Home Film
Art
Other: (Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact
a_film_by Main Page
Posts From the Internet Film Discussion Group, a_film_by
This group is dedicated to discussing film as art
from an auteurist perspective. The index to these files of posts can be found at http://www.fredcamper.com/afilmby/ The purpose of these files is to make our posts more accessible, for downloading and reading and to search engines.
Important: The copyright of each post below is owned by the
person who wrote the post, and reproducing it in any form requires
that person's permission.
It is possible to email the author of any post by finding a post
they have written in the a_film_by archives at
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/messages and
emailing them from that Web site.
27201
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: How Robert Bresson Saved David E. From Drowning cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
I only disagree
> with David about
> what happens after the fadeout--not because I don't
> think it could
> be the way he says--but because as I've said before
> I never
> speculate about what happens after the end of the
> film. To me, this
> is all we know, and we just don't know what happens
> next, because
> the world of the film is now closed to us.
>
Well of course. I was simply inspired to jump over the
wall myself.
At the end of the "A Man Escaped," as
> they come over the
> last wall and are on the ground, Fontaine throws an
> arm around Jost
> hard and with a sublime expression on his face says
> "Jost!" Then
> they turn and walk quickly off. finally enclosed by
> mist--very
> beautiful imagery. I know Bresson is in some way
> "austere" but when
> Fontaine throws his arm around the other and says
> "Jost!" I break
> into tears--especially so on this viewing--and feel
> those tears
> through the walk into the mist. Am I responding to
> my empathy for
> the two escaped men, or to the "transcendent art"
> (replete with
> Mozart on the soundtrack) which Bresson has created?
> I find that
> question impossible to answer.
And for me it's one of the most romantic moments in
movies -- right up there with the climactic motorcylce
ride in "Wide Reeds" and Pascale Greggory looking up
at the hotel room window at the end of "Those Who Love Me."
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
27202
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band dreyertati
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
> I've seen two versions of THE ONE MAN BAND. The one which was shown
> once on the French/German channel ARTE, and the more easily available
> version. The most obvious difference is that the early version
> doesn't include either of the clips from THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.
> I didn't know that Bogdanovich was responsible for the second
> version. Or is there now a third version edited by Mr B?
I believe it's the latter. And I'm afraid that I disagree wirh Bill's
post in just about every respect, though I'd add that I don't much like
ANY of the versions of THE ONE MAN BAND. As I recall, Peter B.'s
version includes clips and discussions of all the studio films that we
know already, which reduces the amount of time that can be devoted to
the unseen stuff.
As for preferring the F FOR FAKE trailer to F FOR FAKE--personally, I
don't feel a need to make a choice, but every time I resee F FOR FAKE,
it becomes much, more richer. And my liner notes on the just-released
Criterion DVD explains why and how in some detail. But, then again, I'm
making this the concluding piece in my collection DISCOVERING ORSON
WELLES, so I guess one could argue that I'm invested in this position.
But so, IMO, was Welles, who spent more time editing this film than he
spent editing any of his other completed features. And I think this
work is plainly visible in the film itself. The notion that
Welles "abandoned" or lost interest in this film at some point truly
baffles me. If you have any evidence pointing to this, Bill, I'd love
to hear it.
Jonathan
27203
From: "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band dreyertati
I'm thrilled Peter ran
> the trailer fill length, although someday it should be replaced with
> the color version restored by Stefan DRoessler.
My impression is that this restoration hasn't yet been completed--or,
if it has, it was completed too late to be included on the Criterion
DVD, which has the b&w work print.
An interesting feature of the trailer is that Welles's name isn't
mentioned even once in it--except for when Gary says something
like, "Three seconds more, Orson," towards the end.
27204
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
>
> Is it acceptable for serious auteurist types such as
> ourselves to
> like that Maria Montez-Jon Hall-Sabu-Turhan Bey
> Technicolor cycle
> of mid-forties?
Wellthere should be!
Because I must admit that I do.
> There is something
> about those delirious dreamscapes that to me seems
> quintessentially
> cinematic.
And Jack Smith would agree. He states the case for
Maria Montez as autuer most forcefully.
In THE AMERICAN CINEMA, Andrew Sarris
> has a memorable
> line which we all know (it's in Zinnemann): "Only
> those who risk
> the ridiculous have a real shot at the sublime."
> Well, I don't know
> if "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves" quite makes it
> to the sublime,
> but it does "risk the ridiculous" (does anyone
> remember the singing
> thieves riding along to the final battle, Andy
> Devine among them?).
> That was Arthur Lubin--I always felt "he's got
> something."
Well you can take that a number of ways, Blake. Some
of them salacious.
And
> frankly, in it's way, I really believe this is a
> good movie.
Well sure. It satisfies basic moveness requirements
like a good 40's programmer.
Plus it's got the doomed Scottie Beckett playing Jon
Hall as a child.
Then
> there's "Cobra Woman" (Siodmak) in which Montez
> plays twins. I must
> admit that I literally get giddy when she does her
> cobra dance.
> This is not Bresson or Ophuls you understand. But
> still... And
> even "Sudan" (Waggner) which somehow provides a
> final epiphany...
>
> So what's the answer? And please don't make me "The
> Exile" for
> admitting all this...
>
Well what is the question?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
27205
From: "peterhenne"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:52pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux peterhenne
Online Now Send IM
Brian,
I'm glad you made this post, because I caught the film for the first
time last night on TCM and wrote some impressions about it to a friend
this morning. I'm offering what I said, unedited and only a jotting,
but maybe it will be a little bit helpful vis-a-vis Leone:
I enjoyed it more than Leone's Westerns, which it obviously resembles.
But this one seems more purely nonsense and satire, and to me at least
the cinematography was more refined. In short, it pushes Leone's
aesthetics out in the open, rather than cut mockery of a genre with
nostalgia which I think Leone does. Maybe the definition of camp is
just that, nostalgic affection for that which you show contempt. "Once
Upon a Time in the West" is camp, but "My Name Is Nobody" is too out-
and-out absurd to be called that. It "plays" the Western like an
accordion, so to speak, pushing and pulling it in different ways to
get different "noises" (all the bizarre flourishes of the film). At
least, those are some preliminary notes on the film. Other than that
he's Italian, I don't know anything about the director.
Peter
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> I watched "My Name is Nobody" last night.
>
> The last time this film was discussed, some members
> said Leone himself directed it, but didn't sign.
>
> I looked closely, but was unable to see his hand.
>
> I recorded it, so can anyone give me pointers on what
> I should focus on.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Brian
27206
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:24pm
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> It's almost a week since this briefly came up but promised to say
just
> a few words on its behalf, so here they are. First, as everyone
will
> recall, the subject first came up as to where Ophuls and Renoir
should
> have been placed in Sarris' THE AMERICAN CINEMA--Pantheon (probably
> most accord both a place here when all their work is considered) or
> Fringe Benefits given the relative few American films of each. I
> won't try to place Renoir here, but just want to say this about
Ophuls.
> If it had been suggested that any of his four American ones was a
> turkey, I would have disagreed. Remarkably, I think all four are
> masterpieces, and I emphatically feel he deserves a place in the
> pantheon of American cinema.
I never questioned that - I just suggested that Rossellini should be
in the pantheon too, and suggested as a thought experiment comparing
his three femme-mellers to Ophuls' three, and his one English-
language costumer (Medici) to The Exile. I think he comes out
slightly ahead. But I'll re-see The Exile, obviously.
27207
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:27pm
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
>
> However, Bill, to the best of my knowledge there are no "snow
scenes" from
> "The Dreamers." I haven't viewed any of the three edits of OMB in
about a year,
> so I am going on memory here, but I believe what you are seeing are
some new
> shots done by the original director of OMB to accompany narration -
it's in
> all versions of the documentary, but was definitely not shot by
Welles.
I assumed that based on the reference to a Swiss crew at the end in
the incorporated credits for the German version - just checking.
One of the most exciting of PB's additions in OMB is
> the little promo he put together of "The Other Side of the Wind";
PB reads a
> cast list and we see a shot from the film of each cast member.
There are a lot
> of shots there that I've never seen before!
Not in the commercial copy I bought at Amoeba.
27208
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:29pm
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Rosenbaum"
wrote:
The notion that
> Welles "abandoned" or lost interest in this film at some point truly
> baffles me. If you have any evidence pointing to this, Bill, I'd love
> to hear it.
>
Stefan interviewed the editor, who was quite proud that she was left to
finish the editing herself. It was late in the process.
27209
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:52pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> I watched "My Name is Nobody" last night.
>
> The last time this film was discussed, some members
> said Leone himself directed it, but didn't sign.
That was me. I've never seen any documentation, but I did happen to see
a note somewhere, recently, to the effect that he "directed some
scenes." He of course produced it and therefore is responsible for
script, casting, etc. And he seems to have supervised the shooting
closely. But I really have never seen anything definitive on the
traditional identification of it as a Leone film - it is just something
I and many others have assumed since it first appeared. For me it is
almost as good as the ones he signed, if not better in some respects -
ie (even) more pleasurable.
27210
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:52pm
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) cinebklyn
Blake asks:
> So what's the answer? And please don't
make me "The Exile" for admitting all this...
The answer is that it's all good. Sometimes
I am in the mood for Tarkovsky's "Stalker."
Sometimes I want Siodmak's "Cobra Woman."
What I refuse to do is create a hierarchy where
one of these films is "better" or "greater" than
the other. I think it was Paul Rudnick who once
said that the only real sin is the refusal of joy.
Both "Stalker" and "Cobra Woman" give me joy
in different ways, but joy nonetheless. When
presented with riches, why worry if others
acknowledge their value?
Brian
27211
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:01pm
Subject: Re: Kung Fu Hustle peckinpah200...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> 'The film is a masterpiece. As a friend of mine told me, "its so
good it
> looks like it must be from the future."'
>
> Charley, your friend has made an immortal (and true) remark there!
> > Adrian
But we should not forget Chow's earlier work such as GOD OF GAMBLES
III: BACK TO SHANGHAI, a hilarious spoof of BACK TO THE FUTURE which
begins with Chow impersonating Bai Ying's white-haired eunch from King
Ku's DRAGON GATE INN. Chow, Gong Liu and the incomparable Ng Man-tat
play dual roles and the most superb part of the film is a Busby
Berkeley musical recreation of an anachronistic opening of the first
MacDonalds in old Shanghai.
Gong also proved herself a great comic foil to Stephen in an earlier
film they made together.
Although his Cantonese comic slang can not be translated into English
just enjoy the mastery of his mobile articulation which does transcend
national barriers though there is none of it in KUNG FU HUSTLE.
YesAsia.com had a great article showing how the film represented a
fond parody of old Shaw Brothers classics such as HOUSE OF 72 TENANTS
and others.
Ironically, in THE MAGNIFICENT SCOUNDRELS, archetypal Triad heavy Roy
Cheung does prove more funnier than Stephen but the bitter sweet KING
OF COMEDY (2000) is also worth seeing for its conclusion with a
theatrical performance of the narrative behind FIST OF FURY. As I
mentioned in an earlier posting, Stephen Chow is the Eastern version
of the comedian wanting to play Hamlet. But in this case it is Bruce
Lee, a star he has been fascinated by ever since LEGEND OF THE DRAGON
which also features one member of the 7 Little Fortunes,Yeuh Wah, who
also plays Paris in KUNG FU HUSTLE.
Tony Williams
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27212
From: "peckinpah20012000"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:12pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux peckinpah200...
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> > I watched "My Name is Nobody" last night.
> >
> > The last time this film was discussed, some members
> > said Leone himself directed it, but didn't sign.
>
> That was me. I've never seen any documentation, but I did happen to
see
> a note somewhere, recently, to the effect that he "directed some
> scenes." He of course produced it and therefore is responsible for
> script, casting, etc. And he seems to have supervised the shooting
> closely.
The actual director was Tonino Valerii whose other Italian Westerns -
DAY OF ANGER, A REASON TO LIVE, A REASON TO DIE, and THE PRICE OF
POWER (an Italian Western version of the Kennedy assassination with
Van Johnson playing "JFK/Garfield, a black set up to be Lee Harvey
Oswald, and the head of the conspirators named Wallace) - certainly do
not resemble anything contained in MY NAME IS NOBODY.
