Colleen."
{Hey, I know it doesn't really rhyme).
Blake
26383
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Kingdom of Heaven hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
wrote:
> "Kingdom of Heaven" may well be Scott's weakest film since "Legend"
> and his most political.
Sounds interesting. Another thing it has in common with Legend is that
it was reputedly cut to ribbons by the studio, out of fear of offending
ANYONE.
26384
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
(Hitchcock's rather
> > free adaptation
> > "Sabotage" is fine in its own right though).
Truffaut's eulogy for Hitchcock in the Cahiers hors-serie published
after his death was a paragraph of James describing the male
protagonist of The Beast in the Jungle.
26385
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:44pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> >> But then isn't it a bit odd to cite Hitchcock
> > for doing what nearly every good film
> > centering on a male heterosexual character
> > does?
Dan, you're missing Brian's original point. He was talking about a
formal feature - the way Hitchcock stops the film just when the
suspense is at its height to explore Grant's psychology.
26386
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> But, like, didn't Truffaut sleep with nearly every
> other female lead in
> his films? If I recall correctly, the Toubiana-de
> Baecque bio says that
> Adjani shut him down, and it is vague about whether
> he slept with Lafont
> and Baye - and everyone else was his lover. Maybe
> I'm forgetting another
> holdout, but that seems like a competitive record
> even at the Beatty
> level.
Maybe. But there's a huge difference between "The Man
Who Loved Women" and "Shampoo."
And when it came to Isabelle Adjani, Warren round
third and headed for Home Plate in his usual assurred
style.
That reminds me -- I ought to take another look at
"Ishtar."
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26387
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:55pm
Subject: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> Blake writes:
I was trying to
> distinguish was beauty created for its own
> sake and beauty deployed for larger
> purposes. What I see more and more of
> is the creation of beauty without any
> conection to social/moral concerns: a
> consumerist approach to aesthetics, as
> if the creation of an aesthetic experience
> in and of itself were of value.
I'd turn it around. Like Barthes I believe that what we consume in a
work of art is meanings, and that includes what is usually narrowly
described as visual beauty, as if that existed by itself, apart from
meanings. At the same time, being mired in an intellectualized
version of late Romanticism like Barthes, I am inclined to say that
what matters isn't what a film means, but how it means.
Obviously this is in contradiction with my politicization, which,
like that of the Cahiers, came after I had gone thru my Barthes
phase. These contradictions are still being creatively thought thru
(by me, anyway).
But value judgements aside, I'll stick to the post-structuralist
analysis of the art object and how it functions. The best challenge
to that is the point of view of someone like Tag or, in our group,
Maxime Renaudin, both of whom I listen to attentively. But they are
too fin de siecle for your purposes.
26388
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:04pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
Maybe I'm forgetting another
> holdout, but that seems like a competitive record even at the
Beatty
> level. - Dan
Not in the same class - he was a shy guy who only could meet women by
making films with them. He even made a serious suicide attempt when a
tease gave him the gate early on, then joined the foreig Legion,
basically, toget over it.
To veer away from the gossip side: There is no filmmaker I have blown
very hot and very cold on more than Truffaut. I'm now re-seeing the
films post-the-first-three, which I know by heart, and being
astonished at what a great visual artist he is. I'm in the middle of
the Woman Next Door, which is his most daring experiment. He perverts
the convention of starting in a master and then moving in by making
the masters the center of gravity of the film, although he does move
in when he needs to and makes very creative use of those masters,
moving the camera lot, not just locking it on a tripod as some do
these days. This film looks like no other film evr made. Perhaps I
will appreciate the very estheticized Truffauts - Two English Girls,
Green Room - which I've been skeptical about lately when I see them
again. Bride Wore Black was a revelation in this respect - I already
knew that Soft Skin and Fahrenheit were great films, but reseeing
Bride Wore Black, it was as if scales fell from my eyes. (It was his
least favorite film).
26389
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Man in the Shadow (Was:TCM / catch-up / Peckinpah) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
Arnold was quite a confident director
> in his own right and "Shadow" more resembles "Dress"--its immediate
> predecessor in his filmography, and also in black-and-white
> CinemaScope used in a similar way
Arnold remember a very cooperative Welles. >
> I actually prefer "The Tattered Dress"
I prefer it too. .
>
> I always thought Welles was a rather imposing influence on "Jane
Eyre"
It was his first job of work as an actor, but he was probably too
busy editing It's All True in Shirley Temple's bungalow when he
wasn't needed to do any directing.
, I recently watched again "The
> Third Man" (Carol Reed). it only captures me when Welles comes in--
There his influence is strictly as an actor, but he admitted sort of
directing Black Magic when I spoke to him. At least he took credit
for the necklace shot, proudly citing Scorsese's quotation of it in
Raging Bull.
26390
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:11pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> That reminds me -- I ought to take another look at
> "Ishtar."
It's my favorite May film after Mikey and Nicky. If anyone knows where
I can get a bootleg of the unreleased soundtrack album, I'd be most
appreciative.
