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26801
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:58am
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi! hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Noel Vera" wrote:
That's the legal basis for every wired
> conversation done by police officers in the country.
Yeah, but don't they have warrants? They can tap phones if they have a
warrant, too. Anyway, it's really odd that Jaglom, with his
whole "protect the legacy" thing, hasn't ever played even one of those
tapes for anyone. I think he was doing something that he deserved, at a
minimum, a sock in the jaw for.
26802
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:03am
Subject: Re: Wild at Heart and neo-noir (was: The End of Skidoo) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-05-09 15:22:09 EDT, Bill Krohn writes:
> I did enjoy Wayne Wang's "Chan is Missing" and "Slamdance", although
these
> are hardly what most people regard as mainstream neo-noir.
>
Both good, though Slamdance was recut to make it moire linear - not by
the director. I consider Dark City a great noir!
26803
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:10am
Subject: Sturges hotlove666
Boy, I hate to quote a film critic, but I just don't have time. Just
read what Manny Farber co-wrote about Sturges - one of his best pieces.
For the record, Sarris put him in the right place: Far Side. And that
very much includes visual style, as well as direction of actors. As for
writing, Wilder will all his partners never came close.
26804
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:14am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> The tune (I don't know the lyrics! David, help!)has that very
> distinctive melancholy strain that is so characteristic of Shwartz
and
> Dietz in such songs as "Alone Together", "By Myself" and "Too late
> Now", written for Donen's "Royal Wedding" ("Too late Now", like "This
> Is Always", should have become a standard. Art Farmer did record it
> though).
>
"Too Late Now" was written by Burton Lane and Alan Jay Lerner. The
song was re-discovered by numerous jazz and cabaret singers starting
back in the early 80s, and I would say that now it is definitely a
standard.
In much the same way, there have been quite a few recrdings of "Haunted
Heart" in the last half-dozen years or so. (Chris Connor and Renee
Fleming have recent albums called "Haunted Heart," and it's also on the
new Jane Monheitand. For a 40s version other than Jo Stafford's, the
Arthur Schwartz CD in the Smithsonian's American Songbook series has a
very nice, emotionally direct version by Buddy Clark.
> I'll check out the Haden CD (one of his great duo albums with Kenny
> Barron is "Night and the City", mostly on standard ballads) and the
> Stafford import.
Haden's follow-ups to Haunted Heart are also eminently
worthwhile: "Always Say Goodbye and Now Is The Hour, the latter has a
beautiful version of Victor Young's theme for The Left Hand of God.
26805
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:17am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> And speaking of cinema, "Some Other Time" (another one I don't know
> the lyrics of) is so exquisitely played by Evans
Blake, you can have Bill Evans AND the lyrics with one of the two
collaborations between EVans and Tony Bennett. You
26806
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:27am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
> wrote:
> >
> > And speaking of cinema, "Some Other Time" (another one I don't know
> > the lyrics of) is so exquisitely played by Evans
>
> Blake, you can have Bill Evans AND the lyrics with one of the two
> collaborations between EVans and Tony Bennett. You
What were you going to say in the rest of this, Damien? ("You...")
I didn't know they did this one and don't have either album but will
keep in mind. I heard their "Waltz for Debby" on the radio (Evans'
most famous piece)--I liked it very much, lyrics added and all, and
after knowing the tune as instrumental for years, it still seemed made
for Bennett to sing.
26807
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:31am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
>
> > The tune (I don't know the lyrics! David, help!)has that very
> > distinctive melancholy strain that is so characteristic of Shwartz
> and
> > Dietz in such songs as "Alone Together", "By Myself" and "Too late
> > Now", written for Donen's "Royal Wedding" >
> "Too Late Now" was written by Burton Lane and Alan Jay Lerner. >
I don't know if JPC is wincing over that mistake (the song is from a
movie musical, by Donen, no less), but I'll admit I am for not
catching him on it (and where was David?). We all should have known
better. Thanks for giving Lane and Lerner the credit they deserve.
26808
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:30am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> What were you going to say in the rest of this, Damien? ("You...")
Whoops, that was just a superflous word -- sorry 'bout that. I'll do
better some other time.
26809
From: "cairnsdavid1967"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 8:50am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cairnsdavid1967
> > How is his direction of actors poor?
> Examples, please.
>
> Claudette Colbert in "The Palm Beach
> Story." He allows her to employ all her
> tiocs and tricks and coast. Compare
> with Leisen's direction of her.
But you can't compare the roles she's playing. PBS is deliberately
light 9tghough it has a serious point, it's one better expressed
through lightness) - although Claudette is leaving her husband, it's
not a tragic situation. She plays a more conflicted character in NO
TIME FOR LOVE, and Leisen's interest in psychology is evident in the
dream sequence. It's a different style of playing. For all the
contrast in depth, i prefer PALM BEACH.
And for anyone who attacks Sturges for flatness, i have to point to
the amazing track into Rex harrison's eyeball in UNFAITHFULLY YOURS.
> I do. I just re-watched Sherlock (my
> husband had never seen it), and the
> machinery just jumped out at me. At this
> point, I feel Wilder's characters existed
> more to serve the plot mechanics than as
> autonomous individuals.
And yet Wilder fans find this possibly his most moving film. Wilder
was of course deeply concerned with getting plot mechanics right -
because the alternative is getting them WRONG, and it's hard to see
how this would be preferable. Re-using Ilsa's parasol at the end is
just good economics - it would be wasteful to invent something new
here, and too late in the story to pull it off. I don't need to be
surprised by it, I'm already emotionally captured.
This is a case of, if you respond to the film emotionally then all
the layering of narrative and all the leitmotifs and reiterations
will serve your emotional response. If you're not involved, then all
you'll see is technique. I don't thin kyou're WRONG for not being
moved, it's a personal response. But I bet you've seen lots of films
that moved you deeply which have equal amounts of structural
carpentry underlying them - almost any late Hitchcock film would do
as example.
> How? Look at the number of later female characters
> who are whores: MacLaine in "Irma La Douce";
> Kim Novak in "Kiss Me, Stupid". You have Marilyn
> Monroe playing dumb in "Some Like It Hot" and
> MacLaine being masochistic in "The Apartment."
Wilder: "If she's not a whore, she's a bore."
It's worth noting that all the above characters are appealing and
sympathetic. And that there's a prostitute in LOST WEEKEND, and a
rather grotesque female lead in SUNSET BOULEVARD.
I agree it's undeniable that Brackett had more of a sentimental side
than Wilder, but I don't knock either of them for this.
> Where are the strong women of the Brackett/Wilder
> days? Dietrich, Swanson, Colbert, Garbo, Stanwyck,
> de Havilland, Rogers?
Well, there's the spy who outwits Holmes. There's FEDORA...
After Brackett, before Diamond, there's SABRINA. There's the tramp
who stabs Kirk Douglas - not appealing, but TOUGH. There's Dietrich
in WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION...
26810
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:01am
Subject: Re: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
>> But the Haden CD David recommends is worth getting on its own for
any
> jazz fan/cinephile as it's a concept record attempting to evoke
the
> feel of Hollywood/Los Angeles/film noir, etc. in the 1940s
and '50s:
> It opens with the Warners fanfare and the soundtrack of the theme
> from "The Maltese Falcon." In addition to Stafford, Haden also
> interpolates the great Jeri Southern doing "Ev'ry Time We Say
> Goodbye." And David Raksin's theme from "The Bad and the
Beautiful" is
> also performed.
Well, it's way after midnight even out here on the West Coast, not
even "'Round Midnight" (had to get the title of that Monk
masterpiece in here somehow) but as you refer to "any jazz
fan/cinephile" above, I feel OK to cheat just a little in this last
one. Besides, I spent an hour tonight listening the to the
Haden/Quartet West CD, which I hadn't played in quite awhile.
Actually, some things about cinema do come to mind, beyond the
evocation of Hollywood/L.A./film noir of the period to which Joe
refers--not to mention Raksin's great "Bad and the Beautiful" theme,
and how many jazz musicians have played that one? Well, I don't
know the whole answer to the question but do know Milt Jackson
played it on an album called "Statements" which I have, and even
more intriguingly, Jackson's Raksin tribute includes on the same
record a rendition of "Slowly"--the memorable song from Preminger's
"Fallen Angel" which always plays when Charles Bickford comes into
the diner, putting his coin in the jukebox and ordering his coffee
as the song starts to play (but don't get me started on Preminger's
endlessly fascinating staging with Andrews, Darnell, Bickford and
Kilbride in those diner scenes, or the camera moves which so
expressively contextualize the seemingly unchanging yet always
evolving situation there). Suffice it to say that obviously it
becomes easy to mention Preminger in any post.
No, what really interests me from a cinephiliac point of view is the
juxtaposition of the original songs with Haden's versions. Films
incorporate scenes from older films all the time, and filmmakers
with good taste invariably choose good films (great films mostly),
maybe hoping for a resonance which will encourage us to equate them.
An example is "Red River" in "The Last Picture Show" (Bogdanovich)
and it's a reasonable choice--two male friends have fallen into
tragic conflict but reconcile and affirm their friendship in both
cases. And yet isn't this a dangerous strategy? The older work
inevitably carries an ambiance with it, and all manner of subtext
tied to the period in which it was created. Even if it not better
than the work quoting it, it has in some way answered many of the
questions we may have about it. We are now only refining them, and
the new work asks us to feel something in the relationship between
the two which we may rebel against feeling.
Something like this happens, IMO, in the Haden disc (and I know he's
done a lot of these, and have always meant to get some of the others
though haven't yet), and it's even more precarious because he is
interpolating not just old songs, but the SAME old songs. Less
common than what happens in movies and very risky. Entranced by the
album when I first got it (and especially happy to have "Haunted
Heart"), I still felt a little reserved about it, and still do, less
in the straightforward instrumentals than in those three numbers
which go to the old recordings. I notice that Haden is smart enough
not to try to lead his group back in after the original records-they
finish those tracks, and it's a good thing in every case. Not only
is he spared something comparable to the effect of cutting from
Wayne and Clift to Bridges and Bottoms (who are fine, but seem self-
conscious here, as they respond to the movie the way we know this
director wants them too--yes, these characters surely would with
this movie, I know, but that doesn't alleviate the feeling). But in
at least one case (and I believe, all three), Haden spares himself
the feeling we might have that he has trivialized something, by
letting those records (which we know he treasures--they are from his
own collection) be the last word. The one most obvious case is the
final "Deep Song" sung by Billie Holiday, handily one of the dozen
greatest jazz artists of all time. The album ends with her--a wise
move. But you know, my favorite thing on this whole album, the one
that steals it for me, couldn't take that place but does stop the
record in a tender reverie I find privileged when it does come, and
that's Jeri Southern doing "Everytime We Say Goodbye." I'm glad,
Joe, that you seem to share my affection for this. I didn't know
anyone remembered her, let alone found her great. Where does she
get that warmth, sweetness, lilt in her voice in just the right
moments. When she sings:
Why the Gods above me, who must be in the know,
Think so little of me they allow you to go...
I break into tears, quite honestly, and then when she goes on:
When you're near there's such an air of spring about it...
I feel I am ready to die, yet at the same time so glad I am still
alive...and so just bliss out through to the final notes.
And yes, this just became as OT as you can get I know, but I will
try to keep that pledge about song lyrics. But one parting thought
though. The Gods above us who would send a Cole Porter to write
songs like this and a Jeri Southern to sing it "must be in the know"
and that's for sure.
Blake
26811
From: "Kristian Andersen"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:47am
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi! monkchild2004
From: "Blake Lucas" HYPERLINK
"mailto:lukethedealer@..."lukethedealer@...::::
” Everyone has a place in the universe though, so I just want to remind you
all that before he became a director Jaglom had a supporting role in that
wonderful 1968 Haight-Ashbury fever dream "Psych-Out"
(directed by Richard Rush). He played an artist named Warren, and mid-film
either Jack Nicholson or Adam Roarke or Max Julian (I believe it was one of
the three) runs into wherever they are and says to the other two (and maybe
Susan Strasberg, now one of the hippie population as well) a line that is
truly one of the all time greats:
"Warren's freaking out in the art gallery." ”
Why is this a great line? I don’t know what you mean? Can you please list
the criteria, so I can understand.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 09/05/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26812
From: "Brian Charles Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:30am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cinebklyn
David E writes:
> The wirter-director Sturges reminds me of
most is Fuller.
What I love about Fuller is his tabloid visuals
accompanying his tabloid dialogue. It works.
I never felt that Sturges crafted his images
as intensely or carefully as he did his dialogue.
> Actually Wilder's views on prostitution are
more mature than Godard's.
Okay, I'll believe you.
> But it's a lovely pattern . . .
And that is what drives me batty now about
Wilder/Diamond -- the pattern seems more
and more obvious as I grow older.
> Remember it ends with him telling a woman
the truth for the very first time.
Curtis' confession is a lovely moment.
> Facing the truth and striking back against the
sexual dynamic that's been controlling you
knows no orientation.