Leone was producer. But even if he did direct a few scenes, he may
have left the rest of the film to somebody very familiar with his
style. In this way, Valerii may resemble Paul Stewart who rehearsed
the Mercury Theater on the Air until Orson arrives breathless from his
ambulance ride from a Broadway theater to finish the production.
Perhaps this maight be the Leone version of F FOR FAKE?
Tony William
27213
From: BklynMagus
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:12pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux cinebklyn
Peter writes:
> . . . but "My Name Is Nobody" is too out-
and-out absurd to be called that. It "plays"
the Western like an accordion, so to speak,
pushing and pulling it in different ways to
get different "noises" (all the bizarre
flourishes of the film).
Your metaphor is appropriate since the
Morriccone scores always seems on the
verge of becoming one of the booming Leone
scores before it takes a left turn.
For me, the film was like a distorted reflection
of a Leone Western in a funhouse mirror
which was then shattered and the pieces
jumbled (there are a great many mirrors
in this film and "reflections" of scenes from
previous Leone films as well as repetitions
of scenes within the film itself).
Instead of a great shoot-out you have a
truncated confrontation, while the scene of
shooting glasses in the bar is distended.
You might make the argument that the movie
is actually Jack Beauregard's mindscreen of
what has happened on the way to catching the
boat which he recalls as he writes the letter to
Nobody -- his view of the new world that he
is leaving to go to Europe (the Old World). In
this new world the most famous and feared
man is Nobody.
Also: has there ever been a Leone film (or a
spaghetti Western in general) with such a
sustained voiceover as the one that ends this
film?
Brian
27214
From: "Zach Campbell"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:20pm
Subject: Have I recommended this site before? rashomon82
Hello all. Though I haven't been able to use the Internet much lately (no access in the
new apartment yet), I did spend some of my lunch hour revisiting poet Chris
Mulrooney's film commentary site, available here:
http://cmulrooney.tripod.com/table.html
If I have not mentioned this fellow here previously, let me do so now. He has
commentary (occasionally extensive, frequently of a poetic slant) on a HUGE number
of filmmakers, many of them mentioned in recent discussions here (like Sidney Furie).
While there's no mention of Stephen Chow, there are some lines devoted to John
Cherry (l'auteur du ERNEST GOES TO JAIL), Tay Garnett, Richard Colla, Noel Black ...
not to mention Dreyer, Cassavetes, Pasolini, Deren, King Vidor, et al.
Some tidbits on (to pick a random example) Charles Walters:
"Walters films [HIGH SOCIETY] as a play that opens into a musical from time to time,
and he carries this to the point of casting his camera from the footlights or even the
stalls at times, from which coign of vantage Louis Calhern, for example, walks on like
a hallucination pure and simple." ... or, on THE UNSINKABLE MOLLY BROWN: "Walters
demonstrates from the outset that he is a precise and painstaking director with,
among other things, an understanding of Keaton, as well as an intimate and fertile
grasp of musical film technique."
--Zach
27215
From: Adrian Martin
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:31pm
Subject: re: 'My Name is Nobody' Redux apmartin90
One sure sign that Leone indeed had a lot to to do with this film is
the fact (as I recorded in my little Leone book) that, when it first
came out (and I saw it as a young teenager - it was a very popular film
here in Australia), the final freeze frame had superimposed on it a
caption asking us to follow Terence Hill's further adventures in ...
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA!! This bit seems to be suppressed (by a
black screen) in video versions I have seen more recently.
I do think MY NAME IS NOBODY is a very good film, with many spirited
and also moving sections. Stephen Chow should remake it !
Adrian
27216
From: "thebradstevens"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:12pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux thebradstevens
> > >
> > > The last time this film was discussed, some members
> > > said Leone himself directed it, but didn't sign.
> >
> > That was me. I've never seen any documentation, but I did happen
to
> see
> > a note somewhere, recently, to the effect that he "directed some
> > scenes."
Christopher Frayling's Leone biography contains a lot of info about
the scenes Leone directed: he did most (perhaps all) of the long
sequence with Nobody in a town where a carnival is taking place:
certainly the saloon sequence, with Nobody shooting the glasses, and
the urinal scene. Also, apparently, the entire pre-credits scene. He
may also have worked on the climactic duel, and perhaps the graveyard
scene (during which Sam Peckinpah's name appears on a tombstone).
27217
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:37pm
Subject: Re: Kung Fu Hustle noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Martin wrote:
> 'The film is a masterpiece. As a friend of mine told me, "its so
good it
> looks like it must be from the future."'
>
> Charley, your friend has made an immortal (and true) remark there!
I don't know. I'm willing to say it's very funny, I'm willing to say
it's Chao's best (Shaolin Soccer doesn't hit the same level of
sentiment for me, or is as successful at selling it), but "great"--I'd
wait four, five years before deciding.
I'll have to admit I also harbor prejudices in favor of Jackie Chan's
brand of minimum effects slapstick (at least in his early works, and
most especially in his collaborations with Liu Chia Liang). Chao works
CGI better than anyone else--Jackson, Lucas, Raimi, the whole schmeer--
but it still hasn't sold me on CGI being a genuine and valid artistic
choice.
27218
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:51pm
Subject: Re: "Iron Chef" (was: Kung Fu Hustle) noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/17/05 11:31:34 AM, MG4273@a... writes:
> I've seen a few episodes of IRON CHEF with Oshima as a judge.
Extremely
> anti-climactic. Will tell you nothing new about him.
>
> Kevin John
I thought it a pleasure to see Oshima happy and fed, myself. True,
neither he nor any of the judges seem to say anything outright against
the food (a constraint the Iron Chef-America judges don't share), but
this smiling, amiable persona is a nice change from his films, even.
Although I do remember (may be mixing my episodes a little) one battle
where everyone spoke out against the eggplant ice cream. Oshima (if he
was there) drew the line at that.
27219
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:59pm
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux noelbotevera
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "thebradstevens"
wrote:
He
> may also have worked on the climactic duel
I thought that had the clearest signs of Leone--though the montage of
stills I've never seen in a Leone before, it does have his heightened
sense of emotion and mythmaking.
Not my favorite Leone (still "Once Upon a Time in the West")--but
definitely not minor, either! Liked how he quotes the "Lady From
Shanghai" mirror sequence in his own, even perhaps (blasphemy,
blasphemy) improves on it a little.
27220
From: "Noel Vera"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:08pm
Subject: Re: Kung Fu Hustle noelbotevera
"God of Cookery" might be my second-fave Chow, not the least because
of the subject matter. Tsui Hark also did something similar--seems to
me food is a thriving genre in Chinese cinema. Japanese too--there's a
surprisingly entertaining TV anime called "Chuuka Ichiban!" ("Cooking
Master Boy!"), most likely inspired by "Iron Chef."
27221
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:13pm
Subject: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) scil1973
Blake, thanx for all the info re: Universal directors. But the Haas I had in
mind was my man Hugo Haas. I was surprised to see the name "Haas" on
Universal's roster. But I obviously didn't know there was a Charles Haas floating
around.
I'm utterly obsessed with Hugo Haas. Apparently, he was a big star and
eventually director in Czechoslavakia in the 1930s. When he came to America in the
1940s, he played secondary roles in films by the very best - Jacques Tourneur,
Douglas Sirk. But it's the string of trashy potboilers he starred in and
directed in the 1950s that he's most fondly remembered for today by hipsters like
yours truly. I've only seen a few but they've all blown my mind. Maltin Inc.
felt compelled to review almost every single one of them in his movie guide and
he gives many of them BOMB, casting them off with something like "Another Hugo
Haas winner." That's auteur enough for me. Forget Welles. Criterion needs to
get busy on Haas.
Anyone have any thoughts on Hugo Haas? Please share!!
And I didn't know Pevney was such a workhorse for Universal. Blake, have you
seen my all-time fave Joan Crawford, FEMALE ON THE BEACH, directed by Pevney?
Are there any Pevney films that will convince me that HE was the auteur and
not Crawford?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27222
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:36pm
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>>
> "Green Hell" reminds me that I toyed with the idea of again
> mentioning Maria Montez, who appears in "The Exile," when writing
> about that film a little while ago.
>
> Is it acceptable for serious auteurist types such as ourselves to
> like that Maria Montez-Jon Hall-Sabu-Turhan Bey Technicolor cycle
> of mid-forties? Because I must admit that I do. There is something
David and Brian are right, of course. I don't think it's possible
to love the movies -- or even "The Cinema" -- and not to enjoy that
kind of stuff. And if being a serious auteurist involves rejecting
movie fun, then include me out! I remember how much a couple of my
Parisian cinephile friends and myself enjoyed something called "Son of
Sinbad" seen in some crummy neighborhood theatre circa 1957, and then
requested it from the Studio Parnasse for years (the request was
always rejected). I saw it again 30 years later when writing "50
ANS..." and found it just as delightful (the writers had some great
crazy ideas -- Omar Khayyam writes love stuff for the son of Sinbad so
that he can court girls; there are 40 girl thieves, daughters of the
40 thieves, and a donkey named Sesame... -- and wonderful lines --
they also wrote Ulmer's "Man from Planet X, and one of them wrote
Joseph Lewis's weird and fascinating "So dark the Night.").
As Brian put it, sometimes you feel like "Stalker" and sometimes
like "Cobra Woman". And as Jerry Cordoba put it, Bill Shakespeare,
Bill Bojangles -- it's all entertainment.
And another thing: I don't like the concept of "guilty pleasure."
Pleasure should never be "guilty." perhaps Barthes liked "Cobra Woman"
(or would have liked it).
JPC
27223
From: MG4273@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Joseph Pevney (was: Hugo Haas not Charles) nzkpzq
Have only seen a little of Joseph Pevney's theatrical work in the 50's, and
was underwhelmed.
But some of his TV series work is memorable.
Pevney directed 14 episodes of the original Star Trek. If you also include
the pilot + the two Gerd Oswald epsiodes, they were the best part of the whole
series. At least that's what my youthful self thought - I have not seen the
original Star Trek in a long time.
Also very much liked the "Memo From Purgatory" episode of "The Alfred
Hitchcock Hour", and "The Lady on Thursday at Ten" from "Nancy Drew Mysteries".
It is unclear whther these episodes are good because Pevney brought something
special to them. Or whether he simply had good taste in scripts, and found
above-average scripts to direct.
Live long and prosper, Kevin!
Mike Grost
PS Used to like the TV sitcom "Suddenly Susan". Fred Camper's reference to
Star Trek as "idiotic" brought to mind an episode of SS. Susan (Brooke Shields)
is in a large bookstore, when she runs into a colleague from work. He tells
her that there is a "Star Trek Event" going on in the science fiction section.
"What sort of idiot would take part in something like that?" Susan wonders.
Immediately, another colleague of the pair from work wanders in. He is wearing a
Star Trek outfit, and pointed ears, like Mr. Spock... :)
27224
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:54pm
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
.
>
> I'm utterly obsessed with Hugo Haas. Criterion needs to
> get busy on Haas.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on Hugo Haas? Please share!!
>
>> Kevin John
>
>
> His films are hard to see, but from a purely thematic point of
view I think you can say Haas is some kind of an auteur. The
subjects of his films are intensely masochistic, most of them deal
with the theme of a man's degradation at the hands of some worthless
femme fatale,or unfaithful spouse. He often used Cleo Moore (whom he
married)or Beverley Michaels to play the bad woman and both cheap-
looking blondes looked the part. Interestingly he produced and acted
in most of his films. Subject for further research or expressive
esoterica?
JPC
27225
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:58pm
Subject: Last days, Gus Van Sant jaloysius56
There is some beauty in the sad wandering of this wild Adonis, but the
minimalist programme concocted by Gus Van Sant fails in restoring what
has been introduced, quite judiciously I guess, as "a love letter to
an unknown", since this modest enterprise is nothing but desperately
pusillanimous. The tyranny of the self-imposed representation system,
which assigns to the camera a position on principle, a priori, in its
recording function, installs a vacuum that nothing comes fill in..
and, in any case, not the brilliant - but vain - work on the
soundtrack, the harmless daring parallel action editing, or those
comic interludes that, I believe, lack the intended irony. All that
hardly fills the space and time of the film.