26391
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:15pm
Subject: Notorious and subverting heterosexuality (Was: Golden Age Misunderstood) sallitt1
> Dan, you're missing Brian's original point. He was talking about a
> formal feature - the way Hitchcock stops the film just when the
> suspense is at its height to explore Grant's psychology.
I guess I should let Brian speak for himself, but: I proposed a theory for
why the film dawdles in Alicia's bedroom, and Brian had a counterproposal:
"For me, Hitchcock engineers the rupture because he is going against
filmic conventions and audience expectations." By way of disagreement,
I'm trying to argue that so many films express the emotions of hetero men
that audiences can't reasonably be surprised at this. - Dan
26392
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:19pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> Dan writes:
>
> > But then isn't it a bit odd to cite Hitchcock
> for doing what nearly every good film
> centering on a male heterosexual character
> does?
>
> I do not understand your question.
>
> I think what Hitchcock does is terrific. He is
> constantly expanding the range of what
> heterosexual men do on screen.
>
As I interpret the series of posts Brian wrote on this subject,
he doesn't believe there are many good films centered on male
heterosexual characters. He considers Notorious a major exception.
That would explain why he says "I do not understand your question."
Please correct me if I am wrong, Brian.
The implication of Dan's question is that there are many good films
centered on male heterosexual characters--films that do not take at
face value the "quest/search/perform some action" definition of
traditional male heterosexual behavior, even when that notion sets
them into motion.
Of course, I am with Dan on this one. It has been one of the tasks
of cinema--and one Hollywood cinema took up with great creativity--
to trouble both male and female stereotypes. Again, reading Brian's
posts--and earlier ones of his as well--I just don't think he
agrees. I think he sees the female as drawing the finer talents
(Mankiewicz) for the most part (hard to say this of Huston, who,
except for Kerr and Gardner in "Night of the Iguana" rarely draws
female characters as well as male ones), and in the case of
Mankiewicz, he's probably right--this seems like a director who is
probably best studied as more female-inspired or female-oriented,
though that doesn't explain "Five Fingers" or "The Quiet American,"
for example, which are effective and interesting films.
Brian's view of "Hollywood masculinity" may in fact still be the
common one, but it is one I always argue against and don't think is
supported when one really starts looking at individual movies.
Interestingly, it is often in the so-called "masculine genres"
(and I simply do not support the cliche of "masculine" and "feminine"
genres--these are reductive concepts) that the inward, reflective
and "sensitive" sides of men are best expressed. Especially the
Western, of course.
I may have missed it, Brian, but I have not seen you mention one
Western. Not one. I know when you covered that post-war period
of 1946 to 1952/1953, there was not one, even though it was in that
period the genre first fully blossomed, beginning in 1946 with
"My Darling Clementine" (John Ford) and "Canyon Passage" (Jacques
Tourneur). More sensitive films than those two you won't find, and
the male characters (as well as the female ones) are created with
wonderful wholeness and depth of feeling.
Blake
26393
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:29pm
Subject: Re: Notorious and subverting heterosexuality (Was: Golden Age Misunderstood) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
By
> way of disagreement,
> I'm trying to argue that so many films express the
> emotions of hetero men
> that audiences can't reasonably be surprised at
> this.
And what Brian is arguing is that hetero men's
emotions are rarely expressed atall. Consider "High
Noon" where Grace Kelly's entire roll consists of
dealing with everything Gary Cooper can't bring
himself to say. It's like a ventriloquist's act and
he's the dummy. Think too of Lauren Bacall's "You
don't have to say anything" speeches to Bogart in both
"To Have and Have Not" and "The Big Sleep" -- two
otherwise very different films. It's an unequal
division of romantic labor.
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26394
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:37pm
Subject: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) cinebklyn
hl666 writes:
> Like Barthes I believe that what we
consume in a work of art is meanings,
I can agree with that, though I would
expand it to say that we consume
ideas, meanings, warnings, urgings,
etc.
> and that includes what is usually
narrowly described as visual beauty,
as if that existed by itself, apart from
meanings.
Okay, now I am lost. For me, visual
beauty is not a meaning. It may be an
attribute of a meaning-conveying device,
but it is not meaning in and of itself.
> At the same time, being mired in an
intellectualized version of late Romanticism
like Barthes, I am inclined to say that
what matters isn't what a film means, but
how it means.
But doesn't that send us back to the D.W.
Griffith/racism bind? We focus on the way
Griffith "meant" his racism, and give a free
pass to the racism of the film itself. This is
akin to barebacking: worrying about the
quality of the experience/orgasm and down-
playing any risks about what is being
transmitted during the experience.
> I'll stick to the post-structuralist analysis of
the art object and how it functions.
But doesn't analyzing function also entail an
analysis of (or at least a passing reference to)
what the functioning produces?
Brian
26395
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:49pm
Subject: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> > I suspect the hard edge Truffaut brings to the film
> > stems from the fact that he never got to first base
> > with his star.
> >
> > We can't ALL be Warren Beatty.