But she doesn't strike back. She simply replaces
one man with another. She is still finding her
solace in hooking up with a man as the societal
narrative dictates.
Think of Erika in "A Foreign Affair." She writes
her own narrative -- she will join up with a man
to achieve a goal. Do you think she will be in
that de-Nazification camp long? I don't think
so.
In "Ninotchka" and "Midnight" it is the man who
pursues the woman. She holds the power. If she
doesn't consent, there is no relationship.
Sugar and Fran are looking for men. They are
incomplete without one. They are in hunt mode.
> And I don't find them in Wilder.
Only in late Wilder. His vision seems to have
curdled with age.
Brian
26813
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen) joe_mcelhaney
Thankfully, while I slept, enough people have responded to Brian's
criticisms of Curtiz (as well as his criticism of Wilder and Sturges,
which I don't accept either) that little response is needed from me.
I just want to add, following up on Blake's pinpointing of the
limitations of a reading strategy which uses the concept of "positive
role models" (especially for women) as some sort of measure of value
of the work, ideological and otherwise, that there is a fair amount
of feminist writing on "Mildred Pierce." The best of these that I
know of is an essay by Linda Williams. This writing does not attempt
to argue that the film is feminist; but neither does it argue that it
is misogynist. Rather, the film is caught up in a complex
historical, late wartime moment, negotiating its way among a number
of discourses about women/wives/motherhood/careers, etc. in a manner
that very few films of the period do. Williams's essay, in
particular, attempts to sketch out all of these discourses in the
film and is recommended reading. At any rate, it would help one to
see possibilities for examining a film in feminist terms outside of
the rut of an old-fashioned positive role models reading
strategy.
There are a number of Curtiz films which are extremely interesing in
terms of their treatment of women. Whether you would watch them and
find suitable role models for women everywhere to follow in their
journey towards liberation I don't know as I don't look at films in
this manner. But worth checking out for beginners: "Female" (with
Ruth Chatterton), "The Woman from Monte Carlo," (Lil Dagover), "The
Strange Love of Molly Louvain" (Ann Dvorak), "Mandalay" (Kay
Francis), "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" (Bette Davis)
and "Roughly Speaking" (Rosalind Russell) which Bill is correct to
isolate and made the same year as "Mildred."
Off-topic in terms of feminism, though, I watched the new disc
of "The Sea Hawk" last night and that final sword fight is just an
amazing piece of cinema, so relentless that it anticipates people
like the Shaw Brothers and Tsui Hark.
Gee, with Monte Hellman, Sam Peckinpah, Fassbinder, Jean-Pierre
Coursodon and me waiting for Brian on that playground, he better hire
some bodyguards.
26814
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
But you know, my favorite thing on this whole
> album, the one
> that steals it for me, couldn't take that place but
> does stop the
> record in a tender reverie I find privileged when it
> does come, and
> that's Jeri Southern doing "Everytime We Say
> Goodbye." I'm glad,
> Joe, that you seem to share my affection for this.
> I didn't know
> anyone remembered her, let alone found her great.
> Where does she
> get that warmth, sweetness, lilt in her voice in
> just the right
> moments. When she sings:
>
> Why the Gods above me, who must be in the know,
> Think so little of me they allow you to go...
>
> I break into tears, quite honestly, and then when
> she goes on:
>
> When you're near there's such an air of spring about
> it...
>
> I feel I am ready to die, yet at the same time so
> glad I am still
> alive...and so just bliss out through to the final
> notes.
>
> And yes, this just became as OT as you can get I
> know, but I will
> try to keep that pledge about song lyrics. But one
> parting thought
> though. The Gods above us who would send a Cole
> Porter to write
> songs like this and a Jeri Southern to sing it "must
> be in the know"
> and that's for sure.
>
It's quite lovely, but the version of "E'vry Time We
Say Goodbye" that really lays me out is the one Annie
Lennox does in Derek Jarman's "Edward II."
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26815
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart PS jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Too Late Now" was written by Burton Lane and Alan Jay Lerner. >
>
> I don't know if JPC is wincing over that mistake (the song is from a
> movie musical, by Donen, no less), but I'll admit I am for not
> catching him on it (and where was David?). We all should have known
> better. Thanks for giving Lane and Lerner the credit they deserve.
I am definitely wincing!I realized my mistake some time after I sent
the post but by then was off line and doing other things. I guess "Too
late Now" struck me as reminiscent of some Dietz-Schwartz songs and I
got carried away. Interestingly Alec Wilder notes an influence of
Schwartz on Lane (although not in this song). Wilder calls "Too late
Now' a "very beautiful song" and the release "a marvel of invention."
I agree. It's one of Lane's very best songs -- with "Old Devil Moon"
and "How About You" (the closing track on Sinatra's classic "Swinging
Lovers" album) and "If This Isn't Love" (which Wilder felt sounded too
much like Kern! I don't mind! There a fine version by Sarah Vaughan...)
I fear the wrath of the moderators so I'm signing off (which is the
title of a pretty good song too)
JPC
26816
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Porgy and Bess dreyertati
> The film has been screened in recent years at such locations as
Brooklyn College and the Adam Clayton Powell Jr. State Office
Building ("Photo ID required for admission"). I've seen listings in
the Voice but could never get there. According to one (non-
cinephile) report it was "a scratchy, deteriorated print"
(http://1067litefm.theatermania.com/content/news.cfm/story/1799). No
matter.
I just received a panned-and-scanned dub from www.superhappyfun for
$13: not a good copy, but my curiosity got the better of me, because
I haven't seen this film since its first run.
There's a fascinating essay by Arthur Knight (not the author of THE
LIVELIEST ART, but a much younger film academic I know, teaching in
Virginia) included in a book of his about film and jazz (the title
currently escapes me) that views the Miles Davis/Gil Evans and Duke
Ellington/Ella Fitzgerald recordings, among others, as attempts by
the black community to reappropriate and critique the material
because of what was felt to be upsetting about the Preminger
version. As I recall, it's a pretty smart as well as persuasive
argument.
26817
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone who badmouths Curtiz has to meet me after school.
>
> Correction: Has to meet you, Monte Hellman and Sam Peckinpah after
> school!
>
> I love Curtiz's best work, Roughly Speaking and Breaking Point.
Don't
> count him out, Brian.
"The Breaking Point" is "To have and Have Not" done right...
(I'm running for cover...)
JPC
26818
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cellar47
--- Brian Charles Dauth
wrote:
>
> Think of Erika in "A Foreign Affair." She writes
> her own narrative -- she will join up with a man
> to achieve a goal. Do you think she will be in
> that de-Nazification camp long? I don't think
> so.
>
Of course she won't. SHE'S MARLENE DIETRICH!
> In "Ninotchka" and "Midnight" it is the man who
> pursues the woman. She holds the power. If she
> doesn't consent, there is no relationship.
>
> Sugar and Fran are looking for men. They are
> incomplete without one. They are in hunt mode.
Do you demand this of all characters in comedy and
drama? Cause if you do you aren't going to find many
women to your liking.
> Only in late Wilder. His vision seems to have
> curdled with age.
>
Not curdled at all-- in spite of all the flack he got
for "Kiss me Stupid" -- one of his most important
films. Saw him around town a lot in the last years of
his life. He was almost serene. I knew he was going to
die when he let his great art collection go.
He was a great pal of David Hockney who both painted
and photographed him in one of his "joiners." The
lasttime I saw him was at an Academy salute to Stanley
Donen. He especially enjoyed the barn-raising dance
from "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers." But then, who doesn't?
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26819
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:27pm
Subject: Re: "Haunted Heart," H. Bruce Humberstone, Harry Horner (Was: Favorite Preminger) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- Blake Lucas wrote:
>
> >
> > And yes, this just became as OT as you can get I
> > know, but I will
> > try to keep that pledge about song lyrics. But one
> > parting thought
> > though. The Gods above us who would send a Cole
> > Porter to write
> > songs like this and a Jeri Southern to sing it "must
> > be in the know"
> > and that's for sure.
> >
> It's quite lovely, but the version of "E'vry Time We
> Say Goodbye" that really lays me out is the one Annie
> Lennox does in Derek Jarman's "Edward II."
>
>
> Don't know that one, but, Brian, don't you think the Ella
version on the Porter Songbook is equal to Southern's?
"There's no love song finer/But how strange the change from
major to minor" (curiously there's a minor chord under the
word "major" but who cares?) JPC
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26820
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:41pm
Subject: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
"Inazuma " (Lightning) and "Ani imoto" (Older Brother, Younger Sister)
are due out this month.
July sees the release of Materworks Vol. 1 -- which will include:
"Meshi" (Repast), "Ukigomo" (Floating Clouds), "Musume tsuma haha"
(Daughters, Wives and Mother), Midareru (Yearning) and "Onna no naka
ni iru tanin" (The Stranger within a Woman"):
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000XB5OC/
None are likely to have English subtitles, alas.
I wonder what will be included in Masterworks 2 -- and when IT will be
released?
It also looks like Renoir's "Une partie de campagne" came out in Japan
last year (if people hadn't already noticed):
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001VQVZG
MEK
26821
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:56pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cinebklyn
David E. writes:
> Do you demand this of all characters
in comedy and drama?
No, I do not demand it. It is merely
that I am as interested in the moral
aspects of films as in their formal and
aesthetic ones.
For me, to concentrate solely on the
formal is like going to the opera and
only listening to the tenors and not the
sopranos.
> Cause if you do you aren't going to
find many women to your liking.
I haven't found very many women to
my liking every since I realized I was
different from most other little boys.
LOL.
Brian
26822
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:11pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) sallitt1
> "Inazuma " (Lightning) and "Ani imoto" (Older Brother, Younger Sister)
> are due out this month.
>
> July sees the release of Materworks Vol. 1 -- which will include:
> "Meshi" (Repast), "Ukigomo" (Floating Clouds), "Musume tsuma haha"
> (Daughters, Wives and Mother), Midareru (Yearning) and "Onna no naka
> ni iru tanin" (The Stranger within a Woman"):
>
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000XB5OC/
>
> None are likely to have English subtitles, alas.
Sad about the lack of subtitles, as a few of these (DAUGHTERS, WIVES AND
MOTHER; THE STRANGER WITHIN A WOMAN) may never have been shown in the U.S.
YEARNING is very rare here, and really wonderful. LIGHTNING is almost as
rare and almost as wonderful; OLDER BROTHER, YOUNGER SISTER is offbeat,
but really packs a punch. FLOATING CLOUDS (probably Naruse's
masterpiece) and REPAST seem to pop up more often than the others. - Dan
26824
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:55pm
Subject: Haunted Heart Update cellar47
I've found a version of "Haunted Heart" that uses that
verse you mentioned, Blake!
It's by Susannah McCorkle and it's on her last album,
"Hearts and Minds."
Considering that she defenistrated herself not long
afterwards, those lyrics are more than a tad
appropriate. Alas.
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26825
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> Sad about the lack of subtitles, as a few of these (DAUGHTERS,
> WIVES AND MOTHER; THE STRANGER WITHIN A WOMAN) may never have
> been shown in the U.S.
Looking at the Cinefiles database at the Pacific Film Archive, it
looks like you may be right. These were not included in any of the US
retrospectives. I've never see "Stranger" -- but "Daughter, Wives and
Mother" has one of Hara's most radiant performances ever. One of my
favorite Naruse films, regardless of whether or not is ranks as a
full-blown "masterpiece".
> YEARNING is very rare here, and really wonderful. LIGHTNING
> is almost as rare and almost as wonderful; OLDER BROTHER,
> YOUNGER SISTER is offbeat, but really packs a punch. FLOATING
> CLOUDS (probably Naruse's masterpiece) and REPAST seem to pop
> up more often than the others.
While I am mightily impressed by "Floating Clouds", I don't actually
love it nearly as much as some of Naruse's other work. It strikes me
as a very atypical Naruse work -- with a much more complicated plot
than Naruse's norm and a more unrestrained emotional tone. "Repast"
on the other hand is one of my top five films -- by anyone, anytime,
anywhere.
"Yearning" is wonderful -- until (in my opinion) it swerves off-track
right before the very end and plunges over the side of ta cliff.
Takamine is superb here, regardless. "Lightning" is another of my top
Naruse favorites -- and one of the most "hopeful" of Naruse's later
career. (Again, Takamine is a true delight in this).
"Older Brother, Younger Sister" is damaged by an uncharacteristically
unconvincing performance by a (woefully miscast) Masayuki Mori. This
sucks the breath out of what otherwise is an extremely impressive film.
MEK
26826
From: "Brian Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (Was: Haunted Heart) cinebklyn
Blake writes:
> That's says it well for this and many other good
films. And Brian, please note who made the above
statement.
And what significance does David E. making that
statement have?
> Why do characters have to be positive role
models for anything?
When did I say they had to be? What interests
me (among other things) are the ethical frameworks
filmmakers construct in their movies.
> Is that what the cinema is about?
It is one aspect of it.
> To me it isn't.
We disagree then.
> If I want to sit in judgement of whether
someone is strong or weak, I don't need to
go to a movie to do this.