Go see Mysterious skin.
27226
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:59pm
Subject: Mysterious skin, Gregg Araki jaloysius56
Pretty good. I believe that the success here lies mainly in the deep
honesty of both the views and the gaze. Araki seems to have left away
the somewhat trash side that, in my thin memories, jammed the Doom
Generation. Each scene, each shot, gives a rare sense of fullness,
the one of fully accepted gestures, as primitive and innocent. A world
of all the possibles, which defuses any a priori moral judgment. This
dark and cruel film is straight. I like that. One could only regret
that Araki appears to be so fascinated by the main actor that he
eventually comes to neglect the others.
27227
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:11am
Subject: Re: Who Sarris forgot / Question to JP jaloysius56
Speaking of omissions, Jean-Pierre, I was surprised not to see in "50
ans", Joe Dante or even John Landis, especially considering
the "additional filmography" at the end, which adds a dozen of recent
filmmakers (starting about '80), including Rob Reiner or Oliver Stone.
Any particular reason? I know that choices have to be made, but,
well... Rob Reiner and not Joe Dante?
Maxime
27228
From: MG4273@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Joan Crawford (was: Hugo Haas not Charles) nzkpzq
In a message dated 05-05-17 19:17:28 EDT, Kevin John writes:
<< And I didn't know Pevney was such a workhorse for Universal. Blake, have
you
seen my all-time fave Joan Crawford, FEMALE ON THE BEACH, directed by
Pevney?
Are there any Pevney films that will convince me that HE was the auteur and
not Crawford? >>
Only vaguely remember this. The outside steps on the beach house were cool,
if memory serves.
Is this film really better than:
Our Dancing Daughters (Harry Beaumont, 1928) (the birth of Art Deco in
Hollywood!)
Possessed (Clarence Brown, 1931) (Lots of long takes, and the astonishing
train shot)
Johnny Guitar (Nicholas Ray, 1954) (I'm in my own house, playing my own
piano!)
Mike Grost
27229
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:16pm
Subject: Re: Last days, Gus Van Sant scil1973
How the hell did you get to see LAST DAYS already?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27230
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:18am
Subject: Re: Last days, Gus Van Sant jaloysius56
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> How the hell did you get to see LAST DAYS already?
Released in French theaters just after Cannes premiere.
27231
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) scil1973
In a message dated 5/17/05 7:02:43 PM, jpcoursodon@... writes:
> Subject for further research or expressive esoterica?
>
Well, he certainly needs further research. But is "Subject for further
research" an eternal category?
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27232
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:28am
Subject: Re: Mysterious skin, Gregg Araki cellar47
--- Maxime Renaudin wrote:
One
> could only regret
> that Araki appears to be so fascinated by the main
> actor that he
> eventually comes to neglect the others.
>
>
Well maybe YOU do, but I certainly don't! Joseph
Gordon-Levett, who has been acting since age 6, and
made his motion picture debut at 10 in "A River Runs
Throught It" (playing Craig Scheiffer as a kid) is so
beautiful I've come dangerously close to passing out
in his presence.
He's also a superb actor. This is his "My Own Private
Idaho." Luckily he's got his head screwed on much
tighter than poor, doomed River.
Joe's "family resemblance" to James Duvall -- Greg's
leading man/fetish object for quite a number of years
-- is clearly not coincidental.
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
27233
From: "Gabe Klinger"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:35am
Subject: Re: Last days, Gus Van Sant gcklinger
> Go see Mysterious skin.
Hoberman might tell you to see both. From his Village Voice article:
... the deceptively modest Last Days—inspired by the death of Kurt Cobain—is Van Sant's
masterpiece [WA WA WE WA!], which is to say, his best filmmaking in the 20 years since
the similarly direct and affecting Mala Noche. Last Days is as pared down and worked out
as his experimental Gerry or his Cannes-winning evocation of the Columbine massacre,
Elephant—indeed, it's even more productively reductive.
27234
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:36am
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> Blake, thanx for all the info re: Universal directors. But the
Haas I had in
> mind was my man Hugo Haas. I was surprised to see the name "Haas"
on
> Universal's roster. But I obviously didn't know there was a
Charles Haas floating
> around.
> Anyone have any thoughts on Hugo Haas? Please share!!
I'm sure you've already read Coursodon's reply to this, going over
Hugo Haas' career as director/producer/actor in the 50s a little
more. Two footnotes: One, he is not related to Charles Haas.
Two, oddly, three of those 50s movies were Universal-International
releases, but definitely not their pictures. They were strictly
pickups, using only Hugo's own craftspeople--though possibly,
they struck a deal to have him use their contract guy John Agar in
HOLD BACK TOMORROW (condemned to die, Agar's last request is to have
a woman, Cleo Moore, for his last night on earth--very interesting
movie). I'm not sure about that because Haas had used Agar before.
KINGS OF THE Bs, with Hugo's filmography, shows that he just moved
around from studio to studio to get his pictures released. I've
seen a few of them and would like to see more. The ones I saw were
interesting. You mentioned some great directors whose films he
acted in--I don't remember which Tourneur it was, but do remember
him in Sirk's "Summer Storm" in a pretty big part.
>
> And I didn't know Pevney was such a workhorse for Universal.
Blake, have you
> seen my all-time fave Joan Crawford, FEMALE ON THE BEACH, directed
by Pevney?
> Are there any Pevney films that will convince me that HE was the
auteur and
> not Crawford?
>
Unfortunately, Kevin, I have seen all of Pevney's U-I movies but one,
and all of his subsequent theatrical movies, and am afraid if I
start writing about him right now I won't be able to stop!
I'll have to pick it up later from Mike's thread. But two things.
One, Mike--if you see this--I feel you are wrong about Pevney. But
possibly you have been unlucky in the films you saw, because the
problem with him is that he is much better at some kinds of films
than others. Colorful escapism, of which he did a lot, tends not
to be his thing (though there are moments). On loan, he did one of
the least of Martin and Lewis comedies--THREE RING CIRCUS (one on
which the two stars had a lot of personal trouble too). But in a
certain kind of melodrama, more sombre than say those of Sirk,
Pevney thrives. This definitely includes FEMALE ON THE BEACH--Joan
Crawford sure got into a lot of good movies, I must acknowledge, and
this is one of them. Her stamp is on it at least in having them
bring in her choice of cinematographer, Charles Lang. Even better
Pevneys than this one for me are BECAUSE OF YOU and FOXFIRE,
troubled marital melodramas written by Ketti Frings. And Pevney
has one movie that I consider at least close to a masterpiece,
THE MIDNIGHT STORY. Have you seen that one, Mike?
Blake
>
>
27235
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:37am
Subject: Re: Naruse News (Hideko) jaloysius56
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano" >
> It's a charming movie. Even though he never made a National Policy
> film (a film mandated by the war time government)Naruse was uneasy
> about the films he made during the Pacific War era because he had to
> vet his scenarios with the government censors and include some
> propaganda at the edges of his stories. Since "Hideko no Shasho san"
> seems to be the only war era movie of his available in the US, we
> can't know for certain if the other pictures of that period were as
> bad as he said they were.
There is at least one other war movie that is certainly not as as bad
as he said, even better than "Hideko" I believe, that's "Travelling
actors" ('40). I'm very found of that one. Naruse was a king when
switching from tears to laughs (or vice-versa) in a same scene
27236
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Joan Crawford (was: Hugo Haas not Charles) scil1973
FEMALE ON THE BEACH is unquestionably better than both OUR DANCING DAUGHTERS
and the 1931 POSSESSED. The 1947 POSSESSED is better than the 1931 one (the
two films are radically different; they share only a title and Crawford). It
contains what is probably her best performance (at least how Oscar measures these
things - she was nominated but lost that year to Loretta Young for THE
FARMER'S DAUGHTER).
As for JOHNNY GUITAR...well, I doubt I'll ever convince anyone on this list
that FEMALE ON THE BEACH cuts it. But watch it back-to-back with the equally
god-like HARRIET CRAIG (HARRIET first), and you might get it.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27237
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:54am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
>> >
> > Is it acceptable for serious auteurist types such as ourselves to
> > like that Maria Montez-Jon Hall-Sabu-Turhan Bey Technicolor cycle
> > of mid-forties?
>
When David asked "What is the question?" the above was it of course,
with a lot of text in between that and "What's the answer?"
But I meant the whole thing lightheartedly, in the spirit of the
films. My fondness for matinee movies should be pretty obvious
now. A lifetime of moviegoing allows one to embrace a lot of
things, and I was kind of unwinding after thinking about Bresson
and, for that matter, Ophuls, even though Montez is in "The Exile"
(and I thought was very good). The American Cinematheque turned
up 35 Technicolor prints of all six films in that Montez cycle a
few years ago and I saw them all, the ones I'd seen before and the
ones I hadn't. The audience seemed to have a lot of affection for
them and not regard them strictly as camp. One kind of learns to
respond to movies when one sees ones these like this at an early age
and you never really lose it when the Dreyers, Rivettes and
Tarkovskys come along. It's all of a piece. (and let me correct
my mistake, too--John Rawlins directed "Sudan" not George Waggner,
who helmed "Gypsy Wildcat"). One note about Arthur Lubin: I didn't
quite understand David's "salacious" line. I know that Lubin was
an openly gay filmmaker--I remember enjoying his interview in
KINGS OF THE Bs. I've never figured out if I see this playing out
in his movies or not. I was trying to observe that I find him an
interestingly talented director with kind of a distinctive profile
in his filmography. My favorite of his movies is "Buck Privates"
(he did the first five Abbott & Costellos)--among 1941 movies, I
feel it evokes the zeitgeist better than "Citizen Kane" though I
do like both.
> David and Brian are right, of course. I don't think it's
possible
> to love the movies -- or even "The Cinema" -- and not to enjoy
that
> kind of stuff. And if being a serious auteurist involves rejecting
> movie fun, then include me out!
> Joseph Lewis's weird and fascinating "So dark the Night.").
>
>> And another thing: I don't like the concept of "guilty
pleasure."
> Pleasure should never be "guilty." perhaps Barthes liked "Cobra
Woman"
> (or would have liked it).
>
> JPC
27238
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:55am
Subject: Re: Re: Joan Crawford (was: Hugo Haas not Charles) cellar47
--- LiLiPUT1@... wrote:
The 1947 POSSESSED is better
> than the 1931 one (the
> two films are radically different; they share only a
> title and Crawford). It
> contains what is probably her best performance (at
> least how Oscar measures these
> things - she was nominated but lost that year to
> Loretta Young for THE
> FARMER'S DAUGHTER).
>
It also has my favorite Crawford line: "I'm prettier
than a girder."
> As for JOHNNY GUITAR...well, I doubt I'll ever
> convince anyone on this list
> that FEMALE ON THE BEACH cuts it. But watch it
> back-to-back with the equally
> god-like HARRIET CRAIG (HARRIET first), and you
> might get it.
>
Kevin your pushing the list toward a Joan OD!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
27239
From: "Maxime Renaudin"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:58am
Subject: Re: Last days, Gus Van Sant jaloysius56
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Gabe Klinger"
> Hoberman might tell you to see both. From his Village Voice article:
Hoberman continues with
(http://www.villagevoice.com/film/0520,hoberman1,64049,20.html)
"As elegiac as its title suggests, though scarcely without its
slapstick elements, Last Days is a movie of remarkable purity and
amazing grace."
"Purity" seems to me awfully fallacious for a film that shines of so
many artifices.
27240
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:24am
Subject: Re: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
One note about Arthur
> Lubin: I didn't
> quite understand David's "salacious" line. I know
> that Lubin was
> an openly gay filmmaker--I remember enjoying his
> interview in
> KINGS OF THE Bs. I've never figured out if I see
> this playing out
> in his movies or not.
