Home    Film    Art     Other: (Rants, Obits)    Links    About    Contact
a_film_by Main Page
Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by

This group is dedicated to discussing film as art from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.

Important: The copyright of each post below is owned by the person who wrote the post, and reproducing it in any form requires that person's permission. It is possible to email the author of any post by finding a post they have written in the a_film_by archives at http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/messages and emailing them from that Web site.


26701   From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:44am
Subject: Re: OT: Popular music sucking Was: Favorite Preminger films  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>

Kevin, I would love to continue this discussion but it is totally
OT and I think we should move it to some other venue, such as the
convenient OT line. OK? JPC
26702  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:53am
Subject: Re: Tashlin  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin
wrote:
> Jean-Pierre quoted:
>
> ""So this is that kingdom of heaven/So
> this is that sweet wonderland..." (to avoid being totally OT, this
> has a Tashlin connection). "
>
> "Straight through the portal now / We'll be immortal now ..." -
one of
> my favourite zany couplets in all American cinema !!!!!!
>
> 'Adrian Slept Here'

This is the secret of what bliss is
For bliss is what your kiss is,
At last I understand.
So this is that kingdom of heaven
And here on the threshold we stand
While angels tell of love
Don't break the spell of love
Hold my hand.

JPC (who didn't write those words, just memorized them from watching
the movie at the Studio Parnasse around 1958 and singing them after
the show to Michel Delahaye who wondered how I could have memorized
the whole thing, but actually I had heard the song on radio weeks or
even a year before -- the BBC of course).
26703  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:04am
Subject: Re: Re: OT: Popular music sucking Was: Favorite Preminger films  cellar47


 
If your mem'ry serves you well,
We were goin' to meet again and wait,
So I'm goin' to unpack all my things
And sit before it gets too late.
No man alive will come to you
With another tale to tell,
But you know that we shall meet again
If your mem'ry serves you well.
This wheel's on fire,
Rolling down the road,
Best notify my next of kin,
This wheel shall explode!

If your mem'ry serves you well,
I was goin' to confiscate your lace,
And wrap it up in a sailor's knot
And hide it in your case.
If I knew for sure that it was yours . . .
But it was oh so hard to tell.
But you knew that we would meet again,
If your mem'ry serves you well.
This wheel's on fire,
Rolling down the road,
Best notify my next of kin,
This wheel shall explode!

If your mem'ry serves you well,
You'll remember you're the one
That called on me to call on them
To get you your favors done.
And after ev'ry plan had failed
And there was nothing more to tell,
You knew that we would meet again,
If your mem'ry served you well.
This wheel's on fire,
Rolling down the road,
Best notify my next of kin,
This wheel shall explode!



--- jpcoursodon wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a...
> wrote:
> >
>
> Kevin, I would love to continue this discussion
> but it is totally
> OT and I think we should move it to some other
> venue, such as the
> convenient OT line. OK? JPC
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26704  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:33am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> As for the lyrics, well, you can start replacing "la la la la"
> with: "This isn't sometime this is always" and "This is not just
> midsummer madness/ Darling this is love."
>
Is that all I get of the song? Usually, when this comes up, you or
David write out the whole thing. Just kidding, as I'm motivated to
find that Parker session. I know everything is available for Bird
completists in those heavyweight collections, which can be
expensive, but I'll go look and see what's out there.

> > > > > I am really glad I didn't lose my Preminger virginity
> > > watching
> > > > > SKIDOO.

> > > > It's not my favorite of his either, but should we be so
> > dismissive
> > > > of a movie that has obviously given so many others so much
> > > pleasure?
> > >
>
> Well, you guys may be right, what do I know. I saw the damn
thing
> 25 years ago or more. Maybe I'd like it today. I'll give it a try
if
> I can. JPC

As I said earlier, I'm persuaded to give it another look thirty-five
years later too. But I've been thinking about the things its
enthusiasts have said all day and find the question in my mind is
this: Is it like seeing a good Preminger movie on a bad acid trip?
Or is it like seeing a bad Preminger movie on a good acid trip?

And no, that is not a direct quote from a very obscure Godard film.

Blake
26705  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:57am
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  cellar47


 
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
Is it like seeing a good Preminger movie on a
> bad acid trip?
> Or is it like seeing a bad Preminger movie on a good
> acid trip?
>
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26706  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:18am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Blake Lucas wrote:
> Is it like seeing a good Preminger movie on a
> > bad acid trip?
> > Or is it like seeing a bad Preminger movie on a good
> > acid trip?
> >
> Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
>
> __________________________________________________

You will note that David is silent Re: "This Is Always."
26707  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:35am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
> OK, so I got my gurus mixed up, but you still haven't told us why
> you loathe the film.

Because Stewart is an insufferable ham in it, and because the score
sucks - not because it's Ellington, but because Ellington didn't know
how to compose for film. As I believe I remarked before, no one even
seems to have spotted for him (=indicated where music goes) before he
wrote it. It plays like music in a cheapo film where it was just laid
on with a trowel. Beyond that, the whole film, IMO, is one
long "winning move," to borrow an expression from Farber. But don't
just listen to me - look up what Mourlet said, in his review of The
Cardinal. My impression is that Anatomy hasn't been turning up on a lot
of Best of Preminger lists here.

On the other hand, Lee Remick is very beautiful and very sexy in it.
26708  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:09am
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:

>
> I heard that Jaglom secretly recorded Welles at the Ma Maison lunches
> until he got found out and had to yield the tapes. If true, it's
> reprehensible.
>
> Richard

It's true, and when Gary Graver called him on it in print he dismissed
him, in print, as a parasite. Some people even thing the shopck of
learning that Jaglom was taping ("you wearin' a wire, pardner?") killed
Welles. I know it's true because I naively called Jaglom for an
interview after Welles' death. Not only did he tell me he had a tape of
Welles talking about the interview he did w. me, which Jaglom offered
to play for me, he told me he had the "prints" of Quixote and Other
Side siting in his office. My impression retrospectively is that I was
talking to a pathological liar. But at the end of the day, he's a
terrible filmmaker, so trhere's nothing to offset his lunacy, treachery
and destructivenss. He comes from a family of Swiss bankers. He could
have financed Big Brass Ring instead of one of his ego-fests. He's
someone who took from Welles and gave nothing in return.

And I don't think Jaglom is a frequent contributor to charity, which
Spielberg certainly is. Cradle was killed by the producer's stupid gaff
of lying to the head of Uni classics about it not having been ofered
elsewhere (two sources, one a lawyer who was in the room), and not
revived by Spielberg because didn't want Amy Irving to go off to
Cinnecita to play Welles' wife. It's a silly reason, but a human one.
And Spielberg didn't slap Welles' mug on his own goddam films and go
around town portraying himself as Welles' friend and champion. FX
Feeney, who's in Jaglom's next, tells me that he's gotten beter, but
I've stopped looking. Last time I did, in the 80s, there was lots of
room for improvement. Whereas Spielberg's recent work has been prety
good.

Jaglom's finest hour is in an Andre S. Labarthe essay film about Welles
called The Big O. Andre had Laszlo Szabo, playing a drunk filmmaker,
cross-question Jaglom about the secret taping. It's at the end, and
besides seeing a villain pushed to the wall, I promise you'll be
rolling on the floor because of Szabo's mixture of drunken drawl and
Hungarian accent (his English is terrible), which makes it impossible
for Jaglom to be 100% sure of what's being said to him. I hope it makes
it out on tape one of these days. There are things I disapproved of
about the film at the time, but no one who saw it felt that Jaglom had
gotten anything he didn't richly deserve.
26709  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:22am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Fred Camper wrote:
> Richard Modiano wrote:
>
>
You have to also put this in the context of 60s nuttiness:
> "What kind of crazy trip are these guys on," is presumably what
they
> were thinking.

This sounds as funny as the scene at the beginning of Fear and
Loathing where Thompson and his attorney pick up the hitchhiker and
subsequently make no atempt to "maintain."

>
> Meanwhile it turned out that David was thinking mostly of "Skidoo,"
> about which he is no doubt right. But even that long take that
opens "In
> Harm's Way," with its diversions to a variety of different scenes,
is
> arguably disconnected in subtle ways, and there are strange and
very
> great camera movements in "Fallen Angel" whose greatness comes not
> perhaps from the sense they are broken but certainly not from
seeming
> seamlessly smooth. And the great cut I mentioned in "Angel Face" is
> great because it is a break.

I'm very interested in this, because I think it establishes the
continuity (no pun intended) between the classical films and the
fragmented late ones. And let me repeat here, although I already
mentioned it a year ago, that when I had the great pleasure of
chating with Annette Michelson at Harvard she brought up Bunny Lake
Is Missing as a film she quite liked.

I watched a bit of Fallen Angel last night to unwind, and it
reaffirmed what is certainly a personal preference: I listed 6 films,
2 from each period, and added that I prefer them prety much in that
order. This is a statement of preference, not ultimate value. I just
like the early, sexy ones best. So, to repeat myself:

Daisy Kenyon
Angel Face,
Advise and Consent
The Cardinal
Bunny Lake Is Missing (with a nod to Michelson's taste)
Such Good Friends

I love the way Darnell says, "So? (long beat) I'm back."

And The Brad, it would be interesting to make a film where the
audience is the jury, but Anatomy of a Murder isn't it. Maybe La
Machine (Vechialli) is. OP was being his usual bombastic promoter
self when he said that.
26710  
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:09am
Subject: Re: Austin Pendleton (Was: Favorite Preminger films)  dreyertati


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jess_l_amortell wrote:
>
> >
> > I always felt the soul of SKIDOO was Austin
> > Pendleton's sweetheart of a '60s draft resister,
> > arriving in prison with his personal supply of
> > blotter acid (which of course Jackie Gleason
> > unwittingly samples while licking a stamp).
> >
>
> Austin Pendleton is not only a superb comic character
> actor, he's a playwright as well. "Orson's Shadow,"
> his play about Welles directing Olivier in a
> production of Ionesco's "Rhinocerous" has been very
> well recieved. I believe our Jonathan Rosenbaum has
> seen it, and knows a lot about Pendleton's work.

Not a whole lot, actually. But I've hung out with him on two
occasions--once in NY when he was working on the play and once in
Chicago when he presented an early version of the play at
Steppenwolf. I quite liked the latter as a play largely about acting
and being an actor....On the subject of SKIDOO, I once told him how
important the movie was to me and some of my friends, and he
replied, "It has its place."
26711  
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:15am
Subject: Re: Restorations  dreyertati


 
>
> If you do read this Jonathan, please accept my apology.
>
> Blake

No problem.
26712  
From: "allegra@..."
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:17am
Subject: Re: Re: Austin Pendleton (Was: Favorite Preminger films)  allegra423


 
Pendleton had a very engaging and (depending on the extent of your Wellesian knowledge base) enlightening conversation with Christopher Welles Wednesday night following the show. Rumor has it that it will be excerpted on one of the Sunday morning shows.

Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jess_l_amortell wrote:
>
> >
> > I always felt the soul of SKIDOO was Austin
> > Pendleton's sweetheart of a '60s draft resister,
> > arriving in prison with his personal supply of
> > blotter acid (which of course Jackie Gleason
> > unwittingly samples while licking a stamp).
> >
>
> Austin Pendleton is not only a superb comic character
> actor, he's a playwright as well. "Orson's Shadow,"
> his play about Welles directing Olivier in a
> production of Ionesco's "Rhinocerous" has been very
> well recieved. I believe our Jonathan Rosenbaum has
> seen it, and knows a lot about Pendleton's work.

Not a whole lot, actually. But I've hung out with him on two
occasions--once in NY when he was working on the play and once in
Chicago when he presented an early version of the play at
Steppenwolf. I quite liked the latter as a play largely about acting
and being an actor....On the subject of SKIDOO, I once told him how
important the movie was to me and some of my friends, and he
replied, "It has its place."





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26713  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:09am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  cinebklyn


 
Fred writes:

> My position was that what was amazing was the
kind of continuities that Preminger created

&

> But even that long take that opens "In Harm's
Way," with its diversions to a variety of different
scenes, is arguably disconnected in subtle ways,

&

> And the great cut I mentioned in "Angel Face"
is great because it is a break.

&

> One of the people I recounted it to was John
Belton, who later wrote an article that concluded
that Preminger's space was both continuous and
broken.

I think that Preminger creates a unified space in
which various lines of power, communication,
feeling, morality, and discourse crisscross,
intermingle, separate, comment upon, and challenge
each other.