I am not sitting in judgment. What I am
interested in exploring is the ethical
composition as well as the aesthetic
composition of what is being presented to
me.
> In this light, "The Apartment" for example
has two sympathetic characters in Lemmon and
MacLaine, though if we sat through the movie
judging them we might find them very imperfect
people.
Sure they are imperfect. What I am talking
about is the range of choices and degree of
autonomy that Wilder grants his characters.
Fran is shown as having four choices:
a) keeping up the affair with Sheldrake;
b) suicide; c) life with Bud; d) abandoning
the affair and Bud and living with relatives.
Three are presented as bad and one as good.
For me, Wilder stacks the deck so his
preferred choice is seen as the best -- the
one that facillitates his sentimental ending.
What I find interesting is that Wilder never
has Fran question whether or not it is
necessary for her to be with any man.
In "Love in the Afternoon" Ariane seems
intent only on landing Frank Flanagan, while
Sugar in "Some Like It Hot" is looking for
a millionaire husband. In "Avanti!" a
one-month fling with a married man is
presented as an idyll.
What interests me is Wilder's journey from
"A Foreign Affair" -- a film where we can
watch Phoebe make decisions -- deciding
to go to the Lorelei -- "Yes, that sewer" --
and taking the key from Erika and throwing
it out the window -- to later films where
it seems that many women are more
one-dimensional and circumscribed in their
choices and desires. In the later films,
many women seem to be automatically husband
hungry.
> And by the way, a propos Wilder's gifts
as a director, when I was coming into the
group David and some others mentioned that
moment when Lemon looks into MacLaine's
little cracked pocket mirror and sees what
he has inadvertently wrought, citing it as
proof of Wilder's artistry.
It is a great moment. Wilder is expert at
bringing together the strands of his
narrative in a single moment. I prefer when
they occur later in the film (as in "A Foreign
Affair" and "Sunset Blvd."), but he does do
that well, and very often through an image
(the reflection in Erika's apartment window).
Brian
26827
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59pm
Subject: Re: Billy Wilder (Was: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> >
> Not curdled at all-- in spite of all the flack he got
> for "Kiss me Stupid" -- one of his most important
> films. Saw him around town a lot in the last years of
> his life. He was almost serene. I knew he was going to
> die when he let his great art collection go.
>
Thanks for sticking up for the always (unfairly) maligned
"Kiss Me Stupid"--one of his masterpieces in my book.
It's very knowing and funny, but at heart not really cynical at all,
which also backs up your "not curdled at all" statement above
(and speaking of which what's curdled about "Private Life" or
"Avanti!"?). "Kiss Me" is also wonderfully fluent cinematically,
with the same great use of black-and-white 'Scope as "The Apartment"
and following "Fortune Cookie." Obviously, I think he was at his
best in those years.
Though I didn't see him a lot, I did run into him walking along the
street in Beverly Hills one day. Somehow I overcame my timidity in
these situations and stopped him and introduced myself, as was able
to say I'd written a published piece on him and could attach that to
a few thoroughly conventional "I have loved your work all my life"
lines which I knew was about all I'd have time for. But he was
very friendly, a real gentleman, and I was glad I didn't let the
opportunity go by. As everyone who saw him at appearances with his
films knows, he never lost his his razor-sharp wit and could make
some impromptu hilarious remark at the drop of a hat. I really
thought he had to be the funniest man in town.
> __________________________________
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> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26828
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mitchell Leisen (Was: Haunted Heart) cellar47
--- Brian Dauth wrote:
>
> I am not sitting in judgment. What I am
> interested in exploring is the ethical
> composition as well as the aesthetic
> composition of what is being presented to
> me.
>
And that directly involves judgment calls you're never
shy of making,ie. --
What I am talking
> about is the range of choices and degree of
> autonomy that Wilder grants his characters.
> Fran is shown as having four choices:
> a) keeping up the affair with Sheldrake;
> b) suicide; c) life with Bud; d) abandoning
> the affair and Bud and living with relatives.
> Three are presented as bad and one as good.
> For me, Wilder stacks the deck so his
> preferred choice is seen as the best -- the
> one that facillitates his sentimental ending.
>
> What I find interesting is that Wilder never
> has Fran question whether or not it is
> necessary for her to be with any man.
>
This assumes that in order to be acceptable to you,
Fran must be contraucted as an entirely
self-sufficient image. I find that reductive. She
doesn't simply "choose" Bud "instead" of Sheldrake.
Bud offers an entirely differnt kind of relationship,
free of the opressive power dynamic that Sheldrake
used to keep her under his thumb. You take the fact
that he's a man to indicate that at omelevel he and
Sheldrake are no different.
> In "Love in the Afternoon" Ariane seems
> intent only on landing Frank Flanagan, while
> Sugar in "Some Like It Hot" is looking for
> a millionaire husband. In "Avanti!" a
> one-month fling with a married man is
> presented as an idyll.
>
But different things happen in each case. Ariane tries
to outdo Flanagan -- a femme fatale more powerful than
his Casanova. They both have to abandon these roles in
order to connect. Likewise the transvestite charade of
"Some Like It Hot" With "Avanti!" it's middle-age
self-image -- rediscovering oneself at mid-point.
> What interests me is Wilder's journey from
> "A Foreign Affair" -- a film where we can
> watch Phoebe make decisions -- deciding
> to go to the Lorelei -- "Yes, that sewer" --
> and taking the key from Erika and throwing
> it out the window -- to later films where
> it seems that many women are more
> one-dimensional and circumscribed in their
> choices and desires. In the later films,
> many women seem to be automatically husband
> hungry.
>
So what? I don't find Phoebe's decisions all that
interesting.
__________________________________
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26829
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) sallitt1
> While I am mightily impressed by "Floating Clouds", I don't actually
> love it nearly as much as some of Naruse's other work. It strikes me
> as a very atypical Naruse work
Yeah, I think that's true, and it gave me pause for a while. It's one of
the most amazing things ever, though.
> "Repast" on the other hand is one of my top five films -- by anyone,
> anytime, anywhere.
For some reason this didn't wow me the first time around. I liked it a
lot more on my last viewing.
> "Older Brother, Younger Sister" is damaged by an uncharacteristically
> unconvincing performance by a (woefully miscast) Masayuki Mori. This
> sucks the breath out of what otherwise is an extremely impressive film.
Really? He's certainly more energetic than your average Naruse male
character.... - Dan
26830
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Billy Wilder (Was: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
> Though I didn't see him a lot, I did run into him
> walking along the
> street in Beverly Hills one day. Somehow I overcame
> my timidity in
> these situations and stopped him and introduced
> myself, as was able
> to say I'd written a published piece on him and
> could attach that to
> a few thoroughly conventional "I have loved your
> work all my life"
> lines which I knew was about all I'd have time for.
> But he was
> very friendly, a real gentleman, and I was glad I
> didn't let the
> opportunity go by. As everyone who saw him at
> appearances with his
> films knows, he never lost his his razor-sharp wit
> and could make
> some impromptu hilarious remark at the drop of a
> hat. I really
> thought he had to be the funniest man in town.
>
He was indeed quite friendly. My boyfriend Bill saw
him at the Los Angels County Museum the day after he's
looked at "Sunset Boulevard" and "Some Like It Hot"
together on video. He couldn't resist going up to him.
Wilder was with some friends, but was only too happy
to talk to Bill. He really appreciated the fact that
people really apreciated his work, and was the
embodiment of graciousness.
I think he was one of the few filmmakers who knew
precisely how good he was.
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26831
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:09pm
Subject: Re: Ev'ry time We Say Goodbye (Was:"Haunted Heart,) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> > It's quite lovely, but the version of "E'vry Time We
> > Say Goodbye" that really lays me out is the one Annie
> > Lennox does in Derek Jarman's "Edward II."
> >
> >
> > Don't know that one, but, Brian, don't you think the Ella
> version on the Porter Songbook is equal to Southern's?
>
> "There's no love song finer/But how strange the change from
> major to minor" (curiously there's a minor chord under the
> word "major" but who cares?) JPC
Who is this directed to when you say "Brian?" I talked about
Southern and David E. evoked Lennox in first quoted post above.
I just want to say that I wanted to stick up for Southern, but did
not forget Ella, who is simply much more high-profile. I have the
complete Songbooks, one of the treasures of my whole collection.
Surely as great a set of someone doing popular songs as anyone
could imagine. If it weren't against the rules, I'd write out the
lyrics to George and Ira Gershwin's "Isn't It a Pity?"--an
exquisitely beautiful song I only know because of Ella--right here
and now.
Say, aren't there two movies about Cole Porter, one of them recent
and one of them directed by Michael Curtiz (presently in one of the
threads)? How's that for not being OT.
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26832
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:19pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000XB5OC/
> >
> > None are likely to have English subtitles, alas.
>
> Sad about the lack of subtitles, as a few of these (DAUGHTERS,
WIVES AND
> MOTHER; THE STRANGER WITHIN A WOMAN) may never have been shown in
the U.S.
>
> YEARNING is very rare here, and really wonderful. LIGHTNING is
almost as
> rare and almost as wonderful; OLDER BROTHER, YOUNGER SISTER is
offbeat,
> but really packs a punch. FLOATING CLOUDS (probably Naruse's
> masterpiece) and REPAST seem to pop up more often than the
others. - Dan
Because we went to the same pretty good retrospective (it was 25
films I believe) here in L.A., I've seen the same ones as Dan above
and haven't seen most of them since. Like him, I haven't seen those
first two--THE STRANGER WITHIN A WOMAN is a wonderful title. As he
says, it's sad about no subtitles. Under the circumstances I'm
almost ready to learn Japanese.
OLDER BROTHER, YOUNGER SISTER "really packs a punch." And in fact,
though he doesn't say so here, when he saw this Dan said "He's a
good action director." Hope you don't mind my repeating that, Dan.
It was an observation I've always thought of with great affection.
26833
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:22pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sallitt wrote:
>> {me}
>> "Older Brother, Younger Sister" is damaged by an uncharacteristically
>> unconvincing performance by a (woefully miscast) Masayuki Mori. This
>> sucks the breath out of what otherwise is an extremely impressive
>> film.
> {Dan S}
> Really? He's certainly more energetic than your average Naruse male
> character....
The problem is that Mori is totally unconvincing as a not especially
well-educated, physically oppressive and rather emotionally
uncontrolled farmer. ;~}
Mori was cast totally against type -- and it simply doesn't work at
all. He's WAY too whiney -- when he ought to be intimidating. (The
rest of the cast is just fine, however.)
Mifune might have been great in the part -- but probably Toho would
never have loaned him to Daiei for a relatively minor part. (I can't
recall just why Naruse made a couple of films for Daiei around this
time -- payback by Toho for some favor granted by Daiei).
MEK
26834
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ev'ry time We Say Goodbye (Was:"Haunted Heart,) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
>
> Say, aren't there two movies about Cole Porter, one
> of them recent
> and one of them directed by Michael Curtiz
> (presently in one of the
> threads)? How's that for not being OT.
>
>
And neither of them are much good. There's no story in
Cole and Linda. I'd much prefer a film about Cole and
Ethel Merman. When he found a singing-actress capable
of belting his most intricate lyrics to the very last
row of theupper balcony, with every syllable intact --
it was better than sex, and far more durable than love.
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26835
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
"While I am mightily impressed by 'Floating Clouds', I don't actually
love it nearly as much as some of Naruse's other work. It strikes me
as a very atypical Naruse work -- with a much more complicated plot
than Naruse's norm and a more unrestrained emotional tone. 'Repast'
on the other hand is one of my top five films -- by anyone, anytime,
anywhere."
Naruse was being as faithful as he could to the source material.
Hayashi Fumiko was his favorite novelist (look at all the adaptations
he did of her work.) The atypical quality probably come from that.
Even so, it's a great picture. He also adapted the first volume of
Hayashi's autobiography with Tanaka Kinuyo as Hayashi.
"Meshi"/"Repast" was from an unfinished Hayashi novel and Naruse
contrived the ending in consultation with Kawabata, so the finished
film is actually a collaboration between Naruse and Hayashi. It's
clearly a labor of love and his most personal film, so I appreciate
your admiration for it.
Richard
P.S. to Brian: Since you're interested in the portrayal of women
protagonists check out Naruse (especially his adaptations of Hayashi
Fumiko) if you haven't already.
26836
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
>>
> "The Breaking Point" is "To have and Have Not" done right...
>
> (I'm running for cover...)
>
> JPC
Though it sounds heretical, it isn't. Strictly speaking, it's true.
"To Have and Have Not" only resembles the novel in the first reel,
where the guy renting the boat doesn't pay him. "The Breaking Point"
is more of an adaptation of the novel though doesn't follow it in
all ways--I don't remember all the differences, some significant (I
think the movie invented the Patricia Neal character).
You may be implying that you prefer "The Breaking Point." Actually,
I do too, but it's likely my favorite Curtiz. They are both great
movies in different ways--Hawks just took the title and made a Hawks
movie out of it.