It was all pretty much off screen. Mr. Lubin, uh
"kept" the former mayor of Carmel California when the
former Mayor was young "contract player" for Universal
-- thus making the former mayor's adaptation of a
famous best-seller not quite as "out of character" for
him as is generally thought.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
27241
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:36am
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, BklynMagus wrote:
> Peter writes:
>
> > Instead of a great shoot-out you have a
> truncated confrontation, while the scene of
> shooting glasses in the bar is distended.
The shootout contains a typical sly Leone reference to Marx in the
upside-down image seen through the lens of the still camera recording
the event: bourgeois history writing is like a camera obscura, because
it reproduces history upside down. Or words to that effect. Marco
Ferreri told me something similar about a red lantern on the back of
the train in Once Upon a Time in the West, but I don't think I've ever
seen it.
27242
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:37am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
>> It was all pretty much off screen. Mr. Lubin, uh
> "kept" the former mayor of Carmel California when the
> former Mayor was young "contract player" for Universal
> -- thus making the former mayor's adaptation of a
> famous best-seller not quite as "out of character" for
> him as is generally thought.
Which former mayor of Carmel was that, David?
Actually, I think I know who you mean, since I only know of one
who was a young "contract player" there for a few years, and knew
Lubin was involved in nurturing the career of that actor, in the
days of "Revenge of the Creature" (his debut, Arnold), "Tarantula"
(Arnold), "Lady Godiva" (Lubin), "Francis in the Navy" (Lubin),
"Never Say Goodbye" (Hopper, though it's barely possible that Sirk
directed his scene--he was involved in this at some point), and the
very good "Star in the Dust" (Charles Haas, let's not forget him
just because Hugo has come up) in which the actor in question had a
nice, edge of malevolent exchange with sheriff John Agar within the
first few minutes.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
27243
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:43am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
I don't like the concept of "guilty pleasure."
Dito. My title for the Locarno book that Bernard decided to change to
Feux croises was Serious Pleasures.
> Pleasure should never be "guilty." perhaps Barthes liked "Cobra
Woman"
> (or would have liked it).
He loved the Marx Brothers. I saw him cackling with the masses in a
little Paris theatre playing Night at the Opera, and later read him
somewhere commenting that in his opinion "Night at the Opera contains
allegories of all theoretical questions that can be raised relating to
texts."
27244
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:45am
Subject: Question for Joseph K. (was Orson Welles: One Man Band) hotlove666
Didn't Stefan show his color restoration of the F for Fake trailer at
your house over a year ago?
27245
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:50am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
Montez is in "The Exile"
> (and I thought was very good). The American Cinematheque turned
> up 35 Technicolor prints of all six films in that Montez cycle a
> few years ago
Aha! I saw Exile in black and white on tv. Many moons ago, when tv was
where you went for films like that.
27246
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:52am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
>
I didn't cut your post exactly as I meant to when replying before.
Apologies for that.
I remember how much a couple of my
> Parisian cinephile friends and myself enjoyed something
called "Son of
> Sinbad" seen in some crummy neighborhood theatre circa 1957, and
then
> requested it from the Studio Parnasse for years (the request was
> always rejected). I saw it again 30 years later when writing "50
> ANS..." and found it just as delightful (the writers had some
great
> crazy ideas -- Omar Khayyam writes love stuff for the son of
Sinbad so
> that he can court girls
"Son of Sinbad" is one I missed. It sounds like something I would
still enjoy and can look forward to. "The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam"
is my favorite poem--my father knew it all by heart.
Any thoughts on director Ted Tetzlaff?
>
> And another thing: I don't like the concept of "guilty
pleasure."
> Pleasure should never be "guilty." perhaps Barthes liked "Cobra
Woman"
> (or would have liked it).
I also meant to say "Amen" to this. When that "guilty pleasures"
idea came in, I thought, "I don't get it."
"Ah love, could you and I with him conspire
To grasp this sorry scheme of things entire
Would we not shatter it to bits
And then re-mould it nearer to the heart's desire."
>
27247
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:01am
Subject: Re: Who Sarris forgot / Question to JP jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Maxime Renaudin"
wrote:
> Speaking of omissions, Jean-Pierre, I was surprised not to see
in "50
> ans", Joe Dante or even John Landis, especially considering
> the "additional filmography" at the end, which adds a dozen of
recent
> filmmakers (starting about '80), including Rob Reiner or Oliver
Stone.
> Any particular reason? I know that choices have to be made, but,
> well... Rob Reiner and not Joe Dante?
> Maxime
I can't remember. You have to realize that the book was published in
1991 and written in the mid to late eighties. Frankly, I was pretty
much unaware of Joe Dante at the time, and we had decided to rule
out anyone who had started directing after 1980. The "additional
filmography" was an afterthought to try not to look too out-of-it,
but that what obviously not the kind of book we were doing. If we
ever do "60" or "70" or whatever we will consider it but I doubt we
will. Things ain't what they used to be. JPC
27248
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:03am
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/17/05 7:02:43 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
>
>
> > Subject for further research or expressive esoterica?
> >
> Well, he certainly needs further research. But is "Subject for
further
> research" an eternal category?
>
> Kevin John
>
Show me the films, Kevin. Where are they? JP
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27249
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:07am
Subject: Re: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) cellar47
--- Blake Lucas wrote:
>
> Which former mayor of Carmel was that, David?
>
Well it wasn't Doris Day!
> Actually, I think I know who you mean, since I only
> know of one
> who was a young "contract player" there for a few
> years, and knew
> Lubin was involved in nurturing the career of that
> actor, in the
> days of "Revenge of the Creature" (his debut,
> Arnold),
You win on Gay Jeopardy!
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
27250
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) scil1973
In a message dated 5/17/05 9:03:56 PM, jpcoursodon@... writes:
> Show me the films, Kevin. Where are they? JP
>
There are sites that sell them. And I have copies of HIT AND RUN and EDGE OF
HELL with more on the way. If you're serious, send me your snail mail address
offlist.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27251
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:16am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
> wrote:
> I don't like the concept of "guilty pleasure."
>
> Dito. My title for the Locarno book that Bernard decided to change
to
> Feux croises was Serious Pleasures.
>
> > Pleasure should never be "guilty." perhaps Barthes liked "Cobra
> Woman"
> > (or would have liked it).
>
> He loved the Marx Brothers. I saw him cackling with the masses in
a
> little Paris theatre playing Night at the Opera, and later read
him
> somewhere commenting that in his opinion "Night at the Opera
contains
> allegories of all theoretical questions that can be raised
relating to
> texts."
And he wrote a little something about the crowded stateroom...
It's in "Barthes par Barthes" I think JPC
27252
From: MG4273@...
Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:53pm
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) nzkpzq
In a message dated 05-05-17 20:38:12 EDT, Blake Lucas writes:
<< THREE RING CIRCUS (one on which the two stars had a lot of personal
trouble too). But in a certain kind of melodrama, more sombre than say those of
Sirk,
Pevney thrives. This definitely includes FEMALE ON THE BEACH--... Even
better Pevneys than this one for me are BECAUSE OF YOU and FOXFIRE,
troubled marital melodramas written by Ketti Frings. And Pevney
has one movie that I consider at least close to a masterpiece,
THE MIDNIGHT STORY. Have you seen that one, Mike? >>
The only one of these seen here was "Female on the Beach". Also saw "Man of a
Thousand Faces". Did not mean to pass judgment on 50's Peveney - just to
indicate what little I saw seemed a bit ordinary.
Mike Grost
27253
From: "Richard Modiano"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:53am
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux tharpa2002
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
"The shootout contains a typical sly Leone reference to Marx in the
upside-down image seen through the lens of the still camera recording
the event: bourgeois history writing is like a camera obscura, because
it reproduces history upside down. Or words to that effect. Marco
Ferreri told me something similar about a red lantern on the back of
the train in Once Upon a Time in the West, but I don't think I've ever
seen it."
And also in "Once Upon a Time in the West" there's a reference to Mao
in the cut from the close-up of Henry Fonda's gun barrel to the
speeding locomotive.
Richard
27254
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:20am
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/17/05 9:03:56 PM, jpcoursodon@y... writes:
>
>
> > Show me the films, Kevin. Where are they? JP
> >
>
> There are sites that sell them. And I have copies of HIT AND RUN and
EDGE OF
> HELL with more on the way. If you're serious, send me your snail
mail address
> offlist.
>
> Kevin John
>
> I will. I might draw the line at buying Haas stuff, but I'm willing
and even eager to see some more. What is it that turns you on so much
about Haas? I doubt you're a Cleo Moore fan...JP
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27255
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band peter_tonguette
Bill,
If the montage of cast members from "The Other Side of the Wind" isn't in the
version you saw, then maybe there are not three, but four cuts of the film
circulating out there! I can tell you unequivocally that the montage was
present when Peter's edit - or one of Peter's edits! - played on Showtime in 2003.
For me, it was one of the highlights of the entire piece.
Peter Tonguette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27256
From: ptonguette@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:05am
Subject: Re: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band peter_tonguette
Jonathan,
That's right - Peter's version includes a lengthy sequences of clips from all
of Welles's completed features, including "Filming 'Othello.'" As someone
already highly familiar with all of those films, I tend to share your regret
that those minutes weren't taken up with footage from "The Other Side of the
Wind" or "The Magic Show" (how about some of the glorious Abb Dickson footage,
none of which is excerpted?) On the other hand, I believe PB's edit does
ultimately contain more segments from the unfinished works than earlier versions of
the film.
Peter Tonguette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27257
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:07am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey jess_l_amortell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> Montez is in "The Exile"
> > (and I thought was very good). The American Cinematheque turned
> > up 35 Technicolor prints of all six films in that Montez cycle a
> > few years ago
>
> Aha! I saw Exile in black and white on tv. Many moons ago, when tv was
> where you went for films like that.
This seems a bit confusing. The Exile IS in b&w (at least in my experience of it), although the Ophuls retro at the W.Reade in the '90s came up with a beautiful tinted print of it (something I tend to associate with a somewhat earlier era of filmmaking).
Then several years ago, a "director's cut" with an alternate ending circulated. MoMA showed it, but I missed it. The only thing I've ever read about it was by David Cairns in two posts in this group. Although viewing the film as impersonal, he wrote (in #12842): "the ending of the director's cut turns the film into a woman's story and then the director DOES take possession of the film. But purely in a thematic way - both endings were shot by ophuls and both have as much of his camera style about them." In response to a query, he expanded on this in post #12922: "There are two endings in existence, one is Ophuls' preferred ending, the other that imposed by Fairbanks. I saw both versions on a print (untinted) at the Edinburgh Film Festival's Ophuls retrospective a few years ago (the same retro appeared in Australia). Basically, the Ophuls ending stresses the irony of fate and the suffering and sacrifice of the woman, the studio version stresses Fairbanks' heroic achievement." Very interesting!
Speaking of Maria Montez, doesn't the episode of Montez's arrival at an inn with her retinue seem like a startling prototype for a similar sequence in LOLA Montez?
27258
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:36am
Subject: Re: Joseph Pevney (Was;Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, MG4273@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 05-05-17 20:38:12 EDT, Blake Lucas writes:
>
> The only one of these seen here was "Female on the Beach". Also
saw "Man of a
> Thousand Faces". Did not mean to pass judgment on 50's Peveney -
just to
> indicate what little I saw seemed a bit ordinary.
>
For some reason, "Man of a Thousand Faces" is Pevney's best-known and
best-regarded film. It's pretty good--very nice visually and very
well acted, especially by Cagney as Chaney and Pevney favorite Celia
Lovsky as his mother, everyone but Robert Evans as Thalberg (he's just
terrible). But biographies are tough and I don't think it avoids most
of the usual pitfalls.
More on Pevney later. By the way, I know his movies but don't know
his TV work at all.