The interplay of these various lines is what gives
the impression of the space being broken. I see
the space less as being broken, but in a constant
state of fluid reconfigurement. In the films of
the late '60's and beyond, this reconfigurement
becomes ever more radical and realignment
occurs with greater rapidity.

As for cutting, in the final scene in the Senate,
Preminger has a devastating cut when he isolates
Van Ackeman (George Grizzard) from the rest of
his colleagues. Preminger removes him from all
lines and connections in the space.

Brian
26714  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:43am
Subject: Re: Porgy and Bess  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> Do not under any circumstances miss it!
>
> It's rarely shown as the Gershwin estate dislikes it.
> A few years back they tried to "replace" it with an
> "official" film version shot with a european opera
> company -- that sank without a trace. Goldwyn's
> production, directed by Preminger is "impure" in a
> literal sense, but Sammy Davis Jr. was BORN to play
> "Sportin' Life" and his "There's a Boat That's Leavin'
> Soon For New York" is a movie musical high point as is
> his "It Ain't Necessarily So." Dandrige is lovely,
> Poitier is heartbreaking, and Pearl Bailey is Pearl
> Bailey.

I second the above, and it is very hard to see now. I was aware of
what David says about the Gershwin estate but have never understood
their antipathy. It's beautifully done, very moving, the music
comes over beautifully. I never saw the original show so don't know
the "impurities." "Carmen Jones" is not exactly pure Bizet, is it?
And wasn't in earlier stage incarnation either. I never heard of
any other theatrical classic that wasn't interpreted in some way.
How does this version play? That plainly should be our concern.

When I first saw this in 1958 I had never heard of Sammy Davis Jr.
I found him riveting in that role and in those numbers--so much I
can't imagine anyone else in the role. Interestingly, I have never
taken to him the same way since, but admit he wasn't too well served
in movies.

>
> This was a Preminger that ranked very high among the
> "Movie" group.

I didn't know this--saw many issues of "Movie" but somehow missed
their admiration of this one (though not of Preminger, of course).
>
> No idea as to the state of the print.

I think it should be good. As I recall when the film did surface
for a showing in the early 80s at UCLA (great to see it again), it
was in good shape, with good color. I believe it was Technicolor,
or would have been faded.

>
> Just GO!

Yes, screenings are rare--I don't know what it takes to arrange one.
You probably have a better chance of someone coming to the door and
giving you your own 35 print of "Skidoo!"
>
> --- Brian Charles Dauth
> wrote:
> > Preminger's "Porgy and Bess" will be playing
> > at the American Museum of the Moving Image
> > in one week.
> >
> > SPECIAL OPENING EVENT
> > Saturday, May 14 +
> > Sunday, May 15
> > 3:00 + 6:30 p.m.
> > PORGY AND BESS
> > 1959, 136 mins. Directed by Otto Preminger
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26715  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:54am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

> Because Stewart is an insufferable ham in it

But surely Preminger's point is that Stewart's CHARACTER is always
performing, always hamming it up and reminding people that he's just
an ignorant country lawyer. It's actually a quite brilliant critique
of Stewart's small-town boy persona.
26716  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:04am
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

> It's true, and when Gary Graver called him on it in print he
dismissed
> him, in print, as a parasite. Some people even thing the shopck of
> learning that Jaglom was taping ("you wearin' a wire, pardner?")
killed
> Welles.

I recall Jaglom claiming that he was taping the conversations with
Welles' permission, and that if you actually listen to the tapes, you
can hear Welles saying things like "Are you getting this?". Maybe
that's a lie...but you have to wonder why Jaglom would bother telling
a lie that's so easy to disprove.

And even is the accusations are 100 per cent true, I have to say that
this doesn't sound so bad to me. Surely Jaglom must have been
motivated by respect for Welles, however misguided - a feeling that
everything Welles said deserved to be preserved.
26717  
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:29am
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films  sallitt1


 
> My impression is that Anatomy hasn't been turning up on a lot
> of Best of Preminger lists here.

Both David and Jean-Pierre put it at the top, and I put it second after
DAISY.

The usual line, which I agree with, is that ANATOMY is the film where
Stewart's acting tricks are exposed as such. Which makes him (or rather
the character) look hammy, even though his biggest acting in ANATOMY is no
bigger than in Stewart's other films. - Dan
26718  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films  cellar47


 
--- hotlove666 wrote:

>
> Because Stewart is an insufferable ham in it,

WHOA! He's playing a lawyer you know

and
> because the score
> sucks - not because it's Ellington, but because
> Ellington didn't know
> how to compose for film. As I believe I remarked
> before, no one even
> seems to have spotted for him (=indicated where
> music goes) before he
> wrote it. It plays like music in a cheapo film where
> it was just laid
> on with a trowel.

"Laying it on with a trowel" is an excellent technique
-- utilized to the full in the greatest motion picture
ever made.

The Ellington score is one of my favorite Ellington
compositions.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26719  
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:12pm
Subject: Re: Spike Lee and Preminger (Was Re: Preminger and Narration; Resnais, Denis  sallitt1


 
> Speaking of Spike, I've always been fond of "School
> Daze."

I like this film too - along with DO THE RIGHT THING and CROOKLYN, it's my
favorite Lee. I saw it after doing research on early African-American
cinema for the AFI Catalog, and I was struck with how the issues of
identity that were hot topics in the 1915 black press were still on Lee's
mind.

A fairly recent film that seemed to me to owe a lot to the Preminger 60s
social epics was John Sayles' CITY OF HOPE. - Dan
26720  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Porgy and Bess  cellar47


 
--- Blake Lucas wrote:

> I was aware of
> what David says about the Gershwin estate but have
> never understood
> their antipathy. It's beautifully done, very
> moving, the music
> comes over beautifully. I never saw the original
> show so don't know
> the "impurities."

It was seen as being to "show biz" and mroe a musical
than an opera. The Estate wanted a full-press opera --
not an all-star jamboree.


>
> When I first saw this in 1958 I had never heard of
> Sammy Davis Jr.
> I found him riveting in that role and in those
> numbers--so much I
> can't imagine anyone else in the role.
> Interestingly, I have never
> taken to him the same way since, but admit he wasn't
> too well served
> in movies.
>

Movies can't capture everything he did. He was a live
performer. And I mean LIVE. Prior to "Porgy and Bess"
I had seen him on stage in "Mr. Wonderful" a nicely
ramshackle show business musical in which he srarred
with Jack Carter, the Will Mastin Trio and Olga James
-- who played Cindy Lou in "Carmen Jones." SHE gotto
sing the title song. The show was about a
singer-dancer making the bigtime. Samy had almost
every number save the title one. Then when it was over
as an encore he did 20 minutes of his act.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26721  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  cellar47


 
--- jpcoursodon wrote:

> > __________________________________________________
>
> You will note that David is silent Re: "This Is
> Always."
>
>
>

My favorite version is by Betty Carter.



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26722  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:27pm
Subject: The Last of Skidoo  cellar47


 
Before we bring down the curtain on "Skidoo" (raising
it up again when it gets the national re-release it
deserves) it should be noted that its screenplay is
the handiwork of Doran William Cannon, who also wrote
the ineffable "Brewster McCloud" -- which starred
Austin Pendelton's iconographic "kid brother," Bud
Cort.

You will also note:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0134189/

That Doran William Cannon passed away in March.

Sad.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26723  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> >
> > OK, so I got my gurus mixed up, but you still haven't told us
why
> > you loathe the film.
>
> Because Stewart is an insufferable ham in it, and because the
score
> sucks - not because it's Ellington, but because Ellington didn't
know
> how to compose for film. As I believe I remarked before, no one
even
> seems to have spotted for him (=indicated where music goes) before
he
> wrote it. It plays like music in a cheapo film where it was just
laid
> on with a trowel. Beyond that, the whole film, IMO, is one
> long "winning move," to borrow an expression from Farber. But
don't
> just listen to me - look up what Mourlet said, in his review of
The
> Cardinal. My impression is that Anatomy hasn't been turning up on
a lot
> of Best of Preminger lists here.
>
> On the other hand, Lee Remick is very beautiful and very sexy in
it.

I'm really disappointed by your "argument." If Stewart is an
insufferable ham in ANATOMY, then he is one in most of his films.
Also, don't forget he's playing a lawywer, a performer, and a large
amount of the character's performance is courtroom theatrics (the
character admits it himself). So Stewart is just playing the part.

The music: I am a great fan of Ellington and have been since age 15
when i first heard that magical 78 of "Concerto for Cootie"
and "Bojangles" on the flip side, but I'll admit his music for the
film is not great film music (although it's pretty good Ellington
music and it's nice to hear Harry Carney's gorgeous tone -- among
others -- on a movie soundtrack). Incidentally I don't like the idea
of Ellington himself playing a fictitious musician going by the
ridiculous name of "Pie Eye" while Stewart's country lawyer plays
piano just like Ellington (everything and everybody -- except
Biegler -- in the movie is condescending, if not contemptuous,
toward jazz and jazz musicians, and I don't think OP even realized
it). HOWEVER I don't think the music is such a big deal. The film
would be just as good without the Ellington score (arguably even
better, if possible, with a different one. And actually there is
very little music, and it appears rarely in dramatic moments. Most
of the film is without any music at all.

"Winning move": I don't remember where Farber uses the expression
and I have no idea what it means. So I can't respond. Sounds pretty
weak as a blanket condamnation of the film, though.

I haven't read Mourlet on "Anatomy". And even if all the best
critics told me the film is a piece of shit it would still be one of
my favorites by OP as well as one of my favorites, period. . So
there.

JPC
26724  
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:56pm
Subject: Mizoguchi on DVD -- in Japan -- at last  michaelkerpan


 
It looks like the first Mizoguchi DVD from Japan is finally being
released -- and the pick is a rare one -- The Straits of Love and Hate:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=JVD-3051

Due out at the end of June.

Anyone here ever seen this?

Does this portend additional releases -- or will it be an isolated one
like Naruse's "Ginza Cosmetics" (which came out several years before
the next ones -- finally due this month).

MEK
26725  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:59pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > > __________________________________________________
> >
> > You will note that David is silent Re: "This Is
> > Always."
> >
> >
> >
>
> My favorite version is by Betty Carter.
>

Me too! But there are not so many versions anyway.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26726  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  cellar47


 
--- jpcoursodon wrote:

> >
>
> Me too! But there are not so many versions anyway.
> >
> >


I have no idea as to why it's not a "standard."


"This isn’t sometimes, this is always.
This isn’t maybe, this is always.
This is love,
The real beginning of forever,
This isn’t just mid summer madness,
A passing glow, a moment’s gladness,
Yes it’s love.
I knew it on the night we met,
You tied a string around my heart,
So how can I forget you.
With every kiss I know that
This is always"

--Harry Warren and Mack Gordon



Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26727  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:10pm
Subject: THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel  thebradstevens


 
Just started reading Sam Fuller's novel of THE BIG RED ONE, and was
amused to find that several of the French characters have been named
after French film critics and directors - Moullet, Colonel
Lourcelles, General Tavernier.
26728  
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  joe_mcelhaney


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> "This isn't sometimes, this is always.
> This isn't maybe, this is always.
> This is love,
> The real beginning of forever,
> This isn't just mid summer madness,
> A passing glow, a moment's gladness,
> Yes it's love.
> I knew it on the night we met,
> You tied a string around my heart,
> So how can I forget you.
> With every kiss I know that
> This is always"
>
> --Harry Warren and Mack Gordon

Pardon me if I've missed the reference already but let us not forget
the source for this song -- Three Little Girls in Blue, the greatest
musical ever made by a non-auteur, IMO. Alas, the song itself was
foolishly cut by Zanuck simply as revenge against George Montgomery,
who sang it in the film. (I hope I don't sound hopelessly square to
the jazz fans here if I say that my favorite version of the song is
Jo Stafford's.)

However, since this is supposed to be an auteurist room I would argue
that if the film has an auteur it is Mack Gordon, the most underrated
great lyricist of the Hollywood musical, the creator of lyrics which
are endlessly playful and inventive. I constantly laugh out loud at
his wit and imagination. His playfulness with the English language
is as brilliant to me as most of the great dialogue writer/auteurs of
the thirties and forties: Sturges, Wilder, etc.