26837
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:32pm
Subject: "An emotion he could not quite identify" (Was THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel thebradstevens
One of the most striking things about the novel is its overt
homoeroticism, something that only appears briefly in the film during
an exchange between Zab and Johnson ("quit poking me with your
rifle", "That's not my rifle"), and a restored scene showing a male
nurse kissing the Sergeant on the mouth.
But the novel offers us the following passage (from the end of the
North Africa section), which seems completely unambiguous. Bear in
mind that this appears immediately after a scene (which doesn't
appear to have been filmed) in which the Sergeant is travelling
across the desert, and encounters a woman who begs him to desert from
the army and live with her.
"Hot water poured on men under the shower Staoueli kids bunched
together to watch the American soldiers' horseplay. I Company was
naked. Arab women pounded uniforms on stones, ignoring their bodies.
Under the shower, Griff stopped lathering as he caught a flash of a
man approaching from the distance. He slowly thrust his head forward.
Water scalded his back. He was transfixed. He didn't show
astonishment. He didn't show delight. He could feel his body tremble
and an emotion he could not quite identify. The man walking toward
the more than one hundred naked GIs had a curious effect on Griff
although Griff couldn't see the man's face. But there was no
mistaking the way that soldier walked, the easy gait, the relaxed,
swaying shoulders. He moved out from the line of men under the water
pipes and walked, still holding the soap, toward the man.
Still under the showers, Zab, Vinci, and Johnson also saw the man.
Like Griff, they stared without expression and like Griff they moved
out from the line, still holding their bars of soap. There was no
mistake. Led by Griff, the four wet naked riflemen passed the
giggling Arab kids and the Arab women. Their pace quickened very
gradually. Then the four riflemen reached the Sergeant and their
naked bodies surrounded him. He was alive. He had come back. They all
knew they would live to fight again, they would live because they
fought with him, for him."
26838
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:51pm
Subject: Henry (Jaglom) and June (Was Re: Henry Jaglom! and a little Caveh Zahedi! lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Kristian Andersen"
wrote:
>
>
>
> "Warren's freaking out in the art gallery."
Or as I corrected it later "Warren's freaking out in the gallery."
>
>
> Why is this a great line? I don't know what you mean? Can you
please list
> the criteria, so I can understand.
>
Well, it isn't "Nobody's perfect" (Some Like It Hot, a consensus
choice for best line of dialogue which I wholeheartedly support).
Nor can it compare with "The world's a hell, what does it matter
what happens in it?" (Shadow of a Doubt, and I wish I could quote
all of Uncle Charlie's lines in this scene, which this wraps up).
You know, Kristian, to be honest, it isn't even "The truth is that
neither of you know what started this annual birthday brawl" (in
Donovan's Reef).
Have you seen Psych-Out? If you saw it and were around during
the period, you might have found this a funny line. But this was
a playful post--Jaglom being mercilessly skewered by the group
just brought the scene to mind, that's all.
Blake
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date:
09/05/2005
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26839
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:52pm
Subject: Re: "An emotion he could not quite identify" (Was THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> One of the most striking things about the novel is its overt
> homoeroticism
I can see why you want to call the passage overt homeoeroticism, but at
best I'd call it subtle homoertoicism, if that. On the other hand,
check out Tag's piece on Fuller for CdC, which may have been reprinted
at Senses. He makes a point of what he calls homoeroticism in Run of
the Arrow, re: the half-naked Indians. But the really interesting
example is the last line of I Shot Jesse James.
26840
From: "Brian Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Porgy and Bess cinebklyn
Jonathan writes:
> There's a fascinating essay by Arthur Knight
included in a book of his about film and jazz
(the title currently escapes me)
It is called "Soundtrack Available" and
is excellent. Knight was one of the editors.
Knight also has another book which is completely
his: "Disintegratging the Musical." Also very
valuable.
Brian
26841
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:58pm
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart Update lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> I've found a version of "Haunted Heart" that uses that
> verse you mentioned, Blake!
>
> It's by Susannah McCorkle and it's on her last album,
> "Hearts and Minds."
>
> Considering that she defenistrated herself not long
> afterwards, those lyrics are more than a tad
> appropriate. Alas.
>
Thanks, David. By the way, I had to look up "defenistrated" in the
dictionary and found "defenestration"--did she throw herself out a
window? That's pretty rough (does fit with the song, though).
JPC, if you read this, we are referring to what appears below, which
I queried David about separately (yet here it is back in the group
after all):
Time rolls on, trying in vain to cure me;
You are gone, yet you remain to allure me.
You're there in the dark, and I call;
You're there, but you're not there at all.
Oh, what will I do without you, without you?
This is a verse in the middle of the song before the final refrain.
You won't hear it in Jo Stafford, and you won't be able to find it
listening for the melody in Evans--I've tried and it isn't there.
>
>
26842
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:59pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> Naruse was being as faithful as he could to the source material.
> Hayashi Fumiko was his favorite novelist (look at all the adaptations
> he did of her work.) The atypical quality probably come from that.
> Even so, it's a great picture. He also adapted the first volume of
> Hayashi's autobiography with Tanaka Kinuyo as Hayashi.
I have yet to see a Naruse film I haven't liked a whole lot (or loved)
-- and I've seen almost 20. This was no exception ;~}
Actually Takamine plays Hayashi -- and Tanaka plays her mother. Both
are splendid. "Horoki" is probably my favorite "film
(auto)biography". I think the posthumous "collaboration" between
Hayashi and Naruse is one of the most impressive in the history of cinema.
> "Meshi"/"Repast" was from an unfinished Hayashi novel and Naruse
> contrived the ending in consultation with Kawabata, so the finished
> film is actually a collaboration between Naruse and Hayashi. It's
> clearly a labor of love and his most personal film, so I appreciate
> your admiration for it.
I hovered a while between "Sound of the Mountain" and "Meshi", but on
last re-watching finally concluded "Meshi" has a solid hold on (my)
first place. Now that I am old and gray, there are only a few films
that I wriggle with pleasure as I watch -- and this is one.
> P.S. to Brian: Since you're interested in the portrayal of women
> protagonists check out Naruse (especially his adaptations of Hayashi
> Fumiko) if you haven't already.
I concur. I think Naruse is the most consistently and genuinely
"feminist" director ever (in his films at least).
Another recommendation for Brian --- LEE Yoon-ki's new "This Charming
Girl". Though I suspect Lee never saw much (if any) Naruse, this is
the one of the most Naruse-esque recent film I've encountered.
Another remarkably Naruse-esque recent film is HUO Jianqi's "Life
Show" -- which is actually structured a lot like "Woman Ascending the
Stairs" (and TAO Hong's lead performance in this is extraordinary).
MEK
26843
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Re: Haunted Heart Update cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
did she throw
> herself out a
> window?
Yep.
That's pretty rough (does fit with the
> song, though).
>
Indeed.
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
26844
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (yet more) michaelkerpan
Toho's own website indicates that Vol. 2 (to be released at the end of
August) will include 5 more films, all great ones: Yama no oto (Sound
Of The Mountain), Nagareru (Flowing), Horoki (A Wanderer's Notebook,
alternately Her Lonely Road), Onna ga kaidan o agaru toki (When A
Woman Ascends The Stairs) and Midaregumo (Scattered Clouds).
http://www.toho.co.jp/naruse/dvd.html
No mention of a Vol. 3 yet -- so this may be all we're likely to get
anytime soon.
MEK
26845
From: "Brian Dauth"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:27pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cinebklyn
David C writes:
> And for anyone who attacks Sturges for flatness,
i have to point to the amazing track into Rex
harrison's eyeball in UNFAITHFULLY YOURS.
Sometimes Sturges rises to the moment. Just
not often for me.
> And yet Wilder fans find this possibly his most
moving film.
And 80%+ of those polled favored invading Iraq.
My favorite is "A Foreign Affair." I am not
moved at all by "Sherlock."
> Wilder was of course deeply concerned with
getting plot mechanics right - because the
alternative is getting them WRONG
Agreed. But I just am nonplussed by the over-
determined nature of his plotting in his later
films. It seems an overabundance of machinery
deployed to elicit tears.
> This is a case of, if you respond to the film
emotionally then all the layering of narrative
and all the leitmotifs and reiterations will
serve your emotional response.
Agreed.
> If you're not involved, then all you'll see is
technique.
Agreed again.
> But I bet you've seen lots of films that moved
you deeply which have equal amounts of structural
carpentry underlying them - almost any late
Hitchcock film would do as example.
I have to admit that I am emotionally moved by
few films. I enjoy them aesthetically and like
to analyze them structurally and ethically, but
I am seldom driven to intense emotions over them
(except when I loathe something LOL).
> Wilder: "If she's not a whore, she's a bore."
Sounds about right for him.
> There's Dietrich in WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION...
The non-Brackett I like best. Wilder's alteration
of the ending is fantastic and an improvement.
Brian
26846
From: "second_aq"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:28pm
Subject: Re: Kingdom of Heaven-dvd +movie second_aq
In a press conference given at the junket for the movie, Ridley Scott
said "wait for the dvd which will be the real version, one hour more"
because the studio wanted a 2:20 movie for theaters . A Montreal
colleague who was there told me that. The Tiberias character is based
on the real Raymond de Tripoli and Tiberias which Scott and Monahan
changed his name to his fiefdom name, Tiberias. Luc
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Sylow"
> wrote:
> > "Kingdom of Heaven" may well be Scott's weakest film since "Legend"
> > and his most political.
>
> Sounds interesting. Another thing it has in common with Legend is that
> it was reputedly cut to ribbons by the studio, out of fear of offending
> ANYONE.
26847
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
> I have yet to see a Naruse film I haven't liked a whole lot (or
loved)
> -- and I've seen almost 20. This was no exception ;~}
>
Thanks for all these comments about Naruse, MEK, and to others who
chimed in, because they all evoked him so well. It's good to think
of him--have about four VHS here including some really excellent ones
but somehow keep waiting for another theatrical showing, so have been
missing him now for a long time.
Comments made about FLOATING CLOUDS were all fair. It's not typical,
but for me it's his best anyway. He and Hayashi were a match made
in heaven artistically, and each of the adaptations he did of her is
different (I think there's one we didn't see here). I don't think
a director's greatest film needs to be the most typical--I don't
think of THE SEARCHERS as Ford's most typical, as deeply as it does
reflect him in so many ways. Lindsay Anderson scorned it for not
being typical. So I would just say with Naruse, let's take each
film one by one, on its own merits, then try to understand him based
on everything that's there.
It's not mentioned much but some very early Naruses are absolutely
outstanding. The silent APART FROM YOU was a favorite of mine;
even more the early sound film THREE SISTERS WITH MAIDEN HEARTS.
If by any chance you haven't seen that one, MEK, you'll have
something to look forward to.
I strongly support any positive support for both REPAST, which is
absolutely riveting, and the beautiful, heartbreaking SOUND OF THE
MOUNTAIN which I've managed to see three times I believe. I've only
seen LIGHTNING once and would dearly love to see that one again.
In another context, I recently questioned whether movies need to
have positive portraits of women as "role models." But I do admire
a director who tries hard to understand women, to give them
dimension, and to illuminate them in a positive artistic way.
Here, Naruse takes the prize for me, too. By the way, I rank
Naruse and Takamine with Mizoguchi and Tanaka, Griffith and Gish,
Rosselini and Bergman, Sternberg and Dietrich, Antonioni and Vitti,
among other great director/actress collaborations.
Blake Lucas
26848
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:25pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> So I would just say with Naruse, let's take each film one by
> one, on its own merits, then try to understand him based
> on everything that's there.
I agree. Naruse strikes me as a director who has been unfairly
pigeon-holed. There's a lot more diversity in his output than he is
credited with. I guess he made some pot-boilers at various points in
his career, but I have yet to see any of these.
> It's not mentioned much but some very early Naruses are absolutely
> outstanding. The silent APART FROM YOU was a favorite of mine;
> even more the early sound film THREE SISTERS WITH MAIDEN HEARTS.
> If by any chance you haven't seen that one, MEK, you'll have
> something to look forward to.
I've seen "Apart from You" (and found it quite impressive), but not
"Three Sisters". Keeping my fingers crossed.
> I do admire a director who tries hard to understand women,
> to give them dimension, and to illuminate them in a positive
> artistic way. Here, Naruse takes the prize for me, too.
> By the way, I rank Naruse and Takamine with Mizoguchi and
> Tanaka, Griffith and Gish, Rosselini and Bergman, Sternberg
> and Dietrich, Antonioni and Vitti, among other great
> director/actress collaborations.
Ozu/Hara!
;~}
Hayashi - Naruse "collaborations"
Meshi / Repast (1951)
Inazuma / Lightning (1952)
Tsuma / Wife (1953)
Bangiku / Late Chrysanthemums (1954)
Ukigumo / Floating Clouds (1955)
Horoki / A Wanderer's Notebook / Lonely Lane (1962)
I've seen everything but "Tsuma" -- but 5 out of 5 seen count as
masterpieces (or close enough thereto) in my book.