27259
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:47am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jess_l_amortell"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> > Montez is in "The Exile"
> > > (and I thought was very good). The American Cinematheque
turned
> > > up 35 Technicolor prints of all six films in that Montez cycle
a
> > > few years ago
Actually, Jess I wrote the above. "The Exile" is in b&W (or sepia
originally, though I haven't seen it that way). The 35 Technicolor
prints referred to didn't refer to this film--Montez is in it but is
not thought of as part of that Montez cycle, and I thought that was
clear. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused anyone.
hotlove666 wrote the following >
> > Aha! I saw Exile in black and white on tv. Many moons ago, when
tv was
> > where you went for films like that.
>
Was not around for David Cairns posts you referred to, but please
note I wrote one earlier today and obviously don't agree the film is
impersonal, no matter which ending it has (I didn't know about the
alternate one and that's very interesting). No matter what he may
have wanted to do, Ophuls made it all his own.
27260
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:05am
Subject: Re: "My Name is Nobody" Redux hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Modiano"
wrote:
> And also in "Once Upon a Time in the West" there's a reference to Mao
> in the cut from the close-up of Henry Fonda's gun barrel to the
> speeding locomotive.
>
Great! And the hilarious Mao quote at the beginning of Duck, You Sucker
(aka Once Upon a Time There Was...the Revolution): "Revolution is not a
dinner party."
27261
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:07am
Subject: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
I might draw the line at buying Haas stuff, but I'm willing
> and even eager to see some more. What is it that turns you on so much
> about Haas? I doubt you're a Cleo Moore fan...JP
Totally personal. He plays older men humiliated by younger women. Acts,
writes, directs, eats leaves and shoots. Happily they were sold to tv
in the fifties, so I didn't have to pay to see them....
27262
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:08am
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Bill,
>
I can tell you unequivocally that the montage was
> present when Peter's edit - or one of Peter's edits! - played on
Showtime in 2003.
Lurkin' Marvin taped it for me, but I gave it to a member before I had
a chance to look at it. I had heard such negative stuff about it...
27263
From: LiLiPUT1@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on the Bullet) scil1973
In a message dated 5/17/05 10:23:05 PM, jpcoursodon@... writes:
> What is it that turns you on so much about Haas?
>
A couple of things. First of all, just the very fact that he managed to make
these awful films, and so many of them, intrigues me. I want to learn more
about how it all happened, where they were shown, who saw them, how they were
received, all that. We still have such a monolithic conception of the classical
Hollywood cinema that I think an investigation into Haas would chip away at
that some.
Second, as you mentioned, his films pivot on this idée fixe of the femme
fatale who did him wrong. And really - how could she! His harmless teddy bear of a
profile only heightens her offense. So not only did he manage to make all
these awful films, he managed to make them about the same awful thing.
Third, and related to the above, he's grotesque and I don't mean physically.
Sure, the Cleo Moores of his films invariably go after a younger, hunkier
chunk of man. But that's only to drum up more pity for poor Hugo. So there's a
revolting sincerity to him that I can't peel my eyes away from, like a horrific
car crash. In this, he's resembles Jerry Lewis, only without the safety net of
comedy (or genius). Well, actually, Haas makes these hideous attempts at
comedy in his films, a sort of hackneyed old man's wisdom along the lines of "Oh
shucky darn! That's life for ya!" But I doubt that absorbs any of the narcissism
.
Finally, I've always felt there was something more to authorship than just
the fact that a Jerry Lewis or an Orson Welles wrote, directed and starred in
many of their films and that therefore, they are the authors. There's something
too self-evident about that line of thought and I want to explore it more with
Haas than Lewis or Welles (only because so much has been written about the
latter two). One starting point would be the way Haas transforms the feel of his
films by his mere presence. Every time you see him, you get this sense that
he just doesn't fit in even though these are HIS films. It's like his dopey,
corny self wandered into a steamy, serious noir. Or as if a secondary character
who provides comic relief in noirs was suddenly promoted to main character
status. And now that I've written all that down, I guess that's what his
Hollywood career was about anyway - character actor moves into starring role.
So definitely a subject for further research waiting to be moved into
Expressive Esoterica.
Kevin John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27264
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:12am
Subject: Re: Orson Welles: One Man Band hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, ptonguette@a... wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
As someone
> already highly familiar with all of those films, I tend to share
your regret
> that those minutes weren't taken up with footage from "The Other
Side of the Wind" or "The Magic Show"
Peter didn't make it for us.
On the other hand, I believe PB's edit does
> ultimately contain more segments from the unfinished works than
earlier versions of
> the film.
And fewer shots of the moon etc etc as in the German version. And a
narration by someone who knows the subject.
I wasn't counting clips. It's a documentary, not a DVD. There will be
many DVDs.
27265
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:30am
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was:Jean Renoir - Pantheon or Fringe Benefit? lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> > So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe
> Benefits?
> I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's Pantheon
even
> though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1 English-
> language turkey.
This is where it all started, Bill, in your own words above. The
comparison with Rosselini came later. Personally, I didn't have any
problem with your describing The Exile in this manner if that is your
opinion--you saw it, no matter how many or few times--and this
prompted others as well as me to defend it.
Along with others, it was hard for me to understand comparing The
Exile with The Age of the Medicis later, as they seem like such
different historical films. Again, that's just our opinion--if they
equate for you for the comparison that's all you were saying. I
didn't look for that post just now but remember you equate each of the
other three Ophuls with one of the three Bergman-Rosselinis--it was
kind of interesting.
Just as a footnote, I may as well admit for those who were lucky
enough to see Cheech and Chong's The Corsican Brothers that I wrote
the voiceover narration. I got the job in post-production and so
learned just how many things can go wrong in post-production when
whoever is in charge (and it wasn't always the same person) cannot
make up their mind. The material was there for a much better film.
How this relates to The Exile is that I suggested Doug Fairbanks Jr.
to read my narration--he had done a straight The Corsican Brothers
early in the 40s so I thought he'd be the ideal choice with that
beautiful voice, and I wanted it read straight for counterpoint. But
they didn't even approach him, and had the thing read as if to say
"This is a comedy, just in case you didn't know."
So it was, truly, a turkey. And I don't mind if anyone says so.
Blake
27266
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:28am
Subject: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> > > So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe
> > Benefits?
>
> > I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's Pantheon
> even
> > though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1 English-
> > language turkey.
>
> This is where it all started, Bill, in your own words above.
Except that by judicious cutting my "point of comparison" seems to
refer to Kevin's question about Renoir, when it actually referred to
Rossellini. I was regreting that Sarris didn't write a long
Rossellini article in American Cinema like the one he wrote on
Renoir. Historically, because of the importance of the book, I
believe that would have made a difference.
I agree with Fred that we have to cut down what we're responding to,
but in this case it made me seem to be saying that Ophuls had no
business in the Pantheon.
As for my playful comparison of Medici to The Exile, it was just
that. I was suddenly struck by the parallel between Caught-Reckless
Moment-Letter-Exile and Europa-Voyage-Fear-Medici. My tendency to
give the nod to Rossellini in this case has to do with the
excessively high regard I have for Voyage in Italy and Age of the
Medici, not any tendency to denigrate Ophuls (except for The Exile,
which I recall being a turkey...)
Have you noticed how rarely Rossellini is talked about here? I
honestly suspect that that has something to do with Sarris's
omission - even though he had him in Fringe Benefits. He is one of
the most important filmmakers who ever lived because of his constant
experimentation and his constant engagement with the world around
him, not to mention his influence on disciples like Truffaut and
Rohmer and Godard. Modern cinema could be said to begin with him as
much as with Welles, but from where I sit, he's vitually off the
radar screen, despite Tag's brilliant book. I think that's a shame.
27267
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:29am
Subject: Re: Question for Joseph K. (was Orson Welles: One Man Band) joka13us
>Didn't Stefan show his color restoration of the F for Fake trailer at
>your house over a year ago?
As I recall, yes.
--
- Joe Kaufman
27268
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:19am
Subject: Re: Re: Joseph Pevney (Was;Hugo Haas not Charles (was: No Name on... nzkpzq
In a message dated 05-05-18 00:37:39 EDT, you write:
<< "Man of a Thousand Faces" is Pevney's best-known and
best-regarded film. It's pretty good--very nice visually and very
well acted, especially by Cagney as Chaney and Pevney favorite Celia
Lovsky as his mother >>
Celia Lovsky had a career high point in the Star Trek episode "Amok Time",
one of Pevney's 14 episodes. She plays Vulcan political leader T'Pau. Saw this
when I was 14 and have never forgotten it. (Was one of the original Trekkies.)
Lovsky was married to Peter Lorre in the 1930's, when both were stage actors
in Germany. She later played nice bits in Fritz Lang films: The Blue Gardenia,
While the City Sleeps.
I'm sure that Star Trek is widely available. Keep meaning to go back &
re-watch it. Am a bit scared I might destroy beloved memories, though!
Mike Grost
27269
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:23am
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
> wrote:
>
> > > --- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, LiLiPUT1@a... wrote:
> > > > So why exactly is Jean Renoir in The Pantheon and not Fringe
> > > Benefits?
> >
> > > I guess the point of comparison should be Ophuls, who's
Pantheon
> > even
> > > though he only made 3 English-language masterpieces and 1
English-
> > > language turkey.
> >
> > This is where it all started, Bill, in your own words above.
>
> Except that by judicious cutting my "point of comparison" seems to
> refer to Kevin's question about Renoir, when it actually referred
to
> Rossellini. I was regreting that Sarris didn't write a long
> Rossellini article in American Cinema like the one he wrote on
> Renoir. Historically, because of the importance of the book, I
> believe that would have made a difference.
One more time, Bill. The "point of comparison" in the one I quoted
above WAS with Renoir in this one, your post 26852 dated 5/10. The
rest of it was entirely about Renoir's American films, a very nicely
stated case for all five in fact. If I had left it all, this would
have been evident. The comparison of Ophuls/Rosselini was your post
26951, 5/11--here is the entire post:
>So do we promote Rossellini to the Pantheon? Three (sort of)
English-language melodramas that stack up nicely with Ophuls':
Fear/Reckless Moment; Europa 51/Caught; Strangers/Letter from an
Unknown Woman. And one (three, depending on how you count) costumer,
The Age of the Medici, that beats the socks off The Exile!
> I agree with Fred that we have to cut down what we're responding
to,
> but in this case it made me seem to be saying that Ophuls had no
> business in the Pantheon.
I was trying to cut it down per Fred's requests to us but don't
think this made it sound like you were cutting Ophuls out of the
Pantheon. Interestingly, in this new one the Bergman-Rosselinis
and the Ophuls are not paralleled in exactly the same way, below:
>
> As for my playful comparison of Medici to The Exile, it was just
> that. I was suddenly struck by the parallel between Caught-
Reckless Moment-Letter-Exile and Europa-Voyage-Fear-Medici. My
tendency to
> give the nod to Rossellini in this case has to do with the
> excessively high regard I have for Voyage in Italy and Age of the
> Medici, not any tendency to denigrate Ophuls (except for The
Exile,
> which I recall being a turkey...)
Hope this clarifies the sequence of this. The Ophuls/Renoir
comparison and the Ophuls/Rosselini one were separate. That's all.
What you said in either is fine. What's more, I share your regard
for Voyage in Italy though couldn't choose it over Letter from an
Unknown Woman (not to be wishy-washy, but I'd hate to have to live
on the difference).
For me the thing of greatest value you said was in this last one--
>
> Have you noticed how rarely Rossellini is talked about here? I
> honestly suspect that that has something to do with Sarris's
> omission - even though he had him in Fringe Benefits. He is one of
> the most important filmmakers who ever lived because of his
constant
> experimentation and his constant engagement with the world around
> him, not to mention his influence on disciples like Truffaut and
> Rohmer and Godard. Modern cinema could be said to begin with him
as
> much as with Welles, but from where I sit, he's vitually off the
> radar screen, despite Tag's brilliant book. I think that's a shame.
Indisputable. I hope he will be discussed more too. And I wish he
were easier to see. I'm getting pretty close now but it's taken
years. Just caught sublime "India" a few years ago--one time only.
And one round of those historical ones was not enough for me (saw a
few of them twice but within a few years time). Where are they for
those of us that want to get back to them?
Of course, Bill, I still remember that "Acts of the Apostles"
screening here as a really special one, and know you do too.