"I'm a stickler for propriety/I'm as proper as a noun" (Celeste Holm
in Three Little Girls)

As I finish writing these words, Judy Garland has just finished
singing another Gordon song, Friendly Star, on TCM.




>
>
>
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26729  
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Porgy and Bess  jess_l_amortell


 
> "Carmen Jones" is not exactly pure Bizet, is it?
> And wasn't in earlier stage incarnation either.

But the Bizet estate did prevent "Carmen Jones" (which surely no one even expects to be "Carmen") from being shown in France for years. (I only know that because it's come up on a_f_b before.)

I remember reading, not all that long ago, an article detailing the Gershwin estate's specific objections. In addition to musical cuts, I seem to recall that some reworking of the drama was also at issue, but I can't remember where I saw this.

The film has been screened in recent years at such locations as Brooklyn College and the Adam Clayton Powell Jr. State Office Building ("Photo ID required for admission"). I've seen listings in the Voice but could never get there. According to one (non-cinephile) report it was "a scratchy, deteriorated print" (http://1067litefm.theatermania.com/content/news.cfm/story/1799).  No matter.
26730  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  cellar47


 
--- joe_mcelhaney wrote:
(I hope I don't sound
> hopelessly square to
> the jazz fans here if I say that my favorite version
> of the song is
> Jo Stafford's.)
>

Are you kidding? You'd be hopelessly square oif you
didn't. Everyone should own a copy of "Jo + Jazz"
whose highlight is her rendition of Duke Ellington and
Billy Strayhorn's "Daydream."

So good, I'm surprised that Michael Snow didn't use it
in "Rameanu's Nephew by Diderot (Thanx to Denis Young)
by Wilma Schoen."

>
> As I finish writing these words, Judy Garland has
> just finished
> singing another Gordon song, Friendly Star, on TCM.
>
>

From "Summer Stock" by the great Charles Walters.

At the end of the take of that number (a big close-up
of Judy) Walters yelled "Somebody throw me a towel --
I've just come!"




Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26731  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:

> But surely Preminger's point is that Stewart's CHARACTER is always
> performing, always hamming it up and reminding people that he's just
> an ignorant country lawyer. It's actually a quite brilliant critique
> of Stewart's small-town boy persona.

As in hilarious line you paraphrased here recently--"I'm just a simple
country film critic (lawyer)." He's anything but simple and knows it,
but uses that persona, just as Stewart did. And intriguingly, the
later part of Stewart's career (Mann, Hitchcock, Ford) takes the mask
off that simplicity in the same way--for that matter, "It's a
Wonderful Life" certainly turned him in that direction in his first
film after the war ("You call this a happy home. What did we have to
have all these kids for, anyway?").

I didn't vote for "Anatomy" as a favorite, but it was not too far
off. For me, the verdict is still out on its ultimate standing. I've
tended to watch it focusing on its cynical side, with this side of
Preminger inevitably more foregrounded here and so a less interesting
balance in the ambiguities (though these courtroom scenes are
enjoyable in a way that reminds me of "Angel Face").
Anyway, "Anatomy" is one I'm wanting to get back to soon. But I don't
know how Stewart's performance could possibly be assailed, any more
than George C. Scott's equally brilliant one. They are playing
lawyers. Know any, Bill? I was in a meeting with one the other day.
Sincerity does not seem to be their middle name.

I also just can't go along on what you say about the score. Even if
it isn't cued in the usual way, it seems to me to be exactly what
Preminger wanted. You don't go out looking for the Duke to do your
score on a whim. The man was one of the greatest musical minds of all
time. He did everything well.

Blake
26732  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:

>
> I also just can't go along on what you say about the score. Even if
> it isn't cued in the usual way, it seems to me to be exactly what
> Preminger wanted. You don't go out looking for the Duke to do your
> score on a whim. The man was one of the greatest musical minds of
all
> time. He did everything well.

The use of Ellington's music, taken together with Ellington's cameo,
suggests that Preminger's attitude towards film scoring is very
similar to Clint Eastwood's: this might be summed up as 'I personally
like jazz, and I'm damned well going to use it'.

And some of Eastwood's later films (MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD
AND EVIL, MYSTIC RIVER) have a real Preminger 'feel' to them.
26733  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> >
> > "This isn't sometimes, this is always.
> > This isn't maybe, this is always.
> > This is love,
>
First, thanks David for sending out the full lyric. I'm on the
verge of going out to get the Earl Coleman, Charlie Parker and
Errol Garner performance JPC mentioned but will keep Betty Carter
and Jo Stafford in mind, because I like both of them (Stafford
did probably the best known record of one of my all-time personal
favorites "Haunted Heart" by Dietz and Schwartz).

>
> Pardon me if I've missed the reference already but let us not
forget
> the source for this song -- Three Little Girls in Blue, the
greatest
> musical ever made by a non-auteur, IMO. >
>
I liked this musical too (the one time I saw it but was in a theatre
and a nice print), but it would have been even better if they had
not cut "This Is Always."

Fetching as the film is (and yes, maybe Mack Gordon deserves much of
the credit--of course it also has Vera-Ellen), I still don't know
what I think of director H. Bruce Humberstone, as I really believe
that Harry Horner made a more subtle film in his "Vicki" remake of
"I Wake Up Screaming." On the other hand, "South Sea Sinner," which
Truffaut was keen on, is very appealing, stylish direction in the
cafe scenes especially and good characterizations, and "Purple Mask"
has Colleen Miller so is almost sublime by definition.

Blake
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Mail
> > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26734  
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:12pm
Subject: Re: Mizoguchi on DVD -- in Japan -- at last  tharpa2002


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:


"Has anyone here ever seen this ["Straits of Love and Hate"]?"

I don't think it's been screened in the US, so probably not many
people have seen it. "Aien Kyo"/"Starights of Love and Hate" was made
after "Gion no Shimai" and was almost as good. He made it for Shinko
Studio with the same crew that worked on "Gion no Shimai." If the
DVD was mastered from the print screened at the National Museum of
Modern Art in Tokyo it will be passably good. I would describe "Aien
Kyo" as having elements of "Taki no Shiraito" and looking forward
to "Zangiku Monogatari"/"A Tale of the Last Chrysanthamum" so it's an
important film.

"Does this portend additional releases -- or will it be an isolated
one like Naruse's 'Ginza Cosmetics' (which came out several years
before the next ones -- finally due this month)."

About 20 Mizoguchi film were released on laser disc in the early
1990s (mostly the Shochiku and Daiei owned films)so there's a chance
that at least the Shochiku films will be released. Daiei's library
has passed through many hands in the last 10 years and I'm not sure
who owns it now, but their prints were in generally excellent
condition and it would be a shame if these prints don't surface again.

Richard
26735  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:27pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
Incidentally I don't like the idea
> of Ellington himself playing a fictitious musician going by the
> ridiculous name of "Pie Eye" while Stewart's country lawyer plays
> piano just like Ellington.

I posted on this subject right after reading Brad's first response
and before reading some of these others, which inevitably said
similar things--about Stewart's performance and Ellington's music.

But the above point is one only you made and I think we do have to
make this a point against the movie. Why did he call him "Pie Eye?"
That really annoyed me (I forgot about it before in my eagerness to
defend Duke's score). Stewart gets a real name (Paul Biegler), yet
it's the ghost of Ellington's own piano playing we hear when his
fingers hit the keys, while Duke gets that ridiculous name yet when
he plays he is the real deal. Even good movies can get mighty
strange sometimes. Why did Duke have to appear at all? If he
hadn't we could have suspended disbelief that a "simple country
lawyer" seems to be in the wrong career and should be a great jazz
pianist instead.

In Bill's defense, JPC, at least he gave points to the always
compelling (and yes, sexy) Lee Remick, one of the last great female
stars to emerge in the classical era. An asset to everything she
was in, I always felt.
26736  
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:43pm
Subject: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger)  scil1973


 
"Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humbersotne, Harry Horner...it's like poetry.

What a great little post there, Blake!

First of all, "Haunted Heart." I know it through the great Peter Stampfel's
version on his ace 1995 album YOU MUST REMEMBER THIS. You may want to avoid it,
though, since it's a hilarious desecration albeit an affectionate one. He
does it in the style of early doo-wop (think The Diamonds' "Little Darlin'").
Here's what he says about it in the liner notes: "I only heard this song once
after it's (sic) 1948 heyday - in Sym's clothing store over the PA in 1981. An
uncommonly time specific song, it could not have been written five years earlier
or later. I've always loved the 50's, early 60's r&r approach to older
songs." Where can I find Jo Stafford's version? And to think Xgau called it an
"understandably forgotten copyright."

And sheesh - just as I was getting ready to brush up on my Mitchell Leisen
and Edward Ludwig, now I have two more lessers to tackle. Thank Jack Smith
summer is here.

Kevin John


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26737  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:15pm
Subject: Re: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger)  cellar47


 
--- LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
Where can I find Jo Stafford's version? And
> to think Xgau called it an
> "understandably forgotten copyright."
>

One place to find it is the Charlie Haden Quartet West
CD, "Haunted Heart" on Gitanes Jazz. Hayden's version
inter[olates Stafford's 1847 recording of the song.



Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
26738  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:22pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:

> I recall Jaglom claiming that he was taping the conversations with
> Welles' permission, and that if you actually listen to the tapes, you
> can hear Welles saying things like "Are you getting this?". Maybe
> that's a lie...but you have to wonder why Jaglom would bother telling
> a lie that's so easy to disprove.

Not if Henry doesn't let anyone hear the tapes, which he hasn't. The
whopper about the "prints" of Other Side and Quixote sitting on his
shelf was also theoretically possible to disprove, too, but it didn't
make it into print, fortunately.
>
> And even is the accusations are 100 per cent true, I have to say that
> this doesn't sound so bad to me. Surely Jaglom must have been
> motivated by respect for Welles, however misguided - a feeling that
> everything Welles said deserved to be preserved.

It's a felony here if you do it over the phone, The Brad. I don't know
about when you do it to someone face to face without telling them, but
I certainly agree with Richard that it's reprehensible.
26739  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:40pm
Subject: Re: THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> Just started reading Sam Fuller's novel of THE BIG RED ONE, and was
> amused to find that several of the French characters have been
named
> after French film critics and directors - Moullet, Colonel
> Lourcelles, General Tavernier.

My copy is inscribed, "For Bill: I know you'll survive this war" - a
reference to the idea that readers, like spectators, are non-
combatants.

As I recall, Moullet is the dogface who says, "Not at Americans!" and
Tavernier is the officer who shoots him, grabs the machine-gun and
then gets shot himself, so that his dead hand on the trigger mows
down the French soldiers around him. All in fun. In the preview cut
of Topaz now available (with the wrong last reel), you can see, as
Stafford and Piccoli are discussing the guest-list about the big
lunch, Stafford's lips say that he wants "Jean-Claude Chabrol" (also
in the script) invited, but Hitchcock thought better of it and looped
Jean-Claude Charne. The anonymous official Devereaux is talking to
says, "Weak, but well-placed."

I understand from Christa that Samantha is on the DVD, and even gets
to smoke a cigar. (Christa was in Cannes when they were shooting the
extras.) She said she wishes there was more of Falkenau on it, but
added, "You can always criticize something, but it's a great DVD." I
asked her if she was getting any residuals and she laughed, then
added (speaking of and for all directors and their heirs), "Someday
the shit is going to hit the fan."
26740  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:43pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:

>
> ("you wearin' a wire, pardner?")

Sock it to him, Bill, David, Richard, and anyone else I'm forgetting to
name.

I don't say that for the noblest of reasons. Of course I'm aware of
Jaglom's "I was the best buddy and protege of the great Orson Welles"
pose. You'd have to live on Mars not to be, even if you hadn't seen
even one HJ film with Orson's likeness at the end as if this was the
OW seal of approval on one more Jaglom masterpiece. I didn't know
about those secret tapings (sounds like the weight is on the "secret"
side--"Are you getting this?" could just mean "Did you get what I
wanted to say to you?"). The word "reprehensible" (Richard) sounds
apt but almost kind. At least Quinlan and Menzies were long-time
partners and friends--a love story--so betrayal in that case is the
stuff of tragedy. You can't say that here.

But the reason I've been enjoying this, honestly, is just that somehow
it makes up for sitting through all those terrible Jaglom films. Why
have I seen so many? I don't know. It's a real mystery to me. I
know that even though I was fed up, this Cannes thing he did played on
my wife's memories of being there and covering it and she enticed me
further with "Anouk Aimee's in it...we both love her." Well, we were
both depressed by it. Still, I had somehow missed "A Safe Place" back
at the beginning, and like a lot of people, in her memory, this one was
different from the others and was "the good one." So we got the tape
and watched it, and at the end she said "I'm sorry."