MEK
26849
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:46pm
Subject: Re: "An emotion he could not quite identify" (Was THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel thebradstevens
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I can see why you want to call the passage overt homeoeroticism,
but at
> best I'd call it subtle homoertoicism, if that
The equivalent scene in the film (which shows three of the four men
wearing shorts) is subtle homoeroticism. The scene in the novel has
everything but the fucking.
26850
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:53pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) cinebklyn
Richard writes:
P.S. to Brian: Since you're interested in the portrayal
of women protagonists check out Naruse (especially
his adaptations of Hayashi Fumiko) if you haven't
already.
Thank you Richard. One of my happiest retrospective
memories is of a Naruse retrospective at the MoMA
years ago. I found his work elegant, complex, and
unsentimental. And as you mention, I loved his
portrayals of women.
Brian
26851
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was: Mitchell Leisen) cinebklyn
Joe writes:
> I just want to add, following up on Blake's
pinpointing of the limitations of a reading
strategy which uses the concept of "positive
role models" (especially for women) as some
sort of measure of value of the work,
Why should ethical considerations not play a
part in evaluating a film? Films have an
ethical component -- why should it be ignored?
As I said in an earlier post, ignoring the ethical
aspects of a film is like ignoring sopranos at the
opera. Why the reluctance to deal with what is
there?
In the discussion abut Minnelli, you posted that
one should suspend judgment when analyzing the
last shot. Why? I realize that a person is free to
suspend judgment at anytime, but do you
perceive as being gained by doing so?
> This writing does not attempt to argue that the
film is feminist; but neither does it argue that it
is misogynist.
I do not think it is misogynist either.
> There are a number of Curtiz films which are
extremely interesing in terms of their treatment
of women . . . "Female" (with Ruth Chatterton),
"The Woman from Monte Carlo," (Lil Dagover),
"The Strange Love of Molly Louvain" (Ann Dvorak),
"Mandalay" (Kay Francis), "The Private Lives of
Elizabeth and Essex" (Bette Davis) and "Roughly
Speaking" (Rosalind Russell) which Bill is correct to
isolate and made the same year as "Mildred."
"Mandalay and "The Breaking Point" are my
favorites among Curtiz' films.
> Gee, with Monte Hellman, Sam Peckinpah,
Fassbinder, Jean-Pierre Coursodon and me waiting
for Brian on that playground, he better hire some
bodyguards.
Thanks for the concern. But being both a queer
street kid and a defender of Mankiewicz has made
me tough enough for any and all comers.
Brian
26852
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: "An emotion he could not quite identify" (Was THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel scil1973
Yeah, I'm with Bill on this one. I mean, after all, he's not feeling delight.
And it is the sarge that he's focusing on. If it were some Arab man or a
random GI, then I'd buy a ticket. It still would have made a scrumptuous scene.
Hamill was pretty primo back then.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26853
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
>
> I've seen "Apart from You" (and found it quite impressive), but not
> "Three Sisters". Keeping my fingers crossed.
If Dan S. is reading this, he might cast an enthusiastic vote for
"Three Sisters" too as I recall, though maybe he preferred one of
the other early ones. As much as you want to see it is how much I
am "yearning" to see it again. Also, in last post about Vol. 3 you
mentioned Naruse's last film "Scattered Clouds." I only saw that
Scope and color work once. It was haunting. One of the greatest
last works, with one of the most beautiful final images, of any
director ever. It virtually cried out "testament of Naruse."
>
>
> Hayashi - Naruse "collaborations"
>
> Meshi / Repast (1951)
> Inazuma / Lightning (1952)
> Tsuma / Wife (1953)
> Bangiku / Late Chrysanthemums (1954)
> Ukigumo / Floating Clouds (1955)
> Horoki / A Wanderer's Notebook / Lonely Lane (1962)
>
> I've seen everything but "Tsuma" -- but 5 out of 5 seen count as
> masterpieces (or close enough thereto) in my book.
>
Tsuma / Wife is also the same one I haven't seen. The other five
are all superb to sublime, as you say.
I didn't mean to cut your references to "pot boilers." Yes, so it
has been said. I've learned such references might actually be
encouraging about certain directors, as much as when they say "soap
operas," "weepies," or (gasp!) "melodramas." And I have a feeling
when they used to say this about him they were talking about some of
the films we all like.
26854
From: programming
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:27pm
Subject: Korean Films in Chicago - Recommendations?? cfprogramming
Hi All,
The Gene Siskel Film Center is doing a Korean film series in June.
Any strong recommendations??
Best,
Patrick Friel
*********************
ANOTHER PUBLIC ENEMY
(GONGGONGEUI JEOK II)
2005, Kang Woo-suk, South Korea, 148 min.
ARAHAN
(ARAHAN JANGPUNG DAEJAKJEON)
2004, Ryu Seung-wan, South Korea, 112 min.
CONDUCT ZERO
(PUMHAENG ZERO)
2002, Jo Geun-sik, South Korea, 99 min.
DANCE WITH THE WIND
(BARAMEUI JEONSEOL)
2004, Park Jeong-wu, South Korea, 132 min.
FACE
(PEISU)
2004, Yu Sang-gon, South Korea, 84 min.
FIGHTER IN THE WIND
(BARAMEUI PAITEO)
2004, Yang Yun-ho, South Korea, 120 min.
GREEN CHAIR
(NOKSAEKEUIJA)
2005, Park Chul-soo, South Korea, 109 min.
MY GENERATION
2004, No Dong-seok, South Korea, 85 min.
THE PRESIDENT¹S BARBER
(HYOJADONG IBALSA)
2004, Lim Chan-sang, South Korea, 115 min.
ROAD
(GIL)
2004, Bae Chang-ho, South Korea, 95 min.
SAMARITAN GIRL
(SAMARIA)
2004, Kim Ki-duk, Korea, 95 min.
SILMIDO
2004, Kang Woo-suk, South Korea, 133 min.
26855
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Curtiz (was: Mitchell Leisen) cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> Why should ethical considerations not play a
> part in evaluating a film? Films have an
> ethical component -- why should it be ignored?
Of course not. But how those ethical concerns are
expressed is the point.
> As I said in an earlier post, ignoring the ethical
> aspects of a film is like ignoring sopranos at the
> opera. Why the reluctance to deal with what is
> there?
>
"What is there" is never self-evident.
> In the discussion abut Minnelli, you posted that
> one should suspend judgment when analyzing the
> last shot. Why? I realize that a person is free to
> suspend judgment at anytime, but do you
> perceive as being gained by doing so?
>
One can gain a sense of perspective. Do you think that
a film's meaning hinges entirely on its last shot?
Sometimes this is the case -- "City :ights" and
"Street of Shame" being spectacular examples.
But my favorite film of all time doesn't really have a
"last shot."
As for Curtiz, I'm surprised that there's very little
mention in here so far of an obscure little item he
directed in the 40's called
CASABLANCA
Heard of it?
I believe there's a very good reason why he was the
director of this Ultimate of Movie Movies and Most
Beloved Studio Film of All-Time. For all the
confluences of luck and chance that brought all the
elements of script and casting together to make this
film it was up to Curtiz to command it -- which he did
in a manner that after all these years, and I don't
know how many viewings, NEVER fails to impress.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26856
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Korean Films in Chicago - Recommendations?? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, programming wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ANOTHER PUBLIC ENEMY
> (GONGGONGEUI JEOK II)
> 2005, Kang Woo-suk, South Korea, 148 min.
This is the only title I know anything about. Public Enemy was more fun
than a cop movie had any right to be - very well acted, too. The follow-
up should be entertaining: same actor, same director.
26857
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:37pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was: Mitchell Leisen) joe_mcelhaney
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
>
> Why should ethical considerations not play a
> part in evaluating a film? Films have an
> ethical component -- why should it be ignored?
Certainly wasn't suggesting we abandon our ethics, whatever those
might individually be. I was merely pointing out that there has been
a certain amount of feminist work on "Mildred Pierce" which was more
complex and nuanced than what you were offering here. Linda
Williams's piece is, at the very least, as concerned with ethics as
you seem to be.
> In the discussion abut Minnelli, you posted that
> one should suspend judgment when analyzing the
> last shot. Why? I realize that a person is free to
> suspend judgment at anytime, but do you
> perceive as being gained by doing so?
I presume you are talking about the last shot of "The Bad and the
Beautiful." I never said that we should necessarily suspend judgment
at all times. I simply argued that the meaning of the last shot of
that film is ambiguous and that to walk away with one single,
bombastic reading of it is very problematic. Beyond this, there is a
lot to gain, IMO, from not reading films (or any other texts) in a
consistently forceful and aggressive manner, imposing strong opinions
on everyone. The reluctance to impose srong judgment in writing ALSO
involves a certain ethics in that it does not use the act of
criticism and commentary as a form of power over the reader. (For a
fuller understanding of the political implications of suspended
judgment read Barthes's essay on Antonioni.)
> > Gee, with Monte Hellman, Sam Peckinpah,
> Fassbinder, Jean-Pierre Coursodon and me waiting
> for Brian on that playground, he better hire some
> bodyguards.
>
> Thanks for the concern. But being both a queer
> street kid and a defender of Mankiewicz has made
> me tough enough for any and all comers.
No doubt. But i'm not sure what you mean when you say that being a
defender of Mankiewicz has made you tough. You seem to have
appropriated him as your special boy. But he's widely admired by
many in this room, including me.
26858
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:39pm
Subject: Re: Kingdom of Heaven-dvd +movie hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "second_aq" wrote:
> In a press conference given at the junket for the movie, Ridley Scott
> said "wait for the dvd which will be the real version, one hour more"
> because the studio wanted a 2:20 movie for theaters
Cover story - many hands decreed nothing too pro-Muslim, nothing too
pro-Christian. It's bombing in the cut version too - 20 million opening
weekend. That DVD will be out sooner than expected. Glad to hear it
will put some things back.
26859
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:52pm
Subject: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? scil1973
So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe Benefits? If
there were a World Cinema version of The American Cinema, he would undoubtedly
belong. But his American output was rather small, no? And even Sarris eventually
makes the claim that Renoir's multiple viewpoint remained intact after his
stint in Hollywood.
And come to think of it, why exactly is Eisenstein in Fringe Benefits even?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26860
From: Sam Adams
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:58pm
Subject: Re:Korean Films in Chicago arglebargle31
I've seen two. President's Barber is a silly but mildly interesting historical comedy, and Road is beautiful is a natural-light kind of way, but overwrought -- the heroine keeps having emotional fits and screaming out her past traumas. The latter was the inexplicable jury winner at this year's Philadelphia Film Festival.
Sam
26861
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:03pm
Subject: Re: "An emotion he could not quite identify" (Was THE BIG RED ONE - The Novel peckinpah200...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
> wrote:
>
> > I can see why you want to call the passage overt homeoeroticism,
> but at
> > best I'd call it subtle homoertoicism, if that
>
> The equivalent scene in the film (which shows three of the four
men
> wearing shorts) is subtle homoeroticism. The scene in the novel
has
> everything but the fucking.
This is, of course, the type of wartime sexuality James Jones
mentioned in THE THIN RED LINE but denied by a critic such as Paul
Fussell who was also a veteran.
"Men in War" occur in different shapes and sizes.
Tony Williams
26862
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:03pm
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe
Benefits?
I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's Pantheon even
though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1 English-
language turkey. There were a lot of compromises on Swamp Water and on
Woman on the Beach, but I love both, as well as The Southerner. Some
people hate Diary of a Chambermaid , but I'm not one of them. I guess
this Land Is Mine is not on anyone's 6 best Renoir list; still, it's
pretty rousing. And The River and The Golden Coach, both English-
language, are among Renoir's masterpieces. So he has as much right to
be in the Pantheon as Ophuls, if not more: Some people like Woman on
the Beach a lot, and the Joan Bennett cross-reference with Reckless
Moment doesn't tarnish it by comparison, IMO. He came, he saw, he
conquered.
26863
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:06pm
Subject: Re: Billy Wilder (was: Haunted Heart) cinebklyn
David E writes:
> This assumes that in order to be acceptable
to you, Fran must be contraucted as an entirely
self-sufficient image.
I prefer autonomy. When a filmmaker eschews
it, I am always curious to see what replaces it.
> I find that reductive.
Actually, what I find reductive is Wilder's limitation
of Fran's choices (I find that reductive in any
filmmaker and for both male and female characters).
> You take the fact that he's a man to indicate that
at omelevel he and Sheldrake are no different.
I take as fact that the concept of Fran not being
involved with anyone is never seriously considered
within the world Wilder creates. That is what I find
reductive.
> Ariane tries to outdo Flanagan -- a femme fatale
more powerful than his Casanova.
Yet Flanagan is left with the power at the end. If
he doesn't lift her off the platform the relationship
doesn't happen. It is Ninotchka and Eve who have
the power in the earlier films.
> With "Avanti!" it's middle-age self-image --
rediscovering oneself at mid-point.
What is Armbruster going to rediscover? That he
can be as much of a hypocrite as his father was and
lead a double life? And I say this as a big fan of the
film. For me, it is ravishing, and second only to
"A Foreign Affair."