Blake
27270
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:46am
Subject: Re: Question for Joseph K. (was Orson Welles: One Man Band) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Kaufman wrote:
> >Didn't Stefan show his color restoration of the F for Fake trailer at
> >your house over a year ago?
>
> As I recall, yes.
> --
>
> - Joe Kaufman
I wonder why it's not on the DVD then. It wasn't made to be shown in
b&w - that's just the only copy that survived. And Stefan went back to
the negative and meticulously followed the b&w copy to put together a
color version. Sounds like there was a communication snafu. Or purist
concerns. Again, for Joseph K, was he using alternate takes in some
cases? To my untrained eye it looked like a good match.
27271
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:58am
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> One more time, Bill. The "point of comparison" in the one I quoted
> above WAS with Renoir The comparison of Ophuls/Rosselini was your
post 26951, 5/11
My mistake.
, in this new one the Bergman-Rosselinis
> and the Ophuls are not paralleled in exactly the same way, below:
I guess the parallels would be Fear/Reckless Moment (pretty close),
Europa/Caught (already starting to get dubious: Fear is closer) and
Voyage/Letter (strictly on the basis of quality). But it is
interesting that they both did those kinds of films, with the self-
referential implications (director as torturer) in Caught and Fear.
from where I sit, he's virtually off the
> > radar screen, despite Tag's brilliant book. I think that's a
shame.
> Indisputable. I hope he will be discussed more too. And I wish he
> were easier to see.
Cinefile has a fair selection, which are videocassettes that are in
distribution, in many cases, thanks to Tag. But programmers need to
get into the act, and they don't. This is not so much the case in
Europe. I was blessed to be in NY when MOMA and Marty Rubin screened
all the available tv films, multiple times, if memory serves.
Augustine of Hippo in 35 is not something one forgets.
>
> Of course, Bill, I still remember that "Acts of the Apostles"
> screening here as a really special one
Also thanks to Tag, who sent us the print. As I recall there was a
weird explosive event with a power-pole outside in mid-screening, as
if a thunderbolt had been hurled.
27272
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:21am
Subject: Orson Welles on TCM Tonight nzkpzq
TCM (US Cable TV) will show five Welles films tonight, Wednesday at 8 PM:
Othello
Mr. Arkadin
The Immortal Story
F For Fake
The Trial
Before everybody writes in - have no idea what versions these are of Mr.
Arkadin, Othello, etc. In fact, will not really know even after watching them - do
not have a Black Belt in Welles versions scholarship.
Still, this is a heapin helpin of Orson.
Mike Grost
27273
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
> Have you noticed how rarely Rossellini is talked about here? I
> honestly suspect that that has something to do with Sarris's
> omission - even though he had him in Fringe Benefits. He is one of
> the most important filmmakers who ever lived because of his constant
> experimentation and his constant engagement with the world around
> him, not to mention his influence on disciples like Truffaut and
> Rohmer and Godard. Modern cinema could be said to begin with him as
> much as with Welles, but from where I sit, he's vitually off the
> radar screen, despite Tag's brilliant book. I think that's a shame.
I disagree. First, the frequency of mentions of any given director
on the List is not a reflection of his status in the members' minds.
Second, I seem to recall that every time he has been mentioned here
(and there were quite a few such mentions) it was always with
admiration sometimes bordering on idolatry. Finally I find the notion
that RR is neglected on a_film_by because Sarris didn't write a long
piece on him 40 years ago more than a bit strange...
JPC
27274
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
>
> Indisputable. I hope he will be discussed more too. And I wish he
> were easier to see. I'm getting pretty close now but it's taken
> years. Just caught sublime "India" a few years ago--one time only.
> And one round of those historical ones was not enough for me (saw a
> few of them twice but within a few years time). Where are they for
> those of us that want to get back to them?
>
> Of course, Bill, I still remember that "Acts of the Apostles"
> screening here as a really special one, and know you do too.
>
> Blake
The difficulty of seeing the films may have something to do with
the relative "neglect" of RR in this group. (But Keaton is not
often discussed either, although all of his silent work is
available).
Thank to Tag I was lucky enough to see practically everything RR
ever did,while I translated Tag's book. I have everything on tape,
some on DVD.I must say I'm not as much of an unconditional fan of RR
as I should be, but I'll wisely refrain to elaborate.
JPC
27275
From: samadams@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:26pm
Subject: re: Kung Fu Hustle arglebargle31
Wow! I take a day off (read: work) and 100 messages pile up. No
wonder Fred runs out of space.
Just a quick add to the KFH discussion -- I've only seen Chow's last
two films, but KFH is my favorite by a distance over Shaolin Soccer
because of the deftness with which it addresses the issue of cultural
mixing. To me, Chow shows the skill of a true pop artist in the way
he collages eastern and western movie traditions and references,
implicitly championing the termites of Pig Sty Alley over the white
elephants of the Axe Gang (I wish I could hear the difference between
Mandarin and Cantonese well enough to chart which is spoken when,
since I have been told by a Cantonese speaker that it figures
mightily into the dynamic). To me the most delirious, head-exploding
moment is (SPOILER, but only of a joke), when a dying character
quotes Sean Connery's last words from the Untouchables -- in English,
yet -- and the landlady ruptures the mood by rearing back and yelling
at him, "Why don't you speak Chinese!" That Chow can at once attack
American cultural domination and offer a profoundly moving tribute to
TOP HAT spins my head in circles in the best possible way.
In a way, the only problem with KFH is that it's almost too likeable
-- it's so easy to be bowled over by the movie's sheer energy that a
lot of the reviews seem to have missed out on the (fairly obvious)
subtext. I'm sure all the comparisons to Warner Bros cartoons are
meant in good faith, but to me that's only a valid comparison if
you're talking about DUCK AMUCK or WHAT'S OPERA, DOC? If it's not
exactly subversive, I do think there's something fairly radical going
on under the movie's (very appealing) surface.
Sam
27276
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
> Thank to Tag I was lucky enough to see practically everything RR
> ever did,while I translated Tag's book. I have everything on tape,
> some on DVD.I must say I'm not as much of an unconditional fan of RR
> as I should be, but I'll wisely refrain to elaborate.
>
> JPC
In case anybody paid attention to the above sentence, what I meant
was "I'll refrain from elaborating." JPC
27277
From: Dan Sallitt
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:03pm
Subject: Wenders (Was: Twentynine palms) sallitt1
>> For me, this links the film to that '80s movement
>> that includes
>> Wenders' (rather forgotten) THE STATE OF THINGS,
>
> Not forgotten by me! I think it's Wenders' best film.
I might give ALICE IN THE CITIES the edge, but THE STATE OF THINGS would
be a strong second. It also turned out to be the end of Wenders' good
period for me: I feel as if something bad happened to him after that,
some weird shift of sensibility. Except for the TOKYO-GA documentary, I
don't think I've liked anything by Wenders since 1982. - Dan
27278
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:15pm
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) joe_mcelhaney
Blake's insights into how the theme of exile may be read
allegorically in relation to Ophuls's own career up to the point of
having shot The Exile makes me want to see the film again. I wonder
to what extent it may be the ultimate cinematic statement from that
period about the nature of exile (and the struggle to overcome that
status) as it was experienced by of so many of the German/Eastern
European/Jewish refugees during the thirties and forties. But don't
quote me. Just fumbling around here.
I also wonder to what extent the film not having a stronger
reputation may be traceable to two sources. One is that it lacks the
strong Viennese/fin de siecle (pardon the absence of an accent)
sensibility of so many of his best-known films, from Liebelei to
Madame de..., a sensibility which has been central to auteurist
appproaches to Ophuls and to the creation of the Ophuls mythology.
The other is that it belongs to a somewhat unfashionable genre.
While the reputations of Caught and The Reckless Moment have risen
over the years, to a large extent as a result of the increased
attention being paid to melodrama and the woman's film, The Exile
belongs to an adventure romance/swashbuckling genre which remains
comparatively neglected, at least in academic/auteurist circles. (As
a Curtiz fan, this is certainly not a genre I look down on!) This,
combined with the limited distribution of the film, has given the
misleading impression that it was little more than an assignment for
Ophuls.
Blake, I didn't realize that Ophuls was a possibility for Ride the
Pink Horse. The film opens with a fairly complicated, almost
Ophulsian long take tracking shot, as Robert Montgomery gets off of a
bus, goes into a bus station, walks around, does some business or
other, and then walks back out into the sunlight again. It lasts
several minutes, as I recall. But how many of you knew that Ophuls
was interested in directing the screen version of Guys and Dolls,
after having seen it onstage in London in 1954? Ophuls told John
Houseman that he (Ophuls) had all kinds of interesting ideas for how
it could work on film. I would love to know what those ideas were...
27279
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:16pm
Subject: Re: Wenders (Was: Twentynine palms) cellar47
--- Dan Sallitt wrote:
>
> I might give ALICE IN THE CITIES the edge, but THE
> STATE OF THINGS would
> be a strong second. It also turned out to be the
> end of Wenders' good
> period for me: I feel as if something bad happened
> to him after that,
> some weird shift of sensibility. Except for the
> TOKYO-GA documentary, I
> don't think I've liked anything by Wenders since
> 1982.
Wel I quite love "Wings of Desire." "Paris Texas"
isn't bad either. But on the whole his recent work has
been disappointingly slack.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
27280
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:18pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "jpcoursodon"
wrote:
I'll wisely refrain to elaborate.
> >
> > JPC
>
> In case anybody paid attention to the above sentence, what I meant
> was "I'll refrain from elaborating."
Your English is better than mine, JP.
Actually, I was quite serious about my "more than strange" suggestion
that many older AMERICAN film buffs, and the people to whom their
wisdom was passed on, may have neglected Rossellini because they didn't
get the same dose of indoctrination they got from Sarris on Renoir or
Ophuls or even Sirk. Which hasn't kept some of us (especially ex-NYers)
from seeing the films and admiring them - I'm speaking of a cultural,
ie statistical, phenomenon. (The case of Keaton not being discussed on
a_f_by is not a convincing example: We don't talk about Chaplin, Laurel
and Hardy, Harold Lloyd or W.C. Fields, either - no sensa yuma.)
The non-availability of the films is a more persusive reason for this
shocking neglect, but I could argue that prints become available when
the experts - auteurists involved in programming and distribution -
want them to. I'm not really aware of other reasons why films as
central to the history of cinema as Viva Italia (of which Dan just sent
me a beautiful FRENCH DVD), Germany Year Zero, India, Europa 51, Era
Notte a Roma, Vanina Vanini, Blaise Pascal, Augustine of Hippo and The
Age of the Medici simply are not available to be seen, except for an
occasional "release" by Tag, whereas all but a few minor titles by
Renoir are. (And don't start talking to me about Charleston just to
give me an argument.)
Lastly, my humble apology for omitting a Bergman-Rossellini film from
my list, the most famous: Stromboli, which is, I believe, English-
language too. The fact that I have yet to be called on this phenomenal
boner, whereas I've been roasted alive for casually refering to The
Exile a "turkey," sort of proves my point.
I might add, to be a bit provocative, that much of this thread owes its
existence to someone - David? - pointing out that Sarris's little book
played a key role in reviving the reputation of Ophuls and of moving-
camera-long-take direction in the face of prevailing theoretical biases
in favor of montage directing, specifically Eisenstein, and social
consciousness, specifically Eisenstein - but that description also
covers Rossellini, a favorite director of Bosley Crowther, the
(deservedly) hated critic who reigned at the NY Times when The American
Cinema was published.
Despite Blake's bitterness that pre-war Ophuls is largely unavailable,
postwar Ophuls is certainly not hard to come by, and that may reflect a
bias on the part of auteurists - ie Sarris disciples - in favor of
certain directors and, most important, a certain kind of cinema -
actress-centered, long-take-moving-camera, romantic, melodramatic -
that Sarris actively championed in the teeth of all those old fuddy
duddies who, like RR, believed that cinema has a social mission apart
from feminism. (Sarris's infamous "less than" article on Mankiewicz,
which never seems to get brought up when his omissions are being
itemized, despite strong support for Mankiewicz on the list, gives JM
points at the end for being good with actressses. His subsequent
cluelessness during a period of intense American social activism is
another example of what I'm talking about.) And I'd wager that the
Rossellinis most people here HAVE seen star a certain Swede - and not
just because they were made in English.