Everyone has a place in the universe though, so I just want to remind
you all that before he became a director Jaglom had a supporting role
in that wonderful 1968 Haight-Ashbury fever dream "Psych-Out"
(directed by Richard Rush). He played an artist named Warren, and
mid-film either Jack Nicholson or Adam Roarke or Max Julian (I believe
it was one of the three) runs into wherever they are and says to the
other two (and maybe Susan Strasberg, now one of the hippie population
as well) a line that is truly one of the all time greats:

"Warren's freaking out in the art gallery."

It seems Warren was on a bad acid trip--maybe he got some some of the
same bad stuff Preminger took as he was getting ready to make Skidoo.
26741  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:45pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
Incidentally I don't like the idea
> of Ellington himself playing a fictitious musician going by the
> ridiculous name of "Pie Eye" while Stewart's country lawyer plays
> piano just like Ellington (everything and everybody -- except
> Biegler -- in the movie is condescending, if not contemptuous,
> toward jazz and jazz musicians, and I don't think OP even realized
> it).

Me three.
>
> I haven't read Mourlet on "Anatomy". And even if all the best
> critics told me the film is a piece of shit it would still be one
of
> my favorites by OP as well as one of my favorites, period. . So
> there.
>
It sure was one of Daney's. "Winning move" is a Farber term less
recycled by others than elephant/termite, but worthy of
consideration. It refers to a variety of ways some films (filmmakers,
actors...) seek to ingratiate themeselves with the spectator.
26742  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:51pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:

lol a couple of times.

before he became a director Jaglom had a supporting role
> in that wonderful 1968 Haight-Ashbury fever dream "Psych-Out"
> (directed by Richard Rush).

I recently rewatched Psych-Out for a piece on San Francisco movies.
It's not exactly pro-Love Generation, is it? I think I saw Otto drive
by in his limo in one shot...

Apparently there's a reel of Jaglom and Mazursky improving that was
shot for the party in Other Side. Oja should take all the parts where
Henry looks foolish and put them on the DVD as an extra. I'm sure he
signed a release, at least.
26743  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:52pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  lukethedealer12


 
> Everyone has a place in the universe though, so I just want to remind
> you all that before he became a director Jaglom had a supporting role
> in that wonderful 1968 Haight-Ashbury fever dream "Psych-Out"
> (directed by Richard Rush).

a line that is truly one of the all time greats:
>
> "Warren's freaking out in the art gallery."
>
One of the all-time greats, yes, but I haven't seen the movie in so
long I was one word off, looking at this after posting it.
I believe it was simply "Warren's freaking out in the gallery."

> It seems Warren was on a bad acid trip--maybe he got some some of the
> same bad stuff Preminger took as he was getting ready to make Skidoo.
26744  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:14pm
Subject: Re: Hill and Milius-Now Not So Old (Was:Old, Old Milius Post)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Mathieu Ricordi
wrote:
>
> Quoting Blake Lucas :
> At the discussion, Hill said he felt Cooder surpassed
> > himself in the "Geronimo" score and talked about exactly what
he did
> > and what the compositional elements were (opposing ones, but I
don't
> > want to try to characterize it if I don't remember exactly what
he said). And I kind of agree. I love the score--it suits the film.
>

> I disagree with you completely on the merits of Ry Cooder and
Hill's use
> of him. Though I haven't seen "Long Riders", or "Southern
Comfort",
> the colaborations between the two I have seen have been disaterous
> in the soundtrack department. "Geronimo", whose music you speak
fondly
> of, is a terribly literal rendition of the actions and motifs up on
> screen. The cliched Indian and officer reprises are recycled here
> for even more minimal effect, given Cooder's inexperience with
> orchestral accompaniment (his fair is usually guitar/electrical
> pieces). Music, which in my opinion remains the most neglected
> piece of most filmmaker's puzzles, is often not thought of in terms
> of an art within itself in movies, and is often sprayed all over
the place
> as filler, or booster to certain effects.

This is belated, but I had wanted to at least briefly respond. You
dislike the "Geronimo" score and I like it. I don't think we need to
belabor the point, and I certainly won't try to persuade you to feel
differently about it. I have seen a few other Westerns so believe I
could recognize "cliched Indian and officer reprises" and whether we
agree that it was avoided here, that was the intention. I have the
discussion with Hill on videotape, but don't have either of my two
copies here (they are with two other a_f_b members as a matter of
fact) but when I have one back, I'll get back to this and quote Hill
exactly on what he says Cooder did in the score, just for your
information. "Cliched Indian and officer reprises" by the way, can
be wearisome, but in the right hands can also be effective--in his
score for "They Died With Their Boots On" Max Steiner winds up
integrating "Garry Owen" and conventional Indian themes during the
climax memorably enough that some film music commentators have evoked
Charles Ives as a comparison.

I would have left some of the rest of your post but it's pretty long.
Allow me to remind that you mentioned Herrmann's score for "Vertigo"
and Leone/Morricone. As it happens, I've mentioned music in a lot of
recent posts with different contexts, from Ellington ("Anatomy of a
Murder") to favorite sequences in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"
and "They Live by Night" in which the precise way the music is used
and the music itself (originally an Alfred Newman theme for the first
and Leigh Harline for the second) were vital to the effectiveness of
these sequences, in combination with other cinematic elements.

So, obviously, I am in agreement with you about the importance of
film music, which I dearly love. The only time I ever wrote
encouraging an AFI lifetime achievement award (got a polite "that was
a nice articulate letter but we're passing him over" letter back)
was for Miklos Rozsa; he was still alive and it was a few years
before they began to totally trash the award (would never write
them now on anyone's behalf). We may not love all the same scores,
but you might be interested to know that "Vertigo" is my favorite
score of all time (I know it is a common choice, but that's because
it is so great, and for some of the reasons you said in your post).
And my hands-down favorite score of the last 35 years is Morricone's
for "Once Upon a Time in America."

Blake
26745  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:16pm
Subject: Wild at Heart and neo-noir (was: The End of Skidoo)  hotlove666


 
For JP and other doubters:

I don't think I could have been more appalled by a David Lynch film
than I was by Wild at Heart when I saw it in theatres, but I rewatched
it recently, and I was astonished. Ok, the ending is silly, but it's a
fantastic film. So there may be hope for JP and Skidoo.

As I watched I thought about the following: We recently had a "neo-
noir" vogue, where every indie film going, and a few studio efforts (U
Turn...), had a plot like Wild at Heart - I mean the Sailor-Santos
stuff, not the lovers. But the "neo" in that expression is a little
Orwellian, it seems to me, if you consider how far the genre had been
taken by Godard (Breathless, Pierrot, Made in USA), Truffaut (Shoot,
Bride, Mermaid) and others, all the way through Lynch, whose four noirs
(Blue Velvet, Wild at Heart, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive) better
deserve the prefix "neo-" than their contemporaries, which are more
like "retro-noir." Even Peter Bogdanovich was experimenting in "Dime-a-
Dance," rather than trying to revive the form. And Sin City, which the
Cahiers will be defending at Cannes, is certainly experimental.

Of course the Coens, who are experimenters in their own right, may
nonetheless have helped inspire the neo-noir revival with Blood Simple -
Lynch is to some extent paying tribute to Raising Arizona with the way
he uses Cage (and other elements) in WAH. And certainly Tarantino - who
is experimental to the extent of playing with structure in his first
two - inspired a lot of emulation. For that matter, a whole generation
may have discovered noir through the New Wave, who were not exactly
making The Usual Suspects.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying that you can't revive a genre. People
have periodically done that with the western - Boetticher's westerns
were already purifying the genre after it had been "modernized" even in
the 50s, and Eastwood perhaps doing the same in Unforgiven. I'm just
saying that the 80's-90's neo-noir fad came after the genre had been
stretched and twisted like taffy by some pretty good directors. But in
truth, I don't think neo-noir produced much, except a lot of films that
revelled in the kind of plot twists Lynch was sending up in WAH (1990)
while using the elements of the genre for more srerious purposes. As
Godard and others had done 30 years before.
26746  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:36pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>>
> I recently rewatched Psych-Out for a piece on San Francisco movies.
> It's not exactly pro-Love Generation, is it? I think I saw Otto
drive
> by in his limo in one shot...
>
It's an excellent film, very ambivalent about "the Love Generation."
Everything seems beautiful at first (more so in a longer version Rush
gets out from time to time) and then turns into a nightmare. Bruce
Dern is the deranged but sympathetic "Seeker" as Strasberg's brother--
kind of a deus-ex-machina as the movie takes a grim, tragic turn.

There is a line used as a motif "Everyone has to do their own thing."
The characters initially think of it as a credo--it comes back with an
increasingly bitter edge. And this shows that a movie can have a line
that works seriously for the it along with one like "Warren's freaking
out in the art gallery."

I didn't think of this at all when Psych-Out came to mind, but with
its ambivalences, it nicely complements Premingerian ambiguity, and as
a kind of "hip" movie to show with sympathetically "unhip" Skidoo,
would make a good retro 1968 double feature.
26747  
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:35pm
Subject: Re: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger)  joe_mcelhaney


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Where can I find Jo Stafford's version? And
> > to think Xgau called it an
> > "understandably forgotten copyright."
> >
>
If you just want to hear Stafford sing "Haunted Heart" without Haden's
interpolation there's a Capitol import CD combining two early LPs
called "Autumn in New York/Starring Jo Stafford." Jack Nicholson also
used Stafford's version in the end credits for "The Two Jakes."

But the Haden CD David recommends is worth getting on its own for any
jazz fan/cinephile as it's a concept record attempting to evoke the
feel of Hollywood/Los Angeles/film noir, etc. in the 1940s and '50s:
It opens with the Warners fanfare and the soundtrack of the theme
from "The Maltese Falcon." In addition to Stafford, Haden also
interpolates the great Jeri Southern doing "Ev'ry Time We Say
Goodbye." And David Raksin's theme from "The Bad and the Beautiful" is
also performed.
26748  
From: Adam Lemke
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films  moviemiser412


 
Iıve noticed very few people when listing their favorite Premingerıs
mentioned ³The Man With the Golden Arm.² Does this not have as strong of a
reputation as I thought?

-Adam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26749  
From: Nick Wrigley
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:39pm
Subject: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  peerpee


 
From BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4529877.stm

"Investigators in Rome have reopened the inquiry into the murder of
Italian film director Pier Paolo Pasolini in 1975, say reports on
Italian radio.

It follows statements about the director's death made by the man
imprisoned for nine years for his murder and by a close former aide."

-N>-
26750  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:04pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

> Apparently there's a reel of Jaglom and Mazursky improving that was
> shot for the party in Other Side.

Yes, this was part of an assembly of footage from WIND that was
screened in London (at the NFT) a couple of years ago. Dennis Hopper
was also in that scene.
26751  
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:04pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cinebklyn


 
Kevin John writes:

> And sheesh - just as I was getting ready to
brush up on my Mitchell Leisen and Edward
Ludwig, now I have two more lessers to
tackle.

A brief word for Mitchell Leisen: he is anything
but a lesser.

He was Paramount's best contract director. He
filmed Wilder and Sturges scripts as well as (if
not better) than they did themselves. His sense
of space and mise en scene are second to none.

From "Death Takes A Holiday" (1934) to "The
Mating Game" (1951) he turned out a remarkable
variety of films in different genres.

He turned out great screwball: "Take a Letter,
Darling" and great noir: "No Man of Her Own."
He even made a good pirate movie: "Frenchman's
Creek."

In 1939 Brackett/Wilder wrote two famous scripts:
"Ninotchka" and "Midnight." I just saw both recently,
and "Ninotchka" looks labored beside "Midnight."
In fact, I think "Midnight" is one of the most
perfectly paced films ever.

Finally, as I have indicated before, I am very drawn
to actresses and films that depict powerful,
complicated women. Under Leisen's direction, many
female stars gave career performances: Carole
Lombard, Claudette Colbert, Olivia de Havilland,
Rosalind Russell, Jean Arthur, and Barbara Stanwyck.
Leisen also did very well by Fred MacMurray and
Ray Milland.

All in all, not a lesser in any way.