> So what? I don't find Phoebe's decisions all that
interesting.
Cool. I do. No big deal. Just a matter of taste.
Brian
26864
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Ev'ry time We Say Goodbye (Was:"Haunted Heart,) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't know that one, but, Brian, don't you think the Ella
> > version on the Porter Songbook is equal to Southern's?
> >
> > "There's no love song finer/But how strange the change from
> > major to minor" (curiously there's a minor chord under the
> > word "major" but who cares?) JPC
>
> Who is this directed to when you say "Brian?" I talked about
> Southern and David E. evoked Lennox in first quoted post above.
>
Sorry for the slip, I meant "Blake" of course! JP
> I just want to say that I wanted to stick up for Southern, but did
> not forget Ella, who is simply much more high-profile. I have the
> complete Songbooks, one of the treasures of my whole collection.
> Surely as great a set of someone doing popular songs as anyone
> could imagine. If it weren't against the rules, I'd write out the
> lyrics to George and Ira Gershwin's "Isn't It a Pity?"--an
> exquisitely beautiful song I only know because of Ella--right here
> and now.
You know, I mentioned "Isn't It a Pity" here months ago, before
you joined the Group probably, and said how much I disagreed with
Alec Wilder's putdown of the song. I particularly like the lines
about time wasted before they met: "Fishing for salmon/Losing at
blackgammon" -- which Wilder found vapid. Another little known
Gershwin tune that Ella didn't do but Sarah did was "Aren't You Kind
of Glad We did?" which, if I am not mistaken again, was in "The
Shocking Miss Pilgrim" together with the very nice "For You, For Me,
For Evermore". JPC
> Say, aren't there two movies about Cole Porter, one of them recent
> and one of them directed by Michael Curtiz (presently in one of the
> threads)? How's that for not being OT.
>
> I remember seeing the French-dubbed version of Curtiz's "Night
and Day" on French TV long ago. When characters spoke Porter's first
name it always sounded exactly like the French word "colle" which
means "glue". JPC
> > > __________________________________
> > > Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26865
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:45pm
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart Update jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
> wrote:
> > I've found a version of "Haunted Heart" that uses that
> > verse you mentioned, Blake!
> >
> > It's by Susannah McCorkle and it's on her last album,
> > "Hearts and Minds."
> >
> > Considering that she defenistrated herself not long
> > afterwards, those lyrics are more than a tad
> > appropriate. Alas.
> >
> Thanks, David. By the way, I had to look up "defenistrated" in
the
> dictionary and found "defenestration"--did she throw herself out a
> window? That's pretty rough (does fit with the song, though).
>
Susannah did throw herself out of her Manhattan's apartment
window.("defenestration" comes from the French: the act of throwing
someone or oneself through the window. In olden days it was a
favored way of getting rid of people. there are
famous "defenestrations" in French history) She (Susannah) was my
favorite living female singer and now I was left with only dead
favorites! I think I mentioned in an old post that I once told
Stanley Donen that she was much better than the overrated Diana
Krall, which annoyed him because he had just bought a bunch of Krall
CDs and was raving about her but apparently didn't know Susannah.
I have many McKorkle LPs and CDs but not "Hearts and Minds" . It's
great to have the verse too!
>
26866
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:02pm
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? thebradstevens
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's Pantheon
even
> though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1 English-
> language turkey. There were a lot of compromises on Swamp Water and
on
> Woman on the Beach, but I love both, as well as The Southerner.
Some
> people hate Diary of a Chambermaid , but I'm not one of them. I
guess
> this Land Is Mine is not on anyone's 6 best Renoir list; still,
it's
> pretty rousing. And The River and The Golden Coach, both English-
> language, are among Renoir's masterpieces. So he has as much right
to
> be in the Pantheon as Ophuls, if not more: Some people like Woman
on
> the Beach a lot, and the Joan Bennett cross-reference with Reckless
> Moment doesn't tarnish it by comparison, IMO. He came, he saw, he
> conquered.
THE AMAZING MRS HOLLIDAY, which Renoir directed two thirds of
anonymously, is pretty good too.
26867
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:11pm
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart Update damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
Susannah did throw herself out of her Manhattan's apartment
> window.("defenestration" comes from the French: the act of throwing
> someone or oneself through the window. In olden days it was a
> favored way of getting rid of people. there are
> famous "defenestrations" in French history) She (Susannah) was my
> favorite living female singer and now I was left with only dead
> favorites! I think I mentioned in an old post that I once told
> Stanley Donen that she was much better than the overrated Diana
> Krall, which annoyed him because he had just bought a bunch of Krall
> CDs and was raving about her but apparently didn't know Susannah.
>
> I have many McKorkle LPs and CDs but not "Hearts and Minds" . It's
> great to have the verse too!
Next to Rosie Clooney who was still alive, Susannah was also my
favorite living singer of standards (Michelle Shocked being my favorite
singer of any genre). I like Diana Krall fine. but how sad and typical
that Donen would have been caught up by her hype without being aware
of Susannah, who had been around for a quarter century. One of the
things that pushed Susannah over the edge was that the Algonquin didn't
book her for her usual annual engagement, instead opting for young self-
conscious bores like Tierney Sutton.
26868
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:13pm
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> > So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe
> Benefits?
> I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's Pantheon
even
> though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1 English-
> language turkey. There were a lot of compromises on Swamp Water
and on
> Woman on the Beach, but I love both, as well as The Southerner.
Some
> people hate Diary of a Chambermaid , but I'm not one of them. I
guess
> this Land Is Mine is not on anyone's 6 best Renoir list; still,
it's
> pretty rousing. And The River and The Golden Coach, both English-
> language, are among Renoir's masterpieces. So he has as much right
to
> be in the Pantheon as Ophuls, if not more: Some people like Woman
on
> the Beach a lot, and the Joan Bennett cross-reference with
Reckless
> Moment doesn't tarnish it by comparison, IMO. He came, he saw, he
> conquered.
But if Renoir had only made his Hollywood films and nothing else
before or after, would he be in Sarris's Pantheon? Probably not. So
there was something fatally flawed in the concept of including
passing foreigners in a survey of the American Cinema.
26869
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:15pm
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> Also, in last post about Vol. 3 you mentioned
> Naruse's last film "Scattered Clouds." I only saw that
> Scope and color work once. It was haunting. One of the greatest
> last works, with one of the most beautiful final images, of any
> director ever. It virtually cried out "testament of Naruse."
I've only seen this one with Spanish subtitles. Even so, it is a
wonderful film. Yoko Tsukasa and Yuzo Kayama are very good in this. Of
course, the _other_ "Clouds" (Iwashigumo) film is also quite
impressive -- with an excellent lead performance by Chikage Awashima.
> Tsuma / Wife is also the same one I haven't seen. The other five
> are all superb to sublime, as you say.
Audie Bock has good things to say about this one -- so I wonder why it
never made it across the ocean?
> I didn't mean to cut your references to "pot boilers." Yes, so it
> has been said. I've learned such references might actually be
> encouraging about certain directors, as much as when they say "soap
> operas," "weepies," or (gasp!) "melodramas." And I have a feeling
> when they used to say this about him they were talking about some of
> the films we all like.
Nah, none of my favorites (or probably yours) are mere potboilers.
Naruse made a number of films that he dismissed as negligible -- or
which were basically "forgotten" pretty quickly. Things like "The
Kiss, Part 3", "Woman's Status", "A Woman's Story". I would be
surprised if anyone here has seen _these_ Naruse films. ;~}
MEK
26870
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
Heretical as it may be to say so,
> I don't think Sturges ever quite rose to the level of Leisen as a
> director. I do think Wilder did, though not immediately--except in
> some special cases, especially "Double Indemnity" which held up
well
> for me on recent viewing. I like Wilder's collaborations as a
> writer with both Brackett and Diamond, but I've always believed it
> was his association with art director Alexander Trauner which
> belatedly brought out his full directorial mastery.
>
> My favorite Leisen is "Remember the Night" with a Preston Sturges
> script. Sturges wouldn't agree, but I'm glad it was Leisen who
> directed this one. It's a gem--one of my favorite movies.
>
> Blake
I think Leisen's masterpiece is Arise, My Love which has a caustic
and trenchant (and at the time very contemporary) Brackett-Wilder
script, but it's Leisen who provides the film with its grace notes.
If Wilder had directed the film, it would now seem like a very smart
editorial against isolationism written by a wise guy. Because of
Leisen, it has the emotional effect of the famous photograph of the
middle-aged man with tears streaming down his cheeks as he watched
the Nazis march down the Champs Elyseés.
And to think Arise came out the same year as the sublime Remember The
Night. I always roll my eyes when I read Sturges's complaints about
what Leisen did with his script, because to me, the scene in which
Sterling Holloway is singing is worth more than all of Sturges's self-
directed work put together. And all the sequences back home in
Indiana with Beulah Bondi and Elizabeth Patterson (and Holloway) are
among the loveliest in Hollywood history, and have an emotional
resonance of which Sturges the director never even came within
spitting distance.
26871
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:23pm
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart Update jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
>
> Next to Rosie Clooney who was still alive, Susannah was also my
> favorite living singer of standards (Michelle Shocked being my
favorite
> singer of any genre). I like Diana Krall fine. but how sad and
typical
> that Donen would have been caught up by her hype without being
aware
> of Susannah, who had been around for a quarter century. One of
the
> things that pushed Susannah over the edge was that the Algonquin
didn't
> book her for her usual annual engagement, instead opting for young
self-
> conscious bores like Tierney Sutton.
I have to disagree. Although Tierney Sutton has some mannerisms
that annoy me, I admire her choice of material, especially in "blue
in green" and "Unsung Heroes." Her version of "The Peacocks/A
Timeless Place" in the latter is beautiful (although I prefer the
version by Jeri Brown with Jimmy Rowles, who wrote this
extraordinary tune). Talk about a song that brings tears to my eyes
and thrills up and down my spine ("I'm all shook up" to quote Jimmy
Stewart in ANATOMY). I'll send the lyrics OT to anyone interested!
JPC
26872
From: "Damien Bona"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Curtiz (was. Mitchell Leisen) damienbona
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Charles Dauth"
> wrote:
> >
> > Yup. It is also interesting to see how the film
> > differs from Cain's novel.
> >
> That's true. "Mildred Pierce" is a great novel by Cain, and he
> forsakes his usual first person point of view which seems to give
it
> a wider and deeper social and psychological perspective than some
of
> his others. I'd say it's my favorite Cain, though haven't read
them
> all.
>
> I assume you're implying the movie doesn't compare well to the
novel.
> I won't argue that point--and it's certainly true that the greater
> the book, the more possible is disappointment in the movie. se
roles.
I read Mildred Pierce only having seen (and loved) the movie several
times. I was shocked -- and let down -- to realize that there's no
murder in the novel, and that Monty lives.
I think Ranald MacDougall's is one of the great screen adaptations,
and that the film version of Mildred Pierce is much more complex,
affecting and emotionally rich than Cain's. As has been noted, the
movie could not have been more perfectly cast, and it is perhaps the
most dispiritingly negative portayal of men seen during Hollywood's
Golden Age. (Each in his own way, Zachary Scott, Jack Carson and
Bruce Bennett are wonderfully repulsive.)
26873
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas" one. It's a gem--
one of my favorite movies.
> And to think Arise came out the same year as the sublime Remember
The
> Night. I always roll my eyes when I read Sturges's complaints about
> what Leisen did with his script, because to me, the scene in which
> Sterling Holloway is singing is worth more than all of Sturges's
self-
> directed work put together. And all the sequences back home in
> Indiana with Beulah Bondi and Elizabeth Patterson (and Holloway) are
> among the loveliest in Hollywood history, and have an emotional
> resonance of which Sturges the director never even came within
> spitting distance.
I agree and I sang the praises of "Remember the Night" several times
here before! It's just about the perfect film and Holloway
singing "The End of a Perfect day" in the context he does, is one of
the most magical moments in film. I can't imagine what Sturges meant
when he complained that Leisen had spoiled his script. Maybe Leisen
toned down the slapstick that Leisen had such a weakness for (one
scene that is definitely Sturges and that's not among the best moments
is the one where they try to milk a cow, with predictable results). JPC
26874
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:28am
Subject: Re: Ev'ry time We Say Goodbye (Was:"Haunted Heart,) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
>
>> You know, I mentioned "Isn't It a Pity" here months ago,
before
> you joined the Group probably, and said how much I disagreed with
> Alec Wilder's putdown of the song. I particularly like the lines
> about time wasted before they met: "Fishing for salmon/Losing at
> blackgammon" -- which Wilder found vapid.
Yes, but the line that really gets me is this one:
"My nights were sour...spent with Schopenhauer..."
> If it weren't against the rules, I'd write out the
> > lyrics to George and Ira Gershwin's "Isn't It a Pity?"--an
> > exquisitely beautiful song I only know because of Ella--right
here
> > and now.
> > > > Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> > > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
> > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
26875
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:35am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? cellar47
--- LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
> So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and
> not Fringe Benefits? If
> there were a World Cinema version of The American
> Cinema, he would undoubtedly
> belong. But his American output was rather small,
> no?