Anyway, your own curious silence on the subject after being immersed in
it because of your translation is now explained: you're not an
unconditional admirer. But at least you've been able to see the films
and make up your own mind. I wonder how many people here, especially
the younger ones, don't even know what we're talking about!
27281
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:38pm
Subject: Re: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) cellar47
--- hotlove666 wrote:
>
> Lastly, my humble apology for omitting a
> Bergman-Rossellini film from
> my list, the most famous: Stromboli, which is, I
> believe, English-
> language too.
I hope I'm not the only member of the list who's aware
of "Volcano" -- Anna Magnani's rival production.
As is probably known, Rossellini was in the midst of
an affair with Magnani when he met Bergman. In point
of fact he had written a first draft of the script
that became "Stromboli" specifically for Maganani.
Easy to imagine her rage when she was tossed aside for
another woman. But being the artist that she was,
Magnani made positive use of her scorn. She set up a
rival production,"Volcano," that was filmed AT THE
SAME TIME as "Stromboli" on an adjoining island.
As dusk fell each evening she would go to the highest
point on the island and rain curses down on the island
where Rossellini and Bergman were filming -- and
loving.
The director of "Volcano" was William Dieterle, the
script was by Erskine Caldwell and her co-stars were
Rossano Brazzi and Geraldine Fitzgerald.
Roughly the same story, "Volcano" (which isn't at all
bad) was finished in advance of "Stromboli."
And now the final indignity --
At the Italian premier of her film, La Magnani had
just ascended to podium to take questions from the
press when suddenly news came that emptied the room
and had all the reporters rushing to the nearest phone
--
Ingrid Bergman had just given birtth to her "love
child" -- Robertino.
For once La Magnani found herself in a situation she
couldn't "top."
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html
27282
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666"
wrote:
> Lastly, my humble apology for omitting a Bergman-Rossellini film
from
> my list, the most famous: Stromboli, which is, I believe, English-
> language too. The fact that I have yet to be called on this
phenomenal
> boner, whereas I've been roasted alive for casually refering to
The
> Exile a "turkey," sort of proves my point.
>
I noticed Stromboli wasn't included--I thought you just ran out of
Ophuls movies to parallel and didn't have another slot. Stromboli
is one of my favorite RR movies--I've had a chance to see it more
than say Augustine of Hippo (equally great) but never get tired of
it. And Bill, you are right, that IS the modern cinema. It's not
just that documentary and fiction merge in his vision--it's this
concern with states of soul, which goes back in cinema to the
beginning but always tending to be subtext, and he's the one who
pushed out there. Nor is it unrelated in my mind to those
historicals--what is it, finally, that we are drawn to those movies
to discover (Medicis, Augustine, Pascal)? There is always something
deeply revelatory, beyond history, in my experience of them.
Still, don't forget that what you said before about constant
experimentation and evolution also applies to Renoir, beginning
earlier for him and ending earlier too. He also went through many
phases--always questioning ideas about cinema that had worked well
in films he'd already made, in favor of some different approach to
the next one. Maybe this is why he, as well as Rosselini, had
so much effect on the New Wave as a kind of inspiration, and not
simply, as with a Hitchcock or Lang, as teachers of mise-en-scene.
in favor of
> certain directors and, most important, a certain kind of cinema -
> actress-centered, long-take-moving-camera, romantic, melodramatic -
another example of what I'm talking about.) And I'd wager that the
> Rossellinis most people here HAVE seen star a certain Swede - and
not
> just because they were made in English.
>
I cut a little more of that than I meant to--sorry. Bill, you are
the one who has so eloquently defended Sarris recently, so what's
the problem? He does like those things in his book (Mankiewicz did
get no other points from him other than on actresses, as you mention)
and I'm guessing he'd still say he does. But this did a lot of good,
remember? It's really true that the female face instead of the
Odessa Steps just didn't have a chance with older critics, and if
attached to melodrama...forget it. But I'd wager, contrary to you,
that at least most people here have seen whatever Rosselinis they
could, more than just Ingrid Bergman ones, and probably see those
as part of the whole body of work, even if--as with you too, I'm
sure--that little group includes a few favorites of his movies.
> Anyway, your own curious silence on the subject after being
immersed in
> it because of your translation is now explained: you're not an
> unconditional admirer. But at least you've been able to see the
films
> and make up your own mind. I wonder how many people here,
especially
> the younger ones, don't even know what we're talking about!
I was interested that JPC translated Tag's book--didn't know that--
and even more that he was not an unconditional admirer of RR. And
personally, I'd be interested to know your reservations, JPC.
I don't believe that any filmmaker should be beyond criticism.
Blake
27283
From: "Matt Armstrong"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:09pm
Subject: Bad and the Beautiful matt_c_armst...
For those in the LA area, there's an outdoor screening of "The Bad
and the Beautiful" this Saturday night...
Cinespia presents our 2005 season: every saturday, all summer long!
THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL
Directed by Vincente Minelli
Saturday, May 21th
NEW TIME: GATES AT 7:00PM FILM AT 8:30PM
Hollywood Forever Cemetery
6000 Santa Monica Boulevard at Gower
No reservation necessary.
$10 Tickets available at gate.
The greatest movie ever made about making movies! Kirk Douglas stars
as a cut-throat producer clawing his way to the top of the Hollywood
food chain, and Lana Turner as the gorgeous but struggling actress
who helps him get there. Sophisticated and funny, this is the
seminal film about the seamy underbelly of the studio system.
Superbly directed by one of Hollywoods greatest, Douglas and Turner
give two of the best performances of their careers. Gloria Grahame
won a supporting actress Oscar for her portrayal of a steamy
southern belle. Bring blankets, picnic dinner and cocktails for
this special screening below and above the stars. DJs John Wyatt and
ChrisCurtis spin before and after the screening. Pre-show imagery
provided by www.filmartgallery.com
27284
From: Joseph Kaufman
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:41pm
Subject: Re: Question for Joseph K. (was Orson Welles: One Man Band) joka13us
>Again, for Joseph K, was he using alternate takes in some
>cases? To my untrained eye it looked like a good match.
It looked like the same version to me....and I'm sure Stefan would
have told us if he was using alternate takes.
Also, either he or Gary G. showed the color trailer at the Egyptian, perhaps?
--
- Joe Kaufman
27285
From: "Blake Lucas"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:24pm
Subject: Re: The Exile - No Turkey (Was: Rosselini/Ophuls Costume) lukethedealer12
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney" >
> Blake, I didn't realize that Ophuls was a possibility for Ride the
> Pink Horse. The film opens with a fairly complicated, almost
> Ophulsian long take tracking shot, as Robert Montgomery gets off
of a
> bus, goes into a bus station, walks around, does some business or
> other, and then walks back out into the sunlight again. It lasts
> several minutes, as I recall.
I wish I knew more details about Ride the Pink Horse. I don't know
how involved he became, if he prepared it at all, or whether he shot
anything (one could have that impression, as I also recall). He was
attached to the project at some point, or was at least supposed to
be. I know Robert Siodmak was trying to help him get a picture. I
assume all of this is in a book about Ophuls' American period,
devoted entirely to it. Someone showed me this, I really wanted to
read it, then went out looking for it soon after and could never
find it. Someone in the group probably knows what I'm talking about.
27286
From: "joe_mcelhaney"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:07pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) joe_mcelhaney
I'm not one of the youngest members of this group (some of whom are
quite young…ouch!) but I'm not one of the oldest either. And I can
only say that Bill's analysis of the Sarris/Ophuls/Rossellini
situation does not quite jibe with my own experience in film studies,
which roughly begins in the late seventies and early eighties.
First, in terms of critics, while I admired Sarris and The American
Cinema I can't say that that book had a major impact on me, forever
marking how I would look at the cinema. With its year by year
rankings from the most interesting films listed at the top to the
most marginal one listed at the bottom, its italicized titles for
the "major" works of a given director, its categorizing of filmmakers
based on their alleged qualities, The American Cinema always struck
me as being, for all of its insights, a rather lightweight text.
That was the source of its charm and usefulness: You could so often
build upon it or work against it in some way. This may be a
generational problem, I don't know, since I didn't read the book
until well over a dozen years after it came out. But there was no
particular shock in reading it, no need to walk around with it in my
pocket at all times. There were so many other figures I was also
reading then and was far more impressed by: Bazin, Godard, Robin
Wood, Geoffrey Nowell-Smith, V.F. Perkins, Thomas Elsaesser, etc.
(The rest of the Cahiers crowd I don't think I read until a bit
later, in translation, except for a couple of Rivette things in the
Rosenbaum book.) I certainly love the type of mise-en-scene cinema
which Ophuls's films exemplified and which Sarris eloquently
defended. But I certainly never took this as some kind of master
plan for an appreciation of the cinema. It was simply one option of
many.
In terms of Rossellini, he was always a central figure to my
generation of academics and cinephiles. And for the record, I saw
more Rossellini films in classes during my student days than I saw
Ophuls. In fact, I don't think I EVER saw an Ophuls film in a class
at NYU. Access to many of the Rossellini films was a problem even
then and you always had to keep a sharp eye out for screenings of
some of them, especially the historical films. While I was at NYU,
Roger McNiven arranged for a video of India, courtesy of Pacific Film
Archive, to be shown there and he was also attempting,
unsuccessfully, to get them to send Europa '51 – at the time almost
impossible to see. Whether this rarity of the films is related to
programmers and cinephiles not clambering loudly enough for prints to
be struck, I don't know. Rossellini's own indifference to the issue
of copyright may also be a problem in that the rights to some of them
are scattered or uncertain. Germany, Year Zero, by the way, is
available on a Region 1 DVD in a nice print, albeit the dubbed
Italian one.
All I am getting at here, in my long-winded way, is that I simply do
not see Rossellini as a neglected figure at all, even if many of his
films deserve to be more widely seen. The literature on him is
fairly abundant. Of course there should be more but some of the
posts I've read lately give the impression that all that's out there
is Tag Gallagher's biography! But the Rossellini literature I think
of first is what I read in my student days and which still is for me
the strongest and most interesting material on it: Bazin, Rivette,
Godard, Rohmer, Guarner. The notion that Rossellini IS (along with
Welles) modern cinema is the line Bazin/Cahiers and, later, Deleuze
put out – although it might be more accurate to say that his films
represent a certain specific post-war version of the modern.
All KINDS of canonical filmmakers are seldom discussed here. The
names that mainly turn up, I think, are either new filmmakers or
filmmakers like Edwards, Minnelli, Jerry Lewis, major figures but
around whom the critical dust has not quite settled so that the more
casual form of the internet post becomes an appropriate forum for
hammering out some issues. When you sit down to write about
Rossellini or Mizoguchi suddenly these posts seem too small.
27287
From: MG4273@...
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:33pm
Subject: Lutz Bacher: Max Ophuls in the Hollywood Studios nzkpzq
Lutz Bacher (1941 - ) wrote "The Mobile Mise-En-Scène: A Critical Analysis of
the Theory and Practice of Long-Take Camera Movement in the Narrative Film"
(1978) and "Max Ophuls in the Hollywood Studios" (1996).
Both of these books are packed with info.
Mike Grost
27288
From: BklynMagus
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:36pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) cinebklyn
Joe writes:
Access to many of the Rossellini films was a
problem even then and you always had to
keep a sharp eye out for screenings of some
of them, especially the historical films.
As I pursued my own haphazard film education, I
can add my voice that finding Rossellini movies
in NYC in the late 70's/early 80's was chancy at
best.
I remember going up to the Thalia when they
had "Fear," the only time I have been able to see
it. Others films would make an appearance and
then disappear for months. Fellini, DeSica and
Antonioni were always played, but I was always
frustrated that I could not see more Rossellini.
I know my hesitation to post anything on Rossellini
stems from the fact that I have had such infrequent
access to his films.