Brian
26752  
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:09pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films  sallitt1


 
> Iıve noticed very few people when listing their favorite Premingerıs
> mentioned ³The Man With the Golden Arm.² Does this not have as strong of a
> reputation as I thought?

Maybe it doesn't. I rarely hear of it being listed as a favorite: people
often like it, but rarely rave about it. - Dan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26753  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:

>
> A brief word for Mitchell Leisen: he is anything
> but a lesser.

No Swing High, Swing Low? That's the favorite of David Chierichetti,
who wrote a great book on Leisen, if you haven't seen it.
26754  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:14pm
Subject: Re: THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:

> As I recall, Moullet is the dogface who says, "Not at Americans!"
and
> Tavernier is the officer who shoots him, grabs the machine-gun and
> then gets shot himself

No, that's Colonel Lourcelles. Tavernier is the Vichy general. His
scenes were cut from both versions of the film, but can be seen in
the deleted scenes section of the DVD.


> My copy is inscribed, "For Bill: I know you'll survive this war" -
a
> reference to the idea that readers, like spectators, are non-
> combatants.

I'm 100 pages in at the moment. It's a very interesting book. I
wonder how much of this stuff was filmed. There are a few major
scenes (such as the Sergeant appearing to have died, and the camel
race) that don't appear in any version of the film.

> I understand from Christa that Samantha is on the DVD, and even
gets
> to smoke a cigar.

Yes, as part of the documentary. Did she inherit that cigar?
26755  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Favorite Preminger films  cellar47


 
--- Adam Lemke wrote:
> Iıve noticed very few people when listing their
> favorite Premingerıs
> mentioned ³The Man With the Golden Arm.² Does this
> not have as strong of a
> reputation as I thought?
>

It was a "breakthrough" in that Preminger challenged
the code by making a film about drug addiction.
Sinatra, Novak and Eleanor parker are fine, but it's
treatment of drug addiction is painfully corny. Darren
McGavin's pusher isn't all that far from "Reefer
Madness." And that's not McGavin's fault.

Elmer Bernstein's score, however, is amazing -- and
the real star of the film



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26756  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:27pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  cellar47


 
AT LAST!!!!

Prepare for Italian history -- and film history -- to
be rewritten.


--- Nick Wrigley wrote:
> From BBC:
>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4529877.stm
>
> "Investigators in Rome have reopened the inquiry
> into the murder of
> Italian film director Pier Paolo Pasolini in 1975,
> say reports on
> Italian radio.
>
> It follows statements about the director's death
> made by the man
> imprisoned for nine years for his murder and by a
> close former aide."
>
> -N>-
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26757  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cellar47


 
--- hotlove666 wrote:

> No Swing High, Swing Low? That's the favorite of
> David Chierichetti,
> who wrote a great book on Leisen, if you haven't
> seen it.
>
>
And it's a favorite of THIS David too.

Chierichetti's quite singular character, but his
Leisen book is absolutely first-rate.



Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26758  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:

> A brief word for Mitchell Leisen: he is anything
> but a lesser.
>
> He was Paramount's best contract director. He
> filmed Wilder and Sturges scripts as well as (if
> not better) than they did themselves. His sense
> of space and mise en scene are second to none.
>
I think he's been championed here before, right around the time we
were coming in, Brian, or in my case it may have been when I wasn't
yet sure of mechanics of posting. I believe there are a lot of
Leisen fans in the group.

I agree with what you say above. Heretical as it may be to say so,
I don't think Sturges ever quite rose to the level of Leisen as a
director. I do think Wilder did, though not immediately--except in
some special cases, especially "Double Indemnity" which held up well
for me on recent viewing. I like Wilder's collaborations as a
writer with both Brackett and Diamond, but I've always believed it
was his association with art director Alexander Trauner which
belatedly brought out his full directorial mastery.

My favorite Leisen is "Remember the Night" with a Preston Sturges
script. Sturges wouldn't agree, but I'm glad it was Leisen who
directed this one. It's a gem--one of my favorite movies.

Blake
26759  
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:39pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cinebklyn


 
hl666 writes:

> No Swing High, Swing Low?

I did not want to turn it into a treatise.

I just wanted to defend someone I
consider a master. I am surprised that
Curtiz (Leisen's equivalent at Warner's)
gets more attention. I was watching
"Mildred Pierce" last night, and maybe it
was the mini-Preminger binge I went on
last week, but I didn't see any great
visual signature.

Since joining a_f_b, I have been
concentrating more and more on editing
and composition, and while some favorites
have become even more dear to me,
some favorites and even more marginals
have sunk.

> That's the favorite of David Chierichetti,
who wrote a great book on Leisen, if you
haven't seen it.

I think that book is invaluable, though I
think he sees Leisen's decline a little too
soon. But it may be my bias.

Brian
26760  
From: BklynMagus
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:29pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cinebklyn


 
Blake writes:

> Heretical as it may be to say so,
I don't think Sturges ever quite rose
to the level of Leisen as a director.

Heretical or not, it is true. When I
got the dvd of "The Palm Beach Story,"
I was all prepared to give Sturges
another shot visually, but he failed me
again. (I first discovered Sturges in
my '20's along with Wilder, Mankiewicz.
and Huston. I loved writer-directors.
But even then I hated his visual flatness
and poor direction of actors).

> I do think Wilder did, though not
immediately--except in some special cases,
especially "Double Indemnity" which held
up well for me on recent viewing.

Also, "A Foreign Affair"

> I like Wilder's collaborations as a writer
with both Brackett and Diamond

I much prefer Brackett. Wilder loved
Diamond for his ability with the "plumbing"
of a script, but at this point Wilder's films
with him are looking a little mechanical to
me. The plumbing has begun to show.

Also, I think Brackett/Wilder was more a
collaboration of equals. Wilder was self-
conscious about his English. By the time
of Diamond, he was "Billy Wilder" and
Diamond was clearly the lesser partner.
Also, the treatment of women in later
Wilder is much more conventional, even
sexist.

> but I've always believed it was his
association with art director Alexander
Trauner which belatedly brought out his
full directorial mastery.

True, he was a better director visually.

Brian
26761  
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:04pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  joe_mcelhaney


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
>>
> I am surprised that
> Curtiz (Leisen's equivalent at Warner's)
> gets more attention. I was watching
> "Mildred Pierce" last night, and maybe it
> was the mini-Preminger binge I went on
> last week, but I didn't see any great
> visual signature.

WHAT? How could you sit through a film as visually striking
as "Mildred Pierce" and not see a signature? Curtiz's visual style is
certainly different from Preminger's. But it's still quite marked:
that heavily Germanic mise-en-scene with the use of enormous, looming
shadows, the low-angled close-ups, the rapid and slightly zig-zagging
lateral tracks, the portentous placement of mirrors, windows and
staircases. Beyond this, I would say that this style is rarely
decorative but tied to the violent, aggressive, and often masochistic
drives of the characters and the narrative worlds he sets up. Aside
from the fact that he and Leisen were both studio contract directors, I
don't see any comparison.


Anyone who badmouths Curtiz has to meet me after school.
26762  
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:04pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  noelbotevera


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"

> wrote:
> > And even is the accusations are 100 per cent true, I have to say
that
> > this doesn't sound so bad to me. Surely Jaglom must have been
> > motivated by respect for Welles, however misguided - a feeling
that
> > everything Welles said deserved to be preserved.
>
> It's a felony here if you do it over the phone, The Brad. I don't
know
> about when you do it to someone face to face without telling them,
but
> I certainly agree with Richard that it's reprehensible.

I remember from Tom Wolfe's "Bonfire of the Vanities" (and someone
with a better knowledge of the legal system here correct me) that it's
illegal to tape phone conversations, but NOT illegal to tape your own
conversation with someone, on the phone, or face to face--you have
every right to do so. That's the legal basis for every wired
conversation done by police officers in the country. Whether the act
is reprehensible or not is a different question entirely--I'd say
Jaglom should have at least informed Welles.
26763  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:16pm
Subject: Re: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi!  cellar47


 
--- Noel Vera wrote:

> Whether the act
> is reprehensible or not is a different question
> entirely--I'd say
> Jaglom should have at least informed Welles.
>
>

I'd like to think that Welles knew and didn't say
anything -- recalling the climax of "Touch of Evil."

You might say Jaglom was Welles' own Van Stratten.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26764  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:28pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> AT LAST!!!!
>
> Prepare for Italian history -- and film history -- to
> be rewritten.

Can it be coincidental that this is happening so soon after the death
of the Pope? Just how high up does this go?
26765  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:38pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:

> >
> It sure was one of Daney's. "Winning move" is a Farber term less
> recycled by others than elephant/termite, but worthy of
> consideration. It refers to a variety of ways some films
(filmmakers,
> actors...) seek to ingratiate themeselves with the spectator.

You mean a filmmaker should antagonize the spectator and if he
doesn't he is pandering or something? Sometimes Farber does get on my
nerves! JPC
26766  
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:39pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  peckinpah200...


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > AT LAST!!!!
> >
> > Prepare for Italian history -- and film history -- to
> > be rewritten.
>
> Can it be coincidental that this is happening so soon after the
death
> of the Pope? Just how high up does this go?

But if Brad's conpiracy theory is true can we expect anything better
from God's Rottweiler who became an arch-conservative following 1968?

Tony Williams
26767  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Adam Lemke wrote:
> > Iıve noticed very few people when listing their
> > favorite Premingerıs
> > mentioned ³The Man With the Golden Arm.² Does this
> > not have as strong of a
> > reputation as I thought?
> >
>
> It was a "breakthrough" in that Preminger challenged
> the code by making a film about drug addiction.
> Sinatra, Novak and Eleanor parker are fine, but it's
> treatment of drug addiction is painfully corny. Darren
> McGavin's pusher isn't all that far from "Reefer
> Madness." And that's not McGavin's fault.
>
> Elmer Bernstein's score, however, is amazing -- and
> the real star of the film

I agree with David except that I think he is a bit too indulgent.
I didn't like the film much when it came out, but today it's allbut
unwatchable -- incredibly corny and overdone. I would list it as one
of my two or three LEAST favorite Premingers!

JPC
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26768  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:50pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> >>
> > I am surprised that
> > Curtiz (Leisen's equivalent at Warner's)
> > gets more attention. I was watching
> > "Mildred Pierce" last night, and maybe it
> > was the mini-Preminger binge I went on
> > last week, but I didn't see any great
> > visual signature.
>
> WHAT? How could you sit through a film as visually striking
> as "Mildred Pierce" and not see a signature? Curtiz's visual
style is
> certainly different from Preminger's. But it's still quite
marked:
> that heavily Germanic mise-en-scene with the use of enormous,
looming
> shadows, the low-angled close-ups, the rapid and slightly zig-
zagging
> lateral tracks, the portentous placement of mirrors, windows and
> staircases. Beyond this, I would say that this style is rarely
> decorative but tied to the violent, aggressive, and often
masochistic
> drives of the characters and the narrative worlds he sets up.
Aside
> from the fact that he and Leisen were both studio contract
directors, I
> don't see any comparison.
>
>
> Anyone who badmouths Curtiz has to meet me after school.


I'll join you there, Joe! "Mildred Pierce" is a visual treat
(among other things). JPC
26769  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:04pm
Subject: Haunted Heart PS  jpcoursodon


 
To my acute embarrassment I have never heard a vocal version
of "Haunted Heart". I became acquainted with the tune back in the
sixties with he beautiful version by the Bill Evans Trio (issued on
the 1961 LP "Explorations"). Alec Wilder has this to say: "Maybe my
eyes are too bright with memories, yet in the first three notes I find
myself caught, lost, found, whatever it is..."

The tune (I don't know the lyrics! David, help!)has that very
distinctive melancholy strain that is so characteristic of Shwartz and
Dietz in such songs as "Alone Together", "By Myself" and "Too late
Now", written for Donen's "Royal Wedding" ("Too late Now", like "This
Is Always", should have become a standard. Art Farmer did record it
though).

I'll check out the Haden CD (one of his great duo albums with Kenny
Barron is "Night and the City", mostly on standard ballads) and the
Stafford import.