True. He's in the Pantheon because Sarris, like so
many others, saw "Rules of the game" as "revealed
truth."
>
> And come to think of it, why exactly is Eisenstein
> in Fringe Benefits even?
>
Because of "Que Viva Mexico" -- an independent
production financed by Upton Sinclair -- and because
of his stint at Paramount, where he produced two
scripts ("An American Tragedy" and "Sutter's Gold")
that were never filmed.
__________________________________
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26876
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:38am
Subject: Re: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
Some
> people like Woman on
> the Beach a lot,
Yoo Hoo! Over here!
I'm the one sitting next to Jacques Rivette.
and the Joan Bennett
> cross-reference with Reckless
> Moment doesn't tarnish it by comparison, IMO.
Ophuls really "got" America in a way that Renoir
didn't quite. "The Reckless Moment" is Ophuls' best
American film, IMO.
And the remake, "The Deep End," isn't exactly chopped
liver either.
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26877
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:44am
Subject: Re: Re: Billy Wilder (was: Haunted Heart) cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> I prefer autonomy. When a filmmaker eschews
> it, I am always curious to see what replaces it.
>
Autonomy is an illusion. Like everything else in the
cinema.
> Actually, what I find reductive is Wilder's
> limitation
> of Fran's choices (I find that reductive in any
> filmmaker and for both male and female characters).
>
It would be TRULY limiting for Fran to walk away from
Bud. He loves her. And unlike Sheldrake that's ALL he
has. No job, no "prospects," no more "going up." Just
love.
> I take as fact that the concept of Fran not being
> involved with anyone is never seriously considered
> within the world Wilder creates. That is what I
> find
> reductive.
>
And I find the notion that she ought to throw Bud over
untenable.
> Yet Flanagan is left with the power at the end. If
> he doesn't lift her off the platform the
> relationship
> doesn't happen.
Look at that scene again.
Carefully.
Who is lifting who?
> What is Armbruster going to rediscover? That he
> can be as much of a hypocrite as his father was and
> lead a double life? And I say this as a big fan of
> the
> film.
But he's NOT his father. That's made quite clear. And
she's not her mother either.
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26878
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:47am
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
>>
> > I didn't mean to cut your references to "pot boilers." Yes, so
it
> > has been said. I've learned such references might actually be
> > encouraging about certain directors, as much as when they
say "soap
> > operas," "weepies," or (gasp!) "melodramas." And I have a
feeling
> > when they used to say this about him they were talking about
some of
> > the films we all like.
>
> Nah, none of my favorites (or probably yours) are mere potboilers.
> Naruse made a number of films that he dismissed as negligible -- or
> which were basically "forgotten" pretty quickly. Things like "The
> Kiss, Part 3", "Woman's Status", "A Woman's Story". I would be
> surprised if anyone here has seen _these_ Naruse films. ;~}
>
OK, I'll accept that. But given that you said before nothing had
seemed to fall into that category that you had seen, I'd be more
inclined to look forward to all the ones you mention than say "I
guess we can skip those" and I imagine you'd agree. I wouldn't take
Naruse's word for anything being negligible--this is Naruse we're
talking about, not exactly known for being upbeat. That doesn't
mean I wouldn't give anything to have been able to sit down and talk
to him (preferably in the days when I was still a cigarette smoker).
Have you seen "Hideko the Bus Conductress" (yes, it is Takamine).
This is a light programmer--if you could say that of Naruse--so
maybe it's in that "potboiler" category. I guess it's not one of
his masterpieces, but it's a touchstone work in a strange way. It
would be criminal of me to give away why.
26879
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:48am
Subject: Re: Re: Ev'ry time We Say Goodbye (Was:"Haunted Heart,) cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
If it weren't against the rules,
> I'd write out the
> > lyrics to George and Ira Gershwin's "Isn't It a
> Pity?"--an
> > exquisitely beautiful song I only know because of
> Ella--right here
> > and now.
>
The most heart-stoppingly beautiful version of that
one is by Shirley Horne, arranged by Johnny Mandel.
>
> You know, I mentioned "Isn't It a Pity" here
> months ago, before
> you joined the Group probably, and said how much I
> disagreed with
> Alec Wilder's putdown of the song. I particularly
> like the lines
> about time wasted before they met: "Fishing for
> salmon/Losing at
> blackgammon" -- which Wilder found vapid.
He would. He was such an old poo!
Another
> little known
> Gershwin tune that Ella didn't do but Sarah did was
> "Aren't You Kind
> of Glad We did?" which, if I am not mistaken again,
> was in "The
> Shocking Miss Pilgrim" together with the very nice
> "For You, For Me,
> For Evermore".
Look for Gershwin's sister Frances' album. She does
the very best version of "I've Got a Cousin in
Milwaulke"
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26880
From: "second_aq"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:28am
Subject: Re: Kingdom of Heaven-dvd +movie + CB De Mille's "Crusades" second_aq
The movie is making better business outside US as usual for
historical movies, according to Variety. I suppose the dvd will
explain the Balian change at the beginning which is too rapid . The
Saladin portrait is good and is similar to the one in "the Crusades"
by CB de Mille. Saladin was one of the basis for the characters in the
chivalry treatises which began to flourish in the 13th Century.
Balian is also based on a real character. I'm now reading a bio of
Baudoin IV, "the Leper King". I don't see yet that many errors in the
movie in comparison. Luc
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> ---
> Cover story - many hands decreed nothing too pro-Muslim, nothing too
> pro-Christian. It's bombing in the cut version too - 20 million opening
> weekend. That DVD will be out sooner than expected. Glad to hear it
> will put some things back.
26881
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:29pm
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? scil1973
In a message dated 5/10/05 7:39:29 PM, cellar47@... writes:
>
> Because of "Que Viva Mexico"...and...his stint at Paramount...
>
No, I know that. But Sarris mentions neither. All he says is that
Eisenstein's films have had a negative effect on American film criticism/history. That
alone doesn't justify his status as a Fringe Benefit.
I guess what I'm wondering is why Sarris felt compelled to create the Fringe
Benefits category. Even if he had included the information on unfinished
scripts and a collaboration with Upton Sinclair, it still adds up to rather paltry
evidence.
Kevin John
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26882
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:49am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? cellar47
--- LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
>
> I guess what I'm wondering is why Sarris felt
> compelled to create the Fringe
> Benefits category. Even if he had included the
> information on unfinished
> scripts and a collaboration with Upton Sinclair, it
> still adds up to rather paltry
> evidence.
>
Again as with Renoir it's a result of Eisenstein's
cinematic prestige. "Montage" was veiwed as the be-all
and end-all of an entire generation of American
cinephiles that Sarris grew up in.
Yahoo! Mail
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26883
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:59am
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
"Have you seen 'Hideko the Bus Conductress' (yes, it is Takamine).
This is a light programmer--if you could say that of Naruse--so
maybe it's in that 'potboiler' category. I guess it's not one of
his masterpieces, but it's a touchstone work in a strange way. It
would be criminal of me to give away why."
It's a charming movie. Even though he never made a National Policy
film (a film mandated by the war time government)Naruse was uneasy
about the films he made during the Pacific War era because he had to
vet his scenarios with the government censors and include some
propaganda at the edges of his stories. Since "Hideko no Shasho san"
seems to be the only war era movie of his available in the US, we
can't know for certain if the other pictures of that period were as
bad as he said they were.
Richard
26884
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 2:31am
Subject: Re: Naruse News (and a Renoir note) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
> wrote:
>
>> "Have you seen 'Hideko the Bus Conductress' (yes, it is Takamine).
>> This is a light programmer--if you could say that of Naruse--so
>> maybe it's in that 'potboiler' category. I guess it's not one of
>> his masterpieces, but it's a touchstone work in a strange way. It
>> would be criminal of me to give away why."
>
> It's a charming movie.
Definitely NOT a potboiler. I can't think of any other movie whose
ending took me more aback than this. ;~}
I find it very surprising just how ultimately "subversive" the wartime
films of Naruse, Ozu and Shimizu (that I have seen) seem. Not quite
what one would expect.
> Even though he never made a National Policy
> film (a film mandated by the war time government)Naruse was uneasy
> about the films he made during the Pacific War era because he had to
> vet his scenarios with the government censors and include some
> propaganda at the edges of his stories. Since "Hideko no Shasho san"
> seems to be the only war era movie of his available in the US, we
> can't know for certain if the other pictures of that period were as
> bad as he said they were.
Well, I just listed the 60s films that Bock suggested might be less
significant -- not many 50s films fall in this category. Other than
"Hideko", Naruse's war era films are an unopened chapter to me.
Apparently a few of these were shown at the San Sebastian film
festival a few years back -- so there must be subtitled prints. It
seems that Naruse himself considered "Ginza Cosmetics" to be his first
strong post-war film (and a very good film it is, too).
MEK
26885
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:11am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> --- LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> >
> > I guess what I'm wondering is why Sarris felt
> > compelled to create the Fringe
> > Benefits category.
> Again as with Renoir it's a result of Eisenstein's
> cinematic prestige. "Montage" was veiwed as the be-all
> and end-all of an entire generation of American
> cinephiles that Sarris grew up in.
I know I'm going to piss of Kevin saying this, but:
No one who did not live before the revolution can know what an impact
The American Cinema had on people. For some, it was the first and
most important textbook they had. It elevated Ophuls and other
directors of the moving camera to a position at least comparable to
Eisenstein, which academic theories of montage had denied them. In
addition, just the individual entries were precious to me because
they listed the films and gave a thumbnail analysis of the style and
themes. If Renoir hadn't been in there, I'd have had to learn to read
French even sooner to understand his place in world cinema. And the
other Fringe Benfit notes helped me understand why, say, Clair or
Clement weren't on the same level as Renoir. When the great French
films played at the Paris Theatre in NY, I came in on the train to
see all of them, the crap with the gold, and believe me there was
lots of crap: Beauties of the Night, for instance.
The multiple raisons d'etre of the book include the historical
situation it appeared in as well as any lasting value it has. Those
who had a hundred other books to learn from growing up can't imagine
what that one, plus Movies by Farber (the title I first bought
Negative Space under), the English Cahiers, Wood on Hitchcock and
Hawks, and a handful of other texts meant in a critical environment
where people like Bosley Crowther (who hated the New Wave! was it him
who compared Shoot the Piano Player to "the pieces left on the
cutting room floor"? I know it was Crowther who advised "lovers of
parody" to skip Bande a part and see Batman on tv instead) or Stanley
Kauffman passed for tastemakers. As for Otto Preminger - hah! Ditto
Jacques Tourneur, Edgar G. Ulmer, Alan Dwan, Gerd Oswald (I just had
to introduce Stefan Droessler to GE when he was here showing films by
GE's dad!), Tashlin, Boetticher et cetera et cetera et cetera. There
simply was nothing in English about them at that point, and certainly
earlier, when the first version of Sarris's book appeared in Film
Culture.
In other words, my film education would have suffered if Renoir
hadn't been included at length in the Pantheon. And if he had only
made his English-language films, he'd have been Far Side for sure,
JP - they're that good.
26886
From: "second_aq"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:26am
Subject: Re: Haunted Heart Update + defenestration second_aq
And also in Czech history www.answers.com/topic/defenestrations-of-prague
and if I remember correctly, director Jean Eustache killed himself
that way . Luc
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Damien Bona" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> Susannah did throw herself out of her Manhattan's apartment
> > window.("defenestration" comes from the French: the act of throwing
> > someone or oneself through the window. In olden days it was a
> > favored way of getting rid of people. there are
> > famous "defenestrations" in French history)
26887
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:34am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
.
>
> In other words, my film education would have suffered if Renoir
> hadn't been included at length in the Pantheon. And if he had only
> made his English-language films, he'd have been Far Side for sure,
> JP - they're that good.
They're that good and that's not the point -- I still think that
Sarris was influenced by the pre-Hollywood and past-Hollywood Renoir--
and there's nothing wrong about that, because obviously there was no
way for him or anybody NOT to be influenced. But the bottom line is
that Renoir is not/was not a Hollywood director and was marginal
to "American Cinema".
Bill, I think you are absolutely right to remind younger people --
as you so often do -- that Sarris's book was so unique and important
in the US at its time. I have always looked at it myself as somewhat
derivative because his "revolutionary" approach to American film was
something that was familiar to me and lots of people in France long
before his book was published. But that's not saying that he was not a
trailblazer in his own country. However, let's not forget that while
he coined the word "auteurism" he didn't invent the concept.
JPC
26888
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:01am
Subject: TG's web presence apmartin90
Bill, just about every time you recommend one of Tag Gallagher's articles,
you give a wrong site of publication! Such bibliographic anarchy! The
Mizoguchi piece is in SCREENING THE PAST; the Fuller is in FILM
INTERNATIONAL; the Milius only appeared within a FILM BY post, various other
pieces are scattered elsewhere ...