Brian
27289
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) cellar47
--- BklynMagus wrote:
>
> I know my hesitation to post anything on Rossellini
> stems from the fact that I have had such infrequent
> access to his films.
>
Well if you should gain access to "Europe '51,"
"Voyage to Italy," or "La Prise de pouvoir par Louis
XIV," grab 'em. They're essential Rossellini, IMO.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
27290
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
>
> I hope I'm not the only member of the list who's aware
> of "Volcano" -- Anna Magnani's rival production.
I'd love to see it. RKO distributed Stromboli in the US, and Hughes
reportedly used posters proclaiming a film of blazing passion
illustrated by a volcano erupting.
27291
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jess_l_amortell
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney" wrote:
> I can
> only say that Bill's analysis of the Sarris/Ophuls/Rossellini
> situation does not quite jibe with my own experience in film studies
Although it hadn't quite occurred to me the other day, I wonder if it should also be pointed out (not necessarily that anyone has suggested otherwise) that most of the historical films that have been invoked to demonstrate Sarris' short-sightedness about Rossellini hadn't even been made at the time "The American Cinema" was published. He had made The Rise of Louis XIV.
Arguably at the time Ophuls'
reputation (and particularly for his American work -- of which Rossellini made none) was far more in need of enhancement. Isn't it in Before the Revolution that a character actually says something like "Can one live without Rossellini?" I don't know if there are any films of the period in which people talked about Ophuls. (Or, if there are, I know I'll learn of them now!)
27292
From: "Noel Bjorndahl & Carole Dent"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) noelbjorndahl
Peter Brunette's text on Rossellini is essential reading, too, among those others you cited.
Noel----- Original Message -----
From: joe_mcelhaney
To: a_film_by@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:07 AM
Subject: [a_film_by] Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey )
I'm not one of the youngest members of this group (some of whom are
quite young.ouch!) but I'm not one of the oldest either. And I can
only say that Bill's analysis of the Sarris/Ophuls/Rossellini
situation does not quite jibe with my own experience in film studies,
which roughly begins in the late seventies and early eighties.
First, in terms of critics, while I admired Sarris and The American
Cinema I can't say that that book had a major impact on me, forever
marking how I would look at the cinema. With its year by year
rankings from the most interesting films listed at the top to the
most marginal one listed at the bottom, its italicized titles for
the "major" works of a given director, its categorizing of filmmakers
based on their alleged qualities, The American Cinema always struck
me as being, for all of its insights, a rather lightweight text.
That was the source of its charm and usefulness: You could so often
build upon it or work against it in some way. This may be a
generational problem, I don't know, since I didn't read the book
until well over a dozen years after it came out. But there was no
particular shock in reading it, no need to walk around with it in my
pocket at all times. There were so many other figures I was also
reading then and was far more impressed by: Bazin, Godard, Robin
Wood, Geoffrey Nowell-Smith, V.F. Perkins, Thomas Elsaesser, etc.
(The rest of the Cahiers crowd I don't think I read until a bit
later, in translation, except for a couple of Rivette things in the
Rosenbaum book.) I certainly love the type of mise-en-scene cinema
which Ophuls's films exemplified and which Sarris eloquently
defended. But I certainly never took this as some kind of master
plan for an appreciation of the cinema. It was simply one option of
many.
In terms of Rossellini, he was always a central figure to my
generation of academics and cinephiles. And for the record, I saw
more Rossellini films in classes during my student days than I saw
Ophuls. In fact, I don't think I EVER saw an Ophuls film in a class
at NYU. Access to many of the Rossellini films was a problem even
then and you always had to keep a sharp eye out for screenings of
some of them, especially the historical films. While I was at NYU,
Roger McNiven arranged for a video of India, courtesy of Pacific Film
Archive, to be shown there and he was also attempting,
unsuccessfully, to get them to send Europa '51 - at the time almost
impossible to see. Whether this rarity of the films is related to
programmers and cinephiles not clambering loudly enough for prints to
be struck, I don't know. Rossellini's own indifference to the issue
of copyright may also be a problem in that the rights to some of them
are scattered or uncertain. Germany, Year Zero, by the way, is
available on a Region 1 DVD in a nice print, albeit the dubbed
Italian one.
All I am getting at here, in my long-winded way, is that I simply do
not see Rossellini as a neglected figure at all, even if many of his
films deserve to be more widely seen. The literature on him is
fairly abundant. Of course there should be more but some of the
posts I've read lately give the impression that all that's out there
is Tag Gallagher's biography! But the Rossellini literature I think
of first is what I read in my student days and which still is for me
the strongest and most interesting material on it: Bazin, Rivette,
Godard, Rohmer, Guarner. The notion that Rossellini IS (along with
Welles) modern cinema is the line Bazin/Cahiers and, later, Deleuze
put out - although it might be more accurate to say that his films
represent a certain specific post-war version of the modern.
All KINDS of canonical filmmakers are seldom discussed here. The
names that mainly turn up, I think, are either new filmmakers or
filmmakers like Edwards, Minnelli, Jerry Lewis, major figures but
around whom the critical dust has not quite settled so that the more
casual form of the internet post becomes an appropriate forum for
hammering out some issues. When you sit down to write about
Rossellini or Mizoguchi suddenly these posts seem too small.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/a_film_by/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
a_film_by-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005
----------
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
27293
From: "jpcoursodon"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:09pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jpcoursodon
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "hotlove666" wrote:
>
> Anyway, your own curious silence on the subject after being immersed
in
> it because of your translation is now explained: you're not an
> unconditional admirer. But at least you've been able to see the
films
> and make up your own mind. I wonder how many people here, especially
> the younger ones, don't even know what we're talking about!
Bill, it is precisely because I was immersed for more than a year
in Rosselliniana and had countless discussions and arguments with the
supreme specialist we all admire that I refrain from discussing RR's
work. Tag managed to convince me that I am a near-total idiot and
thoroughly impervious to artistic greatness. By and large I feel most
of what I have read about RR is so much deeper and insightful than
anything I could say that I'd better keep quiet. There are many
threads on a_film_by that I read but don't participate in either
because I have no strong opinion one way or the other, or because I am
ignorant about the subject, or have nothing particularly interesting
to contribute. That's why I like to fall back on song lyrics!
Re: Sarris, I had no idea until I joined this group that he had had
such a tremendou influence on American cinephiles, to the point of
dictating the tastes of a whole generationm just by what he wrote or
didn't write about this or that director in his little book more than
thirty years ago. If it's really true as you claim, I feel it's a bit
scary.
JPC
27294
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:09pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "Blake Lucas"
wrote:
> I don't believe that any filmmaker should be beyond criticism.
Nor any cilm critic. Sarris's Romantic Revolution, which parallels what
Batshit Bloom was doing at the Yale English Dept. at the same time, did
indeed change the face of film criticism in the States, giving it a
woman's face, but at the expense of swinging the pendulum too far in
the other direction. There are three sentences on Rossellini in
American Cinema - that's less even than Bunuel, also in Fringe
Benefits. And I believe that had its effect. Imcidentally Tag
Gallagher, who is an important Sarris disciple and very much of
the "cherchez la femme" school himself, has done more to corect the
omission than anyone.
27295
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:13pm
Subject: Re: Question for Joseph K. (was Orson Welles: One Man Band) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Kaufman wrote:
> >Again, for Joseph K, was he using alternate takes in some
> >cases? To my untrained eye it looked like a good match.
>
> It looked like the same version to me....and I'm sure Stefan would
> have told us if he was using alternate takes.
>
> Also, either he or Gary G. showed the color trailer at the Egyptian,
perhaps?
I asked Stefan about the DVD - the Munich Archives (which I believe
acts as an agent for Oja, the owner, in these matters) and Criterion
couldn't come to terms, so they just used the b&w version from One Man
Band.
27296
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) cellar47
--- jess_l_amortell wrote:
Isn't it in Before the
> Revolution that a character actually says something
> like "Can one live without Rossellini?"
Correct!
I don't
> know if there are any films of the period in which
> people talked about Ophuls. (Or, if there are, I
> know I'll learn of them now!)
>
Jacques Demy's first feature "Lola" is dedicated to
Max Ophuls. It's right on the film's title credit.
Anna Karina's "Nana" in "Vivre sa Vie" is said in the
film's ads and trailer to "give her body and keep her
soul" -- as Ustinov's song goes in "Lola Montes."
Godard has also spoken very highly of "Le Plaisir"
which is based on DeMaupassant stores, and was the
inpsuration for Godard using two DeMaupassant stories
as the basis of "Masculin-Feminin"
For me the most importat Ophusl touchstone is
Powell-Pressburger as they shared Anton Walbrook (my
favorite actor!)
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
27297
From: "jess_l_amortell"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:21pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) jess_l_amortell
> > I hope I'm not the only member of the list who's aware
> > of "Volcano" -- Anna Magnani's rival production.
>
> I'd love to see it
There's a restoration around -- I didn't see it, but it was at Tribeca last year (bringing hopes of the inevitable double feature): http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org/2004/filmguide/country-detail.php?Range=GM&Category=ALL&Venue=ALL&Day=01&Month=05&Year=2004&Genre=ALL&FestProgram=
27298
From: David Ehrenstein
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) cellar47
--- jpcoursodon wrote:
>
> Re: Sarris, I had no idea until I joined this
> group that he had had
> such a tremendou influence on American cinephiles,
> to the point of
> dictating the tastes of a whole generationm just by
> what he wrote or
> didn't write about this or that director in his
> little book more than
> thirty years ago. If it's really true as you claim,
> I feel it's a bit
> scary.
>
Not as scary as you think, J-P. Sarris' The American
Cinema was a touchstone , but not in a binary way. As
soon as it was published discussions sprang up pro and
con. And even among the pros -- those who agreed with
his overall view -- there was dissent over specific
figures and how important they were or not.
This continues to this day, on this list, as many of
the auteurists here present agree that Sarris
shortchanged Mankiewicz, among other things.
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
27299
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:27pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mcelhaney"
wrote:
I can
> only say that Bill's analysis of the Sarris/Ophuls/Rossellini
> situation does not quite jibe with my own experience in film studies,
> which roughly begins in the late seventies and early eighties.
First, in terms of critics, while I admired Sarris and The American
> Cinema I can't say that that book had a major impact on me, forever
> marking how I would look at the cinema.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Joe. I suspected even as I was
fulminating that Rossellini may have been more honored in academia than
I credited - I just was never there myself. But those dates are
interesting, as well as the names you cite. Twelve years after that
book appeared, there were simply many more things one could read. There
were also film studies classes, a rarity before the 70s! NYU is one of
the oldest, and I'm very happy to hear that Roger McNiven taught there -
that must have been inspirational: As a private programmer, Roger
played a major role in my education. And as I noted, Rossellini and his
late films had been very prominent in the NY film scene (Film Comment,
for instance) in the 70s. That - and Rice University - are places where
his personal impact would have been considerable, to some extent
because of a guy you probably never met named John Hughes who became
RR's prophet in NY.
So all that seems to have combined to give you access and information
that the Sarris Generation as such didn't really have, although
Rossellini's most intelligent champions in NY included members of that
generation - Marty, Roger - and stretched back to Jonas Mekas, who had
Little Flowers on the loop at Anthology. So, no, he wasn't burried, but
I don't think Sarris did a lot to help the cause. (I'm sure Gary
Sherman's students out here got an earful, too - he named his son
Cosimo.) On the other hand, I don't recall Sarris championing the tv
movies when they were playing, although he includes and italicizes
Prise de pouvoir in the very brief RR item in The American Cinema.
Anyone else like Rossellini?
27300
From: "hotlove666"
Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:31pm
Subject: Re: Viva Rossellini! (Was: The Exile - No Turkey ) hotlove666
--- In a_film_by@yahoogroups.com, David Ehrenstein
wrote:
> For me the most importat Ophusl touchstone is
> Powell-Pressburger as they shared Anton Walbrook (my
> favorite actor!)
And of course ever frame of Kubrick's oeuvre starting with Paths of
Glory, if not earlier.
a_film_by Main Page
Home Film
Art
Other: (Rants, Obits)
Links About
Contact