JPC
26770  
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:05pm
Subject: A request from Peter and Fred for a co-moderator  fredcamper


 
Two things have become evident to us co-moderators over time. First, our
group is a success for many or most of its members, and continues to
grow. Second, many members have much more time and energy for our group
than either of us do. Fred has long admitted he can no longer read all
the posts, and while Peter mostly does, he often falls behind. We think
we need a third co-moderator who does already read everything promptly,
and who agrees with our Statement of Purpose, and with our past
interventions to keep the group on-topic and flame free. Such a person
should have a long term interest in working to maintain our group's
health, and probably should not be one of the three or four most
frequent posters, nor anyone who has been more than once or twice
involved in borderline flaming or intense partisan battles here; Fred
has learned that his strong statements can be hard for some others to
separate from his moderator role.

Aside from keeping the group on-topic and within the rules (a process
that can involve reading email alerts from members about questionable
posts and engaging in email exchanges and occasional chats between
moderators -- there are somewhat more such discussions between the two
of us than ever reach the board, because we don't always intervene)
moderator duties involve writing and reviewing occasional changes to the
Statement of Purpose, and reviewing new applicants and deciding "yes" or
"no" on them.

One other reason for this call is that it seems possible that one of us
may eventually want to "retire" from co-moderating.

Interested persons should send an email to both of us privately stating
your interest. A lengthy message isn't necessary, though a few words
about why you want to participate and (if you hardly ever post) the
nature of your interest in film would be helpful.

Peter and Fred
Your co-moderators

Fred Camper
Peter Tonguette
26771  
From: MG4273@...
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:11pm
Subject: Re: Wild at Heart and neo-noir (was: The End of Skidoo)  nzkpzq


 
In a message dated 05-05-09 15:22:09 EDT, Bill Krohn writes:

<< But in truth, I don't think neo-noir produced much, except a lot of films
that
revelled in the kind of plot twists Lynch was sending up in WAH (1990)
while using the elements of the genre for more srerious purposes. As
Godard and others had done 30 years before. >>

I have hardly ever enjoyed a film labelled neo-noir, either. It is not that I
have some grand theoretical objection to reviving true 1940's and 50's noir,
which is stupendous. But the 1990's films involved were usually turkeys! And
most neo-noir seems to have the most misanthropic look at people as being evil
and no good.
I did enjoy Wayne Wang's "Chan is Missing" and "Slamdance", although these
are hardly what most people regard as mainstream neo-noir.

Mike GRost
26772  
From: Fred Camper
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:17pm
Subject: Request from Fred re OT posts and archive use  fredcamper


 
This comes from me not as co-moderator but as the person who is hosting
our archives on his own Web site.

This past month, the first full month of the archive, I started getting
warnings that I was about to exceed the bandwidth limit for a month,
which I had set at 10 GB. I got it raised to 12 GB, but it can't be
raised much beyond that. This is a huge amount of traffic. One culprit
was those giant text files of our posts that were apparently being
opened and read hundreds of times, at about 13 GB a pop, sometimes by
search engines but perhaps also by members? I took them down
immediately. These were posted only so you could download them to your
computer, not so that you could open them multiple times on my site. But
also, the html files, which most people get to through search engines,
are being used a lot.

My plan is to put the text files up one day a month, with advance
notice, for downloading. But I can't afford to take chances on having to
pay a lot more money for my site by exceeding bandwidth limits, and it
stands to reason that Web traffic in general and the usage of our
archives will continue to grow. Therefore

1. PLEASE put multiple OT posts on the OT board. The way to do this is
not to wonder in an a_film_by post whether the discussion should be
taken to the OT board, the way to do it is just to do it and post a note
on a_film_by. Multiple exchanges of song lyrics for the sake of
nostalgic exchanges of song lyrics are clearly OT. If our archive grows
too large in relation to Web space and bandwidth I won't be able to
continue to host it. There's no way to predict how this will go -- maybe
bandwidth costs will decline more rapidly than our archive grows, but
maybe not, and still, I don't see why I should permanently archive OT
posts that aren't clearly relevant to our group's purpose.

2. Keep quoting of past posts down to the minimum needed. Post the post
number or post url instead.

3. If you use the archive, PLEASE do so by downloading the three text
files when available and searching those on your hard drive, if your
computer is powerful enough to do this, which most recent ones will be.
A couple of GB a month are consumed in people reading our archive on my
site. In one sense this is great, it's what I hoped for, but the text
files are there to be used, and ought to be faster than google to
search, especially with google's new search tool, which also ought to
work if you wanted to download all the html files.

I'll post advance notice here before posting the updated text files for
downloading.

Thanks!
Fred Camper
26773  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  cellar47


 
--- thebradstevens wrote:

>
> Can it be coincidental that this is happening so
> soon after the death
> of the Pope? Just how high up does this go?
>
>
>

The sky's the limit.



Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26774  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  cellar47


 
--- peckinpah20012000
wrote:

>
> But if Brad's conpiracy theory is true can we
> expect anything better
> from God's Rottweiler who became an
> arch-conservative following 1968?
>


There's nothing "theoretical" about it. If you believe
a teeager overtook all by his lonesome and extremely
fit adult, threw him under a car and ran over his head
repeatedly, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that
might be of interest to you.

As for Ratz, exactly what do you expect from a Hitler
Youth anyway?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
26775  
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:36pm
Subject: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  thebradstevens


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "peckinpah20012000"
wrote:
>

> But if Brad's conpiracy theory is true can we expect anything
better
> from God's Rottweiler who became an arch-conservative following
1968?
>

The implication is that the previous Pope may have been in some way
involved with Pasolini's murder, and this is why the fact's couldn't
be revealed before his own death.
26776  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:47pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> Blake writes:
>
(I first discovered Sturges in
> my '20's along with Wilder, Mankiewicz.
> and Huston. I loved writer-directors.
> But even then I hated his visual flatness
> and poor direction of actors).
>

How is his direction of actors poor? Examples, please.



>
> I much prefer Brackett. Wilder loved
> Diamond for his ability with the "plumbing"
> of a script, but at this point Wilder's films
> with him are looking a little mechanical to
> me. The plumbing has begun to show.
>

I see no plumbing showing in the late masterpieces (Sherlock,
Avanti!, Fedora).


> Also, I think Brackett/Wilder was more a
> collaboration of equals. Wilder was self-
> conscious about his English. By the time
> of Diamond, he was "Billy Wilder" and
> Diamond was clearly the lesser partner.


I don't think Wilder considered Diamond a "lesser partner". He had
immense admiration and respect for him.

> Also, the treatment of women in later
> Wilder is much more conventional, even
> sexist.
>
Why? How?
26777  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:02am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS  cellar47


 
--- jpcoursodon wrote:

(I don't know the lyrics! David, help!)

In the night, though we're apart,
There's a ghost of you within my haunted heart;
Ghost of you, my lost romance...
Lips that kiss, eyes that dance.
Haunted heart won't let me be;
Dreams repeat a sweet and lonely song to me.
Dreams are dust; it's you who must belong to me,
And thrill my haunted heart --
Be still, my haunted heart.
Time rolls on, trying in vain to cure me;
You are gone, yet you remain to allure me.
You're there in the dark, and I call;
You're there, but you're not there at all.
Oh, what will I do without you, without you?
Haunted heart won't set me free;
Dreams repeat a sweet and lonely song to me.
Dreams are dust; it's you who must belong to me,
And thrill my haunted heart --
Be still, my haunted heart.




Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26778  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:08am
Subject: Swearing off  jpcoursodon


 
I feel SOOOO guilty about all those song quotings that I hereby pledge
that I shall never mention a song again on this Group -- only on the
OT line.
26779  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:25am
Subject: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > AT LAST!!!!
> >
> > Prepare for Italian history -- and film history -- to
> > be rewritten.
>
> Can it be coincidental that this is happening so soon after the
death
> of the Pope? Just how high up does this go?

And since Pasolini once made a film called "Teorama" don't you wish he
were alive to make one called "Pope-o-rama" (to resurrect a David E.
phrase that still has me LOL whenever I think of it)?
26780  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:35am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  cinebklyn


 
Joe writes:

> How could you sit through a film as visually
striking as "Mildred Pierce" and not see a
signature?

Sorry, just didn't get it. I saw the shadows and
the angles, but it doesn't add up for me into a
coherent signature. I do not feel the flow from
shot to shot. I feel that sometimes Curtiz cared
very much about the composition and sometimes
he didn't. Very hit and miss.

> Aside from the fact that he and Leisen were both
studio contract directors, I don't see any comparison.

Agreed. Leisen is the far superior artist. He was not
only visually brilliant, he challenged stereotypical
deptictions of women on screen.

Curtiz catered to the conventional notions of
womanhood that prevailed at the time. WWII was
ending and society wanted all those Rosie the Riveters
safely back in their kitchens. Mildred, who through
her own determination and smarts, creates a chain
of successful restaurants, is brought low by love for
her daughter. Message: women in business are unstable
due to their emotional attachments tro their children.

When her younger daughter is deathly ill (doesn't Mildred
hear that cough? Shouldn't she keep her home?),
Mildred is off playing with Monty. Bert, the caring father,
is frantic. Not finding Mildred at home, he takes her to
his mistress's house (which the doctor says was the right
thing to do). If only Mildred had been home, maybe her
daughter would have lived.

Finally at the end, the police detective says that they didn't
need Mildred's story. So why have her tell it? So maybe
Mildred would understand where she went wrong. Sure
enough, at the end she is walking into the dawn with Bert,
her loser ex, domesticated once again.

Compare this with the end of "Midnight": Colbert may be
going off with Ameche to get married, but she warns him:
"I don't know if I am going to be satisfied with 50 francs a
day." She is still aggressive, still defining her needs.

Brian
26781  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:56am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> To my acute embarrassment I have never heard a vocal version
> of "Haunted Heart". I became acquainted with the tune back in the
> sixties with he beautiful version by the Bill Evans Trio (issued
on
> the 1961 LP "Explorations"). Alec Wilder has this to say: "Maybe
my
> eyes are too bright with memories, yet in the first three notes I
find
> myself caught, lost, found, whatever it is..."
>

This is very interesting, JPC. That same Bill Evans performance was
my introduction to the song too, and I didn't know the lyrics for
many years (by the way, I assume the Alec Wilder quote refers
directly to the Evans version and not just the song--it's eloquent).
The Evans interpretation is probably one of the more affecting
things in my life--kind of like when Bowie gives Keechie the watch.
Wilder can find the words. I can't.

That was the only way I knew it for years, but I always wondered
"Did the lyrics provide some inspiration for this? Are they as
profound and ineffable?" Then the day came when, for another
reason, I was motivated to find out and tracked down the sheet
music, which I still have. This was before Nicholson used the
Stafford record and though the Haden CD may have been out (and
Nicholson may have heard it), I didn't know about it then.

Well the words are resonant, too, just as one would expect. (I
believe David has posted them--if not, I will). Of course, I have
the Haden CD which also bears some comment (movie related, at least
partly) and as Joe's post got into a little I'll respond to that
more specifically later on. But one interesting thing about these
songs that you and David seem to know so well. Often, I first knew
the songs from instrumental jazz performances, long before I knew
the lyrics, as was the case with "This Is Always." It seems unfair
to the lyricists I know, and yet the best jazzmen always seem very
conscious of the words. When I hear Monk play "Don't Blame Me"
(Fields-McHugh) for example, I know he knows and loves the song as a
song no less than say, Minnelli in "The Bad and the Beautiful"
and "Two Weeks in Another Town"--and there, now I'm not OT. On the
liner notes to "Way Out West," Sonny Rollins (who I don't really
mean to mention as much as Preminger) spoke about playing "There Is
No Greater Love" (Jones-Symes) and "explained that while blowing he
liked to think of the words and what they meant." It certainly
comes over in that performance and I still don't know the lyrics (and
I'm not asking) even though I also now know the Miles Davis version
recorded with his classic quintet (though Coltrane lays out)in 1955.

> The tune (I don't know the lyrics! David, help!)has that very
> distinctive melancholy strain that is so characteristic of Shwartz
and
> Dietz in such songs as "Alone Together", "By Myself" and "Too late
> Now", written for Donen's "Royal Wedding" ("Too late Now",
like "This
> Is Always", should have become a standard. Art Farmer did record
it
> though).
>
There is also a nice trio performance of "Too Late Now" by Tommy
Flanagan. But guess what? In this case, I knew the song, lyrics
and all, from the movie--beautifully sung by Jane Powell--and so
was simply glad to hear a top jazz pianist like Flanagan play it.
26782  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:05am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cinebklyn


 
JPC writes:

> How is his direction of actors poor?
Examples, please.