A full and very helpful list of links for TG's Internet texts can be found
at:
http://home.sprynet.com/~tag/
Adrian
26889
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:05am
Subject: Re: Hideko (Was: Naruse News) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
> wrote:
>
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Have you seen 'Hideko the Bus Conductress' (yes, it is
Takamine).
> >> This is a light programmer--if you could say that of Naruse--so
> >> maybe it's in that 'potboiler' category. I guess it's not one
of
> >> his masterpieces, but it's a touchstone work in a strange way.
It
> >> would be criminal of me to give away why."
> >
> > It's a charming movie.
>
> Definitely NOT a potboiler. I can't think of any other movie whose
> ending took me more aback than this. ;~}
This is what I meant--the ending--and I reacted that same way.
Thanks for not giving it away for those who are "Hideko" virgins.
Hmmm, I'm glad both of you guys seem to like it so much too.
It's unforgettable. Only Naruse...
It
> seems that Naruse himself considered "Ginza Cosmetics" to be his
first
> strong post-war film (and a very good film it is, too).
>
I haven't seen "Ginza Cosmetics"--I'm ready, given the opportunity.
Has "Flunky, Work Hard" surfaced where you guys are? I have that one
on tape, along with "Wife, Be Like a Rose!" which I assume everyone
has seen. Also, "Late Chrysanthemums" and "A Woman Ascends..." which
I know are very accessible. The guy who has video distribution of
these is a friend of mine, so gave me my copies, but I'm sure he
has made their availability known. I know he wanted to get many of
the others but encountered all sorts of problems.
26890
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 2:07am
Subject: Re: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? scil1973
In a message dated 5/10/05 10:18:34 PM, hotlove666@... writes:
> I know I'm going to piss of Kevin saying this, but:
>
Why did you think that would piss me off, Bill? Even though I wasn't around
before the revolution, I am fully aware of the importance of THE AMERICAN
CINEMA. Robert Christgau admittedly lifted the structure of Sarris' book for his
own volumes of consumer guides and those books have had even more of an
influence on me than THE AMERICAN CINEMA. But the thing itself is always there in my
life. About a month ago on one of my weekly video store jags, the film geek work
ing the register was chatting me up about my Leisen picks. "Yeah, can you
believe Sarris forgot him in THE AMERICAN CINEMA?" I asked. "No, I think he
included him," and the dude proceeds to pull out a copy from behind the counter to
check (I was wrong - he's in Lightly Likable)! So again, it remains unique and
important to this very day.
Still, I think JP is right when he says Sarris was influenced by Renoir's
non-American films. And sure, Clair and Clément are not on the same level as
Renoir. But they're also not on the same level as Eisenstein and Rossellini both
of whom are Fringe Benefits. So you could have understood Renoir's place in
world cinema had he been included in Fringe Benefits too, no?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26891
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 2:42am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? nzkpzq
Renoir made a large body of English language films, whereas most of the
Fringe Benefits people made only one or two, as of the date of The American Cinema
(1968). That seems to be the big difference. Plus most of these English
language singletons are not Hollywood films (Blow Up, The Champagne Murders,
Fahrenheit 451, The Leopard, etc) There are some exceptions - Rossellini made several
English language works with Bergman, although none in Hollywood.
I love "Woman on the Beach" (Renoir), too!
I second Bill Krohn's post about the enormous importance The American Cinema
had in the English-speaking world.
Mike Grost
26892
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 7:32am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
let's not forget that while
> he coined the word "auteurism" he didn't invent the concept.
>
Few know it better than I, because his book sent me back to his
sources in France. The interesting question today is, how did he
transform the idea when he imported it? One thing that strikes me
right away is the Sarris is the fact that the book has the form of a
canon. In fact, as I recall, you've criticized it for that (I hope
I'm geting that right).
Turning the criticism around, perhaps that's Sarris's contribution.
The word canon has been tossed around a lot the last 30 years,
starting with Blubberin' Bloom and encompassing important work by
Frank Kermode, whose last book, Pleasure and Change, tackles canon-
formation from a new angle. (I guess I've been less attentive to anti-
canon theory or anti-canonical canons of the "dead white man"
school.) All I can say is that when the subject started to be
broached by critics I like, 30 years ago, I already knew what they
were talking about because I had seen a very explicit canon in The
American Cinema, one that raises in our field all the interesting
questions people like Kermode and Bloom have raised in theirs.
26893
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 7:39am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
That's a cheering story bout the guy in the video store.
sure, Clair and Clément are not on the same level as
> Renoir. But they're also not on the same level as Eisenstein and
Rossellini both
> of whom are Fringe Benefits. So you could have understood Renoir's
place in
> world cinema had he been included in Fringe Benefits too, no?
Misunderstanding: Fringe Benefits isn't a value niche; it's a grab-bag
for Sarris to talk about people who made one or two English-language
films, people ranging from the best to the not so great. What helped me
situate Clement and Clair was what he wrote about them, not where he
put them. Remember, at that point I didn't have access to Truffaut's
polemics - those one-paragraph articles were the only place I was
likely to hear that Rene Clement hadn't hung the moon, even if (as I
recall) Sarris had to limit himself to Clement's English-language work
while wielding the hatchet. There was NOTHING out there.
26894
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 7:43am
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
Rossellini made several
> English language works with Bergman, although none in Hollywood.
Was Europa English? It's been ages since I've seen it. If so, that
makes 3 at the time Sarris wrote the book (all great, one among the
very greatest ever), and 3 since - weren't the three Medici films in
English? It may be time for a promotion, unless my memory is
malfunctioning again.
26895
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:54am
Subject: Re: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? scil1973
In a message dated 5/11/05 2:40:42 AM, hotlove666@... writes:
>
> Misunderstanding: Fringe Benefits isn't a value niche; it's a grab-bag
>
I do understand that. I think we're saying the same thing. But think of it
this way - cut Renoir and the accompanying paragraph from Pantheon, paste it all
into Fringe Benefits (no value implied) and you still have the exact same
evidence of Renoir's place in world cinema. It's just in a different (and more
appropriate, I would say) place in the book.
<< Plus most of these English language singletons are not Hollywood films
(Blow Up, The Champagne Murders, Fahrenheit 451, The Leopard, etc)>>
Mike, I think what you've said here is allowing me to get at what I'm trying
to say. Sarris should have dropped "these English language singletons" (along
with Eisenstein) because they're really not even FRINGE benefits. Renoir and
Ophuls could then comfortably occupy the Fringe Benefits category. And let me
make this perfectly clear: placing them in Fringe Benefits is not shorthand for
saying they are crappy or even lesser directors. They DO belong next to
Hitchcock or Hawks or whoever in The Pantheon of WORLD cinema not AMERICAN cinema.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
26896
From: "cairnsdavid1967"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 10:33am
Subject: Re: Mitchell Leisen (was: "Haunted Heart") cairnsdavid1967
> > And yet Wilder fans find this possibly his most
> moving film.
>
> And 80%+ of those polled favored invading Iraq.
I'm not arguing that the majority is always right, just that the film
IS moving - to some people.
> My favorite is "A Foreign Affair." I am not
> moved at all by "Sherlock."
Yr remarks below explain this to my satisfaction! No shame attaches
to the filmmakers for failing to move you.
> > Wilder was of course deeply concerned with
> getting plot mechanics right - because the
> alternative is getting them WRONG
>
> Agreed. But I just am nonplussed by the over-
> determined nature of his plotting in his later
> films. It seems an overabundance of machinery
> deployed to elicit tears.
I see the same rigor in the early work - there isn't a single element
of DOUBLE INDEMNITY or even THE MAJOR AND THE MINOR that isn't
exploued to the max - he squeezes all the value he can from each
character and prop, using and re-using them for different purposes.
In the same way Hitchcock uses Stewart's profession in REAR WINDO -
he's a professional voyeur; he hurt himself on a dnagerous
assignment; he doesn't want to marry a society girl because of the
nature of his work; he has a high-powered lens in his flat; he has
flashbulbs to defend himself - the same abundance of machinery is
used to create suspense. Most classical screenwriters aim for this.
> > Wilder: "If she's not a whore, she's a bore."
>
> Sounds about right for him.
But I can interpret this positively - in the days where women were
type as "good" or "bad", Wilder is more interested in the bad, and he
LIKES them.
DC
26897
From: "Michael E. Kerpan, Jr."
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:01pm
Subject: Re: Hideko (Was: Naruse News) michaelkerpan
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
{re Hideko the Bus Conductress}
> This is what I meant--the ending--and I reacted that same way.
> Thanks for not giving it away for those who are "Hideko" virgins.
> Hmmm, I'm glad both of you guys seem to like it so much too.
> It's unforgettable. Only Naruse...
Actually, this film reminds me more than a little of Shimizu. His
"Notes of an Itinerant Performer" resolves the story in the last
second -- with only a title card. (Yet another wonderful, unheralded
Japanese classic)
> I haven't seen "Ginza Cosmetics"--I'm ready, given the opportunity.
Available on DVD, but only without subs, alas. This seems to be the
first time Kinuyo Tanaka and Kyoko Kagawa worked together in a film.
> Has "Flunky, Work Hard" surfaced where you guys are? I have that one
> on tape, along with "Wife, Be Like a Rose!" which I assume everyone
> has seen. Also, "Late Chrysanthemums" and "A Woman Ascends..." which
> I know are very accessible. The guy who has video distribution of
> these is a friend of mine, so gave me my copies, but I'm sure he
> has made their availability known. I know he wanted to get many of
> the others but encountered all sorts of problems.
I assume you are talking about World Artists? Whatever happened to
their website (which seemed to disappear sometime last year when I
wasn't looking)? Are they still in business? My old VCR ate my copy
of their superb video of "Woman Ascending the Stairs" (the best US
video release of a black and white film I ever saw). ;~}
"Flunky Work Hard" is a film I'd put in the category of "nice try,
but". It is interesting, but seems to sort of lose it's way. At this
point, it would seem, Naruse was not yet the equal of Shimizu and Ozu.
"Wife Be Like a Rose" is a delight. The Cinefiles database has a scan
of Variety's review of this when it appeared (briefly) in US theaters
in the 30s -- borderline racist and pretty dismissive overall (despite
a few positive observations). The bottom line verdict seemed to be --
the Japanese can't possibly make a film any ordinary American would
want to see. I wondered what happened to the charming lead actress in
this -- and discovered she apparently married Naruse a couple of
years later (not a successful marriage, alas). She seems to disappear
from the film world after 1941.
MEK
26898
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
> Was Europa English? It's been ages since I've seen
> it. If so, that
> makes 3 at the time Sarris wrote the book (all
> great, one among the
> very greatest ever), and 3 since - weren't the three
> Medici films in
> English? It may be time for a promotion, unless my
> memory is
> malfunctioning again.
>
The primary language of all Rossellini's films with
Bergman was English. In "Europe '51" this resulted in
some very weird dubbing for Giulietta Masina. But the
main roles are Bergman and Alexander Knox -- likewise
Bergman and Sanders in "Voyage to Italy."
__________________________________
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26899
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:20pm
Subject: Re: Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> >
> Few know it better than I, because his book sent me back to his
> sources in France. The interesting question today is, how did he
> transform the idea when he imported it? One thing that strikes me
> right away is the Sarris is the fact that the book has the form of
a
> canon. In fact, as I recall, you've criticized it for that (I hope
> I'm geting that right).
>
I did, because of what I consider the unavoidable arbitrariness
of pigeonholing directors into categories, especially in
preferential ones, working your way down from "Pantheon" to the
mixed bags of "Likely likeable," "oddities" and "miscellany" names
from which could be randomly switched from one category to another.
At the risk of sounding unbearably smug I'd like to say that way
back when I started to write about film we believed, rightly or
wrongly, that hierarchies were self-evident and the strictures of a
canon were not needed. For the record, "20 ANS DE CINEMA AMERICAIN"
(a deeply flawed effort, I'll admit)was published in 1961, seven
years before Sarris's book and three years before the Film Culture
piece that he called the "framework" for "THE AMERICAN CINEMA". From
the very beginning we were against categories and we never changed
our position on that over the decades. This had nothing to do with
preserving what Sarris called "the spurious facade of 'objectivity'"
since he was of course right in saying that "There is no such thing
as an objective film history" (or indeed an objective history of
anything).
Ultimately it's a proof-of-the-pudding thing. Sarris helped a lot
of American viewers with his approach and that's enough to justify
it. Personally I never found it helpful, although I always enjoyed
reading him.
JPC
26900
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:57pm
Subject: re: defenestration (Eustache) apmartin90
Luc wrote:
"if I remember correctly, director Jean Eustache killed himself
that way : the act of throwing oneself through the window."
You do not remember correctly, Luc! Or rather, you have conflated two
incidents in Eustache's life. He crippled himself in a bungled suicide
attempt, which was the defenestration part; and he ended his life by
shooting himself. The Evane Hanska book MES ANNEES EUSTACHE (a
compelling if sometimes rather trashy read) has all the gory details.
It's odd that we haven't seen yet some faintly concealed
'fictionalisation' of Eustache's life or character in French cinema yet
(maybe there has been?). Perhaps Garrel will do it some day ...
Adrian
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