>
> But, like, didn't Truffaut sleep with nearly every other female lead
in
> his films? If I recall correctly, the Toubiana-de Baecque bio says
that
> Adjani shut him down, and it is vague about whether he slept with
Lafont
> and Baye - and everyone else was his lover. Maybe I'm forgetting
another
> holdout, but that seems like a competitive record even at the Beatty
> level. - Dan
As I said earlier, I think he was pretty cute, to my taste more than
Warren Beatty, because Truffaut is cute without the narcissim.
I was more surprised at Adjani's rejection as reported by David than
what you go on to say above, and had known of at least some of those
affairs and definitely of Fanny Ardent--nice to know he had something
like that going so near the end (this is degenerating, isn't it?).
Still, no matter where that "hard edge" came from it did a lot toward
making Adele H. a very special movie.
26396
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
> I was more surprised at Adjani's rejection as
> reported by David than
> what you go on to say above, and had known of at
> least some of those
> affairs and definitely of Fanny Ardent--nice to know
> he had something
> like that going so near the end (this is
> degenerating, isn't it?).
>
He compared Adjani to James Dean.
> Still, no matter where that "hard edge" came from it
> did a lot toward
> making Adele H. a very special movie.
>
>
Yep.
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26397
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:58pm
Subject: Re: Re: Defining "Something Else" (was: Twentynine palms too many) cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> But doesn't that send us back to the D.W.
> Griffith/racism bind? We focus on the way
> Griffith "meant" his racism, and give a free
> pass to the racism of the film itself. This is
> akin to barebacking: worrying about the
> quality of the experience/orgasm and down-
> playing any risks about what is being
> transmitted during the experience.
>
WHOA! Watch that metaphor, Brian -- espcially with
this crowd!
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26398
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: Truffaut Films (Was: Twentynine palms too many) sallitt1
> I was more surprised at Adjani's rejection as reported by David than
> what you go on to say above
As described in the bio, Adjani was like a high priestess of acting on the
set, stayed in character, etc. Maybe Truffaut would have had more luck if
he'd cast her in the role of a person who has sex. - Dan
26399
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Golden Age Misunderstood cinebklyn
Blake writes:
> As I interpret the series of posts Brian
wrote on this subject, he doesn't believe
there are many good films centered on
male heterosexual characters.
That is what I meant, with the addition that
most movies do not rub a heterosexual man's
emotions as raw as "Notorious" does Devlin's.
> Brian's view of "Hollywood masculinity" may
in fact still be the common one, but it is one I
always argue against and don't think is
supported when one really starts looking at
individual movies.
It may well be a personal blind spot. When I
first started watching and responding to films
as a teenager, it was movies that centered on
women that grabbed me most. I adored those
"goddammed Warner Bros. epics" starring Bette
Davis. I know Irving Rapper is not a great
auteur, but to this day I am tremendously moved
by "Now, Voyager."
As for Mankiewicz, what I loved was women
comandeering the perogatives of male behavior
without having to shut down their emotions as
payment for such appropriations. (Of course, all
of this was realized retrospectively. I had my
first inkling in my early twenties when I noticed
that the filmmakers I loved most centered their
movies mostly on women.)
As for foreign films, in NYC Channel 13 played
Bergman and Anonioni movies every afternoon
the summer of my sophomore year in high
school -- so I was exposed to yet more films
centering on women. To a queerboi learning to
structure and express his identity, this heavy
dose of cinematic estrogen was both potent and
life-changing.
> I may have missed it, Brian, but I have not
seen you mention one Western. Not one.
Not much of a Western fan anymore. I liked
them very much as a teenager, but less so as I
have gotten older. I don't even like Mankiewicz's
Western. LOL.
> beginning in 1946 with "My Darling Clementine"
(John Ford) and "Canyon Passage" (Jacques
Tourneur). More sensitive films than those two
you won't find, and the male characters (as well
as the female ones) are created with wonderful
wholeness and depth of feeling.
I will have to look at them again. I have a vague
memory of liking "My Darling Clementine," but
Ford's men have never moved me much.
As for Huston, I think hi work contains one of the
most thorough-going critiques of masculinity in
cinema, and at the same time he still manages to
hold out hope -- not much and not in every film --
but it is there. It maybe a matter of temperment,
but I respond more to Huston's bleak humanism
than to Ford's ambivalent sentimentality.
Brian
26400
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:20pm
Subject: Re: Huston [Was: Golden Age Misunderstood] cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> As for Huston, I think hi work contains one of the
> most thorough-going critiques of masculinity in
> cinema, and at the same time he still manages to
> hold out hope -- not much and not in every film --
> but it is there. It maybe a matter of temperment,
> but I respond more to Huston's bleak humanism
> than to Ford's ambivalent sentimentality.
>
Ah but is Huston as bleak as all that? Think of"beat
the Devil" (dialogue by Truman Capote -- with a.d.
Stephen Sondheim manning the clapper) "The List of
Adrian Messenger" is pretty cheery too -- being a
costume romp and all. And then there's peerless black
wit of "Prizzi's Honor."
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