Claudette Colbert in "The Palm Beach
Story." He allows her to employ all her
tiocs and tricks and coast. Compare
with Leisen's direction of her.

> I see no plumbing showing in the late
masterpieces (Sherlock, Avanti!, Fedora).

I do. I just re-watched Sherlock (my
husband had never seen it), and the
machinery just jumped out at me. At this
point, I feel Wilder's characters existed
more to serve the plot mechanics than as
autonomous individuals. Everything
introduced will be used over and over
again. It is a closed system.

For example: Ilsa's parasol. She signals the
spies with it. The when she is caught and
riding away, she signals Sherlock with it.
You see it coming a mile off. At this point
Wilder seemed to care more for the niceties
of structure than the vibrancy of living
characters.

> I don't think Wilder considered Diamond a
"lesser partner". He had immense admiration
and respect for him.

True, but he was not nearly as well-known or
talented as Brackett. Also, Brackett had a
significant career without Wilder; Diamond did
not. I do not see Diamond as being able to
challenge Wilder as Brackett did.

> Why? How?

Why? How should I know?

How? Look at the number of later female characters
who are whores: MacLaine in "Irma La Douce";
Kim Novak in "Kiss Me, Stupid". You have Marilyn
Monroe playing dumb in "Some Like It Hot" and
MacLaine being masochistic in "The Apartment."

Where are the strong women of the Brackett/Wilder
days? Dietrich, Swanson, Colbert, Garbo, Stanwyck,
de Havilland, Rogers?

These were women who controlled their narratives.
In Wilder/Diamond narratives control is in the hands
of men and women seek fulfillment through union
with them.

Brian
26783  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Pasolini murder inquiry reopened  cellar47


 
--- Blake Lucas wrote:

> And since Pasolini once made a film called "Teorama"
> don't you wish he
> were alive to make one called "Pope-o-rama" (to
> resurrect a David E.
> phrase that still has me LOL whenever I think of
> it)?
>

I surely do. With Ninetto as Pope and Toto ashis chief
advisor.

I talked with Pasolini in New York when "Teorema" was
first shown at the Museum of Modern Art. Amazing man.
Easily one of the most impressive individuals I've
ever met.



Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html
26784  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:28am
Subject: Re: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  cellar47


 
--- Brian Charles Dauth
wrote:

>
> Sorry, just didn't get it. I saw the shadows and
> the angles, but it doesn't add up for me into a
> coherent signature. I do not feel the flow from
> shot to shot. I feel that sometimes Curtiz cared
> very much about the composition and sometimes
> he didn't. Very hit and miss.
>
Ture, but the hits were out of the ballpark.

Fassbinder was planning to write a book on Curtiz when
he died. He called him "an anarchist."



>
> Curtiz catered to the conventional notions of
> womanhood that prevailed at the time. WWII was
> ending and society wanted all those Rosie the
> Riveters
> safely back in their kitchens. Mildred, who through
> her own determination and smarts, creates a chain
> of successful restaurants, is brought low by love
> for
> her daughter. Message: women in business are
> unstable
> due to their emotional attachments tro their
> children.

Maybe. But have you seen "Flamingo Road" ?

>
> When her younger daughter is deathly ill (doesn't
> Mildred
> hear that cough? Shouldn't she keep her home?),
> Mildred is off playing with Monty. Bert, the caring
> father,
> is frantic. Not finding Mildred at home, he takes
> her to
> his mistress's house (which the doctor says was the
> right
> thing to do). If only Mildred had been home, maybe
> her
> daughter would have lived.
>

But as she died, Mildred gets Vida as punishment.

> Finally at the end, the police detective says that
> they didn't
> need Mildred's story. So why have her tell it?

Confession is good for the soul.


So
> maybe
> Mildred would understand where she went wrong. Sure
>
> enough, at the end she is walking into the dawn with
> Bert,
> her loser ex, domesticated once again.
>

Did you ever see Carol Burnett's "Mildred Fierce"?





Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26785  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:37am
Subject: Re: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cellar47


 
--- Brian Charles Dauth
wrote:

> Claudette Colbert in "The Palm Beach
> Story." He allows her to employ all her
> tiocs and tricks and coast. Compare
> with Leisen's direction of her.
>

Well I'm sorry but this may simply be a matter of
taste. I'm crazy about "Midnight" and many other
Leisens.But he's not Sturges. And I'm crazy about "The
Palm Beach Story."

Sturges isn't a graceful director. Had he followed his
mother's lead he would have been.

Actually if he'd followed her lead he would have been
a dancer or a painter or a poet. But as we know he
revolted against all of that.

Besides there's more than one woman in "The Palm Beach
Story" and Mary Astor is my role model

I just re-watched Sherlock (my
> husband had never seen it), and the
> machinery just jumped out at me. At this
> point, I feel Wilder's characters existed
> more to serve the plot mechanics than as
> autonomous individuals. Everything
> introduced will be used over and over
> again. It is a closed system.
>

Nothing wrong there, IMO. It's just a kind of cinema
you don't respond to.

Look at the number of later female characters
> who are whores: MacLaine in "Irma La Douce";
> Kim Novak in "Kiss Me, Stupid". You have Marilyn
> Monroe playing dumb in "Some Like It Hot" and
> MacLaine being masochistic in "The Apartment."
>

Sure. Just like in. . . Godard.

> Where are the strong women of the Brackett/Wilder
> days? Dietrich, Swanson, Colbert, Garbo, Stanwyck,
> de Havilland, Rogers?
>
You don't think Marilyn is strong in "Some Like It
Hot"? And what about the beaten-down MacLaine in "The
Apartment" -- summoning the strength to dump Fred
MacMurray and embrace Jack Lemmon. The penultimate
shot of her running down the street smiling in
anticipation of returning to Lemmon with the main
theme rising in triumph invariably reduces me to a
sobbing wreck.

> These were women who controlled their narratives.
> In Wilder/Diamond narratives control is in the hands
> of men and women seek fulfillment through union
> with them.
>

So he's closer to Lang thant Lubitsch. Good.

"Toodle-loo, drip-drap!"



Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
26786  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:53am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> > To my acute embarrassment I have never heard a vocal version
> > of "Haunted Heart". I became acquainted with the tune back in
the
> > sixties with he beautiful version by the Bill Evans Trio (issued
> on
> > the 1961 LP "Explorations"). Alec Wilder has this to say: "Maybe
> my
> > eyes are too bright with memories, yet in the first three notes
I
> find
> > myself caught, lost, found, whatever it is..."
> >
>
> This is very interesting, JPC. That same Bill Evans performance
was
> my introduction to the song too, and I didn't know the lyrics for
> many years (by the way, I assume the Alec Wilder quote refers
> directly to the Evans version and not just the song--it's
eloquent).

No, he very seldom refers to a jazz performance of a tune (although
he was jazz savvy).
>
The Evans interpretation is probably one of the more affecting
> things in my life--kind of like when Bowie gives Keechie the watch.
> Wilder can find the words. I can't.


Yes, but you can say that of almost every song Evans played with
the trio at the time: Beautiful Love, Detour Ahead, Some Other Time,
My Foolish Heart, The Boy Next Door. That trio was so totally
magical.



Often, I first knew
> the songs from instrumental jazz performances, long before I knew
> the lyrics, as was the case with "This Is Always." It seems
unfair
> to the lyricists I know, and yet the best jazzmen always seem very
> conscious of the words. When I hear Monk play "Don't Blame Me"
> (Fields-McHugh) for example, I know he knows and loves the song as
a
> song no less than say, Minnelli in "The Bad and the Beautiful"
> and "Two Weeks in Another Town"--and there, now I'm not OT. On
the
> liner notes to "Way Out West," Sonny Rollins (who I don't really
> mean to mention as much as Preminger) spoke about playing "There
Is
> No Greater Love" (Jones-Symes) and "explained that while blowing
he
> liked to think of the words and what they meant." It certainly
> comes over in that performance and I still don't know the lyrics
(and
> I'm not asking) even though I also now know the Miles Davis
version
> recorded with his classic quintet (though Coltrane lays out)in
1955.

Well, Lester Young, a great ballad player, famously said that he
liked to know the lyrics of all the songs he played. He listened to
singers a lot.
>
And so my pledge of an hour ago seems to have gone the way of
Heinzie's swearing "I'll never be jealous again"

There will be no more nightmares to sleep through
No more bushes to creep through
No more keyholes to peep through...

After which he pursues her with a knife ("He always has a knife;
he lives in the past.")

JPC
26787  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:01am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  jpcoursodon


 
>
>
>
> >
> > Curtiz catered to the conventional notions of
> > womanhood that prevailed at the time.

And who didn't? I don't think this is serious discussion and I am
amazed that David finds the energy to respond to this kind of... well
let's be charitable and call it "discourse".

JPC
26788  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:30am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cinebklyn


 
David writes:

> Well I'm sorry but this may simply be
a matter of taste.

It probably is.

> I'm crazy about "Midnight" and many
other Leisens.But he's not Sturges.

Thank god. LOL.

> Sturges isn't a graceful director.

Ain't that the truth. His ham-handedness
is painful to watch sometimes. But just
as I like grace in a dancer or a singer or
a writer, I also like it in a filmmaker. Again,
it may be just a matter of taste.

> Nothing wrong there, IMO. It's just a kind
of cinema you don't respond to.

Never said there was anything wrong. Just
that in the late films, the plumbing shows.

> Sure. Just like in. . . Godard.

Does that make it okay?

> You don't think Marilyn is strong in "Some
Like It Hot"?

Not at all. Sugar admits she is not very bright.
At the end she doesn't care that she is
following the same pattern (as set up by
Wilder).

> And what about the beaten-down MacLaine
in "The Apartment" -- summoning the strength
to dump Fred MacMurray and embrace Jack
Lemmon.

Pure heterosexual male wish fulfillment. Not
my thang.

> So he's closer to Lang thant Lubitsch. Good.

For you. Not for me. I am just not into
narratives of female submission.

Brian
26789  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:32am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> > my
> > > eyes are too bright with memories, yet in the first three
notes
> I
> > find
> > > myself caught, lost, found, whatever it is..."
> > >
> >
> No, he very seldom refers to a jazz performance of a tune
(although
> he was jazz savvy).
> >
So it's just about the song. OK. But it certainly captures the
performance, too, doesn't it?

> The Evans interpretation is probably one of the more affecting
> > things in my life--kind of like when Bowie gives Keechie the
watch.
> >
> Yes, but you can say that of almost every song Evans played with
> the trio at the time: Beautiful Love, Detour Ahead, Some Other
Time,
> My Foolish Heart, The Boy Next Door. That trio was so totally
> magical.
>
No argument there. And when I think of them getting all that music
down at the Vanguard just weeks before LaFaro's tragic death (this
bassist was a very young guy, for those who don't know him), it
really feels like the hand of God was on them.

Interestingly, I do especially like three ballad performances by
Evans from this period--"Young and Foolish" (before the classic
trio, with Sam Jones and Philly Joe Jones), "Haunted Heart," and
"My Foolish Heart" (at the Vanguard). Notice anything--the
word "Foolish" appears in two of the titles, and the word "Heart" in
two (in different combinations).

And speaking of cinema, "Some Other Time" (another one I don't know
the lyrics of) is so exquisitely played by Evans that I've always
regretted this song wasn't kept in the (mostly wonderful) version
of "On the Town" (Gene Kelly-Stanley Donen). Hmmm, I hope I do not
mispeak--it is from "On the Town" and not "Wonderful Town," I hope.

I'm trying to get all my song/music responses in before midnight my
time, as I know that the moderators have spoken.

Blake
>
26790  
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:50am
Subject: query: Garrel's jazz composers  apmartin90


 
Here is a question for the jazz aficionados in the group. I have long
been intrigued by the jazz scores to several Philippe Garrel films. He
has used the same performers/composers over a number of years
(including, in recent times, the non-jazz but sublime John Cale). The
ones that intrigue me most, from Garrel's films of the 1980s, are Faton
Cahen and Didier Lockwood (Barney Wilen I know a little about from
reading the history of the 'Zanzibar' filmmakers). Can anybody tell me
anything about them? Is their work, for Garrel or elsewhere, available
on CD or vinyl?

I live in hope for the appearance of a MUSIC FROM THE FILMS OF PHILIPPE
GARREL compilation CD! (Of course, I do already have the several John
Cale CDs of his music for Garrel.)

Adrian
26791  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:55am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  cinebklyn


 
JPC writes:

> Me: Curtiz catered to the conventional
notions of womanhood that prevailed at
the time.

> JPC: And who didn't?

Mankiewicz for one. See my piece on him
in Senses of Cinema for a more in-depth
discussion of this aspect of his artistry.

> I don't think this is serious discussion

Then why did you post questions to me?
Just to high hat me?

> . . . and I am amazed that David finds the
energy to respond to this kind of... well
let's be charitable and call it "discourse".

JPC, I am tired of your slurs against my posts.
I do not need your charity. My opinion is
just as valuable and just as informed as yours
or anyone else's in this group.

If you don't like what I post, that is why all
computers come with a delete key. But please
have enough decency not to enagage me in
conversation only to be able to take cheap
shots.

Brian
26792  
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:02am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  cinebklyn


 
David E writes:

> Ture, but the hits were out of the ballpark.

Agreed. But the more I see "Mildred Pierce,"
the more it seems like a check swing grounder
right back at the pitcher.

> But have you seen "Flamingo Road" ?

Yes. I remember liking it much more.

> But as she died, Mildred gets Vida as
punishment.

Mildred would have had Veda either way.

> Did you ever see Carol Burnett's "Mildred
Fierce"?

Yup. It is also interesting to see how the film
differs from Cain's novel.

Brian
26793  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:19am
Subject: Re: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart")  cellar47


 
--- Brian Charles Dauth
wrote:

>
> Ain't that the truth. His ham-handedness
> is painful to watch sometimes. But just
> as I like grace in a dancer or a singer or
> a writer, I also like it in a filmmaker. Again,
> it may be just a matter of taste.
>

True. The wirter-director Sturges reminds me of most
is Fuller.


>
> > Sure. Just like in. . . Godard.
>
> Does that make it okay?
>
Actually Wilder's views on prostitution are more
mature than Godard's.

> > You don't think Marilyn is strong in "Some
> Like It Hot"?
>
> Not at all. Sugar admits she is not very bright.
> At the end she doesn't care that she is
> following the same pattern (as set up by
> Wilder).
>
But it's a lovely pattern --producting happiness for
all. Curtis begins as a slick lothario, but his
experience in the course of the film changes him.
Remember it ends with him telling a woman the truth
for the very first time.

Wilder's more optimistic than you are.

> > And what about the beaten-down MacLaine
> in "The Apartment" -- summoning the strength
> to dump Fred MacMurray and embrace Jack
> Lemmon.
>
> Pure heterosexual male wish fulfillment. Not
> my thang.
>

Not atall. Heterosexuality is not the issue. Facing
the truth and striking back against the sexual dynamic
that's been controlling you knows no orientation.

> > So he's closer to Lang thant Lubitsch. Good.
>
> For you. Not for me. I am just not into
> narratives of female submission.
>
>
Neither am I. And I don't find them in Wilder.>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
26794  
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:32am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS  jpcoursodon


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> And speaking of cinema, "Some Other Time" (another one I don't know
> the lyrics of) is so exquisitely played by Evans that I've always
> regretted this song wasn't kept in the (mostly wonderful) version
> of "On the Town" (Gene Kelly-Stanley Donen). Hmmm, I hope I do
not
> mispeak--it is from "On the Town" and not "Wonderful Town," I hope.
>
> I'm trying to get all my song/music responses in before midnight
my
> time, as I know that the moderators have spoken.
>
> Blake
> >

It was in "Wonderful Town" -- which became an entirely new score
(and a great one, by Styne/Robin) in Quine's "My Sister Eileen" (so
we're back on track).

Another great Bernstein song was "Big Stuff" from "Fancy Free"
(Billie Holiday worked very hard at getting that one right!)
Wonderful version by the Gil (not Bill!) Evans orchestra in the
1957 "Gil Evans and Ten" LP (in my opinion the best recording he
ever made). Oops, off track again!

JPC
26795  
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Haunted Heart PS  cellar47


 
--- jpcoursodon wrote:

>
> Another great Bernstein song was "Big Stuff" from
> "Fancy Free"
> (Billie Holiday worked very hard at getting that one
> right!)
> Wonderful version by the Gil (not Bill!) Evans
> orchestra in the
> 1957 "Gil Evans and Ten" LP (in my opinion the best
> recording he
> ever made). Oops, off track again!
>
Gil Evans last work was the arrangements for the great
and scndalously neglected movie musical "Absolute
Beginners"

(back on track again!)
>
>
>



Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html
26796  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:53am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
wrote:
>
> Yup. It is also interesting to see how the film
> differs from Cain's novel.
>
That's true. "Mildred Pierce" is a great novel by Cain, and he
forsakes his usual first person point of view which seems to give it
a wider and deeper social and psychological perspective than some of
his others. I'd say it's my favorite Cain, though haven't read them
all.

I assume you're implying the movie doesn't compare well to the novel.
I won't argue that point--and it's certainly true that the greater
the book, the more possible is disappointment in the movie. In
Cain's case there are a lot of different scenarios. "Double
Indemnity" is a good piece of work on Cain's part, but I didn't find
it quite as interesting as some of the others--script by Wilder and
Chandler and really great direction by Wilder, along with building
up the character of Keyes and his relationship to Neff (three great
actors at their best also do their part here), made the movie
superior to the book IMO. To me this is hands-down the best Cain
adaptation I've seen. "Serenade" is a beautiful novel--the content
of it is very bold and was plainly too much for Hollywood in 1956.
Diluted into near nothingness, it became what is surely the worst
film ever made by the great Anthony Mann, making any of his early
programmers look like "Man of the West" by comparison.
Interestingly, while the movie of "Serenade" doesn't acknowledge
that there is even such a thing in the world as homosexuality, or
even a homosexual pull on a heterosexual man, the movie of "Double
Indemnity" develops that very moving homoerotic subtext between Neff
and Keyes (not in the book) which ends which Keyes lighting Neff's
cigarette (for a change), bringing me to tears as much as MacLaine's
run back to Lemmon in "The Apartment" which David evoked so well.

Think about trying to do "Mildred Pierce" as elaborately as the
novel. It would have been unwieldy. The flashback structure
provided by MacDougall's script works very well, tightens the whole,
begins at an interesting point and encourages us to look around a
little at everyone as it goes back to the beginning, and not simply
to choose the most obvious identification figure. And Curtiz'
direction, beyond the visual qualities others have described, is
incisive and dramatic in catching the ebb and flow of the
relationships, even as it forsakes to some extent some nuances of
the novel (I like Curtiz very much--don't find him introspective nor
do I think he ever tries to be). Also, if you've read it, the
casting is quite a treat--Crawford, Carson, Scott, Bennett, Blyth
--it's hard to imagine more apt people for any of those roles.
26797  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:19am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (Was: Haunted Heart)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> Not at all. Heterosexuality is not the issue. Facing
> the truth and striking back against the sexual dynamic
> that's been controlling you knows no orientation.
>
That's says it well for this and many other good films. And Brian,
please note who made the above statement.

I don't want to engage this whole thing too much, because I like all
the filmmakers for different reasons, though each of us prioritizes
them differently of course. But one thing keeps coming back that I
think should be questioned. Why do characters have to be positive
role models for anything? Is that what the cinema is about? To me
it isn't. If I want to sit in judgement of whether someone is
strong or weak, I don't need to go to a movie to do this. Rather,
this is an opportunity to see other things about them, and let that
resonate against my own experience. In this light, "The Apartment"
for example has two sympathetic characters in Lemmon and MacLaine,
though if we sat through the movie judging them we might find them
very imperfect people. And it has an unsympathetic character in
MacMurray, but impressively, he also comes over as a very human one,
who has an interesting and compelling part to play in the whole
thing. And by the way, a propos Wilder's gifts as a director, when
I was coming into the group David and some others mentioned that
moment when Lemmon looks into MacLaine's little cracked pocket
mirror and sees what he has inadvertently wrought, citing it as
proof of Wilder's artistry. I strongly agree--it's a high moment of
Wilder for me, all the more so because of a subtle and brilliant
aspect of the whole. The mirror is MacLaine's and you would think
somewhere in the movie we would see her reflection in it, but we
never do. Instead, Wilder avoids the obvious, having her say
something like "It makes me look the way I feel" and it is MacMurray
and Lemmon who are doubled in cracked reflection, to great effect as
it is still her mirror.

In "Johnny Guitar" (Ray), there are a lot of good characters--I'm
taken with all the characters in fact, though don't have the same
emotional investment in all of them. But is there any doubt that the
most interesting character, and the one who drives the film, is Emma
(Mercedes McCambridge)? Malevolent and warped by sexual repression
and sexual ambivalence and out to wreak violence as a result, she's
no role model, is she? If that's what you want, take her out of the
film, and you might have the beginning of some paradigm for living.
But not me. I appreciate what she has to give the film and me.

Blake

>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
26798  
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:24am
Subject: Re: Porgy and Bess PS (Was: Haunted Heart PS)  lukethedealer12


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to get all my song/music responses in before midnight
> my
> > time, as I know that the moderators have spoken.
> >
>
> It was in "Wonderful Town" -- which became an entirely new score
> (and a great one, by Styne/Robin) in Quine's "My Sister Eileen"
(so
> we're back on track).

I love "My Sister Eileen" too--wonderful musical and, as with most
things he tried, Quine had great talent for the genre (though on
reviewing I found his 1954 "So This Is Paris" just a warmup--not
nearly as good though it has some good dancing by Gene Nelson and
Gloria de Haven, in one number especially). I knew "Eileen" had a
completely different score, and this one by completely different
(but great) people, unlike "On the Town." I know the movies, but
neither show--knew "Some Other Time" was from one of them so thanks
for keeping me from going to bed trying to figure out which "Town"
and knowing I'd never figure it out all night.
>
> Another great Bernstein song was "Big Stuff" from "Fancy Free"
> (Billie Holiday worked very hard at getting that one right!)
> Wonderful version by the Gil (not Bill!) Evans orchestra in the
> 1957 "Gil Evans and Ten" LP (in my opinion the best recording he
> ever made). Oops, off track again!
>
And now for that before midnight OT part, per subject heading above.
"The best recording he ever made." Surely, you jest. Because I was
going to add to Porgy and Bess posts the fact that Preminger's movie
in 1958 may have stimulated the classic jazz record "Porgy and Bess"
--Gil Evans orchestrations and Miles Davis as soloist. OK, I
haven't heard "Gil Evans and Ten" to tell the truth, so maybe I
should just trust you, but how could Evans top the truly sublime
and very personal "Porgy and Bess" he came up with here? I was
going to comment a little more on "impurity" and wonder how the
Gershwin estate took to this version, but truly I don't care. IMHO,
Evans surpassed the original with this magnificent interpretation.
I've never heard orchestrations with the piercing character of
these, even in those two other magisterial Davis-Evans albums "Miles
Ahead" and "Sketches of Spain." And I think as a soloist, Miles
only surpassed his work on "Porgy" in the small group setting
of "Kind of Blue" the following year. When I listen to the ineffable
"Bess, Oh Where's My Bess" on this, or the powerfully bluesy and dark
incantation of "Prayer" or the exquisitely tender "I Loves You,
Porgy" I just get this melancholy yet heady feeling that nothing
else quite gives me.

Well, anyway, another nod to Otto Preminger, not just for directing
a beautiful movie, but possibly for playing a part in inspiring a
transcendent jazz album which took "Porgy and Bess" to new heights.

Blake
26799  
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:47am
Subject: Re: Favorite Preminger films (and This Is Always query)  damienbona


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Me too! But there are not so many versions anyway.
> > >
> > >
>
>
> I have no idea as to why it's not a "standard."
>

Chet Baker does a lovely version of "This is Always." I have it on a
compilation CD -- "My Funny Valentine" -- and, in typical Baker
fashion, Baker's aggressively understated singing is emotionally
overpowering. I hadn't realized the song was cut from Three Little
Girls In Blue, a film which did provide what might be described as one-
and-a-half standards, "You Make Me Feel So Young" and "On The Boardwalk
At Atlantic City."
26800  
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:55am
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen)  hotlove666


 
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
>
> Anyone who badmouths Curtiz has to meet me after school.

Correction: Has to meet you, Monte Hellman and Sam Peckinpah after
school!

I love Curtiz's best work, Roughly Speaking and Breaking Point. Don't
count him out, Brian.

a_film_by Main Page
Home    Film    Art     Other: (Rants, Obits)    Links    About    Contact